There is something about Tashbaan..

In your opinion you mean. We shouldn't endeavor to close the lines of interpretation. I am saying that Tashbaan is a Jerusalem being occupied by the Calormens for hundreds and hundreds of years (just like the Ottomans). Whoever they conquered could have been Narnian. An expansive history of the Calormens is not in the Chronicles; so that leaves it open to different possible interpretations.
Well yes, but the interpretations have to be within the context of what is known and have to make sense in that respect. Otherwise anyone could argue anything. For example I could say that Tashbaan was actually an entire city that somehow was brought to the Narnian world from Saturn's moon Enceladus, in our own universe. The former inhabitants of that city died out due to Saturn's rings having emitted unusually high radiation levels for at least a century (in Saturnine years, of course). The aliens thought that this crazy local tribe from the desert of the Narnian world could benefit from such a cool city so so they brought it there somehow. By your argument, who's to say I'm wrong?
 
India is where I always placed Calormen's origins. There is even a god that is similar in attributes to Tash. I will admit that, yes, there are elements of Turkey, maybe, in Calormen culture. I see more Indian than Turkish though, especially if you throw in the the description of the inhabitants. Turkish people tend toward the olive-skinned complexion of the Mediterranean region. Indian people are have darker complexions. So much so that some British authors called them blacks (Frances Hodgson Burnett in Secret Garden would be one such author). If you read the description of India that Frances Hodgson Burnett gives one would see why my mind automatically goes to India.


I cannot see any relationship between God's Holy City and Tashbaan, the only thing might be the hill that leads up to the temple, but that is it. Jerusalem is not the only city where the Temple is at the highest point. Like someone else said, more parallels can be drawn between Narnia and Jerusalem. As to the conquering/re-conquering of Calormen, the implication of Rabadash the Ridiculous is that Calormen, except during the reign of that Rabadash was an ever-expanding tyrannical empire; the big fish that preyed of the little fish in the pond. HHB was pretty specific that Calormen was the dominant power in the Narnian world and that the Tisroc had the numbers when it came to a land battle. Lewis also states that Rabadash was far more concerned about interior threats to his power than exterior, he was peaceful because he did not want his generals to get the glory for winning battles because, I quote, "for that is the way Tisrocs get overthrown." Indeed, other books that deal with Calormenes and Calormen make it clear that Calormen is the most powerful, the Lone Islanders use the Crescent and the Minim. Calormen was NOT the constantly conquered Jerusalem, rather it was more like the constantly expanding Rome.
 
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~Lava~ said:
India is where I always placed Calormen's origins.

Maybe that explains why all my tech support calls for computer problems are answered by Calormenes. :D

Believe me, they ARE an evil empire. The hold times, the accent, and the insistence on reading the nine mile serial number under the rubber foot way in the back. EEEEEVIL.
 
If we are going to go to conquered nation-states, Narnia was conquered a number of times. First by Jadis, then by Aslan and the Pevensies, then by Caspian I an the Telmarines, then by Caspian X with the help of Aslan and the Pevensies. It finally was attacked for the last time, by the Calormenes.MrBob

I hope I don't come across as pedantic, but I would suggest that Narnia was NOT conquered by Aslan and the Pevensies, nor by Aslan and Caspian X with the help of the Pevensies. In my humble opinion, it was more a case of Aslan reclaiming what was rightfully his.
 
Correct. The word "liberated" springs to mind. Practically BoUnCeS to mind. It was liberated by Aslan and the Pevensies because Jadis was only a so-called queen who based her claim on a humanity she did not possess.
 
Maybe that explains why all my tech support calls for computer problems are answered by Calormenes. :D

Believe me, they ARE an evil empire. The hold times, the accent, and the insistence on reading the nine mile serial number under the rubber foot way in the back. EEEEEVIL.

HA! I so agree with this post. :D
 
"I hope I don't come across as pedantic"

Be as pedantic as you want, CORIN. I am pedantic sometimes, too.

A liberation requires conquering the ruling power. A reconquering, a liberation, a reclaiming, I don't care what it is called. The main issue was that a battle was required to install the government (although how Jadis made herself queen isn't specified).

"Calormen was NOT the constantly conquered Jerusalem, rather it was more like the constantly expanding Rome."

Lava, how much did Calormen expand? Archenland was always free even though it was just over the desert. Calormen attempted to take control of Archenland with Rabadash's failed attack. The next time we know of them attacking was in TLB when they directly attacked Narnia.

Regarding the Lone Islands, Calormen never owned them, they simply were such an important trading partner with Calormen and, after hundreds of years without contact with Narnia, their monetary system simply went with what the Calromenes used.

MrBob
 
The militaristic culture of Calormen means they must have been conquering somebody. I think it is safe to assume that Calormen expanded southwards and perhaps to territories south-west of Archenland. We just don't know about them.
 
I see the expansion similar to China where a relatively small country of "Chin" (hence "China" and "Chin Dynasty") went on a rampant expansion campaign, conquering other chinese speaking nations. The Mongol Empire and the Roman Empire had similar histories of expansionism.

I would imagine that the Calormene people were mounted warlords like the Mongols. They would form small Emirates, Principalities and Kingdoms. They would have various dialects from the same language family and a somewhat similar appearance, and have some similar beliefs about the supernatural. An ambitious warlord claiming (or really believing) that he received a vision, went out to unite the parts into one empire.

Some of the people were grateful because it ended the infighting. But that came at a price.
 
I cannot give evidence that they expanded to one particular country or another, I can however give evidence that Calormen was considered an expanding empire. It is most evident in the paragraph when Lewis is getting "him [Rabadash] out of the way" (Lewis, HHB, Rabadash the Ridiculous, in mine it is page 237). Lewis discusses how Rabadash's condition made things more comfortable for the smaller COUNTRIES around Calormen. Disdain for the smaller free countries around Calormen is expressed during the discussion between the Tisroc, Ahoshta Tarkaan, and Rabadash. In addition, the reason that Bree and Hwin are in Calormen in the first place is because Calormene raiders stole them from Archenland. Archenland and Narnia were unconquered because Narnia was, if you will, the other super-power in the Narnian world. Also, the Calormenes were superstitious people and they believed that the "Narnian Demon" Aslan protected Narnia. It was only the people with little or no belief in any form of a god that made incursions into Narnia.
 
QUOTE=EveningStar;2093223]Correct. The word "liberated" springs to mind. Practically BoUnCeS to mind. It was liberated by Aslan and the Pevensies because Jadis was only a so-called queen who based her claim on a humanity she did not possess.[/QUOTE]

And because she treated her subjects in such a cruel manner.

"IArchenland was always free even though it was just over the desert. Calormen attempted to take control of Archenland with Rabadash's failed attack. The next time we know of them attacking was in TLB when they directly attacked Narnia.MrBob

According to 'The Horse and His Boy' wasn't this because the nature and size of the desert itself prevented any direct assault by a large land army? I believe the oasis could only cope with a much smaller company. (In 'The Last Battle' wasn't Narnia assaulted from the sea rather than by land?


Disdain for the smaller free countries around Calormen is expressed during the discussion between the Tisroc, Ahoshta Tarkaan, and Rabadash. In addition, the reason that Bree and Hwin are in Calormen in the first place is because Calormene raiders stole them from Archenland. Archenland and Narnia were unconquered because Narnia was, if you will, the other super-power in the Narnian world. Also, the Calormenes were superstitious people and they believed that the "Narnian Demon" Aslan protected Narnia. It was only the people with little or no belief in any form of a god that made incursions into Narnia.

They also feared Jadis so, upon learning of her death, would logically fear whoever succeeded her.
 
I think there is something more than fearing Jadis' successor at stake.

If you're not a witch, able to conjure supplies from air with your wand, a kingdom that's always winter and never Christmas is no paradise.

I can't imagine the Calormenes would want Narnia while it was always bitterly cold. When spring returned, that would be another matter entirely.

I got this information off the SeeNARNIA! website put out by the Narnian Ministry of Tourism.
 
Archenland and Narnia were unconquered because Narnia was, if you will, the other super-power in the Narnian world.

In terms of naval power that's true. Although Calormen was a much larger and more populous country they didn't seem to have the sea 'in their blood' the way the Narnians did.

It's interesting to speculate who would have won if Narnia and Calormen had come to open warfare during the Golden Age. I would put my money on Narnia. The impassiblity of the desert means such a war would have been fought mainly at sea where Narnia was as strong as Calormen. Also they would probably have other advantages. Many varieties of Talking Birds would make excellent scouts and exact knowledge of the enemy's position can be decisive in a naval engagment.

I remember as a child after reading THAHB, indulging myself by imagining a war between Narnia and Calormen. The Narnians always won of course!
 
I think there is something more than fearing Jadis' successor at stake.
If you're not a witch, able to conjure supplies from air with your wand, a kingdom that's always winter and never Christmas is no paradise.
I can't imagine the Calormenes would want Narnia while it was always bitterly cold. When spring returned, that would be another matter entirely.
I got this information off the SeeNARNIA! website put out by the Narnian Ministry of Tourism.

Very good points!
 
Yes, very true. "Numbers do not cross a desert"

It was my understanding that the sea attack was made possible by the disarray that Shift and the Calormenes working with him caused. Also by a general complacency with regards the Narnian people.
 
My favorite book :)

Well this is defintely my favorite book out of the series and I will have to look back into the discussions to see if I can jump in somewhere.
 
I think I am about to dub you sbdc, unless you have something else you prefer. This is a very good book. This discussion has deep roots in discussing the basis for the Calormene culture.
 
(Sorry for the topic change - still trying to reach 10 posts :) )

This was always one of my favorite books primarily for the adventure aspect. When I was about 8 or 10 I was reading this book for the first time. The radio was on in the background and the song was "These Dreams" by Heart. This was near the beginning of the book when Shasta and Bree first started riding off into the night.

Pretty powerful. The combination of the book and song stuck with me for lo these 25 years and counting.

Brian
 
Oh and, er, to get back on topic I never knew about Arabs or Turks or Punjabs when I was 10 years old. I think my first idea of the culture reference was reading something along the lines of a criticism for Lewis disdaining Arabs and/or Muslims. Unfortunately that's my imprint scenario so I tend to see them as Arabs. Though I can see the point of East Indians I can so less similarities to Arabs. Turks maybe.

I think Tashbaan was meant to represent Las Vegas...

Brian
 
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