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King Tirian 06-29-2008 06:13 PM

the Silmarillion
 
I just finished reading the magician's nephew and noticed a similarity between it and JRR Tolkein's Silmarillion (LOTR). If anyone hasn't read it, it is basically the history of middle earth from the very beginning. Anywho, the beginning of Narnia was the result of Aslan singing correct? Well in the Silmarillion, middle earth's universe is also created, if I remember correctly, from singing voices. Just a funny similarity I wanted to convey.

EveningStar 06-29-2008 07:34 PM

The Music of the Spheres. No big mystery there.

In Jewish Mysticism, when God said "Let there be light" he did not pronounce four words whose meanings symbolically represented actual objects, actions and relationships. He actually pronounced the substances.

The Kabbalah says that the sounds of God's voice are the elements that make up the universe. In an odd way, it was a kind of atomic theory and string theory combined into one.

The universe would have been sung into being. Lewis and Tolkein, being scholarly men from the days of a true "classical education" would have been acquainted with this.

KT, it was very sharp of you to pick up on that. You didn't just skim the works, you really read them. ;x)

John

kingcaspian 06-29-2008 08:48 PM

Wow. I just started reading the Silmarillion, and I didn't remember the similiareties in the creation of the worlds. The only thing I remembered being similar to something was the fact that Melkor(Morgoth) was like Lucifer.

Elentari 06-30-2008 12:31 AM

Also remember that Tolkien and Lewis were friends and would bring their ideas and transcripts to the Eagle and Child for Inklings meetings. Like mentioned before, they were both professors and were acquainted with the same ways of thinking and ideologies. Though Tolkien was Roman Catholic and Lewis was Protestant, they both shared many theological ideas and views.

As a related obervation--The interesting thing about it though is that, apart from Aslan and the Valar (under the instruction of Eru) singing the creation into existence, there are precious few--if any--other similarities between the books. I've read both books several times and other than the created worlds both being places that capture and stir the imagination and the people/creatures beings ones you wish you could meet in Heaven :D there are not similarities in story, characters, or landscape. In fact, they even have opposite directions for their eternal lands--Tolkien's being Valinor in the WEST and Lewis' being Aslan's Country in the EAST. :)

Copperfox 06-30-2008 01:32 AM

Perhaps Mr. Lewis meant that as imagining that his world and Mr. Tolkien's were on opposite sides of Heaven--though not "opposite" in a hostile sense. If you read "Pilgrim's Regress," you'll see there that Mr. Lewis had a sort of concept of Heaven being approached from either of two opposite sides.

General Oreius 06-30-2008 01:43 AM

I have contemplated the East v. West concept between Lewis and Tolkien. Perhaps if one uses their imagination (this is a little crazy), maybe if one goes far enough east in Middle-Earth, and one goes far enough west from Narnia, then maybe they will meet somewhere in the middle! Just a thought. It really comes down to if Narnia's world is really round or flat, because it is said in the Silmarillion that Middle-Earth became round.

King Tirian 06-30-2008 01:34 PM

That is an interesting idea General. And it could be an answer to the east v. west mystery. What lies west beyond the Garden of Youth and east beyond the Land of Mordor.....

Elentari 06-30-2008 02:07 PM

I think I also heard someone say once, maybe it was my husband, that if you look at the maps there are similarities in shape, just kind of flipped? Has anyone else noticed or heard of this?

Elentari 06-30-2008 02:13 PM

Quote:

It really comes down to if Narnia's world is really round or flat, because it is said in the Silmarillion that Middle-Earth became round.
Wasn't there a discussion in Voyage of the Dawn Treader about Narnia being flat? Eustace was explaining how our Earth was round, not like a table, but like a ball or something, and Caspian said that Narnia had fairytales about lands that were round, which is opposite of our fairytales/myths which involve a flat Earth. There was a fear with the Narnian sailors about sailing off the Eastern edge of the World and Lewis described (I wish I had my book) something like a wall of blue water that formed the edge, separating the known world from Aslan's Country. I hope I got all my facts right! I can feel lost without my book for reference! :confused:

King Tirian 06-30-2008 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elentari (Post 1564221)
Wasn't there a discussion in Voyage of the Dawn Treader about Narnia being flat? Eustace was explaining how our Earth was round, not like a table, but like a ball or something, and Caspian said that Narnia had fairytales about lands that were round, which is opposite of our fairytales/myths which involve a flat Earth. There was a fear with the Narnian sailors about sailing off the Eastern edge of the World and Lewis described (I wish I had my book) something like a wall of blue water that formed the edge, separating the known world from Aslan's Country. I hope I got all my facts right! I can feel lost without my book for reference! :confused:

Gotcha covered:
"I can't understand this. There is not a breath of wind. The sail hangs dead. The sea is as flat as a pond. And yet we drive on as fast as if there were a gale behind us." "I've been thinking that too," said Caspian. "We must be caught in some current." "H'm," said Edmund. "That's not so nice if the world really has en edge and we're getting near it." "You mean," said Caspian, "that we might be just-well, poured over it?" "Yes, yes," cried Reepicheep, clapping his paws together. "That's how I've always imagined it-the world like a great round table and the waters of all the oceans endlessly pouring over the edge. The ship will tip up-stand on her head-for one moment we shall see over the edge-and then down, down, the rush, the speed-"
"And what do you think will be waiting for us at the bottom eh?" said Drinian. "Aslan's country perhaps," said the Mouse, its eyes shining. "Or perhaps there isn't any bottom. Perhaps it goes down for ever and ever. But whatever it is, won't it be worth anything just to have looked for one moment beyond the edge of the world."
"But look here," said Eustace, "this is all rot. The world's round-I mean, round like a ball, not like a table." "Our world is," said Edmund. "But is this?"
"Do you mean to say,"asked Caspian, "that you three come from a round world (round like a ball) and you've never told me! It's really too bad for you. Because we have fairy tales in which there are round worlds and I have always loved them. I never believed there were any real ones. But I've always wished there were and I've always longed to live in one. Oh, and I'd give anything-I wonder why you can get into our world and we never get into yours? If only I had the chance! It must be exciting to live on a thing like a ball. Have you ever been to the parts where people walk about upside-down?"......


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