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Christianity and Narnia The Allegory of the Chronicles of Narnia (Religion and Narnia Discussions)

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  #1  
Old 05-26-2005, 11:37 PM
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Default Scripture and Tradition

This seems to be a hot topic, so I've decide to create this thread. Please, don't be too rude.


Is Tradition as divinely inspired as the Bible???
discuss.
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Old 05-26-2005, 11:50 PM
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Simple answer:
No, unless the "tradition" was laid down by the Bible.

Sadly, I'm going out of town soon, so I won't get to discuss this much more......*sigh*
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Old 05-27-2005, 06:44 AM
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Interesting hypothesis.

The key word has to be "inspired," which is hotly debated by itself. I prefer the meaning that witnessing an action of God in our lives gives the inspiration for writing/telling/etc. about it.

The first thing that comes to mind is the liturgy. I can see the inspiration used in the use of liturgy. For example, the Invocation, the Forgiveness of Sins, and the reading of the Epistle and Gospel. This mainstream liturgy indeed has a long history that probably can find roots in Jewish worship, although I can admit that might be a reach.

Catholicism has a great deal of tradition, and most of them have been canonized by a pope. Protestantism has taken some of these traditions to task. One tradition that seems to have been canonized, if you will, is the Christmas story by all sects of Christianity. The story of Christmas is not true to the Biblical text, but because of centuries of perpetuation, most of us just accept the tradition to be truth. The fact that the tradition is not exactly true take away from being divinely inspired? I would say that it matters not one iota, because the message is what is divinely inspired: that today a Son is Born, the Messiah!

I guess in a nutshell, divinely inspired is not limited to just words in the Bible. That is limiting the immense glory of our God who is divinely inspiring our lives every second.
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Old 05-27-2005, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallis
I guess in a nutshell, divinely inspired is not limited to just words in the Bible. That is limiting the immense glory of our God who is divinely inspiring our lives every second.
I like that, because that means things like CON were divinely inspired, which I believe is true. That doesn't make it Scripture, but I DO think God was working through Lewis to set down a story which would enhance our knowledge of God.

Is this allowable?
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Old 05-27-2005, 11:11 AM
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Well, it is what Jesus promised! The Spirit of Truth will lead people into the truth about Jesus, His relationship with the Father, His Godhead, and the participation of the believer in the Life of hte Blessed Trinity! Therefore, Tradition is important because it shows the action of God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in Christ's Body on Earth, the Church. What the Holy Spirit will not do is contradict Himself. The nature of God, Man, and Sin, Incarnation, Redemption, and Resurrection, and the Gifts and Fruit of the Holy Spirit are not changed (i.e., sin remains sin), but the relationship between God and Man has changed because of Christ's saving work.

The Holy Spirit has led the Church into understanding in ever-increasing depth the nature of the events of Jesus Christ in God's actions in history. The Apostles and other disciples were clearly instructed in understanding the Scriptures (Old Testament) by Jesus Himself after His Resurrection. Some of that teaching is embodied in the New Testament Gospels, Epistles, and the Apocalypse (Revelation of St John). Some of it was passed down orally and some of it probably written in works lost to history. But we can clearly see the hand of the Holy Spirit working in the early Church in the NT books, the writings of the Fathers before and after the Council of Niceae, the works of the latter Fathers, and the life of the Church.

This action of the Holy Spirit is always to glorify Christ, to know Him, and to make Him known.
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Old 05-27-2005, 04:16 PM
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Both tradition and Scripture are important in a general way. But only Scripture is important for salvation.

For example, traditions do not answer our questions about faith and spirituality. Scripture does.

We cannot know how to achieve salvation through anything but divine revelation (if you believe it still exists) and Scripture. Traditions have lead many astray in the past, in terms of salvation. We cannot trust traditions to be divinely inspired in the same way that Scripture is divinely inspired.

There are two senses of "divine inspiration". The proper, or formal, sense is that God acted upon someone in order for them to do something. The informal sense is that someone was being inspired by the thought of God, in the same way that someone can be inspired by another person, and that inspiration caused them to do something. I believe Scripture was divinely inspired in the formal sense and tradition was/is inspired in the informal sense.

If anyone thinks that traditions are divinely inspired in the same way that Scripture is, I'd love to give you a few examples of traditions that COULD NOT have come directly from God.
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Last edited by Euphrates; 01-28-2011 at 08:45 AM.
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Old 05-27-2005, 04:25 PM
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Are there traditions in the Church right now that are we think are NOT inspired by God?

I go to a "seeker-friendly" church with no traditions whatsoever, and most people who are not wild about church are happy and comfortable here, but that never made me think traditions would be wrong or against God's plan.

And another question ...
Is EVERYTHING inspired, either by good or evil?
I think the Declaration of Independence was inspired by good, and maybe Pink Flloyd's "Another Brick in the Wall" was inspired by evil (just as a for instance, all you Pink Flloyd fans, I'm not saying it is/was). Could it be that every single work of art or literature has its inspiration either in God or the devil?
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Old 05-27-2005, 05:22 PM
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Here is another thing to consider: Without Tradition itself how could the Bible be inspired?
There had to be someone or some group through the working of the Holy Spirit that declared the Bible inspired and the only way that they could do this is if they had Traditions handed down to them that have their source in God Himself. It's not like the Bible created itself or is self-redeeming. That's like putting Scripture before God.
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Old 05-27-2005, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphrates
Not all Catholic churches believe the same thing.
responding to what he said in Jadis=Satan, i would like to say that all Catholic branchs as a whole believe in the exact same things. Individual people have different opinions, but as a whole, we believe in the Niceane Creed, and the head of our church is in Rome, ie the pope, and all of the docturants from Rome.

Now, in response to this question, how do we know that everything God wanted is in the bible? It never says that in the bible. Also, traditions do (or at least should) change as time goes on for various reasons. For example, the date when we celebrate Christ's birth changed when a pagan religion (can't remember which one) was assimulated into Catholisism. The tradition was changed.

We can't follow all of the traditions set forth in the early days of Christianity, because some of them don't make sence. But that doesn't mean we trash all of our traditions because they are in the bible. Where in the bible does it say to go to church on Christ's birthday? Where in the bible does it say to go to church on Easter to celebrate Christ rising from the dead? If we only follow what is in the bible, we can't do all of these things. What we have to do is look at new and old traditions, and meditate on whether these traditions make sence to carry forward.
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Old 05-27-2005, 07:01 PM
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There are differences within Catholicism.
http://www.3saints.com/orth_vs_cath.html

Quote:
the only way that they could do this is if they had Traditions handed down to them that eventually traced back to God Himself.
Traditions that trace back to God Himself? You're kidding right? If you really believe that the only way for the Bible to have been divinely inspired is through a bunch of traditions, you are underestimating God's power.

And what traditions, exactly, do you think could have led to the divine inspiration that went into the Bible? Tradition did not cause the divine inspiration of Scripture. Divine inspiration comes from God, that's what makes it "divine", not from traditions.

Quote:
Are there traditions in the Church right now that are we think are NOT inspired by God?
Yes. My girlfriend's family is 100% Catholic, and they have a statue of Mary that they circulate through the Pilipino homes in the area. When the statue moves into a new home, most of the Pilipinos in the area gather around it in the new home and pray to it so it will bless the home. After a while, it moves to a new home. This is called idolatry.

You know what else is idolatry, or might be idolatry (I'm gonna get into trouble for this): praying to "saints". Yes, a fundamental belief/practice in Catholicism might violate one of the Ten Commandments. Prayer is a form of worship. When you pray to anyone or anything, you are worshiping them/it. Do you really need to have a "graven image" for it to be idolatry? Maybe. But is worshiping dead people a tradition inspired by God? No.

Confessing your sins to a priest instead of to Christ is a tradition in the Church. I don't think this is divinely inspired. There are more.

Quote:
We can't follow all of the traditions set forth in the early days of Christianity, because some of them don't make sence.
Their traditions made sense to them, just like your traditions make sense to you. Would God divinely inspire a tradition that wouldn't make sense in the years to come?

Quote:
Where in the bible does it say to go to church on Christ's birthday? Where in the bible does it say to go to church on Easter to celebrate Christ rising from the dead? If we only follow what is in the bible, we can't do all of these things.
I'm totally not sure what you're talking about. No one is saying that we can only follow what's in the Bible. Seriously, there is no one attacking traditions as a whole. We all agree that they are good/important. But they are not important for salvation. That's the point.

Quote:
What we have to do is look at new and old traditions, and meditate on whether these traditions make sence to carry forward.
See, that's part of the problem. You can't solve everything by thinking/meditating about it. The difference between tradition and Scripture is that you have to think about which traditions make sense. Scripture, on the other hand, is divinely inspired as a whole and we don't abandon parts of Scripture simply because it may not make sense.

Someone please show me a tradition (not found in the Bible) that is important for salvation. And then we can focus the discussion.
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Last edited by Euphrates; 01-28-2011 at 08:45 AM.
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