Harry Potter and the Bible/Who agrees with me? [Archive] - The Dancing Lawn

GrayCloak

03-14-2005, 01:53 AM

Interesting articles DoLW; Thanks for posting the links. I've skimmed them all and intend to read them over again when I have more time. But they did have some good things to say.

I've read alot into the occult, especially when I was younger, and actually know more then I should, which in fact is why I find the 'magic' in Harry Potter to be harmless. It really doesn't bare any similarities to real occultic practices. Their 'magic' is more or less a substitude for technology, and when I read the books overall they reminded me of nothing more then tales of British school children off at boarding school. In a way it reminds me of the whole 'Problem with Pokemon' thing that Christians were up in arms about years ago.

I find the Harry Potter books much more dangerous on a simplistic level. None of the characters seem to have any morals, and Harry is constantly rewarded for bad behavior, breaking school rules, and basically doing as he feels. Good, is good, not because of overall standards but because the auther says it is. There seems to be no basis to thier morality, just some things are acceptable and some are not. 'Love' seems to hold some power; but how and why? The last book especially, was found wanting in the 'spiritual' realm. I thought the supject of death was handled really poorly.

One last comment: I swear then I'm done preaching!

I believe that the 'magic' of Gandalf and Harry Potter differ in thier sole oriantation. Gandalf is a Auinor (SP?) esentially an angel send from God. His powers are given him by the divine; in many ways Gandalf mimics the prophets of biblical times. Harry Potter, however, must learn his magic. Yes, it is a natural talent, but it is also his talent. Rowling leaves out why some people have this gift and others don't; they just have it and use it for thier own advantage, prosperity, ect.

This said, I've read all the books, seen all the movies, and have been reprimanded by more than one of my brothers in Christ for it. I wouldn't discougare any kid from reading them, because I've enjoyed them for what they are. (Well the early ones anyway...Like Aragorn said, the later ones have some pretty course language.) I hold them, however, in a compleatly different genre then either Tolkien, or Lewis.

tgraveline

03-14-2005, 02:30 AM

Very interesting points there. Both DoLW and Gray have some good points, but DOLW i was only referring to the part where you said before about people being more suseptiable or something to things like that. I wasn't meaning it as in not strong or whatever, a weakness in you not necessarily beliefswise, but personality i think is a better term.

Gray that is interesting, because i do find it like their own technology. Yet you say Gandalf is given his powers by a divine influence, i'm guessing you have this info from the silmarillion, or did you just read between the lines of LOTR and the hobbit? I don't remember reading that at all. The only problem with that arguement though would be like if god gave saruman those powers too, why would have done it in the first place, but then we go into the argument of lucifer the fallen angels and why god does what, totally different subject matter.

Hmm, i don't really remember the language being that bad in the other books, i mean the kids say hell or something, maybe like ass or something else like that, but really most people do end up saying words like that. I lasted until like college with not saying more curse words than i could count on one hand, but now its whatever, lol. Though its not a normal thing for me. It could also be explained in the fact that they are growing up and exploring their own language, just look at kids today.

I have heard the comments about how he is rewarded for breaking rules and stuff too. That isn't really the picture she is painting, she rewards judgement based on circumstances, because people today are so worried about following rules people end up dieing now. Why else would we have all these stupid shows on tv like, E.R. House md, and stuff like that, based on events where people may or may not die because proper protocal is not followed. I think what she is painting there is the fact that people have bound themselves in chains and won't act out of pure spirit as much as they use to.

tg

Smog

03-14-2005, 01:11 PM

I don't have problems with the "occultism" in the books because it is not really occultism. So far Harry hasn't sacrificed any virgins to belzabub, he hasn't drunken the blood of an animal and he hasn't done any other occultist things (I could say what the other things are, but this is a family friendly site). I agree with Gray that the main problems is that Harry is atonamous, doing what he feels like woth no regard for the rules.

(Also most of the time if Harry had obeyed the rules he wouldn't get into trouble)

waterhogboy

03-14-2005, 01:28 PM

That's true but the main problem people I know have against it is that it makes magic appealing. In a sense the magic in the books is not bad or evil but there are loads of kids reading these books. I had some friends who afew years ago started looking into wikka and witchcraft, not wholly because of the influence of Harry Potter, but definately thanks to it.
The main problem is that alot of the secular world doesn't really think magic actually exists - that its just found in stories. In actual fact - it is real and very dangerous and in making it attractive to young children, it could entice them into things they may not have considered otherwise. I can still remember hoping to get an envelope from Hogwarts through the post the July before I started high school. (I was young!!! and btw it never came :()
I myself don't have a problem with the books. I love them and can't wait for the next film to come out, but alot of families at my church have stopped their kids from reading them. It's a personal choice of whether you feel that you can understand that, although it is just a story, the subjects talked about are real and potentially dangerous.

I'mbigger/you'reolder

03-14-2005, 02:36 PM

I know that if I was a parent, and my kids wanted to read them, I'd make sure that they were okay first. After they read them, I'd want to talk to them about it to see what they thought of all the "witchcraft". A lot of parents, I think, quickly assume that their kids aren't mature enough to handle books like that simply because of their age.

pacifiquesea

03-14-2005, 02:57 PM

Half of Harry's rule breaking is in the pursuit of good, the other half is his curiousity or teenage tendencies toward selfishness or what have you, but the thing is - he's rewarded for fighting evil, essentially. He may have gotten away with breaking the rules in other cases, but you can't say that he's being rewarded for that. When I'm taking care of kids, I have to decide when to punish and when to let things slide - if I called a time out every time a kid misbehaved, they'd be sitting in the corner all day. Harry ends up in detention sometimes, he doesn't get away with everything. And if I may venture to guess, Dumbledore probably realizes that Harry, being the object of very powerful evil hatred, has somewhat of a higher purpose and the real problems that are arising can hardly be compared to any trouble he might experience sneaking out in the corridors at night. And how many people do you know who play by the rules all of the time? I agree with tg - it's based upon circumstances and judgement.

Even if there is nothing occultic in the books - which I doubt there is, Gray you probably know more about it than me - waterhogboy still makes a good point that it does make magic appealing, which is what I was saying before. It can be a dangerous gateway for people who are prone to that sort of temptation. But for me and millions of others, the books are harmless enjoyable stories. You have to exercise your judgement, and it's unfair for a Christian to assume that just because they can't read it that nobody else should too. It's sort of a meat sacrificed to idols thing.

Smog

03-14-2005, 03:19 PM

One question, does the end justify the means?
Are we allowed to break God's law in order for the greater good?
Please post back on your thoughts about these questions.

(By the way Paci, nice job on the "meat sacrificed to idols." We are not to bind the conscience of men. Nice one!)

Monkeh

03-14-2005, 03:20 PM

(Also most of the time if Harry had obeyed the rules he wouldn't get into trouble)

Alot of the time, If harry hadn't broken the rules, alot of people would now be dead. Including himself.

Smog

03-14-2005, 03:27 PM

Well, if he had told the truth they wouldn't...

Warrior-Poet51088

03-14-2005, 03:55 PM

And if I may venture to guess, Dumbledore probably realizes that Harry, being the object of very powerful evil hatred, has somewhat of a higher purpose and the real problems that are arising can hardly be compared to any trouble he might experience sneaking out in the corridors at night. And how many people do you know who play by the rules all of the time?

I'm with Smog on this one: Your statements about Harry having a "higher purpose" sound very Machiavellian, which can be a bad thing (Machiavelli wrote a book on how to gain, and then maintain, control of a nation, and at the very beginning, he sets as a constant the fact that there is no God. By the end, Machiavelli proposes that the Prince must be above the law in order for the state to function).

Also, it sounds like you were saying that simply if some people don't play by the rules, that makes it right to break the rules. This doesn't make sense. Just because all of mankind has broken God's Law doesn't mean that it's OK to do so.

Please correct me if I misinterpreted your post!

GrayCloak

03-14-2005, 04:20 PM

On a comment made by Tg:

To clarify Gandalf; he's a Maia, or a lessar Valar (see the sil, and the Istari paper) The Valar, are Ainor, who are angles send down to govern Arda. As for Saurmon; in my opinon he's a fallen angel. When Gandalf and he meet in TT he's twisted and weak, and has to submit to Gandalf the White who's 'Saurumon as he should have been'. I'm not trying to go off topic or anything, I just wanted to clarify the differences between HP magic and that of Gandalf in LOTR.

On rule breaking: I agree with Aragorn and Smog. And again would like to restate my eariler point that in the HP world there are no foundations for an ultimate nature of good. So whatever Harry does, it's not as if he was following some 'greater' purpose, because he has nothing more to base that off of besides his own autonomy.

pacifiquesea

03-14-2005, 04:44 PM

I'm not saying that the assumption of Harry's higher purpose is justified or anti-Machiavellian (I am familiar with Machiavelli). He does get special treatment, and he doesn't always have to pay the consequences, but what I'm trying to say is that in life, people do get away with things, even *gasp* Christians. I'm also not saying that rules don't apply to certain people, but I *am* saying that this is sometimes how the world operates. It's realistic (you know, as much as a book filled with magic can be.)
Sorry - I'm really very terrible at expressing my ideas sometimes, my brain rarely works in a logical manner. :)
For Christians, no of course not, the end does not justify the means. But this is not a Christian work, and we can't expect it to be. You can't expect non-Christians to act like Christians, it's absurdity to do so. But we can still enjoy the books without thinking that the rules don't apply to us.

Dernhelm

03-14-2005, 05:18 PM

Alot of the time, If harry hadn't broken the rules, alot of people would now be dead. Including himself.
I think that is the problem. It teaches you to think that breaking the rules is good. I'm not saying that it's wrong to read them; but I woudn't recomend them to anyone who might be influenced by that.

pacifiquesea

03-14-2005, 05:21 PM

Precisely - just like the magic, if you're going to be tempted to run amok... amuk....amooooooo..
*ahem*
and break the rules, if you're going to be so easily influenced, then you shouldn't read it. Good call.

Smog

03-14-2005, 07:25 PM

If you read fictional books about magic and then try to mimic them you have some serious problems.

(Although most of those problems go away with two pink pills, four green pills and about a have-a-dozen of the blue ones ;))

pacifiquesea

03-14-2005, 08:32 PM

(Although most of those problems go away with two pink pills, four green pills and about a have-a-dozen of the blue ones ;))

Do we need to have an intervention? I think we do. :)

tgraveline

03-14-2005, 09:44 PM

ha ha ha,

thanks gray for the info on gandalf and stuff.

Pac, i understand you well enough too. So it really is a case by case thing for people. If you are easily swayed and become obsessive compulisive with wanting to do magic then yeah don't read them, lol.

So really from seeing both of this, i still see it as being just a book. Its not influencing me in any way, though i do wish i could go to hogwarts and stuff, but thats just pure childish fantasy.

oh and someone said something about magic being appealing, yeah my mom said that too. Though she really was just thinking that if it becomes too appealing it could cause people to look into that stuff, so yeah, i guess you really just have to guard yourself in what you do and how you take things in.

tg

Smog

03-15-2005, 12:46 AM

Do we need to have an intervention? I think we do. :)

What? Intervention?!? That is the stupidist thing I have ever...
*Pops small paper cup containing pills*
...Dude what were we talking about... ...Wow my hands are so big, and they can touch everything... ...but themsleves...

*Makes futile attempt to touch hands together*

But man, like on the issue with the kid with glasses, it doesn't really matter because...

*Picks up guitar and starts to sing*

"...Come on people now, smile on your brother everybody get together, and try to love one another right now..."

I'mbigger/you'reolder

03-15-2005, 01:17 AM

This is really in response to Smog's earlier questions that really were never answered. I thought about starting a separate thread somewhere else for this, being that this is a little of topic, but I couldn't find an appropriate spot. So, if this discussion needs further...well...discussion, I'd be completely up for starting another thread.

Now, I am not a theologian or a preacher or anything more than just a dedicated Christian. So, when having a serving of my theological opinion, always add a grain of salt :D .

Do the ends justify the means? That's a really broad question. Generally, I would say "no". You can't say that sin is okay in any circumstance. Yet I'm sure any of us could think of an extreme situation where that principle can seem very hazy (I really hate those hypothetical situations that people come up with all the time in order to morally confuse us [i.e. would you kill your best friend to save a million people?]. My response is always "when I'm in that situation, I'll give you an answer"). Sin can't be good, that's what makes it sin. I do, however, like the phrase from Reliant K's new song "Let it all out" which goes "the end will justify the pain it took to get us there". I pretty much agree with that statement. It's more in reference to God's putting us through trials to teach us lessons, but you can definitely see the similarities.

Smog

03-16-2005, 08:28 PM

The problem is that the "end" (also put as the greater good) is ALWAYS (from a Christian perspective) about God's glory. We glorify God by obeying his law, repenting when we sin and being humble toward others (Michiah said "He has shown thee, oh man what is good and what the LORD doth require of thee. Doing justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with God and Man.) So sinning never glorifys God and therefore there can be no justification for it.

In terms of that hypothetical question, Jesus said "Greater love hath no man than this; that he lay down his life for a friend."

jennyjenjen56

03-23-2005, 05:15 PM

find the Harry Potter books much more dangerous on a simplistic level. None of the characters seem to have any morals, and Harry is constantly rewarded for bad behavior, breaking school rules, and basically doing as he feels. Good, is good, not because of overall standards but because the auther says it is. There seems to be no basis to thier morality, just some things are acceptable and some are not. 'Love' seems to hold some power; but how and why? The last book especially, was found wanting in the 'spiritual' realm. I thought the supject of death was handled really poorly.

I think Harry does have morals, He values life, and loyalty, and fighting for what you believe in. And if you look at the rules he brakes, most of them are trivial and frankly , several times if harry had told the truth to adults, things would have been better, he is learning lessons. And while the books haven't shown a basis for a morality, the series isn't over yet.
Also most of the time when Harry breaks the rules, its for a higher purpose. I can only think of a few times when harry broke the rules for a sort of personal gain. That was in the first year when he went to fight draco, and to help hagrid get rid of norbert *sniggers*. Also in the 4th year to hear what the golden egg had to say, but that was more of a device of the author to give you some interesting iformation that has to do with the mystery at hand. And in the 5th book ,yeah harry is angry and harry doesn't always act right. But this is also a book series about characters, flawed characters. I mean Harry wouldn't be realistic if he was perfect and always obeyed the rules, wow that would be boring. there would be no story, and voldy would have triumphed a long time ago. Harry has learned lessons, and if he hasn't they should be more obvious to the reader. He's a kid he makes mistakes, and if parents are stupid enough to just let their kids blindly read anything, well they were asking for it, and harry potter would not be the reason for their childs behavior. As for kids who look into witch craft because of harry potter, they will be sorely dissapointed to find out brooms, wands, and snitches don't exsist.

also as for the getting into trouble and breaking the rules stuff.
Any of you read the Mandie Shaw series? Dang she runs away in the books, she breaks the rules a lot in pursuit of a mystery. She isn't perfect. Also remember its a story, if someone isn't mature enough to determine between fantasy and reality, then they should not be aloud to watch tv, movies, listen to music, or read books. They will be swayed at every turn to believe something else.
Wow that got long! lol!!!!!

Clearly I really like Harry potter. I've read them way to many times. If Im board and don't have new book around, or have to big of a fine at the library, like now, and don't have the money for a new book, I pick up harry. Their fun, entertaining, and easy to read. I love em! :)

jennyjenjen56

03-23-2005, 05:18 PM

Is it right to sin? No, but harry is human. So is he going to sin? Yes. Should he learn from his mistakes, yes. But frankly breaking a few rules to save someone, that were clearly not put their to prevent you from saving a life, but for another reason , is not a sin. There are gray areas in life, its not all black and white, not all wrong or right. Sometimes its hard to find the right answer and once again its a book.

Warrior-Poet51088

03-23-2005, 07:11 PM

I see what you're saying, jennyjenjen56, but that's just the problem! The vast majority of parents don't know what their children are reading. So, the kid reads the books, sees Harry (who is the hero, and therefore the one everyone wants to imitate) and assumes that he should act like Harry does.

pacifiquesea

03-23-2005, 08:06 PM

GrayCloak

03-23-2005, 11:17 PM

You have to give most kids a *little* more credit than that. Would you have read that book at a young age and thought "The rules must not apply to me either. Hurk hurk." I mean, they can separate themselves from the main character.

Well not directly no, but it's still an influence on the child in question. We're all influenced by what we perceive in the world around us, and need to be wary of what we submit ourselves (and our children, younger sibling ect) to. If there's something contradictory to what you believe in what your kid is reading, you either have to stop the child from reading the book, or explain to them why what happened was wrong, and the way it should have been handled.

My eight year old brother loves the Harry Potter movies, which is fine by my parents, because he knows the difference between reality and fantasy, and is always right beside me on the couch yelling at Harry for some of the things he does.

I feel the same with the books as when I first posted on this topic. But I understand what I don't like in the HP series, why I don't like it, and can enjoy the books despite it.

-Jenny, I hope that some moral basis is going to be included in the next two books, because I thought that book 5 would have been a great place in put it in, and was disapointed when there wasn't anything mentioned.

As for kids who look into witch craft because of harry potter, they will be sorely dissapointed to find out brooms, wands, and snitches don't exsist.

Well, actually wands are part of pagan practices. For 'witchcraft' they are often made of hazel or oak-wood in classic mythologies. (Usually going back to the Celt and Druids) and brooms were supposedly used as well, though to add to my previous point about Harry Potter not being occultic, when a witch rides a broom, it's with the bristled end forwards and a candle placed inside the twigs. A black cat usually sits up front as well.

But I've never read about snitches. ;)

jennyjenjen56

03-24-2005, 12:41 AM

well, while many fantasy witchcraft "ideas" may have developed out of occultic practices, what I ment is, if the kid wants to be like harry, well it doesn't work that way. :)
And I see that there are some things are not perfect but most of it doesn't bother me. The only area that bothers me some is divination. Although a lot of it is shown to be baloney, except for prophecies, which we can't say are bad or good in harry potter because where the prophicies originate from, we aren't told. And the centaure divination, is just like in the narnia books, so frankly I don't take issue with it.
Also I think we don't give kids enough credit, but it also depeneds on how they have been raised. As a child I new the difference between fantasy and reality. And I didn't seek my moral knowledge from anywhere but my parents. Which they taught using biblical standards. I would not have been aloud to read the hp books as a child, nor see the movie. My parents had strict movie rules. So as an adult and as a teenager I have a strong moral base, based in God and in the bible. Reading Harry potter is enjoyable and Ive learned some good things from it. Biblical things, sounds odd right? Well if you have talked to me at all outside of the messageboard, or even on it I guess, you would know that Ive been dealing with some pretty hard times the last few years. Something harry potter helped me get a better understanding of was the fact that God is in control. In the hp universe Rowling is in control of the characters and what happens to them and so on. She knows that harry has to go through all this terrible stuff to get to the climax and point of the series, whatever that is. He has to have things happen and learn certain lessons or he couldn't accomplish whats to happen or handle whats to happen. It's the same with God. He knows the beginning, middle, and all the little details of our journy in life. We can't see it and so it can be hard to handle and deal with things in the now. But if we trust in God, the author, we know that the outcome will be best for us in the end, no matter what. We know that at whatever stage of life, we need to take what we're learning, or going through, and take that and learn it and use it for later. It's a hard concept to learn because hindsite is always 20/20, and we don't understand WHY we have to go through things. For some odd reason harry potter helped me understand that. Because its so clear in spots that he has to go through this to get throu other things. I don't know why it resinated so strongly with me, but I needed to understand that better, and it reminded me of it at a time I needed to be reminded of it.

Wallis

03-24-2005, 04:41 AM

Jennyjenjen,

That was a terrific post! And, a great testimony, too. We can say a prayer of thanks that God touched you at a critical time in your life.

There are things in the Harry Potter books that irk me, but nothing at the religious level. Since this thread is more focused on Harry Potter rubbing Christians as an irritant or the opposite, I'll write no more unless someone asks (perhaps in a different thread).

But it is still fantastic to read where God speaks to us no matter what the medium. And, to know that He is right there for you, thick or thin.

tgraveline

04-11-2005, 11:25 PM

ok, i made a post over at TST, so i'm going to copy and paste it in here too, as its within the same post, that site just had the topic going on longer me thinks. so here yall go too.

Well i tried this whole deal out on my mom. She watched the three movies with me and she really enjoyed them being a pastors wife and all. Her only concern is that it might just not be something for everyone. Mainly if you are too easily influneced by what you watch and stuff you shouldn't see it then. She really enjoyed the movies and being able to spend time with me watching them and regrets there aren't more movies yet for her to watch with me.

tg

waterhogboy

04-13-2005, 10:54 AM

Next ones out in Winter tho - YAY!!!!!

tgraveline

04-13-2005, 01:05 PM

yeah i can't wait at all, lol I told her about that too, so she is waiting for that, but more she is waiting for LWW

tg

inked

04-16-2005, 01:07 AM

For those interested in a positive take on Christianity and Harry Potter, may I suggest www.hogwartsprofessor.com which has some excellent comparisons to CSL/Narnia and JRRT/LOTR and JK Rowling/HP I-V ? I especially recommend the articles on HP and the Inklings and the reference to IS HP a HOBBIT?

Enjoy. :)

Bitter Milton

04-16-2005, 02:06 PM

Very well put Jenny! You have made some great points!

I think that the whole idea that if you read a certain book, watch a certain movie, or play a certain videogame, you will be influenced to perform the actions of the characters is untrue.

Dead Rain

04-16-2005, 02:27 PM

of course, it depends on the individual, but yes. i semi-agree with you Bitter Milton. things will not nessisarily influence people for the worse. yes they will influence people, but not always in a bad way. if that makes any sense.

tgraveline

04-16-2005, 02:56 PM

only thing i've noticed is that i read the whole wheel of time series at once thats out so far. Let me tell you that i had quite the moments there. I would play halo with my buddies and i would be saying blood and ashes!!! stuff like that. I wouldn't even think about it, but yet i would be doing that. Now my friends who had read the books noticed it and helped me. I know one of my buddies had some scary dreams during reading those books, and i remember mine being a little crazy sometimes too.

tg

waterhogboy

04-18-2005, 05:30 PM

Hey tgravelien - you like the wheel of time series?????

legolas

06-05-2005, 11:27 PM

Do ya'll think that Harry Potter can relate to the Bible at all? I know it was not writen to be about the Bible, but could it have anything to do with it???

Kazakhrider

06-06-2005, 12:56 AM

I'm sure it can, if you want to look at it like that. There are lots of books and essays that have been written about the prevalence of Christianity in Harry Potter. And JK Rowling is a Christian who attends the Church of Scotland :) She loves the Narnia books too, so that's a point for her lol

tgraveline

06-06-2005, 02:29 AM

she is a christian? I did not know that.

tg

inkspot

06-06-2005, 11:28 AM

There are a couple threads that discuss this, somehow the subject got into the "Relationships between Narnia and Christianity" thread:
http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showthread.php?t=465&page=3&pp=10
about halfway down that page, I think, and it goes on for pages. Also, check out the thread entitled "Will the Next CS Lewis Please Step Forward," where Harry Potter is also being discussed.

Aslan the Wise one

06-06-2005, 12:23 PM

I think that it has Christan thmes and views in it just as lotr and CON does....

legolas

06-06-2005, 12:31 PM

And JK Rowling is a Christian who attends the Church of Scotland. :) She loves the Narnia books too, so that's a point for her lol

Well, I never new JK Rowling was a christian! Thats so cool! Well, I guess that is proof that Harry Potter does not encourage Witchcraft.
:D

inked

06-06-2005, 05:08 PM

All English literature since the Christianization of Britain has been related to the Bible!

HP DEFINITELY is, but I suggest the same threads as Inkspot listed for my
*ahem* fuller views~ ;) .

she-elfwarrior19

06-06-2005, 06:52 PM

whoa she's a christian? whoa i never knew that when i was in grade six i wasnt aloud to read HP, so i had to read aniother story. Like the HP think was like a thing where you fill out the anwsers. it was wierd

Hope96

06-06-2005, 08:28 PM

Are you sure that she is a Christian? I've never heard that. I always heard that she was pagan....hence the "promoting witch craft" thing.

holyboy

06-06-2005, 08:46 PM

I read in an interview on CBC.ca (BBC equivelent) that she won't disclose her religion because she fears that if she does that, then we will know what happens at the end of the books. Im attempting to find that interview, so when i do, I'll post it :D

inked

06-06-2005, 09:34 PM

"I believe in God, not magic." In fact, Rowling initially was afraid that if people were aware of her Christian faith, she would give away too much of what's coming in the series. "If I talk too freely about that," she told a Canadian reporter, "I think the intelligent reader - whether ten or sixty [years old] - will be able to guess what's coming in the books."

Michael Nelson, "Fantasia: The Gospel According to C.S. Lewis", THE AMERICAN PROSPECT, volume 13, number 4, February 25, 2002.

The pagan canard is frequently played by unintelligent people, I fear! Along with mispellings of the word magic.... :p .

Kazakhrider

06-06-2005, 09:49 PM

I knew some people who refuse to read the books because they are to do with "witchcraft" :rolleyes: . I got some of these people to at least TRY the books to see for themselves, and they were quite surprised. Even my mum, who is a devout Christian, said that they weren't what she expected, and she enjoyed them.

legolas

06-06-2005, 10:32 PM

JK Rowling is a very interesting person I must say! If she is afraid that her religeon will spoil some of the other books then there must be some christianity in those books!

waterhogboy

06-07-2005, 07:03 AM

Hey guys - JK Rowling may attend church, but youve got to remember that in Britain, alot of people 'go to church' who arent Christians at all. Its a different situation to the states.

Kazakhrider

06-07-2005, 08:29 AM

True (but I don't live in the US ;) ). Perhaps you're talking more about nominal Christians, or people who attend church at Easter or Christmas only? I don't think that makes people any less Christian if that's what they are :) . I don't attend church regularly and I consider myself Christian.

*clears throat*

Last year, Rowling told a Canadian reporter that she is a Christian and that this "seems to offend the religious right far worse than if I said I thought there was no God. Every time I've been asked if I believe in God, I've said, 'yes,' because I do. But no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that and, I have to say that does suit me. ... If I talk too freely about that, I think the intelligent reader -- whether 10 or 60 -- will be able to guess what is coming in the books."

Jene Sai

06-07-2005, 12:00 PM

Kazakhrider

06-07-2005, 12:04 PM

That's a really good question -- unfortunately it's late and I'm too sleepy to answer it right now :( , I'll come back tomorrow :)

legolas

06-07-2005, 01:31 PM

CS Lewis and Tolkien were friends and they were both Christians. The LOTR is based on the Bible as are the Cronicles of Narnia. CS Lewis and Tolkien, inspired one another, although, Tolkien did not like the Cronicles of Narnia.

tgraveline

06-07-2005, 03:35 PM

Interesting indeed this bit of information is. Now i stated before i never knew this, and then i wondered if it was just rumor. Now there is some backing to it, but not necessarily proof of it. Now I am only playing Devil's Advocate at the moment, but hear me out. She did not say she was christian, but that she believed in God. That could mean a whole bucket full of things. Not that she is necessarily a Christian, but then someone stated that she attends the church of Scotland i believe is whta it was. Now how do we know that?

Believe me, if i see proof of this, i'll tell people, lol. And if she is and is afraid of how things might turn out in the books that people could figure out. Then we surely know that someone will die, possibly harry. How she will do it, is quite interesting to me now, but i'm holding on these thoughts mainly because of the fact that we do not have actual absolute proof yet.

tg

legolas

06-07-2005, 04:27 PM

Well, for one thing, yes, if she says she beileves in God she may be a Jew, but if, lets just say, HP is based on the Bible, then she would not be a Jew. ( But my reply is changing the subject a bit ;)) If she really ment that her faith would give away the 6-7 books, then she might well be a christian, or think she is one atleast.

she-elfwarrior19

06-07-2005, 04:32 PM

Well even if she is a Cristian that doesnt change my minds about the books

legolas

06-07-2005, 04:48 PM

Well even if she is a Cristian that doesnt change my minds about the books

Do u not like the books?? I mean, do u have some thing against them??

Kazakhrider

06-07-2005, 10:15 PM

It seems some of you wouldn't want to believe that she is Christian anyway even though she said so ;) . All her kids have been baptised as well.

And lots of people do have something against the books.

legolas

06-07-2005, 10:18 PM

If you don't want to believe that she is a christian (if she is) then are you saying that you think that just because the books have witchcraft, that you should judge her, which the bible states not to do? (I can't remember the verse but when I do I'll post it.)

legolas

06-07-2005, 10:35 PM

These are some of the verses:

Matthew 7:1-3

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

inked

06-08-2005, 12:38 AM

Perhaps we should change the subject slightly...
...I was slightly too old to be interested in HP when it came out...
...So maybe you can answer my question? Is HP what Lewis refered to as "baptized fantasy". In other words...are the characters accountable to a moral law above the civil law? Or quite simply to they obey the rules because it is the right thing to do or because they are afraid they will get in trouble?

-JS
That's what I have been contending. I have referred to JK Rowling as an "Inkling out of time" because of it. And it is well argued and supported by John Granger in LOOKING FOR GOD IN HARRY POTTER (SaltRiver/Tyndale, 2004).

It has been difficult to get some people to see this because of their confusion induced by allegations that magic=magick=evil. "Course they argue that Narnia is "different" as is LOTR, but can't quite get that to work. So they fall back on alleged lack of moral values. But that won't hold water any better than a sieve. The moral thing is to do the right thing, not obey the rules like a non-thinking DeathEater. (By the way, what do you think the opposite of a Deatheater is?) As I have tried to demonstrate (without giving too many spoilers to those still reading HP) is comment on JKR's technique for demonstrating growth in understanding and obedience to the moral law. I also think HP is explicitly Christian (but I have an extensive discussion of that over at www.entmoot.com in the Christian Themes in Harry Potter thread, if you are interested).

By the way, you are never too old for a good journey to faerie! :D

Kazakhrider

06-08-2005, 12:55 AM

And when the Narnia books first came out, there was a lot of controversy over what many people perceived to be witchcraft and heathen characters in Lewis' work. Sounds familiar? ;)

waterhogboy

06-08-2005, 09:55 AM

I know I said this before but calling oneself a Christian in Britain really does not mean very much. It can simply mean that you believe in A god, or even cos your grandparents were Christians or your British that makes you a Christian. Well think about it - the devil believes in God!

Now, someone mentioned that here children have been baptised, that probably means christened. Almost all my friends have been christened - once again it means nothing over here...

I know Im being very antagonistic by saying this - and it would be wonderful if she truly was a Christian. I would eat my words, hat and anything else you want me too. But, I really do not think she is a born-again believer...

Kazakhrider

06-08-2005, 10:20 AM

It seems rather presumptious to assume that calling yourself a Christian in Britain means nothing to most people. If people weren't Christian, I seriously doubt that they'd identify themselves as one, or even bother going to church -- especially since only 10 percent of people in the UK are members of a church. JK Rowling has said that she is Christian, goes to church, and believes in God. That seems pretty clear cut to me lol ;) . There's no way for us to know whether she is a "born again" believer, but I don't know how you can assume that she isn't. What makes you think that? (just curious :) )

waterhogboy

06-08-2005, 10:39 AM

Its partly cos I live in Britain and so know about British people quite well. As I mentioned, many of my friends say theyre Christians, have been christened )or baptised if you like) yet are most obviously not Christians.

Of course - as I said in my previous thread - I may well be wrong, and would be glad to assume otherwise. However, I do not think that we can assume she is a fully commited Christian from those few statements...

Kazakhrider

06-08-2005, 10:50 AM

I can see your point :) , but until I hear anything to the contrary I think I can safely assume that she is Some Sort Of Christian lol ;)

legolas

06-08-2005, 10:55 AM

Well, she is a good person, but, I see the points that she may well not be one, there are the facts of what she said (but thats only wut she said), but no-one can really know if someone is a christian, although, sometimes it is obvious, like Billy Gram for example.

Kazakhrider

06-08-2005, 11:57 AM

Ok, I think we've exhausted the possibilities of this topic :D .

Just moving on a bit, what are some particularly Christian themes that you can find in Harry Potter? (apart from the obvious ones, like how they celebrate Christmas ;) )

inked

06-08-2005, 12:15 PM

Okay, go here and read and read and read. If you want to re-discuss, just let me know!

http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=11779

If you don't read, don't complain!

susan19

06-08-2005, 12:37 PM

Do ya'll think that Harry Potter can relate to the Bible at all? I know it was not writen to be about the Bible, but could it have anything to do with it???
I don't think that Harry Potter is good because the Bible say's that wichtcraft I a sin.
SO I don't Like it Because The Bible say's that.

waterhogboy

06-08-2005, 01:15 PM

I can see your point :) , but until I hear anything to the contrary I think I can safely assume that she is Some Sort Of Christian lol ;)

LOL!!! I think thats wrapped that one up nicely. :D Susan - what you said is true and Im inclined to agree with you. But there are many on here that think otherwise and put across a very good case. I mean, thee is magic in LotR and CoN and they most certainly have Christian themes.

legolas

06-08-2005, 01:18 PM

I don't think that Harry Potter is good because the Bible say's that wichtcraft I a sin.
SO I don't Like it Because The Bible say's that.

I have many friends who think that, but, (i'm not trying to change your mind, just stating what i think), they aren't REALLY doing witchcraft, there acting. LOTR and The Cronicles of Narnia, both have alot of magic in them. Yes, LOTR is based on the Bible, that was just an example.

Kazakhrider

06-08-2005, 01:29 PM

It's interesting that nobody ever hears any outcry when Lucy starts casting spells in VODT. She casts three spells, and nearly casts a fourth. Doctor Cornelius also performs magic and enchantments in PC. There are characters who are placed under various charms and spells in all of the Narnia books, and not always by bad/evil characters. Coriakin is a Magician. Aslan himself performs Deep Magic. Are all of these witchcraft too?

legolas

06-08-2005, 01:31 PM

It's interesting that nobody ever hears any outcry when Lucy starts casting spells in VODT. She casts three spells, and nearly casts a fourth. Doctor Cornelius also performs magic and enchantments in PC. There are characters who are placed under various charms and spells in all of the Narnia books, and not always by bad/evil characters. Aslan himself performs Deep Magic. Are all of these witchcraft too?

THANK YOU KAZASKHRIDER! Thats what I was trying to say. Although, I don't remember Lucy casting spells, but i'm sure it happened. :)

Kazakhrider

06-08-2005, 01:33 PM

The Spell for the Refreshment of the Spirit, the spell to hear what people were saying about her behind her back, and the anti-invisibility spell. And she wanted to cast the beautification spell on herself too. This was all in Coriakin's house.

legolas

06-08-2005, 01:34 PM

OK, I barely remember it, it's coming back...

Kazakhrider

06-08-2005, 01:43 PM

Just to be fair, though, it's also worth pointing out that in SC, Jill asks Eustace if they could get into Narnia by drawing circles and doing spells, and Eustace says that Aslan would probably think that was rot.

Then on the other hand, you have things like the Centaurs practicing astrology and telling the future by the stars. Lewis seems healthily open-minded in incorporating different myths and religions. Sometimes I have to remind myself that these stories are fantasy, and they don't have to follow Christianity to a T.

legolas

06-08-2005, 02:02 PM

Mithology and astrology makes stories interesting, and Narnia is still based on the Bible, but yes, since she was not getting her magic from Aslan, that would be bad. All the magic in Narnia either comes from Aslan or the Great Emporer beyond the sea, Aslans Father.

Kazakhrider

06-08-2005, 02:04 PM

I'll be tricky and ask where it comes from in Harry Potter? :D

Edit: Oh, and does the fact that the magic comes from Aslan make it any better in the context of a children's book, despite the Christian themes? (just provoking discussion ;) ). What about all the kids who don't know about or can't see the Christian parallels in the books -- what if they just see the magic? The same could be argued for Harry Potter, too.

legolas

06-08-2005, 02:06 PM

ummm.... somewere???? :rolleyes: :confused:

Ummm.. well, I umm... I.... Ummm... I......

tgraveline

06-08-2005, 02:35 PM

legolas, Now you said that they arne't praticing magic they are acting? I'm assuming you mean the movies, yes we do know its not real, but thats not the point of this whole discussion. Its to see more of what the influence it has i think. This debate is all about how we feel about it, based on how it influences either ourselves or how we feel it will influence others. Now I have always asked people to explain to me the difference from LOTR, and Harry potter. I get very little back in the end.

Now someone mentioned that aslan used deep magic. Deep Magic was refrenced to LOVE. Love was the deep magic, not any form of sorcery.

Now ask for whether or JK is a christian or not, i do take waterhogboys words strongly, but as you have mentioned, we cannot judge her without knowing her. So what i say is, then if you have hope, pray for her and the people influenced by her. The picture i'm getting from this, is that if she is a christian, we will know it in the end books by the themes placed. So I say have hope and pray for the best.

tg

tgraveline

06-08-2005, 02:37 PM

yes waterhogboy, i loved that series. More magic in that than in any other series i've ever read and most definantly not written by a christian, but there is no cursing. I'm a fantasy fan myself, read a lot of the terry brooks stuff also, all of the shannara stuff out so far.

Quite true legolas, tolkien thought that writing allegories was a low form of writing. That is why he did not like it.

tg

waterhogboy

06-08-2005, 03:23 PM

Yep thats true..... We will have to wait and see!!!

Your point Kazakhrider was a interesting one - where does the magic come from? I think in HP - it doesnt come from a specific place, good or bad - it is simply magic as that is how most people understand it.

I think this is the major difference, in LotR and CoN the magic comes from a symbol of Goodness. The Emperor over the Sea in Narnia and (and im not a LotR boffin so correct me if Im wrong) the Numenorian gods in lotR??

I think this shows alot about Rowlings view of magic. She obviously does not see it as coming from the Powers of Darkness, and so sees no problem in writing a story about wizardry. This suggests she may not grasp the concept that maguc is in fact real, but stems from Satan. I tcould explain how she could write a book of that style with Christian connotations - I dunno - wot do u think????

waterhogboy

06-08-2005, 03:29 PM

I wondered cos of your 'blood and ashes' quote.

Most CERTAINLY not written by a Christian. I do hope you skipped the chapter with Rand and Aviendha in the Mountains of Mist in about the 5th book. cos of course - i did.................. :rolleyes:

tgraveline

06-08-2005, 04:26 PM

ha ha ha, i didn't expect it to happen that way in the book. Rand gets around alright, he's more manwhore than anything, ha ha ha ha.

tg

inked

06-08-2005, 04:51 PM

Uh, and you complain about HP being less than Christian, WHB!

PS: DO NOT READ THE SONG OF SOLOMON in the Old Testament. It's the sex book between Ecclesiastes and Isaiah! It might not fit your definition of Christian authorship either! LOL ;) !

tgraveline

06-08-2005, 05:09 PM

ha ha ha, i help out with a youth group, and one time as a joke the kid was asked to look up a verse and be ready to use it, and the punk picked up a verse from there and read it out loud, quite funny stuff, lol.

tg

I still to this day have not read that book, lol waiting on it, lol.

waterhogboy

06-08-2005, 05:23 PM

ha ha ha, i didn't expect it to happen that way in the book. Rand gets around alright, he's more manwhore than anything, ha ha ha ha.

tg

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! Man I needed a good laugh. Cheers tg - i feel alot calmer about my exam tomorrow!!!!!

Nah - saying that he is quite respectable about it all and doesnt go into TOO much detail!!!!!

(Manwhore....... heeheehee - im not gonna be able to read em without laffin anymore!!!!)

tgraveline

06-08-2005, 07:42 PM

Glad i could make light of the situations for you. So how far are you into those books and this will end our distraction from the real meaning of this thread.

tg

Kazakhrider

06-08-2005, 11:04 PM

But it's still magic, nonetheless, in those series. Those characters may be good, but they still produce magic. In Harry Potter, there are forces for good who produce magic as well. Dumbledore is a good, powerful wizard (much like Gandalf in spirit, although in character more eccentric). Like Aslan, he's not safe, but he's good.

But you're right, in Harry Potter, magic is a force both for good and for evil, something that can be manipulated, something that is inherent in the wizard world of nature. In this way it can be paralleled with the Force in Star Wars. With the Force, characters of evil and of good can manipulate objects, people, people's thoughts, can look into the future, etc. But does a rose by any other name smell as sweet? Is this witchcraft too? The story takes place in a galaxy far, far, away, but implicit in that is that it is in the same universe as us. The magical folk in Harry Potter live in dimensions not accessible to normal humans. Star Wars is fantasy, and so is Harry Potter.

The spells in Harry Potter are distinctly of the abracadabra fairytale variety. Rowling describes a few words (derivative from Latin, usually), and bang, the spell happens. Someone turns invisible, or someone turns into a giant canary, or someone grows boils on their face. The process of these spells is not described, other than vague ideas like thinking of the happiest thing you can think of. Other varieties of magic in Harry Potter include Divination (although presumably anyone who likes Narnia wouldn't have a problem with all the centaurs star-gazing in Harry Potter ;) ). In the books, Rowling even clearly states that fortune telling is a load of rubbish, and the Divination teacher is a figure of fun.

When you think about it, much of the magic in Harry Potter is focused on the magical creatures ;) . Centaurs, merpeople, giants, goblins, fairies, pixies, giant spiders, a Basilisk, hippogriffs, Nifflers, unicorns, blast-ended Skrewts (lol!), ghouls, garden gnomes, dragons, a Sphinx, a werewolf, hags, serpents, Kappas, Grindylows ... and those are just the ones that I can think of off the top of my head. Oh, and Dementors. And the Grim.

Kazakhrider

06-08-2005, 11:43 PM

Now someone mentioned that aslan used deep magic. Deep Magic was refrenced to LOVE. Love was the deep magic, not any form of sorcery.

tg

You're right, although it was more than just love, it was also the manipulation of natural forces in enabling death to work backwards. Even the wizards can't reverse death in the Harry Potter books.

But in the case of the Deep Magic representing love, there's rather an interesting parallel with Harry Potter. Harry's mother, Lily, sacrificed herself to save her son from Voldemort, and in doing so she left a special magical protection on Harry. Voldemort didn't understand why at first he couldn't even physically touch Harry, and the curse that he shot at Harry was deflected by the protection of love that Lily had left.

And in the Department of Mysteries, there is a room that is always kept locked because it contains a power that is both too wonderful and too terrible. Dumbledore tells Harry that he possesses this power in great quantities, and Voldemort does not possess it at all. Rowling hasn't revealed what this power is, yet, but presumably it is Love.

waterhogboy

06-09-2005, 02:10 PM

Aye it could be that love produces good magic - and hate produces bad magic - but good magic is inherently stronger.

Also, more evidence that Rowling doesnt believe magic is dangerous... She dumbs the whole thing down by making it as a menial a thing as us 'muggles' do at school. I really dont think Rowling believes in magic at all...

Just a thought as well. If Jesus produced miracles using the power of God, couldnt it be that thats what Aslans magic is, or Gandalfs for that matter???

legolas

06-09-2005, 02:14 PM

Just a thought as well. If Jesus produced miracles using the power of God, couldnt it be that thats what Aslans magic is, or Gandalfs for that matter???

That's good point! Harry Potter is just Fantasy, so, the magic can come from no-where in HP!

waterhogboy

06-09-2005, 02:22 PM

Read all the ones in the series, am in the middle of A New Spring - the prequel at the moment... My sis has preordered book 11 so we'll be gettin that when it comes out!!!

NuggetBuster

06-09-2005, 06:43 PM

I suppose that you could say Harry Potter is similar to Moses ...

Child orphaned at birth, rough upbringing, redemption in the face of previously unknown evil ...

tgraveline

06-09-2005, 10:06 PM

yeah comes out in october i believe, have not read new spring yet though. Is it worth a read?

tg

legolas

06-09-2005, 10:38 PM

Thats a intersting way to think of it. :)

inked

06-09-2005, 11:23 PM

"Greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for his friends." So Harry's Mom did that for him and it provides him with a protection against Voldemort, but Harry has to learn to oppose Voldemort and to do the right even when it is very difficult. Now where have I heard something like that before? Oh, yeah, Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, etc. :D

As to the magic in HP, it is a natural capability which some persons are born with, not something they can learn (remember squibs go the opposite way, they are unmagical persons born into magical families). (The origin of the magic is the created order and thus, the Creator. Though that has not been directly addressed as of yet. There is the power greater than all and most terrifying at the Department of Magic, which has been identified with Love, and that may be a hint, as Harry possesses the power to an extraordinary degree, and the power is like that of his Mother sacrificing herself for Harry's sake.) But, as in our world, all power can be used properly and in line with its natural capacities, and is good, in its essence because not-good is parasitic and derivative and cannot exist without the good's prior presence. HOWEVER, each Muggle and each Wizard has the choice to use the good properly and morally or impoperly and immorally. That's what the books are truly about, moral choices, not magic as some have purported!

Think of the "magic" as an emphasis on properly aligning with nature rather than forcing nature by technology - not so different from Sauron/Saruman versus the Fellowship in Tolkien, eh? Thus we have a very clever presentation of proper stewardship of natural resources are indicated by how we use nature or abuse nature or work in harmony with nature or against it.
Just another layer in HP, ya'll. :)

Also, while one might be born with great potential, what one does with that, what one chooses, makes all the difference! And, people who make good choices still suffer the consequences of other persons bad choices and must work to repair the damage or oppose the bad, even at the cost of their lives and livelihoods. None is perfectly good, even though they try. And Voldemort is not absolutely evil or he couldn't exist! But his determination to live only for self has reduced him to a wraith for years, led him on murderous means to achieve some measure of self (which is very skeletal and hardly human as Hagrid observed), and driven him to oppose himself to the good so that he can achieve his goals. Voldemort has deliberately chosen to immerse himself in the Dark Arts as a means to power. Dumbledore knows about them, but is not willing to use them, though he will defend against them. He points to the good, practices the good, and encourages the good - even when it involves some rule-breaking in the process (not immorality or sin, by the way).

inked

06-09-2005, 11:38 PM

Hey, take it to the what are you reading now thread, guys! Way off-topic :p !

Kazakhrider

06-09-2005, 11:56 PM

Great post, inked :)

And NuggetBuster, that's an interesting comparison. It can also be paralleled with Shasta in HHB.

tgraveline

06-10-2005, 02:42 AM

yeah yeah yeah, i know that. People can always bring up a new point to get us boys that are so easily distracted on track can't they? Sometimes they can be nicer about mentioning our ADD lol. yeah that harry potter i tell ya, i love that stuff, so hot right now.

tg

inkspot

06-10-2005, 10:19 AM

yeah that harry potter i tell ya, i love that stuff, so hot right now.
Very smooth segue back to topic there, TG.

I am reading book three of Harry Potter now, and I just finished books one and two, and enjoyed them very much. I cannot say that HP is similar to CON, except that the heroes are children thrust into a magical world, and as we know that JKR is fond of CON, there will maybe be seven HP's all together, to cover each year at Hogwarts? That's a nice parallel to CON.

But our 17-year-old daughter told me that each successive book gets longer (I had noticed) and DARKER, which I hadn't noticed, and whether my girl was just being dramatic or she has sensed something I haven't, she said she felt JKR was getting depressed about her own children growing up and Harry approaching graduation from Hogwarts -- so each book was getting more morose and when they were finished, JKR would probably commit suicide!

Has anyone who has read all the existing books gotten this feeling?

inkspot

06-10-2005, 10:35 AM

Think of the "magic" as an emphasis on properly aligning with nature rather than forcing nature by technology - not so different from Sauron/Saruman versus the Fellowship in Tolkien, eh? Thus we have a very clever presentation of proper stewardship of natural resources are indicated by how we use nature or abuse nature or work in harmony with nature or against it.
Does JKR ever define in the books the difference between the magic they are learning at Hogwarts and the Dark Arts? Does it just become "Dark Arts" when you start using it to kill people, or...? I know the students attend a "Defense Against the Dark Arts" class, but so far (up to book three) they are learning to defend against strange beasts like the bogartt, not against another wizard using Dark Arts. I am just curious if there is ever a definition.

tgraveline

06-10-2005, 10:51 AM

I have not, and i'm usually pretty sensitive to things like that. I could understand that feeling though of being more morose as her own children grow up. I've seen it in my own mother her being a house mom. She had a hard time once i moved out, i was her baby and last one. Hard times, so i can see that, but commit suicide at the end, i doubt it.

tg

pacifiquesea

06-10-2005, 11:35 AM

The books have become darker, I've noticed - but commit suicide??? That's absurd. I saw a biography show on JK Rowling - she already knows how they end, she's got piles and piles of info on all of them - there's even a sealed envelope with the last chapter of book 7 in it. She just had a baby, so she doesn't have to worry about her kids growing up for awhile - for heaven's sake, her oldest kid isn't even in high school yet (I don't think).
She talked very frankly about the books getting darker, and said that was just the way the story goes, and she's just writing the story as she sees it should be - not always light and happy.

legolas

06-10-2005, 11:42 AM

No, not really. But, I think she is making the teacher characters, make themselves forget about Voldemort, although, they know what they should be teaching.

If Snape did become the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, then I'm pretty sure they would be going one on one with each other. Like in HP and the Chamber of Secrets, they had an extra class with everyone there, so, when times are right the HP 'staff' (in the books) would decide that.

(Sorry if I took to much time explaining what I only think)

inkspot

06-10-2005, 12:03 PM

Oh, well, that's good. I did not know she just had a baby. Congratulations to JKR!

Goldenrod22

06-10-2005, 01:13 PM

Hey there, Goldenrod here. I just have to say...it kind of is looking like that same old argument for HP again.

Let me sum it up in a few words.

Pro-potter: "Darkness is realism. It shows what the world is really like. Plus, nobody is affected since it is just fantasy, like Narnia."

Pro-Innoncence: "If these books are aimed at kids, then why does darkness ALWAYS get the upper hand? And I don't know if anybody has taken a look around lately, but the WHOLE world does not consist of negative people with 'nothing good' happening. I choose to have a brighter view of life. Plus, kids who are reading the books are affected (read my 'comments from real kids' in a separate thread). It is like offering somebody a little bit of poison at a time.

Pretty soon, once the kid is grown, they are used to the poison and can't even tell that it is in them anymore.

Maybe that is why a lot of the comments on these posts are glossing over the 'bad' parts in HP.
You're already used to it.

inked

06-10-2005, 01:16 PM

The books follow the natural increase in knowledge of the "real" world that comes with growing up. You have to admit that the world "gets darker" as you acuired the conceptual capabilities to understand the world: no parents to be totally responsible for you, the "real" implications of drive-by shootings, drug abuse, people who use people, competing world systems and differing valuations of the individual (capitalism, communism, socialism, depotism, tyranny, the Idi Amins and Sadaam Husseins of the world, terrorism, tsunamis, etc). Then the realizations that you have to make your own decisions and live by the consequences, and the fact that others want you to comply with their alternate views by force (political or otherwise).

Add to that the chemical make-up of the teenaged brain suffers an intensity of emotion 2 - 4 times that of the adult, and, voila, darkness seems to be spreading - and not just form Mordor or the White Witch's castle. The world seems full of Barrow downs and the loss of the Lonely Isles, doesn't it?

So, Harry Potter reflects realistically the experience of growing up. Add to that the death of your godfather in battle and the realization that your actions are tremendously important, and the need to kill the "old man" (which is my interpretation of the Voldemort vs Harry battle), and suddenly, the darkness makes a great deal of sense (in the Pauline phrase, we see (in a mirror) darkly).

NO suicide is in the offing - unless you categorize the giving up of one's life to save others as suicide, which I seriously doubt. The rumor mill seems to have gone into overtime in someone's mind in this regard! JK Rowling did have a daughter this year, and her older child is early teens at most. Lots to live for (not that teenagers don't drive you crazy, but that goes with the parental territory, doesn't it? :eek: )

Goldenrod22

06-10-2005, 01:18 PM

Sorry...didnt get a thing you just said.

Maybe reread my previous post?

inked

06-10-2005, 01:25 PM

Does JKR ever define in the books the difference between the magic they are learning at Hogwarts and the Dark Arts? Does it just become "Dark Arts" when you start using it to kill people, or...? I know the students attend a "Defense Against the Dark Arts" class, but so far (up to book three) they are learning to defend against strange beasts like the bogartt, not against another wizard using Dark Arts. I am just curious if there is ever a definition.

Yes, the Dark Arts are defined in the books by the uses, choices, and actions of individuals. But you have not read enough to have gotten there except in the earliest stages. Think of the association of Snape (lovely personality, eh?) with the Dark Arts, then the need for Defence against them, the character of Voldemort/Quirrell, and the opposing examples of Dumbledore, Hagrid, and the teachers at Hogwarts other than Snape. JK Rowling is defining by representative individuals, action/adventure, and characterization.

It is a truism that the Dark Arts have been a bust thus far for you Inkspot, but you have only read less than half the available corpus and I WILL NOT INTRODUCE SPOILERS. You just have to trust me on this! :p

inked

06-10-2005, 01:40 PM

REad it again, GR22, slower! I'd write s..l...o...w....e.....r if I could :p !

waterhogboy

06-10-2005, 01:49 PM

Yeh - I like Harry Potter too. So many levels....

(psst.. tg - a new springs really good. it gives lots of info about moirraine and lan and how they got to know each other. you also find out about how they test for the shawl!)

*ahem* So yeh - I mean I just love the way the HP books are so deep and meaningful. What are other peoples thoughts???

inkspot

06-10-2005, 03:06 PM

REad it again, GR22, slower! I'd write s..l...o...w....e.....r if I could :p !
LOL, Inked!

I understood it:

Growing up is difficult -- Harry's difficult circumstances and choices reflect the reality of teenaged angst.

Harry possesses powerful abilities, which could easily be used for evil, and he could become as powerful and horrible a wizard as the "dark Lord" Voldemort ... just as you and I possess many human capabilities that can be used for evil and good; we could become as evil as Hitler if we let those abilities run amok.

Of necessity, we crucify the carnal man (we are "crucified with Christ," Galatians 2:20), drive out the evil desires. Harry's struggle with the evil Voldemort is a picture (allegory?) of how I as a believer must struggle against my sinful nature and may someday overcome it by God's grace.

I do not know yet if this is how the story goes, but I understand what Inked is saying about it.

*ahem* So yeh - I mean I just love the way the HP books are so deep and meaningful. What are other peoples thoughts???
Will you boys take it over to the "What Are You Reading?" thread?! :rolleyes:

tgraveline

06-10-2005, 08:47 PM

sheesh, if i didn't know any better these woman are trying to take over jonny. Thanks for the info WHB. Now i do have something to ask about HP. What did you all think of dobby in the movie compared to the books? Do you think they did a good job with him, and i can't wait to see how they portray him with his different socks and stuff, should be interesting once they start showing him dressed and all.

tg

waterhogboy

06-11-2005, 12:26 PM

Hmmmmmmmmm... He was nothing like I imagined him. I thought he was smaller and stockier and less human looking. I thought the personality was good though...

tgraveline

06-11-2005, 02:05 PM

Well see thats where my problem lay then, because i had seen the movies first so then i only pictured dobby as that. I think it was a cute take on elves though for the movies though.

tg

Tarkheena_Finduilas22

06-11-2005, 02:30 PM

I read a book called "The menace behind the Magick" or somthing or other and it shows all the crude humor and bad influence it has on kids. I think HP is just wrong.

sevgi

06-11-2005, 04:07 PM

I have never read or watched Harry Potter books or movies When my class in elemantry school went on a field trip to see one I wasn't allowed to go because my parents said that there was witchcraft and a lot of bad stuff in there

Tarkheena_Finduilas22

06-11-2005, 04:35 PM

Yeah, the Bible is all against Witchcraft, but I at least watch the old show Bewitched!

inkspot

06-11-2005, 07:43 PM

Yeah, the Bible is all against Witchcraft, but I at least watch the old show Bewitched!
The HP books don't seem to advocate "real" witchcraft that I can tell -- there is no indication at all that there is any worship involved in it, nor any devil, at least in the books I have read.

The children whose parents have a problem with the books because of witchcraft and don't let them read HP are probably the parents who could best frame the books in a positive light for their kids and give them an enjoyable reading adventure.

It's kids whose parents don't care what they read and don't help them see the positive, moral themes in the book who could be led astray by them, I guess.

she-elfwarrior19

06-11-2005, 08:41 PM

Ya like, i wasnt really aloud either b/c of the witchcraft but i wouldnt read or watch HP anyways i've always found it rather dull, and unsufficient

tgraveline

06-11-2005, 09:38 PM

hey sevgi and tarkeena, I was just like the both of you, but one of my friends talked me into watching the movies, because he is a christian like myself and so i tried them out and i said if i felt like there was something wrong i would stop watching it, well i ended up watching the movies and loving them. Then eventually i read the books. I must say, there is so little of a difference between these books and tolkiens if any, just one is labled as "safe" because he was a known christian. So I wont' try to convert you, but I have talked to many who i would never have thought to be open minded to the books, and what i've really come across and learned is that the stance that christians had on these books just made us seem more hypocritical and i think it hurt us with the image we now hold.

tg

Tarkheena_Finduilas22

06-11-2005, 09:51 PM

The problem is the efect on Little Kids. It makes them want to avoid rules and cuss and all sorts of stuff! I'm so against Harry Potter! :mad:

inked

06-11-2005, 10:43 PM

TF22,

I have to disagree. Most kids learn to cuss from their parents, their older brothers or sisters, or from friends, or at school, or all of the above. I have never met anyone who learned it solely from any book!

By the way, that one-eyed monster you watch Bewitched on at your house, it can teach kids to cuss and worse! Beware the one-eyed monster! ;)

GrayCloak

06-11-2005, 10:46 PM

I think it would really help if people would stop reading articles and books about HP and simply let the works speak for themselves. When you're done with them you may still hate them, but then at least you'll be informed about why you hate them or thought they were wrong. I've read quite a few articles concerning why HP is bad, and I think a lot of them just get it wrong.

Just my two cence there - I heard how 'evil' HP was before I read them, and when I finally did get the books myself I was suprised how much people had overreacted. I still don't agree with certain things in the books, but I don't have a major problem with them like I would have if I'd taken peoples' word for it.

what i've really come across and learned is that the stance that christians had on these books just made us seem more hypocritical and i think it hurt us with the image we now hold.

Very true.

Tarkheena_Finduilas22

06-12-2005, 04:22 PM

I still don't like Harry Potter

tgraveline

06-12-2005, 05:17 PM

ok, i just realized what a moron i am for not having moved this thread already. So i'm going to put it in the lamp-post.

tg

lirimar_senshi

06-13-2005, 10:53 AM

G'day

i've read all the HP books to date and have enjoyed them all (my fav is PoA :) ) I have however gotten frustrated at times with how harry constantly disobeys his elders and is never repremanded.

The other day I had a kind of light bulb moment. I relised that in many of the instances where Harry breaks the rules there are serious consequences for him. Ie. Going after Serious in OotP. These are the events parents need to point to when they are giving these books to children to read. It is abosolutly nessesary for parents to screen their children's liturature and be well informed.

God Bless

waterhogboy

06-13-2005, 01:12 PM

tgraveline

06-13-2005, 10:01 PM

well it would be wise those of parents to be involved and knowledgable in what their child is reading is it not? So that could not hurt.

tg

Lirimaer_senshi

06-14-2005, 12:15 AM

Welcome lirimar - I havent seen you post before...

You make a good point - but do you think these consequences are oviously anough linked to the actions so as to make the reader see it is wrong??? What do you think??

I only just started posting last night. (well it was night here in Australia.)

I'm not entirely sure and I'd have to read the books again very carefully to be sure. But i think that's why parents need to be able to talk to their children about what the consequences of harry's actions are.

Hope that makes sense.

God bless

Kazakhrider

06-14-2005, 06:15 AM

*waves to Lirimaer*

I'm an Adelaidean too :D

borntofly

06-14-2005, 02:40 PM

I'm new too!

Anyway, you guys have been talking about how that Harry Potter books keep on getting darker, and I agree with that. In fact, the Goblet of Fire was probably the darkest. When Voldemort returned using his father's bone, the blood of a servant, and the blood of an enemy. was this at all occultic? it was super satanic, and I was kind of freaked out at this part.

I agree with goldenrod22 who said that when kids who read these books and look into them and fantasize about them, "It is like offering somebody a little bit of poison at a time. Pretty soon, once the kid is grown, they are used to the poison and can't even tell that it is in them anymore." I really like the Harry Potter books but when they become a distraction and turn my eyes away from the One who loves me, I can almost feel the "poison" working around in my brain softening my mind and desensitizing it to the maddness in the world. They sort of even the battlefeild in the enemy's favor when I let them consume my life.

So, I think my point is that Harry Potter can be used as a weapon when we let our gaurd down, and allow our minds to be molded by them. If these books become a distraction the person who is reading them, they need to take a break and set their book down for a while. I think this is one of the biggest problems with reading Harry Potter. It isn't the idea of witchcraft, it's when we become obsessed about them and live our lives around them. When they become the thing we love.

sorry if I have been repetitive in this post. My mind keeps talking even if it might not make sense.

-borntofly

inked

06-14-2005, 06:23 PM

There is no good thing but what can be twisted by the Enemy to our harm, if we let our guard down!

If you are familiar with the Eucharist being the Lord's Supper as celebrated in the Anglican, Roman Catholic, and Orthodox tradtions, you would probably recognize that what Voldemort does is an inversion of the Eucharist. This makes obvious literary sense for Voldemort's followers are Death Eaters. But, NOTE, neither Voldemort or Wormtail or any Death Eater can produce any positive benefit or reality, they must distort and destroy to achieve their "re-creation" of self, body, or society. LET HIM WHO HAS EARS HEAR AND SHE WHO HAS EYES SEE! - to paraphrase a famous person's instructions.

But if its not clear, let me point out that this is very nearly what what the Ape was doing in the Last Battle with Puzzle and the Lion skin.

And this is what reading great literature like TCON and HP does. It prepares you by example for the possibilities of such persons and evils so you will learn to recognize them when they come as "an angel of light" in either the political or spiritual realms of your life. You are learning the proper responses according to Natural Law and Revelation. You needn't be taken in if you are prepared. (See THE ABOLITION OF MAN by CS Lewis for more.)

borntofly

06-14-2005, 07:45 PM

that makes sense! thanks alot!

inkspot

06-17-2005, 10:06 AM

Welcome, Borntofly, I didn't see you post before. I am just now making my way through the HP books, so I didn't get to the freaky part you are talking about, but I can see Inked's point that it is rather like a backward communion table... very interesting.

I also agree with you (and I think we mentioned this in some other thread) that whatever you are reading or watching on TV or listening to can get into your head and you even start talking like the people in the book or whatever -- then you're right, it's time to take a break! :)

borntofly

06-17-2005, 12:28 PM

thanks! I feel very welcome!

inkspot

06-21-2005, 11:14 AM

waterhogboy

06-21-2005, 12:34 PM

Yeh theyre about 15/16, but I hate that book anyway - incredibly boring!

GrayCloak

06-21-2005, 02:01 PM

Okay, I'm in book number five now, and it is not only darker, but down right depressing! So far every time you think it might lighten up, it gets worse. I guess for kids who were ten when Socerers Stone came out and are 15 or 17 or whatever now, it would be okay, if they weren't prone to depression, but I wouldn't want little kids just starting on the series to be subjected to this bleakness! :(

Harry seriously needed some Prozac in that book - I'm a depressed 16 year old just the same as him, but honestly kid, take a chill pill!

Lol, sorry, but he was just such a little dork in that book; he needs anger managment classes!

inkspot

06-21-2005, 04:24 PM

I guess that doesn't mean it lightens up in the second half or so? :(

WHB, I just noticed your new sig. Very Funny!!! No idea ...

Goldenrod22

06-21-2005, 05:36 PM

Hello everybody! :) I love all of the newcomers, you guys sound very curious. I think it is great to be informed about the tough topics of our days. I just wanted to step in for a second to say that I think that my point of view is being misinterpreted by (I think) Waterhogboy and Inked.

You may have seen the comments I made and thought that, 'Wow, that person has'nt ever read the books, so that must mean they have no clue what they're talking about! I mean, after all, to be informed you have to be immersed in exactly what you are defending against.'

Wait a second! When you think that way, I have to speak up for myself.

I believe, and I'm sure that many other people do too, that I would be hyprocritical if I said, "I believe the HP books are wrong. But I will read them anyway, just to make sure."

I am sure of what I believe in. I don't need to 'experiment' to find out what I believe.

That definetely keeps me grounded, both in faith and life. :)

Sojourner

06-21-2005, 07:00 PM

Well it seems as if the new people here have been made welcome so on to my post.

GR22 in response to your post that way of thinking is possibly dangerous. Ignorance is more dangerous than knowledge. I am not saying that you should read the books. But you should read them if you are going to make judgements about them. In the Book of Acts the Apostle Paul goes to the city of Berea...within that city are the Berean brethren now when he preached to them they did not blithely accept his word for it. they took the bible for themselves and studied to see if what Paul had preached was biblical. And that is how we must live.

Now I am not saying that we should go out and get every book on witchcraft just beacause we want to prove it wrong. But fantasy books like HP and LotR have been criticized over the years as from the devil by certain people. (If anyone wants to see a hilarious example of this let me know.) We need to know our material, the better informed we are the better we can fight something. Now you shoudl also stay grounded in the bible. That is what I do when I have to write some of my biblical history papers. I read the book that is requiered than check it against what the bible says.

The point to all of this is that i do not believe it is hypocritical to call something wrong and then study it to make sure. but I do believe it is wrong to form opinions when they come in the form of an email titled (A Worried mother: The truth about Harry Potter) or (Boy kills himself and family blames Harry Potter: The real story behind JKR)
I am sorry but these emails make me angry, not only are half of them untrue. They are alarmist. I do not agree with alot of the stuff in the hp books. But I do not have book burnings to destroy them. These things ruin the churches relationship with non-christians. They harm more than they help.

inkspot

06-23-2005, 05:49 PM

There is a great website called truthorfiction.com and when you get one of those alarming emails, you can go there and search for it -- then the website tells you whether it is fact-based or just an internet urban legend. I searched for Harry Potter there and got two hits, and both were myths, just made-up stories of how HP is turning kids into Satanists and that JKR admitted being a Satanist.

I am not halfway through book 5 yet because it is very hard to read because it is very depressing. I don't hardly read adult books because I don't like reality that much, and frankly this book strikes me as too real.

It's not the witchcraft that is bothering me, but the hideous injustice Harry faces every day, with no relief in sight, and the advice he receives from those (adults) who KNOW he is being unjustly persecuted is "Keep your head down and your mouth shut." Frankly, this is a real adult situation, on the job if your boss doesn't like you, or in public if you live in a repressive regime. I would not want my little children to read this and be discouraged by it! If they have to learn that kind of harsh lesson in the real world, let it be in the real world and not in a fantasy book they are reading for fun. Yuck! I don't know if I will even finish this book ... :(

Goldenrod22

06-24-2005, 02:28 PM

Right on, Inkspot! :)
That is what I mean. Why should kids--whose minds are young and have the ability to be easily influenced by whatever they read--why should they read something that has so much DARKNESS in it? What are we trying to do? Raise up a generation of depressed, drugged-up, and messed up kids?

That may be considered realism, but not in my world.

You can be IN the world, but not OF the world, in that you do not participate in the same activities (like going to R-rated films, reading trashy romance novels, listening to rap songs with violent lyrics, etc.).

To me, I think Christians are being big wimps on the HP issue. They think it is alright, since the world says it is.

Don't you think that we should be leery of what the world accepts?

Here's a good example of what I'm trying to say:

If you have a friend who is heavily into achohol, drugs, and gang-member type violence, would you (if you are a Christian) follow his lead in every personal decision that he makes?

His reading material, music, whatever it is?

That is what I mean.

You have a different lifestyle, and calling. Why do you want to follow in his footsteps? Didnt Jesus leave a different set of tracks behind for you to follow?

P.S. I disagree with Sojourner. I still do not think that 'knowledge is power' as it applies in every situation.

Children, no matter their age, do NOT need to know about divination, sorcery, necromancy (speaking with the dead), and all the particulars of such.

Why? I do not think that there is a good reason why. Unless these parents out there want their children to be 'mini adults' and know all of the things that adults do.

This is why our kids today are so hardened...they never got to be innocent kids.

Sojourner

06-24-2005, 02:41 PM

I was not talking of kids GR22, I am talking about mature teenagers and responsible adults. Children of any age should not be subjected to things such as what we are talking about. I am not telling little kids to go out and study these books. I am saying that you(GoldenRod22,Me, Inkspot, Inked, Graycloak and anyone else) who makes the adult decision to form an opinion on a subject should know both sides.

Goldenrod22

06-24-2005, 02:46 PM

But why should even ADULTS read material that has so much questionable witchcraft and evil in it?

Why should ADULTS watch R-rated movies?

If you are a professing Christian, why do that to your heart? It is like eating the 'forbidden fruit' in the Garden of Eden over and over and over and over again!
And over again.

Goldenrod22

06-24-2005, 02:56 PM

Here are some lovely verses on what is really important when considering the books:

"When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices DIVINATION or SORCERY, interprets OMENS, engages in WITCHCRAFT, or casts SPELLS, or who is a MEDIUM or SPIRITIST or who consults the DEAD. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God."
---Deut. 18:9

"The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining ever brighter till the full light of day. But the way of the wicked is like deep darkness; they do not know what makes them stumble."
--Prov. 4:18

Sojourner

06-24-2005, 03:04 PM

I don't see how the R-rated movies has to do with anything but, You should know what you are arguing against it is called apologetics. I am not saying this is all you should but you should know. Would you go out and try to convert a Mormon without knowing why they are one? Now this does not apply to every case, some people become Christians just from the bible, but others have to be shown the mistakes in their thinking so they can reject it. And how will you show them if you do not know? Something to think about.

Goldenrod22

06-24-2005, 03:08 PM

Yes, but what I'm talking about is that you don't have to experience something first-hand to know that it is wrong, or that the concepts are wrong.

If I see that a cliff is ten thousand feet high, then I know that I will probably break my bones and die if I jump off the top. Now, I COULD try and see if I would break my bones and die if I jumped, but if I was wrong on my assumption than I would be in a lot of trouble. I am none the worse off if I do not try to jump.

I do not need to try something like witchcraft to see if I like it. God says to trust him and not participate.

Sojourner

06-24-2005, 03:09 PM

GR22 I want you to know that I agree with alot of the points you are making. I just want to clarify that I feel that we need to have knowledge before we pass judgement. So many people do that these days. You are not one of them, I am putting this forward as a caution. And you have at least read reviews of HP because you know about the books.

GrayCloak

06-24-2005, 03:13 PM

But why should even ADULTS read material that has so much questionable witchcraft and evil in it?

But the 'witchcraft' in HP isn't really witchcraft at all! It's tenchology - it's science. The 'wizard world' is void of man-made devices, and instead is full of 'magic'. None of the 'sorcery' in the HP books resemble real occultic practices - 'divination' is the closest, but in the book it's a complete joke, even in the wizarding world. It's a hoax.

We can't say something is evil unless we KNOW it to be evil. You can't say that it's occultic, unless you've read it and can honestly say, 'that was satanic'. A book get's labled with a word like 'magic' and automatically it's said to be 'evil' reguardless of what the book in question actually preaches.

inkspot

06-24-2005, 06:02 PM

I agree with Gray, that Harry Potter's magic/sorcery is quite removed from devil worship.

But I also agree with GR that too much realism can be a burden. In LWW for instance, when Lucy's siblings all thought she was lying or losing her mind, that was a bleak few pages in the book, and I felt so bad for Lucy! But in about a chapter, her sibs had arrived in Narnia, too, and that dismal part of the book was over. They still had challenges to face, but Lucy was not facing unjust accusations alone ...

In HP book 5, for half the book now, Harry has been constantly under terrible pressure because of an insidious campaign to make him look like a liar, and worse, not to mention that one of his teachers is physically torturing him, and he refuses to mention it to any other adults. These are things that can happen in our world, that ulcer-causing stress of being in the right and being unbelieved and unheeded, and physical abuse, but I don't know if it's good to subject kids to 200 pages of it at a time. :o

It's a tribute to JKR's skills that she can make it seem so real! But it is a burden to me, as an adult. I can't imagine how it would affect a child. Is it evil? I don't know, but I know I wouldn't want my young child reading it. It's too much.

inked

06-27-2005, 02:34 AM

And I would have you consider Paul's advice:

"Whatsoever things be true...think on these things" - but you'll have to actually think instead of accepting errant nonsense about witches and the Bible and literature. Is that really aking too much? :confused:

inked

06-27-2005, 02:49 AM

In book 5 Harry is always Harry and nothing else? I don't think so. Voldemort is oppressing him and linked to him. Plus, teenagers feel their emotions about 2-4x as strongly as adults for biochemical reasons. Harry has pretty good reasons to be angry, but since when has a teenager ever needed a reason to be angry? Harry is learning!

Inkspot, hurry up and finish! I will not spoil the book for you, but there is much more in it than that which you have observed and which GR22 condemns from lack of knowledge.

GR22, if you readily admit that you do not know what you are talking about from the books and that all your information is, at best, second-hand, if not pure gossip, why do you insist on tearing down that which you know nothing about - if you don't consider that too nasty a question? My Bible tells me that nothing is to be condemned without the testimony of two witnesses - both in the OT and the Gospels from the lips of Jesus, no less! How do you justify your antipathy on hearsay?

inkspot

06-27-2005, 06:06 PM

Inkspot, hurry up and finish! I will not spoil the book for you, but there is much more in it than that which you have observed
Finished it! The ending was exciting, and Harry was vindicated, thank goodness!

These are very good books, JKR is a good writer. But I still can't see Harry as a Christian Everyman or these books on a similar plane to CON. These are good adventure stories, and it may be that they espouse some ideas that people in general regard as good: love, self-sacrifice, perseverance in the face of opposition.

But I cannot, so far, see that they point to any deep spiritual truths, as CON certainly does.

Also, not all these books are for children! Books one and two, maybe three, but four and five get very dark and harrowing for youngsters -- and probably not for teens who are prone to depression, either.

I'm glad I read them, and I am looking forward to the new one. But I would not let a child read past book three. Too grim. :eek:

I happened to see Prisoner of Azkaban movie on cable TV (I've never seen one of the movies before) and thought it a shame they could not do whole the story in the time they had, because the book was far more interesting than the movie, but that is bound to be in most books that are made into movies.

Gymfan15

06-27-2005, 06:46 PM

GrayCloak

06-27-2005, 08:16 PM

One out of mny reason why I will not read the HP books:

It does not take participation to make one's mind and soul corrupt in a sense. If you are exposed to something many times, even if you don't actually do it, it gradually has the same effect on your mindframe and spiritual well being

This is a very valid veiwpoint Gymfan, and I can respect it. I would, however, like for you to clarify what you think might 'corrupt' your mind or soul in the HP books.

Like it's been said before HP get's a bad reputation because of the whole 'magic' issue, but I think a lot of people would change their stance if they actually read the books for themselves and understood what the 'magic' in the 'Wizarding World' is. It's not the sorcery condemed in the Old Testiment. If it was you wouldn't find me touching these books with a ten foot pole.

To be able to make a fair evaluation on any subject we need the facts, and sadly a lot of people feel they don't have to do this. (I'm not implying you are Gymfan, I'm simply making a statement. :) )

These are very good books, JKR is a good writer. But I still can't see Harry as a Christian Everyman or these books on a similar plane to CON. These are good adventure stories, and it may be that they espouse some ideas that people in general regard as good: love, self-sacrifice, perseverance in the face of opposition.

But I cannot, so far, see that they point to any deep spiritual truths, as CON certainly does.

That's exactly how I see the books Inky.

*Spoiler for book 5*

When Sirius died I thought 'well this is going to be interesting...seeing how Rowling deals with death' but she really didn't talk at all about heaven, hell or if Harry would ever see his beloved godfather again. It was just sort of 'Well Harry, it's really sad when people die, I'm sorry.'

There were certain things implied with that whole 'beyond the veil' theme, but nothing was followed up on it. Just there is probably something out there...but no one knows for certain. Loonie Luna certainly thought there was life after death; but for the majority of the books we're led to believe she's an idiot anyway...so what does Rowling expect us to think?

Gymfan15

06-27-2005, 10:22 PM

I do not to be well learned on the subject of sorcery and witchcraft to know that it is wrong. The HP books might teach us a lot about friendship and other good virtures, but I can get that elsewhere without getting the not so good things along with it.

Remember what was Lot's undoing? He didn't participate in the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah, he just stuck around and didn't make waves and gradually he 'accepted' it as a fact of life, but it unknowingly corrupted his soul.

Gymfan15

06-27-2005, 10:32 PM

ETA: Something else I forgot.

This really doesn't have to do with HP directly but I thought I'd spit it out here. lol.

Fantasy (any kind of fantasy, even CoN, LoTR, and others) can help us in our walk with the Lord, but it can also be a tremendous snare and 'lead us to imagine things that God never intended us to.'

My dad is very, very, very carful about what we read, especially fantasy. He wouldn't let us read the CoN books for the longest time, but finally allowed us because it is an allegory of Chirst and it can help in one's spiritual life, not detract from it.

He won't let us read the LoTR books yet. When we're grown up I don't think he would mind, but now, when we (and I, I am 15 but I am a far ways off from being grown up spiritually!) have impressionable minds.

I know for me, I tend to go way overboard with things. If I like something, I can start to obsess over it.

Which is why I have no problem staying away from other fantasy books. Some of it can be very good, but too much of a good thing is a very bad thing. So its better to be safe then sorry, right?

Anyway...and its not like HP is the only good reading material out there...maybe if it was the last book in the world I would read it, but it most certanly isn't! lol

GrayCloak

06-27-2005, 11:20 PM

Good way of putting things Gymfan. Nice analogy with Lot.

I have never felt, however, that I am being effected by the books. I have never considered sorcery or magic acceptable because of them - I view them the same way I do ALL fictional books - magic or none magical.

Fantasy seems to have a bad reputation in the Christian world, and being an avid fantasy reader, I can easily understand why. With that said, though, I don't think it's fair to just jump on these books above other genres; we need to evaluate everything we read in light of the truths of Scripture; something without magic in it can be just as dangerous, and even more-so, then a work full of magic.

I've actually been more adversely effected by non-fantasy works, then fantasy. I find it much easier to separate the truths and fictions in a world of 'magic' and 'elves' then in none fiction, or historical fiction literature. But this is just me

I do not to be well learned on the subject of sorcery and witchcraft to know that it is wrong.

I agree 100% with you - and I will never say that witchcraft is acceptable. I will only say that the 'magic' in Harry Potter is NOT the same thing as sorcery. You really do have to read the books to fully understand that.

'Magic' is men looking outside the natural world to gain power - I find this to be utterly wicked. In the world of Harry Potter this never happens. Some people are born with gifts and abilities labeled as 'magic'. They never search them out, and they never seek after them - they are just born with 'magic' powers.

I've said it before: In essence their 'magic' is our 'science'.

I am really disappointed, however, that we never get an explanation to where this 'magic' comes from. I find this to be a fatal flaw in the books, and I really hope that Rowling (who is supposedly a Christian) makes up for that in her later books.

I realize now that I've been ranting (sorry if anyone read this whole thing!), Gymfan I can respect that you probably won't ever read the Harry Potter books; I probably wouldn't even recommend them, because, honestly, I like several series of fantasy books above them. I just really think we have to be careful when we put moral judgments on things.

Gymfan15

06-27-2005, 11:29 PM

Yes, I understand. :)

Sometimes its just a matter of personal conviction; my dad calls it the "Others may, we cannot" factor.

And this is one of those, for me. lol Along with many many other things! :)

GrayCloak

06-27-2005, 11:45 PM

Believe me, I have A LOT of personal convictions myself; Lol, fantasy just doesn't happen to be one of them. I'm too attached to elves and hobbits to think otherwise....:D

Goldenrod22

07-01-2005, 12:36 PM

Hey, everybody! Goldenrod here. We have a lot of very smart people in this conversation, which is great!

I have to disagree though with one of the points that was brought up.

For example, the common statement (of HP lovers):
"There are no REAL occultic or magickal things in HP". Here are some statements taken from the books:

(P.S. These 'classes' are taught to the young wizards in preparation for learning magick)

Real Life: "Ancient Runes" (Practiced by the London-based occult group 'Ordo Anno Mundi')
Hogwarts School: "Those are my books for...Divination, the study of the Ancient Runes" (Prisoner of Azkaban, page 57)
Real Life: "Divination" First Degree
HP: "We will be covering the basic methods of Divination this year" (Prisoner...page 103)
Real Life: "Spellcasting" First Degree
HP: "All students should have a copy of each of the following: The Standard Book of Spells (Grade 1)" (Sorcerer's Stone, page 66)
Real Life: "Animal Transformation" [Transfiguration] Fourth Degree
HP: "Transfiguration is some of the most complex and dangerous magic you will learn at Hogwarts" (Sorcerer's Stone, page 134)

These are just a few of the many 'references' to real magic that some have said do not exist. They may be veiled in the fictional style, but any kid with half a mind can figure out that these things are imitatable. They may not even care until they are adults and can check out the occult section without any second thought.

Another thing that many people think of non-Harry Potter reading people is that they are, to say most plainly, ignorant.

Oh, wait. Inked already said that (with a sneer, of course). He is not very considerate of opposing views, but I will not go into that right now. What I am trying to defend is the fact that I am against Harry Potter for valid, clear reasons. I am not stupid, ignorant, or misled by 'second-hand' opinions.

The ones who are misled are those who continue to close their ears to anyone who might have a concern for something other than what is popular at the time.

I think I am one of the few who have said, "Now, wait a second. What ARE they promoting in those books?"

Why do so many people, smart and curious readers, have to settle for anything less than questioning something that has the appearance of something 'out of place'?

Let alone what God has laid out in the Bible for us to follow.

C'mon people! Let's rally for something higher than what WE want all the time. What will satisfy OUR hunger for fantasy. Let's try for something greater than all of us. The Shining Standard. It is what Jesus has called us to be, like him.

Goldenrod22

07-01-2005, 12:40 PM

tgraveline

07-01-2005, 12:56 PM

Who was god speaking to and at what time was this in the bible? I'm guessing its when the jews made it to the promiseland.

There was a lot of stuff like that going on then and all. But I have to point this out. I work with a guy that is into wicca and other stuff. He absolutely hates the Harry Potter books and movies with a passion. The very people we are suppose to be saying that we are becoming like or something in these books hates it, because he says it is totally unlike anything taught in their books and whatnot.

So what these books do is aggrivate those we are not to be. Others have said that Jo is a christian and then there was debate as to whether or not she was good. Might it be then that she is and that she does these books and they will end in a christian sort of way? Then it could be a door in the form of magic, just like c.s. lewis, not so blatant at all. But take Tolkiens work, he said it was not an allegory, but people knew him to be a christian so they just took it to be that way anyways. Maybe people just got it wrong with this one.

tg

Goldenrod22

07-01-2005, 01:04 PM

Yes, but there are other groups on the Internet that are Wiccans that support the books as having elements of real witchcraft.

I don't have time to explain right now, but I will come back to exactly what I mean later.

GrayCloak

07-01-2005, 01:12 PM

Goldenrod, no one in this thread will debate you on the fact that the books have 'magic' in them; the books are about a young boy going away to a magic bording school. However, what they are practicing isn't REAL magic - none of the theories or 'spellwork' taught in the school have any relivance to real occultic practices..in fact the one subject I was concerned about (Divination) as maybe being a lead into the occult turned out to be a joke to the whole of the magicing world, and no one took it seriously.

Taken from HP book 3 the prisoner of Azkaban.

"Divination is one of the most imprecise branches of magic. I shall not conceal from you that I have verly little patience with it.

I think divination is really woolly." she said, "A lot of guesswork if you ask me."

No matter what names may be given to thier classes, the classes themselves dispell any thought of real occultism. Here is a quote from my last post concerning the 'magic' of Harry Potter:

'Magic' is men looking outside the natural world to gain power - I find this to be utterly wicked. In the world of Harry Potter this never happens. Some people are born with gifts and abilities labeled as 'magic'. They never search them out, and they never seek after them - they are just born with 'magic' powers.

This is what I believe - and this is why I can read HP with a clean concience.

think I am one of the few who have said, "Now, wait a second. What ARE they promoting in those books?"

The books seem to be promoting several things.

Tales of friendship and loyalty - a story about a boy who was ophananed and raised by begrudging relatives - who was always told he was worthless and a burden upon everyone around him. Until one day Harry discovered that, not only did he belonged to another world, but that in that world he was a hero.

I wish I had time to write more on this, but saddly I don't. I will enjoy reading your response Goldenrod; I hope I've been able to clearly state my veiwpoint and why I believe it.

inkspot

07-01-2005, 02:17 PM

a story about a boy who was ophananed and raised by begrudging relatives - who was always told he was worthless and a burden upon everyone around him. Until one day Harry discovered that, not only did he belonged to another world, but that in that world he was a hero.
Aren't we all spiritual orphans, worthless to ourselves and others, until God touches us and we discover our true home is with Him in eternity! For a while on this earth, we are stranded where we're out of place (like Harry with the Dursleys), but beyond the temporary proving ground of this lifetime, we will find ourselves in the heroic realm where we belong, with God.

I don't know if that is the point JKR is trying to make, but I think that a parent could very easily make this point with her children when they read the HP books, and just as easily show them that the "magic" in the HP stories is not real, and that occult/Satanic practices (on the other hand) are real, and are evil.

This isn't to say I'm 100% on board with Potter, although I did enjoy all the stories. As I mentioned elsewhere, I think the last couple (books 4 & 5) were too bleak for young kids in realistic ways -- not in magic ways -- and might even be depressing to teenagers who are prone to depression. Although Harry did survive and was vinicated for his professions that had been labeled as lies, he suffered terribly, and also lost someone very dear to him (it's starting to sound like a Tennessee Williams play!). These are tough subjects for kids.

inkspot

07-01-2005, 02:25 PM

Others have said that Jo is a christian and then there was debate as to whether or not she was good. Might it be then that she is and that she does these books and they will end in a christian sort of way? Then it could be a door in the form of magic, just like c.s. lewis, not so blatant at all.
I would be very happy if that is the end toward which JKR is building. I am kind of upset right now because Harry was such a little monster in the last book, and it would be very nice if the next two books find him repenting of that sort of behavior and learning to flow in God's power rather than let the ravages of his past ruin his happiness and future.

(When I say God's power, I mean whatever JKR would be using to represent "the Force" or what have you in her stories, I doubt that it will be an obvious allegory for God, as there has been nothing to foreshadow that.)

Gryphon

07-06-2005, 06:24 PM

have read harry potter, have seen LOTR, have heard many arguments. i think that as long as you know that magic isnt like that in real life, i dont mind as long as people dont take it too seriously. the bible dosnt say we cant read those stories but it does say that we shouldnt try to mimick witchcraft. i have stopped reading the series for one reason. its dark. i still love LOTR and the first three harry potter books though.

GrayCloak

07-06-2005, 06:28 PM

i have stopped reading the series for one reason. its dark. i still love LOTR and the first three harry potter books though.

Well said, Gryphon.

And I don't think I've seen you post before, so welcome to the sight.

Gryphon

07-06-2005, 06:37 PM

its a usless and tired topic. heard it for years. we all have.

inked

07-08-2005, 11:43 PM

So along comes new wineskins for the new wine, eh! :D Reminds me of the really double edged answers Jesus gave to the folks laying traps for him: sjhould we pay taxes? (They are thinking if he says yes we'll say he's a supporter of Rome and not a true Jew, and, if he says no, we'll say he is a rebel and doesn't support Rome! We HAVE got him, guys!) Jesus says, "Get me a coin. Whose face is on it? ... Give to Caesar that which is Caesar's and to God that which is God's!" Trap failed because the storyteller told them truth! Not the answer they expected, but the truth. So later the conspirators understood that all men had duty to God, ... even Caesar!

Pretty cool in the NT and in HP, I think! :D

Prodigious1One

07-12-2005, 06:35 PM

Harry Potter is full of virtue and Christian relevance. When I was reading Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, all the mystery surrounding Harry made him seem so immense and special. Plus, Harry was treated like a savior for the all the magical world which of course is alike to Jesus and what he means for those who believe in Him.

Also, there was escalated buzz on HP because of religious groups banning the books, etc. and I was feeling guilty for reading them, but I resolved that HP is imaginary and no worse than believing in the magic of Disney or something else so relevant.

Some similarities: Harry, Ron, and Hermione are like the Holy Trinity.
Dumbledore is like God and serves like Harry's father-figure.
Harry is like Jesus.
Voldemort is like the Antichrist.

www.beliefnet.com had better comparisons from three or four years ago.

waterhogboy

07-12-2005, 06:38 PM

holyboy

07-12-2005, 06:42 PM

Some similarities: Harry, Ron, and Hermione are like the Holy Trinity.

I wouldn't consider the Holy Trinity to be Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Rather, I would compare Harry as Jesus and his friends/followers (Ron, Hermione, of course, but also Nevelle, Ginny, Chang, etc) I would think of the Holy Trinity in these books to be Harry, Dumbledore, and the pheonix Fawkes(?)

I said this before, but I think its appropriate to say it again. JKR has stated in an interview by CBC (can't find the site, I promise I will post it when I find it. The site isn't very good) that she would prefer to keep her religion a secret, because she believes that if she revealed her religion, she would give away what would happen in the books.

inkspot

07-12-2005, 06:43 PM

Argggggghhh!! you cant compare Harry to Jesus!!! Jesus was a perfect representation of God on earth. Harry is an insolent, puffed up, arrogant, hormone-engulfed, moody, disrespectful youth who (dont worry inked!!) is learining through experience to become a better person! :D
I have to agree with WHB -- Harry has done too much double dealing to be the Christ figure. While the stories may be building to a vindication of virtue, right now it seems lost in the muddle ...

waterhogboy

07-12-2005, 06:50 PM

I think Harry could be more classed as an average Christian, struggling with problems, Satan's attacks and finding the best way to live etc.....

I agree that Dumbledore could be a God figure

inkspot

07-12-2005, 06:53 PM

I think Harry could be more classed as an average Christian, struggling with problems, Satan's attacks and finding the best way to live etc.....

I agree that Dumbledore could be a God figure
I am hoping this is how it plays out. Right now, Harry is acting kind of moody and mad. But who could blame him...?

Sojourner

07-12-2005, 07:35 PM

Dumbledore could not be a God figure, a pastor maybe but God no. God is perfect, Dumbledore hides things from Harry.

holyboy

07-12-2005, 07:50 PM

Dumbledore could not be a God figure, a pastor maybe but God no. God is perfect, Dumbledore hides things from Harry.

Mind you, God hids things from us too, like what will happen to us in the future, or if he exists.

inked

07-12-2005, 08:07 PM

Tee hee! :)
I think when you are cornered, Inked, you become very confused. I think my verses made you squirm a bit, LOL!

Maybe this is my chance to show you what God has said specifically.

Inked, this is no longer a matter of me and you. It is a matter of what God has said, that you are choosing to ignore and blame on me.

It is not just about what I have said...it is about what God has.

GR22,

Me, cornered? You wish (if you are allowed to do that)! Nope. It's you that are! Backed into a corner of literalist interpretation for HP while contending else for Narnia. That old double-standard incultated by Abanes! (If you analyze that name, you get "a bane", which I hold is indeed most accurate! :p )

I'm not squirming either because I don't have your distorted view of what it is God means. There is such a thing as discrimination of spirits given as a gift of the Holy Spirit, but I see no evidence of it in Mr Abanes or his disciples. So I am ignoring you, not God, GR22 (no matter how highly you think of yourself! :eek: ).

And, I might turn your lack of logic upon you by stating it's not what I think but what God thinks if you disagree with me. However, I realize God may deal differently than I think He should (He usually consults your or Mr Abanes, I gather, to be sure He has the correct understanding of His Book?) so I won't contend that to disagree with me is to disagree with the Almighty.

Meanwhile, for WHB and Inkspot and Sojourner, Harry can be Christ-figure without being perfect, but I have contended that he is Everyman or EveryChristian undergoing life and tribulation. So, if any of us are little Christs, with all our faults, there is no reason why Harry is prohibited from being one (that whole grace thing, right?). In symbolist literary tradition, the characters are not cardboard cut-outs of allegory, but symbols which are fuller and richer than mere allegory. Thus, Dumbledore can be symbolic of God, stand in for God in the storyline, share some of the attributes of God within the storyline, etc ... all withoug being God. This is the advantage of fiction and narrative and symbolism. :D It is only when you ignore that reality and get into the kind of one-to-one identification that GR22 is insisting is the ONLY way to understand anything that you can't have less-than-perfect correspondences.

borntofly

07-12-2005, 09:16 PM

Dumbledore could not be a God figure, a pastor maybe but God no. God is perfect, Dumbledore hides things from Harry.
I've always thought that Dumbledore was JKR's view of God.

inkspot

07-13-2005, 11:34 AM

I've always thought that Dumbledore was JKR's view of God.
Yes, in book 5 when Dumbledore is very distant from Harry who longs to be in his confidence, it made me think of times when God seems very distant in our relationship, and yet the key is to go on trusting, even when the warm and fuzzy feelings aren't there. Harry remains loyal to Dumbledore, even when he feels confused and angry with him -- like David in the Psalms, who was angry and confused, at the same time that he loved and praised God. That is a good lesson if you look at HP books that way, that you can and must continue trusting in God even when you don't feel His immediate presence. Harry would have done better to obey Dumbledore's instructions to practice occlumency -- just as we are better off to follow God's instructions, even when we're mad at Him!

Smog

07-13-2005, 03:27 PM

Mind you, God hids things from us too, like what will happen to us in the future, or if he exists.

Well actually God has shown to us through creation that He exists, and personally I agree with Soj here. Dumbledoore is a mentor, a friend, maybe even a kind of pastor, but not God. Dumbledoore is a great man, but he is just that, a man. I don't think that J.k. Rowling was trying to make his into a God figure, and if she was she didn't do a very good job (just compare Dumbledoore with Aslan, who is a clear picture of Christ).

inkspot

07-13-2005, 04:38 PM

Dumbledoore is a great man, but he is just that, a man.
Heh -- non-believers say that about Jesus, and we know He's more than a man.

JK, Smog. What i wanted to say really was what Inked said: it's not a one to one allegory, nor is JKR saying what if God were an old wizard in another world, the way Lewis said what if Jesus were a lion in another world. But as a symbol, I think Dumbledore could conceivably work as I posted above -- he was right there for Harry when Harry needed him at his expulsion from school hearing, the way God always comes through for us, but he was also very distant from Harry, the way God sometimes lets us walk through a spiritually dry spell so we learn to rely on Him and not on our feelings. Harry failed a bit, by not doing as Dumbledore asked him, but he also succeeded a bit, by remaining loyal to Dumbledore despite his misgivings. Just as we each fail sometimes and succeed sometimes ...

Prodigious1One

07-18-2005, 12:03 AM

I don't know if J.K. Rowling believes in God or not, but I believe that she was aiming to leave religion out of the books. Despite that, God is written in the books a couple of times. I know that Hagrid exclaims, "God" at least once. I don't know if that was just a reaction or a manner of revealing something about the logic Harry's world.

Obviously, Harry Potter is not as "sophisticated" as LOTR and CON in terms of giving reason for why the magic in those stories exists. One may be able to "feel" that Rowling avoids to give reason for that for the purpose of keeping the story. The answers to some questions must be assumed by the reader, like: Why magical communities exist all over the world and how they meld together? What does it mean if a magical person can be born of muggles?--Does that mean that they had magical ancestors who chose to stop using magic and the powers have resurged in their latter descendents?

I don't mean to crush Rowling, but more answers need to be made to give reasons for such things. If she'll be enthused, perhaps she'll write prequels to the current series to answer these extra questions.

I believe that the books probably aren't of enough magical substance to be evil, but they do have the threat of leading one into secular wonder--as was said before--without religious adherence. For that, the books are just in amusement and like the impression of the first film--wonderful, amazing, magical, purely that. Though, there are still the poignant moments where the virtues are presented like love, courage, patience, wisdom, etc.

Christians can have their interpretation and christianize "Harry Potter", but I beleive that the books are open to all without certain religious aim or other doctrine, save for simple good and simple bad with applied practical complexities.

If the books represented a direct offensive against magic, that might be to have the Dursleys be adhering Christians. That could be reversed as well, having the Dursleys representing "supposed" Christianity or religious order and then having them mistreat Harry in the same way giving the reader reason to laud magic and escape from reality into the magical realm.

Finally, I do agree that some things have been rather un-Christian with the use of bad language and the non-repurcussion for Harry's bad acts, though maybe that's a part of Rowling's type of predestination for Harry and to exemplify his relation to his father who was similar in his actions. I do often wish that Rowling used Christian adherence in the books, but she had a certain focus in her creation and that's her will to continue to finish the series as she will.

inked

07-18-2005, 03:12 AM

Prodigious1One,

You might try the HP-lexicon.org and the complete inventory of interview with JK Rowling to find some of the answers you seek, or read the "Would another CS Lewis please step up" thread from the beginning. Also, you might try www.hogwartsprofessor.com and read some of John Granger's works there, as well as LOOKING FOR GOD IN HARRY POTTER.

Problem is that the pagans are having just as many complaints that JKR's not doing the spells properly. Seems she can't please anybody these days, except her readers! (And some of them aren't happy with her recent issue, come to think of it.) My prediction; she will be seen as inevitably Christian as both CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien when the series is finished and appreciated (EVEN IF IT TAKES as long as their works took). They were criticized in the same ways in their day of publication (and even ever since by the persons who objected to magic or magick or majic or majik or etc.....).

outofthisworld26

07-21-2005, 11:24 AM

borntofly

07-21-2005, 02:24 PM

As a side note someone once told me that Tolkien led Lewis to the Lord or maybe it was the other way has anybody else heard anything?
I think its the other way around.

Goldenrod22

07-21-2005, 03:25 PM

Hey everybody!
I just wanted to say a few things to reply to the previous posts. I disagree with the belief that says that Harry Potter has no real magick in it. The foundations on which the books were based stems directly from JK Rowling's personal beliefs that magick and witchcraft are NOT evil. For example: The belief that 'all magic is neutral' comes from the Wiccan faith (this is where the terms 'black magic' and 'white magic' come from). Wiccans believe that since magick is neutral, it is in the power of the individual to decide how to wield it. Harry and company follow this belief, as do their opponents. The 'strawman argument' that many have used to excuse this behaviour is that the Lord of the Rings and Narnia do the same thing. Not true. In the case of the magic in LOTR and Narnia, the good guys use 'good magic' (this is magic that is divinely good) and the baddies use 'bad magic' (this is inherently evil).
Do you see where I am going with this? The good guys in LOTR and Narnia NEVER use bad magic. When they attempt to use it (as in using the Ring, which is evil) they are affected in a bad way. The bad guys do not attempt to use good magic, because they can't. It is like poison to them.
Sorry, Potter fans. Harry AND the bad guys both use the same neutral magic, though they claim to use it in different WAYS.
It is like two people sharing one apple, except for the fact that they both know the apple is poisonous. Regardless of who is 'right' about the apple being poisonous, and regardless of the fact that one of them may stop the stupid behaviour of eating poisoned apples in the future, they have BOTH EATEN THE FRUIT. The plain fact is that the apple WAS poisonous. They were both wrong.
I believe that ANY participation in something to do with witchcraft (whether it means reading tea leaves, speaking through someone to communicate to the dead, or even saying 'pretend spells' to 'curse' an enemy of yours) is WRONG, and should be avoided. This may be construed as being 'too strong' a stance on an issue where many people wish to keep 'just on the line', but I believe that it witchcraft is not something to even play around with.
It is like those people who own pit bulls. It may be legal, but is it right? Look how many children have been brutally maimed after someone's pet pit bull got loose. Those dogs were bred to be fighting dogs, and though some may make good pets, they are NOT good by nature (by genetics). Witchcraft may not 'bite' some kids...but think of the ones that have already been 'bitten'.
Does that mean that pit bulls (or Witchcraft) are harmless, just because not EVERY kid has been 'bitten'?
Obviously not. And I'm willing to stand up with those people who have had enough of the millions who flaunt that Harry is an 'oh-so-safe' series.

Goldenrod22

07-21-2005, 03:37 PM

Hello everybody! :)
Just wanted to say that I think that some of you are a teeny bit mislead (in my opinion). To compare the three characters in HP to the Holy Trinity is rather far-fetched. If there are those who believe in Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God as being like Ron, Hermione, and Harry...that is kind of strange. I think the reason for this is that since there is no God present in the books, it is like grasping at straws to find a different one. Is Harry the god? No, too imperfect. Is it Dumbledore? Same here. Aslan, in Narnia, was perfect...even sacrificial.
I believe that if there was to be a 'God' in HP, it would exist in the minds of all of the characters. Have you all heard of the atheistic saying (that Disney frequently uses) 'Believe in yourself'? How about 'Believe in your heart'?
Sorry, but I refuse to believe that YOU are your own God.
SPOILER*****There is NO God in the Harry Potter books*****. ;)

inkspot

07-21-2005, 04:25 PM

I think the reason for this is that since there is no God present in the books, it is like grasping at straws to find a different one. Is Harry the god? No, too imperfect. Is it Dumbledore? Same here. Aslan, in Narnia, was perfect...even sacrificial.
I agree, I can't see Harry & friends as the trinity, but see my post above about the difference between Narnia and the Potterverse --Lewis imagined a world where Christ appeared as a lion, but that's not the basis from JKR started, she's not saying, "What if God were an old wizard headmaster in another world" but that doesn't rule out symbolism -- not saying, "Dumbledore is God," the way Aslan is Jesus, but saying, "Dumbledore represents God in this symbolism..." I don't know if that is the case, but I wouldn't rule it out. Even in Narnia, God is not mentioned, and no one "prays" to Aslan, you know? So there need not be an explicit on-to-one allegory to make the symbolism work.

GrayCloak

07-21-2005, 04:40 PM

Hey GR22 I hope your not too suprised by the fact that I agree with you! I have failed to see any biblical imagry in HP. I have read some literature on the supject (arciles books ect) and I have to say that I heartily disagree with them. (Not meaning to offend anyone who sees Biblical imagry in HP, but I don't see it anymore in the 'Potter world' then in Dragonlance, D&D novels and all other forms of fantasy.) I think a lot of Christians who read the books just want to be able to justify them to those who would frown on the series.

But the books do have some good morals to them, (a value of friendship, loyalty, love and sacrifice) that make them ressonate within Christian as well as secular circles. Many of the themes in the books that make them so popular also alow Christian's to relate.

holyboy

07-21-2005, 05:43 PM

For example: The belief that 'all magic is neutral' comes from the Wiccan faith (this is where the terms 'black magic' and 'white magic' come from). Wiccans believe that since magick is neutral, it is in the power of the individual to decide how to wield it. Harry and company follow this belief, as do their opponents

However, at Hogwarts, the school does not teach the pupils how to use "dark magic" or curses. Furthermore, the Unforgivable Curses (torchuring, [Cracus, or something like that] killing [Avada Kamara, the green light thing that killed HP parents] and the controling spell [Invandamus, something like that) are outlawed because they are "dark magic" and should never be used because it does control, torchure, and kill people. If magic was neutral, spell wouldn't be outlawed, and the actual act of killing would be tried in court, instead of using the spell. If magic was neutral, then the students would be taught to curse their opponents on a deeper level to be used to defend themselves. They are not taught these spells, however, for the belief that these are evil spells, and should never be taught.

I believe that ANY participation in something to do with witchcraft (whether it means reading tea leaves, speaking through someone to communicate to the dead, or even saying 'pretend spells' to 'curse' an enemy of yours) is WRONG, and should be avoided. This may be construed as being 'too strong' a stance on an issue where many people wish to keep 'just on the line', but I believe that it witchcraft is not something to even play around with.

I hold different beliefs then you are this subject. We both agree that witchcraft is wrong. However, and I have voiced this before, doing the acts of witchcraft just for fun, or for a joke, is not wrong, as long as you don't take it seriously. If you are going to outlaw witchcraft over fear that they may believe that they are doing something real, then why not outlaw LOTR and HP? Kids might believe those are real stories, and might wait for that Hogwarts letter, or fear rings because they might hold the true power. It is obvious that we shouldn't outlaw these things because of the fear of belief, and the same goes for witchcraft. What you have to do is sit down with the people doing witchcraft (kids and adults) and explain to them that this is all pretend, and witchcraft isn't real. Let them pretend they are witchs, in fact, I encourage it, for it uses their imagination, but explain to them that it isn't real.

Obviously not. And I'm willing to stand up with those people who have had enough of the millions who flaunt that Harry is an 'oh-so-safe' series.

While your at it, why don't you outlaw LOTR or Narnia, or every fantasy book, or every book, because of the fear that they will believe in what is happening? You won't. They are great books, that bring a different element to the table that other books won't bring. The solution is easily solved by explaining to the kids that it isn't real, and if it persists, which it rarly does, then start questioning them on why they think it is real, and then explain how those arguments are ungrounded.

inked

07-21-2005, 07:04 PM

I have only read the first two Harry Potter Books and as an adult Christian I have found them to be helpful. When I was a camp counselor a few years ago I did a devotional from on of the hp books(I can not recall exactly what I spoke about but I do remember that the girls that I was speaking to enjoyed it and understood the point that I was trying to make). So jenny is right Christians should be able to discern right from wrong, fantasy from fiction. Harry Potter, LOTR, and the Narnia books, have a lot to offer us as Christians and some people should keep their eyes and ears open.
As a side note someone once told me that Tolkien led Lewis to the Lord or maybe it was the other way has anybody else heard anything?

Tolkien was instrumental in leading Lewis to the Faith. You can find an account of this in SURPRISED BY JOY and letters of CSL to Arthur Greeves and to his brother Warren. Tolien also mentions it in his LETTERS. In fact, Tolkien's comment was that he had gotten Lewis as far from atheism as the Church of England but could not get him further! :D

inked

07-21-2005, 07:25 PM

And, I see Goldenrod22 is at it again with the inability to distinguish. He really is very persistent.

Magic is Harry Potter is equivalent to technology, just like it was for Tolkien's Elves. And GR22 and those like him are in the same position as the superstitious hobbits who, unlike Sam, never learned to distinguish the application of technology by elves from that by Sauron. Thus, all the technology of elves and the minions of Sauron were lumped together by those hobbits in the Shire and environs as bad. Not that Saruman, who fell from the proper use of natural technology into mere technocracy, helped very much I'll grant you.

If you trouble to read Tolkien's LETTERS (there is an index to assist those who prefer to be specific!), you will find that his discussion of magic conveys very specifically these ideas of the Elves' natural giftedness. Now he certainly acknowledges that those gifts could be misused and were by various specific Elves, for which I refer you to the Silmarillion.

I know this is a reach for GR22 and those who think like him, and they are certainly entitled to think as they please and certainly do freely exercise their misunderstanding, but magic in HP is symbolic of technology. It is not related to wicca or invocational magic summoning demons or similar modes of the practice of subjugation of the world to self by outside forces. For that I refer you to Machiavellian uses by persons properly doing exactly what GR22 abhors, FAUST as exempla gratia (-ium?).

Magic in HP is a natural gift which some people have (rather like a gift for mathematics and physics and music and engineering). Those persons may employ it to good or ill, for self or on behalf of others, to maintain peace or to wreak havoc, in short, properly or improperly. Think atom bomb technology and you'll get a rough idea.

Also, though GR22 and similarly minded individuals insist volubly and loudly that all magic is the same, this is not true. Period. That's like saying all technology is like DDT. The argument won't hold up on the face of it. It certainly won't hold up under a very cursory examination of magic in the English and Western civilization literary materials. In fact, under the terms of GR22 and like-minded folk, you must condemn TCON, LOTR, The Wizard of Oz, and various factories making items like chocolate. O, I know they try to make such a differentiation but that line of reasoning is known as begging the question unfortunately. So sad that they miss the differentiation which Lewis and Tolkien and Frank Baum et alia clearly make. But, if you only have a very wide brush and black paint, what can you do?

holyboy666,
Very good argumentation, by the way. Logical, distinguishing, succint. Excellent work! (But can we trust it since you have a 666 in your name? And, to reflect the variety of manuscript evidence on that, shouldn't it be 616 or 636? :rolleyes: Just curious, of course! :p

holyboy

07-21-2005, 07:30 PM

And, to reflect the variety of manuscript evidence on that, shouldn't it be 616 or 636? :rolleyes: Just curious, of course! :p

Yes, the devil's number has been discovered to be 616, not 666. However, I will keep my name for two reasons. One, I have had this screen name for a very long time, and I don't wanna change it for memories. Two, more people assosiate the devil's number with 666, not 616, from what I have discovered talking to my friends.

inked

07-21-2005, 07:43 PM

What GR22 lacks is movement beyond concrete thinking to symbolic thinking. It is a serious defect to the appreciation of literature.

GR22 if you want a true allegory by CS Lewis, go read THE PILGRIM'S REGRESS. It is an allegory in the true sense of that world, by a master of the genre second to Bunyan, in my humble opinion. TCON is not an allegory. It is a "supposal" and symbolic outworking of the concept in NON-allegorical terms per the author himself.

Wallis

07-22-2005, 12:43 AM

There will always be people who will want to burn those who are not "like them" just because they are different in appearance, thought, word, and deed.

GrayCloak

07-22-2005, 08:52 PM

Hey, here's a new articles entitled "Potty About Potter" by my favorite Christian writer. I thought some of you guys may be interested in it.

http://christian-civilization.org/potter.html

Glued

07-22-2005, 09:38 PM

Well I believe the difference between them and the reasons that more Christians dislike Harry Potter is that LOTR is more about a quest and fighting temptation. The things that Frodo went through were tough but he did get through it in the end with help, this, in a way reflects some things in life. Harry Potter is totally about witchcraft. If you know the ten commandments then you will know that more of them are broken in harry potter than LOTR as so with other Christian guidlines. And also it plays a little bit on your conscience depending on who you are. If you really think about you might get bad "Vibes" from reading Harry Potter maybe not so when reading or watching LOTR.
Anyway. There really isn't a right or wrong thing to do because its kind what you belive.
I hope this helped.

Narnian Jedi

07-23-2005, 01:46 PM

Hello Glued - You've made this point very well. I've never read any HP books for many of the points you posted above and the general storyline just doesn't appeal to me. So far, none of my kids have any interest in reading them, either (I'd rather they don't). If they change their minds and decide to try them out, I'd read it with them as a comparative lit project. This way we can find opportunities to incorporate Biblical values and keep our faith the focus of the story.

Goldenrod22

07-24-2005, 06:11 PM

Hey everybody! :)
I think you all still have LOTR and Narnia confused with Harry Potter. The magic is not the same. I have made this point SO many times already that I feel it would almost be redundant to repeat myself. However...let me try once more.
LOTR magic has clear delineations between who uses what magic. Here is a diagram to be SUPER clear.
Gandalf: Is a naturally 'magical' being (as Tolkien described him, he is like an angel sent to help the non-magical beings in Middle Earth), does NOT 'boost' his magical talents or enhance them, and does not use magic designated as evil (like the Ring).
Harry: Is a 'born wizard' (parents were 'magical' and thus, so is he, as if genetic), DOES 'boost' his magickal talents at Hogwarts and attempts to enhance them, and DOES use magick designated as evil (like spells that cause your enemy to become stiff as a board...form of revenge).
Elves in Middle Earth (Note: Sam Gamgee did not look on these elves as 'evil', but in truth looked at them as 'wonderous' beings that he was amazed at): Are a race of naturally magical people (as Tolkien described them, they are highly artistic, nature-loving beings), do not boost or enhance magical powers, and NEVER use magic designated as evil.
Cave Trolls, Hobbits, Dwarves, etc. (in Middle Earth): Are not magical beings. They cannot learn magic, nor can the magical beings teach it to them. Any attempt to do magic causes these beings to have adverse effects.
So you can see, there is a clear emphasis in LOTR that the 'magical' and 'non-magical' beings do not blend as seamlessly as those in HP.
Did you know that Tolkien even disliked using the name 'wizard' to describe Gandalf? But the translation in the Elvish language came as meaning 'wise', and as Tolkien could not easily describe this in a different name, he went with 'wizard'.
Holyboy: I do not think that 'black magic' is solely confined to murder, torture, and such. Maybe those are JK Rowling's rules for black magic, but I would say that some of the 'lesser' cruelties that Harry and friends practice are not to be ruled out as harmless. I mentioned earlier the spell that Harry cast to make one of his 'enemies' go as 'stiff as a board'. Would this be defined as torture? No, I don't think so.
Another thing that I think has been mentioned is that 'witchcraft, when treated as pretend, is alright'.
Did you read my post in which I mentioned some sins as being like poison?
Little by little, you get used to the 'tiny' sins that seem to cause no harm. Why not play with a Ouija board? Why not dress up your child as a witch or devil? Why not (when you're a little older) try to find out your zodiac sign and read your horoscope?
Just so long as you keep reminding yourself...it's just make believe.
Keep on sippin' that delectable brew.

Goldenrod22

07-24-2005, 06:18 PM

Hey Inked! Love ya. Unfortunately, what you lack is moving from symbolic thinking to concrete thinking.
Are we playing a game where you make as many snide remarks as possible, and I put up with it?
Fun!

holyboy

07-24-2005, 07:55 PM

We obviously disagree on many issues, so let us address these issues one by one

Hey everybody! :)

Hi Dr. Nick!

I think you all still have LOTR and Narnia confused with Harry Potter. The magic is not the same.

100% agree. The magic is different because these are three different books, and although CSL and Tolkein did edit eachother's books, they still thought up of the ideas in the book, just like JKR. The magic in LOTR with my understanding is in a select few, and from the information brought forward by yourself (as I have not read LOTR, only seen the movie) they are naturally gifted with this magic. However, the same could be said for HP. He does have the ability to use the magic. He just needs to learn how to perform that magic. I'm sure the elves had to learn how to perform their magic properly, because they are people, too.

LOTR magic has clear delineations between who uses what magic. Here is a diagram to be SUPER clear.
Gandalf: Is a naturally 'magical' being (as Tolkien described him, he is like an angel sent to help the non-magical beings in Middle Earth), does NOT 'boost' his magical talents or enhance them, and does not use magic designated as evil (like the Ring).
Harry: Is a 'born wizard' (parents were 'magical' and thus, so is he, as if genetic), DOES 'boost' his magickal talents at Hogwarts and attempts to enhance them, and DOES use magick designated as evil (like spells that cause your enemy to become stiff as a board...form of revenge).
Elves in Middle Earth (Note: Sam Gamgee did not look on these elves as 'evil', but in truth looked at them as 'wonderous' beings that he was amazed at): Are a race of naturally magical people (as Tolkien described them, they are highly artistic, nature-loving beings), do not boost or enhance magical powers, and NEVER use magic designated as evil.
Cave Trolls, Hobbits, Dwarves, etc. (in Middle Earth): Are not magical beings. They cannot learn magic, nor can the magical beings teach it to them. Any attempt to do magic causes these beings to have adverse effects.
So you can see, there is a clear emphasis in LOTR that the 'magical' and 'non-magical' beings do not blend as seamlessly as those in HP..

These are two different worlds. In HP's world, there is a clear distinction between magic folk (wizards & witches) and non-magic folk (muggles) the only group that crosses this line are the Squibs, who do contain some magical power, but do not have the full ability of magic. But that is another day.

In reponse to HP getting his magic through genetics, I have three things to say. First: I do not know if you are familiar with the term "Mudblood" from HP. It is a swear word, used in the wizard world to insult those who are muggle born, saying they have dirty blood. These attacks are aimed at those who are wizards and witches who were born from a muggle family. There are many wizards in the wizarding world who are muggle born. The fact that these witches wizards come from a Muggle family shows that wizarding may not be genetic, that there is another force out there that makes wizards and witches. Furthermore, Squibs are born from a magical family but they are not wizards. Genetics may not play a part in being a wizard, but who knows?

Second: You say in your post that elves are naturally have magic. So, are they born with it? Yeah, probably, thats my impression. Is it passed down through genetics? Well, yes, because only elves have the magic they have. You cannot be man, and have powers, and become an elf. Likewise, to my knowledge, there has never been an elf that hasn't had elf powers. We can only conclude that these traits are passed from genetics

Third: Elves may be born with magic, but how do they know how to perform these feets of magic? Do they naturally know? Maybe. But why couldn't they have been taught how to use their magic? They need to be taught how to move water and what not?

Did you know that Tolkien even disliked using the name 'wizard' to describe Gandalf? But the translation in the Elvish language came as meaning 'wise', and as Tolkien could not easily describe this in a different name, he went with 'wizard'.

Interesting, but remember, he is a creative person, and he wanted to do it his own way, not the easy way. Furthermore, if you are saying that Gandalf isn't suppose to be a "wizard", but something else, then how can you compare Gandalf to HP? Thats like comparing an apple with a banana that looks like an apple

Holyboy: I do not think that 'black magic' is solely confined to murder, torture, and such. Maybe those are JK Rowling's rules for black magic, but I would say that some of the 'lesser' cruelties that Harry and friends practice are not to be ruled out as harmless. I mentioned earlier the spell that Harry cast to make one of his 'enemies' go as 'stiff as a board'. Would this be defined as torture? No, I don't think so.

The murder, torture, and control spells are the most deadly and severly punished. That is why I mentioned them.

Case 1: A police officer practices shooting the gun in case he needs to use the weapon

Case 2: A police officer shoots at another person, because he is being shot at.

Case 3: A police officer shoots another man to show the world that the police have control.

Which of the following Cases is bad, or is wrong?

Answer: Case 3. The police officer was killing for no reason. The gun, however, is not evil in Case 1 because it isn't doing anything, or in Case 2, because it could have saved the police officer's life.

Now, replace police with wizard, and shooting a gun with performing a spell. Are Cases 1 & 2 still wrong? In my opinion, no.

Another thing that I think has been mentioned is that 'witchcraft, when treated as pretend, is alright'.
Did you read my post in which I mentioned some sins as being like poison?
Little by little, you get used to the 'tiny' sins that seem to cause no harm. Why not play with a Ouija board? Why not dress up your child as a witch or devil? Why not (when you're a little older) try to find out your zodiac sign and read your horoscope?
Just so long as you keep reminding yourself...it's just make believe.
Keep on sippin' that delectable brew.

If you are going to say that ouiji boards are bad, and if you play with them they are evil, no matter what, then kiss bye to your HP books, so long to your LOTR books, audevoir (my lame attempt at french) to Narnia. Aloha (good-bye version) to everything that een mentions magic, because they are evil, and kids might believe it is real, and read them and play with them. While we are at it, why not outlaw fiction? Kids might believe these stories are fact, and that is BAD!

You can't do that. The Ouiji board is not the problem. Neither is the Narnia books, HP books, or LOTR books. They are inanimate objects that can't think, feel, or sin. The sin is in the person who believes they are real. The sin is when a person plays with a Ouiji board, and because the board told them to hurt their little brother, they have to hurt their little brother. If they play with the toy, then it is just a toy. When it escalates beyond that, it is a sin. But don't outlaw them over fear, let the kids play with the toy, let them have fun. As long as its a toy, it won't matter. There is poison that can happen, but taking away the board WILL NOT SOLVE ANYTHING in fact, it will make the kid want to play with is even more, because they don't have the oppritunity to play with the board. Just let them play, get bored, and let that be the end of it.

Tarkheena_Finduilas22

07-25-2005, 08:48 AM

Actualy, there is a difference between magic and "magick" I think that the Harry Potter books could be OK. It's just a matter of how the person whos reading them, interprits them. If you're a good christian, then the books are probobly no more then a story in a non existant world, like narnia.

The only people that use witchcraft in the Narnia books are Witches and Wizards, like the HP stuff... sooooooo.

Basicaly, I should probobly read the books to present a case against them. I've read a book called "Harry Potter and the Bible" It tells alot about whats wrong in the books and movies.

:example: Harry and the Teachers break rules, just so Harry can be on the quidditch team.

I recomend the book.

Tarkheena_Finduilas22

07-25-2005, 08:54 AM

Ah ah ah...

JK Rowling's ex-husband says that she us making 7 books because she believes 7 is a "Magical, Mystical number" In other words, lucky pretty much. and the church does NOT uphold that. I don NOT think Harry P. should be related to the bible in any way. If it was, Harry would probobly be related to Christ and Harry does alot of bad things like breaking rules. no no no no no no no no. DON'T DO IT!!

waterhogboy

07-25-2005, 12:08 PM

I have to say Holyboy, although I agree with your point of view, I dont think the gun analogy works...

I would say guns are wrong whatever situation you put them in.

I also dont agree with the Ouji board comment. They really ARE evil and there is no situation where you could say that the ouji board itself isnt bad - cos its sole purpose is for contacting evil spirits.

waterhogboy

07-25-2005, 12:13 PM

I think the 7 number is actually the number of school years in a British High School. I think the ex-husband (take note of the EX!) might be a little biased in what he says. ;)

inked

07-25-2005, 04:17 PM

See my comments in the HBP-Spoiler threads on the mystical, magical, philosophical, and literary uses of the number 7, and WHILE AT IT, 8 ! There is a strong tradition in literature of these numbers and it's just too bad that modern Christians have lost (in large part) the connections of these numbers (except of course the infernal associations of 666)!

inked

07-25-2005, 04:22 PM

On the basis of the failure of perfection as the criterion for what constituted Christian literature, I think you perfectionists are gonna have to face up to the loss of the Bible AND Narnia's chronicles and Middle Earth. It doesn't exist!

Remember the draught of fishes which is like the kingdom of heaven! Only after the net is brought to shore are the good fish and bad fish separated! OOhh, Jesus, are there really bad fish mixed with good? YEP! until the end of the age, guys. So be like the dude who found a treasure in a field and who went and sold all he had to buy the field! :cool:

Narnian Jedi

07-25-2005, 06:01 PM

Basicaly, I should probobly read the books to present a case against them. I've read a book called "Harry Potter and the Bible" It tells alot about whats wrong in the books and movies.

:example: Harry and the Teachers break rules, just so Harry can be on the quidditch team.

I recomend the book.

Hi Tarkheena_Finduilas22, That's the plan I have if my kids ever decide they want to read those books. The book you mentioned (Harry Potter and the Bible) sounds interesting, I'll check it out, thanks!

Iron Morgoth

07-25-2005, 06:34 PM

Well, I'm a Christian, I believe in JESUS as my God and saviour, and I also love the Harry Potter books and movies. I don't see any problem at that.

waterhogboy

07-26-2005, 07:30 AM

Oh - I know 7 is perfection and all - but I also think the reason she did 7 is cos its set at a High School, and a High School has 7 years, ie. one book for each year.

I might be pushing the boat out a bit with that conclusion but I dont know!??!

Goldenrod22

07-29-2005, 12:51 PM

Hello Tarkheena and Waterhogboy! :)
It is great to talk to you two. I read in one of Richard Abanes' books (either 'Fantasy and your family' or 'Harry Potter and the Bible'---can't remember which, sorry!) that Rowling stated herself that her reason for making seven books in the series was definitely because of its ties to witchcraft. This was her original intention, as she has stated, from the beginning.
Did you know that a childhood friend of hers told the press that she would frequently play that she was a witch? She would dress up, playing that she was casting spells, etc.

Oooh! I just found this little section in 'Fantasy and your family' about real children doing real spells...read some below!

Goldenrod22

07-29-2005, 01:07 PM

Scholastic has a kids website (with a link to Harry Potter) that is to promote their new book series T*Witch.
Kids submitted a series of spells they wrote (because they practice witchcraft) in the 'Spellbook' section of the site. Please note that the following examples are a bit disturbing.

Hannah, age 11, FL: Howling winds; Listen twins; Winds that frighten; Let your hearts lighten; The rain that falls; And the simple squalls; Put your powers together; Let them be gone forever!

Rain Spell-Jaron, Age 13, IN: Air, Water, Earth, Flame. Give us storm. Bring us rain. My/our power, magick, help our deed, let us have what we need.

Against Being Grounded by Parents-Falynn, Age 12, PA: Spin a frisbee counter-clockwise on your finger and say: 'Let me loose, let me out. Swing around and turn about. Sentence lifted, Spirit gifted. Grounding over without a doubt!

These are just three cases out of twelve in the book, which do not deal with the entire amount on the site.

These are serious kids, they are not reciting poetry or attempting to just pretend. They probably recite their spells in all seriousness. Can you believe that kids so young are doing these things?
But there is one ray of hope in all of this. Despite witchcraft becoming more and more acceptable, there are those who look at Harry Potter with a disinterested eye. I, personally, was amazed at seeing the preview for the upcoming 'Goblet of Fire' movie. If I was younger, not as informed on the issues of HP, and new to all of this, I would probably be a HP fan. But I can not go back to thinking that it is harmless, when I know better now.

As Frodo says: "How can I pick up the threads of an old life? How can I go on in the same way, when in my heart I begin to understand?"

Goldenrod22

07-29-2005, 01:26 PM

Hey everybody! :) :) :)
Holyboy, I have to respond to a few of the things you said.
1. Why do you say, Hello Dr. Nick?
2. In LOTR, the elves know naturally what to do (as concerns magic). To them, it is as natural as breathing. The things they can do, they are born with knowing how to do. They don't boost their skills to become more powerful. You very gently claim that "Harry does this...but it is not wrong...uh...and...it is not wrong cause the elves do it." That is kind of a circular argument.
3. I do not agree with you on the point that as long as witchcraft is treated as 'pretend' than it is 'pretend' in your mind.
The real world does not work this way. When you call out 'Bomb!' in the airport, pretending that there is a bomb, you will not simply walk away giggling. Probably the security officers will want to have a little chat with you.
When you read a graphic romance novel, though fiction (pretend, isnt it?) the images it sears into your mind might taint your idea of real romance, real Christian romantical love. After all, pretend or not, it is expressing a very disturbing image of un-Christian 'activity' (trying not to be too explicit here) that should not be played around with. Many women have had unfaithful affairs with other men because of these types of books.

In this same way, Ouija boards invite (I agree with Waterhogboy here) playing with something that REAL spiritists use in their activities to summon REAL spirits (I think these are not good spirits, but evil). You can not have it both ways. It is either a child's toy, or something that adults use for evil purposes.
Or both.

This is so wrong! Grrrrr! It makes me so upset.

jalapeno45

07-29-2005, 01:27 PM

Hi, i'm somewhat new here and I just have to say that totally agree I with Goldenrod22 and Narnian Jedi and their beliefs on Harry Potter.

Hope96

07-29-2005, 01:42 PM

I also dont agree with the Ouji board comment. They really ARE evil and there is no situation where you could say that the ouji board itself isnt bad - cos its sole purpose is for contacting evil spirits.

I agree completely. You can't just innocently play with a Quiji board....as previously stated, the whole purpose is to "contact" spirits. How can a person play with this w/o trying to contact spirits. What would be the purpose?

July_Whatever

07-29-2005, 10:53 PM

im not sure if anyone has mentioned this.. i didn't bother to read all of them.

but you know how Hogwarts has holidays (ie Christmas, Easter)? How could they celebrate those when they study wtichcraft? I mean, isn't the church like.. against that? Idk. I guess if the school is just open to all religions.. why dont they celebrate Chuanuka (sp?) or Kwanza... why dont they fast or something?

lol..

holyboy

07-29-2005, 11:11 PM

but you know how Hogwarts has holidays (ie Christmas, Easter)? How could they celebrate those when they study wtichcraft? I mean, isn't the church like.. against that? Idk. I guess if the school is just open to all religions.. why dont they celebrate Chuanuka (sp?) or Kwanza... why dont they fast or something?

Even non-believers of Christ celebrate Christmas and Easter. It just does not have the symbolic value it does to Christians. They probably don't celebrate Kwanza, or other holidays, because they aren't as polular as as Christmas or Easter. JKR didn't want to use book space with celebrating all the different holidays.

pacifiquesea

07-29-2005, 11:12 PM

I can't participate in discussions like this without becoming unnecessarily emotional and somewhat irate, but if you're against Harry Potter you should give "Looking for God in Harry Potter" a shot. It's by John Granger, a Christian dad who homeschools and was against Harry Potter. If you aren't afraid of having your opinion changed, he makes a good argument.

Johan 72109

07-30-2005, 04:07 PM

I think people should maybe not get quite so stressed over this argument... After all, we're arguing over a book here, pure and simple. So let's all not get too upset guys?
:)

None of what I'm going to say is an attempt to belittle or upset anyone - it's all entirely my opinion, which is very often wrong. :)

First of all, about the books being evil. If JK Rowling was a satanist writing the books, then I'd be concerned and advise against reading them. However, as it is, she isn't a satanist.

If you ban Harry Potter, what else do you want to ban? The vast majority of science fiction needs to go, because it all teaches evolution is right, and some is completely against the idea of the existance of God. A great deal of fantasy must go, because of the magic within it. All dystopian novels, such valuable educational devices, must go, because kids might end up thinking that totalitarianism is good. The list goes on. However, I think that books, just like any other form of creative art, need to be seen carefully. I wouldn't let a very young child read the HP series, for example. Before one reads books, or watches films, one needs a sense of right and wrong, and needs to be able to distinguish between the two. Hehe, this'll sound cheesy, but approach books with caution... :p

Now, to argue against the opposite of the HP books being evil - them being a force for Christianity (no idea escapes my ranting wrath :D ). I personally think that the idea of HP being thought of as a christian series is rubbish - as just ONE argument why, J.K Rowling uses blasphemy in her books, particularly book 6. I can't reconcile this with an idea of the series being inherently Christian in the same why as the Narnia series is. Sure, we're taught morals by the books, but that's not the same as them being Christian.

Anyhoo, that's all from my oversized gob for now...

waterhogboy

07-30-2005, 04:09 PM

I missed your oversize gob Johan. Welcome back!!! I'm with old Johan on this one I'm afraid. Back on the good old middle road!!!

Ithilien

07-30-2005, 05:13 PM

(How wonderful to be back again! and welcome to everyone that I don't now!)

I can't understand why there is such a huge debate over Harry Potter. It is simply fiction that celebrates the triumph of good over evil, using witchcraft (without its sinister connotations) as the means. HP was meant to be entertainment, relating the adventures of a good, kind hero.

Green Knight

08-01-2005, 09:12 PM

holyboy

08-01-2005, 09:25 PM

Everyone here knows that Christmas and Easter based on pagan holidays, right? Early Christians took to celebrating the holidays of the Pagans to help bring in coverts, but then you all probably already knew that.

To my understanding, Easter and Christmas were already celebrated before the dates were changed for the pagan converts. I am unfamiliar with Easter, but with Christmas the date was pronounced by Pope Julius I to be on Dec. 25 to replace the pagan rituals of "Return of the Sun" Before this date, Christmas was celebrated on many different days from region to region.

waterhogboy

08-02-2005, 01:57 PM

Easter isn't based on a pagan festival, it's celebrated where it is because of the Jewish passover...

Goldenrod22

08-05-2005, 12:38 PM

Hey everybody! :)
I still disagree with a few of you. I understand how you really like the way the books are written (they are compelling to some people who enjoy fantasy---I would probably read them if I did not know the info on them), but I can not see why it is that you want to take a 'middle road' stance on it.
I mean, the target range of the books are for young kids. They are the ones that will ultimately read them, watch the movies, and buy the toys. Why then do you think that this is an issue that only harms adults?
It is not fair that we should stand up for something that may not affect us as adults, but will possibly effect little children who practice the same things.
You would not allow a little kid to play around an open bonfire, even if YOU had the knowledge that fire BURNS. The little kid, just fooling around, does not know yet that fire burns if he hasnt been told. This is not to say that the child is stupid!
But this is to say that the parent, who is irresponsible to let their child try to 'touch' the fire, IS stupid.
They have no reason in the world to let their child experiment, and THEN to get hurt afterwards.
But is this not what we are doing?
Something we well know can hurt us, even with a little contact (witchcraft, sorcery, etc.) turns into something that is alright.

P.S. Go to Vision Forum.com to see an excellent article on Harry Potter entitled 'Harry Potter and the Lavender Brigade'.
It shows a very interesting side to the argument (if the sin of witchcraft is alright in the realm of fiction, is the sin of homosexuality? Which side, 'evil' or 'good' would really be good if the sin was bad?)

holyboy

08-05-2005, 12:51 PM

I really want to hear your arguments, but you haven't read the books. All of these opinions about HP from you are from other people who have read the books. I really want to hear your opinion, but it bugs me when people try to defend a point on a book, or a movie, or anything, without reading/watching the point in question. I challenge you, all of you you haven't read the book, and yet comment on it, to read HP with an open-mind, without judgement, and come up with your own opinion. Find out why this book is so popular, and give yourself ammo in the point you are trying to defend. Give yourself an oppritunity to come up with this opinion that you hold, and find passages to defend it. From what I have read, I believe you can read the book without becoming contaminated with its magic, so please read it. I look forward to hearing your opinion after you read the book. And I can tell you, your opinion will be even more respected if you read the book. Guarenteed.

waterhogboy

08-05-2005, 12:55 PM

Well said - I once tried to say a programme I hadn't watched was terrible and told all my mates they were stupid for watching it. From the reports I's got it sounded awful!!

However, I ended up watching it one night and realised it was actually the funniest programme I'd seen in a while and had to apologise to them all for making my ungrounded comments! :o

Green Knight

08-05-2005, 01:06 PM

Easter isn't based on a pagan festival, it's celebrated where it is because of the Jewish passover...

It is a combination of Passover and a pagan festival called "Oster" (spelling/). The latter was a celebration of renewal, that later was combined with the celebration of the Anointed One's resurrection.

In actuality, the word that was translated into "witch" really ment "poisoner".

GR22: What's your stand in folk magic traditions?

waterhogboy

08-05-2005, 03:06 PM

Really!??! I never knew that!

Green Knight

08-05-2005, 06:49 PM

I hope you are not being sardonic.

waterhogboy

08-07-2005, 10:11 AM

No!!! Honestly........ like I said, I thought it was just cos of the Passover. Sorry if you took offence!!!

*Stupid computers and there inability to determine tone of voice!! :mad: *

Sorry mate.....

inkspot

08-10-2005, 11:33 PM

M'kay, spells are bad. But for the record, these spells the kids are making in the post above aren't anything like the spells in HP, which never call on any "powers" and seem far removed from Satan, their more like science than witchcraft.

Goldenrod22

08-19-2005, 04:16 PM

Hi! :)

I disagree.

HP: "The Standard Book of Spells" (textbook)
Real world: "Book of Spells" (1997) by Arthur Edward Waite

This particular argument is kind of a moot point. It is easy enough to say that any magic is justifiable as long as it has a 'scientific' base.

Whatever that means...that is like saying that a potion is not real on the basis that it is a 'scientific' mixture of flouride and some other compound. Or that because real magickians (note the 'k') use books on real medicinal herbs, they are justified in practicing what they do.
How can a Christian, reading the direct scripture verses that condemn sorcery (AND divination, AND witchcraft) still put their nose up in the air and say,
"You know what, God? I couldn't care less. The words that you said in the Bible are old, outdated. This is the age of acceptance! Get on the cultural bandwagon, God. Accept and embrace the differences (and likenesses) we have with practicing witches! And if you don't, well, that's not my problem, Lord. Sorry."

Now, I am almost 100% sure that a lot of you are not this snooty when it comes to why you accept reading the books.
But what message are you sending when you ignore the very verses that spell out what God wants for your minds and hearts?

I have not had time to read each verse in the selection below (I found them in a small booklet about this topic), but know that they are not MY words anyway, but those from the Bible.

*******WARNING! The following may cause some discomfort in Potter viewers! Look 'em up!********

Ex. 22:18
Lev. 19:31
Lev. 20:6
Lev. 20:27
(one of the best!) Deut. 18:10-12
1 Samuel 15:23
1 Samuel 28:3
1 Samuel 28:6,7
1 Chron. 10:13
2 Chron. 33:6
Isaiah 2:6
Isaiah 8:19
Acts 16:16-18
Acts 19:19
Gal. 5:19-21
Rev. 21:8, 22:15
1 Timothy 4:1
James 2:19
1 Timothy 4:1

P.S. I was saddened to notice that nearly every time I typed in 'Goldenrod' (in an attempt to find an avatar) it brought up an occultic website link. This is because they use this as one of their 'magick' items. How disheartening to see one of God's amazing creations used in the occultic practices.