The Holocaust: Your thoughts, feelings, etc.

[Per Sempre]

I always give my threads descriptive titles. I would like to know your thoughts and feelings about this period in history. I really couldn't believe it when I saw that there wasn't a thread about this! There is now,so share your stuff.

[EveningStar]

We are all born and we all die. That is the way of things. That some die in bed surrounded by love and others die screaming on barbed wire fences or gut shot on some lonely battlefield is horrible, but always God surrounds his saints with that special grace at the end, that power of the Holy Spirit that gives them the strength to endure the dark valley. At the end of that valley is God's light and love.

We can debate Theodicy all day, speculating how God can be good and yet bad things happen to good people. But know this. God loves you and he will use whatever circumstances come along to salvage some good from the situation if you hang on and do his will.

From the horrors of the Shoah came an international resolve that such pogroms are unacceptable, barbaric, and never needful. Though there have been some similar efforts in recent history...such as the gassing of the Kurds in Iraq and the "ethnic cleansing" in Yugoslavia, by and large we as a human race have come to our senses and no longer sanction such acts as a state's "internal affairs." We bring the resolve of our international might down on each country and hold it accountable for abuses of human rights.

The system is not perfect, but it is a reflection of man's quest to be more like God. It is the light of hope, and we should all play our roles in building that hope from a candle into a mighty beacon.

John B.

[Jood]

Holocaust. I really enjoy talking about this. You see, I did a research paper about Corrie Ten Boom, who saved a lot of Jews during the Holocaust. She was a resident of Holland. So I did a lot of research on the subject, and found some amazing things.
If you want to read my paper, just lemme know.

[Tweetsie]

Holocaust. I really enjoy talking about this. You see, I did a research paper about Corrie Ten Boom, who saved a lot of Jews during the Holocaust. She was a resident of Holland. So I did a lot of research on the subject, and found some amazing things.
If you want to read my paper, just lemme know.

I'd be very interested in reading it. I loved learning about the Ten Booms. They were really an amazing family. :)

[inkspot]

The Bible says that God will never put more on us than we can handle. Did we handle it well? Did God steer us along through or did men do the bidding?
I don't think the Bible says we will never be given burdens more than we can bear. Even Jesus had to have help carrying the cross.

[QueenSusanofNarnia]

The Holocoust was awful. I remember going to the Holocaust museum.. it was dreadful .

[Of Mice and Narnia]

Was it not Jeremiah that said, "the heart is deceitful above all things and desparately wicked, who can know it"? Men have been doing inhumane things to men for centuries. And depending upon your perspective and family relationship, some are worse than others.

Having family that survived the death camps, family that carted their own mother and father from the showers, it was sickening to listen too. But was it surprising that men would treat other men as such? No. It is the unregenerated heart. It is capable of the most despicable acts. So where was God?

Right where he has always been. The holocaust wasn't God's fault, it was mans. Man decided a long time ago that he could get along fine without God. What we have is the result of that decision, "man left to himself". Everyone going about doing what was right in their own eyes. Isn't it strange that men can totally disregard from their lives and yet expect him to fix all the bad in the world.

As believers, what we do to help the poor, the downcast, the abused is all temporary. There is no permanent solution to the social problems in this world unless the heart of every man is changed. Only God can do that through Jesus. There is a permanent solution to the sin problem though. A solution for today and forever. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". Delivered from the penalty of death, rescued from the dominion of sin.

Who else but Jesus could change a man so that now he can love his enemies and do good to those that despitefully use him? He's some Savior....

[SOS~]

The Holocoust was awful. I remember going to the Holocaust museum.. it was dreadful .


In D.C.?I went there.We just went to the children's part because the like 13 and up part was to scary for some kids in our class.

[EveningStar]

You refer to a passage from 2nd Corinthians that people won't face trials greater than they can resist. These are temptations. That's why they have an avenue of escape. People can't force you to sin...guaranteed.

Dying, now, and even dying horribly, that's not on the table. It happened to Jesus. It happened to all the disciples. In fact Peter chose to be crucified upside down so that he woudln't be perceived as being as great and noble as Jesus. Could they stand this? Well, no. It killed them. But they died without sin, which is what the original bargain was, and they went on to eternal life. So yes, God provided for those that die, but certainly preventing the holocaust or preventing the first century persecution of the Christians was not in God's plan.

Life in this world is uncertain. We can pray and prayer does have an effect, though not always the one we're looking for. We can't, by being godly enough and diligent enough in our prayers, prevent people from dying.

[Tweetsie]

Odd... but I'd like to go to the holocaust museum actually- no matter how horrible it is. But last time I asked, my parents said we'd have to get tickets ahead. So next spring break probably. And I won't go in the children's section. I just can't, because it is my family's history, so I have to know about it, and not just about David's Story. We read about David in class.

A question: Is this thread for the over all holocaust, or just what the first post was about?

[Queen Swanwhite]

The Holocaust was a terrible time in history. I think we should be very thankful that we weren't in it. It was a terrible time and just the other day, well, two weeks ago in History, we had to watch Schindler's List. It really made me think about the pain and suffering people had to go through in Germany, Poland etc. It scares me to think about it, and I think that Hitler was a very evil man. Everything to do with human experiments etc. was hideous (sp) and I feel for the people who had to live during those times.

For me the Holocaust is a very touchy subject, but at the same time quite interesting to look into. Learning about Germany in the 40's is very interesting, and I think we would all benfit from looking into it. :)

EDIT: I have read about the Ten Boom family, very good. I also think that God doesn't give us burdens that we can't bear. Christianity is not easy, but God would never give you a burden to heavy for us to bear.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

The thing to keep in mind about the Holocaust was that Hitler and the Nazis thought it a perfectly reasonable thing to do - in fact, they thought they were doing the world a favor! Nazi thinking was strongly influenced by the teachings of Friedrich Neitzche and the writings of a Helena Blavatsky, who founded a religious movement known as Theosophy. Part of Theosophy was a strange set of teachings regarding "racial progression" (for lack of a better term), which was part of her teaching about spiritual evolution. Essentially, Theosophy taught that various human races ascended at various stages in history - each had their "day in the sun", so to speak. According to this mythology, the black races had long ago passed from the center stage of history, and the slavic and Jewish races were just wrapping up their time. The period of history that the human race was entering "belonged" to the Nordic races.

Thus, by the thinking of the Nazis, the "outmoded" races were best exterminated to make room for the ascendent race. They thought they were eliminating the pollution from the human stock.

Incidentally, though we all know that Hitler hated Jews and Judaism, he also hated Christianity. This was one reason he was so brutal to the Poles - they were both slavs and devout Christians.

[Miss Freckles]

Holocaust and fascism in Germany still is very terrible for us. Of course we have to learn a lot about it as it is our history, but it still has consequences.

For example for the longest time we could not really be proud of our country etc. And now World Cup kinda brings us together and you see flags everywhere and stuff, but there's also stupid discussions about our national anthem being nazi influenced which really is not true!

okay not really to the subject but well...

I think it's very hard to say something about Holocaust, because the few jews that survived write about it and it's all stories with happy end because they survived of course. But the reality is that almost everybody else died, so you don't really know...

and it changed the belief of many jews. after the sho'ah some can only believe in a loving God who doesn't interfere any more.

[she-elfwarrior19]

I feel the holocost was an inhumane horrible hell on earth for Jewish people. Its a shame to think human beings can be so cruel to one another. All this happened because of a mans madness, just because he hated the Jewish people and wanted a "Perfect" country without them.
Hitler was a mad and horrible person i dont know how to explain what i want to say on what a evil and cruel person he was..him and the nazis.I think they are some of the worst and horrible, cruel people ive ever heard of.
They treated people so horrible..you wonder how someone could even do that?
This world is filled of sin and evil, evil people,evil deeds done to one another.
Im so thankful Jesus came and washed our sins away by dieing on the cross for us. He is the light of the world and the world needs to see that.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Another thing to keep in mind - there was another dominant philosophy that sprang out of the 19th century and bore terrible fruit in the 20th: communism. The savage bloodshed of the communists actually outpaced that of the facists (as if you wanted to have that kind of contest).

Though the conventional wisdom holds that facism and communism were political "opposites" - facism being "far right" and communism being "far left" - that is far too simplistic a way to look at it. Both can be traced back to the teachings of a man named Ludwig Feuerbach (http://www.epistemelinks.com/Main/Philosophers.aspx?PhilCode=Feue), whose fierce atheism influenced both Frederich Neitzche (and thus the facists) and Karl Marx (the communists). The political differences between the two movements were trivial; what is important is that they were both anthropocentric (i.e. man-centered) utopian philosophies. They both envisioned a perfect society here on earth that deliberately excluded God. The strain of facism that the Nazis bought into was based on racial superiority; the communist vision was on the elevation of a particular economic class, but otherwise they were the same.

So if you're told in school that facism and communism were "opposites", don't believe them. They differed in only the smallest things. They had the same roots, and bore the same poisonous fruit.

[she-elfwarrior19]

Elie Wiesel wrote his story of what is was like being in the Aushwutz whichmust have been very scary, and a hell on earth, im going to be reading it soon. My mom is reading it now.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Try reading Alexander Solzhenitsyn's A Day In The Life of Ivan Denisovich for a picture of life in the Soviet Gulag. Horrible.

[Ephinie]

A very good book to read would be The Book Thief, by Markus Zusak. It is set in a small community on the fringes of Munich during WWII. It exams things that were happening in Germany from the perspective of a young, very poor, German girl... The reason that it is such a good book to read is that you grow attatched to the characters and come to love them. Like in any story, you identify with them... you see their flaws and their redeeming qualities. You see how they are really, at their core, ordinary and good people.

But then, you have to realize that these are the same people who allowed the holocaust to happen. These are the same people who stood by and did nothing as they saw groups of Jews marched through town toward a concentration camp and certain death. They are the same people who followd Nazi idealism and joined the party because it was easier and more convenient for them to just go along with it all than take a stand against it. In fact, after a while, many of them even began to believe that Jews really did threaten their businesses and livelihoods; so they kept quiet because it benefited them, even though they morally disagreed with the treatment of the Jews.

It's very enlightening. I haven't seen very many fictional stories that show things from the Germans' perspective. This one does an excellent job.

[Tweetsie]

My teacher always said this to us when we were learning about this. "The only way for evil to suceed is for good men to do nothing." or something like that. I know for a fact it's a quote (and I may have been missing a few smaller words), but it's very correct, actually.

[PeterC]

There are actually people who are calling this a hoax...You know that? :mad:

[Ephinie]

There are actually people who are calling this a hoax...You know that? :mad:You mean people who are claiming that the Holocaust was a hoax, even now-a-days? I know that there have been conspiracy theories about it all being a hoax, but was unaware that people still gave those credit.

[Tweetsie]

Those people are called holocaust deniers. But then I dare ask, where do you think the 6 million + Jewish people went then?

[EveningStar]

Interesting point about Feuerbach, however it is wrong to think of the Nazi movement as some sort of attempt to find Nirvana by excluding God.

Oh BELIEVE me there was a spiritualism in the Third Reich. The topic is one of my favorite areas of emphasis in studying World War II.

Suggested things for you to look up: Alfred Rosenberg, the Ice World theory, the Thule Society, Wewelsburg Castle. And these are not the ideas of dissident revisionists calling for a radical rewrite of history. This is mainstream history. I don't plan to go into detail here ... if anyone is interested I will answer PMs.

The short answer is, however, that the Third Reich was so chock full of oddities and ancient pagan beliefs that Feuerbach wouldn't recognize it as an offshoot of his philosophy. They turned their back on the Christian God, but their belief in a higher purpose, characterized by the "church of the blood", is cryptically referred to on Rudolf Hess' tombstone. "It was worth the risk."

John B.

[inkspot]

Did anyone read "Maus" by Art Spiegelman, a graphic novel of the Holocaust? The Jews in the comic-book style story are mice, and the Nazis are cats. I don't recommend it because reading anything about Nazis gives me nightmares, but if you are interested in the topic, the two graphic novels which make up Maus are top notch. I know you think it sounds silly when you read about it here, but when you look at the books, it is amazing how chilling it all is, even in comic book form ...

[Swimfan1918]

The Holocoust was awful. I remember going to the Holocaust museum.. it was dreadful .

I just recently went there in May on my class trip. I remember our leader/teacher told us right before we went inside that "if you dont cry or if you laugh there is something seriously wrong with you." One of the 1st parts of the museum you walk out of a tightly packed elevator (to remind you of how ppl were packed in cattle cars) there are clothes and they had the blue and white striped uniforms from Auschwitz and at the moment i saw them i started crying, i couldn't bear to know that someone some body was wearing it. Then later they have an actual sign from Auschwitz the one that says "Arbeit macht Frei" to lead you into the Auschwitz section of the museum and they had a cattle car and beds from the barracks. You weren't allowed to touch them but i noticed that after i left.

Im kind of happy theres a thread about this. Theres this quote i hear all the time:"Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it." i mean its hard personally for me to talk about this because my family and pretty much every person in my community has gone through it or is affected by it some how. Theres actually this man i kno hes a family friend or hes related ot me im not sure but he is an Auschwitz survivor and i remember it was the opening of my aunts russian store and he came and i was wearing my star of david necklace and i was packing bags not looking very happy but i was and he said, Smile, a smile shows someone that your happy. and then he saw my necklace and then he started smiling and then i started smiling to show him that i was happy and that i was proud of who i was even though we've been through so much. I see him all the time and whenever he sees me not smiling he says that quote to me. :)

[she-elfwarrior19]

It would be interesting to go to the Holocaust museum,to see what they have. I dont know if i'd be able to handle it though.

[lifeandart]

The holocaust museums are very hard to get through. I've been to the one in DC and the one at the Imperial War Museum in London.

I've also reciently been to Auschwitz I and II.

They all stop your heart. At Auschwitz II there is a memorial to all those who died which lies upon a brick floor, the floor stretches out very far, has steps and multiple levels. At the end of our stay at Auschwitz we were informed that there is a brick there for every person (every recorded person) who died in the concentration camps. That was one of the hardest things to deal with at the camps, seeing those bricks, seeing the actual numbers.

[Jood]

There are actually people who are calling this a hoax...You know that? :mad:
Actually, I'd like to explain a little better what you mean.
There was a man (don't remember his name), he was claiming the following:
That there was no order directly from Hitler to exterminate Jews.
That there was no one mind to destroy all Jews.
That the gassing chambers in Aushwitz, weren't actually gassing chambers.
This British man, was relying on an American from (I think) Boston. This scientist from Boston did incorrect testing on the gassing chambers in Aushwitz, and came forth with a report of no traces of fatal gasses.
Nasty isn't it?

[she-elfwarrior19]

I dont believe it was a hoax, and i never will, it did happen, this horrible cruelty did indeed happen.
I just finished the great book by Elie Weisel, called Night and his experience as a teen boy when he was with his father in the Hell on earth Aushwitz. The things jewish people went through, what they saw was just horrible the inhumane things Nazis did to them, treating them worse than animals, no person no matter what they believe, or look like ect. should have been treated like that, no one at all.

[Jood]

I agree with elf warrior. An awful happening, that some youngsters in our society are unaware of.

[Mrs Gil-Galad Took]

In our hotel, there is an old lady called Mrs Skorkovski. She is a survivor of Auschwitz. She had suffered from a very aweful and horrible time there. She was polish but born in Germany, and since the holocaust and Auschwitz of course, she hates germans and the german language. She is very aware the next generation are not the ones who were doing this during WWII, but she just can't hear the german language anymore. She moved to holland and has done everything to get rid off her german accent which she succeeded tremendously.
I hate it when people say the holocaust didn't happen. Then the diary of Anne Frank was fake?! No way! My granddad was in the dutch/english underground who were fighting against the nazis during the war.
Yes, I've heard a lot about Corrie Ten Boom. Dr Schüller (hour of power) talked a lot about her and she is dutch! We dutchies should even be more proud at her for all she did, but people don't even mention her name.

[PeterC]

...Anyone here read Night?

[Swimfan1918]

yup ive read Night and many other holocaust stories.

[she-elfwarrior19]

I finished reading Night not to long ago, a very moving and powerful book.

[Swimfan1918]

i was bored so i read Night again for like the 5th time last night i cried.

[Pollywannabe]

i went to the Holocaust Museum in D.C. and it was soooooo sad to see all of the things they went through! and i went to every part of it too so it was especially depressing! :( and to think none of those people ever did anything to Hitler.

[Nikia]

Did anyone read "Maus" by Art Spiegelman, a graphic novel of the Holocaust? The Jews in the comic-book style story are mice, and the Nazis are cats. I don't recommend it because reading anything about Nazis gives me nightmares, but if you are interested in the topic, the two graphic novels which make up Maus are top notch. I know you think it sounds silly when you read about it here, but when you look at the books, it is amazing how chilling it all is, even in comic book form ...
I only read the second story to Maus, I was never able to find the first half. I believe the whole tale is his father's story through the Holocaust.
That there was no order directly from Hitler to exterminate Jews.
That there was no one mind to destroy all Jews.
That the gassing chambers in Aushwitz, weren't actually gassing chambers.
This British man, was relying on an American from (I think) Boston. This scientist from Boston did incorrect testing on the gassing chambers in Aushwitz, and came forth with a report of no traces of fatal gasses.
Nasty isn't it?
I watched that British man's trial about denying the Holocaust in my history class a few years ago. Other Holocaust denier say Jews were killed, but no more than would be usual in wartime and the survivors have lied about how they were treated.
I read Schindler's List and feel that it does more justice than Spielberg's movie. The movie is excellent, but reading the book paints a bigger picture of the horrors from survivors points of view as well as Schindler's.

But here's something not everyone knows, Hitler didn't start the anti-Jewish movement in Germany. The Germans were so disillusioned with the Republic that had been set up in Germany after World War I, they were willing to follow anyone who promised to bring them back to the days of Kaiser Wilhelm. So Hitler used their hate for the Weimar Republic and a hate most Germans had toward the Jews that spanned centuries and he used it as a platform. Another thing is Jewish people were not terribly popular anywhere. Not that they were hated around the world, but in many places no one really cared. After the war, when everyone saw what happened that's when it was decided to make Israel a home for the Jews. It's rather sad that's what it took for them to be more noticed in this world.

I think people forget other groups of people suffered during the Holocaust too. It was mostly Jews, but gypsies, disabled/handicapped, and homosexuals were equally as tortured by the Third Reich. Not to mention Stalin (our ally for a bit) was killing Jews in Russia like mad. Stalin killed far more people than Hitler did, but since the Russians came over to our side it tends to get brushed over unless you study the war indepth.

World War II was a very dark hour and it wasn't just because of the Holocaust. Jews, gypsies, handicapped, and homosexual people were being killed in mass numbers in Italy, Germany, Russia, Austria, and pretty much across Europe. The Japanese held their Bataan Death March and they were killing many innocent Chinese people. America was throwing Japanese (Japanese Americans and other Asians) into camps in the American West simply for being Asian. Russia was losing men left and right, to war and to Stalin. And most of this was tipped off because people thought Hitler had the right idea when he came to power. It just goes to show one man can have an immense effect on the world.

[Per Sempre]

Did anyone read "Maus" by Art Spiegelman, a graphic novel of the Holocaust? The Jews in the comic-book style story are mice, and the Nazis are cats. I don't recommend it because reading anything about Nazis gives me nightmares, but if you are interested in the topic, the two graphic novels which make up Maus are top notch. I know you think it sounds silly when you read about it here, but when you look at the books, it is amazing how chilling it all is, even in comic book form ...Yes Inkspot,I too have nightmares about Hitler and the "Final Solution"...but it's kind of strange because other things that happened in the past that were extremely like the Haulocaust don't really bother me. Like the French Reveloution,they hated a certain group of people and they tortured them like Hitler tortured the Jews. History repeats itself.

[she-elfwarrior19]

Something that seemed to be pushed under the rug was the Armenian Genocide. Marsha Forchuk Skrypuch wrote a novel telling about it.
I didnt get nightmares from reading Night but its just such a nightmare to think of how people were treated!

[Tweetsie]

There were lots of genocides in the world- but this was the only one that got anywhere near my family. My grandmother survived the holocaust. But lots of others didn't.

[lions mane]

which is always professional, it was one of the, if not the saddest times in the history of life. and history is my major! and this one time I saw oprah with my mom and this survivor from the Holocaust was on and they were over in germany i believe at the sites of the brutal murders and al and i just had the chills the entire show. they showed all the suit cases from the people who thought they were going somewhere but were just going to be killed, and they had this huge room full of hair from the prisoners. it was just really sad, and that's why i say its the saddest time in the history of life.

[♣Teh Deviant♣]

which is always professional, it was one of the, if not the saddest times in the history of life. and history is my major! and this one time I saw oprah with my mom and this survivor from the Holocaust was on and they were over in germany i believe at the sites of the brutal murders and al and i just had the chills the entire show. they showed all the suit cases from the people who thought they were going somewhere but were just going to be killed, and they had this huge room full of hair from the prisoners. it was just really sad, and that's why i say its the saddest time in the history of life.

And the shoes.

I have [and I think we all owe] a great respect towards the Holocaust survivors, their family, and the people who were brutally lost in the Holocaust.

[lions mane]

And the shoes.

I have [and I think we all owe] a great respect towards the Holocaust survivors, their family, and the people who were brutally lost in the Holocaust.
you seen that oprah too? yeah i have to admitt that i was a little choked up when i seen all those shoes from the babys and all..........

and i have a great deal of respect and sympathy for them.

[she-elfwarrior19]

I saw that too!!!!!!!:eek: It was very sad and interesting

[HarryPevensiePotterGirl!!]

Last year I had to do an honors report about the Holocaust and while I was doing research I was surprised to see how many people still deny it. There's people who believe it was a scam set-up by the Jews to give them sympathy. People believe some crazy stuff. There is some site out there that claims to be Christian, but it all about denying the Holocaust. I talked to the man in charge of the site a few times as part of my research, and he is certifiably nuts.

[EveningStar]

The important thing to remember about The Holocaust is that it's not the death of a group of six million Jews but six million times that one Jew died.

Everyone dies eventually. God handles deaths one by one, just as he judges people one by one, not by their political affiliation or the gang they ran around with but their individual acts of good and evil.

While the sheer size of the Holocaust is overwhelming, in determining whether God was "at the helm" doing His job when six million died in concentration camps is a very human way of looking at it. God has six million different ways of looking at how people died in the Holocaust...one for each victim. Not one large file set under "H" for Holocaust.

Rest assured that each of those six million Jews received God's individual, customized attention and that nobody slipped through the cracks or got lost in the shuffle. God cares for you as an individual whether you die in a car crash, a plane crash, or with two thousand other people in the twin towers.

[she-elfwarrior19]

Well said, well said:D:D

[Adanedhel]

I went to see Dachu, a concentration camp in Germany this summer. What an incredible experience. One that was both sad and hopeful at the same time. Here I was in this horrible place while surrounding me were friendly new generation German Teens my own age.

[General Oreius]

Any genocide against any group of people (The Jews, gypsies, Armenians, Kurds, Sudanians) is a sad and terrible event, but the Holocaust is one of the darkest points in history and the saddest for me. I am part German, Polish, and Czechoslovokian, so I am not proud of what Hitler led the Germans to do, but I can't hate them for it. The Germans were a suffering people who were led to believe that the Jews were the cause for their suffering only because God had blessed the Jews and they were living a better life than many. Of course the true reason for their prosperity was not revealed so Satan, through Hitler, could send them to their near extermination from the face of the earth.

And I am not forgetting the others who were killed such as the gypsies, but the fact that any one race of people were hated enough to almost be made extinct just to fulfill the dream of one man, and most likely others, is to horrible to let me forget about it. We can't forget so it won't happen again. That's one reason why we need to watch Iran very closely. If their president is bold enough to say that the Holocaust didn't happen, then who knows what he's willing to do with nuclear weapons against Israel. I know God will not take away his protection from Israel. He protected many of them throughout the Holocaust and gave their homeland back to them, but the hate for Israel and the Jews is growing, I'm afraid, at a dangerous rate.

Even if it seems harmless, there are sayings that I hear at school that make me want to puke because of how they're used. Nothing overly racial, I think, but a person who is thought of as dumb or is just not liked is often called "a Jew" or "Jewish."

[EveningStar]

The so-called tests that did not detect the presence of poisonous gasses in the gas chambers....I can answer that easily and handily.

The gas used was Zyclon B (a pun on the word Cyclone <Zyclon> and the two active ingredients Cyanide and Chlorine). It was a commonly used insecticide and rodenticide used for killing everything in a confined place, much the way Vicane is used to "tent" houses in Florida to kill all the insect pests in the walls.

Zyclon B was put into cotton balls that were stuffed into a can. The gas itself only emerged as a gas when the can was opened and oxygen could reach the active ingredients.

It was asserted at one time that Prussian Blue would form in large amounts when the gas interacted with the bricks of the inside of the chamber. This has since been proven not to be the case. Other tests, better at determining contamination, show that the gas was used heavily in those rooms identified as gas chambers, but NOT AT ALL in living quarters where lice and rodents were an actual problem.

The rooms used for gassing were named on the outside "Shower Houses" and people had to strip before going inside. Then they were showered briefly with hot water that would increase the absorption rate of the gas when administered. Matter of factly, for purposes of crowd control, the condemned were not told they were being herded into that room to die. For obvious reasons.

I C Farben that made Zyklon B was broken back into the small companies that made it up before the merger in the 1920s took place. One of them is Bayer, that caught a lot of grief because it started making a pesticide for garden use with the "Bayer" name...in the same logo for Bayer Aspirin. And it was Dr. Bayer himself that developed many of the poison gasses used in World War II. The Jewish consumer backlash forced them to nix that idea QUICKLY. Another company that was part of the group, ironically, was the one that made the graffiti resistant coating used on the holocaust memorial in Germany. There was initially a heavy firestorm of protest over that tainting the monument beyond repair, till it was shown the letter was anonymously written by a company outside of Germany that was also bidding on the contract and was hoping to grab business.

Holocaust deniers are mostly of the opinion that a book called "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is genuine. This work, proven to be fake, purported to be the Jewish plan to take over the gentile world through wily methods to undermine gentile faith in its own government. This book was popular in Germany between the world wars and also remains in print to this day in many middle eastern countries and in North American and European white superiority groups. Hitler, who read the work, felt he had proof beyond a doubt the Jews attempted to destroy the Kaiser and German resolve through secret negotiations to end a war they still mght have won, cripple the gentile milltary/industrial complex, then get into advantageous positions of power and money. The notorious forgery was originally written to secure the support of the Russian Tsar for a pogram against the Jews.

Yes Hitler was crazy. But not a raving lunatic. And Hitler absolutely believed he was defending Germany from a menace, though of course he also wanted personal power and had his own selfish reasons. In a sense he believed that he and Germany helped one another through enlightened self interest.

Understanding why holocaust deniers do their thing is...well...a simple matter of anyone who wants to find a certain thing bad enough finding it. Those who want proof the holocaust never happened can find it. Those who want proof it did happen can find it. But folks, there are actual documents...reports that the Germans filled out showing the numbers of bodies "harvested" by the Einsatsgruppen of the SS in various occupied countries, bragging that certain areas were already "Judenfrei" (Jew free).

The Third Reich collapsed so quickly at the end that the paperwork was nearly all captured intact. And if there is one thing the Nazis were, it's thorough in their paper trails. You couldn't get a nut to fit a certain bolt without a form.

John Burkitt

[Per Sempre]

which is always professional, it was one of the, if not the saddest times in the history of life. and history is my major! and this one time I saw oprah with my mom and this survivor from the Holocaust was on and they were over in germany i believe at the sites of the brutal murders and al and i just had the chills the entire show. they showed all the suit cases from the people who thought they were going somewhere but were just going to be killed, and they had this huge room full of hair from the prisoners. it was just really sad, and that's why i say its the saddest time in the history of life.A favorite director of mine,Steven Spielberg, did a documentary about the survivors. It almost made me cry. I didn't watch it,but my fourth grade teacher told us about one woman's story. She was a teenager and she was in a camp. The American soldiers had come. One said,"I am here to help you." and she replied,"But I'm Jewish." He said,"I am,too." They are married till this day.
Steven Spielberg is interested in the Holocaust and has done many more documentaries. He also made The Devil's Arithmetic . He daughter cane home one day reading the book,and that got him started.
lions mane,I totally agree with your post. It was one of the saddest times in the history of life,but history repeats itself. There were many other times equally sad. The Jewish nation has always been hated. Its just that way. I wish I could change things,but that's history. That's the past.

[Jood]

Saddest times in history?! I beg to differ. Look at my signature, I support the Jews, but you are forgetting something. Two words is all it needs:
Roman Empire.
Nero.
Martyrs.
Do you know what Nero did?! He covered Christians in pitch, and set them on fire to light his gardens at night. He fiddled (played his insturment) while Rome burnt to a crisp. He had hundreds, possibly thousands of Christians martyred. Slaves, and missionarys alike. Do not forget the times of martyrs my friends. Do not forget the book by John Foxe. Do not forget the hundreds of thousands who met sad ends, and are meeting them to this day. A young man in the Russian army was killed (by the army) for not denying Christ. That took place 50yrs or more ago, but thats not far back. Remember the martyrs. I didn't study Patrick Hamilton for nothing.

[Ephinie]

Saddest times in history?! I beg to differ. Look at my signature, I support the Jews, but you are forgetting something. Two words is all it needs:
Roman Empire.
Nero.
Martyrs.
Do you know what Nero did?! He covered Christians in pitch, and set them on fire to light his gardens at night. He fiddled (played his insturment) while Rome burnt to a crisp. He had hundreds, possibly thousands of Christians martyred. Slaves, and missionarys alike. Do not forget the times of martyrs my friends. Do not forget the book by John Foxe. Do not forget the hundreds of thousands who met sad ends, and are meeting them to this day. A young man in the Russian army was killed (by the army) for not denying Christ. That took place 50yrs or more ago, but thats not far back. Remember the martyrs. I didn't study Patrick Hamilton for nothing.Stalin killed large numbers of his own people as well... and that genocide was not confined to a religion or racial status. It was mostly political. But seriously... he killed millions of Russians in the purges.

[Cherrycola648]

I remember reading about this last year and i really got interested in it and started reading books about it and they ((Nazis)) made me so angry...but then i read Summer of My German Soldier and it kind of made my views change on nazis and realised how they were being manipulated by Hitler...((Swing Kids is a great movie too if you'd rather watch that than read...))

[Per Sempre]

Yeah...most of the soldiers were against the whole thing,but they were forced to fight or lose their lives before they step on to the battlefield.

[Son of Adam]

History wise there isn't much to add to what has already been said. One point I will make historically is that Hitler also used the Protestant Reformationist, Martin Luther, as sort of a role model or permissionist to go ahead with the holocaust. How? If you really read history, church history included about Martin Luther, one thing I leaned in Bible College and Seminary (Protestant by the way) is that Martin Luther became an anti-semetic later in his life.

After he led the Reformation movement so to speak, he went about in an effort to convert the Jews who resided in Europe at the time. He failed. And when he failed he took is anger and rage out on the Jews. He had them arrested, he had their businesses burned, he was responsible for many Jews being killed. That part of Martin Luther's history or biography isn't generally known, but Hitler knew it and used it to fuel his reasoning for killing Jews.

Now...some have asked the question of what good came out of the holocaust where 6 million Jews lost their lives.

Rom 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

In this case this verse isn't just a mere promise to hang on to but it became a reality for the Jews. Without the holocaust forcing the Jews to flee those countries where Hitler was making inroads or had already conquered, there would perhaps be no nation of Israel today. The Jews began to flee to Palestine and eventually became a nation once again. This is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy by several prophets including Ezekial and Jeremiah that God would bring back the Jews who were scattered throught the world and He would give the the land of their forefathers and they would be a nation once again. This is the beginning of the prophet last days. This is how we know we are in those last days - The Jews have returned to their homeland as God said they would in the last days.

The holocaust was a terrible time but God used it for His glory when Jews from all over the world decended once again to their homeland, God's land given to His chosen people in these last days. We can all take heart in that.

[Cyon Corell]

I, as a Muslim, was apalled to hear of the Holocaust, when first taught of it. My father had to deal with a similar, if not worse situation, back in 1971, in Bangladesh. This was when the Bangladeshi War of Liberation was going on. Bangladesh was fighting, tooth and nail for its right to exist as a nation and as a culture/people. The Pakistanis came, invade the country, and massacred somewhere between 3 and 5 million people in the space of 9 months. They did what Hitler did in 12 years, in nine months. So, I can understand the suffering of the Jewish people. My father was lined up to be shot, but at the last minute escaped death, due to an act of Allah, one might say. But that's a long story, one which I'll tell at a later juncture, if any wish to hear it. I proud to say that there were many Muslims, who, during the Second World War, saved hundreds, perhaps thousands of Jews, which contradicts that supposedly anti-Jewish stance of Islam, as presented by the kafirs that claim to be Muslims. BTW, my father has a Jewish aunt, so I can speak on this topic in far more depth than a lot of people. She never converted to Islam and has never been pressured to do so. That being said, though I support the existence of a home for the Jewish people, I disagree with many here, when I insist upon the joint existence of a Palestinian state, among other things. Much blood has been shed on both sides of the conflict in question, and while I believe it would be a grave sin to drive Israel into the sea, there must be moderation in any support given to such a secular cause as the founding, establishment, and expansion of ANY state's territory. As such, I really don't consider the Israeli-Palestinian conflict a religious one, that all pious, true believers MUST participate in, in order to gain entrance to Paradise, though some would beg to differ. In my belief there is no so-called 'chosen people', as we ALL can be elevated into God's favor and we ALL can fall out of God's grace, no matter our race, nationality, or in most cases, our creed. Descent from one son of Abraham or Shem, or Noah, or whoever, does not guarantee one's legtimacy in committing such actions as the of another's life. So, in short, while the Jewish people deserve a homeland, and while the Palestinians deserve the same, I would hesitate to give my undying support to such secular causes, unless doing so would allow me to save innocent lives, in accordance with my religion. Just my ten cents on that. Next topic, the massacre of Christians under Roman rule. First off, i'd like to direct any and all who are reading my post, at this point, to the text, the History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. While I do not agree with some of Edward Gibbon's stances, he does make at least one surprisingly true point. More Christians died at the hands of their fellow Christians, due to internecine warfare, than died during the approx. three hundred-four hundred years of Christianity's existence under Roman rule. On top of that, you add the fact that the Church had a monopoly on its own history. It bestowed the title of martyr on every believer during that time. Hence the reports of thousands, upon thousands of martyrs killed by Roman legionaries and other government forces. Refer to the text mentioned previously, if you doubt my stance. What I have here is what I've surmised so far, so any factual evidence that would disprove this would be quite enlightening to me, surprising as that may sound. I trust Gibbon's documentation, but will accept other works for referrence. Now to end this post. I agree that the Holocaust was a great tragedy and sin against humanity, as my stance is still as I have presented it earlier. In closing, I would like to mention that I have been to an actual concentration camp and met with a survivor of the said concentration camp. So I know what they looked and felt like, as far as a modern observer can. The camp was Mathausen (hope I spelled that correctly) and it's located in Austria. Add that to my family's personal experience and I believe that I can at least begin to understand what it was like for the Jews who suffered this great and terrible tribulation. Well, that's it.

See ya on the flipside, :cool:

Cyon Corell

[Tweetsie]

A favorite director of mine,Steven Spielberg, did a documentary about the survivors. It almost made me cry. I didn't watch it,but my fourth grade teacher told us about one woman's story. She was a teenager and she was in a camp. The American soldiers had come. One said,"I am here to help you." and she replied,"But I'm Jewish." He said,"I am,too." They are married till this day.
Steven Spielberg is interested in the Holocaust and has done many more documentaries. He also made The Devil's Arithmetic . He daughter cane home one day reading the book,and that got him started.
lions mane,I totally agree with your post. It was one of the saddest times in the history of life,but history repeats itself. There were many other times equally sad. The Jewish nation has always been hated. Its just that way. I wish I could change things,but that's history. That's the past.

We learn about history so it does not repeat this. Look around at all the people who learned about the holocaust and all those other things as well? It's not all for nothing, we're not supposed to sit here and discuss it in times of need. We're supposed to prevent it. That's why we learn about it. Those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it, and that is one thing I would never allow. A lot of other genocides are overlooked because people don't want to do anything about it, because they think it's too much work, but IT'S NOT. We- all of everyone has to make sure that our generation and the ones after us ALL do not ignore other genocides and other happenings in the world and don't allow them to happen.

But after all, that is not what this thread is for. -_-

[Swimfan1918]

which is always professional, it was one of the, if not the saddest times in the history of life. and history is my major! and this one time I saw oprah with my mom and this survivor from the Holocaust was on and they were over in germany i believe at the sites of the brutal murders and al and i just had the chills the entire show. they showed all the suit cases from the people who thought they were going somewhere but were just going to be killed, and they had this huge room full of hair from the prisoners. it was just really sad, and that's why i say its the saddest time in the history of life.
The survivor's name is Elie Weisel and they were at auschwitz-birkenau in Poland. Elie Weisel's written many books on the holocaust one of them being Night, which is an amazing and very sad memoir on his experience.

[narniakween101]

actually i just did a project about the holocaust. we read a book about it called Night by elie weisel. he was actually a prisoner who was lucky enough to be freed. it depressed me how people could be so wicked. i felt sorry for the jews even though that event was over. the were scarred for life.

[Per Sempre]

We learn about history so it does not repeat this. Look around at all the people who learned about the holocaust and all those other things as well? It's not all for nothing, we're not supposed to sit here and discuss it in times of need. We're supposed to prevent it. That's why we learn about it. Those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it, and that is one thing I would never allow. A lot of other genocides are overlooked because people don't want to do anything about it, because they think it's too much work, but IT'S NOT. We- all of everyone has to make sure that our generation and the ones after us ALL do not ignore other genocides and other happenings in the world and don't allow them to happen.

But after all, that is not what this thread is for. -_-
Strong opinions...but yes, we can't sit here and repeat every genocide and horrible event in history,can we? Like I said, history repeats itself. I agree, we should pay more attention to the not as well known but equally terrible happenings,but this thread is for one thing. The Holocaust. Not the whole history of civilization. --PS

[The First Joke]

ps,

i agree with you totally! we could have world war III any day now if we weren't careful!

[Twilight]

It was a horrid period of time; so many awful things were done to the Jews. If you see pictures and such, it is so heart breaking what they had to go through. So many families were separated, others worked or tortured to death. I cannot imagine how Hitler was in charge of this and did not stop it.

[Darth Sparhawk]

The Holocaust is a dreadful crime against humanity and the Jews and all people should be ashamed of this. It comes as a result of cruelty, desire for revenge and hatred. Hitler and his Nazi party was part of the commies plan to bring the whole Europe under their savage rule. In the end two eveils -Hitler and Stalin came one against the other and millions of people died - Jews, but other nations, too.
Sadly, I know people, politicians, even in my country, who are ultra-nationalistic and deny the Holocaust. One attemted to become President of my country and I was forced to vote for a former communist to prevent this.
This is what evil does - it forces us to go to paths, we otherwise have not chosen.
I hope that in this case History won't repeat itself.

[Copperfox]

During my Navy career, I once got to visit a small Nazi death camp in Poland. A chaplain who was with me said the predictable things about how we must never let it happen again. I replied, "Sir, saying that it must never happen again is completely useless unless we understand why it DID happen. The popular conception is that the Nazis were evil because they had a rigid belief in moral and spiritual absolutes. The actual truth is 180 degrees opposite to this. The Nazis had NO moral absolutes, and believed in NOTHING except raw power for themselves."

I am so sick and tired of politically-correct, factually-challenged Americans telling Christians, "You believe in absolute truth, so you're Nazis!" The Nazis changed their story whenever it suited them; only victory mattered to them. Followers of Christ, on the other hand, are not ashamed to follow _His_ absolutes--like love, mercy and charity. The real Christians in Europe during World War Two were not those who turned Jews over to the Nazis, but those like the Ten-Boom family who HID Jews from the Nazis.

[Darth Sparhawk]

You are right, Copperfox and I want to add that the Nazis are actually former commies. The full name of their party is actually "national socialistic". Many people seem to forget that.

[echoscot]

You are right, Copperfox and I want to add that the Nazis are actually former commies. The full name of their party is actually "national socialistic". Many people seem to forget that.


That is actually not true, the Socialist party is an extreme right party and the Communist party is a very leftist party. As a matter of fact the Nazi's tortured and imprisoned any open members of the German Communist party.

However on another note, I misposted this in a different thread:

On the topic of the German Holocaust, how many people have seen the original "Judgment at Nuremburg"? It was produced in 1961 with Spencer Tracy, Judy Garland, Maximillian Schell, and a pre-Star Trek William Shatner among others. It is a wonderful film that captures the complexity and humanness of Nazi Germany. It is well worth taking the 3+ hours to watch it. I am a bit of an afficiando of stories of that particular era, and I really enjoyed this one. :cool:

[Darth Sparhawk]

That is actually not true, the Socialist party is an extreme right party and the Communist party is a very leftist party. As a matter of fact the Nazi's tortured and imprisoned any open members of the German Communist party.

However on another note, I misposted this in a different thread:

On the topic of the German Holocaust, how many people have seen the original "Judgment at Nuremburg"? It was produced in 1961 with Spencer Tracy, Judy Garland, Maximillian Schell, and a pre-Star Trek William Shatner among others. It is a wonderful film that captures the complexity and humanness of Nazi Germany. It is well worth taking the 3+ hours to watch it. I am a bit of an afficiando of stories of that particular era, and I really enjoyed this one. :cool:
There is no left and rigght to murderers. They hide their malice behind names. Hitler was a friend of Stalin at the beginning. His problems with German commies were not ideological; he saw them as rivals and that's why he killed them.
Actually Nazi and Commies ideas are similar.
Nazis believe that history moved to victory of the proper race.
Commies believed that history moved to the victory of the proper class.

[echoscot]

There is no left and rigght to murderers. They hide their malice behind names. Hitler was a friend of Stalin at the beginning. His problems with German commies were not ideological; he saw them as rivals and that's why he killed them.
Actually Nazi and Commies ideas are similar.
Nazis believe that history moved to victory of the proper race.
Commies believed that history moved to the victory of the proper class.


You missed my point, I was not justifying anything, there is no doubt that Stalin was just as bad or worse than Hitler. However, your initial claim that the communists are the same as the Nazis and pointing to the title "National Socialist" is incorrect. Many people, who were Communists living in Germany at the time became political prisoners or were sterilized or otherwise abused because they did not switch allegiance to the Nazi party. Some switched because they felt forced. It is also a misunderstanding to claim Stalin and Hitler were buddies. They were not, they signed a pact out of selfish desire to preserve their own hides, Hitler was foolish and greedy enough to break it.

Communism is not really about elevation of a particular class, but the elimination of classes altogether and putting everyone at equal ground. Stalin took that to mean eliminate every one who couldn't cut it on his terms. Communism is very idealistic, however people are very different by nature, each created with unique abilities, talents and gifts. There will always be someone better and someone worse off than you. Then communism's biggest failing, leaving God out of the equation. Socialism on the other hand, is elevation of a particular ideology above all others. What is extraordinarily odd, is that France did not want to be occupied by Nazi Germany, so many allied forces gave their lives to deliver them from that, so that now they could elect to have Socialism again. The French have always seemed a little odd to me anyway.

[Shadow Hawk]

Okay......I'll stay out of that....It might get ugly.

I agree that the holocaust was bad. but so many miss the good things. or the general's thoughts of the jews. If you keep looking at the bad things in it,..it will show through you. and you will begin to hate certain people or peoples.