Vanyar, Noldor, or Teleri?

  • Vanyar--Favorite of Manwe and Varda

    Votes: 2 12.5%
  • Noldor--Known for wisdom and invention

    Votes: 9 56.3%
  • Teleri (Sea-elves) Known for song and as builders of ships

    Votes: 3 18.8%
  • Teleri (Sindar)--Remained in Beleriand under Thingol and Melian

    Votes: 2 12.5%

  • Total voters
    16

King Tirian

New member
I just finished reading the magician's nephew and noticed a similarity between it and JRR Tolkein's Silmarillion (LOTR). If anyone hasn't read it, it is basically the history of middle earth from the very beginning. Anywho, the beginning of Narnia was the result of Aslan singing correct? Well in the Silmarillion, middle earth's universe is also created, if I remember correctly, from singing voices. Just a funny similarity I wanted to convey.
 
The Music of the Spheres. No big mystery there.

In Jewish Mysticism, when God said "Let there be light" he did not pronounce four words whose meanings symbolically represented actual objects, actions and relationships. He actually pronounced the substances.

The Kabbalah says that the sounds of God's voice are the elements that make up the universe. In an odd way, it was a kind of atomic theory and string theory combined into one.

The universe would have been sung into being. Lewis and Tolkein, being scholarly men from the days of a true "classical education" would have been acquainted with this.

KT, it was very sharp of you to pick up on that. You didn't just skim the works, you really read them. ;x)

John
 
Wow. I just started reading the Silmarillion, and I didn't remember the similiareties in the creation of the worlds. The only thing I remembered being similar to something was the fact that Melkor(Morgoth) was like Lucifer.
 
Also remember that Tolkien and Lewis were friends and would bring their ideas and transcripts to the Eagle and Child for Inklings meetings. Like mentioned before, they were both professors and were acquainted with the same ways of thinking and ideologies. Though Tolkien was Roman Catholic and Lewis was Protestant, they both shared many theological ideas and views.

As a related obervation--The interesting thing about it though is that, apart from Aslan and the Valar (under the instruction of Eru) singing the creation into existence, there are precious few--if any--other similarities between the books. I've read both books several times and other than the created worlds both being places that capture and stir the imagination and the people/creatures beings ones you wish you could meet in Heaven :D there are not similarities in story, characters, or landscape. In fact, they even have opposite directions for their eternal lands--Tolkien's being Valinor in the WEST and Lewis' being Aslan's Country in the EAST. :)
 
Perhaps Mr. Lewis meant that as imagining that his world and Mr. Tolkien's were on opposite sides of Heaven--though not "opposite" in a hostile sense. If you read "Pilgrim's Regress," you'll see there that Mr. Lewis had a sort of concept of Heaven being approached from either of two opposite sides.
 
I have contemplated the East v. West concept between Lewis and Tolkien. Perhaps if one uses their imagination (this is a little crazy), maybe if one goes far enough east in Middle-Earth, and one goes far enough west from Narnia, then maybe they will meet somewhere in the middle! Just a thought. It really comes down to if Narnia's world is really round or flat, because it is said in the Silmarillion that Middle-Earth became round.
 
That is an interesting idea General. And it could be an answer to the east v. west mystery. What lies west beyond the Garden of Youth and east beyond the Land of Mordor.....
 
I think I also heard someone say once, maybe it was my husband, that if you look at the maps there are similarities in shape, just kind of flipped? Has anyone else noticed or heard of this?
 
It really comes down to if Narnia's world is really round or flat, because it is said in the Silmarillion that Middle-Earth became round.

Wasn't there a discussion in Voyage of the Dawn Treader about Narnia being flat? Eustace was explaining how our Earth was round, not like a table, but like a ball or something, and Caspian said that Narnia had fairytales about lands that were round, which is opposite of our fairytales/myths which involve a flat Earth. There was a fear with the Narnian sailors about sailing off the Eastern edge of the World and Lewis described (I wish I had my book) something like a wall of blue water that formed the edge, separating the known world from Aslan's Country. I hope I got all my facts right! I can feel lost without my book for reference! :confused:
 
Wasn't there a discussion in Voyage of the Dawn Treader about Narnia being flat? Eustace was explaining how our Earth was round, not like a table, but like a ball or something, and Caspian said that Narnia had fairytales about lands that were round, which is opposite of our fairytales/myths which involve a flat Earth. There was a fear with the Narnian sailors about sailing off the Eastern edge of the World and Lewis described (I wish I had my book) something like a wall of blue water that formed the edge, separating the known world from Aslan's Country. I hope I got all my facts right! I can feel lost without my book for reference! :confused:

Gotcha covered:
"I can't understand this. There is not a breath of wind. The sail hangs dead. The sea is as flat as a pond. And yet we drive on as fast as if there were a gale behind us." "I've been thinking that too," said Caspian. "We must be caught in some current." "H'm," said Edmund. "That's not so nice if the world really has en edge and we're getting near it." "You mean," said Caspian, "that we might be just-well, poured over it?" "Yes, yes," cried Reepicheep, clapping his paws together. "That's how I've always imagined it-the world like a great round table and the waters of all the oceans endlessly pouring over the edge. The ship will tip up-stand on her head-for one moment we shall see over the edge-and then down, down, the rush, the speed-"
"And what do you think will be waiting for us at the bottom eh?" said Drinian. "Aslan's country perhaps," said the Mouse, its eyes shining. "Or perhaps there isn't any bottom. Perhaps it goes down for ever and ever. But whatever it is, won't it be worth anything just to have looked for one moment beyond the edge of the world."
"But look here," said Eustace, "this is all rot. The world's round-I mean, round like a ball, not like a table." "Our world is," said Edmund. "But is this?"
"Do you mean to say,"asked Caspian, "that you three come from a round world (round like a ball) and you've never told me! It's really too bad for you. Because we have fairy tales in which there are round worlds and I have always loved them. I never believed there were any real ones. But I've always wished there were and I've always longed to live in one. Oh, and I'd give anything-I wonder why you can get into our world and we never get into yours? If only I had the chance! It must be exciting to live on a thing like a ball. Have you ever been to the parts where people walk about upside-down?"......
 
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I love that bit! But wait, it's Narnia, I love most bits! Thanks King Tirian!

James A. Owen wrote about this sort of thing in Here There Be Dragons as well in the archelpeligo. I'm sure that was influenced with this bit from VDT and from Tolkein's work too.
 
I just finished reading the magician's nephew and noticed a similarity between it and JRR Tolkein's Silmarillion (LOTR). If anyone hasn't read it, it is basically the history of middle earth from the very beginning. Anywho, the beginning of Narnia was the result of Aslan singing correct? Well in the Silmarillion, middle earth's universe is also created, if I remember correctly, from singing voices. Just a funny similarity I wanted to convey.

Well the stories just seem similar because they are both about the creation of a world. But I find the one in the Silmarillion to be much more intricate and detailed. Also it involved the singing of (so called) angels. And in MN, only Aslan is singing. Also the creation of Narnia comes directly from Aslan's head whereas the singing and thoughts of the angels is what creates Middle-earth! So there really aren't too many similarities. Actually the entire series of CoN is kinds what's in the entirety of The Silmarillion. Melkor is their (devil), and Tash is the devil in CoN. There are many more similarities between the CoN series and the Silmarillion...but I don't have the patience to list them all, haha :D
 
Well the stories just seem similar because they are both about the creation of a world. But I find the one in the Silmarillion to be much more intricate and detailed. Also it involved the singing of (so called) angels. And in MN, only Aslan is singing. Also the creation of Narnia comes directly from Aslan's head whereas the singing and thoughts of the angels is what creates Middle-earth! So there really aren't too many similarities. Actually the entire series of CoN is kinds what's in the entirety of The Silmarillion. Melkor is their (devil), and Tash is the devil in CoN. There are many more similarities between the CoN series and the Silmarillion...but I don't have the patience to list them all, haha :D
Actually, in MN it says that Aslan's voice is joined by many other voices (I think it says the voices were stars).

As to the thoughts of the "angels" in The Silmarillion creating the world. That isn't entirely true (if I understood Sil correctly) because they were singing things that came from Illuvatar's (Eru) thoughts...If I remember correctly.
 
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Actually, in MN it says that Aslan's voice is joined by many other voices.

As to the thoughts of the "angels" in The Silmarillion creating the world. That isn't entirely true (if I understood Sil correctly) because they were singing things that came from Illuvatar's (Eru) thoughts...If I remember correctly.

MN: True, but those were the voices of the stars. I do not believe they were involved in the creation. That was still entirely Aslan. TS: And you are correct that the "theme" came from Illuvatar, however the Valar were able to include their own thoughts, which is how Melkor created the disharmony and the other Valar had specific things they had "charge" over (water, plants, stars, etc.)
 
I'm reading the The Silmarillion now, and Illuvatar is pretty much in charge. The people that make up the Valar sang for Illuvatar originally, and then as Elentari said, disharmony was created and then the vision of Ea (or Arda) was shown. We don't quite get this beginning in MN, since Aslan has already created the basic world when everyone arrives, and he is the primary singer. I can't quite remember about the stars or not.
 
Silmarillion: Vanyar, Noldor, or Teleri?

If you could be a part of the Eldalie, the three kindreds of Elves who traveled to Valinor, which kindred would you be a part of?

1. The Vanyar--the Fair Elves--led by Ingwe, the High King over all Elves. They were the first to enter Valinor, the beloved of Manwe and Varda, and they live at the feet of the Powers. None ever returned to Middle Earth.

2. The Noldor--the Deep Elves--lead by Finwe. They were known as wise, friends of Aule, renowned in song for their deeds in Valinor and Middle Earth. They sought after knowledge and skill, with their hands and in the invention of new words. The most famous of the Noldor were Feanor (son of Finwe), the creator of the Silmarils, and Galadriel (granddaughter of Finwe), Lady of Lothlorien.

3a. The Teleri--Sea-Elves--who were the last to arrive in Valinor. Led by brothers, Elwe and Olwe, the Teleri became friends of Osse, lord of the seas, who taught them sea-lore and music, for they were gifted singers. The Teleri were split before arriving in Valinor. Those who went followed Olwe and settled by the sea in Eldamar (Alqualonde and Tol Eressea). They built mansions of pearl and built ships in the shape of swans.

3b. Those who remained lived near Beleriand under Elwe (Thingol of Doriath). They became known as the Sindar and did not journey into Valinor until the world was changed after the Fall of Morgoth (and even then not all went).
 
Vanyar all the way!! I would want to be one of the elves of the light! To see the trees of light would be amazing! I couldn't imagine being of the elves who didn't get to see that!
 
Vanyar all the way!! I would want to be one of the elves of the light! To see the trees of light would be amazing! I couldn't imagine being of the elves who didn't get to see that!

Actually, Mrs. P, the Noldor and the Teleri saw the trees of light also. :D The Teleri not so much, but the Noldor and Vanyar lived in very close proximity until the Noldor left for Middle Earth. Sorry if I wasn't very clear! But I know what you mean. Varda is my fav. of the Powers, though I am personally a Teleri at heart. :D
 
Actually, Mrs. P, the Noldor and the Teleri saw the trees of light also. :D The Teleri not so much, but the Noldor and Vanyar lived in very close proximity until the Noldor left for Middle Earth. Sorry if I wasn't very clear! But I know what you mean. Varda is my fav. of the Powers, though I am personally a Teleri at heart. :D

oh yes, I haven't read the book in a while...so I went off your description!
 
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