Would another C.S. Lewis please step forward?

waterhogboy said:
Yum! I love MacDonalds!


Me too! "The Light Princess" is fall-down funny. Didn't know MacDonald was such a wit until I read that. Reminded me - in a good way - of "Fractured Fairy Tales"! One of my all-time favorites!
 
Heehee - I meant the restaurant - Ive not heard of the author.... :D

I think HP's fine. I think the kids that make those comments are a bit naive cos I was young when I read em, but I didnt want to sart looking into magic. If you start saying things like that then most books should be considered bad cos theres always something in a book that a person could take too literally...
 
of interest:

"I believe in God, not magic." In fact, Rowling initially was afraid that if people were aware of her Christian faith, she would give away too much of what's coming in the series. "If I talk too freely about that," she told a Canadian reporter, "I think the intelligent reader - whether ten or sixty - will be able to guess what is coming in the books."
FANTASIA:THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO C.S. LEWIS by Michael Nelson, published in THE AMERICAN PROSPECT, volume 13, number 4, 25 February 2002.


and this, see Part 4 of this long interview:

http://www.cbc.ca/programs/sites/hottype_rowlingcomplete.html


and multiple references quoted and cited here:

http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=11779&page=4 post # 79


all for your reading and perusing and thinking pleasure/1 :D
 
I am a huge HP fan as well as a Narnia and LoTR freak. In all of those, magic is very prominant and plays an integral role.

However, I think that the type of people who have HP as one of the most banned books are just looking at the surface. All that they see when they read it is witch craft and spells. However, when you read these stories, it is very obvious that the authors are not writing about magic and such, but a deeper meaning such as Christianity in Narnia's case.

As long as people are reading these types of books for the stories and the lessons, not the magic, then I don't think it's much of an issue.
 
what i find when i listen to people diss the HP books is that they never actually read the book...they just think its evil and thats the end of that, never read it in ur life. But what people fail to reconize, as Evelien pointed out was there are many christian values in the books, and that is what kids usually pick up; not the magic or the misbehaving, but the values, and isn't that the most important thing?
 
I'm reading

I just started reading book one in HP (then went on the road and forgot it!) but I will say so far, as symbolism goes, it could go either way.

First, there's a defeat of evil and a huge celebration over an infant Harry, which sounds Christian -- a celebration over the birth of Christ, and tidings of great joy.

Then there's a young boy of great promise growing up in obscurity, which is also a picture of the Christ Child.

But then there's the lightning bolt scar on Harry -- Jesus said he saw Satan "fall like lightning," which could mean a lightning bolt scar is Satanic.

And Harry's first extraordinary event that we witness is his communication with a snake, and of course the first biblical snake was the devil himself.

But I've only read the first few chapters of the firstbook, so this is all very premature!
 
*****SPOILER ALERT!!!!! Harry Potter #4 Spoilers!!!!******

inkspot said:
I just started reading book one in HP (then went on the road and forgot it!) but I will say so far, as symbolism goes, it could go either way.
we have to remember that NOT EVERY BOOK IS BASED ON THE BIBLE. the question is not, "is hp based on the bible" but "is hp acceptable for young catholics to read?"

from what we see in the books, it is a fight of good and evil. many people don't like the books because, as they say, " Evil triumphs because Voldermort takes H blood, which was the intension of the whole book" (fourth book). However, to counter this aurgument, we could say one simple thing...THE BOOKS AREN'T FINISHED!!! we don't no if evil triumphs in the end...cause the end hasn't been written
 
Harry is not supposed to be Jesus the Christ, Inkspot. He is Everyman, as in a medieval morality play, or Joe Christian (or Joanna Christian, if you prefer).

See www.hogwartsprofessor.com for some information in this regard by John Granger. He also has a book LOOKING FOR GOD IN HARRY POTTER which is in the series you have encountered in LOOKING FOR GOD IN LOTR as you mention somewhere.
 
** HP Sorcerer Stone Spoilers**

So what about his special powers? Not Everyman has magic powers. I thought, because he was the toast of the (magical) town from the time he vanquished Voldemort (sp? sorry) as a baby, he was something special, the chosen one like Anakin and so forth?

Or do the magical powers serve as a loose metaphor for the power that is ours through Christ?

If he is supposed to be any ordinary Christian, I don't get the special powers. But as I say, I just got started in the book.
 
inkspot said:
So what about his special powers? Not Everyman has magic powers.

** HP Spoilers**

what you have to remember about kids books is who they r geared to. children like to read books that have children as the hero, and children having special power. that is why this book is so interesting to younger readers.

Now, to the book version on why he has special powers....

We don't no why he is special. We don't no because we don't no what will happen @ the end of the book. We don't even no if the prophesy in 5th book applies to HP (yes, i no the book has provided evidence on HP applting to the prophecy, but JK's style of writing is 2 lead you down one path, then add a twist)
 
From a post over at Entmoot.com by yours truly:

Well, I think Harry is an Everyman in the same way that Dante is an Everyman in the Divine Comedy. In the latter, we see through Dante's eyes and experience what he does. The same is true in Harry Potter and to a much greater degree in terms of revelation of thoughts and emotions and dreams. And, we don't get the same sort of information in the same ways from Hermione or Ron or any other character. Our entire experience of Hogwarts is via the external, internal, and self-perceptions of Harry.

And I agree that Harry is special. Every human is special in the same way as Harry. We all fight Voldemort. His angst about being the chosen one is our angst when we have to make the decisions about daily lives and character.
And what you say about his specialness in relation to Dumbledore and the other characters is true - only Harry can be Harry to each of them and be unique in his opportunities. But this was and is equally true for each of the other characters IF the story were written from their point of view as it is from Harry's. And Harry is/maybe a Christ figure in the same way as each of them is/could be were the story told from their point of view, or not (if that is the choice finally made). So I contend that Harry is the Everyman from the structure of the book, the way the characters are delineated, and the way they interact.

On a related note, Harry makes all the important decisions about his character and development as he becomes capable of handling them, hence his angst. But all adolescents go through this in the normal development process AND, importantly, all persons continue to go through this as they face the trials and temptations of life and adulthood, middle-age, and older years. This process never ends in this life. And that is why I think Harry is Everyman and appeals to adults and children. (Did you know that greater than one-third of all HP books are thought to be purchased by adults for themselves! There is one company in England that makes them available in plain brown wrappers so persons reading in public transport or places won't be "embarassed"!) I think this appeal comes from the fact that we all are at Hogwarts everyday of our lives, and we all are uniquely placed and gifted, and we all face Voldemort, and it is a fight to death for each of us.
 
Yes

Yes, I see why the character's having magical power is appealing to kids reading the book.

But if as Inked says the HP series is a morality tale in the same vein as CON, then there is only one way HP could have the powers and be a child of prophecy/promise, and that would be if he were the Christ symbol, wouldn't it?

I can't square the things that make Harry look like the fulfillment of prophecy/chosen one, etc, if this is a semi-allegory like Narnia, unless HP is a type of Christ. Who else was a chosen child in our faith?

I am not saying that HP books are an allegory, but I understood Inked's point to be that JKR is now doing what Lewis and Tolkien did, with her HP tales, and so I was trying to investigate that claim.

If you look at the books as just good entertainment, not any kind of symbolism/Christian allegory, it's perfectly fine for Harry to have all kinds of powers and be a special prophesied boy, of course.
 
Sorry

inked said:
Every human is special in the same way as Harry. We all fight Voldemort. His angst about being the chosen one is our angst when we have to make the decisions about daily lives and character.... I think this appeal comes from the fact that we all are at Hogwarts everyday of our lives, and we all are uniquely placed and gifted, and we all face Voldemort, and it is a fight to death for each of us.
Sorry, Inked, you and I were posting at the same time. I see now what you are saying.
 
Hello, everybody. Inkspot, you're right on the money!
I'm so glad someone else is actually agreeing with my point of view.
I just wanted to ask Inked what he thought of the previous post I made stating children's direct responses to the HP books.
The things they said, right from posts they made on that webpage, are rather revealing about what kids really feel about the books.
Inked, I'm supposing you are a full grown adult. Could you maybe consider what an impact this may have on kids, even if you do not agree with me?

After all, despite the fact that you are a 'well-learned' ;) adult, there are kids out there who may not know anything other than what is presented to them when they go to the library and pick up a HP book. They don't get to hear what I and other concerned people are saying, mostly because our few, small voices are drowned out by the likes of media, online chatrooms, and positive book reviews (Look, J.K. Rowling had one thing in mind with writing an occult-type book: MONEY! C'mon, you can't possibly think it was all about 'writing a sweet children's book'? Tee hee!).

People like Richard Abanes are rare in that they are being ignored by the majority of HP readers. HP is all about making a 'modern' tale that no one will object to because it is 'new' and 'raw' (I'm sure everyone knows by now about the gruesome 'Nearly Headless Nick').

Yuck. I can't stand seeing most of the new books for kids. Has anyone seen the 'Teen Witch' books? :eek:
 
GR22,

Try the link above your post. :p

And, I'll have you know, that those evil, vile, despicable Narnia books can entrap children into magick and spells, what with the witches, and the sacrifice, and the fauns and satyrs,... ;) !

Mr. Abanes is in error as I have iterated before.

My children had Narnian clothes made by their grandmother. They acted out their favorite parts of the books and made up their own Narnian adventures. It is the same with children and Harry Potter. NO more, NO less.
The imagination of the child is not being fettered to evil spirits or moral degeneration by covens of witches and warlocks because they enjoy a very traditional form of story-telling. Unless you really intend that the Wizard of Oz, the Wicked Witch of the West, and all those Munchkins do the same! Or, the arch-villain of how many fairy tales and nursery tales!

Ack! Ack! Run for your lives! They are everywhere!

Now, what about your protests of TV amd film themes on these lines? Has there been a huge impact on Satanic cultist enrolment from say, Star Trek (Mr. Spock had pointy ears!) or Bewitched (housewives ensnared by Devil over twitchy-nosed houseworks?) Buffy the Vampire Slayer? Or, for historical reference, in what I assume your parents' time, an upswing in vampires over the TV Soap Dark Shadows?

And lets not forget advertising! Billions of children ensnared into witchcraft by Lucky Charms cereal (IT's magically delicious!) or Keebler's elves cookies (Are they diabolically good, or it that DEVIL'S cake you're eating?).

I could go on and on as you apparently should if your critique or Mr. Abanes were consistent. And what about those Saturday morning cartoons? There is a fertile field for demonic influences~galore!
***********

OK, end of rant! but obviously I do not agree with you or Mr. Abanes on the alleged baleful influence of JKR or HP. It may hearten you to know that I do not agree with many literary critics that the writing is sloppy, inartful, or drivel, either.

You really should check out LOOKING FOR GOD IN HARRY POTTER by John Granger, 2004, Tyndale House:

Publisher's Preface

Dear Reader, Some may wonder why a publisher of distinctly Christian books would publish a book about the Harry Potter series, which, while phenomenally successful, has been criticized by some groups within the Christian community. The answer is really quite simple.

Millions of ourng people are reading the Harry Potter books, providing parents with a wonderful opportunity to use the stories their children love to read to start discussions with them about Christian ideas and values - and about how to evaluate the worldview imbedded in any piece of literature. We hope LOOKING FOR GOD IN HARRY POTTER will serve as a catalyst for such discussions and as a bridge to growth in faith and spiritual understanding.

The Publisher

So, you see, GR22, there are other viewpoints of HP and JKR than the unfortunate one you seem to have only had access to (by choice or accident, I do no know). Recall Our Lord's words that it was not what went into man (he was referencing foods) and passed through, but what came out of the heart rather that was important! True of food, it must be true of ideas as well.

On the other hand, I recommend to you the film THE GODS MUST BE CRAZY which is the expose of the evils of a Coca Cola bottle dropped among aborigines! Or, is it really about the locus of evil within humanity and human choices?
 
Good news

The link Inked posted led to an interesting article that was written after the third HP book's release, and which had the following real gem in it:

Near the end of the second book, after a terrifying encounter with Voldemort—his third, since Voldemort had tried to kill Harry, and succeeded in killing his parents, when Harry was a baby, and had confronted Harry again in the first book—he confesses his doubts to Dumbledore.

"So I should be in Slytherin," Harry said, looking desperately into Dumbledore’s face. "The Sorting Hat could see Slytherin’s power in me, and it—"
"Put you in Gryffindor," said Dumbledore calmly. "Listen to me, Harry. You happen to have many qualities Salazar Slytherin prized in his hand–picked students. Resourcefulness . . . determination . . . a certain disregard for rules," he added, his moustache quivering again. "Yet the Sorting Hat placed you in Gryffindor. You know why that was. Think."
"It only put me in Gryffindor," said Harry in a defeated voice, "Because I asked not to go in Slytherin. . . ."
"Exactly," said Dumbledore, beaming once more. "Which makes you very different from [Voldemort]. It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." Harry sat motionless in his chair, stunned.
Harry is stunned because he realizes for the first time that his confusion has been wrongheaded from the start: he has been asking the question "Who am I at heart?" when he needed to be asking the question "What must I do in order to become what I should be?" His character is not a fixed preexistent thing, but something that he has the responsibility for making: that’s why the Greeks called it character, "that which is engraved."


This is a beautiful parallel to the very Christian idea that while we all are born evil and have the power to do evil, we can choose to do good --I would add, we can do good when Christ is at work through us. I am thinking maybe Inked is on the right path.
 
Inkspot,

Glad you liked the article.

I want to disagree with you that we are born evil. Do you really intend that?
Did you perhaps mean totally depraved in the Calvinistic mode?

At any rate, I can assert that was not Mr Lewis' belief as illustrated in TCON, the books of the Space Trilogy, nor in his more specifically theological writings.

What the Anglican Tradition would say (and does say very explicitly in the Thirty-nine Articles) is:
"IX. OF ORIGINAL OR BIRTH SIN.
Original sin standeth not in the following of Adam (as the Pelagians do vainly talk) but it is the fault and corruption of the Nature of every man, that naturally is engendered of the offspring of Adam; whereby man is very far gone from original righteousness, and is of his own nature inclined to evil, so that the flesh lusteth always contrary to the Spirit; and therefore in every person born into this world, it deserveth God's wrath and damnation." BOOK OF COMMON PRAYER, 1979, ECUSA, page 869.

I think there is a vast difference between "born evil" and "very far gone from original righteousness, and is of his own nature INCLINED to evil". The former is overstating the case in the same way but in the opposite direction from the "born innocent and able to follow God's law perfectly" of the Pelagians. The former goes even further than total depravity, IMHO.

But, do I misunderstand you?
 
No. I agree with Inkspot. We are born evil, every human is, the one exception being Christ, who because of his perfection died so that all others may be saved...
 
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