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The Socratic Club A club that Lewis founded at Oxford. A forum devoted to general philosophical and spiritual discussion

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  #11  
Old 04-24-2008, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Darth Sparhawk View Post
Inkspot,
you know, I regularly visit meetings organized by a very interesting magazine, "Christianity and Culture". It's editor is a professor, who said that very often the result of arguments is an argument between deaf people. He means that when you say - you are wrong, the other side answers - no, you are wrong, and this is repeated again and again and again. Of course, we should have the right to say no, when we think that the other is wrong. But I think that French people said that it is the tone which makes the music - you can say that politely that we disagree with the other person.
Naturally. I am a moderator on this Forum, so I am all for politeness and civil discussion. What I was ruing in my previous post is the attitude that he is being rude because he disagrees with me! It seems to me, on this forum, that some folks who are unable to defend their views immediately say they are being picked on and others are being disrespectful, simply because others are asking them to produce logic, scripture, references or documentation for what they are saying.

This was my point: in these discussion forums, we give up the right to be offended if someone points out the leaks in our logic, and we commit to respond with (courtesy and) logic, scriptures, references, documentation, whatever is required -- not with a whiny-baby response such as, "Clearly no one here even listens to what I am saying, so I am leaving!"

Can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen?
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  #12  
Old 04-24-2008, 04:47 PM
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  #13  
Old 04-24-2008, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by inkspot View Post
Naturally. I am a moderator on this Forum, so I am all for politeness and civil discussion. What I was ruing in my previous post is the attitude that he is being rude because he disagrees with me! It seems to me, on this forum, that some folks who are unable to defend their views immediately say they are being picked on and others are being disrespectful, simply because others are asking them to produce logic, scripture, references or documentation for what they are saying.

This was my point: in these discussion forums, we give up the right to be offended if someone points out the leaks in our logic, and we commit to respond with (courtesy and) logic, scriptures, references, documentation, whatever is required -- not with a whiny-baby response such as, "Clearly no one here even listens to what I am saying, so I am leaving!"

Can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen?
Yes, unfortunately, this seems to be a problem on this forum. Some people take others way to personaly and gets really offended, or they lack the evidence to back up their statements, and therefor, they start slide of the real topic to rather scream out "OFFENSIVE!!" ... This has happened to me before, and being the popcorn-eating viking brute that I am, naturally I will get alittle tired of this (And mad. So I went to conquer Britain, but failed). there are a few things though that you might also consider as a defence toward the people who do this.

First of all. Look at the userbase. There's a whole bunch of young people here (including myself, staying young and beautiful forever) that naturaly has ALOT of opinions, just that they haven't really figured out yet WHY they have that opinion. I think most of us also know that the people who do have an argument (or discussion) should be, at best, the same maturity level (That's why me and Copperfox doesn't fit together. He's way to childish for me). Being of different ages really does have something to say.

Second ... The Dancing Lawn has a real bunch of topics. Some of those are REALLY touchy to some people. We have topics that includes politics, religion, ethics and moral. We also have a userbase that's not Christian, and a userbase that is. It's INCREDIBLE that we haven't heard the "OFFENSIVE" comments more then we have. If people has been to other forums than this one, we know that 99% of them are more messy and insulting then this one.

I tend to step down when I see that people gets insulted (even though I know for sure I didn't say anything insulting). A PM often solves things, and I absolutely HATE when people comes with a "Oh BTW. I'm leaving the forum!!!1!11!", trying desperatly to make you feel bad and go "Sorry, sorry!"

Overall I think the Dancing Lawn is a perfect example of how it SHOULD BE DONE according to discussion topics. There are still many things that has to be straightened out to just let the discussions flow, but my gosh how far we've come comparing to other forums!

(I'm in no way saying that I'm a perfect debater either. I fail regularly in holding a good debate with someone)
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  #14  
Old 04-24-2008, 06:54 PM
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Doffen, I think that BOTH of my wives, the one up in Heaven and the one down on Earth, would agree with you that I'm too childish. To which I would say, "And your point is--?"
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Old 04-24-2008, 08:09 PM
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A thought: one aggravator of this problem is moral relativism. If something can be 'true for you', but not for me, than the obvious conclusion is – if you say my belief is wrong, you are insulting me. After all, the idea has no support besides my belief. Whereas if the idea is supported by logic, you are only 'insulting' the logic.
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  #16  
Old 04-24-2008, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
This has happened to me before, and being the popcorn-eating viking brute that I am, naturally I will get alittle tired of this (And mad. So I went to conquer Britain, but failed).
Doffen cracks me up!
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Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
there are a few things though that you might also consider as a defence toward the people who do this.
You are correct in your observations, Doffen. I should not be so hard on kids who can't defend their position as I would be on adults who can't; but truthfully, I was thinking of some 'adults' who have played the "I'm offended!" card, actually.
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Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
(That's why me and Copperfox doesn't fit together. He's way to childish for me).
LOL!
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Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
It's INCREDIBLE that we haven't heard the "OFFENSIVE" comments more then we have. If people has been to other forums than this one, we know that 99% of them are more messy and insulting then this one.
Good point. I don't go to any other forum, and for the most part, people here are quite civil even when discussing very touchy subjects. I was thinking of the exceptions to the rule in my previous rant. I should just thank my lucky stars we don't have more rudeness. Or thank Jesus, or thank fate or whatever you prefer.
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Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
(I'm in no way saying that I'm a perfect debater either. I fail regularly in holding a good debate with someone)
Ah, you're too modest. No one can defend the position of eating peanut-butter and popcorn (and bunnies and eel) better than you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Copperfox View Post
Doffen, I think that BOTH of my wives, the one up in Heaven and the one down on Earth, would agree with you that I'm too childish. To which I would say, "And your point is--?"
LOL!
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Originally Posted by Dernhelm View Post
A thought: one aggravator of this problem is moral relativism. If something can be 'true for you', but not for me, than the obvious conclusion is – if you say my belief is wrong, you are insulting me. After all, the idea has no support besides my belief. Whereas if the idea is supported by logic, you are only 'insulting' the logic.
Now there is a way to look at the issue that I had never considered before. If a person's whole argument for something is: "It is true because I believe it is true," then naturally they would be insulted if I denied that such a thing could be true simply because they believe it is true.

And looking back over the particularly contentious discussions to which I was referring in my previous, most of the people who got offended the easiest were those who were approaching the issue from the idea that everyone could be right and no one wrong, based on the "moral relativism" Derny describes. In the squishy, feel-good realm of "It's true for me," asking for concrete evidence such as facts, documentation, scripture or references must have seemed mightily insulting.
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  #17  
Old 04-24-2008, 09:03 PM
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And beware: when someone is in the habit of saying "It's true for me," as a rule one thing that will be "true for him" is that he is allowed to place his own self-interest above any principle or law that is "true for" someone else.
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  #18  
Old 04-25-2008, 10:10 AM
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Yah -- I was thinking of the "I would never do it myself, but I cannot tell other people it is wrong to do it" or the "We can't legislate morality" defense of some abhorrent action. If it can be morally wrong, but only for me and not for anyone else, then in fact I must not find it all that wrong...
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  #19  
Old 04-30-2008, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
A thought: one aggravator of this problem is moral relativism. If something can be 'true for you', but not for me, than the obvious conclusion is – if you say my belief is wrong, you are insulting me. After all, the idea has no support besides my belief. Whereas if the idea is supported by logic, you are only 'insulting' the logic.
Just another thought for the person on the other side of the argument who does believe in absolute truth: It can really be frustrating if you find yourself in this position. Moral relativism is a sensitive spot for me, maybe because there is no hope of persuading someone to believe you are right when they do not believe there is such a thing as "right." All the discussions I have had with people who do not believe in right/wrong, both here and in "real life," tend to go no where, because we cannot really start to talk about the morality of something if the other person does not believe in morality to begin with... it's pretty frustrating sometimes.
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Old 04-30-2008, 05:13 PM
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CS Lewis said that even people who think there really is no right and no wrong will abandon that belief in a moment if they are being treated unjustly -- they will cry about the unfairness of it all ... even when in everyday life they deny that there is any such thing as fairness or goodness. It's a weird stance.
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