Between LWW and PC

Copperfox said:
As far as I know, the Calormenes were not featured in PC, VDT or TSC because he hadn't thought of them yet. But since he finally did get around to imagining them, it is possible, in fact necessary, to think about what they might have been doing just off stage.
They are in fact mentioned in VDT, in reference to the Lone Islands (and Eustace thinks he might take the dragon's treasure and go and live there). I don't deny that the Calormenes could have been playing a role in Narnia between LWW and PC, but at the moment I'm not seeing a coherent storyline that has them doing so. But, hey, this thread is not only for my ideas - if you can see a storyline that has them playing a significant part, please post it :)

Meanwhile, my own ideas are flowing in a different direction. One of the reasons I took so long to get round to starting this thread was because I thought there was too little material to work from to build an interesting discussion. However, the more I think about it, there more I realise there is quite a lot of relevant material containing clues to work from.

Today, I started to think about the lords that Miraz had killed, imprisoned or exiled because they might have taken Caspian's part. The only one we really come across in any kind of detail is Bern. He seems to be a very fair-minded man. He is at least vehemently opposed to the slave trade, and does not appear to be raising any objections to Caspian's reconciliation between the Telmarines and the Old Narnians. (In fairness, we cannot draw too much of an argument from silence, since the only Old Narnian in Caspian's company was Reepicheep, and there is no record of the interaction between Bern and Reepicheep. Bern may not have been fully aware of all the changes Caspian had made in Narnia. Nevertheless, it is reasonable to assume that he had some awareness, and that he was not wholly opposed to those changes.)

Then, we also have Doctor Cornelius saying that many Telmarines privately wish for a return to the old days, as well as the fact that Caspian's mother was good to him.

The next clue (again, something of an argument from silence, but a reasonable assumption) is that Miraz seems to have been able to usurp the throne without instigating a civil war or serious conflict. Doctor Cornelius seems to suggest that the fact that Miraz murdered Caspian IX was something of an open secret. If so, if Caspian IX's supporters had any kind of power, they would have been able to prevent Miraz's accession, or at the very least to raise a violent rebellion against it.

Consequently, the following sequence of events occurred to me. Possibly, Caspian IX was inclining towards a rather different policy from that of his father, perhaps leaning in the direction of seeking to restore something of old Narnia and reconcile the Telmarines with it. Caspian IX had a circle of friends rather different to that of his father, and showed signs that he was likely to promote those lords to positions of power, edging out those who had been dominant under Caspian VIII. Miraz, both because of an opposition to his brother's plans for Narnia and through a personal ambition to take the throne himself, sided with his father's allies, persuading them that he was a better king than his brother, and thereby ensuring that his brother was not long on the throne but was quickly ousted. The lords who supported Caspian IX were not yet strong enough to resist this move, and were taken by surprise by Miraz's boldness.

I'm also wondering about the issue of timescale. In VDT we learn that the seven lords' ship (well, there were only four lords by that time) had put into Coriakin's island seven years before Caspian arrived. Assuming that they sailed at the same rate as Caspian, that would suggest that they had left Narnia only four years before Caspian's accession to the throne. Of course, they may not have sailed at the same speed as Caspian did, having no particular destination or mission, and thereby lingered longer in some of the intervening places, or sailed around the ocean more than Caspian did. However, if that were the case, it is surprising that all seven lords lay on the same path that Caspian took in the Dawn Treader. One would have expected them to be more scattered.

One other point that may or may not have any relevance to anything, but Doctor Cornelius says that the castle Caspian grows up in was built by his great-great-grandfather, presumably Caspian VI, assuming an unbroken line of Caspians. (That said, I'm increasingly skeptical of an unbroken line of Caspians. Looking at the history of English kings, I don't think we have ever gone more than three generations of father-to-son succession without some kind of disruption to the line. I want to do a bit more research on other ruling dynasties to see whether the pattern is similar there, and then will report back here with my conclusions.) Anyway, I wonder where the Telmarine kings ruled from before that, and why the new castle was built.

A final question for the moment. I am thinking a lot about Trufflehunter's comment about Narnia never being right except when a son of Adam was king. To me, this seems to imply that there have been a number of periods when there were human kings, as well as a number of periods where there were not. We know that there was a significant period following TMN when there were human kings, as well as a time under Jadis where there was not. (In my reconstruction of Jadis's rise to power, I suggested that the line of human kings had died out a couple of centuries before Jadis took power, though that is speculation, of course.) What do we think Trufflehunter's comment means for the time between the Pevensies leaving and the Telmarine invasion? Does it imply that there were times of human rule? Does it imply there were times without human rule? Does it imply anything about how many of each there were during that time?

Peeps
 
As noted previously, though, the Calormenes do not seem to be significant players in PC, VDT or TSC, which makes me feel that during the Telmarine period they had largely lost their appetite for northern exploits, until nearer the time of Tirian, at least.

Speculation is made awkward by dear Mister Lewis having seemingly made it up as he went along. As far as I know, the Calormenes were not featured in PC, VDT or TSC because he hadn't thought of them yet. But since he finally did get around to imagining them, it is possible, in fact necessary, to think about what they might have been doing just off stage.

We mustn't forget that The Chronicles of Narnia were basically written for children, and is it not therefore possible that is why there are problems with continuity in places? The author would not expect such an audience to be analysing the books in such depth as we do!

As far as the Calormenes in PC, VDT and SC goes, is it not possible that after Rabadash's failed attempt to invade, and his reluctance to repeat such an adventure for fear of becoming a donkey permanently, the Calormenes were too fearful of the consequences to invade northern countries? In any case, the latter would have no doubt vastly improved their southern defences after Rabadash's defeat. Then there is also the problem of crossing the desert.
 
Ugh, my trivial knowledge of the chronicles is proving rusty, as I have not read too much from them in the last year or two. In fact I'm thinking of picking up a Spanish version to practice the language but also try a new spin on what would be an otherwise predictable story-going experience.

I'm also wondering about the issue of timescale. In VDT we learn that the seven lords' ship (well, there were only four lords by that time) had put into Coriakin's island seven years before Caspian arrived. Assuming that they sailed at the same rate as Caspian, that would suggest that they had left Narnia only four years before Caspian's accession to the throne.

Outstanding observation Peeps. And I don't suspect they would have taken a much longer journey than that of Caspian's.

In VDT, Caspian tells Gumpas that there is no record of Narnia receiving the tribute from the Lone Islands for about 150 years. This timescale puts it within the period of the Telmarine kings. Therefore, there must have continued to be some trade with the sea at least until the reign of about Caspian IV.

Again, a well-documented observation Peeps. An average of 30 years per regent is reasonable. Nevertheless several reigns could have been substantially shorter. And if the 7 lords were ousted only four years before Caspian X became king, then perhaps this was indeed shortly after Miraz's usurpation (and his brother's murder). So perhaps Caspian IX was killed as recently as four or five years prior to Caspian X's ascendancy? Or is there something in Prince Caspian that suggests or states that Caspian X never lived to know his father and that he must have been murdered at least twelve years prior to the onset of Caspian X's reign? (assuming Caspian X is about 12 years old in Prince Caspian). Also, if the tribute had been received only 150 years prior, it suggests proper relations between the Lone Islanders and Cair Paravel then. Yet the Telmarines as a whole feared the sea. Would this not apply to the early Telmarines too? Or did the ancestors of Caspian VI reside at Cair Paravel? Did they see visions of Aslan there on the sea and become frightened? Is that why or how they relocated residences?

Is it safe to say the potential range of time between LWW and PC could be as little as 150 to 200 years? Is there anything to utterly contradict such a supposition? Lewis constructs the analogy of King Arthur, and so I'd suppose a millennia is a more appropriate conservative estimate. Perhaps there were other kings besides "Caspians." Perhaps it was not long after the Pevensies left that the Telmarines invaded. I had forgotten Peter's comment about the dug channel. Evidence suggests much of Old Narnia's ruin was brought about by invasion. Erosion was responsible for the Rush's gorge, but other than the Pevensie's recollection we haven't much to compare it to. I'm starting to see more plausible evidence for a shorter span of time between LWW and PC.

Odd, isn't it, that "Caspian" and Telmarine are the main words used to describe a sea-faring people that originally arrived from a cave on an island. Perhaps they were not always sea-faring. I'm not sure if we're raising more questions than we're answering, but I'm perfectly fine with that. The pleasure of witnessing Peeps sharp mind at work indoors accompanied by my trusty air-conditioning system sure beats the Houston heat!

We mustn't forget that The Chronicles of Narnia were basically written for children, and is it not therefore possible that is why there are problems with continuity in places? The author would not expect such an audience to be analysing the books in such depth as we do!

Too true! (But it is so much fun to do so).
 
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Copperfox said:
As far as I know, the Calormenes were not featured in PC, VDT or TSC because he hadn't thought of them yet. But since he finally did get around to imagining them, it is possible, in fact necessary, to think about what they might have been doing just off stage.
Addendum to this: Calormen is also mentioned at then end of PC ch 5. Lewis had therefore thought of it, though I agree he doesn't seem to have given much thought to the nature of the country and its relationship to Narnia. Perhaps he hadn't yet even decided its location.

Tirian, I don't think Caspian VI's predecessors resided at Cair Paravel, due to my earlier observation that the castle didn't seem to have been lived in since the Pevensies left. However, I think they might not have been quite as averse to the sea as their later successors.

I would also say that 200 years is too short for the time between LWW and PC, due to the age of Aslan's How as well as the woods and the state of Cair Paravel. Also, within 200 years it is difficult to see how memory of PSEL and Aslan could have been so thoroughly erased. I would see the very lowest limit as about 500 years, but I am inclined to go with the timeline figure of about 1300 years.

Peeps
 
Continuous succession of Caspians?

So, I did a little research into the feasibility of an uninterrupted line of eight successive father-to-son successions (Caspian I to IX). As I mentioned yesterday, England has never had more than three such successions in a row. However, I also looked at the royal houses of Scotland and France and they fared a little better.

Scotland managed a run of nine consecutive parent-to-child transitions (Robert II to Charles I), although the interposition of one woman in that line means there were only six consecutive father-to-son transitions (including five consecutive Jameses - the longest continuous run of the same name in any of these three royal houses).

France managed an even more impressive eleven consecutive father-to-son successions, starting with Hugh Capet in 987 and ending with John I in 1316. However, these were not always father-to-eldest son transitions, due to eldest sons pre-deceasing their fathers and other complications. Consequently, nothing like the nine consecutive King Caspians is seen.

This raises a few possibilities for Narnia.

(1) Narnia just happened to have a freak occurrence of nine successive father-to-eldest son transitions, and each father called his eldest son Caspian, presumably over a span of about 250-300 years.

(2) There were in fact other kings (perhaps queens too) interspersed among the Caspians. This then lengthens the timescale for the Telmarine rule. To get an idea for how long it would take to get through ten Caspians, I looked at England, which managed to get through eight Henrys in about 450 years, though it took over 600 years to get through eight Edwards (though only about 250 years for the first six of them). They also got through six Georges in little over 200 years. Scotland managed to get through seven Jameses in less than 300 years. France took just 500 years to get through its first ten Louises, though nearly 700 years to get through its last ten, and over 800 years to get through nine Charleses.

Consequently, a ballpark figure of 500-700 years of Telamrine rule seems reasonable, if we assume that there was not an unbroken line of Caspians.

(3) A third possibility is that, as happens in England and with the papacy, a newly crowned Telmarine king could choose the name by which he would reign, and this did not need to be his brith name. It could be that the convention developed for all Telmarine kings to be called Caspian. This would remove the issue of needing father-to-eldest son transitions.

However, there are a few problems with this view:
(a) Why did Miraz not take the name Caspian? - presumably it would be even more important for him than for his predecessors, given that he was not a legitimate king, to have a name that suggested he was legitimate.
(b) If a new king would take the name Caspian regardless of his actual name, why did Caspian IX feel the need to call his son Caspian?
(c) Why did Rilian and his successors suddenly break with tradition?

(c) is probably the least problematic. Perhaps after the reconciliation of Telmarines and old Narnians, Rilian or Caspian decided it was time for a break with the tradition to mark this change. We might ask why Caspian himself didn't break with the tradition, but perhaps he didn't think of it in time, or perhaps because Caspian was his actual name, or perhaps with other things changing so much he wanted to reassure the Telmarines that he was still a Telmarine king and respected their traditions.

With regard to (b), perhaps there was still a convention to name the oldest son Caspian, even if that son subsequently died so that the next son had to change his name to Caspian on taking the throne.

(a) is the most problematic - it seems very unlikely that Miraz would not have taken the name Caspian. My solution would not be acceptable to everyone, but draws on the principles I outlined a long time ago in the Hermeneutics in Narniology thread. It could be suggested that Miraz did in fact take the name Caspian X, and perhaps too that Prince Caspian was not actually known at the time as Caspian but had another name. However, as the history was later recorded, the official names were used, rather than the names as they were used at the time. Hence, because the history recorded Miraz as a usurper, they named him Miraz to emphasise his lack of legitimacy; similarly Prince Caspian was so called to emphasise that he was the rightful king.

The papacy did something like this when they decided that Pope Stephen II, who died very shortly after being elected and before he was enthroned, should not be considered a pope. They therefore retrospectively renumbered all the later popes III through VIII to become II through VII, even though they were not known by those numbers at the time they reigned. There is some evidence that biblical characters' names may have been amended in the same way - in particular, King Saul (or a character closely resembling him) is found in some extra-biblical writings as Lebihu, which may have been his real name and the name by which he was known at the time, but the history books called him 'Saul' meaning 'asked for', because he was the king the people had asked Samuel to give them. (I don't intend this thread to turn into a discussion of the name of Saul or any other biblical character, but I simply give it as an illustration of what could have happened, and suggest that it could also be applicable to the Caspians conundrum.)

Option (3) also allows the possibility that the Telmarine rule was shorter than nine generations long, since the throne could have been passed to younger brothers or cousins who would have taken the name Caspian on accession.

On the whole, of the three options outlined above, I would incline towards option (2), although I quite like option (3) as a possibility too.

Peeps
 
"You assume several things here"

That's all we can do==make assumptions. :)

"That the Archenlander kings continued a line of unbroken succession from Frank and Helen (though King Nain could perhaps himself be a Telmarine); it is not even certain that Lune and Cor were descendents of the original stock of Frank's descendents."

We know of only two lines of human lineage. Frank and Helen's line and the Telmarine lineage. We know that Frank's second son founded or became king of Archenland. Where the Calormenes came from isn't explained nor the human lineage for the islands. It could be that they all came from Frank and Helen's line, but the nymphs and wood/river gods were the mates to Frank and Helen's children.

"That the Telmarine invasion was simply an empire-building land-grab,"

I made no assumption. I presume that there was something wrong in Telmar or they left for some other reason.

"That the Archenlander kings would have taken the side of the Old Narnians "

Why would they take the side of the Telmarines? Archenland was at peace and acceptance of Narnia and its inhabitants. Why would they accept the attack of the talking animals?

"the Calormenes do not seem to be significant players in PC, VDT or TSC"

The Calormenes had no interest in Northern expansion. They definitely expanded to the east. The Calormenes were the slave owners of the Golden Age while the islands became this during the Telmarine age. And why not? The Telmarines abandoned the seas.

MrBob
 
MrBob said:
That's all we can do==make assumptions. :)
It's not all we can do... we can also gather evidence to try to put together the most plausible story.

By observing that you were making assumptions, I wasn't implying that your assumptions were wrong, only that they are not demanded by the text and so if we were to make different assumptions then we could legitimately reach different conclusions.

We know of only two lines of human lineage. Frank and Helen's line and the Telmarine lineage. We know that Frank's second son founded or became king of Archenland. Where the Calormenes came from isn't explained nor the human lineage for the islands. It could be that they all came from Frank and Helen's line, but the nymphs and wood/river gods were the mates to Frank and Helen's children.
However, we can reasonably infer that there must have been at least a third lineage for the Calormenes, since it seems unlikely they were descended from white Europeans, and Aslan implies there are multiple doors into Narnia from our world (I forget where), so it is not unreasonable to infer that there may have been multiple lineages.

The other thing we know is that at the time the Pevensies first arrived in Narnia, it was so long since humans had been in Narnia that it was plausible to speculate that humans didn't even exist but were purely mythical creatures. This implies to me that the humans had probably died out from Narnia before Jadis took over, rather than having been overthrown by her, and this raises the question of why. It also raises the possibility that something similar could have happened in Archenland too, and that Lune and Cor were not descendants of Frank and Helen but come from some other lineage.

"That the Telmarine invasion was simply an empire-building land-grab,"

I made no assumption. I presume that there was something wrong in Telmar or they left for some other reason.
You were assuming that the reason that they did not take Archenland or Ettinsmoor as well as Narnia was because they were unable to do so.

"That the Archenlander kings would have taken the side of the Old Narnians "

Why would they take the side of the Telmarines?
Well, if they were Telmarines themselves, for example.

Archenland was at peace and acceptance of Narnia and its inhabitants. Why would they accept the attack of the talking animals?
They were at the time of LWW. But PC takes place hundreds, perhaps thousands of years later. In our world national allegiances change far more quickly than that. I see no reason why we should assume they necessarily remain fixed for such long periods in the Narnian world.

The Calormenes had no interest in Northern expansion.
They did in HHB and TLB.

They definitely expanded to the east.
Did they? When? All we know is that there was some trade with the Lone Islands by the time of VDT; we know nothing about 'expansion'.

Peeps
 
Can't believe I hadn't seen this before...

Aslan explains that the Telmarines came to Narnia because there was a famine in Telmar at that time. He also says that Narnia was in some disorder at the time of the invasion.

Guess I'll have to go and modify my invasion theories...
 
Tirian, I don't think Caspian VI's predecessors resided at Cair Paravel, due to my earlier observation that the castle didn't seem to have been lived in since the Pevensies left. However, I think they might not have been quite as averse to the sea as their later successors.

True. I'm not sure why I didn't pay more attention to that firm point. Though I'd like to know why the tribute from the Lone Islands was being paid to the crown a mere 150 years prior to Caspian's voyage. The only other explanation I can devise is some kind of corruption or mercenary alliance involving the Calormenes. In fact the film suggested such a possibility when in the voiceover of Miraz's coronation Calormen "pledged" its armies. Having in common antagonism toward Old Narnia underscores such a possibility.

Regarding Narnia's capitol, an impression I'm only now aware of that seems to have been present all along underneath the surface (pun intended) is that Cair Paravel was (and was seen) as a sacred place, of Narnia's golden age. Hence, perhaps, why it was sort of left as it was when the Pevensies vanished out of Narnia.

The disorder the Telmarines found Narnia in when they invaded it because they were driven by famine may be in part from a similar Narnian attitude during the events of The Horse and His Boy. When Shasta inconspicuously arrives in Southern Narnia, status quo animals greet him without much regard for a supposed imminent invasion. As C.S. Lewis described him, they had become quite careless in their day-to-day going abouts. Rather than a particular power struggle, I envision a gradually put persistent reduction in centrality or unity. All of the animals, I suppose, would be going about their business without too much concern for what was taking place farther away from them in other parts of Narnia. Naturally this lended an advantage to Caspian the Conquerer, whenever he may have arrived. Your theory of a conquerer possibly uniting neighboring regions, such as Archenland, decidedly does have merit. Still, it's hard to envision Narnia as part of any "league of nations" for lack of an immediate, better analogy. Returning to the idea of the animals' carelessness, we infer this theme yet again in The Last Battle when tyrannical Calormenes have seemlessly become masters of the talking animals in their own homeland. Throughout its history, Narnia could never be taken immediately, only gradually.

It is a delight to watch Mr. Lewis pick Peeps' brain.
 
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True. I'm not sure why I didn't pay more attention to that firm point. Though I'd like to know why the tribute from the Lone Islands was being paid to the crown a mere 150 years prior to Caspian's voyage. The only other explanation I can devise is some kind of corruption or mercenary alliance involving the Calormenes. In fact the film suggested such a possibility when in the voiceover of Miraz's coronation Calormen "pledged" its armies. Having in common antagonism toward Old Narnia underscores such a possibility.
I took the 'pledging' in the film as signs of a feudal system at work - ie. that the regions of Narnia were governed by regional lords, who each pledged their troops to the service of the King in return for the King's protection of their region with the whole of Narnia's forces.

[Edit: I've just looked up the move script to see which regions 'pledge their troops' in that scene. The four are Beruna, Galma, Tashbaan, Ettinsmoor. Only the first of these is an area within Narnia. However, since we know from the books that the Telmarines were at war with the northern giants, and it strikes me as inconceivable that the Calormenes would lend their troops to support a Narnian king without demanding his submission to them in return, I think this must be seen as a place where the film departs from the books. I wonder why they put those lines in the film at all, in fact. They make no sense at all.]

The tribute from the Lone Islands, however, is an important clue, I think. It must mean that Narnia continued to trade with the sea until well into Telmarine rule, and also that before the Telmarine invasion there must have been, if not kings, at least a sufficiently centralised government in Narnia that it could receive such tribute.

Actually, the whole Lone Islands story strikes me as decidedly odd. That the islands should give themselves to Narnia simply in return for being delivered from a dragon is remarkable enough, but that their loyalty should thus persist throughout a hundred-year reign of the White Witch, and through centuries of disorder following the Pevensies' departure, and that even after they had lost contact with Narnia for 150 years they still officially acknowledged Narnia's overlordship is quite astonishing. The islands were clearly well-capable of governing themselves, so why they didn't just appoint themselves a new king, or join with the other islands, instead of continuing their allegiance to Narnia, is quite a mystery to me. However, that's a topic for another thread, perhaps.

Regarding Narnia's capitol, an impression I'm only now aware of that seems to have been present all along underneath the surface (pun intended) is that Cair Paravel was (and was seen) as a sacred place, of Narnia's golden age. Hence, perhaps, why it was sort of left as it was when the Pevensies vanished out of Narnia.
But Cair Paravel also predates the White Witch, and therefore is not only a product of the Golden Age. But you may have a point that its four thrones may have been seen as meaning the castle was very specifically for the prophesied kings and queens, rather than just for whoever happens to be ruling Narnia.

The disorder the Telmarines found Narnia in when they invaded it because they were driven by famine may be in part from a similar Narnian attitude during the events of The Horse and His Boy...
Ok, so you are thinking no that there was particular disorder (in the sense of conflict), but that there was just not any particular centralised order. But I wonder, in that case, why Aslan said it was "a long story" as to why Narnia was "then in some disorder".

Still, it's hard to envision Narnia as part of any "league of nations" for lack of an immediate, better analogy.
Actually, it was the Holy Roman Empire that I had in mind more than the League of Nations.

It is a delight to watch Mr. Lewis pick Peeps' brain.
Glad I'm keeping you entertained. It's what I'm here for :D

Peeps
 
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How soon after the Pevensies' return to England Cair Paravel was abandoned I do not know, and can find no evidence either to suggest that their successors (whoever they were) dwelt their for a while at least, or that the place was abandoned immediately or almost immediately after their departure. However, I'm quite confident that the Telmarine kings (until Caspian X) did not reign from or inhabit Cair Paravel at all: indeed it had been abandoned perhaps hundreds of years before the time of Miraz. This would be quite logical, considering the Telmarine's great fear of the sea. This would provide sufficient incentive or motive for them to give Cair Paravel and the surrounding area, not to mention the entire coastal region of Narnia a very wide berth!
 
Back to my original questions

Well, I feel that I've probably mentioned all the key relevant evidence, so I'm going to return to my original questions and start putting some tentative answers to them. Let me know what you think of the answers, and/or offer your own answers instead, and I'll move on from there.

Peepiceek said:
1) What happened in Narnia after the Pevensies suddenly disappeared? Was there a crisis of power, or was there a peaceful transition? Who came to rule?
It does not appear to me that an Archenlander king took over Narnia, since there is no mention of such made at the end of HHB. Moreover, if they had done, it would have been likely to result in a union of the two countries under one king, which doesn't appear to have happened. However, it seems likely that the kings of Archenland may have taken a role as mediator of disputes within Narnia.

It seems likely to me that Ram the Great, Cor and Aravis's son, may have established Archenland as a significant regional power, perhaps taking on a role as chief king, perhaps even emperor, over a Grand Northern Alliance, including Archenland, Narnia, the islands, and perhaps even Telmar, and conceivably even some territories formerly in the northwest of the Calormene dominion.

However, for whatever reason this arrangement was not long-lasting, such that by the time of the Telmarine invasion a few hundred years later, there was probably no human king of Narnia, perhaps no king at all.

It strikes me as likely that the dwarfs would have sought to be self-governing, or even sought to rule the kingdom. The relationship between the dwarfs and the other Narnian creatures is unclear at the moment.

2) How long after the Pevensies left did the Telmarines invade? What was the reason for the invasion? What was the political situation like in Narnia before the invasion? How long had the Telmarines been in Telmar before they moved to Narnia? Did the Telmarines make Narnia part of their Empire, or did they migrate en masse to Narnia, leaving Telmar behind? Was this migration sudden or gradual?
In order:
- Several hundred years, possibly even as many as a thousand.

- The text only says it was because of a famine. However, I wonder what the reason was for choosing Narnia in particular, since it seems to have been a long way from Telmar. Perhaps because Narnia had no king and was relatively undefended at that time. (I had earlier suggested, before seeing the bit about the famine, that Caspian the Conqueror probably had some kind of claim on the Narnian crown, either through intermarriage with royal houses, or being promised the throne in some kind of deal. I haven't completely ruled that out. At any rate, it seems that the Telmarine invasion of Narnia was not simply aggressive Empire-building since (1) the Telmarines appear to have left Telmar for Narnia, rather than annexing Narnia to a Telmarine empire, and (2) there appears to have been no attempt to invade Archenland, Ettinsmoor or the Islands.)

- I think it unlikely that there was a king in Narnia, but it was probably relatively stable and not in a serious crisis. This said, Aslan does say it "was in some disorder" and that the reason why it was is "a long story".

- Not sure. The timeline says they were in Telmar even before the Pevensies ruled in Narnia; I see no particular reason to dispute that.

- Already addressed above.

- It sounds like it was a one-time migration of the people out of Telmar and into Narnia, since the primary cause was famine in Telmar. At the end of PC, the impression is given that there are no Telmarines currently in Telmar; at the very least, there is no communication going on between Narnia and Telmar.

3) When and why was Aslan's How built? Was it soon after LWW or a long time? Was it before or after the Telmarine invasion?
I think it was before the Telmarine invasion. My guess is that it was built fairly soon after the Golden Age was over, at a time when the Narnians feared that their ancient traditions might be lost.

4) What was the relationship between the Telmarines and the Narnians? Was it one of hostility from the start, or were there times of peaceful co-existence that gradually developed into hostility?
I think Caspian I may have conquered with the intention of governing Narnia fairly. Though he was clearly making Telmarines the overlords, I don't think he was necessarily intending to wipe out the Narnians. However, over time, perhaps because of hostility from the Narnians (particularly the dwarfs) to Telmarine rule, the Telmarines and their kings became steadily more antipathetic to the old Narnians, and eventually tried to wipe out both them and their memory.

My evidence that there was a change in attitude would include the following:
- the fact that contact with the Lone Islands was not lost till later.
- the fact that "the sort of "History" taught in Narnia under Miraz's rule was duller than the truest history you ever read and less true than the most exciting adventure story" (PC ch 14) - why would Miraz need to teach a radically untrue history if the Telmarines had had no significant contact with the old Narnians since the conquest by Caspian I?
- the fact that some of the Telmarines, including powerful men such as the lords that Miraz had killed or exiled, seem to have been open to greater sympathy with the Narnians (I have suggested that it may have been dispute over this question that led Miraz to usurp his brother's throne).

I am also wondering whether there is significance in the new(ish) castle from which Miraz rules. Where did the Telmarine kings rule from before that? Does the building of a new castle have anything to do with a change of attitude towards the old Narnians? (That said, I think we have established that the early Telmarine kings almost certainly did not rule from Cair Paravel, which was probably already in ruins by the time they arrived, and at any rate already deserted.)

5) When and why and how did the forests begin to grow up? Had they already started to grow up before the Telmarine invasion? Were they planted deliberately or did they just grow up by accident?
I think they may have started to grow before the Telmarine invasion. I think there may have been attempts by kings from the Islands to rule Narnia, or at least to set up colonies on its east coast. The Narnians may have put the forests there at a form of protection. If it happened before the trees all went to sleep, possibly even the trees chose to migrate there to stand guard over the coastal regions.

As antipathy grew between the Telmarines and the Narnians, the Narnians may have seen the forests as their natural refuge, and the Telmarines come to see them as more and more dangerous places, so that they became afraid of them.

6) When and why did the Telmarines come to fear the woods and the sea? Was this a fear they brought with them from Telmar, or did it develop after arriving in Narnia?
As to the fear of the woods, this is covered in my answer to (5). Regarding the fear of the sea, it is clear that there continued to be contact with the Lone Islands until partway through the Telmarine rule, so the fear of the sea appears to have grown gradually. Perhaps the Narnians hostile to Telmarine rule were particularly dominant in the east of the country. Perhaps the ruins of Cair Paravel were a focal point for the resistance, which may be why the Telmarines dug a channel to cut it off from the mainland. However, they were also cutting themselves off from the sea. The Narnians' expectation that Aslan would return from over the sea to deliver them may also have driven a fear of the sea by the Telmarines.

7) What was the nature of Telmarine politics? Was there often conflict between competing claimants to the throne, or was Miraz's usurpation of the throne an unusual event in a normally peaceful line of undisputed father-to-son transitions?
I can see no reason to suggest that it was particularly tumultuous. I suspect that, as in any feudal society, the kings governed by seeking to please the most powerful nobles in the land, but the fact that there were ten kings all called Caspian, including the first and the last in the line, suggests that there was only one dynasty and that it was fairly stable.

Peeps
 
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"we can reasonably infer that there must have been at least a third lineage for the Calormenes"

Yes. I am just saying in this respect that the story doesn't provide us with any proof one way or the other. Jadis, in talking to Edmund in their first meeting, mentions that she had heard of doors to the world of men, but she would not have allowed anyone coming from those doors to live.

As for humans in Narnia, in the country itself, there were none. There may not have been many even when Jadis took over. However, humans were in the two southern countries as well as in the islands. It would be absurd that many Narnians would not have known about the humans to the south. Virtually the same year that Jadis was defeated, Luna and his wife took their twin sons to a wise centaur for a blessing. The mythology of humans was simply at odds with H&HB.

"You were assuming that the reason that they did not take Archenland or Ettinsmoor as well as Narnia was because they were unable to do so."

Yes, I tried to figure out why the Telmarines under Caspian I stopped at Narnia instead of going to the north or south. they wouldn't know anything about the national borders. Either they didn't care about the two arenas or they couldn't take them.

Caspian I also brought the Telmarnies into Narnia. Nothing has been stated that they went into Archenland to take it over before their Narnian invasion. Not by Doctor Cornelius nor by Aslan.

"They did in HHB and TLB."

Prince Rabadash had more interest in Susan than in northern expansion. And after that loss, Calormen lost its desire for northward expansion for the next millennium or more (however long it was until TLB).

"All we know is that there was some trade with the Lone Islands by the time of VDT; we know nothing about 'expansion'."

Not military expansion, but definitely cultural expansion. In the Golden Age, the Lone Islands were more Narnian. In VotDt, they were decidedly more Calrmene with the slave trade and currency.

MrBob
 
It does not appear to me that an Archenlander king took over Narnia, since there is no mention of such made at the end of HHB. Moreover, if they had done, it would have been likely to result in a union of the two countries under one king, which doesn't appear to have happened. However, it seems likely that the kings of Archenland may have taken a role as mediator of disputes within Narnia.es off from the sea. The Narnians' expectation that Aslan would return from over the sea to deliver them may also have driven a fear of the sea by the Telmarines. Peeps

But do we know how far into the Golden Age, i.e how long into the reign of the Pevensies that the events of HHB took place? There would be no mention of anyone taking over the Narnian throne as their sudden return to our world had not taken place and wasn't even expected to occur.
 
MrBob said:
As for humans in Narnia, in the country itself, there were none. There may not have been many even when Jadis took over. However, humans were in the two southern countries as well as in the islands. It would be absurd that many Narnians would not have known about the humans to the south. Virtually the same year that Jadis was defeated, Luna and his wife took their twin sons to a wise centaur for a blessing. The mythology of humans was simply at odds with H&HB.
I dealt with this question in the "Jadis's rise to power" thread, so I shan't do so again here, since I don't think it has any particular relevance here.

"You were assuming that the reason that they did not take Archenland or Ettinsmoor as well as Narnia was because they were unable to do so."

Yes, I tried to figure out why the Telmarines under Caspian I stopped at Narnia instead of going to the north or south. they wouldn't know anything about the national borders. Either they didn't care about the two arenas or they couldn't take them.
Yes, but if there was a particular reason why they felt they had a right to take Narnia, that would explain why they didn't care. That was the line of argument I was pursuing earlier, when I was seeking to make a parallel between the Telmarine conquest of Narnia and the Norman conquest of England. I have since seen the passage that says that the Telmarines left Telmar because of a famine, which makes that earlier suggestion less probable, but it still could have some merit.

Caspian I also brought the Telmarnies into Narnia. Nothing has been stated that they went into Archenland to take it over before their Narnian invasion. Not by Doctor Cornelius nor by Aslan.
Well, we seem to have different methodologies. You seem to want to insist that we should say nothing unless it is explicit in the books; but if we do that, we will never be able to construct a history of what happened because we just don't have the data. I am suggesting instead that in order to answer this question, we can suggest anything that is not directly contradicted by the books, and seek to weave together a plausible story that takes account of and explains all the unexplained details in the books. Of course, there could be any number of such stories, and so there is no reason why this thread cannot end up with a number of different, equally plausible possible histories. But every suggested history needs to be tested according to how well it explains the details in the books. I am working towards putting together what I consider to be the most plausible story. Others are welcome to put together different stories and explain why theirs is more plausible than mine.

Prince Rabadash had more interest in Susan than in northern expansion. And after that loss, Calormen lost its desire for northward expansion for the next millennium or more (however long it was until TLB).
Without having the book to hand right now, although Rabadash's immediate concern is about Susan, and avenging his honour that he thinks she has damaged, I seem to recall that the Tisroc's reason for authorising the attack is a desire to add the northern countries to his empire, which he had previously been prevented from doing by the White Witch. And in TLB, Tirian says that the Calormenes have "always wanted" the northern provinces.

Not military expansion, but definitely cultural expansion. In the Golden Age, the Lone Islands were more Narnian. In VotDt, they were decidedly more Calrmene with the slave trade and currency.
In fairness, we really know almost nothing about them in the Golden Age, beyond that they were Narnian dominions, as they were too in VDT.

Peeps
 
CORIN THUNDERFIST II said:
But do we know how far into the Golden Age, i.e how long into the reign of the Pevensies that the events of HHB took place? There would be no mention of anyone taking over the Narnian throne as their sudden return to our world had not taken place and wasn't even expected to occur.
I am referring to the 'happily ever after' bit at the very end of HHB. Since there is no mention of Lune or Cor or Corin becoming King of Narnia (the three obvious choices if Narnia took an Archenlander king), I am assuming they didn't. However, since Cor's son is called Ram the Great, I am speculating about what might have been 'Great' about him - the term is usually applied to kings who make their kingdom dominant over the surrounding region.

Peeps
 
" don't think it has any particular relevance here."

My only point was that there were two mainland societies and multiple ones on the islands as of the beginning of the Golden Age--large enough to have existed for hundreds of years.

Getting into that, with twelve starting Telmarine ancestors (six pirates and their wives), that would be two few to start a society.

"if there was a particular reason why they felt they had a right to take Narnia"

Their existence was part of it. The main question is when the fighting actually took place. Was there a period of peace and coexistence or was there fighting immediately? Coming from a place of famine, I could see a period where the Narnians helped the Telmarines until something happened that caused strife between the two parties.

"In fairness, we really know almost nothing about them in the Golden Age, beyond that they were Narnian dominions"

True, other than Felimath was mostly uninhabited. However, we can assume it was fairly peaceful if Lucy had been allowed to disembark there during her reign.

MrBob
 
MrBob said:
Getting into that, with twelve starting Telmarine ancestors (six pirates and their wives), that would be two few to start a society.
Not at all. Within a few generations a society could be flourishing; a few generations more and you could have a nation.

Besides, bear in mind that allegedly the whole of Narnia, Archenland and the Islands' human populations (pre-Telmar) were allegedly spawned from Frank and Helen.

Was there a period of peace and coexistence or was there fighting immediately? Coming from a place of famine, I could see a period where the Narnians helped the Telmarines until something happened that caused strife between the two parties.
I think the implication of the text is that Caspian the Conqueror both led his people into Narnia and conquered it. However, I think that his rule might not have been as antipathetic to the Narnians as that of, say, Miraz; perhaps even many of the Narnians submitted to and accepted Telmarine rule in the early days, especially if there had not been a human king there previously (remember Trufflehunter's words).

Peeps
 
I had earlier suggested, before seeing the bit about the famine, that Caspian the Conqueror probably had some kind of claim on the Narnian crown, either through intermarriage with royal houses, or being promised the throne in some kind of deal. I haven't completely ruled that out.

It's surely most important that a human monarch lead Narnia, but perhaps it is also important to have a lineage. I'd like to think that Caspian X, Caspian I and Frank can be connected fairly directly. Yes perhaps through intermarriages. But that could also suggest the men who came through the cave into Telmar being somehow related to Frank the Cabby (stranger things have happened). Or not. But why not?! And if not, then because Caspian X was such a good king (like his sucessors) he and his descendants remained on the throne. Had he not left such a legacy, surely some descendant of Frank's in Archenland or elsewhere might have emerged with a claim to the throne in Narnia. And do you have any thoughts on the kings between Rillian and Erlian? I would assume they were all benevolent.
 
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"Within a few generations a society could be flourishing; a few generations more and you could have a nation."

Peep, twelve people is not enough for a healthy start to a diverse population. First, we would hope that none of the original twelve were related. While it is possible that the pirates were unrelated, their wives came from an island native community--presumably small since the pirates killed the men.

The other problem is they entered into a new land with no technology. These pirates and their wives had to build shelter and find all their own provisions, completely exposed to the elements. It would be very difficult even to raise children for probably the first decade or so until they had tamed the land.

"perhaps even many of the Narnians submitted to and accepted Telmarine rule in the early days"

That's what I mean. How long were they in Narnia before things got to war. Did he come in, swords swinging or did he come in to a welcoming people?

MrBob
 
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