Discussion About Eve [Archive] - The Dancing Lawn - Official Forums of Narnia Fans

♣Teh Deviant♣

06-27-2006, 07:15 PM

Well, I was reading a book titled A Goddess is a Girl's Best Friend by Laurie Sue Brockway, and it speaks about how mostly the divine is male, and not female, and that is why many females suffer from low-self-esteem and such.
The first chapter talks about Eve in the Garden of Eden. Now, I'm really new to this, since I've never picked up a bible, and this is the first sorta religious thing I've ever read apart from a book about angels, and it interests me that Eve is supposedly..no good?
It leads me to question if the bible is sexist?

Any discussion would be great, thanks.

Elf Of The Grey Havens

06-27-2006, 07:17 PM

Actually, you're wrong. It is the veiw of general Christianity that Adam and Eve are in Heaven, and that Adam comitted just as big a sin as Eve.

LifeMaiden

06-27-2006, 07:22 PM

Malacandra where are you when we need you LOL?

There's a thread on this topic of femininity/females and how women are viewed or portrayed by the Catholic Church mainly that I started a while back. It got pretty heated LOL.

I've read many books about how Christianity has 'downtrodden' on women, etc. But in reality the mistake was made by human beings, not the Christian faith, and the people in power at the respective times to make women second class citizens or to disrespect them as Christian women and their important roles they play in society and family.

Noteworthy books to be read about goddess mythology and women are numerous. One of my favorites was THE CHALICE AND THE BLADE.

Many people throughout history have misread or purposely maligned traditional Biblical scripture to use it to suit their own warped purposes and needs. I sort of fell into that trap of believing some of the books I read about how women were treated badly in history because of Eve's 'sin' .

♣Teh Deviant♣

06-27-2006, 07:25 PM

I wasnt stating anything, Elf of the Gray Heavens, I was merely asking others' opinions. So why am I wrong?

Since I havent read the bible..I really dont know what was the sin that Eve committed. Something about tasting good and evil?:confused:
I wanted to have a discussion on Eve in particular, to get to know more about her, familiarize myself, so that I could then participate in IM's heated thread. :D

Elf Of The Grey Havens

06-27-2006, 07:28 PM

♣Teh Deviant♣

06-27-2006, 07:31 PM

You're wrong about thinking the Bible may be sexist.

I didint state that it was!:eek: I was just asking if it was! Gah! :rolleyes:

onlymystory

06-27-2006, 08:16 PM

Elf, be nice and helpful. And quit antagonizing sofie! :p

Anyway, so Sofie, the story of Eve. So forgive me while I back up a little. Now the Bible says God created the world in six days and on the sixth day he created first Adam and then Eve. We don't really know how much time passed between the fall (the first sin) and the last day of creation but basically, God placed Adam and Eve in this gorgeous garden called the garden of Eden. Eden is like the ultimate paradise. There was one tree in the middle which was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God told Adam and Eve they were welcome to eat from any tree except that one. Well, then you've got the charming little guy known as Satan who decides to come around and have a chat with Eve. (oh, note that satan isn't this ugly little pitchfork dude. He can make himself appear very appealing.) So he tells Eve she should eat from the tree. Eve says, "no, because God said if we eat from it we'll die." Satan says, "you won't die, you'll just become as smart as God". I'm pretty sure it took a little longer and was a lot more subtle but ultimately the bible says Eve fell to temptation and took a bite of an apple. She then offered it to Adam and he took a bite. At that point they both realized the difference between good and evil and suddenly they were ashamed and afraid and very much aware of sin. They hid from God, he found them (being God it wasn't too hard) and they were punished. So Eve's punishment would be that she would endure pain in childbirth, Adam that he would have to work for a living, and both were banished from Eden. The banishment is the real punishment. I mean you've got two people who got to walk and talk with God without any awareness that evil existed and then they disobey on the only thing he said not to do and so now they have to live without God.

So that's the story. Now the debate with Eve.
1) Eve was not an afterthought or created to make Adam happier. God created Eve because Adam wasn't complete without Eve. When people say the woman is the other half its true. Eve is the crowning glory of God's creation. The pinnacle. The perfect picture of God's beauty and grace. You picture the most beautiful woman in the world and Eve has her beat. Eve is perfect in every way.
2) Eve did not trick Adam into eating the apple. The Bible says she gave him the apple. English gets it a little confusing but the meaning of the original Hebrew is not that she walked around the garden for a while and eventually handed it to him and he unwittingly took a bite. The word gave in this sense means that Eve turned and handed Adam the apple. He knew exactly what he was getting into.

I'll get to the whole the bible is sexist thing later. but there's a bit on Eve. If you have more questions just ask.

echoscot

06-27-2006, 08:23 PM

I didint state that it was!:eek: I was just asking if it was! Gah! :rolleyes:

I think there was some misunderstanding here. That is one of the difficulties of forums like this, it is easy to misread intent, especially on personal or hotbed issues.

What you are asking about with Eve, is a subject of much debate. You should read the Biblical account for yourself. It is Genesis Chapters 1-3.

The sin was in wanting to be like God themselves. When He approaches them in the garden, he asks reasonable questions, like a parent already knowing what was done. There is nothing sexist about the situation. God asks Adam how he knew he was naked. The first thing the man does is blame the woman, makes me think this is a very realistic scenario. He says,"Well, this woman that you made for me, brought me some of the fruit from the tree and I ate it." (I mean like she held a gun to his head or something :rolleyes: ) So God, very reasonably goes to her, and she blames the serpent, "Well, the serpent you put in the Garden deceived me."( Pass the buck again). So God doesn't even ask the serpent anything but starts passing judgement with him, the serpent.

He makes it clear that they ALL screwed up and there is a price to pay, but underneath (Get this, cause this is the way cool part) He knows that He will have to pay the ultimate price. Even at this stage, He knows that He will give the life of His only son to buy back both the man and the woman. The hint is in the curse/prophecy he bestows upon the serpent. :D

♣Teh Deviant♣

06-27-2006, 08:26 PM

Thanks, OMS!:D That's very informative. Just what I wanted to know.
So, Eve provides a balance..like salt and pepper. :D
I guess it depends on how you interpret it though..like I know many people who are sexist (including myself :o) and what Laurie S. Brockway says in her book is that the thought of Eve being a counterpart and not important has been engrained into our minds and that's the cause of many feminine..probalems. :rolleyes:
I guess some of us have to re-interpret it.

I'm not saying that the bible is sexist.

Also, wasnt there another one as well? Lillith, before Eve? Wasnt that Eve's mother? Didnt she become..wild or something?

onlymystory

06-27-2006, 08:43 PM

Lilith is a legend but the legend is that she was Adam's first wife not Eve's mother. and yeah there's a whole thing on her becoming wild. but its not really bibically based as far as I know. I know I've got a good book about Lilith somewhere. I think its by George McDonald but I'm not sure. I'll pm you when I find it. Its a good read.

I did want to add that I'm not trying to excuse Eve in the least just that she didn't trick Adam. He was just as responsible for his own actions.

Oh and I'm curious about this author you read. Not that I agree with any of this goddess stuff but traditional paganism focuses a great deal on the sanctity of the sacred feminine and the divine goddess. She's a lot more important to paganism. Usually the argument is against the church not against God.

pink-cheetah

06-27-2006, 09:19 PM

echoscot

06-27-2006, 11:06 PM

actually, in the middle east, werent girls and women considered inferior to boys and men? correct me if im wrong..
which is why i believe that that is why the resurrected Jesus first appeared to women...

Yes, and no. Yes women in those areas were often treated with inferiority to men. As to why Jesus appeared to them first, that is speculation, but it certainly says a lot about His views on women. He also spoke to the woman at the well, who was not only female but a hated Samaritan. That says bucket loads right there. No Kosher rabbi or teacher would have even looked at her, let alone address her and let her know that he sees the secrets of her heart.

The Bible certainly is sexist. LOL. I hear that a lot, Deviant, not just on this forum. It is usually said by those who don't really understand it or know it.

Parthian King

06-27-2006, 11:36 PM

♣Teh Deviant♣, may I suggest in a spirit of meekness and sincere humility that you read the Bible you are asking about. It is a remarkable collection of books in one volume, and I think you will find it surprising. Although there are many Scriptures that mdoern feminists balk at, most of the offense arises from misinterpretations and misunderstandings of ancient culture and customs.

The Bible is a temendously woman-empowering book. Great women like Deborah, Esther, and Ruth challenged the order of a male-dominated ancient world and were recognized for it. The Matriarchs gave birth to nations. "Bad girls" became heroes because they saw deeper truths at work and had the courage to move on them. The women saints of the early Church held positions of influence and their deeds are exalted for us to emulate.

It makes great reading. I really do recommend it.

LifeMaiden

06-28-2006, 03:23 AM

That's what leads me to wonder just how much the Bible has been MISinterpreted in the past by those in power who wanted to keep women second class citizens. If Christianity upholds the power of females and respects femininity, then why IS it that even in strongly Christian countries, women are still second class citizens?

LifeMaiden

06-28-2006, 03:25 AM

Since this thread has gone a little bit off topic regarding Eve, should I start another thread about the Bible being sexist? I'll start it. It appears that even amongst Christians there is disagreement on whether the Bible is sexist or not. ( rushes off to start it)

Parthian King

06-28-2006, 03:39 AM

Well, IM, as I have posted on numerous occasions, there are no "Christian countries" and there never have been. There are only Christians--good or bad. The word is a noun, not an adjective, though we often use it that way in popular speech. A Christian by definition is someone who has repented and chosen to follow Christ, and has received new birth. Human systems (including governments and societies) can be biblically oriented in a general sense, or can be religious, but finally they cannot be Christian, since that word applies only to people.

This somewhat pedantic but critical distinction would save a lot of people a lot of frustration (and Christianity a lot of slander) if it were only more fully recognized.

That said, there is no doubt that men throughout the ages have used and misused Scriptures to keep women down. Illiteracy alone has had a great deal to do with this. But such is a fallen planet full of imperfect people, even imperfect Christians. That doesn't mean, though, that it is the Bible's "fault." I could give a thousand examples of abuse of good things (either on a scale of personal relationships or a scale of entire societies), but that doesn't mean we should abandon those good things. Just because men have abused Ephesians 5 (of all texts) to make sure "women stay in their place" (i.e., "women submit to your husbands") doesn't mean we should leave it behind, because in so doing we'd miss out on the fact that the chapter really says men and women should submit to each other, and if anyone should keep track of their "place," it's the man--he should live carrying his cross for the sake of his wife.

It is still important to note that, broadly speaking, wherever Christianity takes root, women generally fare better than they had before. I ask someone to show me historically where women were doing just great, then Christianity came and oppressed them. Sometimes things aren't much better, especially right away, but I am pressed to think of a case where a previously unevangelized area put women down as a direct result of hearing the gospel. Jesus treated women in the proper way, neither denigrating them nor placing them on a pedestal (which ultimately always works against anyone). His followers cannot escape that, and on a systemic level, it has the tendency to catch up, even if imperfectly.

LifeMaiden

06-28-2006, 03:49 AM

Okay well I just posted another thread about opinions regarding the Bible being sexist. When I state ' Christian countries' I mean countries in the West where a vast majority of the people in the government and population are Christian. Such as America, for example, Latin America, the Phillipines, Mexico, Ireland, and many countries in Europe.

Parthian King

06-28-2006, 04:03 AM

Sure, I know what you meant. That's why I called my own reply pedantic. But I still think it is important to say, because even at the political and religious high-water marks of those societies--their "Golden Ages" where they took the most pride in the "fact" that they were a "Christian country"--terrible national sins were right there in front of them, but were ignored. That's why I say that, for my part, I prefer not to speak of "Christian countries." As I read history, I find true Christians, but I have yet to find a country that I am satisified to call by that name.

inkspot

06-28-2006, 09:06 AM

Sofie, I think it is great you are exploring subjects which can help you feel empowered as a woman! If you like books with some big words that you have to think about, I would suggest John and Staci Eldredge's "Captivating." I think it gives you a beautiful view of how God sees you, as a woman -- as OMS described, the crowning glory of His creation.

OMS and others have given you the scoop about Eve, so I won't belabor that one except to agree: Christ loved and honored women, so we cannot blame Him for abuses against us. :)

Sunrise

06-28-2006, 12:01 PM

I'm gonna throw in a little side note here, just to make things interesting.

I read once (can't remember where) about the "curse of Eve" being somewhat mis-interpreted or mis-translated in our modern setting. It's a two-part curse - there's the bit about bringing forth children in pain, and then the next part which goes something like, "your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." (Forgive me if my wording isn't exact; I don't have a Bible in front of me.)

Generally we think of the pain of childbirth being a fulfillment of the first part of the curse, which seems fairly obvious. According to what I read, however, the word translated "pain" could more accurately be translated as "sorrow", and referred more to the sorrow of bringing forth children into a sinful and fallen world. Or maybe both. There are actually women out there who describe their childbirth experiences as painless - so what, did they miss out on the curse?

The second part of the curse, it was explained, is more accurately interpreted as "your desire shall be for your husband's place" - i.e. his position of leadership in the relationship. Apparently this was the author's explanation for the fact that cross-culturally, women have a bent to try to step in and run things instead of allowing their men to fulfill their God-given responsibilities, and get all bent out of shape when they are quelled in this attempt. (I'm humorously reminded of the "suffragete" song in Mary Poppins: "Though we adore men individually, we agree that as a group, they're rather stupid...") :p

Anyway, I haven't done my own research on this as far as the translations go (bad me), but I thought it was interesting. Any thoughts?

inkspot

06-28-2006, 12:38 PM

I had never considered either of those positions. It makes sense, though, because as lovely as motherhood must be, there would also be th fear of having to let your child go -- to school, and then to college, and then to adult life, and you can't protect them ebery minute, so there's a sorrow to it, as well.

And for the desire for the husband and/or his place, I always thought it meant we would be alternately exasperated by and longing for him, which is a good thing and a bad thing together .... where in a perfect world we could love him without the exasperation! Your explanation sounds better.
:)

Queen Swanwhite

06-28-2006, 01:07 PM

I think I've said this on another thread, but the bible isn't sexist. Those times, until the early 20th century, maybe beyond, thought women no good. The book you are ready (or probably by now, read) is wrong about only Adam being divine. Everyone is divine, even then and now. Eve was as special as Adam, and had a major part to play in the bible, obviously. I don't know as much as other members about Christianity in general, or Catholicism either, but I do know a great deal about my churches teachings. My views are that everyone is sent by God and he loves us all

QS

LifeMaiden

06-28-2006, 03:15 PM

Wings of Vanity

07-10-2006, 06:22 PM

I posted that thread there about the Bible being sexist or not...seems like the majority don't think it is.
really interesting topic (I actually hurried over to this thread cause my name is Eve, but now i see). I have to take religion at my school and yeah there is so much that actually can be contumplated on this matter.

Malacandra

07-10-2006, 06:37 PM

Malacandra where are you when we need you LOL?

Sorry, I can't be expected to pick up on every piece of female silliness that's going. But I'm only a PM or an email away. :p

I find it really hard to believe that Teh Deviant couldn't pick up a Bible and check out the first few chapters of Genesis for herself. It's not like the book's hard to find.

Ephinie

07-11-2006, 01:40 AM

I find it really hard to believe that Teh Deviant couldn't pick up a Bible and check out the first few chapters of Genesis for herself. It's not like the book's hard to find.But it's so much more fun when we talk about things on here, though. :D

inkspot

07-11-2006, 12:58 PM

But it's so much more fun when we talk about things on here, though. :D
So true!

if anyone wants to check out scriptures online while still staying on narniafans, you can go to www.biblegateway.com, and they have several versions of the Bible online you can read or search for the scripture you are looking for. I like New King James, The Message and Contemporary English Version, as well as New International.

♣Teh Deviant♣

07-12-2006, 01:13 AM

Sorry, I can't be expected to pick up on every piece of female silliness that's going. But I'm only a PM or an email away. :p

I find it really hard to believe that Teh Deviant couldn't pick up a Bible and check out the first few chapters of Genesis for herself. It's not like the book's hard to find.

Maybe because my mom is a complete agnostic.:)

BroncoCop

07-12-2006, 02:25 AM

Howdy!!!!

I think perhaps I am the wrong person to be adding to this thread. But I see the fun in this and would like to give my opinion.... so those of you who are easily offended you might want to turn a blind eye.

I respect Eve.

Consider this, you women out there. Imagine being responsible for giving birth to all those children, we obviously can't just think she had Cain and Able. Then see your daughter marry your son, how creepy! Brings new light to the song "I'm my own grandpa".

But in all seriousness, Eve was given the "Lion' share" of the punishment due to her being the first to eat of the tree of life. Then (I believe) she turned around and (these are my beliefs) cohersed her husband (let's face it guys, when a woman wants you to do something bad enough a few bats of the eyelashes, and a little seductive tone really make it hard to resist) to eat the fruit. Was Adam wrong? Of course! But I truly believe Eve started a trend that continues today in that a woman will use her feminine "wilds" to mess with us unsuspecting and weak minded males.

BC

Aslan's Beloved Daughter

07-12-2006, 02:27 AM

Yeah we sure are a tricky part of the species ;)........

Ephinie

07-12-2006, 02:34 AM

But I truly believe Eve started a trend that continues today in that a woman will use her feminine "wilds" to mess with us unsuspecting and weak minded males.Ah ha! So the truth comes out! Men are weak-minded. I knew it all along. :p

BroncoCop

07-12-2006, 02:38 AM

Tricky!!!!????

Ha!! HA!!!

Well put young lady.... yes, very well put.

I look upon my 2 year old daughter, especialy in public, and can easily see that she already has this power over men. THAT is not a learned skill, not at that age.

Perhaps when I am older (80-90 years) I will attempt to write a book about women, starting with Eve and working down. In it I will try to explain the little things that women refuse to let us men in on..... who am I kidding, it will never work.

Ephinie

07-12-2006, 02:41 AM

It may not work, but it would be an interesting book to read, nontheless. It would let us know how much men have figured out about us and where we've slipped up in our grand conspiracy. ;)

BroncoCop

07-12-2006, 02:46 AM

It may not work, but it would be an interesting book to read, nontheless. It would let us know how much men have figured out about us and where we've slipped up in our grand conspiracy. ;)

Ah HA!!!!

It IS a conspiracy!!!!!

Imagine this, Eve at home tending to the 400,000 kids they had, pulling her hair out and getting all flustered. Adam comes home covered in dust and grime from the fields, stomps over her newly waxed floor, and the first thing out of his mouth is "Where is my dinner, woman?!"

This is where we get the first case of Criminal Domestic Violence!

Ephinie

07-12-2006, 02:55 AM

Ah HA!!!!

It IS a conspiracy!!!!!

Imagine this, Eve at home tending to the 400,000 kids they had, pulling her hair out and getting all flustered. Adam comes home covered in dust and grime from the fields, stomps over her newly waxed floor, and the first thing out of his mouth is "Where is my dinner, woman?!"

This is where we get the first case of Criminal Domestic Violence!Except this first case of Criminal Domestic Violence would have been Eve beating the crap out of Adam rather than the other way around!

Though honestly... I'd contend that being forced to bear 400,000 children would be the first case of domestic violence. That's just cruel.

BroncoCop

07-12-2006, 02:59 AM

Except this first case of Criminal Domestic Violence would have been Eve beating the crap out of Adam rather than the other way around!

Though honestly... I'd contend that being forced to bear 400,000 children would be the first case of domestic violence. That's just cruel.

Of course 400,000 is just a number I made up.

Anyway, God DID say "Be fruitful, and multiply" did He not? (says the man with 5 children)

I don't think it is money that is the root of all evil..... I think it is women. Why did God have to make women so lovely?! Frustrating for us men because we are so vulnerable. It is an unfair advantage.

Ephinie

07-12-2006, 03:26 AM

Of course 400,000 is just a number I made up.

Anyway, God DID say "Be fruitful, and multiply" did He not? (says the man with 5 children)

I don't think it is money that is the root of all evil..... I think it is women. Why did God have to make women so lovely?! Frustrating for us men because we are so vulnerable. It is an unfair advantage.Well it was like this... after making Adam, God decided that he needed something that was easier on the eyes to look at. Men are so vunerable ot our wiles precisely BECAUSE they were made first. Since God had not made woman yet, He had not given man any natural defensive systems against us.

Oh yeah, and five children isn't excessive. I think that's pretty normal for a lot of Christian families, especially depending on what tradition one is from. What denomination are you? And my own parents had four.

BroncoCop

07-12-2006, 03:49 AM

Well it was like this... after making Adam, God decided that he needed something that was easier on the eyes to look at. Men are so vunerable ot our wiles precisely BECAUSE they were made first. Since God had not made woman yet, He had not given man any natural defensive systems against us.

Oh yeah, and five children isn't excessive. I think that's pretty normal for a lot of Christian families, especially depending on what tradition one is from. What denomination are you? And my own parents had four.

Definately easier on the eyes..... I am VERY thankful it was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

As to being defensless. I would have to agree. In some ways I agree with that rough draft prior to the masterpiece thing. It is kind of funny, that men teach their sons to go on the hunt for a nice young lady. Men go on the "prowl" to seek out the woman they want. But like the true hunter, you women allow the men to think we are the ones doing the hunting, leaving us blind to the fact that we are only hunting an enigma.... the true hunt is being conducted by the woman.

Just like Eve in the garden...... not fair not fair not fair

In answer to your question I am a southern baptist. My wife comes from a very large family, her father is italian catholic, her mother is mid-eastern jew. Thier family is rather large as well.... so naturally she wanted a large family.