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The Socratic Club A club that Lewis founded at Oxford. A forum devoted to general philosophical and spiritual discussion

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  #1  
Old 03-01-2015, 02:39 AM
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It's nearly 3am, and I really should be off to bed.
I haven't been here in ages, and I certainly hope it hasn't died off too much.
I just got off work, and I was cut hours ago. I got sucked into a long conversation on religion with the bartenders fiance (I work weekends at applebees). Despite being a relatively pleasant one, I'm still bothered by the underlying tone that im being closed minded, when she can/ reason away any truth with questions and vague 'everything goes to the same pot, all is love' nonsense. Im tired of always feeling on the defense , and certainly of being the only one my age with any seeming desire to find God's truth. It feels as if though im the last orthodox Christian (small 'o') in the state. It makes me wish there was a Benedict option, not in the sense of running for the hills, but in the idea of a Christian community within society. I wish I had inkling friends, and certainly I can't be the only one who feels this way. Im startingto regret ever wishing to be an adult, this college period is full of hard questions and difficult changes.
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Old 03-01-2015, 03:56 PM
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Those who claim that you are "too narrow" are either (1) gross hypocrites themselves, or (2) deceived by others who are gross hypocrites. Here's why:

When you hold to a specific faith, you necessarily reject whatever clearly _contradicts_ your faith. Politically-correct skeptics use this fact to attack you. But they are throwing stones from the porch of a glass house. By insisting on the idea that "everything is the same," _they_ are being every bit as specific as you are, thus hypocrites. For to hold the "everything is the same" view, they have to _reject_ any and all views which _don't_ agree that everything is the same. So for every position you reject, they are _also_ rejecting a position (your own, for instance).
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Old 03-01-2015, 07:14 PM
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The irreducible principle of non-contradiction - if two claims contradict each other they can't both be true.

Jesus said He is the ONLY way. If that's true, then none of the other world's religions or philosophies that contradict that claim can be.

You're not being close-minded; you're being logically sound and consistent by holding fast.

If Jesus isn't the only way, then he was a liar or deluded and certainly not divine.
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Old 03-02-2015, 11:30 AM
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SoA, I am so sorry you are finding it difficult to relate to people who cannot follow your logic or who have been taught that holding to an absolute = close-mindedness.

Don't let it get you down, though. There are people who believe the same way you believe, and there are people who don't -- it will be the same all your life, and none of it means your beliefs are invalid or that it's "you against the world."

For one thing, even if you were the last true believer on earth (which you are not!), it wouldn't be you against the world, but you and JESUS against the world. He never leaves you, never forsakes you, always loves you. You are not alone!

This is a truth it took me 40 years or so to grasp. Jesus really is with me, in me, at work through me, and willing to talk and listen to me. Same for you. he is your stanchest ally and best friend. When you feel alone or overburdened, turn to Him. Invite Him to meet with you and wait in silence to hear His voice ... You cannot feel lonely too long when you experience His presence.

And a couple things to keep in mind ...

* You don't have to save the world. It's not up to you to make idiots see reason. All you can do, as the Scripture says, is be ready to give a reason for the hope that you have. After that, don't get bogged down in trying to force people to see the light. Jesus said the only ones who come to Him are drawn by the Father -- not by you.

* Jesus loves idiots (and everyone else). Even if someone is dead-set against the Truth and every logical evidence to the Truth, Jesus still loves that close-minded, idiotic person and died for love of him. The best you can do is remember, the moron who won't hear truth is Christ's beloved little son, and deserving of your respect (and love!). Give him grace to follow his bad path and pray he will find a good one. That's all you're owing him. (The Scripture says to know owe man anything except to love them, right?)

Hope this helps. And yes, any time you feel outnumbered, come here and say hey. You're among friends! We don't all agree on every point, but we're often willing to listen to reason, and we are FOR you. We love you!
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Old 03-02-2015, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by inkspot View Post
SoA, I am so sorry you are finding it difficult to relate to people who cannot follow your logic or who have been taught that holding to an absolute = close-mindedness.

Don't let it get you down, though. There are people who believe the same way you believe, and there are people who don't -- it will be the same all your life, and none of it means your beliefs are invalid or that it's "you against the world."

For one thing, even if you were the last true believer on earth (which you are not!), it wouldn't be you against the world, but you and JESUS against the world. He never leaves you, never forsakes you, always loves you. You are not alone!

This is a truth it took me 40 years or so to grasp. Jesus really is with me, in me, at work through me, and willing to talk and listen to me. Same for you. he is your stanchest ally and best friend. When you feel alone or overburdened, turn to Him. Invite Him to meet with you and wait in silence to hear His voice ... You cannot feel lonely too long when you experience His presence.

And a couple things to keep in mind ...

* You don't have to save the world. It's not up to you to make idiots see reason. All you can do, as the Scripture says, is be ready to give a reason for the hope that you have. After that, don't get bogged down in trying to force people to see the light. Jesus said the only ones who come to Him are drawn by the Father -- not by you.

* Jesus loves idiots (and everyone else). Even if someone is dead-set against the Truth and every logical evidence to the Truth, Jesus still loves that close-minded, idiotic person and died for love of him. The best you can do is remember, the moron who won't hear truth is Christ's beloved little son, and deserving of your respect (and love!). Give him grace to follow his bad path and pray he will find a good one. That's all you're owing him. (The Scripture says to know owe man anything except to love them, right?)

Hope this helps. And yes, any time you feel outnumbered, come here and say hey. You're among friends! We don't all agree on every point, but we're often willing to listen to reason, and we are FOR you. We love you!
Thanks. It was just a high Mark of frustration, so much is changing for me---especially in the faith arena and yet it makes it much more difficult. I think I understand why so many don't want to grow as Christians, because it's difficult. Though it's a poor excuse to be sure. Between school, New responsibilities at work and home, and all the changes in the way I operate make me yearn for a haven to run to and just enjoy the company of the brethren.
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Old 03-02-2015, 05:03 PM
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When I take the time to reason with idiots, I am not doing this in the expectation that the idiots themselves will come around to the truth; rather, I do it in the hope that witnesses to the argument will prove to be teachable.
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Old 03-02-2015, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Copperfox View Post
When I take the time to reason with idiots, I am not doing this in the expectation that the idiots themselves will come around to the truth; rather, I do it in the hope that witnesses to the argument will prove to be teachable.
I did have one too, a girl younger than me, and I certainly hope and pray she heard reason.
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Old 03-02-2015, 06:08 PM
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SoA, I am glad you are OK. We're your virtual brethren, so come here any time you need a shot of togetherness in Christ.

If you don't mind, this topic reminds me of something we were discussing over in the Lewis v Anscombe thread, whether CSL eventually gave up on trying to convince people of the logic of Christianity and turned instead to mysticism, to feeling as it were.

Feeling is one way of knowing, just as tasting is a way of knowing, and neither is logical. Is there a point at which we are better off to abandon logic and feel our way in the spiritual life? I am inclined to believe there is such a point, but you reach it only by way of the logic to begin with.

I think CSL says something similar to this in Mere Christianity, I think it is Mere Christianity, where he opines that great poets are allowed to break all the rules of meter and scanning in their poems only after they have learned them all by rote and so know when and how breaking them leads to art.

Author and speaker Fr Richard Rohr says something like that in his book "Falling Upward," that our first half of life is about building a good, rigid container for our lives with reliable sources for who am I, where am I going, who will go with me, etc. But then, in the second half of life, once we have truly answered those questions and learned all the rules, it becomes our joy to explode the container and beginning living wildly out of a heart of love.

Does this resonate with anyone? Has anyone found it better/easier/more effective to share God's story and God's love by forgetting logic and moving toward the mystic?
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Old 03-02-2015, 06:35 PM
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To a limited degree, but _only_ to a limited degree. Remember that at the time Lewis was writing, the hippie movement had not yet occurred. There simply _wasn't_ an overwhelming tendency in Western society to rely on mysticism and emotion. Therefore, Lewis was doing no harm by venturing into _some_ intuitive mysticism. But as of _this_ decade, Western society is absolutely _saturated_ with claims that whatever a person _feels_ emotionally, must be a cosmic revelation. Saying _today_ that we have too much logic and we need to relieve it with emotions is the same as "crowding to that side of the boat which is already nearly gunwale under."
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Old 03-03-2015, 12:40 PM
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I agree -- especially when it is basically children/immature people insisting on the validity of their feelings over logic/reason. That is an important point in CSL's view and Rohr's (whom I mentioned above): only when you are thoroughly familiar with logic/reason/the Law or whatever you want to call the restraints or confines, the system, are you free to diregard it when the time seems right to you. Lewis wrote his apologetics before he wrote Til We Have Faces.

When you have come, perhaps, to the end of reason, then it is your place to embark upon the journey of feeling. If you start at feeling, you will bypass the critical lessons of reason. You'll be in quicksand without the tools for how to maneuver there.
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