Purity and Modesty [Archive] - Page 4 - The Dancing Lawn

inkspot

03-27-2008, 03:16 PM

Liljentuva, I can't really explain to you how important it is in the life of a believer to be married to another believer, because you don't see faith the same way Christians see it.

To you, belief is a "trivial" thing.

To the Christ-follower, faith in Him is the foundation of their being, it's the "only" thing; not trivial in any way.

If there were anything in your life that you were truly committed to, and yet you found you were in love with someone who felt 180 degrees opposite of the way you did on this issue, then you can imagine a tiny inkling of what it would mean for a believer in Christ to willingly make herself a partner to a believer in darkness.

Of course Solya has every right to make up her own mind on the subject, but I thought that her question about "what constitutes a good Christian" and her explanation of her relationship were opening the door for a discussion of why believers are instructed in Scripture to marry only other believers.

Much as I might wish, for her sake and the sake of her potential children, that she would only marry someone who cherished her Catholic faith in Christ the same was she did, I have no power to make her do so. I have only my prayers, Scripture and advice, which I think it would be very wrong not to give her.

In the First Century church, the Apostles advised people who became believers to stay married to their non-believing spouse, if the non-believing spouse would tolerate it. This implies that in the early stages of Christianity, it was a very controversial thing to declare your faith in Christ -- spouses were leaving each other over it because it was so revolutionary.

Today, some people think what faith you follow is trivial and has no impact on your life, so it is a non-issue.

But for the follower of Jesus Christ, that can never be true. If Christ will have you, He will have all of you. For you to willingly take what is His and place it, and your potential children, at the disposal of someone who already stands condemned (John 3:18) is a very serious thing.

Solya, you are in my prayers. I forget your age, darling, but if you are considering marriage, I am going to pray God will give you His wisdom, and let you feel His love. You will choose rightly when you let Christ express His life in you. :)

Again, Liljentuva, you cannot really understand nor comment in a relevant way on this issue, not because you aren't smart and nice, which I am sure you are both, but because you are outside of the issue. You wouldn't be able to comment sensibly on men's shavers because you're not a man and don't have to shave your face (which is not insulting to say to you or putting you down in any way; it is just a fact). By the same token, you cannot comment sensibly on the issue of followers of Christ wedding non-believers because you are not a follower of Christ yourself. It is nothing against you, it is just that you are on the outside of it.

Solya

03-27-2008, 03:25 PM

Solya, you are in my prayers. I forget your age, darling, but if you are considering marriage, I am going to pray God will give you His wisdom, and let you feel His love. You will choose rightly when you let Christ express His life in you. :)

I'm only 19 years old, so I still want to wait with marriage for a couple of years. :) I want to grow in Christ first before I commit myself to the man God has chosen for me. I thank you for your prayers and your beautiful words, though, because they are something I will remember once I do get married.

inkspot

03-27-2008, 03:51 PM

I'm only 19 years old, so I still want to wait with marriage for a couple of years. :) I want to grow in Christ first before I commit myself to the man God has chosen for me. I thank you for your prayers and your beautiful words, though, because they are something I will remember once I do get married.
You have lots of time, darling. And I know you have a good heart, so you will make the right decision. :)

I finally thought of an analogy that might work for liljentuva. To the follower of Christ, Jesus is a real Person, the most important Person in our world. So, think about it this way ...

Suppose you had a child, the most important person in your world. And you had a lover who was nuts about you, treated you like a queen, scratched your every itch -- but when it came to your child, your lover said, "Oh, I can take him or leave him. I mean, if you want to love that kid, you go right ahead. I will never stand in your way. In fact, I encourage you to love him and take care of him just as much as you want. That's great for you. But me, no. I don't like the kid that much. I don't hate him or anything, but he's nothing to me really. So, you go ahead and love him, and I won't stop you. But I don't think that much of him, really."

Would you marry someone who regarded your child like that?

That is a tiny approximation of what it means for a Christ-follower to marry a non-believer. It's not that he's hostile to the child, and he would never hurt the child, but the fact that he would ignore the child, and not love the child the way you love the child ... wouldn't that leave you cold?

Lila

03-27-2008, 04:01 PM

I actually had an in-depth conversation with my youth pastor about the subject of dating and/or marrying someone who doesn't believe the same thing as you. I don't think it's a technically a sin to have a relationship like that, but I wouldn't want to be with someone who wasn't a Christian. (Unless I really, truly loved him and I felt that God was calling us to be together.) In the future, if I marry, I want to be with someone who can strengthen me in my faith.

Has anyone considered that God may be calling someone to be with another so that they can help steer the other toward Him? (If that makes any sense... :p)

Lucy the Marshwiggle

03-27-2008, 04:09 PM

Since we're on this topic, let me tell you guys about what happened with a girl from my church youth group when she fell in love with a non-believer. This girl was one of our youth group leaders and was an active participant in the church choir, basically she loved the Lord with all her heart and wanted to serve Him alone, until she fell in love with a guy from her college. They dated for a while and of course he said that he respected her beliefs and her God. Time passed and they got engaged, and slowly we began to see her less and less at church. They are married now, and we NEVER see her and from what we know, she doesn't attend any other churches. Her husband basically said that he wants to see her when he comes home from work and that church is a conflict in their marriage life because we have Wednesday Bible study nights and he doesn't want her to go. To save her marriage, she stopped coming. Now that doesn't mean that she has stopped loving the Lord, but it does go on to show how much of an influence a partner can have if he/she is not a born-again Christian. This isn't to say that exceptions don't happen, but for the most part, this is what happens when one spouse has God at the top of their list and the other doesn't have God on their list at all.

(I'm in NO way directing this to you Solya, so please don't feel offended by the story. It was just something that was relevant to what we were conversing about, so I decided to talk about it.:) )

Copperfox

03-27-2008, 04:23 PM

Solya, I am directing this to you, but as truth, not a personal attack. Inkspot's illustration of the child and the lover was exactly on target; and Lucy-M's real-life example is painfully commonplace. Jesus said, and said ABSOLUTELY, "Whoever does not gather with Me, scatters." Marrying a man whose priorities are in competition with God's is just BEGGING to find yourself giving up YOUR priorities in favor of his, at God's expense. I've watched it happen.

inkspot

03-27-2008, 04:41 PM

Has anyone considered that God may be calling someone to be with another so that they can help steer the other toward Him? (If that makes any sense... )
It makes sense if you mean "be with" him by befriending him and showing him Christ's love through your friendship. If you mean "marry," then no, because God would not call you to do something He had already forbidden in the Bible. If you look at 2 Corinthians 6:14-15, the Apostle clearly says not to put yourself in partnership with a non-believer.

Now in the case where two people are already married, and one becomes a believer in Christ, there is hope that she may help steer her spouse to choose Christ as well.
If your wife isn't a follower of the Lord, but is willing to stay with you, don't divorce her. If your husband isn't a follower, but is willing to stay with you, don't divorce him. Your husband or wife who isn't a follower is made holy by having you as a mate. This also makes your children holy and keeps them from being unclean in God's sight. If your husband or wife isn't a follower of the Lord and decides to divorce you, then you should agree to it. You are no longer bound to that person. After all, God chose you and wants you to live at peace.
But this is clearly in response to existing marriages -- the passage from 2 Corinthians 6 makes clear that no one who is already a believer should embark on a marriage with someone who is not.

This discussion isn't just about Solya, who has a good head on her shoulders and a real heart to follow Christ, but for anyone who is dating right now or considering dating. It isn't true that you "can't help" who you fall in love with -- you certainly will not fall madly in love with someone to whom you do not allow yourself to get close and into an emotionally vulnerable relationship with. So, if you don't want to fall in love with someone who doesn't share your faith in Christ, I would say to start with, don't position yourself to be in a close and emotionally intimate/romantic relationship with a person who doesn't share your faith.

Spare Oomian

03-27-2008, 04:44 PM

Suppose you had a child, the most important person in your world. And you had a lover who was nuts about you, treated you like a queen, scratched your every itch -- but when it came to your child, your lover said, "Oh, I can take him or leave him. I mean, if you want to love that kid, you go right ahead. I will never stand in your way. In fact, I encourage you to love him and take care of him just as much as you want. That's great for you. But me, no. I don't like the kid that much. I don't hate him or anything, but he's nothing to me really. So, you go ahead and love him, and I won't stop you. But I don't think that much of him, really."

I love that illustration, Ink. It's completely true, and very insightful.

Has anyone considered that God may be calling someone to be with another so that they can help steer the other toward Him? (If that makes any sense... :p)

That may be the case. In fact, if I started dating a non-believer, I would take the opportunity to do just that. I wouldn't force it upon him, but it would be a wonderful thing. :)

Doffen

03-27-2008, 05:27 PM

two people respecting and loving each other IN THE WAY RECOMMENDED by the God Who INVENTED love in the first place, and that ain't Odin.

Oh no, that would be Frøya, dear Copperfox. Odin is the god of wisdom ;)

liljentuva

03-27-2008, 05:47 PM

Solya, you're very welcome! :)

What's better than two people respecting and loving each other is--two people respecting and loving each other IN THE WAY RECOMMENDED by the God Who INVENTED love in the first place, and that ain't Odin. If one spouse claims to believe in the true God, while the other treats God like a piece of junk mail to be glanced at and pitched into the trash, this difference between the spouses will sooner or later affect other areas of their minds and lives besides just the abstraction of religious belief. For example, if God commanded us to be vegetarians (though He doesn't--this is just an illustration), and if a believer in God married a dedicated meat-eater, something would have to give.
I hardly think the majority of non-Christians treat your God like a piece of junk worthy the trash bin. They are just uninterested in him just like you are uninterested in deities of other religions. The Christian God doesn't give non-Christians anything of value to them. He has nothing to "bring to the table" sort of speak. I'm probably choosing my words wrong here but I don't know how to fully explain myself on the issue since English isn't my native language.

Liljentuva, I can't really explain to you how important it is in the life of a believer to be married to another believer, because you don't see faith the same way Christians see it.
I know that faith is extremely important to Christians and that Jesus is the most important thing in their lives. I realize that and I respect that. I just wish non-Christians would get the same respect back in regards of Jesus not being the most important person in their lives.

And when I meant that faith is a trivial thing, I meant it is a trivial thing compared to the health and happiness of say your children, spouses, relatives or friends. At least that's my world view. Nothing is more important than family. You might say that faith will give your family health and happiness but I believe that is not always the case.

Everyone should be entitled to find their own happiness in whatever makes them happy, not in what I say should make them happy or what you say should make them happy. If my future children decide to become Christian I will support them to 100%. Whatever makes them happy. The same if they'd decide to follow any other religion or spiritual path, whether it be Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Paganism or even Atheism. Whatever makes them happy.

If there were anything in your life that you were truly committed to, and yet you found you were in love with someone who felt 180 degrees opposite of the way you did on this issue, then you can imagine a tiny inkling of what it would mean for a believer in Christ to willingly make herself a partner to a believer in darkness.
If I loved him enough I'd make it work despite all the fundamental differences. I would only ask of him that he put the same effort in making it work. I wouldn't think so low of him though to put such a label on him as a "believer in darkness". I would see that as a very rewarding relationship actually. Sharing our different beliefs with one another. I have several hardcore Christian friends (many of them 'fundamental' or 'evangelical') and our conversations and discussions are some of the most rewarding I've ever had. We learn from one another daily.

Much as I might wish, for her sake and the sake of her potential children, that she would only marry someone who cherished her Catholic faith in Christ the same was she did, I have no power to make her do so. I have only my prayers, Scripture and advice, which I think it would be very wrong not to give her.
Of course you should give advice, especially when you feel it is needed and when you're more experienced (as I feel you are with these kind of questions in life). Just know that not everyone sees it as the most terrible thing in the world to marry someone of a different faith and they shouldn't have to feel differently :)

Again, Liljentuva, you cannot really understand nor comment in a relevant way on this issue, not because you aren't smart and nice, which I am sure you are both, but because you are outside of the issue. You wouldn't be able to comment sensibly on men's shavers because you're not a man and don't have to shave your face (which is not insulting to say to you or putting you down in any way; it is just a fact). By the same token, you cannot comment sensibly on the issue of followers of Christ wedding non-believers because you are not a follower of Christ yourself. It is nothing against you, it is just that you are on the outside of it.
I know that I am outside this particular situation. I'm just commenting on it as an outsider trying to understand that's all. I just can't wrap my head around this constant judging though. But I guess I never will. Here's me and my liberal tolerant nonsense again :p

I finally thought of an analogy that might work for liljentuva. To the follower of Christ, Jesus is a real Person, the most important Person in our world. So, think about it this way ...

Suppose you had a child, the most important person in your world. And you had a lover who was nuts about you, treated you like a queen, scratched your every itch -- but when it came to your child, your lover said, "Oh, I can take him or leave him. I mean, if you want to love that kid, you go right ahead. I will never stand in your way. In fact, I encourage you to love him and take care of him just as much as you want. That's great for you. But me, no. I don't like the kid that much. I don't hate him or anything, but he's nothing to me really. So, you go ahead and love him, and I won't stop you. But I don't think that much of him, really."

Would you marry someone who regarded your child like that?

That is a tiny approximation of what it means for a Christ-follower to marry a non-believer. It's not that he's hostile to the child, and he would never hurt the child, but the fact that he would ignore the child, and not love the child the way you love the child ... wouldn't that leave you cold?
That analogy doesn't work for me because a child is a real living breathing human being you created. You can touch and see it. You don't need faith or belief to prove whether he or she exists because he or she is right there in front of your eyes. I believe you cannot prove the existence of any God(s)/Goddess - you can only have faith or belief He, She or They exist. So to me those comparisons don't work.

It's funny that you should mention a child though. From what I've gathered here in this thread, the majority of the Christians here feel Jesus should be the absolute number one priority. What I cannot fathom is how anyone can come before your own child. How can anything be of higher priority than your own flesh and blood? I'd use your analogy for the opposite. It would leave me extremely cold if my future partner would love someone else before his child.

I respect the fact that you feel Jesus should be the number one priority in your life. I just can't understand it, that's all. It's probably the only thing I wouldn't tolerate in a future partner - that he puts someone or something else before his kids.

Spare Oomian

03-27-2008, 05:57 PM

I'm actually glad you're posting here, Liljentuva. I get that you don't really get what the wrest of us are saying about a lot of this stuff, but Christianity is very complex.
I agree that family and children should be the most important thing, but to Christians Jesus is our family. He is our father; He is the flesh and He is the blood. That's why Ink made that comparison. Having a partner that is only neutral to Jesus is like having a partner that is only neutral to a child or any other famly member to a Christian, although I fully understand where you're coming from in your argument. Just thought I'd help clear that up for you.
And, I'm sure, nobody meant any offense to you or anything you believe in or said. (it seemed to me that tensions were getting a little high) The others are just answering with what they know...and that's full-throttled Christianity. I hope you continue to post here though, you bring up good points. :)

liljentuva

03-27-2008, 06:19 PM

Thank you Spare Oomian :)

And yeah you helped clear things up a little bit better. I get where Christians are coming from, at least on some points, but I still don't actually understand it - if you get what I mean ;) And I suspect that goes both ways.

I do enjoy this forum but I must admit it is just a tad bit daunting to post in these debate threads because I know that for every opinion or comment I throw out there I will get at least 5-10 essay replies completely disagreeing with me and it is quite overwhelming. I've been in tons of debates online in the past where there have been plenty of disagreements - I just haven't experienced this "me vs practically the whole forum" before :p

Spare Oomian

03-27-2008, 06:26 PM

liljentuva

03-27-2008, 06:35 PM

No problem. :)

Yeah, I definately understand what you mean. It's a different world, but I'm glad you're so open minded and respectful towards what we say.

LOL I guess that can be kinda frustrating. :p
It is a different world for sure! I guess you can blame my open mindedness on my parents. When you have a conservative dad and a liberal mom you sort of tend to form your own ideas of what you think is right and there's no question about respecting all 'sides' to the issue - you do it automatically. My parents are both atheist/agnostic (something they never let us know though) but they wanted us kids to form our own opinion on things and find out for ourselves what we believed in so they sent us to Sunday school and all sorts of things. We had a great up bringing :)

umbrellaxscenexcore

03-27-2008, 08:03 PM

Is it just me or do oyu have an aweful lot to deal with on the forums? :rolleyes:

liljentuva

03-27-2008, 08:10 PM

^ What do you mean?

umbrellaxscenexcore

03-27-2008, 08:15 PM

liljentuva

03-27-2008, 08:32 PM

I don't know. From the way i see it, it seems most people tilt their heads to the side and lok at you with a perplexed expression. It's like they've never met someone with beliefs like yourself. I don't know, I guess I haven't been loking closely. I haven't. *shrugs*
Ah yeah ok I figured that's what you meant but I wasn't sure whether you were being sarcastic or serious, haha. I do agree with you though. I sort of feel like the monkey in a cage here. Or like a completely unknown species no one has ever seen before :p

inkspot

03-28-2008, 12:10 PM

I sort of feel like the monkey in a cage here. Or like a completely unknown species no one has ever seen before
LOL -- you are not an unknown species at all, Anna! Sorry if I made you feel that way.

I think Spare Oomian answered your question about putting Someone first, ahead of family -- I'll agree: Jesus for Christians is the head of our family, so we have complete faith that He is putting us and our children first on His list ... In choosing Him first, we are choosing to give control/authority to the One who knows the children best and wants the best for them. You are right, it is a daunting concept looking in from the outside.

If I loved him enough I'd make it work despite all the fundamental differences. I would only ask of him that he put the same effort in making it work. I wouldn't think so low of him though to put such a label on him as a "believer in darkness".
The "believer in darkness" thing is not so much a label as a fact for followers of Christ; we have no option but to see the world as Christ sees it, and He made clear that those who do not believe in Him do not because they are in the dark (John 3:18-20). But I think you are skipping the essential question here. This was the scenario: you love everything about this guy, and he loves everything about you -- except this one thing. Let's say it is that he believes in eating babies. You have strong feelings that no one ought ever to eat human flesh, but he has a strong feeling that he wants to eat dead babies. He doesn't kill them to eat them, but he'll get the dead bodies wherever he can and eat them.

Are you seriously going to believe there is a happy marriage ahead of you, and that it's the best thing to let your eventual children decide for themselves whether or not they want to scavenge and eat babies?

I know that's a ridiculous extreme, but this is what a Christ-follower is considering when considering a marriage with a non-believer. The Bible calls it (my previous passages from 2 Corinthians 6) a union of light and darkness, and impossibility. Not because the non-believer is a bad guy or not good enough for the believer --

But because the believer's life must be based on Christ, and the marriage union joins two people as "one flesh," the Bible says, if her marriage partner has not also founded his life on Christ, then the believer is trying to do something impossible: to make herself "one flesh" with darkness while also trying to fully reflect the light of Christ.

(And not "darkness" in the sense that her husband is totally evil; I am sure he would not be, she wouldn't marry him if he weren't an absolutely great guy -- but to the follower of Christ, ultimately, every person eventually must declare himself, and those who do not in this life declare themselves for Christ will be forever separated from those who do . Eternity without the man she loves ...)

That analogy doesn't work for me because a child is a real living breathing human being you created. You can touch and see it. You don't need faith or belief to prove whether he or she exists because he or she is right there in front of your eyes. I believe you cannot prove the existence of any God(s)/Goddess - you can only have faith or belief He, She or They exist. So to me those comparisons don't work.

You are here asserting, I believe, that only what you can touch, taste, see, hear and feel can be proven to be real? And that only what can be proven to be real by the 5 senses needs to be taken seriously by all parties in a relationship? I ask this before I answer because I want to be sure I am understanding your logic here.

liljentuva

03-28-2008, 06:42 PM

LOL -- you are not an unknown species at all, Anna! Sorry if I made you feel that way.
LoL don't worry about it. It's not that serious. But all things aside, I do feel like it's me against the world on this forum. I guess I didn't realize what I was getting myself into when I signed up :p

I think Spare Oomian answered your question about putting Someone first, ahead of family -- I'll agree: Jesus for Christians is the head of our family, so we have complete faith that He is putting us and our children first on His list ... In choosing Him first, we are choosing to give control/authority to the One who knows the children best and wants the best for them. You are right, it is a daunting concept looking in from the outside.
I guess I understand where you're coming from with this but I still wouldn't choose the father over the children. When I have children they will come before my own parents, siblings, partner - before anything! Since you say Jesus is putting his children first on his list - wouldn't it honor him more to follow his own example and put your children first on the list (and your children put their children first on the list and so on) just like he does his children?

The "believer in darkness" thing is not so much a label as a fact for followers of Christ; we have no option but to see the world as Christ sees it, and He made clear that those who do not believe in Him do not because they are in the dark (John 3:18-20). But I think you are skipping the essential question here. This was the scenario: you love everything about this guy, and he loves everything about you -- except this one thing. Let's say it is that he believes in eating babies. You have strong feelings that no one ought ever to eat human flesh, but he has a strong feeling that he wants to eat dead babies. He doesn't kill them to eat them, but he'll get the dead bodies wherever he can and eat them.

Are you seriously going to believe there is a happy marriage ahead of you, and that it's the best thing to let your eventual children decide for themselves whether or not they want to scavenge and eat babies?
I just don't see why I need to answer that question since a matter of personal religious belief couldn't be further away from eating babies? Like you said it is a ridiculous extreme - too ridiculous to even ponder at. I get that a Christian probably wouldn't be able to live happily with a person of a different belief. But if you just take religion away for a second - if you can do that - it's really just two human beings we're talking about here. We're all human beings no matter what color, culture, religion or orientation we are. The world is not black and white. It's a whole shades of gray.

Life is too short to worry about everything we supposedly shouldn't be doing. Sure, some might say we have to think about where we will be spending eternity as well. But what if there isn't an eternity. I know you all believe there is but just humor me for a second and say that there isn't. I'd rather live my life completely to the fullest down here on earth than live a life full of restrictions only so I can get a ticket to eternity. But yeah that's just how I personally view things and I suspect I am quite alone on that stance.

You are here asserting, I believe, that only what you can touch, taste, see, hear and feel can be proven to be real? And that only what can be proven to be real by the 5 senses needs to be taken seriously by all parties in a relationship? I ask this before I answer because I want to be sure I am understanding your logic here.
No that's not what I meant. I was just saying that I didn't think you could compare an actual child to a religious belief since they are two completely different things. One is abstract - the other concrete. If you want to compare something regarding religion you're gonna need to find a counterpart within the same... subject sort of speak. At least something that is equally abstract.

Like I said before I'm probably choosing my words wrong here. I can barely explain myself on philosophical issues in Swedish (my mother tongue) let alone English. This is actually the first place I've ever come across where people are questioning your personal beliefs in a debate so it's completely new to me and something I've never done before. Never had to. So please bear with me.

Copperfox

03-28-2008, 08:07 PM

PrinceOfTheWest

03-28-2008, 08:32 PM

One issue that's often forgotten when dealing with the question of differing beliefs in a marriage - particularly differing religious beliefs - is the inevitable difficulty of marrying cross-culturally. Religion is more than culture, but the expressions of it can be very cultural. Such things seem like minor issues to people who are "in love", particularly when they're young, because "love conquers all", etc. While it is true that love (agape) does conquer all, if you ask any couple who has married cross-culturally, they will tell you that the decision greatly compounded their struggles. I'm not speaking from theological theory here, but personal experience in my own life and in the lives of many couples I've known and counseled. Some of those are still together, but many are not, because over a lifetime, things which seem like trivial and easily solvable to the young and excited prove to be knotty and difficult, particularly when children become involved.

Having seen a lot of these situations, my advice to young people is that no matter what their misty eyes and raging hormones may tell them, they'd best think long and hard before marrying outside their faith, cultural background, philosophical outlook, or against their family's wishes. Trust me, I've heard lots of tears and cries from those who haven't.

liljentuva

03-28-2008, 08:39 PM

Okay, Lil, we'll try an illustration that ISN'T extreme at all, but realistic.

The genuine God tells us in His Word that we should be truthful. This clearly extends to issues like cheating in school. Suppose I have a son in high school who is struggling to pass his courses. If he passes the exams coming up, he has a chance to be admitted to the college he wants; but even though I've tried to help him study, he feels sure that he will flunk...unless he cheats on the exams.

I want VERY much for my son to get into college, because I love him and want him to have advantages in life. So, if I choose, I can convince myself that approving of his cheating is an act of love--and surely God's rules about honesty can't be THAT strict--or if they are that strict, then obviously I have to choose my son's welfare above God's rigid, unreasonable, absolutist rules about honesty.

BUT...when I put my son above God in this way, it isn't even good FOR MY SON in the long run.
If your son is at the age of applying for colleges he is somewhere around 18 years old and an adult. So it should be up to him whether he wants to be truthful or not, shouldn't it? After all, it's his life. I know this was only an illustration but still.

The Bible tells you very specifically on how to act and what to do in all areas of life. But each circumstance is different. Each person is different. If you still think that the word of your God as written in the Bible should apply regardless of the situation then shouldn't we be punishing people who wear clothes made of different kinds of material or farmers who plant different crops in the same fields as mentioned in Levictus 19:19? And shouldn't we then gather up the whole town to stone those to death who curse and blaspheme as is also ordered in Levictus (24:10-16)? I could name so many more of these examples which are clearly not followed these days.

If those things don't apply anymore then surely the Bible must be free for interpretation!

PrinceOfTheWest

03-28-2008, 09:54 PM

This is digressing from the core topic, lil, but it's worth clarifying a point. You use the example of stoning as evidence that everything in the Bible is open to circumstantial reinterpretation. You should understand that even the rabbis understood Torah (i.e. the first five books of the Bible, the core of Jewish law) to contain three types of law: juridical law, cultic law, and moral law. Juridical law only applied to the nation of Israel when it was free and self-governing. The example you provided would be one of these laws. Cultic (or worship) law applied to all Israelites everywhere, even those living among the nations (goyim). Kosher laws fell into this category. Moral laws applied to all men in all places. The basis for these were the Decalogue, or Ten Commandments.

Understand that the moral law is given to us for our own good. The intention is not so some men can tell other men what to do, but rather that all people would live in harmony and live lives pleasing to God. In CF's example, he would discourage his son from cheating not so he could prove he was the Big Boss, and not so he could force his son to adhere to his own moral standard, but because he loves his son and knows that lying is destructive to self and others.

Copperfox

03-28-2008, 10:31 PM

Thanks, POTW.

I have seen in real life that, when there IS a shared faith in Jesus and commitment to serve Him, this can outweigh a multitude of other differences.

A friend of mine named Gary trained to be a missionary. Assigned to Senegal, he studied French because that language is widely used in that country. Meanwhile, in Brazil, a young Christian woman named Elizabeth joined a Brazilian missionary organization with similar beliefs to Gary's, and she also studied French. Gary was white, Elizabeth was black, and neither of them could speak the other one's native language. When they met in Senegal, they had only French in which to discuss their common faith and get to know each other. But having an identical devotion to Our Savior, they did not let anything else prevent them from finding genuine love together and getting married. And their marriage was and is a success.

inkspot

03-31-2008, 01:10 PM

Yah, I want to answer liljentuva, but we have wandered way off course in the discussion of purity, which is what this thread is about. So, perhaps I will start a new thread here, shortly, using some of the above as its basis.

In the meantime, back to the topic of purity ...

I do not have much to say about it at this moment, so let us just define the term and anyone who has more to say can jump in.

In this thread, when we speak of purity, we are speaking of keeping mind and body focused on Christ -- purity is for single people and married people and does not deal exclusively with sex, but rather with remembering (if you are a follower of Christ) that you and your body belong to Him, and so you want to use yourself and body only as He would have you do.

Copperfox

03-31-2008, 02:18 PM

inkspot

03-31-2008, 06:09 PM

LOL -- that's right. Purity is not about how much skin you show, but where your heart and thoughts are.

she-elfwarrior19

03-31-2008, 08:56 PM

LOL -- that's right. Purity is not about how much skin you show, but where your heart and thoughts are.

Oh how right you are Inkspot

umbrellaxscenexcore

04-06-2008, 07:53 PM

That's right, purity takes in the whole person.

Many are the women in churches who will foam at the mouth with rage at a younger woman who DARES to let her knees be visible in church; they assume, and ENJOY assuming, that she is in actual practice sexually immoral. But it is THEY who are being impure, defiling themselves by intentionally taking pleasure in thinking evil of someone else with no proof. Besides which, at least some of them are always secretly envious because they don't look as good as the woman they're condemning.

Seeing things this way is so much better than seeing things the way I've been taught to. I have this cousin who's all about islamic law and rules and i was bored and looking through this magazine and there was sleeveless dress and i was like this is nice and she held her ears and was like "oh God" and said something else do not remember how to translate into english. I was like...k calm down you freak.

and the knee thing just made me laugh cuz a gil in my gym class had "soft elbows" we were talking about soft skin and this girl touched this ther girls elbow and was like "dayum son smooth elbows"
so i was doing my alsp and i was catching up to and i started rubbing her elbows and she was like :Oh gosh Farah I do NOT have smooth elbows:rolleyes: " i was like pssht who you kidding... she SO has soft elbows. yeah i get reminded of things that have nothing to do with the subject :|

inkspot

04-28-2008, 10:40 PM

Hey purity fans. Here is a link to an interesting article -- I think it's on a Catholic news site --
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/harvards_true_love_revolution/

Apparently there is a secular-based abstinence movement on college campuses, because students who choose to be sexually chaste need a support group as everyone else makes fun of them ...

If you read the whole article, you'll note Emily says because she is publicly identified with abstinence, people feel free to make fun of her, inquire about her sex life, and so forth. What' that about? If you went around making fun of someone because of her sexual prowess, people would think that was so rude.

She also notes that some people think the chastity club must be religious in nature, so it ought to be banned because of separation of church and state. Good grief!

Anyway ... it's food for thought.

umbrellaxscenexcore

05-18-2008, 12:10 PM

Inkspot that link doesnt work for me :/

Copperfox

05-18-2008, 01:30 PM

But God's Word always works, my good young friend! I have been reminded more than once, since Janalee was taken from me, of these words from First Corinthians 10: "No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to all men. But God is faithful, and will not let you be tested beyond what you can bear, but with the temptation He will give you a way of escape."

That promise is like having your ticket firmly in hand at the airport.

inkspot

05-18-2008, 09:08 PM

Sorry, kiddo -- I guess the story has been taken down. Basically, it was a chastity club, a purity club, for college kids. I believe it was on the campus of an Ivy League school where they were interviewing the founder or something. The young people jst got together to support each other and publicly to say they were waiting for marriage.

Celebrion Seregon

05-18-2008, 09:22 PM

LOL -- that's right. Purity is not about how much skin you show, but where your heart and thoughts are.

I agree and disagree with you...it IS in your heart and thoughts..but a certain level of skin NEEDS to be covered, you can't let stuff ahng out and think "gosh, this is so God honoring and even though i KNOW it's a bit low cut and i SEE that guy over there staring nothing is wrong with it"

my best friend for example...wears low cut shirts and her undergarments are ALWAYS visible...it's ridiculous and I'm constantly pulling her shirt up and giving guys dirty looks for staring...

inkspot

05-18-2008, 10:01 PM

If you are consciously thinking along the lines you mentioned, then obviously you know that what you are doing is not God-honoring. But if you are one of the millions of wounded people in the world, who feels insecure, ugly, unloved, and who finds a real thrill in knowing that men admire your looks, so you feel compelled to wear revealing clothes ... Is that a purity issue, or a self-esteem issues? A girl like that ought to be pitied because of what has happened to her heart to make her feel so hungry for someone's admiration, and so blind to the fact that it isn't really admiration at all but lust. She could, in fact, be a pure-minded woman whose issues are just controlling her at this moment, you see.

And again, in societies where semi-nakedness was/is accepted, showing a lot of skin is not a big deal and not considered impure. A lot depends on the culture, and on the person.

jesus_narnia_freak7

05-23-2008, 10:58 PM

inkspot

05-24-2008, 08:38 PM

What is it you want to do about the infatuation? Do you want to stop liking the boy? You can be friends with him without dating him ...

Copperfox

05-24-2008, 09:00 PM

J-N-F's post forces me to come out AGAIN and repeat the overlooked or unadmitted truth.

EVERY time, and I mean EVERY time with NO exceptions, that I have been severely tempted to desire an adulterous affair, it has been ENTIRELY based on factors OTHER THAN how the women involved looked. In EVERY case, with NO exceptions, ALL of the temptation came from the way they BEHAVED toward me--eye contact, standing close, talking in an inviting way, etc. NOT ONE of the women was revealingly dressed at the time, and NOT ONE of them even WAS good-looking enough that revealing clothes would have contributed anything anyway.

It is a cheap shot, a shortcut, a path of least resistance, to say "Cover up the girls, and that will solve the problem." All it does is give the ILLUSION of solving the problem--while giving a nasty kind of satisfaction to some legalistic church women who PRETEND that their motives are spiritual, but whose ACTUAL motivation is a hateful jealousy of women who are better looking than they are. I've seen this close up, I promise you.

One more time, like the your-brain-on-drugs illustration: I could see Jessica Alba stark naked right in front of me--BUT ACTING INDIFFERENT TO ME--and she would have FAR LESS effect on me than an ordinary-looking woman clothed from chin to heels--BUT ACTING INTERESTED IN ME. There's no way I can be the only man alive for whom this is true. I believe that many men say, "Yes, my problem is what I see," because they have been taught to feel a FALSE guilt for enjoying the sight of a beautiful woman AT ALL, even though they were NOT really lusting after her.

Miss Freckles

05-25-2008, 02:49 PM

lieke

05-25-2008, 04:42 PM

true, true.
i have the problem myself that whenever i meet a guy who is simply interesting i'm afraid he will interpret my interest falsely, which no doubt keeps me from having some great friends.
now, what to do?
because all the explaning in this thread is great but it doesn't really help us understand one another better does it?
Guys, they are a mistery :rolleyes: But i do not have an answer to your problems, unfortunately.

I do agree with you to some extent, CF. I'm pretty sure there are some men who go after woman just because of their looks, but lots will agree with you on it. But that does not mean that we should dress inappropriately, even if man don't care whether we're covered head to toes, or not, i still don't feel comforable wearing a very low cut T-shirt, or a mini skirt. Especially not to school and such (when i'm sitting in my back yard i don't really care :p)

Elendil

05-26-2008, 05:42 AM

Guys :rolleyes:

DeplorableWord

05-26-2008, 12:47 PM

So here I am again stuck in infatuation...with the same guy. I have given it to God multiple times and I know my problem is that I enjoy the feeling of liking him. I have even told God that and given it to him too. I t doesn't help that we talk almost everyday and I work across the street from his house. I will give to God and feel great for like 3 days to a week then I slowly slide back into it. I have never ever been this hung up on a guy. My mom's tired of it and everytime get a text my brother asssumes it's from him (the kids I babysit do too). Help
BTW Celebrion Seregon I agree with you we just had a lesson about that at church. When guys see that they are visual (right guys) and they see more than what we show. Whether that be leg, tummy, or chest.

yes what do you want to do about it? to stop liking him? because really, i don't think there's anything wrong with liking a boy. everyone has crushes, however if you see that you're getting "infatuated" and it's distracting you from things like work, school, other friends, etc. then maybe you view it as unhealthy, which it quite possibly could be.
i think maybe you need help in moderation?

Spare Oomian

05-26-2008, 05:14 PM

So here I am again stuck in infatuation...with the same guy. I have given it to God multiple times and I know my problem is that I enjoy the feeling of liking him. I have even told God that and given it to him too. I t doesn't help that we talk almost everyday and I work across the street from his house. I will give to God and feel great for like 3 days to a week then I slowly slide back into it. I have never ever been this hung up on a guy. My mom's tired of it and everytime get a text my brother asssumes it's from him (the kids I babysit do too). Help
BTW Celebrion Seregon I agree with you we just had a lesson about that at church. When guys see that they are visual (right guys) and they see more than what we show. Whether that be leg, tummy, or chest.

You know, I have somewhat the same problem. There's this guy that I like...and I don't want to. Every once in a while I get rid of these feelings, but when I start talking to him more, the feelings come back.
What I've been doing is just ignoring the feelings, and trust that God knows what he's doing and everything will work out.
Now, is there a reason you don't want to like him? Who am I kidding, there probably is...but is it a really good reason? I mean, do you think it might just be more fear than anything else? Maybe these feelings aren't such a bad thing.

Ephinie

05-27-2008, 07:03 PM

This KIND OF relates to purity...

I really want to go to the beach. I mean, I REALLY want to go. I'm here in Florida visiting my family this week. I go home on Friday. I live in Missouri, so there are no beaches there. I highly doubt I will be out this way again for several years, so this really is my only chance to go to the beach for the foreseeable future. I've been here for about five days already. No one will go to the beach with me.

My mom, if she goes, wears jeans and a long sleeve T-shirt. She won't get in the water, and she won't attempt to swim. She won't do ANYTHING that might require allowing anyone to see even an inch of skin. And...she will be at work for the rest of the week. No chance of beach there.

That leaves my brothers. One of my little brothers can't drive, so he's out. My other little brother has been dodging me all week. I've tried to get him to take me to the beach every single day I've been here. He comes up with excuses about having to go do this or that other thing that can be done any old time. I mean, sheesh, I've seen the boy twice in the last six years; and both of those times were for less than a day really. Yet he doesn't seem to want to spend any time with me at all while I am here.

I was talking to my mom about it, and finally the truth comes out. Rob won't go to the beach with me because his fiance doesn't like him going to the beach. She doesn't like the idea that he might possibly (GASP!) happen to see another girl wearing a bathing suit.

Now this is the first time I think I have encountered rigidity of that level so close to my family. My mom thinks it's great. She just loves how "conservative" his fiance is.

I just feel that the concept of "purity" reaches a level of insanity if it means you can't even go and enjoy the beach because there is a chance that there might possibly be some girls in bathing suits there. It IS kind of hard to swim in one's clothes, after all. Why would the mere presence of girls swimming cause impure thoughts?

Lucy the Marshwiggle

05-27-2008, 09:42 PM

Wow, I'm so sorry to hear that Ephinie. The beach is one of the most beautiful places I've ever been to and I love going there every summer.

Why would the mere presence of girls swimming cause impure thoughts?

I don't think his fiancée just has a problem with him seeing girls in bathing suits, it seems to me that she doesn't like it if your brother ever looks at a girl, period. She should understand however, that practically half of the human race is female. I don't understand how a person who loves another in a relationship can have a problem with that. If they trust and love each other fully, then why would this be a problem? I think I can definitely share you in your confusion because I don't really understand what the problem here is either. :confused:

lieke

05-28-2008, 04:57 AM

Well, there is such a thing as too much purity. I love going swimming (whether in a swimming pool or on the beach), and yeah, i don't swim with all my clothes on either :p I just think a bathing suit will do, i mean: i wouldn't wear one when i'm walking in town or something, but everyone at a swimming pool wears them, so i don't stand out with it :D And if there are any guys that have a problem with that, they are the ones who shouldn't go there (not that i think that there are many guys who have a problem with that, i mean: come on... :rolleyes: )

But that is really a stupid problem, Ephine, especially since you're the one paying the price :(

Copperfox

05-28-2008, 07:34 AM

That was well said, Lieke. The situation does affect what is appropriate to wear. And a woman going ballistic if her boyfriend or husband so much as sees other women in swimsuits raises an issue of hypocrisy in my mind. Here's what I mean:

Many women, as a means of bragging that they are supposedly more spiritual than men, will say, "I don't care what a man looks like; I have the superior wisdom to care about what's INSIDE a person. So what attracts me in a man is his manners, his conversation, etc." Okay, lady, that's fine: you like a man's personal interaction. This means that this boastful woman enjoying a conversation with a man comes to THE SAME THING as her boyfriend or husband seeing a woman in a swimsuit: noticing and appreciating those qualities which, under the right circumstances, could begin a serious attraction. But the boastful woman insists that SHE IS ALLOWED to enjoy the personal interaction, while her boyfriend or husband IS NOT ALLOWED to take any pleasure at all in the sight of some other woman. It's a different aspect of other people that one first notices from what the other first notices; but the SO-O-O-O "spiritual" woman arbitrarily decides that the aspect SHE likes is permissible to enjoy in any number of men, while the aspect HE likes makes him EEEEEE-vil.

This is just one of many ways in which professing Christians can be guilty of "bending the rules" to make themselves believe that whatever they happen to like is especially morally good.

inkspot

05-28-2008, 10:46 AM

Rob won't go to the beach with me because his fiance doesn't like him going to the beach. She doesn't like the idea that he might possibly (GASP!) happen to see another girl wearing a bathing suit.

Now this is the first time I think I have encountered rigidity of that level so close to my family. My mom thinks it's great. She just loves how "conservative" his fiance is.

I just feel that the concept of "purity" reaches a level of insanity if it means you can't even go and enjoy the beach because there is a chance that there might possibly be some girls in bathing suits there. It IS kind of hard to swim in one's clothes, after all. Why would the mere presence of girls swimming cause impure thoughts?
Oh, my goodness! You are correct: that is insanity. You gotta get a bus schedule and take yourself to the beach, Ephinie. Then take yourself home and get away from these nut jobs. This is borderline radical-Islam what you're talking about right here: does your future sis-in-law want all women trussed up in burkas so her animal of a husband won't want to get next to any of them? It's for freedom Christ calls us to Himself, not for bondage! I include your mum in this, with her fully-dressed self on the beach. That's absurd!
I don't understand how a person who loves another in a relationship can have a problem with that. If they trust and love each other fully, then why would this be a problem?
Here's the other problem with your bro and future sis-in-law: if she has so little trust in him that she thinks another woman in a bikini would cause him to be unfaithful, then there is a fundamental problem in their relationship: they have no foundation of trust in each other, or really, in God. That's a poor, poor way to begin a life together.
It's a different aspect of other people that one first notices from what the other first notices; but the SO-O-O-O "spiritual" woman arbitrarily decides that the aspect SHE likes is permissible to enjoy in any number of men, while the aspect HE likes makes him EEEEEE-vil.
LOL! :p

Spare Oomian

05-28-2008, 04:20 PM

Here's the other problem with your bro and future sis-in-law: if she has so little trust in him that she thinks another woman in a bikini would cause him to be unfaithful, then there is a fundamental problem in their relationship: they have no foundation of trust in each other, or really, in God. That's a poor, poor way to begin a life together.

I completely agree with this. In my family dynamics class I took last year, one major RED FLAG my teacher was sure to hammer into our heads was jealousy.
What is a red flag you may ask...A warning sign, A caution signal....I don't even know your brother and I fear for him. If she gets that jealous that easily then they both need help. Her on commitmetn issues and him on getting out of the danger zone. You may think I'm going overboard on what I'm saying, but this is a major sign of possible abuse. Not physical (yet) but emotional. She's trying to isolate your brother from the inevitable....FEMALES.
Just a word of advice...but maybe your brother should seriously take a step back and consider what kind of relationship he's gotten himself into Ephinie.

OH, and btw, if you do end up going to the beach watch out for those rip currents. They're bad lately.

shortangel

05-28-2008, 06:10 PM

here's my opinion on pureity, i believe that dateing, courtship are the subject of everyone's free will, and staying pure until marriage is good :) i also believe that a guy and a girl don't have to fool around even if they are dateing you just have to set boundries otherwise it becomes legalism, the i can't do this or i can't do that because the bible says so has to come out of if you obey the Lord and your relationship with him and trust the bible to lead you in your dateing or courtship situations and then if God says that's the guy or girl then you'll know by prayer and trusting his word :) i also believe that dressing modestly is a free choice trust your desicions about what you wear and don't let people look down on you because you have a low mini skirt on or you dress the way you choose

Ephinie

05-28-2008, 06:35 PM

I include your mum in this, with her fully-dressed self on the beach. That's absurd!
With my mom, she doesn't do that as a "purity" issue. The problem is that she is one of the most critical people I have ever met when it comes to standards of physical appearance. (As you can imagine, I am a huge disappointment to her because of my weight). She won't go to the beach in a swimsuit because she applies her ridiculous standards about what women should look like to herself as well, and so she refuses to allow anyone to see her skin because she doesn't measure up to what she thinks a woman ought to look like.

Also, my brother's fiance and all of her family goes to the same church that my mom does. It's kind of weird to me, because it's an AG church; and I've never gone to an AG church that endorsed that strict of standards. Actually, when I was a teenager, our AG youth pastor took us to Florida several times for the Brownsville thing; and we were all about the beach. We'd spend the whole day at the beach and head in only when it was time to line up to get into the service. I remember there was a rule in church camp that girls had to wear a t-shirt over their swimsuit if it was a two-piece. Other than that, I haven't heard of AG people finding anything inherently wrong with swimsuits.

Elendil

05-29-2008, 06:46 AM

I used to love swimming, then I found out I'm allergic (found out the hard way too!) to stinger, and now even though I live on the beach I rarely go swimming. And i HATE wearing swim suits...I hate wearing dresses/skirts/shorts too...It's silly, but its coz I hate the way I look, or rather my legs look.:o So I normally wear board shorts and some kind of bather top...:rolleyes:
Something that really put me off though, was the fact that I found out (in the town I used to live in were we only had a swimming pool) that a ton of the guys only went there to look at the girls. They didn't even get in the water! That's just...wrong.

inkspot

05-29-2008, 10:03 AM

Gracie, I bet your legs look just fine -- and even if they are not the legs of a super-model, who cares? You get in the water to swim, not to bother about what people are thinking about your legs ...

Same for your mum, Ephinie! What a maniac! How can she be so close to God and concerned about pleasing Christ and realize so little that He looks on the heart and not the body? (And that His opinion is the one which really matters?)

Yah, Ephinie, I would warn your brother to think pretty hard about his future wife if she seriously doubt that he can be faithful to her when confronted with a stranger in a swimsuit. That's not right. At the same time, I know it is very difficult to keep in someones good graces when you are criticizing the one they love, so good luck with that!

Ephinie

05-29-2008, 01:06 PM

Okay, I honestly HATE the way I look in a swimsuit as well - and I'd wager that I look worse than the average woman because of my weight.

But you see, that's a problem. I don't know a SINGLE girl or woman who DOESN'T have a problem with their physical appearance, and I don't know any who would admit that they love how they look in a swimsuit. I've never seen a guy show that kind of attitude, either.

So why do we hate our bodies so much? I kind of feel like it's insulting to God in a way because God gave us the bodies that we have. So yeah, I honestly do hate my body. But I'm not going to ACT like I do. So no matter how embarrassing it might be, I'm not going to let a little thing like not wanting people to see me in a swimsuit hold me back from having fun at the beach or at the pool. I have what I have, so I just deal with it.

You know, that may relate to purity as well - since we are discussing purity as an internal attitude rather than external actions. If we allow ourselves to be ashamed enough of how we look that it affects how we allow ourselves to be seen, it might be like a reverse-psychology purity issue. Maybe?

And as for my little brother - well, he's marrying her. Nothing I say will change that. I really don't want to change it. I'm just kind of an outside observer to the whole thing. I stopped trying to REALLY talk to my family years ago, with a few exceptions. I feel like they have a sort of mental block, so when I speak, they hear what they want to hear instead of what I am saying. Now I recognize that there may be a pride issue at work here that I need to deal with as well, but I really feel deep down that when I speak, people ought to listen to me. I feel like I have a lot of good things to say. So it hurts when I say something, and people completely disregard me. That's why I don't really try talking to them anymore, except in rare instances.

I tried to talk to my mom back when he first starting dating her, when he was like sixteen. He had just turned sixteen at the time, and she was fourteen. I only heard about it from my mom, but it seemed like they had decided back then that they were going to get married someday. And my mom just seemed to really encourage the idea, and basically I just said something along the lines of... maybe you shouldn't be so overbearing with the, "They WILL get married someday" idea, because they are still really young. A lot can happen. I am totally onboard with the idea that dating should be used as a proving ground for marriage, but at sixteen and fourteen? I think that's too much pressure for young people of that age. So much can change during those crucial years. I am not anywhere near the same person that I was at sixteen. But you know, what do I know? How many people actually take advise from their daughter? It's supposed to be the other way around, and I understand that.I just thought there was a lot of pressure there, but it's impossible to say if they were putting that pressure on themselves, and my mom was just going along with it, or if there was also pressure coming from the adults in their lives.

Well anyways, my brother is eighteen now. She is sixteen. They'll be getting married in like Ocotober or November probably.

inkspot

05-29-2008, 01:15 PM

Oh, wow! They are still really young! She should wait until she is 18 anyway. And it makes it even freakier that she doesn't want him to see a woman in a swim suit when she is just 16 ... how does someone get that frightened at that age? You know, a 36-year-old divorceé whose husband just left her for a gorgeous 20-something -- she might be afraid that her next man is going to cheat on her -- but a 16-year-old who has apparently only had one boy friend in her whole life? Why should she have such mis-trust in her heart? That is sad.

Anyone who hates their body, any girl, I would recommend the book Captivating by Mr. and Mrs. John Eldredge, if you are a reader and will take the time to read and understand an adult book with some big words. It presents the beautiful picture of how God sees you ... it's hard to despise yourself when you realize that you are the apple of God's eye, that He finds you captivating.

And I am 100% on board with Ephinie's thought that when you go to the beach, it's not about what other people see when they look at you -- it's about your having a great time doing what you want to do.

I know Brazil is a party place with a lot of spiritism and bachanal all the time, but I saw a TV show about Rio one time, and they were interviewing a couple local cuties who were buying their thong swimsuits to go lay on the sand and play in the waves, and they asked them about these skimpy suits. They said something to the effect: "It's the beach in Brazil, what are you going to do, wear an overcoat? Here everyone undresses on the beach: black, white, young, old, fat, thin ..." It seemed like a good healthy attitude -- it didn't seem to have anything to do with lust or even looking; just the weather and the waves.

Don't be ashamed of your body. It's the one God gave you, and He finds you captivating. :)

Spare Oomian

05-29-2008, 04:59 PM

but a 16-year-old who has apparently only had one boy friend in her whole life? Why should she have such mis-trust in her heart? That is sad.

She obviously has some insecurity issues.
I can't believe a 16 year old wants to get married. I'm 16, and the thought of getting married any time soon makes me want to vomit. In my opinion, they're both way too young.

Everybody has some problems with the way they look. You gotta wonder why. I know some girls who are so beautiful...even close to the "perfect" that hollywood has set up for people. And they still don't find themselves very attractive. It makes me kinda sad...and yet there are plenty of things about myself that I don't like.
I think we've been brainwashed.

Doffen

05-29-2008, 05:20 PM

Everybody has some problems with the way they look. You gotta wonder why. I know some girls who are so beautiful...even close to the "perfect" that hollywood has set up for people. And they still don't find themselves very attractive. It makes me kinda sad...and yet there are plenty of things about myself that I don't like.
I think we've been brainwashed.

Well a funny thing occurred to me while I was reading a few pages of this thread (I tend to read, not to respond), and that would be; what if someone felt good with themselves, but didn't dare say it loud and clearly because you sound like a egoist? If I was to say that I felt good about my appearance and say "My gosh, I'm just so totally über-hot", would /that/ just force you to the ground and start vomiting?

Hollywood actors is a bad example for people who should feel good about themselves. The only thing the strive for is perfection, therefor, they will never be happy. Normal boys and girls doesn't hate themselves for their appearance. I do think though, that it has become like a fashion to seek perfection. It's a plague roaming our society.

Dear I say loud that I feel good about my own body? Of course not. Then I think to highly of myself, afterall, who am I to judge my own appearance...?
Society is well to fixed on jealousy and whatnot, that is what makes me puking.

lieke

05-29-2008, 05:28 PM

You make a VERY good point there, Doffen. Who would ever say that they like the way they look? Wouldn't everyone judge them on it? If i would say, i think i look okay, then wouldn't you think: Yeah, except for your nose, and your left fingertip (;)), etc.

I find that inside myself at times. I think we need to learn to accept ourselves, but also to accept each other!

Glad you pointed that out, Doffen! :)

Spare Oomian

05-29-2008, 05:28 PM

Well a funny thing occurred to me while I was reading a few pages of this thread (I tend to read, not to respond), and that would be; what if someone felt good with themselves, but didn't dare say it loud and clearly because you sound like a egoist? If I was to say that I felt good about my appearance and say "My gosh, I'm just so totally über-hot", would /that/ just force you to the ground and start vomiting?

Hollywood actors is a bad example for people who should feel good about themselves. The only thing the strive for is perfection, therefor, they will never be happy. Normal boys and girls doesn't hate themselves for their appearance. I do think though, that it has become like a fashion to seek perfection. It's a plague roaming our society.

Dear I say loud that I feel good about my own body? Of course not. Then I think to highly of myself, afterall, who am I to judge my own appearance...?
Society is well to fixed on jealousy and whatnot, that is what makes me puking.

You bring up some good points. That's kinda sad that people who actually feel good about themselves are put down.:( What has this world come to?

inkspot

05-30-2008, 10:43 AM

For the record, Doffen is totally uber hot.
(JK -- I've never seen Doffen, but I imagine him to be quite the looker.) :)

So, there is societal pressure on everyone to look like a model, and societal pressure on everyone to act as if they think they look bad? No wonder people are so messed up!

**Doffen alert: inky is about to veer of into the spiritual/God stuff **

Here is what John Eldredge had to say, in Captivating about why women in particular get so stressed out about their lookes and why young ladies and girls have body-image issues: the devil knows how powerful you can be as a woman fully alive in Christ, so he attacks you in the specificually "feminine" areas where you are vulnerable and men are not so vulnerable -- he mines your weaknesses, as it were.

But if you look at yourself and say, "Egads! I am so ugly!" you ought to stop and say to yourself: "Who put that thought in my head? Who am I agreeing with when I think or say such a thing?" Do you suppose it is Christ who put that thought in your head? Do you think you are agreeing with Jesus when you put yourself down? Of course not! He loves you and made you just as you are.

When you say or think bad thoughts about yourself and the way you look, those thoughts are coming from the devil, and you are agreeing with him when you think them, and agreeing with him when you say them. Thus, you are actually trusting what the devil says (about you) over what Jesus says.

Please don't do this! Establishing trust in the devil in any area of your life is bad, bad, bad for that area and all areas of your life. Even if it seems hard, trust what Jesus is telling you: that to Him, you are captivating, you are the apple of His eye.

In fact, I would encourage you to say aloud that you revoke any agreement you inadvertently made with the devil on this subject, and that you are trusting wholly in Jesus and what He has to say about you.

lieke

05-30-2008, 01:26 PM

Hm, part of me agrees with you, inkspot.

But, i do think that there are people who are more blessed in outer beauty than others. I mean, some people are more intelligent, some people are really good at gardening, some people look better. Even in the Chronicles we see that Susan is obviously the better looking of the two girls. That is not denied by anyone, but it is made clear that that doesn't mean that Aslan or anyone else loves her more, or thinks she is more important.

I do not think that it's wrong to say that one person looks prettier than the other, just as its not wrong to say that one person can play the piano better than the other. As long as we all remember that we are wanted and created by God, who made us exactly as He wanted, and that we all have our own skills.

I think an important thing to realize is that beauty is not the 'highest' thing one can acchief, on the other hand, i don't think we could say that there are no differences in beauty.

I do think we can say that for God it doesn't matter, that He considers us all beautiful with our own gifts and talents, and that He loves us equally. People who have great beauty or great intelligence or whatever shouldn't look down on others, and beauty isn't the highest goal one can acchief.

I think a lot of the problems will be solved if we would all stop trying to focus so much on outer looks, and instead focus on who we are in Christ, and work with our own gifts and talents.

~Grateful * Surrender~

05-30-2008, 04:11 PM

On the topic of beauty I am strugling a lot right now. I am over wight and have been since I was 13 (I am 20). My younger sister that we addopted about four years ago is really skinny and the "perfect" girl in looks. I think my dad is emberassed of me and he tends to be more atentive to my younger sister. I just need a little help to figure out how to deel with it. I mean it's not a new problem but I realize that I havn't been deeling wiht it and I am building up resentment towards my dad. I don't want to but I am. anyway just thought I'd ask

inkspot

05-30-2008, 04:30 PM

I would definitely recommend John Eldredge's book Captivating to you. It's a wonderful read for any woman, but especially helpful if there are father issues.

I don't really think your dad can be "embarrassed" of you -- he's your father and he loves you. And God loves you so infinitiely much more. When you feel the urge to get down on yourself, reject it, because it is not coming from God -- it is coming from the enemy. And you don't want to agree with him about something this important.

~Grateful * Surrender~

05-30-2008, 04:33 PM

Thanks Inkspot and actually I have that book just havn't read it yet. But I will :)

Spare Oomian

05-30-2008, 05:02 PM

You know what seems to help with self esteem as far as image goes....completmenting yourself. Sometimes when I'm feeling all gloomy (especially when I'm feeling unatractive) I just look in the mirror and tell that girl that's she's pretty.:D Even though you might not believe it.
But I heard somewhere, I don't remember where, that if you say something enough times then you become it. Like, if you say that your fat or ugly, then other people start to believe it, and so does your body. And so your body adjusts to 'compliment' what your saying about yourself. It might just be a mental thing, but I find some truth in that theory.

NotATameLion

05-30-2008, 10:31 PM

^Yeah, I know what you mean. Sometimes when I'm feeling down about myself, I force myself to think positive thoughts. :p I struggle with my self-esteem and confidence a lot. I'm a very shy person and I'm pretty insecure about the way I look (most of the time), but I'm working on it.

This lady named Angela Thomas has written several books about this kind of thing. I have the one she wrote for teen girls called "Beautiful: Seeing Yourself Through God's Eyes." She's really good! She tells about her life and how she's struggled with the way she looks, and she's very inspiring. I have to reread that book every once and a while to remind myself of how God really feels about me. He created me exactly this way for a reason, and I need to respect that and stop telling Him where I think He messed up. Sometimes when I'm thinking negative things about the way I look, I have to bounce my thoughts. I have this Bible verse on my mirror (in front of which most of my self-esteem battles take place): "The king is enthralled by your beauty. Honor him, for he is your lord." -Psalm 45:11. Also, that verse in 1 Samuel 16 is really good..."The Lord doesn't see things the way you see them. People judge by outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart." And the band Superchic[k] has an awesome song called "One and Lonely", which is really encouraging.

The thing I struggle with the most is that I constantly compare myself to other girls. And I never seem to measure up. This is such a terrible habit! Especially when those other girls seem so beautiful and perfect and always seem to get a lot of attention from guys. I have to always remind myself that God will send the right guy along when it's time, and if those other girls are dressing immodestly, then I don't want attention from those kinds of guys. But still, it's hard sometimes. It seems like I'm invisible to guys. :rolleyes: Don't ask me why that bothers me so much, but sometimes it does.

Well, I guess this doesn't have much to do with purity, but it feels good to say all of that and to know that there are other people here going through the same things I am.

Doffen

06-02-2008, 01:21 PM

For the record, Doffen is totally uber hot.
(JK -- I've never seen Doffen, but I imagine him to be quite the looker.)

:eek: Never seen me? Scandal.. Blasphemi :p

So, there is societal pressure on everyone to look like a model, and societal pressure on everyone to act as if they think they look bad? No wonder people are so messed up!

Of course there is. Saying that you like your appearance is the same as bragging isn't it? ;) ... When I took training like fitness, boxing and strenght building really seriously (about the time I joined this forum) I trained six times a week, and those who knew me at that time (on the forum and of the forum) knew that my life was training at the time. That was the goal of it all. But you never reached the goal, and you never felt complete. If you felt complete, your friends thought you sucked. (I just recently stopped 6 times a week btw... Now I cut down to three =P )

**Doffen alert: inky is about to veer of into the spiritual/God stuff **

Goody!

Spare Oomian

06-02-2008, 05:30 PM

It seems like I'm invisible to guys. :rolleyes: Don't ask me why that bothers me so much, but sometimes it does.

I get what your saying. Nobody likes to feel invisible. I sometimes feel that way. But I just figure that in a way God is just setting me up for a great guy that will be perfect.
Besides, most of the guys at my school aren't the kind of guys I think my heavenly father would approve of.

Solya

06-05-2008, 03:52 PM

I actually seem to be one of the lucky few whose self-esteem survives practically anything, then. I do not think or feel badly about myself at all, because I know I am a valuable woman and seek out the company of people who let me be myself. :) I only have trouble with being around very negative-minded people because they drag themselves and others down constantly. With my penchant for empathy I often find myself empathising with things I don't even want to empathise with when I'm around these people! I prefer to surround myself with positivity in my environment, because it steers me clear of self-doubt and prevents my self-esteem from being taken down quite a few notches.

There has been a period in my life in which I could think nothing else but the thoughts "I am worthless", "I am ugly" and "I deserve nothing better than this". I occasionally revert back to this line of thinking nowadays, because the tendency to get depressed is still in my system, but I can now recognise the warning signs and do something about it before it becomes too bad. :) The things that made me feel like this, however, were the comments of other young people. They were the ones telling me that I was worthless, ugly and not deserving of anything better than what I had. After having been confronted with that for over a year, I began to believe it. It is like they projected their own negative feelings and insecurities about themselves onto me and influenced me into thinking like they felt about themselves. It is something I have only come to realise later on, after this experience had taken place, but I can now recognise these situations and walk away from them instead. Confronting these people barely ever seems to have any immediate effect and it's only ever served to make me feel bad, so I prefer to walk away and keep to myself and what I know is right instead.

As for guys, well... I have been blessed enough to have men walk into my life whose very presence has been very valuable to me. I see my father and I feel nothing but gratitude and love towards him for always being there for me. I see my 'brother' and I know I can always go to him with any problems I may have. I see one of my spiritual teachers and realise 'we are doing the work of God through the things we say to others'. I see my ex-boyfriend and I think 'thank you for teaching me how to reach out to people I never knew I could help'. I see a current, lovely friend who only needs to say one word in order to make me laugh and forget about my troubles. I see my dear 'soulmate' and I am filled with a love so powerful and deep that I could hardly begin to describe it. They all have a presence in my life, even though some are around me more than others are, and every time something reminds me of them I know that they are all human angels sent to me by God. Nothing but gratitude goes to them, no matter how much hurt lies in some memories, because they allowed me into their lives and hearts as I allowed them into mine.

I have, meanwhile, chosen to live by the words of Libby Roderick's song "How Could Anyone"... and therefore chosen to reach out to others with these words vibrating softly in my heart and soul:

How could anyone ever tell you
You were anything less than beautiful?
How could anyone ever tell you
You were less than whole?
How could anyone fail to notice
That your loving is a miracle?
How deeply you're connected to my soul?

Spare Oomian

06-05-2008, 03:59 PM

That's very insightful. You make a lot of good points, and you are very lucky. :)

I actually seem to be one of the lucky few whose self-esteem survives practically anything, then. I do not think or feel badly about myself at all, because I know I am a valuable woman and seek out the company of people who let me be myself. :) I only have trouble with being around very negative-minded people because they drag themselves and others down constantly. With my penchant for empathy I often find myself empathising with things I don't even want to empathise with when I'm around these people! I prefer to surround myself with positivity in my environment, because it steers me clear of self-doubt and prevents my self-esteem from being taken down quite a few notches.

That's probably something I should start doing. Most of my friends aren't the most....spiritual or uplifting friends in the world. Sometimes I feel that affecting me personally.

~Grateful * Surrender~

06-05-2008, 04:05 PM

I don't really have any friends here where I live. I am sort of a loner even though I love being around people. I tend to contredict myself like that. but the friends that I do have (they all live very far away) are great strong Christian people and I notice that when I go to visit them I am not half as hard on myself as I am when I am at home.

Solya

06-05-2008, 04:15 PM

Mhm, Spare Oomian, I believe you should at least try to have one day in the week on which you surround yourself with nothing but positive things and people. For me that is usually a Saturday or Sunday, but I have stretched this out since I started doing it and currently there's no day in the week for me that isn't filled with these things.

I have a few non-spiritual friends. Some are just not interested in spiritual life, whereas others simply do not believe in God or don't know if they believe in God or not. I also have a lot of non-Christian friends (in fact, from the top of my head I can only think of Christian acquaintances) whose spiritual paths differ from my own. I feel at ease around them, though, and they provide me with insights I would probably miss if I just stuck around Christians all the time. These friends lift me up in positive ways, though, and I wouldn't be the same strong person I am today if it wasn't for them.

What I am getting at is this... there are different friends for different purposes. I discuss my spiritual life with about six people whose mindsets are mostly pagan or agnostic in nature but who make me feel absolutely wonderful and connected with God at the same time, but wouldn't dream about discussing my spiritual life with anyone who made me feel like I was anything less than I am. Surround yourself with those who do make you feel good, is my motto!

And Grateful Surrender, I recognise your story. Most of my friends live pretty far away too. I am a loner at heart, but also enjoy the company of others when I feel like it. Whenever I am in touch with my friends, though, I feel like one part of a greater whole. :) It's wonderful.

Spare Oomian

06-05-2008, 04:22 PM

I realize that. But since I don't yet belong to a church, all my friends come from school, and I can't find many who are religious at all. It doesn't bother me, because I accept their views and they (usually) accept mine, and if they, on occasion, put down my religion, I just state what I know and get them to stop. And they make me feel good...my friends are very fun and they help me relax.

But I do wish I had more friends who were more spiritually supportive. However, I do talk to people on here and that somewhat fulfills my need for religious talk. That's why I come on here so often, because it keeps things balanced.

~Grateful * Surrender~

06-05-2008, 04:40 PM

Here, here. I do belong to a church but like I said I don't know many people

PrinceOfTheWest

09-08-2008, 04:17 PM

I hope everyone caught this story (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,418885,00.html) - a popular young woman standing up for what's right, and defending others who do the same. Three cheers for her, and shame on that shallow mocker who forced her to do it!

lieke

09-08-2008, 05:06 PM

And 3 more cheers for her! I don't where a purity ring myself, because most jewlery just hates my skin :rolleyes: But i definatly love the concept of having a purity ring, as a symbol of the wil to stay pure. I'm glad she stood up for what she believed in, woot! :):D And i'm glad to know that there are so many out there still who want to stay pure before marriage. Hurray! Thank you for pointing it out, PotW.

Copperfox

09-09-2008, 11:34 PM

Hurray for Jordin Sparks! While others lazily and stupidly drift with the current, she dares to swim upstream!

Sforzando77

09-09-2008, 11:44 PM

I actually saw it happen on the VMA's. That host was just so rude about it, and he kept bringing the purity rings up and joking about it. I was so happy when Jordin Sparks stood up for what she believed.
And it made me really happy to see that there are still people that care about their purity and stuff. At one point, after a youth group retreat where we focused on relationships and purity, everyone in my youth group had purity rings. Up until earlier this year, my best friend and I were the only ones who still wore ours. It just feels good to know that there are other people out there who share my values. :)

fernshirehobbit

09-11-2008, 01:29 PM

nope, you are not alone! i proudly where mine! :D

Rhyanidd

09-17-2008, 12:59 AM

Second, I had this vague conviction that we shouldn't HAVE to wear a ring to mark our purity... we should just do what was right because it was right. As I said, the purity rings were a big deal at school... almost like a status symbol. I didn't like that. I was like, "Dude... how about just NOT having sex instead of advertising to the world that you aren't."

Maybe, when you were in highschool, thats the way they were, but I do not think they are that way now--at least not where I live, as far as I can tell. (Though, I must say, my powers of observation are not exactly up to par).

I don't wear a purity ring so the whole world knows that I'm planning on waiting until marriage. I wear it because I want to. When I get dressed and put on jewelry I don't think 'What will people think when they see this?' I think 'How do I like this? Does this fit my mood?' (I like to dress to my mood). I very rarely dress/wear jewelry* to get a response from people.

Of course, thats just me. Other people will have other reasons. *shrugs*

(*I say 'very rarely' because there have been some occasions where I dressed in a paticular way to get a reaction out of certain people. But those instances are few and far between.)

Ephinie

09-17-2008, 01:15 AM

I went to a Christian school, though, so that probably had a huge effect on purity rings being considered "cool."

I might also add that not everyone wearing one was actually staying "pure" in that way. But again, at a Christian school where practically everyone is wearing a purity ring... taking it off after having violated the concept that they stand for would kind of be like waving a red flag, going, "Hey! I had sex! Look at me!" Obviously, no one would want to do that... especially not when doing so could cause uncomfortable questions from authority figures (such as parents and teachers, for the kids at my old school).

Dragonchild

09-18-2008, 02:41 AM

Ephinie, I have to wipe a grin off my face right now. If I understand your situation at the christian high-school it would have been difficult for somebody there (btw: was it as "cool" for boys as for girls or was it a girls-school?) NOT to wear a purity ring, right? But if it is sort of compulsory where does the meaning go? If you are earing a visible symbol for some ideal it only works if people recognize it as something different from the ordinary. Maybe it's a bit like people wearing crosses and rosaries all over the place. Since David Beckham and Madonna and such started wearing them the religious meaning has been all but evaporated.
BTW:You are quite right. People do signal many things they'd better be doing than signalling.

Copperfox

09-18-2008, 10:23 AM

Like some who boast about very modest charitable donations they make, while others are far MORE generous, but DON'T go looking for admiration for it. (C.S. Lewis was the second type.)

lieke

09-18-2008, 01:29 PM

SK999111

09-18-2008, 03:38 PM

yup
its down to personal choice
like most things in life
(:

bruiser

09-18-2008, 03:58 PM

If you want to wear a purity ring, you should, if you don´t want to, you shouldn´t. Same for crosses and such. I know it sounds easy, but it´s true in some sense at least:D NO ONE is saying that one needs a purity ring to stay pure. Some say it is helpfull, but that is always personal.

I agree.
I'm basically pure [depending on your definition] and I don't wear a promise ring or anything like that. I think that the ring is a great symbol, but anyone can wear a ring. It takes a true person to back up the symbolism of the ring.

Copperfox

09-18-2008, 06:34 PM

I seem to recall seeing in some obscure dictionary that "true" was spelled A-M-A-N-D-A.

lieke

09-18-2008, 06:52 PM

I agree.
I'm basically pure [depending on your definition] and I don't wear a promise ring or anything like that. I think that the ring is a great symbol, but anyone can wear a ring. It takes a true person to back up the symbolism of the ring.
Exactly! I don't think there is anything wrong with a purity/promise ring, on the contrary, if you like it, or if you think it's helpfull, or if your parents gave it to you or whatever: please wear it! I don't wear one either, but not out of moral principle or something, just because i'm not that much of a ring kind of person :D

EDIT: how about purity socks, would that count? :p No one would see it, purple, with stripes or so... ohhh, that's going to take over the whole christian world:D

Copperfox

09-18-2008, 06:59 PM

As a matter of fact, ancient Hebrews used to use their word for "feet" as a prudish euphemism for the reproductive organs; therefore, "purity socks" would actually be highly appropriate!

Outlaw Paladin of the Palinite Underground!

Lila

09-18-2008, 07:23 PM

I think purity rings are great, but you really have to be careful. You have to be honest with yourself - are you really trying to remind yourself to be pure, or are you trying to flaunt your "godliness"? If you are doing the latter, are you truly pure?

Personally, I don't think I need any physical reminders to help me remember to be pure. I think it would be kind of sad if I needed to glance at my hand every once in awhile in order to remind myself. (Oh, yes! I almost forgot! I can't kiss anyone until I'm married because I want to stay pure. Thank goodness I'm wearing this ring. :rolleyes:)

Now, that's just me!! Please don't be offended by what I said. I think it's totally cool if you have/wear a purity ring. It's a neat concept.

-~-Daisy-~-

09-18-2008, 07:25 PM

yup
its down to personal choice
like most things in life
(:

I agree.
Where in the world HAVE YOU BEEN??????????????

hello mcfly

09-18-2008, 09:22 PM

I personally wouldn't wear a purity ring, because a ring's just a ring, and I don't really need one to remind myself of my purity.
but yeah, that all depends on the person=)

Dragonchild

09-19-2008, 02:03 AM

I agree with those who said a ring is just a ring - theoretically.
My wedding ring also is just a ring, still I never take it off day or night and always had difficulties when it had to be taken off for surgery.

I sure don't need a ring to remember I'm married. But beside the fact that it's sometimes helpful to flaunt a wedding ring to discourage certain people (especially in a bus late at night), I found out than in a very busy and buzzing life like mine (as a stay-at-home mom with four kids, five pets and a six-room house) I can't keep hold onto everything important in my life just by strength of soul and brain. I am often very thankful for these little material reminders. The crucifix on the wall, the pictures of narnia at the kitchen door ;), the arrangement of autumn flowers and berries on the sill, the locket around my neck - and the wedding ring on my right hand.
These things sort of keep the importance of things I do know and feel and think for sure but do not always have the strength to know an d feel and think them strongly. Looking at them teaches me I don't have to. All they stand for is true even if I am just to tired or occupied or weak to make it ring or feel true.

I guess if purity rings were an option I would wear one for that very reason. I never head of them around here, though. @lieke: Do young people wear them in the NL?

lieke

09-19-2008, 07:55 AM

Good point, Dragonchild. I definately understand where you´re coming from. That´s why i don´t think that purity rings are bad in any way, really, i love the idea, but it´s personal. Like the fact that you would still be married if you weren´t wearing a ring. It isn´t neccesary, but it can be a real help.

But no, people around here don´t wear them (as far as i know), first time i heard of them was on this forum, but i get the concept after some stuff persons told me:D But i guess it´s an American thing... ??? Other countries where they are popular?

Desert Wolf

09-19-2008, 12:39 PM

Copperfox

09-19-2008, 11:56 PM

To prod this into some subject _besides_ purity rings:

In "The Beggar's Opera," there is a line of dialogue which is terribly true--_except_ that it is NOT true of ALL men, regardless of the views of the cynical female character who says it...

"All men are thieves in love, and like a woman better for belonging to another."

There are _enough_ men of whom it is true, that the phenomenon is worth bringing to light. Not _only_ do plenty of men like to make multiple "conquests," but some take even _more_ pleasure in outdoing male rivals than in having the women. This is one more thing which you girls need to keep in mind when slick, self-absorbed studs claim that they appreciate you for the person you are: you might be just part of a hunting contest.

gair

09-20-2008, 10:47 AM

notch on a bedpost

TimmyofOz

09-25-2008, 06:23 AM

I have been trying to clean up myself resently and have been having some good results. Been trying to avoid all the garbage on the internet and after my divorce living in Las Vegas as a single was difficult. First I was glad I was able to move out of Las Vegas. But the biggest help for me was really floading myself with the Word of God. I found listening to a lot of Bible studies on my MP3 player has helped alot. It takes time but there came a point when after listening to the Word of God so much that I was able to let go of a lot of garbage in my life.

inkspot

09-25-2008, 01:54 PM

Good for you, Timmy. It's so important what we put into our brains. That poor serial killer ... I can't remember his name, but he killed college girls as I recall, said his whole obsession started from seeing a perverted pornographic magazine when he was a kid. It just switched on something bad in his brain. (Not that I think you were watching porn, Timmy!) It's much better to put good stuff into your head and not take any chances on letting something awful get inside you.

Lord of Light

09-25-2008, 07:19 PM

It's much better to put good stuff into your head and not take any chances on letting something awful get inside you.

I recently learned a technique that does work when one applies it, and it was written in the book God's Gift to Women: Discovering the Lost Greatness of Masculinity. The technique is this: when being tempted in your weak area(say, for example, addiction to video games), you then pray for someone you know is lost and needs salvation. I read this technique and was suprised by how true and how well it works. The only thing: you MUST apply it, or it does you know good.

queenaravis707

10-22-2008, 05:45 PM

Now, I wanted to start a discussion about this because as you can see, looks and clothes have taken a whole new perspective. What was too revealing a couple years ago is now considered 'normal' or 'too much'. Now even some girls in church have lost the true meaning of modesty. Honestly, I don't like what I see anymore... just wanted to see other input on this subject.

EveningStar

10-22-2008, 06:10 PM

"Modesty" is reserving a greater degree of intimacy to a select group. For instance, a stranger can shake your hand, a friend can give you a pat on the back. An uncle can give you a hug and kiss your cheek. Your spouse can kiss you right on the mouth. How you look also relates to how you are touched. You reserve a greater degree of visual intimacy to a select group, or the highest to a mate alone (excepting a doctor, of course).

This is done for a reason, whether from a social or religious standpoint.

Look at your diary...if you have one. It might have a little lock and key to keep CASUAL ATTEMPTS at peeking at your innermost thoughts at bay. It's not exactly like locking encrypted secrets in a safe at Arnold AFB, but it discourages people who are not extremely determined to break in at all costs from feeling it's ok to sneak a quick peek. Modest clothing is like that. Unlike a rhinestone bikini, a full suit of clothing basically says "I'm not easy...I might scream or kick you somewhere."

queenaravis707

10-22-2008, 06:26 PM

That's also another way to look at it! It says a lot about you, and what you would allow others to treat you.

uniquemonke

10-22-2008, 06:27 PM

I'm a mormon, so I like modesty a lot, I agree the styles have changed a lot, so most outfits are not that modest, espspeacilly ones girls wear to church.

loverble

10-22-2008, 06:31 PM

I personaly don't like showing things off. It's for me to see and no one else. Well apart from a mate of cource.

Wearing clothes that cover up all the vital bits is a common curtisy as well. There are just some things I don't want to see, that you get flashed quite often.

Copperfox

10-22-2008, 07:35 PM

Abby, you can't have any idea how thoroughly this topic has already been digested on past threads. But no matter how many times it comes back up, I will reassert something which I know to be true, but which several types of people have a vested emotional interest in not admitting.

Countless nations, throughout most of history, HAVE required women to smother themselves in mountains of fabric. Yet this extreme dress code has NEVER, as in "not ever, nowhere at any time, in no case at all, with no exceptions," been enough to prevent prostitution, rape and adultery from existing. Medieval Japanese women, for instance, consistently dressed so modestly that the only thing the men could come up with to regard as sexy was the neck; but the Japanese samurai nonetheless were EVERY BIT as sexually active as modern-day bar-cruisers in Los Angeles.

Getting in a lather about clothing is a band-aid solution on a ruptured-artery problem. Promiscuity can exist no matter how obsessively we "cover up the girls"....AND CHASTITY AND RESPECT can exist even where girls are NOT made to dress like seventy-year-old grannies. The behavior issues affecting sexual purity are SO much more complex than hemlines, that the frenzied focus on clothes actually does HARM, letting people think they're making a noble difference WHEN THEY ARE NOT.

queenaravis707

10-22-2008, 07:39 PM

Well, I've always believed that girls should cover up themselves so that they won't be distractions toward others. It might not have anything to do with how active they are, but it should stop people from looking at them in the wrong way.

EveningStar

10-22-2008, 07:50 PM

When you wear modest clothing you not only ask for respect from others, you also SHOW respect for others. I wouldn't, for instance, parade in front of my own sister in nothing but a pair of leopard spotted speedos. So why show it off to someone ELSE'S sister?

If your clothing makes a statement, what do you want your clothing to say? "I feel desirable"? Well, perhaps, and it's ok to want to feel desirable, but not in a way that implies that sex is all you got to offer or all you seek in a relationship. I put a great deal of thought into the tie I choose, the way I polish my shoes, and the way I match my socks to my trousers. I don't dress to hide or to show low self esteem or to imply that I am sexually repressed. I dress in a way that says you don't know me until you've talked to me. I like dressing that way.

Let me tell you a little parable. Last Christmas people with newfangled ideas put their gifts to each other under the tree as soon as they stood the pine in the corner. Nobody was allowed to touch them, but they were not wrapped. You could see exactly what you were getting long in advance of getting it. There are two words that describe that: HO HUM. I believe presents are more exciting when they are wrapped up till Christmas morning. I think women are like that too. And ladies, so are men.

In a nutshell, conservative modes of dress say there are things about you that will still be sexy when you're sixty.

Copperfox

10-22-2008, 07:55 PM

My experience doesn't fit in a nutshell; but in, say, a clamshell, I have seen for decades just HOW MUCH of the support for "Cover up the girls" comes from women who are themselves unattractive, and who really have NO OTHER MOTIVE AT ALL for their clothing obsession than SELFISH ENVY of better-looking women.

Besides, I resent the insult to my character that is delivered EVERY time people say that I can't look at a woman in a bathing suit WITHOUT lusting wickedly for her. This is both insulting to me, and simply false.

EveningStar

10-22-2008, 07:59 PM

Why Copper, I'm pretty sure you are reacting to an earlier message and we both posted within seconds of one another.

But it is wrong to say to girls "If you don't show it, you ain't got it."

I said before, and I'll say again, that your clothing is the first statement you make to a stranger. Your clothing should say that you feel sexy--if you do--but it shouldn't ONLY say that. Your clothing should imply that you can't be fully known by someone unless they take the time to CHAT.

loverble

10-22-2008, 08:03 PM

Thats true. Both points. I think that dressing in just jeans and a tee on most days and then dressing up in say a skirt when going out is more what I do. It helps with confidence and the way you feel about yourself. But from exsperience (I know I am young but I have some) that if you wow peopul by dressing up nicely when you go to a party or something then you get a better responce. Peopul are surprised and amazed. Whereas if you are always dressed that way it's not as fun.

But then diffrent peopul have diffrent views on clothes. For instance I would never wear a Burka (sp?) and I don't think some women should be made too. But then I don't think clubbing in a bikini is right eaither... So you just have to find a common ground between the two extreams. Something that you are confortalbe with and hopfully is respectible. As I said, respectible enugh to cover the vital bits quite well...

Copperfox

10-22-2008, 08:06 PM

I am not dominated by outward looks. I had already formed an impression of Mrs. Gil-Galad Took as extremely charming before I had ANY idea at all of what she looked like. But the church-establishment position on attire stands adamantly on the LIE that seeing some female skin is going to turn me into a panting, drooling, grabbing sex fiend.

Have you forgotten the testimony I gave when this all came up the other times? In all the total time of my two marriages, whenever I experienced any temptation to have an affair, it was NEVER, NOT ONE TIME, caused by how the woman in question was dressed; it was ALWAYS, WITH NO EXCEPTIONS EVER, because of her personal ATTITUDE toward me. What I had to resist was warm attentiveness and signal-giving conduct which could have been displayed by a woman in a burka.

EveningStar

10-22-2008, 08:09 PM

Dearest Copperfox,

I'm sure that just because the tiger's tongue is always hanging out in your siggy pic we don't think yours is... ;)

I get the impression that you've faced a lot of hurtful digs and backhands in your life from stuck up folk. None of them came from the people in this thread, I promise you.

Lila

10-22-2008, 08:14 PM

I really think that Copper and EveningStar are really hitting the nail on the head here.

One thing I'd like to point out: When it comes to "distraction," It doesn't really matter whether or not a girl is "covered up". My friend, who is a guy, said that once he was looking in a magazine (:p:rolleyes:) and he say a picture of a woman wearing a leather suit (she was entirely covered). But he was still "attracted" to her because of the way she was standing, and the way the outfit clung to her body. I think he was confused about this, but there's really nothing confusing about it, considering that you could basically tell exactly what she would look like unclothed just by seeing the contours of her body.

loverble

10-22-2008, 08:14 PM

That is true. But then you are older, and much, much wiser then ANY of the boys that I know... I know that all of the boys that I know are intrested in girls because they look sexy and becuse they will 'put out'. The girls that don't get turned down, nearly always. This might just be the boys in my 6th Form but thats the way it seems.
I know that eventualy most will mature and will look at attitudes and look within the women. I know this also from exsperience. But there will always be a persentage who prefer the beutiful girl over the nice girl. But then there will be a persentage who are the opposit.

This is the kind of debate where no one can win becuse it is all about opinions of yourself and others.

Copperfox

10-22-2008, 08:19 PM

Thank you, John. Even more than disliking things being aimed at me which are BOTH insulting AND blatantly false, I am indignant on behalf of girls and women who are not at all trying to be sluts, but who believe (as I do) that even in a fallen world, it IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE for something BELOW the chin to be admired WITHOUT the admiration automatically constituting "adultery in the heart." The way these girls are treated (most often by the envious unattractive women, and by men who have cause to pander to the envious women) is not far at all from the disgraceful canard "It's your fault you got raped, because wearing a short skirt is one and the same thing as yelling 'Please rape me!' "

Something I also said repeatedly in the past go-rounds of this red-herring issue is that for myself, I'm fine with women wearing FLOOR-LENGTH dresses. Those can have the very kind of elegance that you were hinting at. But it is unfair and wrong to treat a girl who doesn't dress that way as if she were the Happy Hooker.

And Loverble, it is not ONLY opinion, because it is a CONCRETE FACT that strict-dress-code societies have STILL had lots of sexual sin, and therefore it is also a fact that dress codes in themselves just are NOT any real protection.

loverble

10-22-2008, 08:28 PM

Yeh thats true Copperfox. That's not what I was trying to get at... I'm just bad at getting things down. What I meant was that the opinions can be backed up by facts but both sides can be. Not that Everning Star is opposing you. He is just bringing in another point of the view. Which is why no one can be compleatly right.
There will always be rape and sexual promiserity (Sp!) will always happen in every nation no matter what you wear. But what is true is that some things that peopul wear are indecent sometimes.

queenaravis707

10-22-2008, 08:35 PM

Modesty is not always just in clothing- it's what you do. You could be wearing a floor length dress with a jacket over it, but could be acting a completely different way that would make a man attracted to her. It's just that clothing makes them more attracted because its physical. But emotionally as well we can have some effects. The way that we do things must also be taken into account.

Copperfox

10-22-2008, 08:36 PM

Queen Aravis, you're exactly right. An average woman IN A BURKA could arouse me more BY BEHAVIOR, just as you say, than Scarlett Johanssen STARK NAKED--but acting uninterested in me.

Loverble, you're a good kid. As a good kid, I think you're teachable. So please understand this. If among Christians NO ONE were addressing the subject of clothing at all, I probably would say something about that precisely because its potential importance was being overlooked. But as it is, the clothing issue, actually only a TINY part of the sexual-purity issue, is EVERYWHERE being treated as if it were the WHOLE issue by itself. Therefore, I am duty-bound to point out the gross imbalance.

loverble

10-22-2008, 08:38 PM

Ahhh riiight.
Well as I said you are older and wiser and yet I am only young so I have a lot to learn through life. That is just what I think at the moment. But if you ask me in a few years I will probly have of changed my mind and will have a complealty diffrent view.

~Lava~

10-22-2008, 10:57 PM

I may have already thrown my two cents in on the subject in previous threads of this nature but here I go again.

I am neither unattractive nor do I flaunt what I have. I have anecdotal proof that my attitude coupled with my clothing makes me less attractive to the campus no-accounts than the actions and dress of some of my friends. I understand where you are coming from CF and I acknowledge that what you say is absolutely true, but I personally do not prefer seeing guys with sagging breaches nor do I want to see a girl whose everything hangs out. In this era, clothing (and the way you wear it) says a lot about you; the message I want to send is that what I have is intended for me, my future husband (if he exists), and, most importantly, it is for God. The most guys I know here at my college are still at the age where they sit at the doors to the girls dorm and check out every girl who walks out the door, my guyfriends (at least some of them) get more excited when the girl who walks out is scantily or tightly clad even if she is not 100% attractive.

Note to girls: Hug-me-tights are just as bad as bare backs sometimes.

Lord of Light

10-22-2008, 11:17 PM

Well, I'm not sure about anyone else, but most of the young men in my youth group don't do that...And fortunately, most of us don't look for HOW a young woman looks. Instead, when we see a young woman, we tend to go toward her, and greet her, and our eyes are usually locked on theirs.

And I have to admit, I'm proud of most of the young women in my youth group, as they all dress modestly, nothing that goes too low on the chest, no skirts that are too short, or even dresses. As such, it tends to make them appear more beautiful, as they don't focus on the physical, but instead, they focus more on the spiritual. And believe me, these young woman ARE physically beautiful. But what makes them even far more beautiful is that they are becoming beautiful in spirit too.

Sadly, those that dress immodestly tend to do so because they want things, which I'm going to refrain from mentioning, because for each person, it would be different. I can only pray that God would work in their lives and change them, for many times, we vainly think that WE can change them.

Copperfox

10-22-2008, 11:37 PM

Lord of Light, you are a Godly youth indeed, and I'm glad that I'm not often forced to disagree with you...

>> Sadly, those that dress immodestly tend to do so because
>> they want things, which I'm going to refrain from mentioning.

Up to a point, even _calling_ the attire "immodest" is giving away the debate to one side before it starts. It is agreeing with the assumption that the sight of any part of the thigh muscle, or any part of the bosom or waist, _must_ cause wild beastly lust in every male beholder. It agrees with the _false_ assumption that absolutely ALL enjoyment of the sight of the human figure itself (in contrast to a wad of cloth) MUST be one and the same thing as adulterous desire.

But there are girls and women who dress lightly because they are _comfortable_ that way--cool, free to move. Even if they also think they look good, this does not mean they're necessarily looking to be deflowered.

If girls themselves decide they want to wear nun costumes, that's okay with me. But _forcing_ them to do so would achieve only resentment. And the _behaviors_ that produce _real_ seductiveness could still be practiced even BY a girl in a convent habit.

Jack of Blades

10-23-2008, 12:01 AM

The thing I hate about these kind of discussions is how they will never come to a conclusion. The Dating thread was the worst, people restating and restating the same thing, sometimes the same people repeating what they said just so that the rest of the people could see that they agree with the rest of everyone.

Let's get some points across. Wearing tube tops to your work place is immodest. Wearing clothes consistently to a nudist beach (let's not even try to find out what's modest for nudists, that is, unless you plan on being one) is immodest. Wearing a bathing suit in the tundra is immodest and impractical. Wearing Victorian style clothing to the beach is immodest.

Webster's Dictionary defines immodest as "not conforming to the sexual mores of a particular time or place."
I think that pretty much speaks for itself.

If people are going to wear low cut shirts, or whatever you consider immodest for a guy, or anything YOU might consider immodest to church, it's not your place to judge them. They've made the decision that to them, that's appropriate to come before God in, and so let them be. Love them just the same as what you have judged to be the "upright Christians". Include them the same. Be there for them the same. Think of them as your sister or brother the same.

And to address the whole getting away with rape thing because she was wearing skimpy clothing, I say, is a load of bull. Maybe she did plan of having sex, but I doubt she meant by dressing seductively that she wanted any drooling sucker in the room.

I hope I have made myself clear.

BarbarianKing

10-23-2008, 12:16 AM

When you wear modest clothing you not only ask for respect from others, you also SHOW respect for others. I wouldn't, for instance, parade in front of my own sister in nothing but a pair of leopard spotted speedos.

LOL! If I did that, everybody would die laughing!

And Loverble, it is not ONLY opinion, because it is a CONCRETE FACT that strict-dress-code societies have STILL had lots of sexual sin, and therefore it is also a fact that dress codes in themselves just are NOT any real protection.

This is true. Although I myself prefer modesty, I believe that imposing a dress code on women implies that it is THEIR FAULT if there are any sexual sins committed. Dress codes leave out of the equation a very important factor. The men themselves.
Men can and should also control themselves and their lust and desires regardless of how a woman is dressed.
Imposing a dress code on women implies that men are just innocent bystanders and as we all know, that is very far from the truth.

Copperfox

10-23-2008, 12:30 AM

That's right. The very same logic which says that an attractively-dressed woman is to blame if raped, would say that if I own a house that is not 100 percent fireproof, this makes it my fault if an arsonist burns down my house.

Near

10-23-2008, 01:29 AM

I believe I'm walking into this thread as an artist...so excuse me for that, however, I have always found the human body to be beautiful. There are days where I am on DeviantART, looking not only at paintings, animations, and abstract artworks, but also artistic nudes.

I 100% agree with Copperfox on this one. Just because a woman dresses more revealing then most, doesn't mean every male will be lusting after her. However, I do believe there is a certain age where it should be allowed.

Also, personality plays a key role in a way someone dresses. I always dress in a t-shirt and jeans, while my best friend is more revealing in her clothes. Some males will find the t-shirt look attractive, while others will find my friend's look more appealing. Similar personalities perhaps? Who knows. I've always seen clothes and dress art related.

Probably why I like watching those fashion shows. :p

dayhawk68

10-23-2008, 01:59 AM

well I usually try to dress modest, but having a well endowed upper body...really big melons...its really hard! Like Near was saying its about personality. I (even though I would love to dress like I did at 7 with the whole grunge/flannel shirt over wife beater look) dress cute. Cute (for me)usually means showing more than what lets say Natalie Portman would show(having a boyish figure). I guess you can say I have Jessica's Simpson's problem when she did Christian music. lol

BarbarianKing

10-23-2008, 02:01 AM

well I usually try to dress modest, but having a well endowed upper body...really xxx xxxxxx...l

Ahem! Sorry! "Family friendliness?"

dayhawk68

10-23-2008, 02:04 AM

Ahem! Sorry! "Family friendliness?"

poo, and I tried so hard to be descrete...poo. well you get it.

Copperfox

10-23-2008, 02:04 AM

Near, thank you EVER so much for the support! And I appreciate you bringing in the age consideration. There are things which don't bother me from a 16-year-old, which are horrible and revolting from a 12-year-old.

And Dayhawk: I won't touch that with a ten-foot metaphor. :rolleyes:

BarbarianKing

10-23-2008, 02:24 AM

poo, and I tried so hard to be descrete...poo. well you get it.

Don't poo me, poo them if you want. I surely would hate to see you banned. Why must you always respond like that to someone who is trying to help you?

QUOTE:

Family Friendly Since the Chronicles are the common interest that draws us here, and the Chronicles are a work of fiction for youth, it's understood that many members here will be young people in the junior high to high school age. Because of this, this forum is "family friendly" - meaning that threads and conversations should be strictly "G" rated. No profanity, abusive conversations, or anything else that you wouldn't want going on in your living room when youngsters are present. This also means that certain topics of conversation are going to be off limits - such as anything you'd want young people to be discussing with their parents before they stumble across them on an Internet forum.

Near

10-23-2008, 02:38 AM

I don't mean to be nitpicky, Dayhawk, but I think a well endowed upper body worked just fine. :) I usually use the correct terms for the human anatomy. However, this is a family friendly forum, so I don't think it's in the best interest to use them...not quite sure.

Copperfox

10-23-2008, 02:41 AM

Copperfox

10-23-2008, 02:45 AM

Um, Dillon, am I just imagining things, or are you TRYING to get banned?

Near

10-23-2008, 02:47 AM

I almost feel like that was a shot at me. :confused:

Copperfox

10-23-2008, 02:56 AM

Near, do you mean that you think _Protagonist_ was "shooting" at you? I hope you're clear that I'm all _for_ you in this discussion. As for Protagonist, sometimes it's a _compliment_ to have him be _against_ you.

BarbarianKing

10-23-2008, 02:56 AM

B-King, although I've had cause myself to be disappointed with a thing or two that she's done, I don't think Dayhawk meant to be disruptive in the matter of...of...of...umm...dairy products. As a college student, she probably moves every day in an atmosphere of such coarse language that it forces her to shake it from her mental feet at close of day.
I understand, really. I myself just got out of college a few months back (thank God!) I just don't think that, in light of what I quoted from the recent posted guidelines, that her post fits TDL's take on family friendliness. I might be wrong, but I did it with the intention to help her.

Copperfox

10-23-2008, 02:59 AM

I think Dayhawk is like my eccentric sister-in-law, Janalee's sister Jeanna (the latter name pronounced the same as Gina). Jeanna is a paradoxical combination of brash toughness and childlike vulnerability.

MRW

10-23-2008, 03:03 AM

As one of the world's most monagamous people, I totally get the purity thing. But, like Copperfox said, there is a difference between finding someone attractive and actively lusting after them, and that's the responsibility of the luster not the person being lusted after. You don't steal things that are on display in a store window, do you? No, and why? Because it's not yours to take. It's an example of what's available to buy in the store, but actually taking something from the display without paying for it is a no-no.

The way people dress says more about self-respect to me than anything else. There is a time and a place for all variations of dress. I don't want to get too far into specifics of how much skin is approriate to show, because each person has a different level of what they're comfortable with. Some women are comfortable wearing a tank top so long as it's not showing the vital parts, while others don't even want to bare their shoulders. And I think that's fine. Like someone else said, the way a person carries themself and how they interact with others is just as much a part of the modesty issue as how much skin they're showing.

A woman can wear a shirt that shows a bit of cleavage, but if she carries herself with self-respect, and doesn't fawn over men or shove it in their faces, I don't think of her as immodest. By the same token, a girl can be wearing jeans and a hoodie and I'll still think she's "too forward" if she's throwing herself at people and begging for their attention. Frequently, however, revealing clothing and the "look at me, I'm loose" attitude seem to go hand in hand, because revealing clothing is an attention-grabber. Thus, the chain of thought seems to be: skin > immodest > skank > I want that, so I'll take it.

I think people should wear what flatters them. I believe the human body was meant to be pretty, and showing appreciation for another person who has taken the time to put themself together well isn't a bad thing. Clothing is meant to send messages, and when it sends the message, "I am a confident, attractive, and interesting person who has things of substance to offer the world," well done.

BarbarianKing

10-23-2008, 03:15 AM

EveningStar

10-23-2008, 09:26 AM

Consider for a moment the "attractive nuisance" principle. In our neighbourhood you can get a ticket for leaving your car unattended with the engine running on cold mornings. Police say this helps encourage criminals by making it so much easier to steal a car, and that it actually militates against their efforts to cut down crime.

You cannot rebut an extreme of "women should wear armour in a particularly ugly shade of rusty lime green" with "women should be able to walk out in postage wearing three postage stamps". Most people--almost all people--would agree that the truth lies somewhere IN THE MIDDLE.

It is almost related to the whole "grace" issue. That if we are saved by grace rather than good works, can a person who does NO good works still be a salvageable person? We would all insist to the last man woman and child that anyone with ANY goodness in them at all would have to slip up and do at least ONE good deed...eventually. So yes, I would agree Copperfox that wearing a thong is not EQUIVALENT to saying "I'm easy, take me down". On the other hand I would have to say that I would expect anyone with any control over their bodily urges would probably let at least a hint of that slip out from time to time in the way they dress.

As I said, the truth is somewhere IN THE MIDDLE.

Copperfox

10-23-2008, 09:54 AM

Problem is, hardly anyone IS in the middle. The secular world, of course, favors the three postage stamps (and not airmail-size, either); but churches ARE heavily pushing for the suit of armor. And the extreme in the church is MORE egregious in a way, because it confers on itself a halo of moral idealsm for ITS obsession, even though for many in the church it's really about self-righteousness, envy of the attractive, shortcut solutions instead of heart-change, and suppression of feeling for the suppression's sake.

Ephinie

10-23-2008, 10:17 AM

Hey guys. After reading through the entire thread, I noticed that the subject being discussed is almost exactly the same as some issues that have already been dealt with in the Purity thread. The subject matter is also close enough that I thought it best if I merged the two. So I did, and I've renamed it "Purity and Modesty."

~Lava~

10-23-2008, 11:16 AM

I would never advocate an state-enforced dresscode where women have to wear a certain amount of fabric to cover up what their creator endowed them with. I most certainly see enough lack of clothing here on the UTM campus to make me know that such a rule would never "take" in America. But I think that the clothing industry should make it easier for those of us who chose to dress in a less revealing way to buy clothing that is fashionable. You can dress in a way that doesn't give people the whole pie and still look nice.

I wear mens jeans so that I don't have to contend with hip-huggers that don't leave much to the imagination. I wear tank tops as long as they are not going be ones that I have to hike up all day. I think that asking brandnames for stylish modesty is the way to go.

I think there is a disconnect between the two sides of this issue on the thread. I doubt that any of the others who are supporting more modest attire want to force it on people. But there are ways of helping it become a cultural norm without making people wear stuff and not conforming to the steadily more revealing style is the way that I (and so many others) have chosen to do so.

Copperfox

10-23-2008, 11:29 AM

>> I doubt that any of the others who are supporting more modest
>> attire want to force it on people.

You haven't been to some churches that I've been to. A coterie of dowdy women holds powerful sway; they envy and therefore hate women who look better than they do; the pastor is dependent on them, and so must cater to their jealousy and prejudice; thus the pastor as much as tells the young ladies that they are bimbos if they let it be known that they have knee joints.

~Lava~

10-23-2008, 11:31 AM

In this sense, then, I am glad to be Catholic. I was talking of the people on this forum though.

EveningStar

10-23-2008, 12:22 PM

I love Copperfox dearly. Without uttering a hint of "however", in addition to loving him dearly, I wish we all would avoid the attitude "They're going to over-react, so we must over-react too". Here on the forum, especially in Socratic Club debates, I pray we would look for answers, not victories. Let the truth, rather than one side or the other, emerge as the victor.

Copperfox

10-23-2008, 01:19 PM

I'm not advocating any extreme position, unless a Pauline stand for freedom of conscience is extreme. I'm not setting the fire, only giving the alarm. OUTSIDE of Christendom, sexual permissiveness is of course extreme unless you're in a Muslim country; but WITHIN Christendom, the extremism is to be found on the side of making women feel guilty for looking good. I'm fine with any of a huge variety of clothing and grooming styles--that is, OVER the age of 16 or 17. I'm not the one imposing rigid requirements--not that I'm saying the Magister IS imposing them. If any woman WANTS to wear a hideous, grotesque, repulsive, shape-distorting mid-calf skirt, as opposed to the STILL LONGER skirts which are graceful and elegant, that's her call to make. I support more, not fewer, options in personal appearance.

inkspot

10-23-2008, 03:33 PM

EveningStar

10-23-2008, 03:39 PM

Congregations are families, and families are diverse.

Look at the following factors:

1. Economic Class
2. Region of the country
3. Racial or ethnic allegiances
4. Denominational affiliation
5. Local history

All of these are going to affect how a parisioner in a miniskirt is perceived (especially if the parisioner is a man...).

John

MRW

10-27-2008, 04:52 PM

I've never been to a church that has a dress code, but I've certainly attended church schools that did. My high school was fairly middle-road when it came to attire (though it took a very conservative stance on jewelry), but there are some schools run by my parents' demonination that are quite strict on the issue. When I was choosing a high school, I sent away for the schools' rulebooks, and there were one or two that didn't even allow women to wear trousers unless they were doing manual labor. Of course, most of the schools that are that conservative aren't actually run by the church; they're privately owned and run by conservative church members.

What Copperfox is saying probably does happen, especially in smaller, conservative churches. There are members of my parents' church (which is more liberal than some) who act that way. In my parent's denomination, jewelry tends to be more taboo than a short skirt, so I had a woman I've known all my life express shock and horror when she thought I'd pierced my ears, and extreme relief when my mother explained that the earrings were magnetic. If most of the church members held her conservative views, I have no doubt that there would be sermons regarding such things.

However, EveningStar is also correct. The views and attitudes of churches are very individualized. My university's church (same denomination as my parents') is huge and quite diverse since there's probably a thousand university students as well as the local church community who attend, and there a lot more important things for the pastor to preach about than the length of a girl's skirt or how much jewelry she wears.

Lady Badger

10-27-2008, 08:13 PM

I agree with a Baptist women's website that says in order to dress modestly, wear clothing that naturally draws attention to your face.

This is an edit...
This is a place where everyone is welcome to talk about their thoughts, struggles, questions, or just to see what we are all about...maybe even share your opinion even if you don't agree. So just come hang out and be welcomed and encouraged.

Original:
Hey i need some people i can talk to about waiting...just cause i dont have any on here :)

Lord of Light

10-27-2008, 09:12 PM

Hey i need some people i can talk to about waiting...just cause i dont have any on here :)

If you are referring to remaining pure until marriage, I would like to recommend a book, which I've just started, but I can already sense it will greatly help me to wait until God has shown me the woman He wants me to marry, if He wants me to marry at all. The book is called When Dreams Come True by Eric & Leslie Ludy. There is also another book by them called When God Writes Your Love Story, which is their number one bestseller. I haven't gotten it yet, as it was ordered a short while ago. But once I get it, I'll probably update on what it teaches me.

Nightcrawler_Fan

10-27-2008, 09:31 PM

I'm a princess in a tower waiting for my prince
I want to keep my heart pure until he comes for me.
I don't want to give my heart away to soon
I want to wait for my fella whom
God has prepared for me
I don't want to have a man who's dated seven girls
But then I have to think about myself
So that I can tell my prince that he'll get my heart and he'll get it all
So God please help me everyday
To guard my heart forever more
So that when my prince does come for me he'll get my heart and he'll get it all

Copperfox

10-27-2008, 09:34 PM

Nightcrawler Fan, your lines sound good at first, and I'm sure they sound good to yourself. But think again about what you're saying when you say you don't want a man even to have DATED other girls. Are you going to PUNISH a good-hearted young man for not having happened to find you first?

Nightcrawler_Fan

10-27-2008, 09:37 PM

Actually my friend wrote it. And I'm not sure that that is what she meant. I think what she meant was that if you did marry someone who had dated seven other people that you wouldn't want part of their heart to stay with each of those seven people. I think staying pure is not only being responsible but also not becoming attached to the "wrong one". If that makes any sense.

Copperfox

10-27-2008, 09:42 PM

It makes lots of sense in theory. But there are both young men and young women who set out with an entirely sincere intention of staying pure, and indeed they DO stay pure, but they just don't happen to have the roulette-wheel success to have the VERY FIRST person they take a romantic interest in turn out to be God's choice for them. Your friend may be patting herself on the back for her "high standards"....but in practice, what her words do is to condemn as "damaged goods" millions of righteous young Christian people who, though WITH SEXUAL ABSTINENCE UNBROKEN, committed the "crime" of having a social life.

Nightcrawler_Fan

10-27-2008, 09:55 PM

Yes, but you can have a social life and still not become to attached to someone. Sometimes it's hard. And sometimes unavoidable. Sometimes we have great ideas and we're like "I'm not gonna fall in love with anyone but the one God has chosen for us." But we end up falling anyway. But what I'm saying is not to get so attached that after you're married you think about them and your heart is still with that person. Don't get me wrong. you love your spouse but you still have a special part of your heart that belongs to the other person.

SongsofLife

10-27-2008, 10:01 PM

The advantage of dating (in purity) is that it helps us further define what we want in a spouse, also to determine if it's God's will to be with that person. Plus, the more we date, the less we will wonder "what if I had dated more?" Plus it develops character and moral discipline.

Copperfox

10-27-2008, 10:07 PM

Thank you for the breath of good sense, Songs. Unlike some people, I can count on you NOT to insinuate that I didn't give totally committed love to Mary and Janalee in their turns, just because, before each one, I had been left to SEARCH for love with no neon sign helping me from Heaven.

SongsofLife

10-27-2008, 10:21 PM

Anytime, Copperfox. Glad I helped. :)

Nightcrawler_Fan

10-28-2008, 08:13 AM

I am sorry if I offended anyone. I was just thinking as I typed.

SongsofLife

10-28-2008, 11:52 AM

Food for thought as we pursue purity and modesty

1 Corinthians 10:13

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Many people struggling with temptation are faced with a double burden. They not only struggle against the temptation itself, they also struggle with guilt for feeling tempted at all. “If I really loved God,” they say, “I wouldn’t feel this way and I wouldn’t be tempted.” Such people need to remember the church’s Tradition regarding what it calls “concupiscence.” Concupiscence is the weakness and inclination toward sin that remains with us even after original sin has been wiped away in baptism. It is like the trick knee that plagues us long after the successful surgery has repaired the injury. Concupiscence is not the injury itself, just the weakness that remains behind. Thus, the church tells us that concupiscence is not, of itself, sinful. Rather, it is a sort of “tinder for sin” that need not be set on fire if we ask for and receive the grace to resist the temptation. Indeed, our struggle against concupiscence is not only not sinful, it is actually an occasion of glory for us as we join the ranks (and receive the rewards) of those who “conquer” (Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21). So don’t be burdened by guilt as you struggle against temptation. God knows your weakness and desires to help you, not harp at you. Moreover, God delights even in your failed attempts to honor and obey him. To all who struggle against concupiscence, he says, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant.” So turn to him and ask his help. He desires to give you grace, not guilt, for the struggle.

from http://catholicexchange.com/2008/10/28/113850/

Copperfox

10-28-2008, 11:55 AM

It's okay to think while typing, provided you can also learn while reading.

Nightcrawler_Fan

10-28-2008, 03:35 PM

I try to learn but sometimes it's hard. :}

Copperfox

10-28-2008, 03:42 PM

Actually, Nightcrawler Fan, you learn more if people DO sometimes make you examine the impact of words, than if nobody bothers to do that for you. I like to see young people gain more wisdom; it's one of the few consolations of being so dratted old myself. :rolleyes:

Nightcrawler_Fan

10-28-2008, 03:46 PM

:} Thank you Copperfox for making me think about what I say. :} I don't always do that.

jesus_narnia_freak7

10-01-2009, 01:16 PM

Hey all just came back to check this out...and while I don't have time to read all the posts I did see this one...
You know, I have somewhat the same problem. There's this guy that I like...and I don't want to. Every once in a while I get rid of these feelings, but when I start talking to him more, the feelings come back.
What I've been doing is just ignoring the feelings, and trust that God knows what he's doing and everything will work out.
Now, is there a reason you don't want to like him? Who am I kidding, there probably is...but is it a really good reason? I mean, do you think it might just be more fear than anything else? Maybe these feelings aren't such a bad thing.

Hmm I think that some of it had to do with the fact that his standards and my standards are not the same...(this is going to sound hypocritical based on other posts on here) he dates (or has dated don't know if he still does), his choice in entertainment is not up to par...for me (um Family Guy...course don't know that he still watches it), I think part of it might be fear and, while my mom loves him to death, she doesn't think he is the guy God has chosen for me...(don't get me wrong she is by no means overbearing and would honor my decision if sometime in the future God said we were to be together!). A lot of it has do with frustration too...infatuation=almost obsession.
Ok that was to answer that question...here's where I am now...
I still, at times, think I like him, but now I don't know. I am trying to be focused on "being the girl, rather than looking for the right guy." I am learning to say, when the question "do you think you are called to be single?" comes up, whether from myself or others, "Today I am."

Hope y'all doing well and I probably won't be back on here again for a long time...ttyl

lieke

10-01-2009, 01:41 PM

You know, it might just be me, but i really don't think God actually 'calls' many people to be together.

I believe it does happen, just like God calls some people for special tasks in His kingdom, and just like He calls some persons to do something at some moment, that they couldn't have known otherwise. BUT just like God doesn't call everyone for a special task, i don't think God literally calls everyone for a specific marriage.

I'd like to compare it to Paul's calling, Paul's calling was dramatic, overwhelming and very, very clear. He got converted in one of those 'spectacular' ways, so to speak. So that's really great (it is!). But, i didn't get called by God like that, and probably not many of you did. That doesn't mean we're anything less than Paul is, we're still christians. God just has a different purpose with it.

Both of my sisters are happily married, yet they both did NOT hear God's voice saying 'that's the one' when they met their husbands. And i don't think God does that very often. He does it at times, so don't think that i don't believe it. But i really don't think God does it like that regularely.

He has given us some guidelines, what we should look for in a spouse, the most important one being that you both should serve Him. So He didn't leave us with nothing to know about. But He also never promised that He would actually 'point out' the one you're 'supposed to marry'. God has given us common sense too, and my common sense tells me not to get married to someone i couldn't live with, or who has really different values, or i just don't like that much, or anything else.

PLEASE don't get me wrong. I TOTALLY want everyone (including myself) to involve God in their relationship, that's the most important thing. If you're in love, talk to Him about it, ask Him what He means with your life and with your feelings. But it worries me at times that all people seem to think that God actually points the right one at you. And i just don't think that happends very often. I believe God can guide you perfectly fine without having to point. I mean, when i'm looking for a job, i pray about it, i talk about it to God, i talk about it to people i trust, i ask people to pray for me. But 9 out of 10, i don't get a 'note from heaven' telling me what to do. That's not because God doesn't want us to know what His plan is, but i think it's because He didn't give us our brains for nothing.

I completely believe that God can tell people to wait, or tell people to 'go for it', but i don't believe that every 'Godly' relationship starts with God telling both partners 'hey look, you are supposed to be together, here's a note from heaven'. I know so many people (all christians) who got married without that 'note', and are still happily married. It's not about getting the voice from heaven, it's about living in a clear relationship with God, and talk to Him about it, and then trust that He won't let you make a huge mistake. That is also why i don't think it's wrong to 'search for someone', instead of waiting for him to pass by, 'cause you never know if that is God's way of showing you. NOTE: not saying of course that one should be completely obsessed with looking for guys, but one shouldn't be obsessed about anything (besides Narnia, that is:p)

I believe God has a plan with each of our lives, but as i can see from my own life, and you probably from yours, God doesn't tell us each time to go 'left' or 'right', many times we know things through our Bible, at rare times God actually tells us something right from heaven, but also many times, both option A and option B are good options, and we pray about it, and talk about it, and then still have to make a decision.

Thoughts anyone? (Btw, and just ask me if you don't get what i meant, i tend to be confusing at times :rolleyes: )

Copperfox

10-03-2009, 11:47 PM

God absolutely did direct ME into both of my marriages. He didn't have to do it by an audible voice; a lot of it was a matter of divine door-closing.

Ephinie

10-04-2009, 01:10 AM

God absolutely did direct ME into both of my marriages. He didn't have to do it by an audible voice; a lot of it was a matter of divine door-closing.
What do you mean by divine door-closing? Please tell me that isn't Christianspeak for, "The people that I actually -wanted- to marry became unavailable to me."

Also, I agree with Lieke here - and not just about relationships. I believe there are going to be a lot of major life decisions that are completely your own decision, and God doesn't point you which way to go. You just have to choose what you think is going to be right based on the information you have on hand at the time.

Beloved

10-04-2009, 01:23 AM

I am a regular church-goer, and I have seen nothing of the extremism CF says is present in the churches he attends. In my (Protestant) church, and in any church I have visited in recent memory, there is no dress code, and I have heard no mention of what anyone "ought to" wear from the pulpit or in casual conversation with other believers. The only time I even remember the issue is once when the very adorable young lady in the row in front of us was wearing one of those lacy thongs that the back came up much higher than her hip-hugger slacks, and the thing was red while the pants white, so you couldn't miss it. After the service on the way home I asked my hubby had he seen it, and he said, "Oh my gosh! How could I not see it?!" but he wasn't going to bring it up, didn't figure it was any of his business, until I did. We had a chuckle, and that was it. For my part, I had no reflections on the girl's purity, or modesty. She was a sweet looking kid who had made a fashion faux pas, that's all.

I don't think so many Christians are so pre-occupied with the subject.

My uncle's church is MASSIVELY OBSESSED on the topic of women's dress and appearance and has RULES enforcing how they wear their hair, who can and can't wear how much make-up, how long skirts/dresses can be, if women are ALLOWED to wear skirts... So, just because your church is fortunate enough to not be wasting their time in bondage to dumb laws that aren't in line with the Bible, but are of the nature of the Pharisees' hypocritical appendages to the Bible ... doesn't mean that other churches aren't. I've seen what CF is describing firsthand (having gone to a Christian school for most of my life, a Christian ministry for 12 months and another Christian ministry off and on over the past 11 years) and it is quite a shame when self-righteous leaders impose guilt unnecessarily and CALL it "promoting modesty". Modesty in and of itself is fantastic. I dress modestly myself and feel that others should, too. But when it all comes down to it, what are the real, heart issues at hand?

Copperfox

10-04-2009, 09:41 AM

Thank you for stepping in, Beloved. I bear public witness that you do have the physical attributes which would allow you to look superb in revealing attire, but that you choose not to show off your attributes.

Now, Ephinie, you say to me:

>> What do you mean by divine door-closing? Please tell me
>> that isn't Christianspeak for, "The people that I actually
>> _wanted_ to marry became unavailable to me."

There has been an element of this in my experience, but it was FAR from being the whole story, so to point to this element alone would be wildly misleading. MORE often, it involved my finding out that someone initially attractive to me WASN'T so suitable as at first I thought. The real point is that, in various ways, God DOES give explicit do-this-instead-of-that guidance.

When He chooses to.

It was by His clear guidance, for example, that I enlisted in the Navy. He did not just leave me on my own to shoot in the dark for an answer on that choice. If our own minds can do the job, yes, He leaves it to us. But when it's just NOT clear which of two or three valid-looking options is best to pursue, He sometimes DOES shine a spotlight on the right-est one.

lieke

10-04-2009, 02:34 PM

But when it's just NOT clear which of two or three valid-looking options is best to pursue, He sometimes DOES shine a spotlight on the right-est one.
I agree, He sometimes does. But many times He doesn't. I've had choices in my past, that all looked good, and i didn't know what to choose. And then you pray about it and talk about it, but sometimes God just does NOT show you the 'right' one, and you need to determine it on your own. So you follow your own mind, or you talk to people you trust, or you just follow your gut feeling, or whatever.

Beloved

10-04-2009, 07:28 PM

I agree, He sometimes does. But many times He doesn't. I've had choices in my past, that all looked good, and i didn't know what to choose. And then you pray about it and talk about it, but sometimes God just does NOT show you the 'right' one, and you need to determine it on your own. So you follow your own mind, or you talk to people you trust, or you just follow your gut feeling, or whatever.

If you've prayed about it, contemplated the best outcome, taken counsel from other Christians, and STILL don't feel entirely led to one over another of something, usually those are times when the Lord is teaching you to make decisions, and since he DIDN'T give you an obvious red flag/stop lights/yield sign, DIDN'T slam doors shut, DIDN'T re-route roads to make things impossible for you (as he's done for me time after time after TIME), then it's usually a good indicator that either option is going to be ok for you in the long-term, and that God is able to do whatever he wants in your life and others by either choice. So, you get to pick the green or the purple dress, and God is ok with either. Or you can choose Stan or Steve, and God will bless either choice. Or you can go to Wheaton or Moody College and you will learn the things He wants you to learn and meet the people he wants you to meet. He is the master coordinator, even when it seems like he's not actively pushing you around.

If there is DEFINITELY something God wants you to do and you *have* sought him and godly people about it, it's usually pretty hard to miss it, unless you have hardened your heart, closed your eyes and plugged your ears (and even sometimes THEN God won't allow you to pretend not to get it).

:)

lieke

10-05-2009, 06:51 AM

Beloved

10-05-2009, 02:03 PM

Believe me, when i have those kind of decision, i really want to hear God's voice in it, so i search for it everywhere.

What i opposed, is the thought that the only way you could ever date a guy, is when you've been clearly shown by God Himself, that He's the one. Because it just doesn't happen all the time that God 'points' from heaven, and a light falls on the person you're supposed to be marrying. I do believe God can show guidance, but maybe through the other person, or through circumstances. I do believe that at times He does point from heaven, but i don't think one should wait until the Lord actually does that, because in many cases He doesn't, you need to play an active part yourself.

It's like being converted. Some people have this spectacular and dramatic conversion, like Paul. Other grow up with christianity, other just get converted throughout the years. That's not a bad thing, not everyone gets converted like Paul, and if you have to wait for that 'spectacular spiritual feeling' to come before you're really converted, you are probably waiting needlesly. Because there are other ways of telling one's converted or not.

Just like with relationships. At times it's just so really really clear that God wants to people to be together, the 'pointing situation'. In other times you just know someone you're entire life, and then realize there might be something more. And sometimes there just is a relationship without clear guidance of God, i mean without clear pointing guidance of God (since the fact that you even met is already His guidance).

It's not necessarily better if you get His pointing guidance (in fact, it might be overwhelming). But i really don't think you need to wait for His pointing guidance, since He gave us soooo many other ways of making decisions, not only His direct intervention. And at times when i read this thread i feel like people are waiting for God's pointing guidance, and i think that some of them are waiting needlesly, since God might have a different plan for them. Plus you need to take an active part in it too, i mean, if you sit in your house, waiting for the right guy to knock on the door, because 'God will show you who he is', i don't think most people will meet him. Some will, but it just doesn't work that way all the time.

Having said that, of course one should seek God's guidance for that desicion, for every decision in fact. But we all know God doesn't always make explicitely clear what He wants, and we go through a few steps.

1. Pray about it to Him, ask Him to give you direct directions.
2. Read the bible about your subject, God gives directions through His word.
3. Talk to other people about it, ask them what they think.
4. Ask yourself what you think, your own feelings can be a direction too. If A feels worse than B, God might be showing something through your feelings.
5. Look at the circumstances (if you can't afford college A, and you can afford college B, well...).

number 1 isn't better than number 5, they're just different. Lots of decisions get to be made by number 3/4/5, and those can be guided by God too, only not that direct.

So i do believe God gives a lot of guidance, i just don't believe it must come direct. And i do believe in playing an active part in it, always while praying to Him about it.

I don't think God should HAVE to put on a light-show to get his people to understand which people would make good mates and which would not. If you can be led by the "still small voice", then that is probably ideal since God doesn't ALWAYS show up in the huge wind. If you can't use the common sense and the Holy Spirit that he's given you to make a good choice (in combination with prayer for guidance and with listening to the counsel of other Christians who can see the situation WITHOUT hormones and attachments clouding their vision) then you're probably in pretty rough shape and have more important things to consider than simply finding a spouse.

And I agree with your statements about conversion (it's not always showy and dramatic and emotional. I think CS Lewis said, about the day that he came to Jesus, that while he was out driving one day he wasn't a Christian at the beginning of the road, and at the end of the road, he was. Loose paraphrase of the story. You should check out "Surprised by Joy" sometime, if you haven't) In the same way, you're absolutely right, you can "know" that somebody is the right fit for you WITHOUT it being a huge affair.

So, while I don't think people who desire a spouse should sit in their home and wait for the pizza delivery man to come sweep them off their feet, I don't know that it's always the right idea to go out and HUNT for him, either. Go about your life, and you'll probably bump into each other at the grocery store and connect without even looking for it. Happens often enough. If there's one thing I hear a lot, it's that people found the love of their life when they WEREN'T LOOKING. When they finally stopped going on the prowl for a husband or wife, they meet him/her. Bam. Fireworks. Explosions. Lightning. Or maybe something more subtle. ;)

There are some decisions that are less life-and-death than others, and I think God is a competent Being who desires the good of his people. If we are genuinely seeking him, he knows the desires of our hearts, he knows timing, he knows others who would work well with us, and he's great at putting people in the same place at the same time without them even knowing... he gets a kick out of that, I think. I think God definitely has a romantic side. He CREATED romance, after all. I'd think he could do a better job than us (or eharmony) at "match making" or any other kind of bringing people together.

It could very well be that you COULD choose to be with either of two men/women, and that God would be pleased with either, and he is letting you make a choice. If one is secretly an abusive jerk, God will probably try to get your attention and steer you away from him before you tie the knot with somebody that seems otherwise perfect (since there are some things that people don't show while they're dating). At that point, though, people are so often fixated on getting what and who they want, that they ignore God trying to tell them to go away from that person, and insist on going through with it... and later blame GOD for not "directly intervening."

That leads into a whole new can of worms about "What to do once you realized you're married to a nightmare" and when abuse legitimizes divorce, I suppose, but it's worth mentioning.

Oh, and I do think "1" IS better than "5". God did give us common sense and wisdom, but think of Joshua with the Gibeonites in Joshua 9 ... since they ONLY relied on their common sense and observation WITHOUT consulting the Lord, they got duped (and then had to keep their promise to protect them).

It's good to use those things in combination. "There is a way that SEEMS right to a man and in the end leads to death," as Proverbs puts it.

Copperfox

10-05-2009, 02:24 PM

Another challenge/complication is trying to determine the "duration" of a piece of guidance God has given at one time. There was a time long ago when God literally and clearly told me to read Isaiah 56:4-5, as an exhortation to me to bite the bullet and accept that I was not going to have what I desired. Yet by now, I have had two wives, to each of whom God unmistakably directed me; so obviously the denial message was not of unlimited duration with respect to married love. I therefore can at least hope that I will be granted a third wife--who will outlive ME for a change!

lieke

10-05-2009, 05:59 PM

Beloved, i kind of completely agree with everything you said. And i didn't mean for everyone to go and 'hunt' spouses, rofl :D.

And about '1' being better than '5'. In a way it is, and in a way it isn't. In the example you provided, you were right. Always consult the Lord in making decisions like that. So i think one should basically look at 'all the steps' (unless it's already clear by number one, or something). So i definitely didn't mean that if the circumstances point one way, you don't need to ask God. I just meant it is possible that if you have asked God, and asked others, and asked your common sense, and in that case did connect to God in the decision making process, it could be that the thing you finally base your decision on are the circumstances, just because God Himself, and other people, didn't provide a decision yet. In that way, it's not better to choose one than five. Maybe it's better to say: it's not wrong to base your decision on the circumstances, if God hasn't shown you otherwise.

And about what you said about 'what to do when you realize you're married to a nightmare': i really really don't know. I'm not married, and i really hope i'll never be in that situation. But what one should do if a marriage really doesn't work out, i don't know. I mean, i know some things one could try, but i don't think i'm the person to talk about that at all. And there are so many things involved, like 'are there kids' and all those things. I mean, from my perspective at this time, i wouldn't stay under the same roof with a man who i knew was abusive to my kids, i'd go away immediately. But that opens the whole 'when is divorce the least worse of the two options' thing.

Ephinie

10-06-2009, 04:17 AM

There is a website that I really wish I could post a link to here, because it has a page that has an extensive list of things to "watch out" for in a man you could potentially be dating. Some of the things listed (there are over 100) are a little strange-sounding, but many of them are good. And some of them just sound like good common sense (for example, "He hurts pets or talks about how he has hurt them in the past." or, "He dumped his ex in an incredibly mean way - in front of her friends, or at their wedding, for example. Then tells you about it in great detail, with pride in his voice, expecting you to be impressed."). But when one is looking at someone who one wants to date, sometimes common sense isn't immediately apparent. So I really like the idea of having this list - particularly because it could help out girls who just don't have enough life experience to understand that sometimes things a guy does that seem sweet can actually be warning signs. But alas! There is a swearword in the title of the website. :(

The point is, sometimes you have to be really careful. Especially when it can seem like God is directing you to someone, but it is really freaking easy to get your signals crossed about a person. And there -are- bad people out there who can be real charmers. So looking at a check-list of "warning signs," can sometimes help people think about if someone is really good for them or not. Because even if God is trying to tell you to get away - doesn't mean that will be enough for you to hear or listen.

Copperfox

10-06-2009, 08:19 AM

Without having seen that list, I would not be surprised if it included the following "clue":

If the man says to the woman, "I want you to keep your freedom," he may really mean, "I want to keep my freedom--the freedom to dump you anytime I wish."

Animus Wyrmis

10-06-2009, 06:48 PM

There is a website that I really wish I could post a link to here, because it has a page that has an extensive list of things to "watch out" for in a man you could potentially be dating.

So looking at a check-list of "warning signs," can sometimes help people think about if someone is really good for them or not. Because even if God is trying to tell you to get away - doesn't mean that will be enough for you to hear or listen.

Could you link to it without naming the title, and warn for language? Would that be okay? Or could you quote, I dunno, the first fifteen or so?

jesus_narnia_freak7

01-26-2010, 01:49 PM

This is my last post here.
I just wanted to say keep living pure before your God and seek His applause only. Here are a few sites I want to leave you with
Set Apart Girl (http://www.setapartgirl.com/home.html)

Bravehearted Thoughts (http://ellerslie.com/BThots_Archive.html)

I hope these encourage your walk with Him!
Through Christ,
Brooke

Glenburne

01-26-2010, 02:20 PM

If the man says to the woman, "I want you to keep your freedom," he may really mean, "I want to keep my freedom--the freedom to dump you anytime I wish."

Good point, Copperfox. When we think of divorce today, we often think about the woman's freedom, but, in discussing Matthew 18 last semester, my New Testament professor pointed out that, in ancient times, "no-fault" divorce was about the man having the right to dump the woman for whatever reason he felt like (burning his bread, for example). Apparently the Jewish rabbis of the day were divided into the stricter Shammai school, which opposed divorce except in the case of unfaithfulness, and the more "easygoing" Hillel school, which held the "no-fault" divorce view of the day--totally to the woman's disadvantage. Some Hillel rabbis were basically serial grooms, dumping their wives immediately if they became interested in someone else. (And, in a world where most jobs involved manual labor, the dumped wife would often wind up being unable to provide for herself.)

Jesus, when questioned about his views on marriage, didn't refer back to the teachings of either rabbinic group, but rather back to Genesis, where God spoke of a man and his wife becoming "one flesh," and that for that reason divorce was not an "all right" thing for men to do to their wives, but rather a consequence of their sin.

All that isn't to say that divorce is wrong for an abandoned spouse, but rather to reinforce Copperfox's point: be suspicious when men claim to want "freedom" for their wives!

Copperfox

02-01-2010, 10:06 AM

Yeah, my pastor once preached about the very things you just referred to. Hillel is obviously grossly overrated by those who have tried to set him up as a competitor to Jesus, EVEN IF Jesus had been only a mortal man!

When a man scorns committed marriage as "just a piece of paper," the way to bet your money is that all of his claims to love his girlfriend are themselves even LESS substantial than a piece of paper.

Lord of Light

02-03-2010, 05:24 PM

inkspot

02-03-2010, 05:29 PM

Lord of Light

02-03-2010, 05:31 PM

Welcome back, LoL.

I think modesty is being aware of your body and having respect for yourself. I think purity is focusing your heart and mind on Christ.

For Christians ... for non-Christians I am not sure what the definitions would be.

Well put. Although modesty is much more than being aware of your body and having respect for oneself. ;) I'm young, but I was taught well. :) Purity is more as well.

And not to be a bombshell, but non-Christians don't actually have much of a definition of modesty or purity nowadays.

Gondorgirl

02-03-2010, 05:34 PM

Wow, take a sojourn, who knows what threads pop up.

And no offense everyone...but this is almost off-topic from Purity and Modesty now...try to get it back on track.

I didn't really have time to read all the 95 pages of the thread...so...can people sort of summarize what they see modesty as? As well as purity?

In my opinion

Modesty can be girls always wearing dresses and covering their heads but it can also be just not wearing revealing clothing or always dressing up just to impress guys.

Purity also can have different standards but the purity I am trying to retain is through not dating because going through many boyfriends/girlfriends just makes it seem less special when you find that one person for you and going out on dates alone with someone will just encourage you to do something you shouldn't. And when I get old enough to have a courtship relationship with someone it will probably start as a friendship to see if I want to spend the rest of my life with someone and will perhaps move on from there.

nice to see you back by the way, I've missed you ;)

Lord of Light

02-03-2010, 05:46 PM

In my opinion

Modesty can be girls always wearing dresses and covering their heads but it can also be just not wearing revealing clothing or always dressing up just to impress guys.

Purity also can have different standards but the purity I am trying to retain is through not dating because going through many boyfriends/girlfriends just makes it seem less special when you find that one person for you and going out on dates alone with someone will just encourage you to do something you shouldn't. And when I get old enough to have a courtship relationship with someone it will probably start as a friendship to see if I want to spend the rest of my life with someone and will perhaps move on from there.

nice to see you back by the way, I've missed you ;)

Okay, if you say girls must wear headcoverings, what of Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:1-16? ;) I'm going to challenge everything you bring up, to make you think, so you better make it good. ;) (Btw, I'm not challenging to say you're wrong. I want you to prove if what you say is right)

I learned what true purity is the hard way, and I pray none of you ever have to. Purity isn't really just something that a person chooses to enact. Being pure is something we are commanded to do, for God Himself is pure, and we are called to be like Him. If we choose not to be pure, how then can we walk into His presence?

Gondorgirl

02-03-2010, 05:51 PM

Okay, if you say girls must wear headcoverings, what of Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:1-16? ;) I'm going to challenge everything you bring up, to make you think, so you better make it good. ;) (Btw, I'm not challenging to say you're wrong. I want you to prove if what you say is right)

I learned what true purity is the hard way, and I pray none of you ever have to. Purity isn't really just something that a person chooses to enact. Being pure is something we are commanded to do, for God Himself is pure, and we are called to be like Him. If we choose not to be pure, how then can we walk into His presence?

I don't say that, I just know people who do ;)

Lord of Light

02-03-2010, 05:55 PM

I don't say that, I just know people who do ;)

Try to get them to post. ;) :)

inkspot

02-03-2010, 05:59 PM

Are you thinking about Christians who are sexually active outside of marriage? But I think there are other areas in which a person can be "impure" -- and I think that if you take my definition of "purity," focusing heart and mind on Christ, then physical impurity won't be that much of a problem ...

Lord of Light

02-03-2010, 06:02 PM

Gondorgirl

02-03-2010, 06:02 PM

Try to get them to post. ;) :)

I believe they have email addresses but I doubt they would join here ;)

Rhyanidd

02-04-2010, 03:48 PM

Very true. For it is by focusing both heart, mind, and soul on Christ, that He makes us pure.

BOTH heart, soul, AND mind? That's three things. lol. Sorry, couldn't resist.

I have to say, I second inskspot's opinion on purity and modesty. Also, modesty isn't really a one straight cut: a girl wearing a v-neck is not less modest than a girl wearing a crew neck...which makes it hard to know, sometimes. That's why it's good to keep friends around who can help, and to examine your motives for choosing an outfit.

Gondorgirl

02-04-2010, 03:51 PM

BOTH heart, soul, AND mind? That's three things. lol. Sorry, couldn't resist.

I have to say, I second inskspot's opinion on purity and modesty. Also, modesty isn't really a one straight cut: a girl wearing a v-neck is not less modest than a girl wearing a crew neck...which makes it hard to know, sometimes. That's why it's good to keep friends around who can help, and to examine your motives for choosing an outfit.

oooh nice one, that is why it's nice to have friends and sisters to help you with your outfits ;)

Rhyanidd

02-04-2010, 03:59 PM

I know, GG, don't tell them, but I love it when my sister's help me in the clothes arena--just, really, don't tell them. Because they will be FAR to happy.:D

Gondorgirl

02-04-2010, 04:02 PM

I know, GG, don't tell them, but I love it when my sister's help me in the clothes arena--just, really, don't tell them. Because they will be FAR to happy.:D

hee hee, I'll keep your secret ;) :D

Lord of Light

02-04-2010, 04:19 PM

oooh nice one, that is why it's nice to have friends and sisters to help you with your outfits ;)

Here's something though...I've known girls who have sisters and friends to help with it, but still don't dress entirely modest. For example, yes, a girl may wear a v-neck, but look at it this way: does it draw attention from guys? Usually, if it does, it is more than likely it could easily draw attention to the girl's figure. It doesn't get much to get a guy thinking wrong thoughts, just the slightest showing of certain areas...he's sunk. I tried to give my ex-girlfriend tips, but usually she ignored them...so girls, please don't ignore when somebody asks you to dress modestly. Make modest apparel a habit.

inkspot

02-04-2010, 04:56 PM

Zella

02-04-2010, 05:08 PM

Lord of Light

02-04-2010, 05:24 PM

Modest is different for everyone, though, and you can't blame girls because guys' hormones are in overdrive. A girl who respects herself will dress the way she's comfortable dressing, and if it shows off her figure, that's fine -- if she's a beauty she should be proud to show it. I think most girls know if something looks "trashy" as opposed to "classy" and a woman can show off her figure and still look classy.

If you tell girls to dress a certain way so boys won't lust after them, you end up with the hijab and veil and a law that says women who aren't completely covered head to foot are tramps. That's just silly. Boys are responsible for their thoughts and behavior the same as girls are, you can't cover her up to make him comfortable.

Well...first off, I did not say girls have to dress a certain way. If anything, the only way I've told them to dress is modestly. And when I say a girl has an outfit that draws attention to her figure, I do not mean that she shouldn't show her beauty. However, what she should do, is not wear clothes that cause men to lust. Here's an example of clothing that draws attention to the figure: shirt's tight, and (pardon this admins, I know its way more than PG, but I don't see how one can illustrate the point without it) its tight across her breasts, drawing attention to her breasts. Or, in some cases, the girl wears a shirt that hikes up every time she bends foward even slightly, revealing whatever may show(depends on whether or not she wears low pants).

I'm a guy, and no offense Inky...but I know what can cause lust. And one thing: do NOT blame us guys. Men and Women alike are both told to dress in apparel that glorifies God. God knows that men have really major overdrives...we're kinda created that way, for ONE woman though. That's why its important for girls to dress modestly, besides the fact that they're commanded to in Scripture.

Oh, and about the being covered "head to toe" in your words Inky...Scripture doesn't say that. Scripture is what I'm drawing my ideas from. If you want to figure out where I'm coming from...I can easily quote what I'm talking about.

Gondorgirl

02-04-2010, 05:47 PM

I'm a guy, and no offense Inky...but I know what can cause lust. And one thing: do NOT blame us guys. Men and Women alike are both told to dress in apparel that glorifies God. God knows that men have really major overdrives...we're kinda created that way, for ONE woman though. That's why its important for girls to dress modestly, besides the fact that they're commanded to in Scripture.

I know this may not be how you meant this, but guys do get some of the blame, obviously you're going to feel attracted to a girl but you can also attempt to control it, immodest clothes are the girl's fault, focusing on them is the guy's fault. (and I'm not talking about you, I know you better than that ;))

Lord of Light

02-04-2010, 06:01 PM

I know this may not be how you meant this, but guys do get some of the blame, obviously you're going to feel attracted to a girl but you can also attempt to control it, immodest clothes are the girl's fault, focusing on them is the guy's fault. (and I'm not talking about you, I know you better than that ;))

I'm glad you got the point I was trying to drive at. Yes, us guys are responsible for controlling our thoughts, while girls are responsible for how they dress, and vice versa. And yes, us guys do get some of the blame, but not as Inky put it to where we were responsible for all.

Gondorgirl

02-04-2010, 06:03 PM

I'm glad you got the point I was trying to drive at. Yes, us guys are responsible for controlling our thoughts, while girls are responsible for how they dress, and vice versa. And yes, us guys do get some of the blame, but not as Inky put it to where we were responsible for all.

Yes, the blame is equally shared half and half ;)

Lord of Light

02-04-2010, 06:09 PM

Yes, the blame is equally shared half and half ;)

Yeah...I know that from a way to personal experience...

inkspot

02-05-2010, 11:07 AM

I don't think there's any blame at all. Boys are what they are, and they respond visually to what they see -- but they also, if they follow Christ, have a responsibility to regard the women in their field of vision as sisters in Christ, whether those women are wearing full eskimo suits or nothing at all. Each one is responsible for his own thoughts and actions. You can't help your body's physical reaction, but you surely can help your thoughts.

The reason I mentioned "covered head to foot" is: if once you shift the responsibility from the boy with the sexy thoughts to the girl for not being "modest enough" then you have started down a particular path that makes the way she dresses the governor of how he responds. Once you do that, then depending on the level of self-control in the guy, you're going to have to continue to cover her up, more and more, until she's no temptation to anyone at all because she's all burka'd up. That's what has happened in radical Islam, and it began with the same rationale you're defending, LoL: her clothes are responsible for my lustful thoughts.

That doesn't work. You can't keep a stray bird from flying over your head, but you certainly can keep him from building a nest in your hair.

A woman should dress in the way she feels is comfortable and modest by her understanding and her walk with Christ. A boy should learn to accept his body's physical reactions to her and govern his own passions. That's all I'm saying.

Lord of Light

02-05-2010, 12:38 PM

The reason I mentioned "covered head to foot" is: if once you shift the responsibility from the boy with the sexy thoughts to the girl for not being "modest enough" then you have started down a particular path that makes the way she dresses the governor of how he responds. Once you do that, then depending on the level of self-control in the guy, you're going to have to continue to cover her up, more and more, until she's no temptation to anyone at all because she's all burka'd up. That's what has happened in radical Islam, and it began with the same rationale you're defending, LoL: her clothes are responsible for my lustful thoughts.

That doesn't work. You can't keep a stray bird from flying over your head, but you certainly can keep him from building a nest in your hair.

A woman should dress in the way she feels is comfortable and modest by her understanding and her walk with Christ. A boy should learn to accept his body's physical reactions to her and govern his own passions. That's all I'm saying.

No offense Inky...but you completely misunderstood what I said. The rationale I'm defending is not: her clothes are responsible for my lustful thoughts. Rather, it is that she dress modestly. It is the girl's responsibility to dress modestly, and as a man of God, I choose to look away when I girl is dressed to where certain areas show. We are commanded to dress modestly, both guys and girls, and we are also told to not cause our brother/sister to stumble. And, just so you know, a girl can dress modern, comfortable, and modestly, with today's clothes. Do all girls do so? No. I do not call for girls to dress head to toe in clothes that cover her entire body. No, that would cause to much uproar, and that is something Paul tells us to avoid, so that we do not offend our brothers/sisters. Rather, Paul states: "Women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control." 1 Timothy 2:9(ESV) Just as I am responisble for how I dress, so women are as well. Do you think that Paul told us this because he didn't like how women dressed? On the contrary, he was a man. He knew that men could easily fall if a woman was not dressed modestly(which he never says is head to toe).

inkspot

02-05-2010, 03:20 PM

Right, I think we're agreeing: a woman should dress modestly. You'll see I've said the same thing in my posts as well. What I was reacting to in the rest of my post was ...
It doesn't get much to get a guy thinking wrong thoughts, just the slightest showing of certain areas...he's sunk. I tried to give my ex-girlfriend tips, but usually she ignored them
However, what she should do, is not wear clothes that cause men to lust.
Umm ... it's possible to lust after a woman in a business suit, so, if you're going to say that she's causing the lust (as you say above), then you are, indeed, saying, "She made me do it. She should change the way she dresses."

If you're going to say, "It doesn't take much to make boys lust" (as you do above) and so the girl should change what she's wearing, then you're basing your judgment about what is modest in a woman's dress on the way it makes you feel. This is the same reasoning that leads to the veil and hijab. She should dress based on what reaction I want her to inspire in me.

What I am saying is: a girl should dress in a way that is comfortable to her and that is modest based on her understanding and her walk with Christ. And a boy should, if he finds her dress to racy, look somewhere else.

shortangel

02-05-2010, 06:35 PM

i've read about this subject in the book every young woman's battle & people have to make their own choices on how they dress & what is considered modest in life, i do agree that the clothes styles in this day & age have gotten too weird :) i mean one year it could be the 80's style and then another year it could be that platform shoes are hot, :)

Lord of Light

02-06-2010, 01:03 AM

What I am saying is: a girl should dress in a way that is comfortable to her and that is modest based on her understanding and her walk with Christ. And a boy should, if he finds her dress to racy, look somewhere else.

Yes, and it is also dependent on the young man's walk with Christ as to whether he will look away. So, let's say he's a young Christian, and weak in faith. There's a girl that dresses to where the v-neck goes down far enough to slighly reveal her breasts. She sits across from the young man to where he can see her breasts, and even though slightly, it causes him to stumble. Yes, his conscience will cause him to feel guilty, but will he have been trained to look away? Is this girl guilty of sin, or not?

Rhyanidd

02-07-2010, 02:53 PM

Yes, and it is also dependent on the young man's walk with Christ as to whether he will look away. So, let's say he's a young Christian, and weak in faith. There's a girl that dresses to where the v-neck goes down far enough to slighly reveal her breasts. She sits across from the young man to where he can see her breasts, and even though slightly, it causes him to stumble. Yes, his conscience will cause him to feel guilty, but will he have been trained to look away? Is this girl guilty of sin, or not?

And what if he isn't a Christain at all? Should I, then, only wear a figure-showing shirt when around very strong Christains? Sorry, but your reasoning still seems, to me, to say girls need to wear crew necks--at least. Yeah, I get it. We need to dress MODESTLY--but WHAT is modest? This is what I meant, when I said that you can be "modest" wearing a v-neck or a crew neck. Because there aren't clear cut lines--the Bible gives us guidelines--but nothing that outright condemns one fashion or another.
Motives are important, not that a guy can't lust after me when my motives are completely pure; but, examining my own motives, and seeking guidence from an older sister/friend or even a brother and praying to God to help me know what is appropriate, keeps me from sinning.
I want to be modest and pure as much as any other. I don't want to be a stumbling block to anyone--you say 'dress modestly' 'don't draw attention to certain areas'--but how? I can't wear a v-neck? Um, sorry, but no. I like my v-necks. I wear undershirts beneath them, usually, none of mine are very low cut.

I want you to know, I am NOT, by any means, attacking you. I am looking for clarification and hopefully not coming on too strong. This subject is a source of great frustration for me. Everyone says 'be modest', like it's the easiest thing in the world. Then, when I say 'this is how I try to guide my views on modesty'; they say I'm wrong, but don't say what is right--they just reiterate 'be modest'. GAH!

Zella

02-07-2010, 03:08 PM

And what if he isn't a Christain at all? Should I, then, only wear a figure-showing shirt when around very strong Christains? Sorry, but your reasoning still seems, to me, to say girls need to wear crew necks--at least. Yeah, I get it. We need to dress MODESTLY--but WHAT is modest? This is what I meant, when I said that you can be "modest" wearing a v-neck or a crew neck. Because there aren't clear cut lines--the Bible gives us guidelines--but nothing that outright condemns one fashion or another.
Motives are important, not that a guy can't lust after me when my motives are completely pure; but, examining my own motives, and seeking guidence from an older sister/friend or even a brother and praying to God to help me know what is appropriate, keeps me from sinning.
I want to be modest and pure as much as any other. I don't want to be a stumbling block to anyone--you say 'dress modestly' 'don't draw attention to certain areas'--but how? I can't wear a v-neck? Um, sorry, but no. I like my v-necks. I wear undershirts beneath them, usually, none of mine are very low cut.

I want you to know, I am NOT, by any means, attacking you. I am looking for clarification and hopefully not coming on too strong. This subject is a source of great frustration for me. Everyone says 'be modest', like it's the easiest thing in the world. Then, when I say 'this is how I try to guide my views on modesty'; they say I'm wrong, but don't say what is right--they just reiterate 'be modest'. GAH!

Here's my definition of modesty: not drawing undue attention to yourself.
I think there are some things that are obviously immodest. Then there are things that can be worn by a modest girl and be fine but be worn by an immodest girl and be inappropriate. Sometimes you have to use your own judgment. And I agree with you that motives count for something; if someone really wants to be immodest they can do it in a high-necked loose dress with a floor-length skirt. Also, your clothes need to be appropriate for the situation. It's how you ACT.

A - Your attitude needs to be modest.
Like I said, if someone is determined to be immodest they can do it no matter what they're wearing.

C - Your clothing needs to be appropriate.
Someone gave me this list of things to think about when choosing clothes:

-Does it honor God?
-(If you live with your parents) Does it honor my parents?
-Does it help my brothers to be pure?
-Does it help me to be pure in thought?
-Does it draw undue attention to me?
-Does it represent good stewardship?
-Does it help me walk with Jesus?

T - Your timing needs to be right.
In other words, your clothes need to fit the situation. For example, pajamas can be modest, but unless you're a little kid, wearing them to church is going to draw undue attention to you.

Lord of Light

02-07-2010, 04:10 PM

And what if he isn't a Christain at all? Should I, then, only wear a figure-showing shirt when around very strong Christains? Sorry, but your reasoning still seems, to me, to say girls need to wear crew necks--at least. Yeah, I get it. We need to dress MODESTLY--but WHAT is modest? This is what I meant, when I said that you can be "modest" wearing a v-neck or a crew neck. Because there aren't clear cut lines--the Bible gives us guidelines--but nothing that outright condemns one fashion or another.
Motives are important, not that a guy can't lust after me when my motives are completely pure; but, examining my own motives, and seeking guidence from an older sister/friend or even a brother and praying to God to help me know what is appropriate, keeps me from sinning.
I want to be modest and pure as much as any other. I don't want to be a stumbling block to anyone--you say 'dress modestly' 'don't draw attention to certain areas'--but how? I can't wear a v-neck? Um, sorry, but no. I like my v-necks. I wear undershirts beneath them, usually, none of mine are very low cut.

I want you to know, I am NOT, by any means, attacking you. I am looking for clarification and hopefully not coming on too strong. This subject is a source of great frustration for me. Everyone says 'be modest', like it's the easiest thing in the world. Then, when I say 'this is how I try to guide my views on modesty'; they say I'm wrong, but don't say what is right--they just reiterate 'be modest'. GAH!

Thanks to Zella, she stole a lot of what I could have said;), but I'm grateful for her input. :)

One thing I'd recommend, is ask your Christian brothers what they consider immodest. (Caution though: don't ask all Christian guys this) Usually, stick to those who are actually like a real life brother to you(not necessarily blood kin) but if you do have a blood kin brother, and he's Christian, he'd be a great source of input. One thing though: their spiritual maturity and their knowledge of Scripture is key for the entire thing.

Benisse

02-07-2010, 05:56 PM

Here's my definition of modesty: not drawing undue attention to yourself...
A - Your attitude needs to be modest.
Like I said, if someone is determined to be immodest they can do it no matter what they're wearing.

C - Your clothing needs to be appropriate.
Someone gave me this list of things to think about when choosing clothes:

-Does it honor God?
-(If you live with your parents) Does it honor my parents?
-Does it help my brothers to be pure?
-Does it help me to be pure in thought?
-Does it draw undue attention to me?
-Does it represent good stewardship?
-Does it help me walk with Jesus?

T - Your timing needs to be right.
In other words, your clothes need to fit the situation. For example, pajamas can be modest, but unless you're a little kid, wearing them to church is going to draw undue attention to you.

I like your ACT acronym, Zella; thanks for sharing. I think I'll pass it along to my daughter and her youth director too!

Copperfox

02-08-2010, 10:24 AM

I saw a good Christian movie in which a very good line was spoken: "A woman could be dressed in concrete blocks, and selfish men would _still_ manage to lust after her." That's why I keep saying what I say--and I keep on being _right_ about it: that the obsession with piling "enough" cloth on women is not just useless, it is literally _worse_ than useless, because it creates a _delusion_ of solving the lust problem when it really does _nothing_ to solve it. Either men want to do right, or they want to do wrong; they _already_ have their heart motivation _before_ they see anything stimulating. If a man is wicked and selfish, he doesn't just _become_ that way because he discovers that women have knees; he already IS that way. If he wants to do evil, he perfectly well knows what is there to be had, whether it is shown to him or not; and he is just as capable of trying to take it by force, whether it is shown to him or not. That's why women _still_ get assaulted even in prudish societies.

I urge anyone who has not seen it, to look a short ways back in the Sonnets thread and see the poem I wrote for Unforgotten_Memories. I have seen photos of her when she was not dressed like a nun, and I enjoyed the sight of her, and yet, marvel of marvels, I _didn't_ thereby wish to do anything dishonorable!!!!!

inkspot

02-08-2010, 12:40 PM

Right, I agree with CF.
And LoL, in your scenario, no, of course the woman is not guilty of sin. She's just dressing the way she dresses. But the question shouldn't be who is guilty of sin. It should be: are you dressing in a way that shows respect for yourself and that fits the definition of modesty you believe Christ leads you to? You can't shift the young mans responsibility for his own thoughts onto the way the girl dresses, for just the reason CF gives above ... teenaged boys have a lot of hormones, and so clothes aren't really a barrier to their thoughts.

Zella

02-08-2010, 01:21 PM

You can't shift the young mans responsibility for his own thoughts onto the way the girl dresses, for just the reason CF gives above ... teenaged boys have a lot of hormones, and so clothes aren't really a barrier to their thoughts.

That's true, but girls still shouldn't dress in a way that invites lust.

Lord of Light

02-08-2010, 02:07 PM

That's true, but girls still shouldn't dress in a way that invites lust.

Thank you Zella, that's exactly what I have been saying.

inkspot

02-09-2010, 10:57 AM

But did you read what either CF or I said? A boy can lust after a girl who is totally encased in concrete if he's the kind of boy who indulges in lust.

I agree that a girl should dress in the way she feels is modest according to her understanding and her walk with Christ, a way that's respectful to herself and to Christ her Master.

But to say, "Still she shouldn't dress in a way that invites lust!" is to make a subjective statement that can't really mean anything, because she isn't inspiring the lust -- the lust comes from outside her. If you want her to dress in a way that can never inspire anyone to lust, then she just has to stay home in the dark, because if a man is determined to indulge lustful thoughts, he will do it no matter how covered up the woman is.

Think about the gay Hawaiians before the missionaries arrived. They were perplexed why the missionaries wanted to cover up the women! Everyone there was used to women going around topless. Or think about the crazy Norwegians who all sauna naked together with the grandparents and the neighbors. They probably would not get why we would think it would be the woman's job to get herself properly covered before jumping in.

The lustful thoughts originate in the mind of the person who indulges them. The clothing of the object is incidental. Her responsibility is to dress in a way that is respectful to herself and that she feels is modest according to her walk with Christ. That's her responsbility. The boy's responsibility is to lean on Jesus for self-control and to direct his thoughts Christ-ward, yes?

Copperfox

02-14-2010, 12:04 PM

Thank you for the support, Inkspot.

This is a good time for me to repeat something. In the nearly thirty years I have experienced as a married man, I never had any adulterous affairs; but there were, I think, four times when I experienced _major_ temptation and narrowly escaped disaster. What needs to be said, what cannot be stressed too strongly, is the fact that _none_ of these temptations had even the _slightest_ connection with how the women involved were dressed. Every one of them, at all times during the temptation experiences, was _always_ clothed in a modest manner. The fact of my being tempted to feel evil desires was _entirely_ based on their _behavior_ toward me--on their _acting_ as if they felt something for me.

You could put Rachel Weisz, Naomi Watts, Beyonce, Natalie Portman, Emily Browning, and a dozen other beauties like them in front of me, BUFF NAKED....BUT ACTING INDIFFERENT TO ME....and sure, I would take a look, but my inward emotions would scarcely be touched, because nothing was being _offered_ to me. By contrast, take any average woman out of a crowd, and make her dress like a nun....and she would be able to cause _more_ arousal in me than the mere sight of all those glamorous women could, if she _behaved_ as if she were interested in me individually.

Rhyanidd

02-14-2010, 04:18 PM

Copperfox

02-14-2010, 08:04 PM

William Shakespeare has something to contribute!

In Shakespeare's play Measure For Measure, the wicked Lord Angelo has the brother of heroine Isabella in his power, planning to put him to death. When Isabella comes to him to plead for her brother's life, she NEITHER is dressed revealingly NOR behaves flirtatiously; but Angelo begins lusting after her entirely by HIS OWN fault, and even admits this to himself in a monologue.

Nightcrawler_Fan

02-14-2010, 08:08 PM

I think that to be modest you must be comfortable with yourself. If you don't feel comfortable wearing something then that's probably the Holy Spirit telling you that you shouldn't wear it. Your conscious is an amazing thing and a lot of the time if you let it guide you you'll stay modest.

Also, if a guy goes around looking for a girl who isn't dressed modestly then he most definitely is not being pure or modest. Girls aren't the only one's who have to maintain modesty.

That's my opinion on the matter.

Copperfox

02-15-2010, 08:59 AM

If I were starting over now as a 22-year-old bachelor, yet still had all my knowledge, I would not say to myself, "I will choose the girl who exposes the most of her body." But neither would I feel, or pretend to feel, horrified if a girl felt herself free to go around in shorts and a halter top. As I have already made clear, there are other considerations of conduct compared to which the sight of some skin becomes absolutely insignificant. No amount of attractiveness would hold my attention if the girl did not have suitable inner qualities. If she DID have good inner qualities, I would enjoy the sight of however much of her was visible, and this WOULD NOT in itself automatically equal the sinful stare of lust. Then if she decided to switch to Jane Austen-style floor-length dresses, with high necks to boot, that would be okay too.

inkspot

02-15-2010, 11:30 AM

I agree with Inkspot and Copperfox, on this. But, they are saying it far better than I.

As to asking my brothers--they are not at home, anymore. They live far, far away. Also, they are completely useless in terms of clothing.
Nice to see you here, Ryhanidd! :) Brothers may be useless for fashion sense, but I imagine they can tell if an outfit looks trashy to them or not.

Right, CF's input from Shakespeare is good and illustrates, once again, that the person with the lustful thoughts can or will have them if he's bound to, whatever a woman is wearing. The important thing, I think, for a young woman, is to dress in a way that seems modest and respectful to her -- and if she is a Christian, in a way that seems respectful to her Savior.

In a way it's like being married -- as a married woman, I consider what seems respectful to my husband, you know, in terms of clothing. I know he wouldn't want his wife looking trashy or as if she were trying to attract male attention. So it's the same, if you're a Christian, regarding Jesus -- He wouldn't want you to wear something that objectifies you, because He loves you and wants the best for you.

Rhyanidd

02-15-2010, 03:13 PM

Nice to see you here, Ryhanidd! :) Brothers may be useless for fashion sense, but I imagine they can tell if an outfit looks trashy to them or not.
:D I'm useless in the fashion arena, as well. I was actually referring to the fact that they won't answer me when I ask for their input on the modesty of an outfit. They just say "I dunno. But, if some dude gives you trouble just tell him that we'll come for him." (This is illustrated with a right fist to the left palm.). When I protest and say "But I don't want to look trashy!" They just give me weird looks and tell me that they don't know what looks trashy. Then I am told to talk to Mom or one of my sisters. I've tried. They're good brothers, but they fail in at helping with my clothing, in any sense.

inkspot

02-15-2010, 05:18 PM

LOL! That's funny. I guess they really are useless!
:)

Benisse

02-16-2010, 11:34 AM

I don't know if this'll help, but one thing my parents did was all the kids when they turned 13 got to go out to dinner with just Mom and Dad. And all the girls got promise rings (aka Purity Rings) Basically we promise to remain pure, physically and emotionally, until we are ready for marriage, On my 2nd brothers 16th birthday they gave him a Promise Ring, and now they are gonna give my other brother one too, because they decided that that was something they should've done for the guys too.

p.s. By staying pure emotionally it means they don't want us to be dating until we are sure we're ready, (we're not allowed to date till we're 18, but the Ring is also to insure that when we do start dating that we'll be careful, and not just go out with the first guy who asks...) and they mean look at guys as brothers, not as potentiol boyfriends.

I was catching up on this thread and appreciate your sharing here. Our homeschool group did a True Love Waits family ceremony back when my son was a preteen, but my daughter was too young. I think following your family's example would be a good idea since my daughter is a teenager now...

As for the issue of dressing modestly, I understand that visual stimulation can be a challenge for some guys. So in general as a family we are not big on TV and are careful about which movies we go to, and often my husband and I preview films first. For example after we saw Avatar, we had some concerns about the non-dress of the Nav'ii; so even though it is a brilliant movie, we did not make a big deal about it to our teenage son/daughter. Since they did not express a burning desire to see it, we did not offer to take them...

I was pretty clueless about how guys react to certain kinds of dress, and in fact I let my mom do most of my clothes buying as a teen and collegiate; what I wore really was not that important to me. My mom, however, who had been a model to earn money in college, was really in to Fashion, and she enjoyed shopping and had herself a staggering collection of false eyelashes, hairpieces, shoes and purses. (Quite a difference from how she is now, though she is still a beautiful woman.)

But I learned that I had to be more thoughtful about what I was wearing when I was just starting seminary-- and one of the professors took me aside privately and told me that some of my fellow students had mentioned that what I was wearing was a 'stumbling block' to them. I was really surprised and quite a bit embarrassed, and I began to think about what I was wearing from that day on. And I started choosing my own clothes with others in mind...

I know that lust is in the eye of the beholder... but on the other hand, I don't need to wave a red flag in the way I dress.