Noah's Ark

[~Narnia~]

Hello.

Well I am a new member here, and I have been reading the threads on these boards for quite a while now, it never occured that I could make a name! Anyway, my reason for starting this is to act your opinion of the article I wrote in my spare time to show a non-believer of the whole Noah's Ark thing that it was actually true (can't think of anyway else to put it) Also, I would like to know what YOU think about the topic, any comments appriciated. Most of the things in the article have refrences to the KJV Bible, and some of the things I learned from my teacher, who has a really interesting way of looking at things. Enjoy!


First off I would like to say that I throughly enjoy your website, and find it quiet interesting. I have a question, or more so, some answers concerning your "Noah’s Ark" article.

SIZE OF THE ARK:

In Genesis 6:15 it says, "And in this fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits." First of all in this verse God was talking to Noah. Basically he was telling him the exact measurements of the ark. To fully understand the measurements you would need to know how long a "cubit" is. By definition it is from the tip of the middle finger to the elbow. This would be in today’s measurements, about three feet, making the ark 900 feet by 150 feet by 90 feet. But if you read Genesis 6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days..." it sounds like there were giants. You may think this odd, and I for one did when I first read it. Please listen first though.

Have you ever heard of the canopy theory? This states that there was a layer of water over the earth. Well this makes since to me because in Genesis 7:11 "....the same day were the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened." Imagine that "fountains of the great deep" was a layer of water under the earth (which has been proven) and that when this water spouted up it caused a great earthquake splitting the one large continent into 7 small ones. As for the "window of heaven" imagine that as the canopy. Well there being a layer of water all around the earth, protecting us from ultraviolet rays and allowing to live longer. My point. If we were able to live longer, and were protected from ultraviolet rays, wouldn’t we get bigger? Along with everything else in the world explaining how wholly mammoths are elephants and so forth. The reason for telling you all this is if the people were bigger (Genesis 6:4) then wouldn’t the distance of a "cubit" be bigger too?

ANIMALS

In your article you stated:

Let's leave out the fish, as they can't drown.

Bugs and plants - let 'em drown.

So, we're left with the birds, reptiles, and mammals.



I beg to differ. In Genesis 6:19-20 "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of ever sort shall come thee, to keep them alive." Before I get into these, let me explain the "clean animals and the birds. In Genesis 7:2-3 "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female and of the beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female to keep the seed alive upon the face of all the earth." In the Bible a "clean" animal doesn't consists of animals such as pigs, bears, vultures and raptors that can eat (and thrive) on decaying flesh. Predatory animals such as wolves, lions, leopards and cheetahs most often prey on the weakest (and at times the diseased) in animal herds. Basically there aren’t more than I think it was 100 "clean" animals, but overall not very many. Anyway, he was told to take seven of these. Why you may ask? For sacrifice. Noah also told to take 7 of the "fowls of the air" for sacrifice also. Now that that has been said, We can get back to Genesis 6:19-20. In these verses Noah was told to take two of "every creeping thing that creepth along the earth." This means to me that the fish were excluded, since they don’t creep on the earth as far as I know, but bugs do. Think about it, if Noah didn’t take bugs, how did we get all the bugs today? Now as for the cramped ark with so many animals, Noah didn’t talk the millions of species of dogs, for instance, there are today. There was only one species of dog, one species of cat and so forth. The ones we have to day? Created by mutations. Now, as for the taking care of all the animals, I personally think that most of these animals were in a hibernation state occurring to the calendar. In Genesis 8:13 is says "...in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the water dried up from off the earth:.." Well if the water were gone by January, that would mean the flood must have been mostly in the later months of hibernation. For the other parts, I believe that God put them in a hibernation state.

FOOD AND WATER

As my last and final point, I would first like to start with the food. In Genesis 6:21 it says "And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shall gather it thee; and it shall be for food for thee and for them." This means to me that they were supposed to gather the food. I believe that God helped them some, and if the animals were in hibernation, then they wouldn’t eat as much. As for the water, as I explained earlier in the canopy theory, just imagine that the water of the canopy wasn’t salty. I mean that is possible and it makes more since. Have you ever heard of salty rain?

I have an interesting thought patern to say the least. It may be hard to follow, and please if you find anything wrong or contradictory to the Bible please let me know!

~Narnia~

[Jed of Spare Oom]

I agree with most all of it, but to put it out there for discussion, I have a friend who believes that the whole earth couldn't have been flooded from a scientific perspective that since they couldn't communicate across the globe taht it could have only been there small are. I think that this idea is ludicris since the mountains had to be covered but w/e.

[Neevil]

I love the Flood... we studied it in science some. It really fascinates me. I've always wanted to be an archeologist and go searching for the Ark.

But anyways, what you said sounded pretty good. But wouldn't it be by the Hebrew calendar? I think there are two New Years for it though, agricultural and religious. The agricultural one is in Tishri, I think, which is in September/October. And the religious one in Nisan, which is in March/April. I think the first month referred to would be Nisan, but I may be wrong. So that would make it late March/early April, I think...

That's all I have time to write now, but I will definately be back because I love the Flood and Noah's Ark! I also think its interesting about all the geological stuff that the Flood can explain. Oh, and welcome to the forum Narnia! :D

[LifeMaiden]

I thought there was a PBS special or a show(s) on the history channel which depicted many of the Biblical incidents to be historically accurate and true, including Noah's Ark. It was a long, long time ago when I saw this special about Noah's Ark. I thought the archaeologist working on finding and proving the flood occurred did indeed find some small broken boards of an old boat or ship which was supposed to be bits of the Ark itself. What year, I wonder, did the flood occur?

[tottyfruitty]

i dont really know much about archeolgists finding about it but i do believe that it occured because it was in the Bible and it was one of the main events that happened years ago. i can kind of see where evryone is coming from because it is well impossible to flood the whole world bu t this is God we are talking about. He can do anything forhe did create the whole world in 6 days so yeah i believe it :p .

[LifeMaiden]

I love the Flood... we studied it in science some. It really fascinates me. I've always wanted to be an archeologist and go searching for the Ark.

But anyways, what you said sounded pretty good. But wouldn't it be by the Hebrew calendar? I think there are two New Years for it though, agricultural and religious. The agricultural one is in Tishri, I think, which is in September/October. And the religious one in Nisan, which is in March/April. I think the first month referred to would be Nisan, but I may be wrong. So that would make it late March/early April, I think...

That's all I have time to write now, but I will definately be back because I love the Flood and Noah's Ark! I also think its interesting about all the geological stuff that the Flood can explain. Oh, and welcome to the forum Narnia! :D


Yes but how many actual years ( going by our calendar I guess) did the flood take place?

[Princess Of Darkness]

am i spose to be comfunded? cose i am

[LifeMaiden]

What are you confused about, P?

[Ephinie]

Yes but how many actual years ( going by our calendar I guess) did the flood take place?I don't believe that anyone has yet come up with a satisfactory answer for that. Seven day/young earth creationists tend to think it was not as long ago as older earth/alternate theory creationists. Then there are those who aren't creationists at all, and they have a lot of flood theories involving all sorts of ancient floods. I've seen a lot of A & E and History Channel specials on the flood. Of course, I know from experience that you can't trust what you see on the History Channel or A & E. They have some good stuff at times, but you have to take it all with a grain of salt. Most of those specials I've seen have argued about a more localized phenomenom for the Biblical flood account, and each has a different theory as to when exactly it happened. They've also shown all sorts of diagrams about HOW it happened. I've actually had nightmares from seeing one of those diagrams. Have you see the movie Ice Age 2? You know their valley was flooded in that movie, with the water spilling over the sides? Well, I saw a History Channel special years ago that showed that exact scenario and presented it as a flood theory. Ever since then, I've occasionally had dreams where I'm in a valley just like that... and all of a sudden all this water starts spilling out over the sides... yeah...

[key-G.]

"Using astronomical dating, he says the Flood occured on May 14, 2345 B.C.E. It was, he says, a Sunday." -page 25 of Walking the Bible by Bruce Feiler

[LifeMaiden]

I don't believe that anyone has yet come up with a satisfactory answer for that. Seven day/young earth creationists tend to think it was not as long ago as older earth/alternate theory creationists. Then there are those who aren't creationists at all, and they have a lot of flood theories involving all sorts of ancient floods. I've seen a lot of A & E and History Channel specials on the flood. Of course, I know from experience that you can't trust what you see on the History Channel or A & E. They have some good stuff at times, but you have to take it all with a grain of salt. Most of those specials I've seen have argued about a more localized phenomenom for the Biblical flood account, and each has a different theory as to when exactly it happened. They've also shown all sorts of diagrams about HOW it happened. I've actually had nightmares from seeing one of those diagrams. Have you see the movie Ice Age 2? You know their valley was flooded in that movie, with the water spilling over the sides? Well, I saw a History Channel special years ago that showed that exact scenario and presented it as a flood theory. Ever since then, I've occasionally had dreams where I'm in a valley just like that... and all of a sudden all this water starts spilling out over the sides... yeah...


Interesting :). No never did even see the first Ice Age. When I've had nightmares though, what's really weird is...if I'm running away from something terrifying, I've found refuge in water. Water is the saving grace in most of my dreams...and it's mostly the ocean. Once I had this nightmare about running across this barren desert, and I can't remember why I was running, but I lept over this cliff and dove into the ocean...and the best part is I remember seeing beautiful fish and plant life down there...and then the darn alarm clock woke me up. Whenever I dive into water in my dreams, I'm safe.


Key G just mentioned there the approximate year the flood happened but who knows if we will ever be able to date things historically accurate by Biblical standards.

[Neevil]

I've also heard around 3500 BC for the Flood. But that was from a rather unreliable source, as far as dates go. But it is still the most accepted date among Christian scholars that I have come across. I don't think it can really be determined acurately... It was such a long time ago, and we don't really have dating methods that can acurately date that far back.

[LifeMaiden]

There's carbon dating, and other ways to determine how old things are...it's been done for a long time in determining the age of the earth, rock strata, fossils, and so forth.

[pink-cheetah]

i dont really know much about archeolgists finding about it but i do believe that it occured because it was in the Bible and it was one of the main events that happened years ago. i can kind of see where evryone is coming from because it is well impossible to flood the whole world bu t this is God we are talking about. He can do anything forhe did create the whole world in 6 days so yeah i believe it :p .
sorry if this seems really off-topic, but the days-time thing sort of related it to this...
when you say 6 days, does that go by the 24-hour earth days? my mom and i had an entire debate about that.. did that go by God's "days", saying that a thousand years to Him is like a day to us?

Yes but how many actual years ( going by our calendar I guess) did the flood take place?
that's what got me wondering about that..

[Siren]

I remember reading or hearing that scientists discovered a flood happened in the area around Noah's time. It was localizated, rather then worldwide, since there have been no signs of a massive flood in the New World (which was of course unknown to mankind then). So if there was a flood, it was likely only in one part of the world. Look at the tsunami for instance. Imagine that was back then. People had different views back then, they may have thought if it hit them, it hit everyone.

[pink-cheetah]

i remember readin about different counrties' accounts of a flood- and only one man surviving.. which is noah (i assume)

[Neevil]

There's carbon dating, and other ways to determine how old things are...it's been done for a long time in determining the age of the earth, rock strata, fossils, and so forth.
Yes, but carbin dating isn't very acurate. And the farther back you go, the more inacurate it becomes. I was going to write a big long thing about it but I kept getting interupted... I can write more about it another time if you want but I'm going away this week so that won't be for a few days...

I remember reading or hearing that scientists discovered a flood happened in the area around Noah's time. It was localizated, rather then worldwide, since there have been no signs of a massive flood in the New World (which was of course unknown to mankind then). So if there was a flood, it was likely only in one part of the world. Look at the tsunami for instance. Imagine that was back then. People had different views back then, they may have thought if it hit them, it hit everyone.
I have read that actually, almost every civilization has some sort of story of a large flood. Not just around the Middle East, but all over the world. Since these people were very far apart from one another, and it is nearly impossible they could have communicated, it is probable that a worldwide flood did take place. Also, there is possible evidence for a massive flood in the New World--the Grand Canyon.

[Ephinie]

Yes, but carbin dating isn't very acurate. And the farther back you go, the more inacurate it becomes. I was going to write a big long thing about it but I kept getting interupted... I can write more about it another time if you want but I'm going away this week so that won't be for a few days...Carbon dating has been unjustly villified by certain groups in Christian communities. It is not the end all of dating, nor is it is 100% accurate. However, scientificially speaking, it IS a very useful tool; and it is one of the more reliable dating methods. Its accuracy does stretch back pretty far, though I forget offhand exactly how far back it can be considered reliable. It's a long enough period for us to consider it useful in dating something like the flood, though, if there were actually some object TO date that we could say with certainty was from that period. The problem with dating something, specifically, like a world wide flood is that how are we supposed to know the object being dated was from the right flood? Massive floods have happened several times. Say we find a boat that we think pretty much matches the description of the ark, for example. We date it. That's fine, and the ark as described in the Bible is pretty distinctive in form and function. Yet, there would still be the possibility that it isn't the ark of scripture at all, but a similar structure from a different, localized flood. And, as of yet, no one has found the ark or any artifact that we can be sure came from the Biblical flood period. Sure, there are a few candidates for the ark; but those that are suspected still haven't been examined closely enough to come up with anything other than theory.


I have read that actually, almost every civilization has some sort of story of a large flood. Not just around the Middle East, but all over the world. Since these people were very far apart from one another, and it is nearly impossible they could have communicated, it is probable that a worldwide flood did take place. Also, there is possible evidence for a massive flood in the New World--the Grand Canyon.Yes, I've also read that almost every civilization has some sort of a large flood story. I've even read several such flood stories in literature classes and stuff. That is a pretty good indicator that a world-wide flood did take place. Of course, there is always the possibility that every civilization has encountered a huge, though localized, flood at some point or another. In fact, it's highly probable that they have. Floods are like, one of the most common natural disasters. What it comes down to is wether or not you believe the Bible, and if so, how you interpret scripture.

The Grand Canyon specifically could have been made by a flood, but it could have been made by other means as well. It's one of those things that could possibly be an indicator of a world wide flood, but it could also be completely unrelated in any way. Thus, it can't really be entered into "evidence" except as part of a list of correlating factors.

[LifeMaiden]

Why has carbon dating been vilified by some Christians? Is it because it could not be used to 'prove' that certain Biblical events happened during a specific time period?

It can be used fairly accurately from what I learned in many science classes going back several million years.


Is it possible then, that with Noah's Ark, there was not a WORLDWIDE flood but a flood that was regional?

[Ephinie]

Why has carbon dating been vilified by some Christians? Is it because it could not be used to 'prove' that certain Biblical events happened during a specific time period?

It can be used fairly accurately from what I learned in many science classes going back several million years. It's been villified by the Christian community because there is this misperception that carbon dating supports evolution, so therefore it must be wrong. It's also been used to date human remains much farther back than some Christians are willing to admit that humans have been on the earth. One example would be the Kenniwick (sp?) man found out west. His remains were dated at roughly 9,000 years ago, though many Christians hold to the view that it is unBiblical to believe humans have been on the earth for more than 5,000 or 6,000 years at the most. (That specific example may not be a very good one, because even secular evolutionists who have nothing to do with Christianity are in contention about it. The reason is that they don't believe man was in the Americas that early, but even they won't dismiss the carbon date as being accurate.)

Of course, the problem with carbon dating indicating very old dates for both human and other remains is only relevant to seven-day, young-earth advocates. So, I'm not quite sure WHY the Christian community in general has taken issue with it. I can only guess that the young-earthers are more wide-spread than those who are not.

I, personally, had never heard anything positive about carbon dating until after I came to college. All I had heard of it was of the unreliability and how the fact that it dated things as being too old was proof of its error. But, I was given a more balanced view of it after speaking with several professors (all of whom are Pentacostal good ole boys) who assured me it was one of the more reliable dating methods. As I'm not a scientist myself, nor have I studied carbon dating extensively, I'm more inclined to take what professors say on authority than what pastors say in regard to this issue.

And no, carbon dating is not flawless. NOTHING is flawless. It has been proven again and again, though, as being very reliable. I don't have any specific examples at the moment, but there have been tests where other corroborating factors verfied the carbon dates on certain things.


Is it possible then, that with Noah's Ark, there was not a WORLDWIDE flood but a flood that was regional?Yes, I think that is possible. I don't, however, know enough about that story and its place and the language used in scripture to be able to be certain that saying it was a regional flood would be unscriptural or not, though. Off-hand, the main problem I would have with saying it was only a regional flood would be the whole rainbow promise thing. You know, where God says he won't destroy the earth again by sending a flood? God doesn't break his promises, ever. There have been SEVERAL very large regional floods all throughout history, so if the Biblical flood was only a regional flood... wouldn't that mean that God had broken his promise? However, if it was actually a world wide flood, then yeah... there's never been another one of those since. I haven't read that story in quite a while, though, so I could be missing something.

[she-elfwarrior19]

I dont ever believe the scientific explanations. Like the big bang theory,cave men, how we are from monkeys, and all that. I believe Gods word, and everything in the bible. I have this bible book, and it has a picture of a gigantic arc stuck in a certain mountain, someone took this picture. Its quite interesting, because it really looks like the arc, but who knows maybe it is maybe it isnt, but i dont think they would lie about a picture. Anyway..God did flood the whole earth and promised us he would never do so again.

[Neevil]

I haven't been on here in soooo long.... I still haven't looked at the carbon dating stuff. I'm such a bad person... lol. I will (eventually...) do it, though. I read some stuff on Noah's Ark. Apparently, there are satilite pictures of what appeared to be a boat shaped object on Mt. Arrarat. Several expiditions have been launched, but I don't think anyone has hard cold proof that it is the ark. With more research, it could be determined, but Mt. Ararat is in one of the most hostile and dangerous places in the world right now, especially hostile towards Christians. So, it is unlikely that anything helpful will happen in the near future.

I dont ever believe the scientific explanations. Like the big bang theory,cave men, how we are from monkeys, and all that. I believe Gods word, and everything in the bible. I have this bible book, and it has a picture of a gigantic arc stuck in a certain mountain, someone took this picture. Its quite interesting, because it really looks like the arc, but who knows maybe it is maybe it isnt, but i dont think they would lie about a picture. Anyway..God did flood the whole earth and promised us he would never do so again.

But science is awesome! If the Bible really is true, and God exists, and He created the earth, don't you think that there would be some evidence of it? If something is true, it can be supported by other things. Of course there is evidence of it! Evolutionists and Creationists look at basically the same data, but they just have two different ways that they interpret it. We just have to decide which view has the most faults, or which is more correct... Although, science isn't perfect and has many flaws. I think the closest conclusion we can come to about God, through science, is that the earth was created by someone or something, and that someone or something is still involved in keeping the earth the way it is.

[Solya]

I prefer to mix evolutionism and creationism because I believe that they work together rather than against each other. Evolutionists miss the cause for the evolution, whereas creationists miss the evidence of the cause. Through working together they might perhaps come to realise that science is an important way of proving the ultimate existence of God. :) I have come to the conclusion that God was the one who set evolution in motion and who maintains evolution until this very day. Scientists have never been able to prove this, but they cannot disprove it either because they simply have no other possible cause of evolution.

As for the word of God in the Bible. I have always seen the Bible as a sequence of facts/stories which should not be taken literally into the extreme sense of the word. The beginning of Genesis basically tells the tale of evolution in seven days and it is this way because seven is one of the world's most holiest numbers. It doesn't mean that the creation of our planet happened in seven days as well... it is a symbolic notion of the perfectness of God's creation to me, and nothing else...

[Aslan's Son]

I haven't been on here in soooo long.... I still haven't looked at the carbon dating stuff. I'm such a bad person... lol. I will (eventually...) do it, though. I read some stuff on Noah's Ark. Apparently, there are satilite pictures of what appeared to be a boat shaped object on Mt. Arrarat. Several expiditions have been launched, but I don't think anyone has hard cold proof that it is the ark. With more research, it could be determined, but Mt. Ararat is in one of the most hostile and dangerous places in the world right now, especially hostile towards Christians. So, it is unlikely that anything helpful will happen in the near future.


Yeah, I saw a program on History Channel about that. I believe the government calls the object the "Ararat Anomele (sp?)." There's been people who've supposedly seen the ark (one guy actually claimed to have actually been inside the ruins of it), but there's no solid proof to back up their stories. Currently, Turkey has closed off all expeditions to Mount Ararat, so yeah, there's no chance to look into the subject further for a while.