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The Socratic Club A club that Lewis founded at Oxford. A forum devoted to general philosophical and spiritual discussion

View Poll Results: Catholics and Protestants, which one are you?
Protestant 11 45.83%
Catholic 10 41.67%
Orthodox 0 0%
Anglican Catholic (Episcopalian/Anglican) 3 12.50%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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  #41  
Old 04-22-2012, 10:02 PM
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I agree with you ES that mass makes the Catholic Church not the Vatican. I also want to stress than I am not against structure and authority in the Church. One of the reasons I am not a Baptist anymore is the lack of authority of the pastor over the congregation. In a Baptist church boards and the congregation run the church and the pastor in the end becomes a hireling. This leads to lazy congregations and pastors that are afraid to challenge their boards and congregations. I have since been going to Calvary Chapel type churches where the Pastor chooses his boards and leadership while staying independent and self governing. Now while this type of church government has its draw backs, it does show that I expect my pastor to have authority in the church and I respect his teachings. Have a nice day.
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  #42  
Old 04-22-2012, 10:28 PM
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I CAN'T have a nice day, Timmy! It's DARK outside!
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  #43  
Old 04-23-2012, 12:39 AM
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As a Catholic, I both agree and disagree with that statement. The Mass is the integral and central part of Catholic worship. The Catholic Church would not be the Catholic Church without it. However, to exclude the Hierarchy's role in preserving the Mass, Church Teachings, and even the integrity of the Bible, is grossly underestimating the role it has played, possibly catastrophically so. The Church Hierarchy is the reason we have a Biblical Canon in the first place. It is the Catholic Bishops during the Councils of Hippo, Carthage, and Trent who, after much prayer, choose which of the hundreds of Religious texts, Gospel accounts, and Epistles were the Inspired Word of God. Again, I am sorry for stepping on toes, but that statement does not encompass the whole truth to well-educated Catholics. The Mass (from missa-Latin for Sending) is meant to strengthen the Catholic and enable them to do Christ's work in World. We are fed with the Word of God and the Eucharist at Mass so that we have what we need carry on the Mission of Christ. Ite missa est. It is the Sending.
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  #44  
Old 04-23-2012, 06:52 AM
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Lava, you misunderstood. When I said that the heirarchy was there to make sure the mass happened, that's exactly what I meant. And that includes training and ordaining priests and deciding what would be in the mass and where the Church stands on abortion and what languages services and publications would be in and paying for the building and all those other things you think I'm not seeing but I really, really do.

My point is that from the perspective of the individual congregant, "church" is where he/she goes to church each week.

Priests assist congregants in being saved Christians.
Bishops enable Priests to do their job.
Archbishops enable Bishops to do their job.
Cardinals enable....well, you get me.

A well run naval base should have first aid kits aboard all ships bigger than a launch, but no one wants to get the Admiral out of bed to ask him where they keep the gauze.

Lest you forget, I have an Archbishop of Canterbury and Anglican Communion and whatnot. I understand all about connectional churches and the episcopate. ;-)
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Last edited by EveningStar; 04-23-2012 at 06:54 AM.
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  #45  
Old 04-23-2012, 04:39 PM
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I didn't take the poll cuz I, like Lila, refuse the labels.

The Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church tells the story of serving communion/eucahrist at an old folks home and immediately afterward someone accosted her and told her she had given the body and blood of Christ to a Jewish woman! (And wasn't she ashamed of herself?!) Just then a man approached and thanked her for serving communion to his mother, the Jewish lady.

"She gets confused. She's never gone up to receive the eucharist before, and I didn't know how to stop her ..." he said. "Thank you for not embarrassing her."

The conclusion the bishop draws is that the Church is in the business of scattering abroad the love of Christ, and if a Jewish person receives it along with everyone else, I think that would rather please Jesus than distress him. That's my view of this whole business. FWIW
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  #46  
Old 04-23-2012, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EveningStar View Post
Lava, you misunderstood. When I said that the heirarchy was there to make sure the mass happened, that's exactly what I meant. And that includes training and ordaining priests and deciding what would be in the mass and where the Church stands on abortion and what languages services and publications would be in and paying for the building and all those other things you think I'm not seeing but I really, really do.

My point is that from the perspective of the individual congregant, "church" is where he/she goes to church each week.

Priests assist congregants in being saved Christians.
Bishops enable Priests to do their job.
Archbishops enable Bishops to do their job.
Cardinals enable....well, you get me.

A well run naval base should have first aid kits aboard all ships bigger than a launch, but no one wants to get the Admiral out of bed to ask him where they keep the gauze.

Lest you forget, I have an Archbishop of Canterbury and Anglican Communion and whatnot. I understand all about connectional churches and the episcopate. ;-)
Actually, I was basing my comment on the comment from TimmyofOz. Not you ES.

I actually couldn't find the original comment that it referred to.
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  #47  
Old 04-24-2012, 02:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EveningStar View Post
Catholicism doesn't happen in the Vatican, it happens at mass. The Pope is there to make sure you have a mass to go to.
Well Lava I was referring to ES, post 37. Even though I am not Catholic, much of my family is, and there nothing that holds the RCC more than the Mass. An army could overrun the Vatican and force it for Italy and the church would still exit throu the Mass. Have a nice day.
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  #48  
Old 04-24-2012, 06:43 AM
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I suppose I should clarify. The Heidelberg Principle is what I allude to, the subtle distinction between a leader who seeks followers and a leader who seeks ways to give people leadership. The first is prideful, the second is sacrificial. The ideal King, Pope or for that matter Bus Driver is someone who provides a service that people need to realize their potential. In other words, they only succeed when YOU succeed.
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  #49  
Old 04-30-2012, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EveningStar View Post
I suppose I should clarify. The Heidelberg Principle is what I allude to, the subtle distinction between a leader who seeks followers and a leader who seeks ways to give people leadership. The first is prideful, the second is sacrificial. The ideal King, Pope or for that matter Bus Driver is someone who provides a service that people need to realize their potential. In other words, they only succeed when YOU succeed.
Thanks for remembering us bus drivers, honey
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  #50  
Old 04-30-2012, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahyperdude View Post
What's so wrong about the Catholic church that you can't join it anyway? Yes Protestantism offers more comfort and room, yes it was founded by a glutinous man, but you SHOULD be willing to make sacrifices for eternal life right? Going to Masses said by priests doesn't take that much effort.
I want to read this thread and learn why our friends believe as they do in the spirit of a spiritual menu-offering. " Here, this is what nourishes me--would you care for a sample?" When you say a glutinous man, I picture Luther as The Blob, leaving a sticky bit of himself to put up those theses--lol. Silly me.
As for me, I was converted via 700 Club, walked the pentecostal way for 20 years, then missed liturgical worship from my classical music training in college. Lutheran for two years in NJ, then met ES, moved to TN, and became Methodist
to attend where he does. He also introduced me to Anglican-Episcopal thought and ways of worship where I am finding a lot to love despite the inner controversies that plague nearly every denomination. I am currently watching a lot of YouTubevideos titled "Father Matthew Presents" that turn my spiritual crank. Seeking a deeper walk with God for me is a balance of awe and frustration that He is so subtle when I want Him to ne more obvious. But just when I feel neglected I get a God-breeze that only He could give that is so encouraging. I am finding this more and more in the Eucharist and the liturgy.
Agnus Dei, qui tolis peccatta mundi, pax hominibum! (Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world, grant us peace). That has come to speak to my heart much more deeply than singing "Jesus is just alright with me!" I love that, as an American, I can change so much and still be a Christian and have the freedom to worship Him in many different ways. (heroic music fade)
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Last edited by Lady Badger; 04-30-2012 at 08:45 PM.
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