What constitutes an unforgiveable sin?

[LifeMaiden]

Allright, here's the seperate thread I'm posting which veers off from the abortion thread regarding what sins will and won't be forgiven by God. What constitutes a mortal sin, an unforgiveable sin? How are these sins defined by the Bible, and what if one has committed such a grave act against God? If one is truly sorry for having committed such a sin, will they be forgiven?

[Elf Of The Grey Havens]

I think any sin can be heald, with enough penance and true repentance. However, few people are truly sorry enough to repent for sins like mass murder.

[QA48]

The only sin that the bible talks about being unforgivable is Blasphemy to the Holy Spirit. I have asked what examples of commiting blasphemy towards the Holy spirit but I haven't been able to get a clear answer..

[onlymystory]

if I read my bible correctly, the only truly unforgiveable sin is blasphemy. but for that i myself would love to hear some thoughts on the definition of blasphemy. I know my brother and I disagree on that one. To me blasphemy is claiming to be God. but blasphemy is the only unforgiveable sin that I know of.

[QA48]

Ok I found the verse:

"Most certainly I tell you, all sins of the descendants of man will be forgiven, including their blasphemies with which they may blaspheme;but whoever may blaspheme against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"
Mark 3:28-29

Everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
Luke 12:10

[Elf Of The Grey Havens]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that you really have to WANT to go to hell to be able to truly commit eternal blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. You have to be able to say "I know you're all-powerful God, but I don't care! Forget you, God, I'm going to hell!"
To want forgiveness at all is acknowledging that God can keep you from Hell.

[QA48]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that you really have to WANT to go to hell to be able to truly commit eternal blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. You have to be able to say "I know you're all-powerful God, but I don't care! Forget you, God, I'm going to hell!"
To want forgiveness at all is acknowledging that God can keep you from Hell.
So, What if the perso changes his/her mind?

[Elf Of The Grey Havens]

So, What if the perso changes his/her mind?
Changes his mind, when? In Hell?

[QA48]

Changes his mind, when? In Hell?
No, after commiting blasphemy against the Holy Spirit while on earth.
I've always thought Once God has written something he can't go back and change it to make exceptions......Again Its just a thought....

[Elf Of The Grey Havens]

No, after commiting blasphemy against the Holy Spirit while on earth.
I've always thought Once God has written something he can't go back and change it to make exceptions......Again Its just a thought....
I was thinking you can't complete full blasphemy against the Spirit if you ever change your mind, it has to be kinda perpetual.

[LifeMaiden]

Changes his mind, when? In Hell?


I shouldn't laugh but that sounds totally funny ( in a good way I mean) about a person being in Hell and realizing, whoa, it's too hot down here and Satan isn't the bad fun loving guy like I thought, maybe I should change my mind and reconsider heaven.....

[QA48]

I shouldn't laugh but that sounds totally funny ( in a good way I mean) about a person being in Hell and realizing, whoa, it's too hot down here and Satan isn't the bad fun loving guy like I thought, maybe I should change my mind and reconsider heaven.....
Especially those who made fun of us for following Christ. I wonder what will go through their head....I ask God for compassion. To be honest there's a part of me that wishes to say "HA! I told you so!" :(

[Parthian King]

William Booth, founder of the Salvation Army, openly wished he could dangle his recruits over Hell so that they would have more compassion for those who don't know Christ. Any idea that we might sense some triumph at even our worst enemy suffering there, or the thought that there would be anything approaching humorous self-reflection in Hell reveals we don't understand what an eternity without God really means.

I don't aim to the "heavy" in this exchange, but some things are just too serious to play with.

[EveningStar]

Elf of the Grey Havens is right about Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

It is unforgivealble because it requires informed consent and an unyielding, unchangeable attitude of hostility and opposition to love, order, and compassion.

The universal answer to the question is, therefore, IF YOU ARE AFRIAID YOU MIGHT HAVE COMMITTED IT or IF YOU ARE AFRAID YOU HAVE, your fear is proof you haven't and couldn't.

[pacifiquesea]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that you really have to WANT to go to hell to be able to truly commit eternal blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. You have to be able to say "I know you're all-powerful God, but I don't care! Forget you, God, I'm going to hell!"
To want forgiveness at all is acknowledging that God can keep you from Hell.

It's merely a choosing of your own way, you know. And God will let you have your own way. If he presents himself to you, and time and time again you say "Not yet" or "Just after I have a bit of fun" or whatever, then your heart graduatlly hardens, making it more and more difficult for you to admit your sin and turn to God. I don't think those people want to go to hell; if they really knew what hell was, they would never say that. We don't even know what hell is actually like; they simply choose to worship themselves instead of God, just as we all would if God's grace had not been extended to us.

[EveningStar]

If you don't think I'm cute as a button, that's an unforgiveable sin. :D

[Adanedhel]

None...They are all forgiveable. None outrank eachoter!

[QA48]

None...They are all forgiveable. None outrank eachoter!
Except Blasphemy against the Holy spirit.

It's merely a choosing of your own way, you know. And God will let you have your own way. If he presents himself to you, and time and time again you say "Not yet" or "Just after I have a bit of fun" or whatever, then your heart graduatlly hardens, making it more and more difficult for you to admit your sin and turn to God. .

I remember one time my grandfather felt in his heart to talk to his neighbor about Jesus. By the end of the conversation the young man said "I'll accept Jesus When I'm in my 60's" and I kid you not that as soon as the young man got in his car he crashed into a post as he was living the complex. He died instantly.

[Narborg]

Elf of the Grey Havens is right about Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

It is unforgivealble because it requires informed consent and an unyielding, unchangeable attitude of hostility and opposition to love, order, and compassion.

The universal answer to the question is, therefore, IF YOU ARE AFRIAID YOU MIGHT HAVE COMMITTED IT or IF YOU ARE AFRAID YOU HAVE, your fear is proof you haven't and couldn't.


THanck for the expanation as to what it means, ive always wounder what exaclly it meant.
If you are woundering about why some people would chose to go to hell, then I would suget you read the Great Devorec by C.S. Lewis. It is a really esset read, and in it Lewis explains how heven and hell can co exist and how people can chose to go there. Its well worth a read.

[onlymystory]

So is blasphemy claiming to be God or not wanting anything to do with Him (all while knowing who He is)? Because I thought it was the first. And then my question is does blasphemy mean something that has to be ongoing for your entire life or is it a one time thing? I mean, if you meant it then but later realized the error of your ways, did you commit blasphemy or not? And is there any way to know exactly what blasphemy is? (and I'd like a serious answer please.)

[QA48]

I as once given this example:

Someone is brought to a prayer service, he/she is miraculous healed from cancer. If the person says "That's wasn't God that healed me, that was just a coincidence" Then that's Blasphemy.

[Narborg]

I as once given this example:

Someone is brought to a prayer service, he/she is miraculous healed from cancer. If the person says "That's wasn't God that healed me, that was just a coincidence" Then that's Blasphemy.


I think that Blasphemy against the holy spirt can also be deeper than that. When Jeus say it in the Bible, the pharises call his mirical the workof the devil. So I think that what the verses could be refering to is saying that God or Gods work is evil. Do people agree?

[onlymystory]

And what about the person who grew up in church, knows enough about God to make an informed decision about Him and understands the Bible's teachings, but still goes against it? And when I say go against it I mean has spent plenty of hours screaming at God, cursing at him, and then telling him you hate him, want nothing to do with him and to be honest don't even want to be in hell because God allows hell to exist and you want nothing to do with anything God is associated with. So is that blasphemy?

[onlymystory]

I think that Blasphemy against the holy spirt can also be deeper than that. When Jeus say it in the Bible, the pharises call his mirical the workof the devil. So I think that what the verses could be refering to is saying that God or Gods work is evil. Do people agree?

I'm double posting. sorry. but I thought the pharisees called Jesus a blasphemer not because of what he did but the fact that he did it while claiming to be God. And that the claim of being God was where the blaspheming came in. Which is where I'm confused. Which is it? claiming to be God or denouncing God?

[EveningStar]

As I said, it is the consensus of most seminarians that anyone worried about committing Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit could not have done so.

You'd have to feel sure you did, be proud of it, and hope you did! :D

It's also something you can't do while you are a non-Christian because a non-Christian could not knowingly seek to oppose something he/she did not actually believe in.

[Narborg]

Since your the only mod around, I might have to report you to youreslf!!!! :D
Anyway your question. I might need to look at my bible sometime to check, I dont think he difectly claimed to be God on this ocastion,. I might be wrong, but thats what I remember. He also said that someone who blaphised agnst the father( I think) would be forgive, but not the holy spirt. What dose this tell us?

[LifeMaiden]

Now THAT is truly an unforgiveable sin!!!! A MOD...DOUBLE POSTING? :D :D

[LifeMaiden]

Except Blasphemy against the Holy spirit.



I remember one time my grandfather felt in his heart to talk to his neighbor about Jesus. By the end of the conversation the young man said "I'll accept Jesus When I'm in my 60's" and I kid you not that as soon as the young man got in his car he crashed into a post as he was living the complex. He died instantly.


I've been out of touch with my faith for a long time, so what elements constitute blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

I don't think I'd agree that the guy crashing his car against the pole and dying is some kind of punishment, but you never know. A long time ago someone here posted that Marilyn Monroe told Billy Graham she didn't need Jesus, and two weeks later, she died.( Marilyn, not the forum member)

[arwenelizabeth]

Allright, here's the seperate thread I'm posting which veers off from the abortion thread regarding what sins will and won't be forgiven by God. What constitutes a mortal sin, an unforgiveable sin? How are these sins defined by the Bible, and what if one has committed such a grave act against God? If one is truly sorry for having committed such a sin, will they be forgiven?

I can tell you the Catholic teaching, as I learned it in my Sacred Doctrine course.

First of all, the structure of this question is ambiguous: "What constitutes a mortal sin, an unforgiveable sin?" Are you assuming that they are the same thing, or are you asking about each item individually? Because a mortal sin and an unforgiveable sin are not the same thing, although obviously the unforgiveable sin is a mortal sin.

A mortal sin is a sin which severs the Christian's relationship with God that was established at his baptism. The Catholic teaching is that the relationship is restored through repentance, sacramental confession and absolution, which erases the stain of the sin. Someone who dies having committed a mortal sin that has not been absolved is said to die "in a state of mortal sin" and although we can't know for certain what goes on after death, it's strongly recommended to avoid dying in that state.

Under the Catholic teaching, for a sin to be a mortal sin three criteria must be met:
1) The matter must be serious (this is a sort of loose definition, but you can see the difference, for example, between assaulting someone (serious) and making a rude face (not serious));
2) The person must have full knowledge of the seriousness of the action; and
3) The person must have full freedom to act, i.e. must not be coerced or forced into acting by any person or influence.
You can see that, because the considerations of these criteria will necessarily differ from person to person and act to act, it's very hard to say "Such-and-such is a mortal sin." At most we can say that such-and-such is generally a mortal sin, meaning that it is mortal sin when committed by sane and knowledgeable persons. For example, murder is generally a mortal sin, but if an insane man commits murder he is not acting with complete freedom, and therefore is not fully responsible for his actions.

In Catholic teaching there is only one unforgiveable sin, which is complete rejection of the salvation offered by God. Nobody need walk around worrying that he or she has accidentally committed the unforgiveable sin - it is only possible to fully commit this sin with the end of one's life on earth. It means saying to God, "I refuse to accept what you offer me, and choose instead eternal separation from you." It is unable to be forgiven by God not because God's mercy is somehow lacking - his mercy is perfect and eternal - but rather because the one committing it does not desire forgiveness.

Did I leave anything out?

[Elf Of The Grey Havens]

Nope, shining like the Evenstar as usual. That's what I was trying to say, but I couldn't get the right words. Of course you could :p But yeah, you have to be openly defying God.

[QA48]

I've been out of touch with my faith for a long time, so what elements constitute blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

I don't think I'd agree that the guy crashing his car against the pole and dying is some kind of punishment, but you never know. A long time ago someone here posted that Marilyn Monroe told Billy Graham she didn't need Jesus, and two weeks later, she died.( Marilyn, not the forum member)

I don't think It was some Kind of punishement, nor did my grandfather made it sound that way. What I do think is that God knew that it was his day to go and used my grandfather for the last time to give the young man a chance. The moral of the story would be that you never know when your last chance here on earth is going to be. Only the Lord knows....

[arwenelizabeth]

Nope, shining like the Evenstar as usual. That's what I was trying to say, but I couldn't get the right words. Of course you could :p But yeah, you have to be openly defying God.
Don't worry, Elf-dude, I'm sure that by the time you have your theology degree you'll be able to say it much more eloquently than that. :D

[Ephinie]

Okay, going back to one of the verses that QA48 quoted on the first page:

Everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
Luke 12:10

Isn't the "Son of Man" supposed to be Jesus? Okay, so why is committing blasphemy against Jesus forgiveable while committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit not forgiveable? They are both God... They are both the same God. How can you blaspheme one part of God without doing so to the rest? If someone walks up to you and stabs you, effectively hurting your body, doesn't that wound your spirit and soul as well? So how is it that you can blaspheme Jesus but not the Holy Spirit? I don't see how it's possible to committ an offense against just one part of the Trinity while leaving out the other two.

[Parthian King]

Ephinie, I believe the issue has to do with properly classifying the sin. If we begin with the persons of the Trinity and their relative "rank," then it doesn't seem to make sense. This very approach constitutes the gist of your question.

But Jesus isn't talking about a comparison between the importance of one member of the Godhead vs. another, He's speaking of the effect of the sin and working back from it, though it may not seem that way. A person who blasphemes God the Father is usually blaspheming the idea of God in general; a person who blasphemes Jesus as Son of God may not have come to grips with His true identity. But a true blasphemy against the Holy Spirit ultimately entails a rejection of conviction itself, meaning the repentance that leads to life. Since it is not the work of the Father or the Son to convict, but rather the work of the Spirit, it follows that a blasphemy against the Spirit is unforgiveable because the blasphemer puts himself/herself out of reach of the forgiveness that could be theirs if they would only repent.

[LifeMaiden]

ArwenElizabeth,

The question was not meant to be ambiguous. I was asking about each as an individual...what is considered a. a mortal sin and what is considered b. an unforgiveable sin.


Hope I've cleared that up. When I wrote the question I didn't know the difference between either one. I had read a book where this woman has an abortion and the priest told her it was a MORTAL SIN. So for some time, I was under the impression that in itself, murder ( i.e., having an abortion) was a sin unforgiveable in the eyes of God. Now that would be a big problem for me LOL returning to my faith if I can't be forgiven.

IM

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Oh, important distinction there. There's a HUGE difference between a mortal sin and an unforgiveable one. Mortal sins are serious, but they are certainly forgiveable - in fact, a good principle of spiritual life is the more serious the sin, the more swiftly one should seek forgiveness (not that one should take any sin lightly).

One important clarification, especially if you were trained by nuns as I was: when you're preparing for First Confession, you're often told that it's very important to "feel sorry" for your sins. This is an acceptable explanation for a 2nd grader, considering that the intent is to teach them not to rattle unthinkingly down a grocery list of wrongdoings. The mature reality of repentance has much more to do with our will and our choices than it does with our emotions and how we feel. "Repent" literally means "turn around", as you would "turn around" on a road when you realize you're going the wrong way. This may or may not have anything to do with how we feel. Maybe we'll have intense emotions associated with the turning around ("Nuts! I'm already late, and here I've been driving the wrong way for 30 miles!") and maybe we won't ("Oops! Should have turned left back there. No great harm - I'll just swing through this parking lot.") Repentance is a recognition of wrongdoing and a choice to turn from it - not a particular feeling.

The reason I'm bringing this up is that I've met adults who were still stuck on the 2nd grade definition of repentance, and though they knew they'd sinned and didn't do it any more, they felt they hadn't been forgiven because they hadn't yet "felt sorry enough". This is not understanding repentance and forgiveness. Our emotions are complex; sometimes we feel things we shouldn't feel and other times we don't feel things we should. As adults, we often come to see that some sins are so terrible that we could regret in pain for the rest of our lives and still not grasp the severity of what we've done.

Fortunately, God doesn't require certain emotions to extend forgiveness. Sometimes He makes use of them to get our attention (guilt is very useful this way), but the aim is not an emotional state, but repentance - turning away from the sin and back to Him. Heck, in one of the most touching stories of repentance ever told, the Prodigal Son (Luke 15), what brings the younger son "to his senses" is hunger! He simply recognizes that if he doesn't do something, he'll starve. Hardly a noble motive, but it will do. There may have been remorse, or he may have just been cooking up what he thought a suitable speech to speed the path to the dinner table; in the end it doesn't matter. The important point is that he turned from the wrong path and came home.

We all should keep this in mind - the important thing about repentance is the choice of the will, not the emotions that may or may not go with it. Though I think we Catholics have a powerful aid in the Confessional, this is one area where I think we could learn much from our Reformational brethren. It is among them that I have most often and clearly heard the ringing call to deep repentance - i.e. a firm choice of the will - and the power of the forgiveness that is extended to all who respond.

[QA48]

"The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." (John 14:26)

"When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." (John 16:13)

I think (again this is just an opinion) that when one commits blasphemy against the Holy Spirit one is insulting the very essence of God, His spirit. He is the one thing connecting us to the Son and our Heavenly Father. Like Parthian King said, people who commit blasphemy against God or Jesus are insulting a general idea they have of God. But to actually recognize the Holy Spirit and the role that he plays here on earth and still be able to tell him to "Get out of my life I don't want anything to do with you. I don't want your guidence" and actually mean it? Take in consideration what the bible says:

But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.'
Matthew 15:18

I believe the Holy Spirit is something very delicate and holy. Once the seed of hate agaisnt the Holy Spirit is planted in the heart that is it. Blasphemy has been commited and what has been written has been written. There is no turning back.

Again I stand corrected. The Holy Spirit is a very delicate subject for me so I don't really dare give out much of my opinions until I've been proven right or otherwise.

[Aitoren]

The universal answer to the question is, therefore, IF YOU ARE AFRIAID YOU MIGHT HAVE COMMITTED IT or IF YOU ARE AFRAID YOU HAVE, your fear is proof you haven't and couldn't.

But then isn't that in a way sort of like saying everything is forgivable? Because if you commit any sin, then ask for forgiveness, it shall be forgiven? Because if you are asking for forgiveness, it means you haven't committed the unforgiveable sin? So if you committed it, or thought you did, but then you repent, you never committed it? So no matter what you do, you can always be forgiven if you want to be?

[PrinceOfTheWest]

You can be forgiven of any sin you truly repent of, and ask Jesus' forgiveness for. This presumes you've asked forgiveness for the most fundamental sin, which is personal rebellion, and had the grace of salvation restored to you. (My Evangelical brethren might call this "Accepting Christ", and though I might use different terminology, I would mean the same thing.)

One thing not to forget: God sees our hearts, which means He knows our motives and intentions. This means that things that might fool men (such as flowery speeches or well-written letters) will not fool God. He can tell when we're really repentant for our sins, and what our intentions really are. This cuts two ways, of course - if we can't find the proper words to express our repentance, or don't quite know how to turn our lives around, He understands and appreciates our intentions regardless.

Again, I'm a Christian, so this is the only way I'm aware of for sin to be forgiven. To those who don't think they're such bad people, or think (like Zorba the Greek) that when we face God for judgment, He's just going to slime us with a big ol' sponge and open the gates of heaven regardless of what we've done - well, I don't have much to say to someone who thinks that.

[LifeMaiden]

POTW,

As usual I read with eagerness your post regarding First Confession. Since I was baptized as a Catholic late, at age 12, I don't really even remember any sort of 'training' or whatever to go into the confessional. I just remember going in there and saying whatever I had done that was sinful and saying the appropriate number of Hail Marys afterwards.


This is where a Protestant Christian friend of mine differed greatly in her views about many things the Catholics did that she didn't understand. And one of them was the confessional. Her question to me was, why do you bother to talk to a priest as an intermediary when you can just talk to God directly to apologize for your sins?

[pacifiquesea]

I'm a protestant who went to a Catholic high school, and while I value the concept of accountability I think that confession goes about it the wrong way. The whole point of Christ coming to Earth was to reconnect us to God, the curtain was torn and we could have a personal relationship with him. Our sins can be forgiven directly, without sacrifice or priestly intervention.

[Sunrise]

I'm a protestant who went to a Catholic high school, and while I value the concept of accountability I think that confession goes about it the wrong way. The whole point of Christ coming to Earth was to reconnect us to God, the curtain was torn and we could have a personal relationship with him. Our sins can be forgiven directly, without sacrifice or priestly intervention.

While I'm mostly in agreement with this - that we have direct contact with God's grace without needing a priestly intermediate - I think the Protestant church has sort of fallen into an opposing extreme in that we've lost track of the importance of confessing our sins aloud, not just to God, but to other Christians, for the purposes of accountability and mutual intercession. I know you mentioned accountability, and I hear it get a lot of lip service in churches, but I've seen very few individuals who actually put it into practice. Those that do are usually recognizable by greater maturity and resistance to temptation - it works so well, it makes me wish that Protestant denoms would find a way to make it a sort of "requirement", the way confession is (or supposed to be, I think) for Catholics.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Wow. This thread is becoming a "quick catechism" spot, which is fine.

Here's the Scriptural basis for the Sacrament of Confession. Jesus did some interesting things while on earth, but some of the most interesting were during the period between the Resurrection and the Ascension. Even if the disciples were still a bit clueless as to the plan (see Acts 1:6), He wasn't, and He was doing things to prepare the leaders of the Church for the role He had for them. One of the things is found in the Gospel of John, during Jesus' first appearance to the disciples after the Resurrection. It's found in John 20:22,23: And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
That's a curious thing for Him to say. He'd just finished the sacrifice on Calvary and been Resurrected in triumph, providing the means for the forgiveness of all sins. Why would He say something like that to the disciples? Why wouldn't He say something like, "If you come to Me, I will forgive all your sins"? Why involve men at all?

And then there was an interesting passage in the Epistle of James (5:14-16):Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.
Again, this seemed to involve the work of the People of God in the work of forgiveness and healing, even though we all understand that it is God Himself who actually executes the forgiveness and healing. Again, a curious thing: why would God involve troublesome humans in work he could do much more effectively by working directly?

The answer is that we don't know. (For that matter, we don't know why God chose to use the Church for anything, but that's another discussion.) The point is, He did. The Early Church was quite stringent about the James passage, interpreting "confess your sins to one another" quite strictly. Confessions were public, and penances (proofs of repentance) could be quite severe. Growing under circumstances of severe persecution, the Early Church took holiness quite seriously - it was assumed that believer's lives would be free of serious sin. It is important to remember that the Church always understood that it was Christ who did the forgiving, but since sin also damaged His Body, then His Body was involved in ministering that forgiveness to the penitent.

Over time, as the Church prayed and sought God's will in how His Church should work, the practice of public confession to the whole church was superceded by the practice of private confession to a representative of the Church - the priest. He would hear the confession, pronounce the forgiveness (under the authorization provided in John 20:22,23), and prescribe the penance*. That's the state of things today.

Does confession to the Church violate Christ's work? As we can see from the James passage, it clearly does not - it ministers Christ's work through the Church. Is it valid for a priest to hear a confession as a representative of the Church as a whole? In light of passages like John 20:22,23, the Church has interpreted that it is - again, not because the priest "forgives", but because he ministers Christ's forgiveness. Why would Christ involve men in something He could do directly? Frankly, I don't know - you'll have to ask Him. While you're at it, ask Him about all the Sacraments, because in every one of them, the Church understands that it is Christ actually executing the Sacrament. While you're at it, you can ask Him why He chose fragile men to write His Scriptures instead of just dictating it through an angel, as the Muslims claim the Koran was delivered.

One practical reason I can see from my years of observation: there's value in taking responsibility for a sin and having some other person tell you that you're forgiven. We humans can be very vague and abstract about our sins. I've known good Christian brothers and sisters who "confess to God", but never get specific about their sins. There's a difference between saying, "I struggle with anger" and "I was unjust to my wife last Tuesday afternoon when I blew up at her." Knowing that I was going to have to confess specific instances of sin has deterred me from committing sins. Furthermore, there's a benefit that one would have never expected - taking explicit responsiblity for specific sins committed has mental health benefits. This was explained to me by an atheist psychology professor, who admitted that the most mentally healthy people he knew of were old-line Catholics who went weekly to admit their wrongdoings, seek forgiveness, and strive to do better next week. I'm not saying that mental health was the reason that Christ instituted confession, I'm just saying it's an interesting side effect. I've seen people powerfully liberated from longstanding patterns of sin when they confessed specifics and received forgiveness ministered through the Church.

As an interesting aside, C.S. Lewis had a confessor who he visited regularly, even though Confession is not recognized as a formal sacrament by the Anglican communion.

---------------------------
*There's a lot of misunderstanding about what penance is, even among Catholics. Penance is not "working off sins". Penance is a concrete action by which the penitent demonstrates the sincerity of his repentance. Sometimes it is quite practical: a penance for the sin of theft would be restitution - the repayment of the stolen property. Sometimes it might be to go to a party and apologize for a wrongdoing like slander. For some sins, it might be prayer and meditation. But it is not to atone for the sin itself - only Christ's sacrifice does that.

[pacifiquesea]

I have no problem with the confessing, the accountability, or the specifying of sin; nor do I have a problem with God using his people to heal one another. Of course I agree that confession of sin is scripturally based, and I agree with most everything you said about how good confession is. What I do not agree with is that you must go to a priest. We are all one body - each of us is connected directly to God. Believers can minister in this way to one another because of that connection, and there need not be a priest involved. If it is a priest you are confessing to, that's all well and good, but as I'm a more reformed 'priesthood of all believers' type of person, I think that a priest's involvement is unnecessary.
Also, I disagree that Protestants should make it a "requirement" of any sort. We should teach confession and accountability - we should strongly encourage it! And we should confront others with their sin. But to force it is bad. If someone has heard and believed the message of God, and are growing in their relationship with him, he will lead them to realize how important it is. How do you propose, Sunrise, that it be a requirement?

[Jood]

Allright, here's the seperate thread I'm posting which veers off from the abortion thread regarding what sins will and won't be forgiven by God. What constitutes a mortal sin, an unforgiveable sin? How are these sins defined by the Bible, and what if one has committed such a grave act against God? If one is truly sorry for having committed such a sin, will they be forgiven?
Here's an answer:

Matthew 12:31
"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
(NKJV)

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Understood, PS - as expected, we're largely in agreement on this issue. A further discussion of the question of the requirement of a priest would involve unpacking the question of the priestly ministry, and how that relates to the priesthood of all believers, which would take this thread too far afield.

Just a question: how do you understand John 20:22,23? Do you interpret that as Jesus giving the authority to all believers? Especially noticing His words, which do not pertain to healing, but are "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven." (He does speak of the believer's ministering healing in other places.) That seems a pretty explicit tie of the action of the believer to the forgiving. How do you understand that?

[Sunrise]

How do you propose, Sunrise, that it be a requirement?

I don't, really. I just wish it were more emphasized within the protestant church. My experience as a protestant is that we get really uptight about any attempt to bind us with rules and rituals, and understandably so, since such things can lead to a lot of empty, meaningless rote behavior.

I just know that, personally, I'm a lot more likely to discipline myself to do something if I have it on authority that it must be done. A personal failing, yes, but one I daresay is pretty common.

[Narborg]

Jesus was saying that we must forgive others. The parable of the master of who forgave his servant a large debet but then didnt forgive a fallow sevents small debet shows a why. How can we revive forgives when we dont show it to others? This is not living out Gods love in our life. I dont belive that you need to confess your sins to a presit to be forgive, however, I think it is a good idea to hve someone who you feel canfotable to be acuntable to whio you can confess to.
On healing. It is God who heals us . Not man. However, somthings he dose it thoght people. We must remember that is is God who is healing, not us. The reason he uses us is to deepen our faith in him and to bild our relationship with him, not so we can feel good about ourselfs. Some people are gifted in healing, while others have difent gifts. But we should all pray for those we know who a sick tht God will hell them.

[pacifiquesea]

Yes, I believe that that authority was given to all believers. His directions about forgiveness came directly after their recieving of the holy spirit, so I believe that means that those who are Christians - having the holy spirit - are the ones to forgive. Though God is the one who truly forgives, it also applies to believers forgiving one another. Is that what you were asking?

[PrinceOfTheWest]

It was, but it raises some questions. Keeping in mind that all sin always has one offended party - God - and often has another offended party - some other person, I'm trying to understand your response.

If Mike sins against Tom, then in the natural order of things Tom could forgive Mike's sin against him. But what Tom cannot do is forgive Mike's sin against Judy. And Tom can certainly not forgive Mike's sin against God - that would be up to God.

Now, if I understand your response, you're implying that Christians have authority to forgive other's offenses against them. Well, they've always had that. But if what Jesus is talking about in John 20:22,23 is the same sort of forgiveness He was extending in Mark 2:5, then what He means is that they have the authority to forgive sins against God. Jesus seems to be extending to the disciples the same authority to forgive sins that He exercised when He was among them.

In case I've been vague, let me ask this: then if someone were to confess to me that they had slandered another person, under John 20:22,23 am I permitted to say, "Your sins are forgiven."?

[Rock4Life]

I believe God can forgive any and all sins, to say otherwise would be an imperfection and He is, by definition, an All-perfect Being. According to my faith, there are "unforgiveable" sins, in which, a priest cannot give absolution for, but one must go to a bishop, archbishop, or even cardinal..there may be some that need pardoning from the pope...Christ redeemed us all, giving all the opportunity to get to Heaven, it's up to us to decide if we are going to accept it and live our lives worthy of His sacrifice...i think an "unforgiveable" sin would have to be an extremely grave mortal sin, like mentioned before, mass murder....

[echoscot]

I believe God can forgive any and all sins, to say otherwise would be an imperfection and He is, by definition, an All-perfect Being. According to my faith, there are "unforgiveable" sins, in which, a priest cannot give absolution for, but one must go to a bishop, archbishop, or even cardinal..there may be some that need pardoning from the pope...Christ redeemed us all, giving all the opportunity to get to Heaven, it's up to us to decide if we are going to accept it and live our lives worthy of His sacrifice...i think an "unforgiveable" sin would have to be an extremely grave mortal sin, like mentioned before, mass murder....


Okay, some of this has been discussed before in this thread. So are you stating the mass murder could never be forgiven? Is this just a personal belief or do you have some substance to base this on? A Biblical statement, or at least some church doctrine or statement.

Since most of the threads in this area are pretty intense, we like people to post and state some reason for their positions. There are certain rules of debate that, hopefully at least, we try to follow although many of us have probably lost our tempers or violated them some other way.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

I'm intrigued here, narnia/lotr_rulz: I've never heard of a sin that had to be "elevated" to be absolved by a bishop or the Pope. Have you any references to Canon Law to support this? Since it is Christ who grants the forgiveness, and the confessor merely pronounces it, I can't think of a sacramental circumstance that would call for "bigger guns".

Even if that were the case, the furthest it could be "elevated" would be to the local ordinary, i.e. the bishop of the diocese. In terms of sacramental authority, the Pope only has jurisdiction over Rome, since he's the bishop of Rome. He speaks more widely on matters of faith and doctrine, and is the temporal leader of the Church at large, but each ordinary is sacramentally responsible for his own diocese.

[LifeMaiden]

I used to think as a young teen that when I went to confession, God heard everything, but the priest was sort of like a spokeperson for God. That's probably not a very good metaphor, but that was what I believed at the time when I was 12-13.

Back to unforgiveable sin now :D . You have all defined, as the Bible does, what an unforgiveable sin was, and how distinct it was from MORTAL sin. But the question now is...if someone committed genocide or mass murder, or some other horribly gruesome crime against others, if they were Christian and asked for forgiveness, would they be forgiven? How could mass murder and the terrible tragedy of say, the Holocaust or Pol Pot's regime, be forgiven in the eyes of God?

[Rock4Life]

right...I was stating what my 8th grade religion teacher told me...I can't recall if she necessarily mentioned the cardinals, etc. but i do know she said there were some where one was required to go to a bishop or someone other than one's local parish priest.....if I correctly recall, I think repeated abortions was one of them...I will see if my family has a copy of the Canon Law...if not I know my friend does...course I will know in the fall, I will ask my religion teacher then...perhaps my wording is wrong...I don't believe there is a unforgiveable sin..that is unforgiveable by God...is HE not all loving and a perfect being? if He was not capable of forgiving a /some certain sins, that would be and imperfection..

I think if someone is truly sorry for their sins, they can be forgiven...but if and only if they are WHOLY sorry fo rit (no attatchment)...

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Actually, that is a good metaphor. The priest can speak the words God would speak - sometimes they're encouragement and reassurance, and sometimes they're admonishment.

Regarding the question of severe sin like genocide - and, as you'd expect, the answer is a bit complicated, but not overly so. Both Jewish and Christian thinkers have put a lot of time on this question.

As I discuss a couple of posts back, every sin has at least two offended parties - God and some human (even "victimless sins", such as a man indulging in pornography, damage someone - in that case, himself.) This means that there are two realms of justice that must be satisfied: God's (the eternal) and man's (the temporal).

There is nothing any man can do to satisfy a sin against God. He is so holy, so perfectly just, that even the least of sins will separate the sinner an infinite "distance" from God. This is why Jesus Christ came down to die on Calvary, the innocent victim who had committed no offense, to wonderously satisfy the requirements of God's holiness and justice. Many metaphors are used to express this mystery, but a favorite of mine is "washing" - Christ's blood shed in selfless sacrifice washes away my sins. That is how the demands of eternal justice are satisfied: by Christ's sacrifice alone, plus nothing.

But even when the realm of eternal justice is satisfied, there are still valid claims in the realm of temporal justice. For instance, a boy who breaks a window for the fun of it has committed a sin. He can confess it and be forgiven his offense against God, but he'd still have to pay for the window replacement and maybe a little more to satisfy his offense against man. The satisfaction of temporal judgement can be where penance comes into play. If a man goes into a confessional and admits to embezzling millions of dollars, the priest can make his forgiveness predicate upon his returning the money and turning himself in to face the justice of the human law for his offense. This would not mean that the man would be 'earning' his forgiveness by this action. This would be a test of his sincerity. It's easy to say "I'm sorry" if there's no cost attached. The high cost of the penance would be a bar to test whether he was truly repentant (i.e. had turned around) or just regretful. Just because someone feels bad about what they did doesn't mean they've repented. Both divine and human justice would need to be satisfied, and if the man followed through on his penance, he'd probably be beggared and do some hard time - but it would be less hard than hell.

To tie this back to your specific example of a mass murderer such as Pol Pot - is the forgiveness of Christ broad and deep enough to cover such a sin? Yes, it is - if the person were to turn in true repentance. This is not to make little of such grave sin, but to make much of the mercy of God as expressed through Christ's sacrifice. However, this does not mean that the repentant party would get off "scot free". There would still be temporal justice to be satisfied - the penitent should acknowledge his guilt before men and submit himself to temporal justice, even if that justice meant the death penalty.

Here's the hitch: this is a hypothetical situation and likely to remain so. Both the Scriptures and Judeo-Christian tradition warn that the more you sin, the more you become enslaved to sin and hardened to repentance. (see 1 Tim 1:19,20 and Titus 1:15 for examples.) If someone were to reach the depravity of a Hitler or Pol Pot, it is likely that their consciences would be "seared" (in St. Paul's words - 1 Tim 4:1,2) and it would be almost impossible for them to repent. It is true that as long as someone draws breath, there is hope for repentance, but in actual practice the habits and bondage of sin make that more and more difficult for those who have long spurned repentance. This is why the Scriptures and Church warn so severely against adopting an attitude that says, "I know I'm being bad, but I'll have my fun now and repent later." This is a perilous attitude for several reasons, not least of which being the blinding effect of sin.

Thus, though Christ's sacrifice is great enough to cover even the Killing Fields, the practical dynamic of rebellion makes it unlikely that the perpetrators would seek to have Him cover their sins. Lewis portrays this in stark and chilling terms in the destruction of Belbury sequences in That Hideous Strength.

[echoscot]

Actually I think we can take the mass murder bit to a real leve, if we apply that to a serial killer. Ted Bundy and Geoffrey Dahmer both have prison witnesses that they turned their lives over to Christ before being executed, Bundy, who was executed at least legally, stated something to the effect that his execution was what he justly deserved. Then there was the case of the woman in Texas who was trying to get pardoned, but it wasn't granted. She claimed to have converted to Christianity while in prison under Episcopalean influence. So how about the validity of those claims? What do you guys think?

[PrinceOfTheWest]

In every case, I dearly hope that they all managed to turn their lives over to Christ and sought His forgiveness for their sins.

But even if this happened, it would not do away with the need to satisfy temporal judgement. If the account is correct, Ted Bundy would have had the proper attitude - that his punishment was deserved under the law of the land and required to satisfy temporal justice. With respect to eternal justice - if he turned to Christ in repentance, his sins would be wiped out.

[LifeMaiden]

So the key then in relation to the SEVERITY of the sin, ( and technically, I believe that having had abortions is a severe sin, so when a member here posted that someone might have to go to a bishop rather than the local parish priest at a church nearby, I wonder if that's what I'll have to do in addition to getting the post-abortion counseling from the lady that you recommended, POTW) it has to do with the person's TRUE REPENTENCE...in other words, it's very possible that someone could deeply regret what they have done, whether that was kill 48 women or a million people. And only God would know whether or not that person was truly sorry and gave his life to Christ in their hearts.

Unfortunately, I also read in Ann Rand's book about Ted Bundy that he stated he had no remorse for what he had done, that he was a 'cold blooded SOB' and that he felt nothing for his victims. She made no mention of him turning his life to Christ, although I have read that elsewhere. He was a master of manipulation so maybe he 'turned to Christ' so people would have a little more feeling towards him in the end. But alas, only God would know the truth.


As far as the woman in Texas is concerned, I actually have to say I believe her testimony that she found a new life with Christ and was truly sorry for what she did. I think she stabbed a couple with an ice pick although I don't remember exactly what her crime was. However her turning to Christ was obviously not enough to save her, and it certainly doesn't lessen the crime that she did commit...taking the lives of people, regardless of whether she was truly sorry or not. So I believe her sincerity in becoming Christian, but I also feel her punishment was just.

[Per Sempre]

I believe all sins to be forgiven,but about the "sorry" thing,I really don't think if you commited such a terrible crime,you wouldn't be sorry for sinning against God. If you know what I mean.

[inkspot]

I believe all sins to be forgiven,but about the "sorry" thing,I really don't think if you commited such a terrible crime,you wouldn't be sorry for sinning against God. If you know what I mean.
Not sure I do know what you mean. Did you mean a person who did something that bad would have to be sorry for it, just because it was so bad?

I like what PoTW said: there is still the offer of forgiveness, no matter how bad the sin, but the willingness to accept the offer dies a little bit each time you ignore it and keep on sinning, so eventually, you have no desire for forgiveness.

In the Space Trilogy, in That Hideous Strength, that poor little guy in the pincenez, is it Frost? At the end he locks himself into a burning building with no hope of escape, and at that moment realizes God would still save his eternal soul ... but he has lived so long in denial that such a soul exists, he cannot reach out for the help God offers. It is chilling!!!

[ForgivenAcceptedPure]

there is no sin bad enough that God won't forgive it. in the Bible is says that all sins are equal in Gods eyes, so if i lie, and then someone else murders someone, in society the second seems much bigger, but to God, they all the same. No matter what you do, God will forgive you, just ask for forgiveness. He is a God of love and forgiveness, and He loves you no matter what you do, there is nothing you can do to make God love you less.

[Aslan's Son]

there is no sin bad enough that God won't forgive it. in the Bible is says that all sins are equal in Gods eyes, so if i lie, and then someone else murders someone, in society the second seems much bigger, but to God, they all the same. No matter what you do, God will forgive you, just ask for forgiveness. He is a God of love and forgiveness, and He loves you no matter what you do, there is nothing you can do to make God love you less.

Actually there is an unforgiveable sin--blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. As to how one does that, I don't wish to know.

[Solya]

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit sounded familiar, so I looked it up: http://preacherstudy.com/blasph.html

Basically, if I understood it correctly, it condemns willful sinning after enlightenment brought on by God. When you call the truth found in the enlightenment the work of Satan you commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It's very logical that such a sin is unforgiveable because you actually have seen the truth in enlightenment but don't want to attribute it to God as God's work.

Hm, I think that's the only unforgiveable sin I can see in life too. You'll be forgiven for everything except this, but accepting the offer for forgiveness is sometimes a very hard thing to do. I think we all desire forgiveness for our sins deep down inside, but that it takes a lot of strength and willpower to actually ask forgiveness. It's so much easier at that moment to just keep on sinning. :rolleyes: Sinning doesn't require that you see your soul as it is, but asking forgiveness does. Asking forgiveness is very confrontational.

[inkspot]

I think Solya has hit on it -- that "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" deal is, I think, when the Holy Spirit opens your eyes to the truth of God's forgiveness, and you refuse to accept it because you want to go on with your sinful ways ... But in a way, that is unforgivable because of your own heart: you are refusing to accept forgiveness.

[ForgivenAcceptedPure]

i agree with that, it is soo hard to ask for forgiveness, and when you are forgiven, to accept the fact that for whatever sin you commited, that someone is willing to forgive you.
Or like how Jesus died on the cross to save us and to forgive our sins, it is hard to accept the fact that someone loves us so much that He would die for us. but it is amazing once you do accept it.

[msdavidwenham]

Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is the only unforgivable sin. It is knowing the Holy Ghost exist then denying the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is like your inner voice which God had given you when you have choices placed before you. When you accept the Holy Ghost into your life you believe. This is one of the biggest gift the God as offer his children. But if peple has not accepted God and his Son into their lives then they don't know about the Holy Ghost so they are not commenting blasphemy. To comment blasphemy you have to have accepted the Holy Ghost into your life.

The Bible says that all other sins are forgivable and the even means mass murder, so people like Jim Jones (Jonestown) will be forgiven if they ask for forgiveness at the second coming.