The Dancing Lawn - Official Forums of Narnia Fans
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   The Dancing Lawn - Official Forums of Narnia Fans > The Stone Table > The Socratic Club

The Socratic Club A club that Lewis founded at Oxford. A forum devoted to general philosophical and spiritual discussion

View Poll Results: Catholics and Protestants, which one are you?
Protestant 11 45.83%
Catholic 10 41.67%
Orthodox 0 0%
Anglican Catholic (Episcopalian/Anglican) 3 12.50%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #51  
Old 05-01-2012, 08:35 AM
EveningStar's Avatar
EveningStar EveningStar is offline
Mage Scribe
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Byron on Wells
Posts: 7,070
EveningStar has disabled reputation
Default

I have to smile at the idea of "going to the trouble to attend Mass" as if the amount of work involved was the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism.

There are those of us who wonder why there has to be a relatively recent doctrinal statement that, after centuries of speculation, it is now REQUIRED FOR CORRECT BELIEF that you accept the Blessed Virgin Mary was physically assumed into Heaven as was Christ and Elijah. Pardon me for saying so, but that's between her and her God. It is offputting to be told that I cannot in all good conscience consider myself a Catholic in good standing unless I accept that one possible interpretation as fact. I'm not saying it didn't happen, that it couldn't happen, or even that it likely did not happen. It probably did. I just don't want to be forced to accept that it definitely did when it's not in the canon of Scripture.

Church doctrine should concentrate on salvation. That which is required for good standing should be kept to the minimum. I say that not to refute Catholicism but rather as constructive criticism for the future.
__________________
EveningStar / John Burkitt - magescribe@comcast.net

Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 05-01-2012, 05:09 PM
~Lava~'s Avatar
~Lava~ ~Lava~ is offline
Friend of Narnia
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: ghosting back and forth between forum and reality
Posts: 5,383
~Lava~ will become famous soon enough~Lava~ will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Badger View Post
I want to read this thread and learn why our friends believe as they do in the spirit of a spiritual menu-offering. " Here, this is what nourishes me--would you care for a sample?" When you say a glutinous man, I picture Luther as The Blob, leaving a sticky bit of himself to put up those theses--lol. Silly me.
As for me, I was converted via 700 Club, walked the pentecostal way for 20 years, then missed liturgical worship from my classical music training in college. Lutheran for two years in NJ, then met ES, moved to TN, and became Methodist
to attend where he does. He also introduced me to Anglican-Episcopal thought and ways of worship where I am finding a lot to love despite the inner controversies that plague nearly every denomination. I am currently watching a lot of YouTubevideos titled "Father Matthew Presents" that turn my spiritual crank. Seeking a deeper walk with God for me is a balance of awe and frustration that He is so subtle when I want Him to ne more obvious. But just when I feel neglected I get a God-breeze that only He could give that is so encouraging. I am finding this more and more in the Eucharist and the liturgy.
Agnus Dei, qui tolis peccatta mundi, pax hominibum! (Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world, grant us peace). That has come to speak to my heart much more deeply than singing "Jesus is just alright with me!" I love that, as an American, I can change so much and still be a Christian and have the freedom to worship Him in many different ways. (heroic music fade)
Lady Badger: When asked why, despite many attempts from people to undermine my Catholic faith or to show me that their denomination is a great, and spirit-filled, church, I remain Catholic, I find myself talking about what you talk about. The richness and how the liturgy speaks to me. The Eucharist, which, quite frankly, I do not think I could live without (the few times I have been unable to attend Mass on Sunday during my life, the following week nothing went right). I will also say that I have only been to one Anglican service, the Pentecost Sung Communion at Westminster Abbey and it was quite beautiful, and in some ways, I find myself drawn to it because the Catholic Church still has a long way to go before it perfectly blends the rich history that is the Latin Mass to the English tongue. I will be honest when I say that while it is a step in the right direction, the New Roman Missal still falls short of what the Anglican Church has been able to do with the words of the Mass in English. I will not go as far as to become Anglican, but should there ever be a community of Anglicans who have come back into Communion with the Catholic Church near where I live, I would be more than willing to go to the Anglican-Use Masses there.

ES: I have always been told that all of the Marian Doctrine, and all of Mary's titles, point to Christ. Ex: Mary, Mother of God, is not elevating Mary to a status equal or above Christ, rather it is affirming that, by being the mother of Christ, Who is God, she is, by default, the mother of God. In the same way, Mary is considered to be Assumed into Heaven, because of her role as Tabernacle to Christ, while He was in her womb. The Doctrine is that Christ brought His mother's body, His Tabernacle, up to Heaven so that she would not suffer the decay of death. One would not let the Ark of the Covenant molder and rust in a grave; Mary was the Ark of the New Covenant.
__________________
Self-Appointed Polish Inspector and Official Member of the Brotherhood of the Can
LAVA Rules!!!!

Celebrate International TDL Day with me on December 6th. Wear Green and bake Cookies





Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 05-01-2012, 06:38 PM
EveningStar's Avatar
EveningStar EveningStar is offline
Mage Scribe
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Byron on Wells
Posts: 7,070
EveningStar has disabled reputation
Default

Gently, Lava, I point out that the value of declaring the Marian physical assumption in the Church's role in saving souls is rather dubious.

It would be somewhat akin to the Methodist Church having an official doctrine on whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone when he shot JFK. Imagine waking up to the injunction that a REAL Methodist knows in his heart and professes as fact that there was a second gunman behind the grassy knoll.

By declaring dogma that goes beyond the governance of the Church and the instruction and edification of the Soul, barriers are erected that make a Protestant's conversion to Catholicism more unlikely.

I am aware that it is a source of great inspiration to many Catholics worldwide to see a woman clean of the fall of man honoured by the Almighty as a sign of her special role in history. But while this doctrine is approved for teaching and praying, it is counterproductive to cling to it as a key teaching of the Faith if there is hope for a reconciliation of the broken Christian body with Protestants who just think of her as a kind lady chosen to do a big job.
__________________
EveningStar / John Burkitt - magescribe@comcast.net

Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 05-02-2012, 01:17 AM
~Lava~'s Avatar
~Lava~ ~Lava~ is offline
Friend of Narnia
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: ghosting back and forth between forum and reality
Posts: 5,383
~Lava~ will become famous soon enough~Lava~ will become famous soon enough
Default

It is a teaching because of her role in the Salvation story, it is also a teaching that has its roots in the Bible. Elijah and Christ are not the only people in the Bible who came into heaven without suffering the decay of death. Enoch was assumed into heaven as well, and it says in the Bible that Enoch walked with the Lord and the Lord took him. It is a logical progression from the Catholic belief that Mary was saved from sin at conception and God guarded her from sin through out her life so that she would be able to be the Ark of the New Covenant to say that because she was sinless, she did not suffer sin's wages, Death. I am not going to say that I understand it completely, ES, nor am I going to say in the ten years I have been highly involved with the RCIA efforts in my Parish that the people who come into the Church are 100% sure they believe the doctrine when they come in. It is my understanding that it is one of the most troubling doctrines that the Church teaches, and often times it is the acknowledgement that they they the Church is right on so many other things that overcomes the doubt on this matter. I do not find my lack of understanding to be an obstacle to my belief, but then too, I have grown up with it so I really have no understanding what it is like to NOT believe it.
__________________
Self-Appointed Polish Inspector and Official Member of the Brotherhood of the Can
LAVA Rules!!!!

Celebrate International TDL Day with me on December 6th. Wear Green and bake Cookies





Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 05-02-2012, 12:16 PM
inkspot's Avatar
inkspot inkspot is offline
Beloved Disciple
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: State of Bliss
Posts: 15,996
inkspot is just really niceinkspot is just really niceinkspot is just really niceinkspot is just really niceinkspot is just really nice
Default

We can believe many things we can't understand; as CSL pointed out, we believe in the efficacy of vitamins, even if we don't understand how they work. But there are relatively few things required to be saved by the redeeming work of Christ -- basically you believe He is the Son of God who died and rose again, and you ask Him to forgive you of your sins. Why should it be necessary for salvation that you also believe something in particular did or didn't happen to His mother? I agree with ES. Teaching the Assumption is good if it brings comfort and joy to Catholics (and anyone else who venerates Mary). But insisting that believing in it is a requirement for Christ to save you, that is an artificial barrier placed between man and Jesus. And I don't think Jesus likes that. He wants everyone to come to Him, and if He thought His mother was holding people back from coming to Him, He would move even the BVM out of the way. But of course, she would never hold people back from coming to Him! A Church that insisted anything about her was crucial to salvation might, though.
__________________
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.... 2 Corinthians 5:17
Dame Jax, the Just O.L. -- Officially Elected Dancing Lawn Mum


________
Read my Story Dragonfly Link to my Dragonfly website! Jaxys Dragonfly
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 05-02-2012, 01:19 PM
EveningStar's Avatar
EveningStar EveningStar is offline
Mage Scribe
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Byron on Wells
Posts: 7,070
EveningStar has disabled reputation
Default

In defence of Catholicism, I doubt they think any Marian doctrines effect one's salvation. The only one that might seem to do so is accepting that Christ was born of a Virgin, not conceived by a human father.
__________________
EveningStar / John Burkitt - magescribe@comcast.net

Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 05-02-2012, 03:30 PM
Pardine's Avatar
Pardine Pardine is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 814
Pardine has a spectacular aura aboutPardine has a spectacular aura about
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EveningStar View Post
In defence of Catholicism, I doubt they think any Marian doctrines effect one's salvation. The only one that might seem to do so is accepting that Christ was born of a Virgin, not conceived by a human father.
I was under the impression that that was a universally accepted belief amongst protestants as well, though..

Luther thought she was a virgin and that Jesus did not have an earthly father, IIRC.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 05-02-2012, 03:49 PM
EveningStar's Avatar
EveningStar EveningStar is offline
Mage Scribe
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Byron on Wells
Posts: 7,070
EveningStar has disabled reputation
Default

Whoa, Pardine. I was not contrasting the beliefs of Catholicism and Protestantism. I was contrasting the soteriological significance of one Catholic Marian doctrine to other Catholic Marian doctrines. I consider it scientific heresy to doubt the distance between Cincinnati and Cleveland, but there won't be people in hell for not believing in it. There are other beliefs about Cincinnati and Cleveland that are salvation issues, such as the right of people living there not to be murdered or robbed.

Yes I MYSELF BELIEVE that Mary was a virgin when Christ was born, absolutely completely and totally. I don't have "fall back" positions on everything that 21st century sceptics might find hard to believe. A God who creates a universe from scratch would find it simple to make a virgin have a baby. That's like a person acknowledging that a human being built and loaded a computer from scratch, but then needing some sort of fallback position on how the screensaver options changed that would not rely on an intelligent hand moving the mouse and clicking it.

Jesus brought salvation, not philosophy. He didn't wake up one morning, see the beautiful sunrise, smack himself on the forehead and say, "You know, people ought to do to one another what they want others to do to them!" He was exceptional in type not amount, and his birth was not a stunt, it was a joining of divine and earthly.

And if one wants to fit the immaculate conception into some sort of naturalisic view of the world, go right ahead. Because it's ALL nature. Miracles are a natural process that outdates the universe itself. They are the original nature and all characteristics of all things in the universe took their being from this original nature, the nature that is the Living Word. Natural is that which is not unnatural, and since God is everywhere and has always been and shall ever be, his power and wisdom are the most natural thing of all.

Just so you know where I stand.
__________________
EveningStar / John Burkitt - magescribe@comcast.net


Last edited by EveningStar; 05-02-2012 at 04:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 05-02-2012, 03:49 PM
inkspot's Avatar
inkspot inkspot is offline
Beloved Disciple
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: State of Bliss
Posts: 15,996
inkspot is just really niceinkspot is just really niceinkspot is just really niceinkspot is just really niceinkspot is just really nice
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EveningStar View Post
In defence of Catholicism, I doubt they think any Marian doctrines effect one's salvation. The only one that might seem to do so is accepting that Christ was born of a Virgin, not conceived by a human father.
Oh, my mistake. I thought you had said that it was now required for Catholics to believe this, but I see -- it is required in order to be a Catholic that you believe this, but not required in order for you to be saved by Christ? That's good then. Thanks for the clarification.
__________________
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.... 2 Corinthians 5:17
Dame Jax, the Just O.L. -- Officially Elected Dancing Lawn Mum


________
Read my Story Dragonfly Link to my Dragonfly website! Jaxys Dragonfly
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 05-02-2012, 04:28 PM
EveningStar's Avatar
EveningStar EveningStar is offline
Mage Scribe
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Byron on Wells
Posts: 7,070
EveningStar has disabled reputation
Default

There is a problem in saying what "Catholics" do or even what "Popes" believe since generalizations are flawed from the starting shot. There are certain cultural trends (and one has to wisely separate Catholic CULTURE from Catholic DOCTRINE) that make people feel uncomfortable away from what they're used to.

Many Protestants think Catholics are morbidly obsesed with Christ's suffering on the cross and Mary's role in God's plan of salvation. Catholics go into a Nazarene church and the look and feel of the sanctuary seems about as churchy feeling as a university classroom or a movie theatre.

These are cultural things. When it comes down to the nitty-gritty, the bare minimum things a person should know not to get turned away by God at the judgment, the vast majority of these cultural things have nothing whatever to do with it. That includes doctrines too, such as what David's brothers' names were or how many days Jesus fasted in the wilderness after he was baptized.

We need to set aside our cultural differences to find those things which put souls in peril and pull together from both sides of the divide to heal the schisms.

I go beyond the usual platitude of saying that some of my best friends are Catholic. I remember back when saying, "Well I tipped the shoe shine boy well" was considered a sufficient disclamer for being a racial bigot. Going farther meant going to extreme pains to understand as fully as humanly possible my own theological stand and those of my neighbours rather than just doing it this way because that's the way it's always been done. And if the fact I've changed some things in my own beliefs and practices over the years means my pursuit was more than window dressing, let the record stand for itself.

In His Name,

John
__________________
EveningStar / John Burkitt - magescribe@comcast.net

Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:00 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2003-2014, NarniaFans.com