Predestination or Free Will [Archive] - The Dancing Lawn

Euphrates

06-06-2005, 12:44 AM

Yay! Philosophical discussions! Yay!

I say: both.

Predestination (or Determinism) and Free Will are not mutually exclusive, meaning we do not have to choose between one or the other, we can have both! I'll probably do a senior thesis on this subject to get my degree.

Here's how it works: before everything was created and only God existed, He had the choice to cause an effect. The effect He would choose would start a chain reaction of causes and effects. Being "all-knowing", God could see what would happen in each causal sequence (chain reaction) forever. He knew every detail for every causal sequence possible. In His wisdom, God caused an effect that started a causal sequence that God had predetermined. Get it?

So, God does not make you do things. You have free will to do whatever you want, but God already knows what you'll do. You can still be held praiseworthy or blameworthy for your actions. We all have the ability to be saved. "If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." -Romans 10:9 God does not choose who will do this and be saved. Nor does He prevent others from doing this and being saved. It's your choice.

If you say "Who cares? My life has been determined already by God. There's nothing I can do about it." That's your choice. But make no mistake, you do have the choice.

edit cuz i spelz rong

tgraveline

06-06-2005, 02:34 AM

oh this is an exciting topic indeed. I agree mostly with Euphrates on this one too. Just want to add to it a bit. We have free will, take for example that god calls you to do something, you have the choice to do it. If that is to talk to someone he puts on your heart or go do something else. Now where the predesination comes in, is when we refuse to do as god asks, and then the trouble starts for the person. He finds a way to push you in that direction as he means for that to be something of your life. Some people will get three things from god to do, they will do two of them, but the third they will refuse, now you don't do that for one, because he will corner you into whether you like it or not then, lol. He has a sense of humor i tell you. So that is how i see it. But this is an addition to eurphrates more than just stand alone.

tg

inkspot

06-06-2005, 11:37 AM

If you say "Who cares? My life has been determined already by God. There's nothing I can do about it." That's your choice. But make no mistake, you do have the choice.
Very good! This is exactly my understanding, or belief. God is all-knowing, so He knew who would choose Him and who would not, but that is not to say He has already decided not to save you. If you feel you want to come to Christ, come right on, because He wants you!

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). God wants everyone to come to repentance! Because He knows who will and who won't, that doesn't mean that He has already doomed some people, it is still our choice.

Smog

06-06-2005, 12:36 PM

Very good! This is exactly my understanding, or belief. God is all-knowing, so He knew who would choose Him and who would not, but that is not to say He has already decided not to save you. If you feel you want to come to Christ, come right on, because He wants you!

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). God wants everyone to come to repentance! Because He knows who will and who won't, that doesn't mean that He has already doomed some people, it is still our choice.

I understad your point (however, I do disagree) but if God knows who will be saved and who will go to hell, then nothing that anyone can do will change that. If God knew from before the creation of man that certain men were evil and would go to hell, then those men will go to hell. If they chose to repent and became saved, then it undermines the authority of God's omniscients(sp?).

Also, Inkspot, would you say that God loves everybody and wants them all to be saved?

inkspot

06-06-2005, 02:58 PM

Also, Inkspot, would you say that God loves everybody and wants them all to be saved?
Yes, I think the Scripture I quoted says so. In the Message Bible, it says, "God isn't late with his promise as some measure lateness. He is restraining himself on account of you, holding back the End because he doesn't want anyone lost. He's giving everyone space and time to change" (2 Peter 3:9). He doesn't want anyone lost.

1 John 4:16 also says, "And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him." And Romans 5:8, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

And further, Jesus commanded us to love ALL people -- if He did not love them all, why would He require us to?

"You're familiar with the old written law, "Love your friend,' and its unwritten companion, "Hate your enemy.' I'm challenging that. I'm telling you to love your enemies. Let them bring out the best in you, not the worst. When someone gives you a hard time, respond with the energies of prayer, for then you are working out of your true selves, your God-created selves. This is what God does. He gives his best--the sun to warm and the rain to nourish--to everyone, regardless: the good and bad, the nice and nasty. If all you do is love the lovable, do you expect a bonus? Anybody can do that. If you simply say hello to those who greet you, do you expect a medal? Any run-of-the-mill sinner does that. (Matthew 5:43-47, The Message).

inkspot

06-06-2005, 03:10 PM

If God knows who will be saved and who will go to hell, then nothing that anyone can do will change that.
God knows who will be saved and won't, but WE don't know! Any one of us could decide to follow Jesus and if we confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in our hearts that God has raised Him from the dead, then we shall be saved (Romans 10:9).

All will go according to God's plan, no doubt, but anyone can come to Christ! Don't anyone think that it's already been decided you are going to hell -- you can be saved!

legolas

06-06-2005, 04:02 PM

Well, I'd say that he new the desicions that we would make , although he did not decide for us to sin or not to, he gave us the choice. He does not want all to go to hell.

Euphrates

06-06-2005, 04:18 PM

Smog, buddy. The view you seem to be advocating is exactly the one I addressed and Inkspot quoted:If you say "Who cares? My life has been determined already by God. There's nothing I can do about it." That's your choice. But make no mistake, you do have the choice.Think about it this way. Your eyes are open. Keep them open. God knows when you will blink, but He does not make you blink. Blink whenever you want with the knowledge that you chose to blink at that moment and no one made that decision for you. God saw you blink at that moment before He created the universe. That does not mean you didn't have the choice to blink at another time.

Our actions affected God's knowledge before we were created. God's knowledge of our future does not affect our actions. It's a matter of causality. We do not act in such a way because God saw it, but God saw it because we act in such a way.

Your objection is that a person who God has seen not making the choice to be saved cannot do anything to change his/her fate. Right? This missed the point. This person's decision to be saved or not determined God's knowledge, not the other way around.

Smog

06-06-2005, 04:41 PM

First I will answer Inkspots point about love:

Malachi 1:2-3 says, "'I have loved you' says the Lord. But you say, 'how hast thous loved us?' 'Was not Esau Jacob's brother?' Declares the Lord. 'Yet I have loved Jacob; but I have hated Esau.'"

To Euphrates:

First, who has control, the creature or the Creator?

Also, I will add these Bible verses in favor for predestination (it's easier if I cite the passages and people look them up, rather than typing them myself):

Romans 1:18ff~
Romans 8:28-30~
Malachi 1:2-3~

Euphrates

06-06-2005, 05:17 PM

What do you mean "in favor of predestination"? We're in favor of predestination along with free will. You can have both.

The creature has control if given control by the Creator, which we have.

Maybe this'll help. If you could go back in time to just before Hitler was born and live your life without interfering with their "timeline", aside from the issue of predestination and God, would Hitler have the choice to not grow up and kill many Jews? You've seen his future. You know what he will do, but he still has the ability to choose a different path for his life. He won't, but that's his own fault.

God knew what you would do. You did it. You chose your own path. He allowed you to make those choices. He didn't make you choose those choices.

inkspot

06-06-2005, 06:39 PM

Well, I'd say that he new the desicions that we would make , although he did not decide for us to sin or not to, he gave us the choice. He does not want all to go to hell.
That's right, Leggy. He doesn't want anyone to go to hell, and although He can see who will, that doesn't mean He made the choice for them, He simply saw the choice they would make, as Euphrates said:
Your objection is that a person who God has seen not making the choice to be saved cannot do anything to change his/her fate. Right? This missed the point. This person's decision to be saved or not determined God's knowledge, not the other way around.

inkspot

06-06-2005, 06:49 PM

Malachi 1:2-3 says, "[I]'I have loved you' says the Lord. But you say, 'how hast thous loved us?' 'Was not Esau Jacob's brother?' Declares the Lord. 'Yet I have loved Jacob; but I have hated Esau.'"
I think the Bible establishes that God hates evil, and in the Old Testament, there is a lot of evidence that He hates evildoers, too! But remember that in the Old Testament, the law was the only way to salvation, so millions were already excluded (as far as we know) and the blood of Christ had not yet been shed to cover our sins, so that all of us were without excuse, sinners in the hands of an angry God! But love broke through in the New Testament, because of Christ's sacrifice EVERYONE now had the potential to be made acceptable to God, and the rigidity and (if you will) cruelty of the law was swallowed up in the most excellent love of Jesus! Blessed be Him!

"Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 54-57).

(I know that doesn't apply here, but I got carried away with the wonder and power of our Savior! :o)

inkspot

06-06-2005, 07:00 PM

I looked up your verses, Smog.

Romans 1:18 says, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." Agree: God's wrath is against ungodliness.

Romans 8:28-30 says, "That's why we can be so sure that every detail in our lives of love for God is worked into something good. God knew what he was doing from the very beginning. He decided from the outset to shape the lives of those who love him along the same lines as the life of his Son. The Son stands first in the line of humanity he restored. We see the original and intended shape of our lives there in him. After God made that decision of what his children should be like, he followed it up by calling people by name. After he called them by name, he set them on a solid basis with himself. And then, after getting them established, he stayed with them to the end, gloriously completing what he had begun." (The Message Bible, I turn to it when the KJV is a little tough for me). Agree: God will complete the work He has begun in those of us who have chosen Him.

The Malachi one I already mentioned in my last post. What I hear Paul saying in Romans is not that some are chosen by God for hell, but that those who do not choose Him will go to hell.

And as for who is in control, Euphrates answered that: when God gives us control, we are in control.

Smog

06-06-2005, 07:05 PM

I understand what Euphrates and Inkspot are saying, however you can't have Predestination and Free will because they contradict each other. Free will says that we make our own choices and our own destiny. Predestination says that our choices were pre-determined (hence the name predestination) by God and that our "fate" is final.

Remember that we can only be saved by God's grace. By His will and power, God may choose to withold His grace from certain men, therefore sending them to hell. In the same way, God may choose to give other men grace, so that they will be saved. I think that we would agree that the only way for a man to be saved is if God changes his heart. Predestination says that there are certain men whom God chooses not to change.

Inkspot, in the Old Testament, the Law was not the only way to salvation. If that were true, then everybody before the death and ressurection of Christ would be damned because none of us can perfectly keep the Law. That was the purpose of the sacrifices, to atone for the peoples sins. Also, God is just as loving in the Old Testament as He is in the New. Think of all the times in which Israel sinned, yet God withheld His righteous wrath on them until 721BC and 586BC (the dates in which the Northern and Southern kingdoms were taken captive and destroyed).

Euphrates, can you give me some scriptural references that would support your view about free will and Predestination?

Turambar

06-06-2005, 07:48 PM

(Btw, I'm really happy that you started this thread, because I find this topic fasinating)

Me too! It comes up in philosophy classes all the time, as I'm sure Euphrates knows all too well.

I understad your point (however, I do disagree) but if God knows who will be saved and who will go to hell, then nothing that anyone can do will change that. If God knew from before the creation of man that certain men were evil and would go to hell, then those men will go to hell. If they chose to repent and became saved, then it undermines the authority of God's omniscients(sp?).

Here's where I have to disagree with you, and I'll explain why. I don't think that many people truly understand what our free will really is. Here is my perception. Free will is God removing himself from being the cause. As has been already of pointed out, if God created everything and knew the outcome, he has predestined all the outcomes... UNLESS he allows another will to make "changes". By allowing us to have a free will, God has given us the ability to actually choose our own future. To do this, he must remove himself from being the cause of our fate, allowing us to make the choice instead. It cannot follow that we have a free will of our own if God has predestined everything. Either God has created our choices for us, or he has given us a will of our own. This is what I think it means to be made in God's image.

If what I suggest is true, then the punishment of hell is actually a punishment instead of the place that God chooses to put people "just because". Also, God's statement "Well done good and faithful servant." (Matthew 25) would be justified because the servant has actually made a choice of his own.

So, while I agree with almost everything Euphrates has said, I do have to disagree slightly with this (and maybe I just misunderstood):

In His wisdom, God caused an effect that started a causal sequence that God had predetermined.

I would say that God also allowed other wills to shape the outcomes of the sequence.

Going back to Smog's paragraph I quoted above, I feel the need to point out something VERY important: omniscience does not necessarily entail presedtination. This is key to understanding what I am trying to say. If God, in his almighty wisdom and power, truly allowed us to actually make choices for ourselves, he can still know what all of those choices are going to be. God can know every choice that we will make, and still not have caused us to make those choices. So, God's omniscience is not undermined by the free will of his created people.

Remember, God is not bound by time. He does not "predict" the future. He simply knows all. So, God knowing my choices before he created me is not much different than a parent knowing what his child ate for dinner AFTER the fact (assuming the child had a choice in the matter).

This person's decision to be saved or not determined God's knowledge, not the other way around.

This is exactly what I am trying to say; thank you. Also, God's omniscience is not undermined by this statement either, because God is still all-knowing from the very beginning. I've been typing this up as I read through the thread, and I see that you (Euphrates) seem to think almost exactly as I do. Sorry if I repeated anything you said!

I know this is hard stuff to wrap your brain around, but a few good philosophy courses might cure that.

By the way Smog, and anyone else for that matter, try using www.biblegateway.com if you have the passages but don't want to type out the text. It has a great Bible search!

Euphrates

06-06-2005, 08:34 PM

Euphrates, can you give me some scriptural references that would support your view about free will and Predestination?Can you give me some biblical support for your view that we do not have free will? It's not a Scriptural point, Smog. This is philosophical. You can have predestination and free will at the same time.

You choose your own path. God decided to let you.

Now, free will and necessitarianism are contradictory. But necessitarianism and predestination are not the same. Necessitarianism says that God had no choice but to start this causal sequence, and you have no choice but to act accordingly. Every action is necessary and could not have been another way. But predestination says that God allowed you to fulfill the path you would choose. The key words here are: you would choose. You are predestined to make certain choices. Key: you still get choices.

Everything that is, exists and is the way it is because of the first effect God caused. God did something. Our free will is an effect of that.

Smog, if you really want biblical support for my view, it's gonna have to be Scripture with philosophical analysis. Here it is briefly: we are held accountable for our sins (for the wages of sin is death), right? Well, how can we be held accountable for things we have no control over? Can you blame a robot for carrying out a funtion you programmed into it? No. Same here. We must have free will to be praiseworthy or blameworthy for our actions.

Hope96

06-06-2005, 08:40 PM

we are held accountable for our sins (for the wages of sin is death), right? Well, how can we be held accountable for things we have no control over? Can you blame a robot for carrying out a funtion you programmed into it? No. Same here. We must have free will to be praiseworthy or blameworthy for our actions.

Good analogy!!!

inked

06-06-2005, 10:09 PM

Euphrates and I agree! *much rejoicing in heaven by angels and saints* :D

Here's how I put it on another forum, same discussion:

Re: Predestination?

extremely condensed version:

God exists in eternity in an unbounded now.
Time exists within eternity within God's unbounded now.
All moments in time are present to God in His unbounded now.
Mankind lives in time and experiences time in a sequential mode.
Man's opportunities are presented to him within time.
Man's choices occur in time (past, present, future).
Man's present is his point of contact with eternity.
God observes in His unbounded now Man's choices.
From Man's perspective God's perception of choice involves time
as experienced by man.
From God's perspective Man's choice is free.

It is only when we force God's everpresent now into the way we experience time that we get that whole business about predestined versus freewill as absolutes. It is perfectly correct for us or St Paul or Jesus to discuss God's activities in time using words that express our experience. It is perfectly incorrect to say that God can only act in our experentially limited mode; the Blessed Trinity is creating and acting at all points in our spectrum of being simultaneously. Therefore He can and does answer petitionary prayer within the constraints of our existence and knows all time as equally present to Himself.

Those CS Lewis readers will recognize the attribution. If errors are made in haste, they are my own.

Terse enough for you, EU?

Warrior-Poet51088

06-06-2005, 11:32 PM

K, I, sadly, simply do not have the time to address the issue properly tonight, but will try to do so tomorrow...

However,...

Euphrates, Smog has posted some Scriptures that support his position, but regardless, you have been asked to provide a Biblical basis for your argument: in refusing to do this, you've weakened your position--you sound as though you don't have support for your argument!

Please realise that this is not an ad hominem attack; I'm trying to address a problem within the cases being presented in this thread, which leads me to my next (and, I think, final) point...

Those of you advocating the idea that man "makes his future," you (I believe) have committed a logical fallacy in your argument: While you claim that (1) God is sovereign, (2) man can make decisions that change the course of history.

OK, so, lemme see if I understand what you're saying: God, though sovereign, has given man the ability to "make his future," correct?

If that's the case, then man has some power that God doesn't--God is no longer sovereign.

Euphrates

06-07-2005, 12:55 AM

:D That's great, Aragorn.

Scripture cited by Smog
Romans 1:18- I'm not sure what this has to do with predestination. Really. Some analysis would be nice.
Romans 8:28-30- Says we (or some of us?) are predestined. But doesn't say we do not have free will.
Malachi 1:2-3- Again, I need some analysis because I don't see anything about predestination or free will.

As I understand it, Smog's position is that we are predestined and do not have free will. Those passages, however, do not support that position. I do not think you can only use Scripture to proove one position over another in this case, because it is so philosophical. You must use Scripture with some philosophical analysis, which is exactly what I did. I know you didn't have much time, but instead of claiming that my position is weak, you could try addressing my argument a little.

I don't see the logical fallacy. I don't know what you mean by "make his future". I'd actually say that man fulfills his future. If that's the case, then man has some power that God doesn'tWhat power? And consider this: if God has the power to "make [our] future" but chose to give us that power also, how does this violate God's sovereignty? You just haven't given enough analysis yet.

Capstick

06-07-2005, 02:54 AM

Hi everyone,

I see you've already gotten off to a good start without me :)

First, lets define what "predestination" actually is, because I think some people are confused. The doctrine of "predestination" states that God predestined some people to salvation, and some to damnation - This is the position that I will be defending - however, its not quite "fatalism" which seemed to be what Smog was proposing earlier.

Originally Posted by Euphrates
This person's decision to be saved or not determined God's knowledge, not the other way around.

Perhaps you could clarify Euphrates - the way this sentence is structured, it does undermine God's omnipotence, because you're saying that something that WE did caused God's actions, i.e., there is something outside of His control. If something that we do is what determines God's actions, how can He be all-powerful? If God "gives up" part of His Sovereignty, He is no longer omnipotent.

Romans 8:28-30- Says we (or some of us?) are predestined. But doesn't say we do not have free will.

Scripture cited by Smog:

Romans 8:28-29

This verse definitively states that 1) God called some, according to His purpose; 2) He also predestined some to be conformed to the image of His son.

Since "predestination" and "free will" cannot be the same thing, this verse cannot support free will - after all, you claimed that our decisions determine God's actions. However, this verse cleary shows that some things are predestined by God, and thus not affected by our actions.

The other Scripture reference that I'd like to bring up is Romans chapter Nine, but especially verses 11-23.

Verses 10ff states (exact quote): "And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, 'the older shall serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob have I loved, but Esau I have hated." (NKJV)

...Allright, its 10 minutes to 11:00 P.M. where I'm at, and I think I need to call it a night. Sorry I didn't even deal with any of the posts made by Inkspot, Inked, or Turambar - I didn't forget you guys, I'm just sleep-deprived ;) I'm sure the discussion will have picked up quite a lot before I can log on again tomorrow night, lol...

Euphrates

06-07-2005, 04:32 AM

Perhaps you could clarify Euphrates - the way this sentence is structured, it does undermine God's omnipotence, because you're saying that something that WE did caused God's actionsNo, something we would do effected God's knowledge. I am not saying that "something we did caused God's actions". I never talked about determining God's actions (which you repeatedly misrepresent me as saying).

I suppose you can say that God predestined us because He allowed us to follow the path He knew we would choose. God's role was starting the causal sequence and knowing what would happen. This does not impact our free will.

Capstick, you (and others) make the mistake of thinking that any support for predestination is automatically against free will. This is incorrect. God knows what you will do, but that does not mean you do not have choice to do different.

If we have free will, can God know what we will do? If your answer is "no", I'm afraid you are limiting God's power and violating His sovereignty. Therefore, according to the standard of sovereignty, predestination and free will must not be mutually exclusive (ie. they must be able to exist at the same time). And if you're gonna say that we do not have free will, you'd better do more than just support predestination. Try addressing my argument about praise and blame from the 2nd page.

Smog

06-07-2005, 01:59 PM

Warrior-Poet51088

06-07-2005, 02:15 PM

K, I'm with Smog (thus far) and Cappy (as usual!) on this, and, since my 9-year-old cousin is here, I don't have time to watch this thread as closely as I'd like to (seeing as I've always believed in a Fatalistic form of Predestination, but have recently begun to change my view), I'll be rude and pose another question without answering Euphrates' (I really am sorry, but I would like to let y'all adress this, since I won't be able to).

For those in favour of Free Will, do you believe that our lives have been laid before us like a road: there are forks in it, and we will make the choice to go down certain paths, but God already knows what choices we'll make, so He's been able to alter the paths in front of us to lead us to Him? Do you understand my run-on senetence? For English Majors: Do you want me to die?

Please discuss this, and I *might* be able to check in later this week to see what y'all have to say about this. Feel free to PM me, and then I can give you my email address for any further discussion you may want (Euphrates, please take advantage of this so that I can respond to your points as protocol demands, since it would be easier for me to check my email and see what you have to say than it would be to come here and read through the day's posts).

inked

06-07-2005, 04:19 PM

repost, since it seems to have been missed by all at the end of the last page!
*sniff, sniff*

Euphrates and I agree! *much rejoicing in heaven by angels and saints*

Here's how I put it on another forum, same discussion:

Re: Predestination?

extremely condensed version:

God exists in eternity in an unbounded now.
Time exists within eternity within God's unbounded now.
All moments in time are present to God in His unbounded now.
Mankind lives in time and experiences time in a sequential mode.
Man's opportunities are presented to him within time.
Man's choices occur in time (past, present, future).
Man's present is his point of contact with eternity.
God observes in His unbounded now Man's choices.
From Man's perspective God's perception of choice involves time
as experienced by man.
From God's perspective Man's choice is free.

It is only when we force God's everpresent now into the way we experience time that we get that whole business about predestined versus freewill as absolutes. It is perfectly correct for us or St Paul or Jesus to discuss God's activities in time using words that express our experience. It is perfectly incorrect to say that God can only act in our experentially limited mode; the Blessed Trinity is creating and acting at all points in our spectrum of being simultaneously. Therefore He can and does answer petitionary prayer within the constraints of our existence and knows all time as equally present to Himself.

Those CS Lewis readers will recognize the attribution. If errors are made in haste, they are my own.

Terse enough for you, EU?

Euphrates

06-07-2005, 04:42 PM

Smog, I have not ignored your references. You can't proove that we do not have free will based on Scripture alone. You have been using philosophy to support your claim that we don't have free will. So I don't see why I have to use more Scripture than you, or less philosophy than you in order to proove my point.

In case you missed it, here's my argument from Scripture. Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death", and just think about every passage that talks about how bad sin is. Based on this, we see that we are blamed for our transgressions/sins. But how can we be blamed for something we had no control over? For more analysis read the original argument toward the bottom of page two.

Also, Romans 1:20 talks about how humankind has no excuses for their behavior and again in Romans 2:1 it says "You, therefore, have no excuse". This seems to indicate that we have free will, because a lack of free will would be a pretty good excuse for our actions.

On to your points about Scripture. I'm 100% sure you are misrepresenting Scripture through your analysis. Let me explain. Romans 1:24 (I'm not sure why you say 1:18ff and then quote 24) says "God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts". This does not mean that God made them sin. You said "God made then do evil". But that's not what it says. The people had sinful desires in their hearts and God gave them access to it. He didn't force them to do anything. And, under the proper reading of this verse, it supports the claim that we have free will. The passages about hating Esau only show that God knows all, not that we are not free.

Also, the doctrine of predestination (also known as Determinism) existed before Christ's birth.

Smog

06-07-2005, 05:27 PM

Inked, if nobody adressed your post, I'll gladly do it in a sec, but seeing that Euphrates adressed my scripture verses I would like to post back to him first (also, you're too brilliant for me to understand :D)

Smog, I have not ignored your references. You can't proove that we do not have free will based on Scripture alone. You have been using philosophy to support your claim that we don't have free will. So I don't see why I have to use more Scripture than you, or less philosophy than you in order to proove my point.

I think that we should try to use scripture exclusively from now on, because Philosophy is not absolute, while we both agree that the inspired scriptures are. Therefore, I will try to prove the absence of free will through scripture alone.

In case you missed it, here's my argument from Scripture. Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death", and just think about every passage that talks about how bad sin is. Based on this, we see that we are blamed for our transgressions/sins. But how can we be blamed for something we had no control over? For more analysis read the original argument toward the bottom of page two.

You keep quoting Romans 6:23, so I'll do the same; For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
This verse supports my position, because it says that salvation is a gift from God, not something we choose.

Also, Romans 1:20 talks about how humankind has no excuses for their behavior and again in Romans 2:1 it says "You, therefore, have no excuse". This seems to indicate that we have free will, because a lack of free will would be a pretty good excuse for our actions.

I mentioned Romans 1:24 because it says that God "gave them over," meaning that God allows men to sin. When we reject God He rejects us and allows us to sin in the most wicked and vile ways therefore bringing greater judgements on oursleves. Also, Romans 2:1 talks about judging others. Paul is addressing the hypocricy of men who condemn some by the Law while excusing their own sin.

On to your points about Scripture. I'm 100% sure you are misrepresenting Scripture through your analysis. Let me explain. Romans 1:24 (I'm not sure why you say 1:18ff and then quote 24) says "God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts". This does not mean that God made them sin. You said "God made then do evil". But that's not what it says. The people had sinful desires in their hearts and God gave them access to it. He didn't force them to do anything. And, under the proper reading of this verse, it supports the claim that we have free will. The passages about hating Esau only show that God knows all, not that we are not free.

First, you didn't address Romans 8:28 which is clearly talking about God choosing some to be saved. Also, if you look at the passage provided by Cappy (Romans 9:11). Also, I said 18ff, because I wanted to establish the context of the verse.

Now, I have found this verse that destroys the Idea of free will,

*Exact quote from the NASB*

Romans 9:14-20
What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed thoughout the whole earth." So then, He has mercy on whom He has desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You say will say to me "why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder "Why did you make me like this." will it?

inkspot

06-07-2005, 06:17 PM

Inkspot, in the Old Testament, the Law was not the only way to salvation. If that were true, then everybody before the death and ressurection of Christ would be damned because none of us can perfectly keep the Law. That was the purpose of the sacrifices, to atone for the peoples sins. Also, God is just as loving in the Old Testament as He is in the New. Think of all the times in which Israel sinned, yet God withheld His righteous wrath on them until 721BC and 586BC (the dates in which the Northern and Southern kingdoms were taken captive and destroyed).
That's what I meant: only the law (which includes the laws about sacrifice) could save. God is loving, always, but the expression of His real love for us came through in Christ. (For that matter, I don't see that wiping His own people out -- even as alast resort -- portrays His love for them, in the OT.)

inkspot

06-07-2005, 06:21 PM

I looked up your verses, Smog.

Romans 1:18 says, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." Agree: God's wrath is against ungodliness.

Romans 8:28-30 says, "That's why we can be so sure that every detail in our lives of love for God is worked into something good. God knew what he was doing from the very beginning. He decided from the outset to shape the lives of those who love him along the same lines as the life of his Son. The Son stands first in the line of humanity he restored. We see the original and intended shape of our lives there in him. After God made that decision of what his children should be like, he followed it up by calling people by name. After he called them by name, he set them on a solid basis with himself. And then, after getting them established, he stayed with them to the end, gloriously completing what he had begun." (The Message Bible, I turn to it when the KJV is a little tough for me). Agree: God will complete the work He has begun in those of us who have chosen Him.

Like Inked, I think you guys missed one of my numerous posts. I still do not see these Scriptures supporting predestination?

inkspot

06-07-2005, 06:30 PM

It is only when we force God's everpresent now into the way we experience time that we get that whole business about predestined versus freewill as absolutes ... It is perfectly incorrect to say that God can only act in our experentially limited mode; the Blessed Trinity is creating and acting at all points in our spectrum of being simultaneously.
This is Scriptural and a great point,
Psalm 90:2, "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." God is everlasting -- how can you force Him into linear time?

This is what you do when you say God determined everything before I was born, or even God SAW everything "before I was born," in God's time you are being born, you are growing up, you are making choices, you are getting old, you are dying, you are, you are, you are, you are -- so the whole question of what God knew and when He knew it is silly. To God, what you are doing is what you have done and what you will always be doing (how else can He be from everlasting to everlasting?), but that in no way denies that you chose to follow Him or you don't, He doesn't make you.

inkspot

06-07-2005, 06:44 PM

Euphrates, can you give me some scriptural references that would support your view about free will and Predestination?

How about Joshua 24:15?
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
It seems to imply we can choose God, or choose something else.

Or Deuteronomy 30:19?
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live."
God is pleading with us to choose life! Why would He do that, if the choice were already made?

And Hebrews 3:6-8.
"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts..."
This seems to imply that we can choose to hold fast out confidence in Christ orlet go, that we can harden our hearts or stay the course.

For that matter, why would God admonish us not to harden our hearts, if He had already determined that we would do so? (I know that's philosophy and not Scripture.)

inkspot

06-07-2005, 06:53 PM

if God knows exactly what we will do, then we don't really have free will... If something else happens, then God would be wrong and therefore, He is no longer an All-Powerful Being.
Of course, nothing happens that is outside God's knowledge, but I still do not see how God's knowing what will happen equates to God making it happen?

Hebrews 4:12-14 seems to imply that while God knows EVERYTHING, we still have the choice whether to hold fast to our profession of faith or to let go:
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Turambar

06-07-2005, 06:58 PM

I think that we should try to use scripture exclusively from now on, because Philosophy is not absolute, while we both agree that the inspired scriptures are. Therefore, I will try to prove the absence of free will through scripture alone.

I don't have much time to reply to a lot, but I saw this and just had to clarify what I think Euphrates is trying to do.

First of all, rules of logic are absolute, and this is what Euphrates means by philosophy. Every time you derive a fact about anything from scripture, you are applying logic in some manner.

You are not going to find anything in scripture that says, "You have no free will, your destiny has been made for you" or something saying the opposite. Euphrates is trying to explain that we can indirectly use scripture with a little brainwork to come to conclusions about free will.

For example, consider the following:
Punishments and rewards are only given to a person when he or she chooses to do something (commit a sin, confess Jesus as Lord, etc). Therefore, God would not punish or reward us if we could not make choices. Within scripture, Hell is often presented punishment and Heaven is often presented as a reward. Therefore, we can make choices that affect our eternal destiny.

I know it's not the most well-formulated argument, but I am using simple logic to arrive at the conclusion that we must have the freedom to make choices. My conclusion is based on what I know about scripture, even though the conclusion itself may not be clearly stated within scripture.

inkspot

06-07-2005, 07:02 PM

I think that we should try to use scripture exclusively from now on, because Philosophy is not absolute, while we both agree that the inspired scriptures are. Therefore, I will try to prove the absence of free will through scripture alone.
I have tried to back up my position with Scripture, but now I must revert to philosophy, sorry!

It seems to me that predestination I am not reponsible for my actions, but I hate when people who are doing mean things excuse themselves on the grounds that "It's just my way," or "I can't help myself."

If we say that God predestined everything, then we are perforce saying that God was mean and unfair because He made all the mean people act that way, they are not responsible. And yet Psalm 97:2 says, "Righteousness and judgment are the habitation of His throne." How can God claim to be righteous and just if He is out making people behave badly?

Smog

06-07-2005, 07:13 PM

I have tried to back up my position with Scripture, but now I must revert to philosophy, sorry!

It seems to me that predestination I am not reponsible for my actions, but I hate when people who are doing mean things excuse themselves on the grounds that "It's just my way," or "I can't help myself."

If we say that God predestined everything, then we are perforce saying that God was mean and unfair because He made all the mean people act that way, they are not responsible. And yet Psalm 97:2 says, "Righteousness and judgment are the habitation of His throne." How can God claim to be righteous and just if He is out making people behave badly?

Who are you, O man to question God? (sorry, but I've always wanted to say that :D).

Just wondering, did anyone read Romans 9:14ff? It says very clearly that we don't choose God, but that He chooses us. If you haven't yet, read the verse and then come and post your thoughts. I think that there is no way to get around the message; God will save and **** whomever He wishes.

Euphrates

06-07-2005, 07:15 PM

This verse supports my position, because it says that salvation is a gift from God, not something we choose.
You can choose a gift, Smog. A gift is somethng you can reject. God presents it, we choose to accept it or not.
it says that God "gave them over," meaning that God allows men to sin. When we reject God He rejects us and allows us to sin
Yes, allows us to sin. ALLOWS us. He lets us. He doesn't force us. We can choose not to sin. God allowing us to sin isn't part of rejecting us.

Romans 9:14-20 does not say or imply that we do not have free will. "God hardens whom He wants to harden" shows that God can affect us, not that He controls our actions. Then the questions comes up: Why does God blame us if He has hardened some of us? And the response is basically: How dare you question God!? He can do whatever He wants!

Let's go back to the beginning, where God has yet to cause anything and He is looking over the infinite number of causal sequences that He could create through causing a single effect. The one He chose was the one we're in right now. But He could have chose one where everything is identical to this causal sequence, but Hitler was not "hardened". In this way, it can be said that God hardened Hitler (same with saying that God chose some to be saved). But, more properly, God allowed the hardened Hitler that existed in potentiality before time to exist in actuality within the causal sequence. This is what Romans 9:19-20 is talking about. How dare we question God's decision to create the causal sequence we are in!? This has nothing to do with free will. God did not program us to do certain things, but He knew we would do certain things and has allowed us to actually do them.

We should clarify what is meant by "free", especially when we talk about free will. I take it to mean that we are allowed to make our own decisions and are not programmed to act and think in certain ways. Anyone disagree?

If you really want to focus on Scripture alone for this discussion, I've got a bunch that'll straight destroy the claim that we have no free will. Ready?
Exodus 18:22 "...they can decide themselves."
Exodus 18:26 "...they decided themselves."
2 Chronicles 24:4 "...Joash decided to..."
Matthew 27:7 "So they decided to..."
Luke 23:24 "Pilate decided to..."
Exodus 12:5 "The animals you choose..."
2 Samuel 24:12 "This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you."
Isaiah 66:4 "I also will choose..."
Jeremiah 3:14 "...I will choose..."
Acts 15:22 "Then [they] decided to choose..."
Genesis 13:11 "So Lot chose for himself..."

Need I go on? If there's no free will, there's no decisions or choices to make.

Smog

06-07-2005, 07:27 PM

Ok, I COMPLETELY 100% disagree with what you said about Romans 9:14ff. I'm not even sure where you came up with your responce (not trying to be nasty). It says very clearly that God hardens the hearts of certain men, just for the point of destroying them. Paul is saying that we cannot question God when He decides to do so. God hardened Pharaohs' heart, so that He could punish him. He "controled" the actions of Pharaoh.

As with the verses you put down, I understand where you're comming from, however, from the standpoint of predestination, God knew what men would choose, and He Predestined that they would choose it. After this has happend, the only thing left was for the men to actually choose (if you understand what I'm saying). Predestination says that when men choose, it is because God, in His divine plan, willed them to do so.

inkspot

06-07-2005, 07:46 PM

Smoggy, you didn't have any answer to the Scriptures I listed that imply we have a choice.

Also, I still do not get why God's knowing everything means that He has made all the choices for us already?

Look at Inked's and my posts on the nature of time (mine has Scriptural background, too), and see if you can explain to us why you feel that God's knowing all means that He made all the choices in advance for us?

Maybe I am just slow to catch on to what you are saying? :confused:

Euphrates

06-07-2005, 08:21 PM

First, it doesn't say anything about controlling Pharaoh's actions, only hardening him. Second, I agree that God has the power to control our actions and that He sometimes does (but not often). Even if I were to agree that God controlled Pharaoh's actions, this does not proove that God always controls all our actions.

Yes, God knew what men would choose. And He started the sequence that allowed them to make those decisions. God does not "will" all our actions and decisions (where's you biblical support for this?).

It sounds almost like you're conceding that we have the power to choose (which is clearly supported in Scripture). The power to choose goes hand-in-hand with free will. the only thing left was for the men to actually choose (if you understand what I'm saying). I do not understand what you're saying if you say "choose" but do not mean "choose". I agree that God knows what you're going to do, and all you have to do is actually choose to do it.

Arguments For Free Will That Have Been Passed/Ignored

1) Inked and Inkspot's arguments about God existing outside of time.
2) Most of the Scripture that supports choice.
3) My point that denial of free will based on God's sovereignty, actually violates His sovereignty.
4) The entire argument that free will and predestination are not mutually exclusive.

Hope96

06-07-2005, 08:24 PM

I just want to say, I'm an right on with what Inkspot has said in this thread. I enjoy reading these threads and seeing people debate back and forth more so than actually getting involved in the discussion myself. However, I do agree w/Inkspot's last post. No one here seems to disagree that God DEFINITELY knows (or knew) who would choose Him and who would reject Him. He has known this from the beginning of time. But where is your backing that just because He knew in advance what would happen, that has forced people to do what He wanted them too?

If I set candy in one bowl and brussell sprouts in another bowl in front of a group of kids, I'm 90% sure I know what they'll pick. (Granted I'm not God and I don't know all, so I could be wrong of course.) But....for the sake of the argument, say I DO know for 100% sure that they will pick the candy. Does that mean that I am willing them or forcing them to pick the candy? NO.....but I know they will.

Euphrates

06-07-2005, 08:31 PM

Yes! Thank you Hope.

Knowledge and actions exist on two different levels. Like my example about going back in time. Just because you know what is going to happen, doesn't mean you are making it happen or that the people involved do not have the choice to decide differently. God knowing what we'll do does not necessarily cause our actions, but quite the opposite... our actions/decisions caused God's knowledge of what those actions/decisions would be.

Oh, and thanks Turambar for clearing up what I was talking about. Scripture alone won't solve this, like you said.

Warrior-Poet51088

06-07-2005, 08:50 PM

Euphrates, that sounds like you're sayin' that man is in control, instead of God. Just a quick comment.

Euphrates

06-07-2005, 10:49 PM

In control of our actions, yes. Thanks for the comment.

Dernhelm

06-07-2005, 11:31 PM

I'm borrowing Dernhelm's name to reply. I'm her mom.
Briefly, a couple of good books to read from the predestination side are: Martin Luther "The Bondage of the Will" and Gordon Clark "Predestination in the Old Testament" (43 pages) or "Predestination". Luther is actually fun and funny, although ancient :D. Not as hard to read as you might think.
A quote from Pre in the OT: "Can man will to prevent God's predictions from coming to pass? Must not man will to fulfill them?
"It may seem odd at first, but does not God's promise to Abraham of numerous descendants imply that Abraham could not have chosen to commit suicide before he had begotten a son? If God promised to give Abraham's seed the land of Palestine, then it was certain that Abraham would have children. He had no free will by which to choose to commit suicide." pg 5
Have fun!

Euphrates

06-08-2005, 04:03 AM

Thanks, Dernhelm's mom.

It is not proper to say that man wills to fulfill God's "predictions". It is proper to say that man wills to make choices that fulfill his own destiny. It just so happens that God knows what this destiny will be.

Also, God's promise to Abraham of numerous descendants implied that he would (not could) not have chosen to commit suicide before he had begotten a son.

inked

06-08-2005, 10:43 AM

Interesting speculation on Abraham and suicide, but it fails to take into account Paul's ascription of Abraham's descendants in the faith apart from mere biological offspring, Romans 4:12,13 (actually the whole chapter). And, let's not forget the other boy, the one legitimately heir, under the legalities of the time, by the concubine.

It is interesting to speculate (and about as useful) that if Abraham had committed suicide, the workings of God would have been through the concubine's son, eh?

The point of course is that God works through humans by God's choice and in congruence with, if they are faithful, them; or, if they are rebellious, in His own manner, and through others, despite them. Thus, Our Lord says, it needs must be that offences come, but woe to them by whom they come. Here we have the foreknowledge of God revealed and the express will of the humans to offend God. The former is not causal to the latter. (E.G., as an OB/GYN I know that persons engaging in unprotected sexual intercourse will get pregnant in the normal course of human life. When they come in and complain of "an unintended pregnancy" my foreknowledge <which can be particular in the case of individuals> has NOT caused the actions the patient chose. They had free will to abstain or contracept.)

If God reserves HImself in such a manner as to allow creatures to have free will, that does not mean that He loses control of the thrust of history. It means that He elevates us to participation in the Creation. Some choose to comply with God and achieve ever-increasing personhood and communion with Him; others choose to retreat into self, imagining vainly that they are the center of the Creation and that not even God can affect them. In the end, at the Vision of God, the particular judgement as it is known, God ultimately says, Thy will be done; and they that have chosen God will have the Beatific Vision and Eternal Life with God; they that have refused God, will implode into the absence of God, the black hole of self, which is hell.

THE GREAT DIVORCE by CS Lewis has much insight, if you care to read that short work.

inkspot

06-08-2005, 01:33 PM

No one here seems to disagree that God DEFINITELY knows (or knew) who would choose Him and who would reject Him. He has known this from the beginning of time. But where is your backing that just because He knew in advance what would happen, that has forced people to do what He wanted them too?
Right on, Hope! This is what I mean -- the candy/sprouts example was good, too.

If God reserves HImself in such a manner as to allow creatures to have free will, that does not mean that He loses control of the thrust of history. It means that He elevates us to participation in the Creation.
Right on, Inked! Giving us free will was a gift, and it in no way negated God's sovereighnty (sp? sorry!)

Arguments For Free Will That Have Been Passed/Ignored

1) Inked and Inkspot's arguments about God existing outside of time.
2) Most of the Scripture that supports choice.
3) My point that denial of free will based on God's sovereignty, actually violates His sovereignty.
4) The entire argument that free will and predestination are not mutually exclusive.

Maybe only those of us who believe in free will have had a chance to post since Euphrates posted this, but I would be interested to see some answers. :)

Smog

06-08-2005, 01:46 PM

Thanks Mrs. Dernhelm, (I'm an outright fan of Martin Luther too :D).

Ok, several people here have said that men have free will to choose God adn Hid commandments or to reject them. However, the Bible does not support this presupposition:

Romans 3:10 As it is written There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God;.

The Apostle Paul says very clearly that no one seeks for God or His righteousness. If this is true, then how are so many people saved? Because God changed their hearts. To be saved God must change the heart and therefore, there is no "free" will, because all of us are wicked until God saves us.

With this being said, men cannot choose to worship God, but rather, God chooses to save us and therefore we worship Him because we are saved.

Inkspot and Euphrates have posted several Bible verses in support of men choosing God, however, I would say that the only way we can choose God is if He chooses us first. Therefore, unless we are predestined for salvation, we will only continue in our wickedness.

Does this help to answer you question(s) and explain my point? (I'm hoping that some of my fellow reformers will come and assist me in answering your other questions, because, I don't have the time or the IQ to do it by myself :D)

GrayCloak

06-08-2005, 02:33 PM

I've been reading this thread from the beginning and didn't really want to get involved - not because I don't think the topic interesting, or important, because I believe it to be both. But rather, because I really don't have the time to post diligently on it.

I'll just try and help out Smog for a sec while I have a couple free minutes.

Arguments For Free Will That Have Been Passed/Ignored

1) Inked and Inkspot's arguments about God existing outside of time.
2) Most of the Scripture that supports choice.
3) My point that denial of free will based on God's sovereignty, actually violates His sovereignty.
4) The entire argument that free will and predestination are not mutually exclusive.

1) Where or when God exists seems irrelevant to me; He may exist outside of our own timeline but that doesn't mean that His will isn't being done in our here and present lives. God obviously (and I don't think anyone here has even debated) knows everything that we're ever going to do - that doesn't mean that because He exists above time and space that it isn't Him guiding and deciding upon what choices we make.

2) I've read through this thread and (correct me if I'm wrong please) but it seems as though most of the scripture supporting 'free will' can be read in it's whole to support predestination. There were a whole line of scripture cited concerning people making decision, but though the choices were 'theirs' to make, couldn't God have been working through them, and guiding their actions as He saw fit to glorify himself?

3) But by denying predestination in it's entirety aren't we stripping God of his authority and power over our lives? We can say God knows everything, but how can He if we have choices and decision that are above and beyond Him? God has to have dominion over every aspect of our lives otherwise He can't really be as omniscient as we say He is. I hope I'm making sense and not just rambling. Sorry if the latter is the case.

4) I believe that free will and predestination HAVE to be exclusive, otherwise God's sovereignty and omniscience comes into question; how can we have an all-powerful God if we can make decisions that are beyond His control? I think one of the problems that we're running into is people are using different definitions for the word 'predestination.' In the sense that I and some of the others are using it (i.e., Capstick, Aragorn, and Smog) it CANNOT be reconciled with "free will." Predestination states that God chooses some people for salvation and some for damnation - further that choice rests solely with God, not man. God doesn't choose some for salvation because they are good - no, we believe that some are good BECAUSE God chooses them for salvation. Does this make sense now?

We debated this a while back on the 'Debating and Discussing Religion thread' here's some Scripture that supports predestination we had there.

1. Psalm 139
2. Malachi 1:2-3
3. Proverbs 16:4
4. Proverbs 16:9
5. Proverbs 16:33
6. Exodus 10:27
7. Romans chapter 9

I hope I at least made SOME sense in my post; feel free to tear apart my arguments and I'll be back later to see what's left. ;)

inkspot

06-08-2005, 03:30 PM

First, let me say: I just read in another thread that it is against netiquet to post twice in a row, and you all have seen me post about 5 times in a row. I did not know this was considered rude. I thought I was breaking up my thoughts so they could be read bite-size and giving you a break from my verbosity. I did not know I was breaking the rules, and I am sorry. I have never been part of a forum before this one -- and despite being a "senior member," I don't know all the rules! (Now you know how I got to be a senior member, all those multiple posts.) My apologies to all.

I would say that the only way we can choose God is if He chooses us first. Therefore, unless we are predestined for salvation, we will only continue in our wickedness.
As long as you can dismiss all the Scriptures where God "appears" to be giving us a choice by saying that we can only choose what God is making us choose, then there is no more room for discussion, because any Scriptures we use are thus nullified, yes? But none of the rest of the Free Willies believe that God has already chosen for us and is just jacking us around by offering us the choice.

Where or when God exists seems irrelevant to me
But your very assertion of PRE-destination implicitly states that one thing happened BEFORE another, that God PRE-determined (BEFORE you were born or BEFORE time began) that you would do one thing or another. Take away the concept of time, and you don't have God doing one thing BEFORE another, you have God existing in an infinite now. The whole idea of PRE-something or other is contrary to God's timeless existence. Does this help? Of course His will is being done in that eternal plane, but linear time, when one thing happened before another, is our human plane, not his. If there is no PRE, present and post (as for God there is not), then there can be no PRE-determining, can there?

There were a whole line of scripture cited concerning people making decision, but though the choices were 'theirs' to make, couldn't God have been working through them, and guiding their actions as He saw fit to glorify himself?
No doubt He was, but does this mean they had no choice? What an awkward and insecure God who would make robots who had to obey, and robots who had to disobey, and then love the ones who couldn't help but obey and hate the ones who couldn't help but disobey. Christ commanded us to love everyone, even our enemies -- how hypocritical when He Himself would only love those He had already chosen to love and to hate those that He had forced to reject Him.

God has to have dominion over every aspect of our lives otherwise He can't really be as omniscient as we say He is
I think you mean if He is as omnipotent as we say He is, because the very point of us Free Willies is that He KNOWS everything without forcing us to DO everything. But all the same, God's purposes will be accomplished whatever I do or don't do, because He is omnipotent, but it does not diminish His omnipotence to let me choose to love Him or reject Him. In fact, I would say it demonstrates His strength: a person who can release the one they love to choose whether or not to love is far stronger than the person who must force another to love Him, wouldn't you say? And see Hope's earlier post about the Brusselsprouts and candy to see the difference we are talking about between knowing what will happen and making it happen.

I believe that free will and predestination HAVE to be exclusive, otherwise God's sovereignty and omniscience comes into question; how can we have an all-powerful God if we can make decisions that are beyond His control?
Nothing is beyond His control, of course. Now, if you go back to the posts about God's eternal attributes and how He lives from everlasting to everlasting, you will see that what you are calling predestination and we are calling free will are not only NOT mutually exclusive, they are the same thing: what happens is what has been happening and always will happen because there is time without end -- the part I play I am playing by God's grace and have always done so ... oh, I don't know how to show it to you! CS Lewis' "The Great Divorce" shows it very well ...

Smog

06-08-2005, 04:58 PM

As long as you can dismiss all the Scriptures where God "appears" to be giving us a choice by saying that we can only choose what God is making us choose, then there is no more room for discussion, because any Scriptures we use are thus nullified, yes? But none of the rest of the Free Willies believe that God has already chosen for us and is just jacking us around by offering us the choice.

I understand what you are saying, however, I was posting this to show how I relate those passages to the doctrine of Predestination.

But your very assertion of PRE-destination implicitly states that one thing happened BEFORE another, that God PRE-determined (BEFORE you were born or BEFORE time began) that you would do one thing or another. Take away the concept of time, and you don't have God doing one thing BEFORE another, you have God existing in an infinite now. The whole idea of PRE-something or other is contrary to God's timeless existence. Does this help? Of course His will is being done in that eternal plane, but linear time, when one thing happened before another, is our human plane, not his. If there is no PRE, present and post (as for God there is not), then there can be no PRE-determining, can there?

Your post here actually helps to prove Predestination, not discredit it. Think about it, God exists at the day of Judgement, where He sees and knows the saved from the un-saved, however He also exists at the creation before the saved and un-saved existed. Therefore, throughout ALL of time God has known and loved His people, whom He elected. Make sense?

No doubt He was, but does this mean they had no choice? What an awkward and insecure God who would make robots who had to obey, and robots who had to disobey, and then love the ones who couldn't help but obey and hate the ones who couldn't help but disobey.

Who are you to answer back to God? Who are you to question His mercy and His wrath? Where were you when He created all things for His glory? He is the creator and YOU are the creature. How dare you question why He made some men for wrath and others for Grace! To know this you would have to be God. It is blasphemous to question the actions of the Lord God.

Christ commanded us to love everyone, even our enemies -- how hypocritical when He Himself would only love those He had already chosen to love and to hate those that He had forced to reject Him.

Yes, but to love does not mean to "feel" something for someone, it means to do that which is right for them. Also, Christ even says that when we love our enemies, it drives them mad! The purpose of loving out enemies is so that they will have no excuse use to God for hating us, and therefore God can judge them even more.

I think you mean if He is as omnipotent as we say He is, because the very point of us Free Willies is that He KNOWS everything without forcing us to DO everything. But all the same, God's purposes will be accomplished whatever I do or don't do, because He is omnipotent, but it does not diminish His omnipitence to let me choose to love Him or reject Him. In fact, I would say it demonstrates His strength: a person who can release the one they love to choose whether or not to love is far stronger than the person who must force another to love Him, wouldn't you say? And see Hope's earlier post about the Brusselsprouts and candy to see the difference we are talking about between knowing what will happen and making it happen.

Yes, but think of Jonah. He didn't do Gods' will. Did God let him go? No, He has him swallowed up by a fish for three days until he did what God wanted him to do. God forced Jonah to do His will. The moral of the story is that God's will will be done, whether you agree with it or not.

Nothing is beyond His control, of course. Now, if you go back to the posts about God's eternal attributes and how He lives from everlasting to everlasting, you will see that what you are calling predestination and we are calling free will are not only NOT mutually exclusive, they are the same thing: what happens is what has been happening and always will happen because there is time without end -- the part I play I am playing by God's grace and have always done so ... oh, I don't know how to show it to you! CS Lewis' "The Great Divorce" shows it very well ...

No, because your definition of Free will is that our actions determine God's knowledge, where we are saying that God wills and we do.

Here is yet another problem that I have with free will:

Your definition of free will means that men act without the intervention of God. However, if God does not control the actions of men, then He does not have power over His creation. If He does not have power over His creation, then it is the will of men and not God that reigns supreme. For God to have control He MUST be the one determining our actions. If we have free will, God loses His power of Providence over His creation.

How can you have free will and God in control at the same time?

inkspot

06-08-2005, 05:21 PM

Who are you to answer back to God? It is blasphemous to question the actions of the Lord God.
See, but I think you are questioning Him when you insist that He cannot give me free will! If "don't question God" is going to be your answer to every argument of logic, we can go no further. When you keep asserting that Predestination is the only possible way this question can be answered, couldn't I say to you: "Well who are you to question God? How do you know what He is doing? He is God, and you are human, so you have no right to speculate about when and how His will is done." If I take this extreme view, I would say you are blaspheming to question whether or not He can give me free will!

So, I see what you are saying, but I do not think this argument "don't question God" works for this discussion, because I could use it on you, too, and say that you are questioning God when you insist that He MUST pre-determine everything. So: instead of whipping that on each other, let's use the Scriptures and logic as best we can, what about that? After all, I am saying He is powerful enough to let me have free will, and you are saying that if He did that, He would not be all-powerful -- thus by definition, you are saying there is something God CANNOT do, which would make Him less than perfect, so you are saying the blasphemy that He is less than perfect because you thought of something He CANNOT do ... so let's not play that card. Both of us love God, and neither of us is blaspheming to consider the wonders of His ways.

Your post here actually helps to prove Predestination, not discredit it. Think about it, God exists at the day of Judgement, where He sees and knows the saved from the un-saved, however He also exists at the creation before the saved and un-saved existed.
Yes! This is what Inked and I, and CS Lewis I think, are saying: that because God exists always and everywhere, predestination and free will are the same thing. What is happening has always been hapening, so God determined nothing BEFORE anything else, so there really isn't any PRE-determining -- it all is happening at once from God's POV.

Yes, but think of Jonah. He didn't do Gods' will. Did God let him go? No, He has him swallowed up by a fish for three days until he did what God wanted him to do. God forced Jonah to do His will. The moral of the story is that God's will will be done, whether you agree with it or not.
And here, I think Jonah proves my point. He had the choice to do God's will or not, and He chose not to! If it had been predetermined that He were going to preach in Ninevah, what on earth was he doing in the belly of the fish? Jonah had a choice. He made the wrong one, and God corrected him. It has happened to all of us, because God is secure enough in Himself to let us choose, and sometimes we have faith enough in Him to choose rightly the first time, or sometimes He gives us a gracious second chance. Praise His name!

Smog

06-08-2005, 05:40 PM

See, but I think you are questioning Him when you insist that He cannot give me free will! If "don't question God" is going to be your answer to every argument of logic, we can go no further. When you keep asserting that Predestination is the only possible way this question can be answered, couldn't I say to you: "Well who are you to question God? How do you know what He is doing? He is God, and you are human, so you have no right to speculate about when and how His will is done." If I take this extreme view, I would say you are blaspheming to question whether or not He can give me free will!

First, there is plenty that God cannot do, lets say, SIN! God is perfect and all-powerful and all-righteous. He cannot sin and therefore, is perfect. Because He is all-powerful, I am saying that there is nothing that He does not have control over, including the actions of men.

Furthermore, you say that I could be being blasphemeous because I say that we have no free will however consider this from Romans 9

Who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded does not say to the molder, 'why did you make me like this?' will it? Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessles of wrath prepared for distruction?"

Now, clearly, there are certian men prepared to be saved and others prepared to be damned. Furthermore, God hardens the hearts of men so that they will sin more and more that wya His righteous wrath will be even greater.

Doesn't this nullify that we have free will?

Euphrates

06-08-2005, 08:34 PM

Clarification

It is not proper to think of God as existing in time. Predestination has nothing to do with God because it deals with the issue of "before an end".

Having said that, I think we can talk about God and the issues of predestination and free will using time, without negating or contradicting the above argument. Within time, free will and predestination can work together.

Here are some important points about free will that are often forgotten or ignored:
1) Free will does not reject or deny any part of predestination, but supports it.
2) If there is choice, there is free will.
3) "God does not interfere" is not the same as "God cannot interfere".

God has control over humankind. God chooses not to use His control all the time, which gives us free will. But He always has the option of controlling us.

The issue of Jonah is good. If God was controlling Jonah, why did He have Jonah violate His command? Jonah chose to run away, and God punished him for it. Then God (using His control) had the fish spit Jonah onto land to obey God. So think about this: it's not disobeying God if God is making you do it. If we have no free will, everything we do is in obedience to God.

Smog, doesn't that passage of Roman 9 that you constantly post say "What if..."? And the entire passage itself is talking about how we can be blamed for being hardened when it was God who hardened us. It is not talking about why we can be blamed for actions God forced us to do.

Also, look back into verse 21 of Romans 8, where it mentions the "glorious freedom of the children of God". Seems to support free will. Which makes me wonder how much the Bible talks about human freedom. Quick examples:
Genesis 2:16- "God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden".
Leviticus 22- a lot about "freewill offering".
Deuteronomy 23:23- "because you made your vow freely to the LORD"
Psalm 118:5- "In my anguish I cried to the LORD, and he answered by setting me free."
Psalm 119:45- "I will walk about in freedom"
John 8:36- "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."
1 Corinthians 9:1- "Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord?"

In this last one, I'm pretty sure they are rhetorical questions whose collective answer is "yes". Clearly Scripture supports choice and freedom. And clearly Scripture supports predestination. Which leads us back to the point that predestination and free will are not mutually exclusive. Both are supported in the Bible.

Turambar

06-08-2005, 08:46 PM

I understand what you are saying, however, I was posting this to show how I relate those passages to the doctrine of Predestination.

Could you give one example please?

Your post here actually helps to prove Predestination, not discredit it. Think about it, God exists at the day of Judgement, where He sees and knows the saved from the un-saved, however He also exists at the creation before the saved and un-saved existed. Therefore, throughout ALL of time God has known and loved His people, whom He elected. Make sense?

You still haven't made a connection to predestionation with this statement.

Who are you to answer back to God? Who are you to question His mercy and His wrath? Where were you when He created all things for His glory? He is the creator and YOU are the creature. How dare you question why He made some men for wrath and others for Grace! To know this you would have to be God. It is blasphemous to question the actions of the Lord God.

A god that does not give us a free will is not my God, so I could mock him until the cows come home. :eek:

Yes, but think of Jonah. He didn't do Gods' will. Did God let him go? No, He has him swallowed up by a fish for three days until he did what God wanted him to do. God forced Jonah to do His will. The moral of the story is that God's will will be done, whether you agree with it or not.

God did nothing with Jonah's will in this example.

Here is yet another problem that I have with free will:

Your definition of free will means that men act without the intervention of God. However, if God does not control the actions of men, then He does not have power over His creation. If He does not have power over His creation, then it is the will of men and not God that reigns supreme. For God to have control He MUST be the one determining our actions. If we have free will, God loses His power of Providence over His creation.

How can you have free will and God in control at the same time?

We wouldn't have free will if God didn't allow it. It's as simple as that.

Wallis

06-08-2005, 10:52 PM

I'd like to add the following sources. Predestination is not centered on the idea that God knows who is going to be saved and who is not (although this certainly is the case):

Predestination 1 (http://www.bible.org/illus.asp?topic_id=1149)

Predestination 2 (http://db.bible.org/ebd.asp?id=2999)

Predestination 3 (http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=2308)

Source 4 (http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=484)

Capstick

06-09-2005, 03:00 AM

I'm going to try to post a recap of all the arguments here from both sides (you'll have to forgive me if I oversimplify them) - this ought to make things easier on everyone, especially for anyone new folks who want to join in on the discussion:

Arguments for Free Will:
(i.e., "The Free Willies")

1) Predestination and Free Will are not exclusive - Euphrates
2) God loves all people, and He commands us to love all people; if He did not love them all, why would He command us to? - Inkspot
3) Heaven and Hell are rewards/punishments for our actions - without Free Will, how can we be punished/rewarded? - Turumbar/I]
4) God does not experience time in a linear fashion like we do - [I]Inked
5) Numerous Scripture references which use the words "choose", "decide", "freedom", etc, -Inkspot and Euphrates
6) How can God be righteous if every action (including the sinful ones) are determined by Him? - Inkspot
7) Just because God KNOWS what will happen, doesn't mean He FORCED things to happen - Hopeful96
8) The very belief in PRE-destination is contrary to the relationship between God and Time - Inkspot

Arguments for Predestination
(i.e.,"The Frozen Chosen")

1) Malachi 1:2,3 ("...yet I have loved Jacob; but I have hated Esau...") - Smog
2) If man is allowed to "determine his own future" then God is no longer sovereign - Aragorn
3) Man is saved, not by his works, but by God who calls (i.e., Romans 9:10ff) - Capstick
4) Salvation is a gift of God, it cannot be earned - Smog
5) Can man will to prevent God's predictions from coming to pass? - Dernhelm's mom
6) Since no one is righteous, man cannot seek God; God must seek man -Smog

Let me know if I missed any arguments...

Capstick

06-09-2005, 03:30 AM

I never talked about determining God's actions (which you repeatedly misrepresent me as saying).

My mistake. I believe you said that our actions determined God's knowledge (not his actions, as I mistakenly said; sorry! :D)...

I think we need to clarify our definitions. As I and the other "Frozen Chosen" are using it, "Predestination" is not compatible with "Free Will" (in the sense that man chooses God). When I talk about "Predestination" I am referring the to theological belief that some have been chosen by God for salvation and some have been chosen for damnation - however, that choice is not based on the actions of man, but on the "whim" of God. So, when predestination is used in this sense, I don't think it can be compatible with Free Will.

In terms of God being "outside of time" - I agree with this statement, and I think it is one of the problems that we encounter when discussing this topic - we, being finite creatures, have a hard time imagining an infinte God.

However, Inkspot, your argument that PRE-destination is an impossibility is an argument in symantics. Since we are finite creatures, who experience time linearly, its impossible for us not to use terms of past, present, and future. From our position, it is "pre-determined" since we did not exist when it happened. Does this make sense?

I'll like to introduce another verse, Ephesians 2:8,9 -"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

I now come to the primary reason that I believe in Predestination, and it concerns a crucial issue: Salvation. What determines our Salvation? Does Salvation come from God (i.e., Justification by Faith Alone) or Man (i.e., Justification by Works).

Ephesians 2:8 says that grace is the means of our being saved - further, we have been saved through faith (i.e., faith in Jesus Christ). Faith, not works is the means of Salvation. Are we clear so far? However, even the faith that we have to believe in Jesus is a gift from God - we didn't do anything to earn it. Since faith is a gift, God must have chosen to give it to some (and, conversely, deny it to others). If Free Will is true, and man does choose God, then the faith no longer becomes a gift - it becomes something that we have earned: which, as the verse clearly states, cannot be the case.

If I understand the concept of "Free Will" properly, then the impossible implication is that Man and God are co-Saviors: God, for sending Jesus to die for our sins, and Man for choosing to accept Jesus. This also inevitably leads to a feeling of arrogance on our part: if everyone has a fair chance of being saved, how come some are and some aren't? Of course one person is morally superior to another because the first person chose to accept God while the second person chose to reject Him...

Going back to the issue of Salvation, I'm sure some of you will say that I'm offering a "false dichotomy:" that the doctrine of Salvation is more complex than simply 1) Saved by God, or 2) Saved by Man. However, as far as I can see, Free Will still leaves us with the unavoidable choice that, at some point in time, Man chose God - and thus faith no longer becomes a gift (something that is given freely, that the person has no claim to), but it becomes a reward. Does everyone understand this, or have I just confused the issue? ;)

Once again its really late, so I won't have time to post any more. I also don't know if I'll have a chance to post tomorrow, since we have a bunch of folks coming over for Bible study - since I just finished Season 3 of "24" (and Season 4 isn't out yet :(), I might be able to get onto the computer by Friday...

Euphrates

06-09-2005, 03:49 AM

Really quickly, all the arguments you listed that support predestination do nothing to show that we do not have free will also.

Look at Wallis' post to see that the doctrine/philosophy of predestination is not only about choosing God or not. If you define "predestination" and include "not compatible with free will", you are twisting its common usage definition.

Also, Scripture does not support the argument that God chooses everyone for either salvation or damnation. At least, not that I have seen yet.

Smog

06-09-2005, 01:50 PM

First, thankyou Cappy, for the recap on the disscussion.

Euphrates, I believe that the scriptures do support Predestination, and furthermore that everyone is either saved or damned. Look at the verse that Capstick gave from Ephesians, it seems to talk about all of the elect.

Also, consider Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of wrath." It says that everything is made for a purpose, this seems to support that everyone made to be either saved, or damned.

Really quickly, all the arguments you listed that support predestination do nothing to show that we do not have free will also.

What about number (6)? If men are inherenty wicked and depraved, then why would any choose to serve God as free will suggests? The idea that a wicked heart can become good without God implies that we do not need God, for if we are righteous from within, then we do not need the grace and righteouness of Christ. Does this make sense, or have I misread your post.

Look at Wallis' post to see that the doctrine/philosophy of predestination is not only about choosing God or not. If you define "predestination" and include "not compatible with free will", you are twisting its common usage definition.

I disagree with this, Predestination says very clearly that men cannot choose God, but that God chooses man. Would you agree?

Euphrates

06-09-2005, 03:09 PM

Number 6?

Yes, I also agree that Scripture supports predestination. I've said that. I don't think anyone has disagreed.

Look at the way I have explained predestination. And then look at what Scripture says about being "chosen" and such. They work together. God chose which causal sequence to actualize (start). In that way, He chose who would be saved and who would be damned. But God only chose to let them do what they would to do.

Here's an analogy. So I'm a camp counsellor and there are 6 kids in my cabin. All six want to do something different from the others and they are telling me what they all want to do. They need my permission. If I give them permission, I know they will do certain things.
Boy 1: "I will do crafts"
Boy 2: "I will swim"
Boy 3: "I will play basketball"
Boy 4: "etc"
Boy 5: "etc"
Boy 6: "etc"

So I give my permission to Boy 2. And he goes swimming. I chose Boy 2 to go swimming. But I did not make Boy 2 go swimming. Boy 2 chose to go swimming, before I gave him permission.

inkspot

06-09-2005, 06:41 PM

you say that I could be being blasphemeous ...
I did not intend to say that you were being blasphemous, because I don't think you or I have blasphemed. What I meant to say was: the argument of "don't question God" could work either way. You are telling me that God cannot give me free will, and I am sure that He has given me free will, so if I were prone to suspect other people of blasphemy, it could sound blasphemous to me for you to deny that He were powerful enough to give me free will, and I could say, "How can you question God like that?!"

Fortunately, I am not prone to suspect other people of blaspheming, and I don't accept "Don't question God" as a valid argument in this discussion, so the above scenario will not be played out by me. Sorry if I implied I thought you were blaspheming, Smoggy!

Also, because I do not believe, as you do, that God makes some people sin and go to hell, as Turambar said, it was not God I was questioning when I mentioned how hypocritical it would have been for Jesus to tell us to love everybody when He didn't love everybody -- now if I believed that He didn't love everybody, but insisted that we do so, it would have been Him I was questioning, but really, it was you, because you believe that. Does this make any sense?

Thank you, Cappy, for the recap of all the issues, you did great.

I must disagree with your next post, however, because you say that choosing to accept the gift of salvation perforce means that we have saved ourselves, or have done something to earn salvation. This of course is not the case. A gift freely given can be accepted or rejected, but neither makes you worthy of the gift, or "earns" the gift. The gift was already bought, paid for and wrapped up for you, because the giver loved you and wanted you to have it. If he had been waiting for you to earn it, he wouldn't have done any of that. The simple act of accepting and unwrapping it doesn't mean you somehow "earned" the gift.

There are so many Scriptures in which God pleads with us to choose Him, to hold fast to Him (see my numerous previous posts, and Euphrates' for them) -- why do you want to negate them and make it seem as if He has already chosen for us and was just humoring us with these Scriptures?

Don't you see, brothers and sisters, if God is doing as you say he is doing (MAKING everything happen and giving His human children no choice) then He is as wicked as the poor lost souls who doubt Him say He is. If what you believe is true, He not only gave us no choice as to whether we would be saved or damned, but He planted a bunch of bombs in Scripture to make us think we had some choice. "Choose, choose, choose" He said, and all the time the decision had already been made. No, I am not blaspheming, because I do NOT believe this is what He did to us -- I believe He loves each of us and wants every one of us to turn to Him and would reject NONE of us on the grounds that He has already decided we are doomed.

* 2 Peter 3:9 says, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Was this a lie? Does God not really want all to come to repentance? May it never be!

* Romans 5:18 says, "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." This says all men, not the chosen ones -- the free gift came upon ALL.

* In John 12:32, Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." Oh, why would He have said this if He meant only the ones that He was going to force to turn to Him?

* And in 1 Timothy 4:10, Paul says, "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." This seems to me to say: Jesus is the Savior for all, all, all -- and those who believe, those who choose Him, actually receive that gift of salvation. Praise God!

Sojourner

06-10-2005, 01:18 PM

Just really quick I am not sure anyone has used this example yet..But God is timeless...he did not make the choice for us...He gave us Free will...but in a way we are also predestined. We have the free will to make the choice to follow him or reject him. And He knows what choice we will ultimately make. That does not mean God will not put people in our way to try to alter our choice. That is the essence of free will. changing your mind. I made the choice to follow God when i was 5 does that mean i was not truly saved although I said I was?? I accepted God into my heart with a full understanding when I turned 13. The point is that it was my choice no one made it for me. I was born the son of a man who eventually became a pastor and is now a missionary in central america. My whole life has been surrounded by the truth, but there is good and bad to everything. I saw the good, the bad, and theugly parts of the church. When I turned 16 i questioned my ability to believe, I questioned God. But isn't that once more the essence of free will? The ability to question my faith made me stronger in my faith.
So the real question is not predestination and free will. The true question is choice.
If you believe in predestination do you choose to let everything work itself out?? All who will come, will come on their own?? Or do you choose to obey Jesus in matthew when he said. "Go into all the nations baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy ghost." We are commissioned by God to preach to all the nations. True hardline predestination goes against that commandment.

The Prince

06-10-2005, 01:26 PM

I believe predestination but an easy way to explain it(though not EXACTLY correct) is that we have free will but God knows what we will do with that will.

inkspot

06-10-2005, 03:14 PM

God is timeless...he did not make the choice for us...He gave us Free will...but in a way we are also predestined. We have the free will to make the choice to follow him or reject him. And He knows what choice we will ultimately make.
This is what I believe. Did anyone read the articles Wallis posted links to? Great illustration by AW Tozer of Free Will working within Predesination. There's an ocean liner bound across the Atlantic from Great Britain to America. There is no doubt that the ship is going to America -- that was predetermined. But on board are passengers who can choose to do anything as they cruise: swim in the pool, play shuffleboard on deck, visit the restaurants, go to the gym ... The boat is going where it's intended to go, but the folks along for the ride can choose how to spend their time as they go. Nothing can thwart the design for the cruise, but the passengers can still choose how they spend their days.

we have free will but God knows what we will do with that will.
Yes, many of us believe this is true.

Dernhelm

06-10-2005, 05:12 PM

I don't think I can do much good in this disscusion...but you might want to consider the difference between free agency and free will.

Smog

06-10-2005, 07:16 PM

Just to clear something up; Predestination does not go againt Evangelism. I'm a Predestinationist and I firmly believe in preaching the Gospel to others. Remember, that God could be working through you to bring others to repentance.

Inkspot, about your scripture verses, I'm not sure how to answer them except that perhaps the phrase all, any, ect., is refering to Christians. I don't think that it can mean "all" people on the earth, because clearly God does not want all to come to repentance (Pharoah, the Pharacies, the people of Sodom and Gomorah, ect.,).

Btw, do those who believe in free will believe that they can choose God, or that God chooses them (stupid question, but I would like some clarification if people don't mind)?

legolas

06-10-2005, 07:23 PM

Look at Smogs signature, the verses.

Euphrates

06-10-2005, 07:24 PM

do those who believe in free will believe that they can choose God, or that God chooses them
Both, buddy. They are not mutually exclusive. Here, again, is my story that shows how they can work together:
So I'm a camp counsellor and there are 6 kids in my cabin. All six want to do something different from the others and they are telling me what they all want to do. They need my permission. If I give them permission, I know they will do certain things.
Boy 1: "I will do crafts"
Boy 2: "I will swim"
Boy 3: "I will play basketball"
Boy 4: "etc"
Boy 5: "etc"
Boy 6: "etc"

So I give my permission to Boy 2. And he goes swimming. I chose Boy 2 to go swimming. But I did not make Boy 2 go swimming. Boy 2 chose to go swimming, before I gave him permission.Both chose Boy 2 to go swimming. God chooses who will be saved, and we choose to be saved. Yay!

legolas

06-10-2005, 07:25 PM

OH, I'm starting to get this!!!!!!! (sry, i'm only 12 ;))

Smog

06-10-2005, 07:37 PM

Both, buddy. They are not mutually exclusive. God chooses who will be saved, and we choose to be saved. Yay!

See, that's where I'm having problems with your theology, you say that salvation is a two-way act. God chooses men to be saved, then we choose Him. I don't think that the Bible supports this theory.

Think about it, men are wicked. The Bible says this many, many times (Romans 3:10ff, ect.,). If men are inherently wicked, why would we choose God? The only way we can choose God is if He regenerates the heart and when our heart is regenorated, we will want to serve Him. Therefore, salvation is not our choice, but God's. He chooses to change the heart and then we serve Him. Do you understand what I am saying?

Btw, I found this verse from Romans 6:17:
"Thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching you were commited, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."

What are peoples thoughts about this verse and how it relates to free will?

Hope96

06-10-2005, 07:49 PM

See, that's where I'm having problems with your theology, you say that salvation is a two-way act. God chooses men to be saved, then we choose Him. I don't think that the Bible supports this theory.

Think about it, men are wicked. The Bible says this many, many times (Romans 3:10ff, ect.,). If men are inherentl wicked, why would we choose God? The only way we can choose God is if He regenerates the heart, however, if our heart is regenorated, then we will want to obey and serve Him. Therefore, salvation is not our choice, but God's. He chooses to change the heart and then we serve Him. Do you understand what I am saying?

I'll try to explain the way I've always known this issue/situation to work. I do believe that God chooses us as well as us choosing Him. You are correct when you say that we are wicked and wouldn't choose God on our own. That's where the God choosing us comes from. Think back to the day you were saved. I was 12 years old (many years ago, lol), at a New Year's Eve lock-in thing we were having at church with my youth group. I can still remember the sense of urging, the tugging at my heart, the fear of dying and going to Hell....those feelings overwhelmed me. That was the Holy Spirit convicting me, or "choosing" me. However, at that time, I could have chosen NOT to accept God or TO accept God. I chose to accept Him that night. It does seem really complicated and I can see why people get confused when they get caught up in reading debates or hear conversations about this. But I 100% believe that it was my choice to accept Him that night or to turn it down. I also believe that I would never have had the desire to choose Him, had He not chosen to convict me at that time. I was born in church and have been in church my entire life. But it wasn't until that moment that I felt compelled to recieve His gift of salvation. I've also known people who have experienced the same feelings, but pushed those feelings of conviction away and didn't respond immediately. If God made us choose Him then those people wouldn't have the choice to say no to God.

Does this make sense?

Euphrates

06-10-2005, 08:15 PM

The Prince

06-10-2005, 10:26 PM

Has anyone asked a pastor just an idea, I know my Bible and chatechism pretty well for someone my age and I dont have a clear explanation, I'm not sure all pastors would agree,some things we wont know till we get to heaven,
and about the evangelism thing A gr8 evangelist(dont remember who my Pastor once qouted him)said some thing similair to this "God doesn't put a stamp on the forheads of all Christians or futer Christians so its my job to preach to them all"

legolas

06-10-2005, 10:37 PM

"God doesn't put a stamp on the forheads of all Christians or futer Christians so its my job to preach to them all"

Thats cool! I like it! :) :D ;)

Turambar

06-11-2005, 01:35 AM

Thats cool! I like it! :) :D ;)

Me too! Why witness when a person's destiny is already determined?

The Prince

06-11-2005, 09:57 AM

"God doesn't put a stamp on the forheads of all Christians or futer Christians so its my job to preach to them all"
thats why, even if theyre futeures are determined

waterhogboy

06-11-2005, 12:34 PM

Yeh true. Its almost irrelevant whether God has predestined us or not (I know it isnt so dont pick me up on it). What I mean is - we dont know who God has chosen, so we sohuld simply see it as anyone could have been chosen by him. We should therefore spread the word to everyone...

Smog

06-11-2005, 06:19 PM

Smog, your stance on predestination seems to have changed. I may be wrong, but you now sound like you think God convicts the heart but doesn't control our actions. Am I right? Because if you think God convicts the heart, He still gives us the choice to accept Him or not. Free will is all about choice. We are naturally slaves to our sinful nature, but we can choose to be slaves of righteousness through God's mercy.

No, I think that God convicts the heart and makes us change our ways to believe in Him. God makes us slaves to righteousness.

If you have a problem with the theology I presented, do you have any biblical support that it is wrong. All the stuff, that I've seen, about predestination supports my theology. All the stuff about freedom and choice also support my theology. But, the passages from Scripture about freedom and choice do not support the theology that we have no free will.

Well, the problem is not that I haven't presented any evidece, but that you don't believe that the scripture I've quoted supports my theology. I don't know how I can change your mind if you don't accept my references to the scriptures.

Here's what is important. It's not that "God chooses men to be saved, then we choose Him". It's that God chooses men to be saved and we choose Him. Thinking about it temporally is going to mess up the issue's clarity. But if you must think about it temporally, Boy 2 didn't choose to go swimming after I gave him permission. He had chosen to go swimming before I gave him permission. You made your choices before God allowed you to act on them.

What your saying here is that we choose God and then He chooses us. That is contrary to scripture because we cannot choose to follow God unless our heart is changed. Unless God has changed our wicked heart, we will not choose to serve Him. Furthermore, once our heart is changed we have no choice but to follow Him. Do you understand my point (althoug, I'm guessing you disagree ;)).

Euphrates

06-11-2005, 06:35 PM

Well, the problem is not that I haven't presented any evidece, but that you don't believe that the scripture I've quoted supports my theology. I don't know how I can change your mind if you don't accept my references to the scriptures.
I accepted every Scripture you presented. Everything! I agree with ALL of it. Everything! It all supports predestination, which I also support. None of if is against free will. None!

The real problem is that you do not accept the Scripture I present, and Inkspot presents. All the passages that talk about freedom and choice and decisions all support the ability to choose and decide and be free. Even a slave has freedom, in that the "master" doesn't dicatate every movement of the slave. We have the freedom to choose our "master". God already knows who/what we will choose.
What your saying here is that we choose God and then He chooses us. See, here's what happens when we think about it and talk about it temporally. We hadn't actually chosen God before we were created. We had potentially chosen God. Nothing was actual until God allowed it to happen. God chose to let us choose Him.

It comes down to this: look at all the Scripture that has been presented in this thread. None of it goes against what I have been saying. None of it! But a bunch of it goes directly against the claim that we do not have free will. Check it out, in Genesis, God Himself says "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden." I don't see how you can say that there is no free will when God clearly thinks there is.

The Prince

06-11-2005, 06:47 PM

bing bing bing, we have a winner!

inkspot

06-11-2005, 07:33 PM

Just to clear something up; Predestination does not go againt Evangelism. I'm a Predestinationist and I firmly believe in preaching the Gospel to others. Remember, that God could be working through you to bring others to repentance.
But, if I understand you correctly, one of your problems with free will is that it would undermine God's authority if we could choose something. And above I see you saying that it could depend on us whether someone God has already chosen comes to Christ? Does that not undermine God's authority in the same way you fear, making something He has already willed dependent upon you to complete?

Inkspot, about your scripture verses, I'm not sure how to answer them except that perhaps the phrase all, any, ect., is refering to Christians.
If this is the case, what about 1 Timothy 4:10,"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." Those that believe would be the Christians, I would think, and yet Paul says Savior of all ...

Capstick

06-11-2005, 11:53 PM

Let me just post a quick reply:

-Euphrates, you keep saying that you support both predestination and free will: but I'm afraid that your understanding of predestination is not the same as my understanding. You can't say that you accept predestination (and all of the arguments that support it) and then claim that man chooses God - which is contrary to what I've been arguing for. Let me use an analogy:

Lets say that there are ten people in a hospital, who all have the same fatal disease. Moreover, lets say that they are also comatose: they don't know what's happening. A doctor comes along, and decides to give five of the patients the medicine that will heal them. Because of this, they recover fully and enjoy a healthy life.

In my example, the patients had no control over their fate: they could not "choose" to accept the medicine or deny it - the doctor chose who to offer it to (now, obviously, this is only an analogy - so it will tend to break down; the point I wanted to make is the that the patients couldn't "accept" or "reject" the medicine on their own: the choice had already been made for them beforehand).

-Regarding all of the Scripture references that were posted earlier that used words such as "choose", "decide", "freedom," etc, none of those were referring to "man choosing God," and I think we should be careful about reading too much into verses such as these.

After all, the Bible was written by men (don't misunderstand me: God worked through men, and I believe it is infallible), but men were the authors. Thus, we would expect that it is written from our viewpoint, and would use words such as "choice," "decide", etc, because that's how [U]we{/U] view things. However (at least in my understanding) that's now how God views salvation.

Moreover, I'd like to make a distinction between predestination and fatalism. Fatalism is the belief that whatever happens is going to happen - why, then, should we be concerned about anything? Nothing that we do will make any difference ... Calvinists, at least the ones I know, don't look at the world that way, nor would they say that is an accurate description of predestination. I realize that there is a fine line between the two, and since I don't have a Master's Degree in Theology, I don't feel confident in explaining the subtle differences between the two.

What I AM sure of, though, is that Man is not saved by anything he does - even if its so much as accepting something God offers.

-Inkspot, I understand what you're saying about how we can either accept or reject a gift offered to us, but I'd still have to disagree with your conclusion. I think all of us would agree that we are saved by faith, and not works (at least, the Protestants among us should ;)) The passage in Ephesians that I mentioned, however, says that even the faith we have to believe in God is a gift freely given - this isn't something that we can accept or reject. Its an internal change in our attitude/mindset that God causes - and nothing we can do will precipate that change. If this is so, then Man is taken out of the picture - he has no influence over his salvation

(please note the distinction between "Justification" and "Sanctification" - these two terms basically refer to 1. Salvation - a one time act - and 2. how we operate/behave: a life-long process. If there's any confusion over this over-generalization, I'll post more on these two issues at a later time).

I think this is the issue that Smog was getting at. How does God decide who will be saved? Going back to my previous analogy, if the patients are not merely sick, but comatose, how will they even realize that there is a problem and ask for the cure? If God has to cause some sort of regeneration process to get them to the point where they can accept/reject His gift, what factor(s) determine whom He regenerates?

inked

06-12-2005, 12:29 AM

I believe in free will because I was predestined to do so and have no choice :p !

Calvin's over-emphasis on the concept of Predestination was declared heretical by the Roman Catholic Church because it denied free will.

I am not familiar enough with Greek Orthodox theology on this issue, but I rather suspect they are closer to the non-Calvinistic understanding.

Being one to go to the Tradition to solve knotty errors like this, I should say that man has free will to choose by God's creating Man free to choose has been the correct understanding, not Calvin's. (There, I've said it again!)

Next question? :D

Euphrates

06-12-2005, 12:51 AM

Capstick, you can't define predestination to be something smaller than what it actually is. It is the belief that everything is predestined to happen. It is not the belief that God chooses us and we cannot choose/accept Him. But anyway, you seem to think that man cannot choose/accept God. Right? You think that God doesn't "offer" salvation, but forces it upon those who will be saved (like in your analogy) and those for whom salvation was not forced, are condemned to hell. Right? Well, I'd like to see biblical support for the entire claim you make, not just certain parts. I need to see Scripture that shows that we do not have the ability to accept the gift of salvation that God offers us. But in the meantime, I have some Scripture for you.

Scripture
At the end of these days, from the eighth day on, the priests are to present your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings on the altar. Then I will accept you, declares the Sovereign LORD. Ezekiel 43:27
Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. Matthew 19:11
Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a cropâ€”thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown. Mark 4:20
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. John 12:48
Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day. Acts 2:41
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. Acts 8:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14
And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe. 1 Thessalonians 2:13
Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. James 1:21
You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? Matthew 23:19
Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water." John 4:10
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Turambar

06-12-2005, 01:32 AM

After all, the Bible was written by men (don't misunderstand me: God worked through men, and I believe it is infallible), but men were the authors. Thus, we would expect that it is written from our viewpoint, and would use words such as "choice," "decide", etc, because that's how [U]we{/U] view things. However (at least in my understanding) that's now how God views salvation.

Why don't you lean on God's Word instead of your own understanding?

Euphrates

06-12-2005, 09:18 PM

Hear, Hear! *pounds on desk*

By the way, if you all are really interested in this, I encourage you to read a book by John Perry called Dialogue on Good, Evil, and the Existence of God. It's short (about 70 pages) and it's sort of written like a play, so it takes very little time to read it. Granted, they assume some things I don't agree with, but they talk about free will and God's omniscience/sovereignty.

The Prince

06-13-2005, 08:23 AM

Euphrates I have one point about youargument that seems previlent in all your qouted verses, this verse said

"Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a cropâ€”thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown. Mark 4:20"

not

"Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, AND SOME accept it, and produce a cropâ€”thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown.
Mark 4:20"

you get that or am I overlooking something :confused:

lirimar_senshi

06-13-2005, 10:39 AM

inkspot

06-13-2005, 12:10 PM

this verse said

"Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a cropâ€”thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown. Mark 4:20"
not
"Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, AND SOME accept it, and produce a cropâ€”thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown.
Mark 4:20"
These "others" were the ones that accepted it, compared to the ones who never accepted it: the seeds thrown on rocky ground, carried away by birds, etc. There were plenty of others in the parable that did not accept the Word, but none of them (in the parable) were FORCED to accept or reject it.

Regarding all of the Scripture references that were posted earlier that used words such as "choose", "decide", "freedom," etc, none of those were referring to "man choosing God," and I think we should be careful about reading too much into verses such as these.
Joshua 24:15 is certainly talking about choosing God:
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Deuteronomy 30:19, also asks us to choose God:
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live..."

And Romans 3:14-16 implies that we may be made partners with Christ when we allow Him to win our hearts, and it certainly implies we have the choice to harden our hearts against Him:
"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation."

Again and again the Bible implies that we have a choice, and the choice is clearly to choose God or reject Him, so I see no reason why we cannot take these Scriptures at face value. And finally this tidbit from CS Lewis' "The Screwtape Letters," which is written by a DEMON to a younger DEMON to discuss how to IMPEDE and HINDER God's plan on earth:

"The Enemy [God] takes this risk because He has a curious fantasy of making all these disgusting little human vermin into his 'free' lovers and servants â€”'sons' is the word He uses ... Desiring their freedom, He therefore refuses to carry them, by their mere affections and habits, to any of the goals which He sets before them: He leaves them to 'do it on their own.'"

Lewis of course, believed as Euphrates and I do, that free will and predestination are, in the end, the same thing: they are what God has seen happening and sees happening in the eternal plane of His existence.

Euphrates

06-13-2005, 03:21 PM

Thanks, Inkspot.

Prince, the point is that it had to be accepted. It was not forced onto people. Salvation is a gift that can be accepted or rejected.

inked

06-13-2005, 03:40 PM

G'day everyone!

This is a great discussion and I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said. But I do have a question.

Can the notion of "once saved, always saved" exist outside the doctrine of predestination? It's a question that's been niggling away at me for most of the year. (comes from attending a multi-denominational Bible college ;) )

God Bless

Welcome, glad you're posting!

The notion of "once saved, always saved" is predestinarian. It certainly implies that if one were to apostasize (deny Jesus as Who He is, as Saviour, announce one had become an atheist) one would still be "saved". Thus, while not being a typical TULIP sort of Calvinism, it is a form of predestination.

I am very familiar with the concept as I spent 27 years as a Southern Baptist. As an Anglican, I think free will certainly means that one could deny Jesus and it be a real and effectual denial (we have a number of Bishops who seem to specialize in Apostasy, e.g., Bishop John Spong who denies every creedal assertion about Jesus in print).

I think free will trumps predestination because God ordained that man's will should be free. That does not mean God is not in control of history, but that He has chosen to work with, or in spite of, individual human responses to His love.

inkspot

06-13-2005, 04:28 PM

Well said, Inked.

I suppose a pre-D type would say that the person who came to Christ and then later rejected Him was never "really" saved, but I tend to agree with Inked that free will comes into play here -- Jesus even predicted such in the parable of the sower, where some of the little seeds sprang up, but never put down roots, and were eventually swept away ...

Lunis

06-13-2005, 05:28 PM

But are there not some odd and few people who believe they cannot lose their salvation once they choose? Yet they do believe it was their choice that got them saved, not God's plan? Just a thought... We can't really put beliefs into categories and boxes, names, etc anymore; it's all become so mixed, tho some people would like to believe they still have the right and ancient answers. And I don't think we'll ever know for sure about God's little (or huge) mysteries until we can sit down and ask Him face to face... God did atleast know that I would choose salvation; "he knows our every thought." He knew before He formed me in my mother... that I was to be His. So... He does know what we'll choose; for He is all knowing. Is that not a form of predestination? Yes, we have the freedom of choice, but God knows what our choices will be, because there is no past, present, or future with Him. He is not subject to time; I think He created it because for now our little minds cannot grasp the concept of eternity. No beginning, no end. He knows where we'll end up, because essentially past, present, and future is all one for Him. Right? Wow. My mind is always boggled by the Spirit. I cannot wait till I can understand fully... (*Thia

Lunis

06-13-2005, 05:39 PM

Oh, and as an afterthought... Why should it discourage some people for them to know God all ready knows what they will choose? Why do they think "Maybe He all ready knows I'm screwed and destined for hell"? Come on people, snap out of it! It's a 50/50 percent chance, right? And if they're even considering God, Christ, Hell, Heaven, and Salvation... don't they realize it's a higher percent that they are "meant" to be saved? Does it not cross their minds that they might be considering these things because God is pulling them toward Himself? If predestination is real, than it should by no means "scare people away" as some are afraid it does. Um, sorry for saying so much at once. Lol. Don't think I'm argueing either way, but I do think that God being all knowing and sovereign is a truth, and I will stick by it... Err, so what I guess I'm really agruing is that this title "Predestination or Freewill" is a paradox? We have the Freewill because God didn't go around telling us "I know you're going to choose me and come to Heaven, and I know you are not." And in a way we are "predestined" because, like I said before, there is no time for God, so... He just knew and still knows our choice. Whether He created that choice within us or not... I'll have to ask Him, but I doubt it. Hope I made atleast a little sense in all my rambling... God Bless, (*Thia

Hope96

06-13-2005, 10:08 PM

Lunis
You are not rambling at all. I know there are a LOT of posts to go through on this thread. But it has been repeated numerous times by different people that pre-destination and free-will sort of exists in each other. I don't recall exactly what page this post is on or how far back it is....but I am fairly certain that Inkspot has backed up her beliefs on this in several different posts. I know she mentioned the time line thing and how God doesn't exists on a time line. So you are most definitely correct on this. I think a lot of us are on the same page as you are. We all agree that God is all knowing, so he knew before we were even born that we were or were not going to accept Him as our saviour. However, He doesn't force us to accept it. He just knows that we will accept it. :)

inkspot

06-13-2005, 11:48 PM

Yes, you are both right to my mind! God exists in forever, so it's all happening right now for Him, no wonder He knows all!

Predestination and Free Will in my mind are all the same to Him, because it's all happening right at this instant, as he knows it will... it is mind-boggling!

As for why it would discourage some to think maybe God had doomed them already ... it was more the idea that God had made everything happen that was going to happen, including misery and sin, and then He was blaming us for the misery -- if that was the way He operated, which I don't think it is.

Cuz He's loving, and He commanded us to love everyone -- why would He do that if He didn't love everyone?

nillascowboy

06-15-2005, 12:47 PM

nillascowboy

06-15-2005, 01:13 PM

As for why it would discourage some to think maybe God had doomed them already ... it was more the idea that God had made everything happen that was going to happen, including misery and sin, and then He was blaming us for the misery -- if that was the way He operated, which I don't think it is.

Remember that we are all guilty and on our way to hell. Just because God chose to have mercy on some does not mean he is being unjust. Romans 9:18 - "Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." He has clearly chosen some to be objects of mercy and some to be objects of wrath (Romans 9:21-23). I don't think we can look over the fact that HE CHOSE, not WE CHOSE and He went along with with us.

Smog

06-15-2005, 03:33 PM

Remember that we are all guilty and on our way to hell. Just because God chose to have mercy on some does not mean he is being unjust. Romans 9:18 - "Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." He has clearly chosen some to be objects of mercy and some to be objects of wrath (Romans 9:21-23). I don't think we can look over the fact that HE CHOSE, not WE CHOSE and He went along with with us.

Amen! (Nice to see a new face, especially a "Predestined" one:D)

I completely agree with what you said, we cannot choose God, He has to choose us.

As far as "every day" decisions, I think that God works through our choices to bring about His righteous will. I don't think that He forces us in small things, but rather He governs the ALL decisions that we make for His own purpose. Does this help to clarify my standpoint?

inked

06-15-2005, 04:21 PM

nillascowboy

06-15-2005, 04:44 PM

God, of his own free will, gave Man free will. So Man is free to accept or reject salvation. Man cannot achieve salvation on his own, so God became Man and redeemed His creation, but He still endows Man with the ability to choose or reject Christ, and He abides by Man's decisions. None that choose Christ, even at the moment of death, will be lost. None who reject Christ will be saved. Any who are saved are saved through Christ, God's gracious Gift.

Then we still play a part in salvation? But according to Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ€”and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godâ€” not by works, so that no one can boast." We are saved through faith - but we can't have faith unless God gives it to us. Some may say that it is given to everyone but Paul is specifically talking to people who are "saved." And even if we had a choice, we nullify the last part of this verse because we would have reason to boast over the unsaved. We would claim we are intelligent enough to accept the gospel, something Paul obviously disagrees with here because he is placing the emphasis on grace - not works.

1 Corinthians 2:14 - "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." This again goes back to "dead" in our transgressions. Humans are totally depraved and can't understand the Gospel unless God makes it so. John 6:65 - He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." God ENABLES salvation. I don't know how else to interpret this verse.

inkspot

06-15-2005, 04:49 PM

inked

06-15-2005, 04:53 PM

By God's grace, we choose. "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve." Then try the whole book of Hosea, you know the dude with the prostitute for a wife who was told by God to marry her and have children with her, as an example of what it was like to be God (and have choosers like Israel and us for co-covenanters).

You are free to deny God's self-reservation and His allowance of free-will to man. In fact, you can believe you are predestined to do so. But if you rely on that and do not live a life in which you work out your salvation, you may be surprised at your ultimate destination. In either case, God provides, Man decides. :D

By the way, I deny total depravity. :cool:

nillascowboy

06-15-2005, 05:05 PM

Welcome Cowboy! I did not see you post before.

Of course I do not agree with your position, but I do agree with you that how we look at this issue can be framed by how we view the Fall of man, as the Apostle Paul said in Romans 5:17-18â€”

"For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Adam's sin brought death to us all, and Christ's sacrifice brought new life to us all, not just a chosen few, if we will only accept it. Hurray!

So all the world will be saved since all the world was lost because of Adam's sin? Obviously not everyone will be saved so we must look at this verse in comparison with the rest of scripture. This verse also doesn't say anything about "choice" and Paul's message in Romans is clear that God is the one who chooses who he has mercy on. :o

nillascowboy

06-15-2005, 05:24 PM

inkspot

06-15-2005, 05:47 PM

The big misconception is that people who believe predestination go out and live life how ever they want which is kind of comical. The predestination doctrine that is taught in scripture allows us to understand the complete humbleness we should have before an Almighty, Holy Creator. Not a license to do whatever.
But if you felt that God had already doomed you, why not go out and live life how ever you wanted? You're going to be in hell forever, might as well live as much as you can on earth, it would seem.

I do not know about your hidden/revealed will of God idea, nor how it combats the notion of free will, but we have had many Scriptural references that seem to imply that Christ came for all, and a man may choose whether or not to accept the gift of salvation...

2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

John 12:32
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

1 Timothy 4:10
"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.â€

Joshua 24:15
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
It seems to imply we can choose God, or choose something else.

Deuteronomy 30:19
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live."

Hebrews 3:6-8
"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts..."

I still see no answer for why God would continually encourage us to choose Him, and not to harden our hearts against Him, if indeed we had no choice. And I do not see why He and His disciples would call Him the Savior of all if His gift were only for a few that He had already chosen. What do you think these Scriptures mean?

Turambar

06-15-2005, 08:36 PM

I find this topic very interesting and felt the need to join the discussion. I believe that our salvation is solely predestined. Most of what I read was the attempt to make God look ahead and see what our free-will chose. While this seems like a good middle ground, I have to agree with Martin Luther. If salvation is not totally from God then we will always have the possibility of pride in our work in salvation.

It's also possible to have an element of pride the other way. "I was good enough that God chose me." Regardless, this has absolutely nothing to do with the truth of the matter, because it is God's grace that saves us either way. Acceptance of God's gift is not the same as a "good work".

This debate really comes down to how we view the Fall of man. Did Adam's sin make us spiritually sick or spiritually dead? Ephesians 2:1 - "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins," - So we are essentially as dead as Lazarus in John 11. Lazarus could not choose to be alive. Christ had intervene to make him alive. In the same way, if we are dead in our transgressions - we can't choose to be saved. God must be responsible.

Wow, don't you think that's just a BIT of a stretch? "Jesus raised someone from physical death, and he had no choice in the matter. Therefore we have no choice about our eternal destiny." That's what it seems you are saying, and I really don't know how you can logically make such a connection.

The most troubling part I have with free will for our salvation is the logical possibility that no one would have chosen to be saved. The calling of the disciples and Paul (Saul) are good examples of God intervening. These people didn't choose themselves to be saved. Christ found them and acted supernaturally in their conversion. Are we to believe that Jesus went around to over 100 people saying "Follow me" until He finally got 12 to actually do it?

What was Judas, a mistake?

I noticed someone put in the point we are slaves to either sin or righteousness. This is an excellent point. We have no compatability to choose righteousness without the Spirit. Our sinful nature will always point us to sin. We do this voluntarily because we don't know how to be good - but we don't do it freely.

We don't know how to be good? Then, why do we even have a consequence for sin? How is sin our fault?

Let me make the point, Predestination states that we can not choose Christ without him enabling us to come (John 6:65) to him. This is solely a salvation issue. In no way do I intend to think, as Luther stated, that God is limiting our free-will choice on every day things (what we eat, the clothes we wear, etc.)

After Christ does enable us, we then have the freedom to choose him. You are committing a logical fallacy by twisting "no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him" into "every man must come to me if the father has enabled him." You are affirming the consequent.

nillascowboy

06-15-2005, 09:11 PM

I still see no answer for why God would continually encourage us to choose Him, and not to harden our hearts against Him, if indeed we had no choice. And I do not see why He and His disciples would call Him the Savior of all if His gift were only for a few that He had already chosen. What do you think these Scriptures mean?

It is human nature to assume that because God told us to choose him that we could do it. God gave us the Ten Commandments and other laws but we have no ability to keep them. Galatians 3:22-25 - " But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." So why did God give us the law which we can't fulfill (I assume we agree on grace versus works)? To drive us to Christ by recognizing our guilt. This goes back to total depravity, which is key to this discussion. Paul talked about this: Romans 7:19 - "For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to doâ€”this I keep on doing."

While that deals with your verses on choice, the verses that deal with the word "all" need to be looked at in light of scripture. We know that all men aren't saved. So if all men aren't saved, what does "all" mean? Well, either it means "all" in the literal sense and the Bible is false or it is referring to the elect. These verses only make sense in a predestination light.

Hebrews 1:3 - "After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." Note the past tense of the word "provide." This clues us in that the payment for our sins was accepted at the cross, not potentially accepted. How is this possible? Election. Foreknowledge. Predestination. I have read through some of the posts about God being outside of time and I don't disagree with that at all. But this is kind of like adding millions of years to the Creation story to make preconceived beliefs fit the Bible. Our God doesn't decieve us, he knows we are bound by time and recognizes the importance of relating to us in time. If it is different, He would say so.

You asked why if you are doomed would you not live the way the way you wanted to. Predestination excludes no one who comes to know Christ as their Savior. It only states that this person was enabled to come by God. People think predestination means we should quit witnessing. I grew up being taught free will and it wasn't until a couple of years ago that I changed my position. Predestination wasn't taught to me, I read through both sides and I couldn't escape it. What actually happened is that I became more encouraged to witness. Before I was so afraid I might say something wrong or too quickly or not in depth enough and the person would be lost forever. Knowing God chose me before time to be saved without anything on my part has given me peace to know that some people will accept the gospel and some won't. It doesn't mean I only present it once, but I don't stay up at night hoping I didn't send the person to hell because I was unconvincing. Salvation is God's work. We present the gospel to everyone knowing some will reject it and some will accept it.

By the way, thanks for all of the greetings on the forum. I hope that we can continue this discussion and I hope to join a few others too! :)

nillascowboy

06-15-2005, 09:26 PM

Wow, don't you think that's just a BIT of a stretch? "Jesus raised someone from physical death, and he had no choice in the matter. Therefore we have no choice about our eternal destiny." That's what it seems you are saying, and I really don't know how you can logically make such a connection.

George Whitefield didn't think so. I guess we are just assuming that Paul over exaggerated the situation of us being "dead" in our transgressions?

What was Judas, a mistake?

Actually no, because Judas was predestined to betray Jesus.

We don't know how to be good? Then, why do we even have a consequence for sin? How is sin our fault?

Romans 9:19-21 -"One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" That's straight from the Book, the apostle Paul addressing the argument. I don't think it can be much clearer. It's NOT OUR CALL. And we aren't offered the chance to reason with God.

After Christ does enable us, we then have the freedom to choose him. You are committing a logical fallacy by twisting "no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him" into "every man must come to me if the father has enabled him." You are affirming the consequent.

Then what are we assuming, that all men come to the Father because he enables everyone? Again, in light of sound doctrine, how can we come to that conclusion?

Turambar

06-15-2005, 10:08 PM

George Whitefield didn't think so. I guess we are just assuming that Paul over exaggerated the situation of us being "dead" in our transgressions?

I'm not questioning Paul here. I am questioning your comparison of the two pieces of scripture. They are unrelated.

Actually no, because Judas was predestined to betray Jesus.

Then your analogy with the disciples clearly doesn't fit.

Romans 9:19-21 -"One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" That's straight from the Book, the apostle Paul addressing the argument. I don't think it can be much clearer. It's NOT OUR CALL. And we aren't offered the chance to reason with God.

There is no connection between having a will of our own and resisting God's will. God certainly has a will of his own, and none can resist it, of course. That does not mean that he does not also allow us a will of our own. This is Paul addressing the problem of evil, not the question of free will.

Then what are we assuming, that all men come to the Father because he enables everyone? Again, in light of sound doctrine, how can we come to that conclusion?

We are assuming that he enables us to make a choice, as I stated. Without him enabling us, we wouldn't have a choice.

nillascowboy

06-15-2005, 11:35 PM

I'm not questioning Paul here. I am questioning your comparison of the two pieces of scripture. They are unrelated.

Is it an analogy that predestination hinges on? Hardly. But it explains our condition. Why is it you attack my analogy with vague responses? How about scripture that proves it wrong? Argue against Total Depravity if you don't like this doctrine. Arguing the analogy when I've also provided scripture is not worthwhile.

Then your analogy with the disciples clearly doesn't fit.

Why? If we assume free will then we are saying that Jesus hoped Judas would betray him? If you are going to ding me because 11 disciples continued on in faith and I said 12, then so be it. Judas and the disciples are obviously chosen by God for His purposes - good and evil which just happens to promote predestination.

There is no connection between having a will of our own and resisting God's will. God certainly has a will of his own, and none can resist it, of course. That does not mean that he does not also allow us a will of our own. This is Paul addressing the problem of evil, not the question of free will.

Did you read this whole section? How can you say that God is not addressing free will? He's talking about Pharoah's will in this section as well. Changing things to your interpretation doesn't change scripture.

We are assuming that he enables us to make a choice, as I stated. Without him enabling us, we wouldn't have a choice.

John 6:61-66 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him."

Sorry for not putting all this in earlier but this is hardly showing that all men are enabled. Jesus knew who didn't believe and then said no one can come to the Him unless the Father has enabled him. Where again is the logical fallacy in this context? The logical progression of this conversation with Christ and the disciples leads us to the conclusion. God enables salvation.

I have explained these points enough. I have made other points you have not addressed. I ask that if you question Scripture that you provide Scripture that points differently and explain your point of view. Otherwise, we don't share the same foundation and are wasting our time. :(

Turambar

06-16-2005, 03:30 AM

Is it an analogy that predestination hinges on? Hardly. But it explains our condition. Why is it you attack my analogy with vague responses? How about scripture that proves it wrong? Argue against Total Depravity if you don't like this doctrine. Arguing the analogy when I've also provided scripture is not worthwhile.

Ephesians 2:1 does not support a lack of free will. John 11 does not support a lack of free will. You attempted to join the two together and come to the conclusion that there is a lack of free will, but the two passages are completely unrelated. One talks of spiritual death. The other talks of physical death. Neither tells us what Lazarus "wanted."

Why? If we assume free will then we are saying that Jesus hoped Judas would betray him? If you are going to ding me because 11 disciples continued on in faith and I said 12, then so be it. Judas and the disciples are obviously chosen by God for His purposes - good and evil which just happens to promote predestination.

When you first talked about the disciples, you suggested that they had not followed Jesus by any will of their own. You suggested that he "forced" them. This is all speculation without any support. The betrayal of Judas implies that Jesus did not "force" them to follow him, as you seemed to suggest. It's certainly not "proof" of free will, because you can interpret it how you like. However, it very strongly suggests that, even when Christ has a strong influence in our lives, we need to be aware that our sinful nature can lead us away from him (because he does not force our destiny upon us).

Did you read this whole section? How can you say that God is not addressing free will? He's talking about Pharoah's will in this section as well. Changing things to your interpretation doesn't change scripture.

Suggesting that the hardening of Pharoah's heart proves a lack of free will is ridiculous. Nobody here is claiming that God does not intervene in our lives, causing things to take place that are beyond our control. The simple fact of the matter is that if Pharoah indeed had no choice about letting the people go from Egypt, it still does not follow that we cannot choose our eternal destiny.

Let's take a look at the passage from Exodus that Paul cites:

"But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go."

As we can see, the very same chapter might suggest that Pharoah did this to himself.

Regarding Romans 9, Paul is addressing people who question God's benevolence, saying that he is unjust. This is a simple claim from the problem of evil. To refute this claim, he appeals to the fact that God "knows better than we do," using a very clear statement given in Exodus.

John 6:61-66 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him."

Sorry for not putting all this in earlier but this is hardly showing that all men are enabled. Jesus knew who didn't believe and then said no one can come to the Him unless the Father has enabled him. Where again is the logical fallacy in this context? The logical progression of this conversation with Christ and the disciples leads us to the conclusion. God enables salvation.

As I already said, you are affirming the consequent. Let's analyze the statement a bit:

p = "someone has come to me"
q = "the Father has enabled him"

p -> q = "if someone has come to me, then the Father has enabled him"
p implies q, and this fits within "no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him"

If p is true then q is true. However, it does not work the other way around.

You are saying that if q is true then p is true: "if the Father has enabled someone, he has come to me." (we have no choice because the Father has "chosen" us) This is called affirming the conseqnent, and it is a logical fallacy. You are affirming the consequent (q) in order to conclude the antecedent (p). This is backward, to put it simply. It does not necessarily mean that your conclusion is false, but it does mean that your argument is invalid.

Yes, God enables salvation. No, God does not force it.

I have explained these points enough. I have made other points you have not addressed. I ask that if you question Scripture that you provide Scripture that points differently and explain your point of view. Otherwise, we don't share the same foundation and are wasting our time. :(

I am not arguing against scripture; I am arguing against your fallacious logic. I need not provide any scripture to point out errors in logic. Don't take it personally; it's not meant as an attack. I'm just trying to show that we can't simply make scripture say whatever we want it to say.

nillascowboy

06-16-2005, 09:22 AM

Turambar

06-16-2005, 02:10 PM

Turambar - we have gone over these few points enough. My fallacious interpretation of scripture was also held by Augustine, Luther, Calvin, and Whitefield. Men who were great theologians and much more educated in the original texts than I am. Romans 9:11-13 - "Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or badâ€”in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who callsâ€”she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
If you want to disagree that's fine. But my fallacious interpretation of scripture sees "before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad - in order that GOD'S PURPOSE IN ELECTION MIGHT STAND" and then it says "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." I guess I'm just really misguided, with Augustine, Luther, Calvin, and Whitefield. :rolleyes:

It's a good thing that truth is not determined by the people that believe it, isn't it? Maybe we shouldn't believe that Jesus rose from the dead because there are many well-known people that reject the resurrection? Instead of throwing out names, address the truth of the matter.

Regading God loving Jacob and hating Esau before they were born, you might want to look back on this thread and read about how God is not bound by time. He knew how the brothers would live their lives before they were born. This does not mean that he forced them to live that way.

Since we obviously have two sides, which one better fits how us humans would like to interpret Scripture? The side where we are in control and are capable or the side where God is in control and we are incapable? Total Depravity tells me not only that God is solely responsible for salvation, it also tells me that human nature is going to want to be in control. So what scripture disproves Total Depravity?

Human nature does incline us to want to have control over our destiny. Does that mean that we are not? Not at all! The fact that humans desire to interpret scripture one way does not mean that their interpretation is wrong.

You are under the misconception that either side can be "proven" or "disproven." This is not the case at all. If you want to see scripture that supports free will, there is more than enough in this thread already, and I need not waste my time restating it.

You also seem to misunderstand my aim here, yet again. I am not attempting to "prove" anything. I am only pointing out that some assumed things about a lack of free will are not necessarily true. Don't attempt to place up a straw man by suggesting that I am wrong because I cannot "prove" that we have free will (this seems to be where you are headed; forgive me if I am wrong).

nillascowboy

06-16-2005, 02:48 PM

So am I to understand that we shouldn't look to scholars who can interpret the original languages of the Bible? We should just read it ourselves and make our interpretation? Even though the vast majority of us won't read the entire Bible in our lives? Since you are good at defining logical fallacies I'm sure you'll counter this with the "slippery slope" fallacy, but isn't this how false religions get started? (I know that's not where you are going, but to just discredit theologians because they are human then brings into question whether anyone can understand scripture). You say that I'm not addressing truth, but the very views I'm providing are backed historically by theological people who played a huge role in church doctrine. They are not random people on the street. I brought these men up because you questioned my interpretation of scripture. So I defend my interpretation with the argument that this is the same interpretation that Luther, Calvin, etc. had and then you say I'm not addressing the truth of the matter. What other standards must I meet that you have already met?

I addressed the timelessness of God in a previous post and I have received no counter response. I have also responded to supposed "free-will" verses in previous posts yet there has been no response to these. Don't fault me for making an argument. I'm making one for predestination but I don't see you making one for free-will. It's a cop out to refute all the predestination verses only to turn around and say "Don't expect me to prove free-will." I assume you are one that believes in both predestination and free-will and seek to find a middle ground since you brought up the timelessness of God. Help me understand the middle ground. I don't see anyone responding in anything but the affirmitive to free-will scriptures (With the exception of my new buddy Smog :) ). If there is a middle ground then comment on why some of the free-will verses are taken out context.

No one has yet to bring an argument against Total Depravity of humans. Does anyone have reasons why Total Depravity is wrong? This is an obstacle that must be dealt with for anyone who believes in free will or a middle ground.

inkspot

06-16-2005, 02:53 PM

We are not picking on you, Cowboy! But I was thinking on the hidden/revealed will thing you mentioned...
Example: God commands Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. Abraham obeys but then God stops him. Did God change his mind? Did He lie? Hardly. The "revealed will" was for Abraham to sacrifice his son. The "hidden will" was to test Abraham.
If predestination is a fact, why would God have needed to test Abraham? God already was forcing him to choose obedience (in your theory) so what was the point of this test, if Abraham had no choice in the outcome?

Now, please don't say that no one has given any Scriptures that seem to support free will, as there have been tons, and I did not see your reply to my last post that said, "What do you think these Scriptures mean?" with a long list of Scriptures.

Also, I have never tried to "dis-prove" predestination, only to show that I believe the whole argument is moot -- not becauseof any "middle ground," but because pre-destination and free will turn out to be the same thing to God, because of His timeless existence. He sees everything happening at once, as it happened in the past and will be happening in the future (to our minds). If you want to say that because everything goes according to His plan, then humans have no free will, you can say that ... but in fact everything goes according to His plan because He is God, and part of His plan was to allow us a choice to love Him or not (why else that whole debacle with Eve and the serpent in the Garden of Eden?). In that sense, yes, He predestined the actions of every one of us: either to choose Him or not to choose Him!

Now, Turambar has addressed your Scriptures, would you like to go back a couple pages and address mine?

But keep in mind, Cowboy (and Turambar), we are all believers here, and this is a purely intellectual exercise, we all know that Christ's grace alone saves, and that's the important thing, and we all love each other. Nothing here is presented, or should be presented, as an attack on another person or that person's intellect. This is just a discussion on one of the wonders of God! Enjoy it, but don't let it make you mad.

Also, why is it you want someone to refute the idea of total depravity? How does that support your thesis again?

GrayCloak

06-16-2005, 03:07 PM

nillascowboy

06-16-2005, 03:25 PM

I just haven't had time to post on this threat - but I felt I really needed to just make a quick comment here:

nillascowboy you're posts have been wonderful and exciting to read. I'm a Calvinist who has been trying to understand the full depths of such things as Total Depravity and Unconditional Election - you've post have helped confirm some things in my mind! Thank you!

Thanks for the encourgement! I don't claim to have all the answers but I am glad I have been able to help where I could. I hope everyone understands that I am not getting angry and I'm not ready to blow up at any point. The truth is that I have family members who are free-will believers and we're able to sit down and eat dinner together and everything :D . I wanted to post this before I went back to reply on the other new post with an in depth response.

nillascowboy

06-16-2005, 03:50 PM

We are not picking on you, Cowboy! I know. I am really enjoying this. I hope you all are too.

If predestination is a fact, why would God have needed to test Abraham? God already was forcing him to choose obedience (in your theory) so what was the point of this test, if Abraham had no choice in the outcome?
Good question. When God told Moses to go back to Pharoah, God knew Pharoah wasn't going to accept. Why not send the plagues already? This is venturing deep into the mysteries of God and I am certainly not qualified to explain why God has done everything He has. I brought this up as a side note to the predestination discussion because I preemptively expected someone to bring up the verses on God desiring all men to be saved.

Now, please don't say that no one has given any Scriptures that seem to support free will, as there have been tons, and I did not see your reply to my last post that said, "What do you think these Scriptures mean?" with a long list of Scriptures.
I responded to these in post #111. I know it is hard to go back and read every part of every posting. I tried doing it on the Creation/Evloution thread until I realized there were 29 pages of posts. Feel free to comment on my response.

Also, why is it you want someone to refute the idea of total depravity? How does that support your thesis again?
Total Depravity states that all men are utterly sinful. We are slaves to sin, we may sin voluntarily, but that is because our nature is warped due to Adam's sin. Paul writes in Romans that "no one is righteous, not one" and "no one seeks God." So we, as humans, left to our sinful nature would have no capability to seek God. I have often heard in church the analogy "We are all drowning but when God sent Jesus he threw us a life preserver. All we have to do is take it." Total Depravity's analogy would be "We are all drowning but we don't know it. When God sent Jesus, He essentially jumped in the water after us and saved us. We didn't meet him half way, We didn't reach out our hand. He had to do it himself because we have no clue." This of course necessitates predestination since we aren't choosing.

Does that help?

GrayCloak

06-16-2005, 04:14 PM

When God told Moses to go back to Pharoah, God knew Pharoah wasn't going to accept. Why not send the plagues already? This is venturing deep into the mysteries of God and I am certainly not qualified to explain why God has done everything He has.

Exodus 7:2-3 "You shall speak all that I command you. And Aaron you brother shall tell Pharaoh to send the children of Israel out of his land. And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

My speculation for Moses/Pharaoh, and Abraham/Isaac was for God to be able to show His glory and power over the natural world. Whether it be sending plagues down upon Egypt, or providing the ram to replace Isaac on the alter. By hardening Pharaoh's heart, his ultimate judgement was that much greater.

Btw, anyone else see the significance of Abraham having to sacrifice his son - perhaps a sign and symbol of Jesusâ€™ ultimate sacrifice?

nillascowboy

06-16-2005, 04:28 PM

Exodus 7:2-3 "You shall speak all that I command you. And Aaron you brother shall tell Pharaoh to send the children of Israel out of his land. And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

My speculation for Moses/Pharaoh, and Abraham/Isaac was for God to be able to show His glory and power over the natural world. Whether it be sending plagues down upon Egypt, or providing the ram to replace Isaac on the alter. By hardening Pharaoh's heart, his ultimate judgement was that much greater.

Btw, anyone else see the significance of Abraham having to sacrifice his son - perhaps a sign and symbol of Jesusâ€™ ultimate sacrifice?

I totally agree with you on both points. Thanks for joining the thread :D . I am also on the same page as you with the sacfrice. There is definitely a corrolation there.

Turambar

06-16-2005, 06:58 PM

So am I to understand that we shouldn't look to scholars who can interpret the original languages of the Bible? We should just read it ourselves and make our interpretation? Even though the vast majority of us won't read the entire Bible in our lives?

Actually, I didn't say this. You're putting words in my mouth. I only pointed out that naming people who agree with you doesn't make your belief true.

Since you are good at defining logical fallacies I'm sure you'll counter this with the "slippery slope" fallacy, but isn't this how false religions get started? (I know that's not where you are going, but to just discredit theologians because they are human then brings into question whether anyone can understand scripture).

There's nothing to refute here. I never said that the teachings of the people you mentioned are useless. I myself am Lutheran, even though I disagree with some things Luther said. I know that Luther's words were not the inspired Word of God. Therefore, while I agree with much of what he taught, I can also disagree with something he said if I don't think it stands up to scripture.

You say that I'm not addressing truth, but the very views I'm providing are backed historically by theological people who played a huge role in church doctrine. They are not random people on the street. I brought these men up because you questioned my interpretation of scripture. So I defend my interpretation with the argument that this is the same interpretation that Luther, Calvin, etc. had and then you say I'm not addressing the truth of the matter. What other standards must I meet that you have already met?

The point I am trying to make is that naming people who agree with you does nothing to address the actual issue. If you turn to scripture and actually try to back up your points, which you have, that's great. Suggesting that I am wrong because I disagree with Calvin is useless in and of itself.

I addressed the timelessness of God in a previous post and I have received no counter response.

Which post, please? I still have not seen any convincing argument that onmiscience necessarily entails predestination.

It's a cop out to refute all the predestination verses only to turn around and say "Don't expect me to prove free-will."

Your stance is that scripture tells us that we do not have free will. My stance at this point is simply that you are wrong. I do not have to show that scripture tell us we have a free will, because that is not what I am claiming right now. My claim is that it does not tell us there is no free will. These two things are not the same. If you were to say that there is no free will because scripture does not specifically tell us there is, you would be using fallacious logic yet again.

No one has yet to bring an argument against Total Depravity of humans. Does anyone have reasons why Total Depravity is wrong? This is an obstacle that must be dealt with for anyone who believes in free will or a middle ground.

This is another misconception. A person can believe in free will even if scripture does not deny the lack of it, as long as scripture does not deny free will. There is a difference between claiming that scripture does not support the lack of free will and claiming that scripture denies it.

You are suggesting that I am claiming that scripture denies the lack of free will. This is a straw man, because that is not what I am doing right now.

GrayCloak

06-16-2005, 08:24 PM

I do not have to show that scripture tell us we have a free will, because that is not what I am claiming right now. My claim is that it does not tell us there is no free will. These two things are not the same. If you were to say that there is no free will because scripture does not specifically tell us there is, you would be using fallacious logic yet again.

It's impossible to debate with this view; you cannot affirm a standpoint by arguing from the negative. I could just as well debate that there are invisible pink bunnie rabbits running around - why? Because there's no evidence to support that there aren't any. I know that's a stupid analogy, but it seems to illustrate my point. You cannot say that something exists just because there is no evidence to support that it doesn't.

Furthermore, you cannot accept that there is free-will on that argument because you have to take into account the numerous scripture references that have already been given which support the idea of predestination. Obviously God cannot predestine certain people to be his elect if they have the free-will to accept or deny him - therefore the evidence has already been given in favor of Predestination and the burden of proof falls on you to give sufficient evidence to disprove it.

I hope that made sense.

Turambar

06-16-2005, 08:38 PM

It's impossible to debate with this view; you cannot affirm a standpoint by arguing from the negative. I could just as well debate that there are invisible pink bunnies rabbits running around - why? Because there's no evidence to support that there aren't any. I know that's a stupid analogy, but it seems to illustrate my point. You cannot say that something exists just because there is no evidence to support that it doesn't.

I think you are also misunderstanding me. My claim right now is not that free will exists. Instead, I am claiming that scripture does not specifically tell us that it does not exist. That is it. I could even make this claim, and still believe that free will does not exist. My belief is irrelevant. Does that help?

On the other side, someone might claim that free will cannot exist because scripture does not specifically say that it does. This would also be a fallacy. I'm trying to point out that we should avoid this.

Furthermore, you cannot accept that there is free-will on that argument because you have to take into account the numerous scripture references that have already been given which support the idea of predestination. Obviously God cannot predestine certain people to be his elect if they have the free-will to accept or deny him - therefore the evidence has already been given in favor of Predestination and the burden of proof falls on you to give sufficient evidence to disprove it.

I hope that made sense.

Actually, simply invalidating the arguments that use such scripture is all that is needed. If the arguments can be invalidated, as I have been doing, then I need not disprove the lack of free will to "make room" for a belief in free will. I'm simply showing how the lack of free will cannot be proven using scripture.

One other quick thing...

Originally Posted by inkspot
"Now, please don't say that no one has given any Scriptures that seem to support free will, as there have been tons, and I did not see your reply to my last post that said, "What do you think these Scriptures mean?" with a long list of Scriptures."

I responded to these in post #111.

I don't see how any of the specific passages were addressed. Can you please clarify this?

nillascowboy

06-16-2005, 09:33 PM

First of all, I agree with Gray Cloak. Excellent analogy on the "invisible pink bunnies." That Scripture can never disprove free will. Ok, so are you saying that there are verses that disprove predestination? Or are we not able to do that either? I can't help but think you are playing the role of devil's advocate where the goal is to just cause confusion. Especially since we have one major difference. To me, it's crystal clear that Romans 9 is talking about God's choice not ours, but you disagree. Note: you didn't disagree with the logic of it - you said it had to do with evil as a whole. Now, when we discuss Scripture - IN CONTEXT - (which I also did with John 6:61-65) the only correct way to dispute this is with scripture. The New Testament demands sound doctrine. In other words, we judge Scripture against Scripture. Not Scripture against logic. Our authority is the Bible - which is infallible - not human logic which is fallible. Logic is a useful tool if used with scripture, not on its own. I'm sure many philosphers would have a field day discussing their views on what is and is not logical in the Bible. I say all that to say this, show me SCRIPTURE that disputes Romans 9 and John 6. You said God ENABLES all men and then it's ours for the choosing. Back this up with Scripture. That's all.

From post #111, the verses quoted that I saw were broken down into two categories: verses where God commands us to choose, and verses dealing with "all" concerning the amount of people. Verses that deal with the commanding of choice is addressing the true free-will side that salvation is up to us. Verses that use the word "all" intends to show that God gives everyone the same mercy and the rest is up to us. I discussed each of these in the predestination view in that post. I also address the God being outside of the time issue in the post. If you have questions from that or would like me to be more specific, I will do my best to oblige.

Turambar

06-16-2005, 10:20 PM

First of all, I agree with Gray Cloak. Excellent analogy on the "invisible pink bunnies." That Scripture can never disprove free will. Ok, so are you saying that there are verses that disprove predestination? Or are we not able to do that either? I can't help but think you are playing the role of devil's advocate where the goal is to just cause confusion.

Please don't take this as an attack, but I must suggest that you do a little research in logic. Try a philosophy course or two. It will help a lot with the confusion, to be honest.

I'm not trying to prove or disprove predestination or free will. I've already made this clear. All I am simply doing is pointing out how your interpretations of scripture are illogical.

Especially since we have one major difference. To me, it's crystal clear that Romans 9 is talking about God's choice not ours, but you disagree. Note: you didn't disagree with the logic of it - you said it had to do with evil as a whole. Now, when we discuss Scripture - IN CONTEXT - (which I also did with John 6:61-65) the only correct way to dispute this is with scripture.

Then give me something to dispute. How, in context, am I wrong? I already showed how Romans 9 is not stating that we all lack free will. I said nothing about God not having a choice. Again, you are twisting my words.

The New Testament demands sound doctrine. In other words, we judge Scripture against Scripture. Not Scripture against logic.

I'm not judging scripture. I am judging your faulty interpretations of it. Don't equivocate your interpretations of scripture as being the inspired Word of God.

I say all that to say this, show me SCRIPTURE that disputes Romans 9 and John 6.

Again, I am not disputing scripture, only your claims about it.

You said God ENABLES all men and then it's ours for the choosing.

I pointed out that this is a possibility, in an attempt to show how a belief in free will is not inconsistent with what the verse says. Enabling is not forcing. The passage cannot be used to deny free will.

I discussed each of these in the predestination view in that post. I also address the God being outside of the time issue in the post. If you have questions from that or would like me to be more specific, I will do my best to oblige.

Basically, this is what I see from the post regarding the "choice" verses. You talked about total depravity, and then said, "that deals with your verses on choice." I don't see any of the verses actually addressed specifically. Are they all simply invalidated by your interpretation of two or three passages?

Also, I don't see how your comments on time have anything to do with the real issue. Please explain.

nillascowboy

06-16-2005, 11:26 PM

You say I need to take philosphic courses to assist my logic. I don't understand a lot about logic but I think they call this a slippery slope. You are stating that a topic which is not asserted pro or anti within the Bible is open to the interpretation you would want. In this case, child abuse could be right since it is not specifically stated anti in the Bible. Transsexuality isn't necessarily bad because it isn't specifically listed. Even though we read that God knew us when we were formed in the womb, the Bible does not specifically state that fetuses should not be destroyed. So we can interpret that maybe abortion is ok.

Moral non-believers argue the logic of what feels right or wrong. We as Christians have the inspired word of God to govern what is right and wrong. We serve an Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent God whose very nature defies our limited human "logic." We face a difficult enough task in our attempt to understand what is written in God's inerrant Word. We subject ourselves to an excercise in futility when we attempt to interpret what God did not place into His Word. Grant the Holy Spirit the honor of being more learned than you or I are.

1 Corinthians 4:6 - "Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another."

From this point forward, any dispute over interpretation should be made with Biblical truths not worldly "logic" and I will not bother to address such worthless matter.

I Corinthians 1:20-25 "Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength."

Turambar

06-16-2005, 11:33 PM

One other quick thing, now that I have a bit more time:

In other words, we judge Scripture against Scripture. Not Scripture against logic. Our authority is the Bible - which is infallible - not human logic which is fallible. Logic is a useful tool if used with scripture, not on its own.

I hate to point out another fallacy, but we won't get anywhere if we throw logic out the window.

You said that human logic is fallible. Then, you said that logic is therefore not a useful tool on its own. This is the fallacy of equivocation. You changed the meaning of the word "logic" part way through the argument. Let me explain.

When you say that human logic is fallible, you are talking about logic in the sense of "human reasoning". Then, when you say that we should not use logic to judge scripture (again, I'm only judging interpretations, not scripture itself), you are talking about logic in the sense of universal rules that are applicable to all sound reasoning. These are two different things.

Logic, not in the sense of human reasoning, but in the sense of universal logic, is not something that can be described as "fallible". We might as well say that math is fallible. We know that math itself is really a set of universal rules that people can use to come to conclusions about the world we live in (much like logic). When we say that someone's mathematics are fallible, we are not saying that math itself is fallible, but the person's use of math. Math itself is not fallible, and neither is logic.

I agree that scripture always overrides human reasoning. This does not mean that we cannot use logic to determine whether someone's interpretation of scripture is valid.

Does that clear things up a bit?

nillascowboy

06-16-2005, 11:41 PM

Read my previous post.....

Turambar

06-16-2005, 11:49 PM

You are stating that a topic which is not asserted pro or anti within the Bible is open to the interpretation you would want. In this case, child abuse could be right since it is not specifically stated anti in the Bible. Transsexuality isn't necessarily bad because it isn't specifically listed. Even though we read that God knew us when we were formed in the womb, the Bible does not specifically state that fetuses should not be destroyed. So we can interpret that maybe abortion is ok.

This is why we need to use logic combined with what we know about scripture to come to conclusions about what is right and wrong. We can use logic, for example, to show that fetuses should not be destroyed. Example:

Scripture suggests that fetuses are people.
Scripture tells us not to kill people.
Therefore, scripture suggests that we should not kill fetuses.

This is simple logic, combined with scripture. This is an example of valid, logical reasoning.

Moral non-believers argue the logic of what feels right or wrong. We as Christians have the inspired word of God to govern what is right and wrong. We serve an Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent God whose very nature defies our limited human "logic." We face a difficult enough task in our attempt to understand what is written in God's inerrant Word. We subject ourselves to an excercise in futility when we attempt to interpret what God did not place into His Word. Grant the Holy Spirit the honor of being more learned than you or I are.

Please don't plagiarize Martin Luther; give credit where it is due.

People can interpret scripture to mean many different things. We can come to clearer understandings of the truth of scripture if we apply logic to these interpretations. We can use logic to judge whether the interpretations are valid or invalid.

1 Corinthians 4:6 - "Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another."

When you take a passage that says the father enables us to be saved, and then add in the idea that we have no choice after we are enabled, you are going beyond what is written.

From this point forward, any dispute over interpretation should be made with Biblical truths not worldly "logic" and I will not bother to address such worthless matter.

If we exclude logic, then we have no way of determining whether or not anybody's interpretation of scripture is true or false. I have shown your interpretations to be illogical, and your only response is that we can't use logic?

nillascowboy

06-17-2005, 12:51 AM

Scripture suggests that fetuses are people.
Scripture tells us not to kill people.
Therefore, scripture suggests that we should not kill fetuses.

Gee, isn't this wasn't I have been saying? Scripture compared to scripture gives us truth. John 6 and Romans 9 together helps us to understand predestination. That's my view. It's not illogical. Funny how when I do this it's wrong but when you do it its right. You never disproved Romans 9 with scripture. You said it dealt with evil in the world. I think your interpretation is false. You have given no scripture to back up your stance. Now what? More discussions on logic? I am so tired of this. If someone would like to have scripture-based discussion on free-will and predestination, I would greatly appreciate it. Turambar has decided to forego the Bible and opt to be better versed in logic - which I concede despite the fact it is not the argument at hand. I also apologize for not crediting Luther appropriately but the last time I brought up his name I was chastized. Finally you say that you have proven my interpretations to be illogical. To be honest, you have me confused as to what we are even discussing. I use phrases like "sound doctrine", assuming that taken with the other predestination verses John 6 is a strong case. You turn around and blow John 6 out of the water and claim victory. What does that prove in light of sound doctrine? The very concept of sound doctrine says look elsewhere in the Bible. And all you have proved is that this verse does not DIRECTLY effect predestination. Yet you have yet to show me where God explicitly states he has enabled everyone and we choose from there. If you don't believe we can know and are confident in it, then don't clog up the forum while others try to learn the other side. Why bother to respond the way that you are doing? You don't question what sound doctrine is, you just keep arguing from the negative. Inkspot has been very gracious in our disagreement because they at least address what I have said from a biblical perspective and I look forward to discussing this subject further with them if they so choose. But if this is going to be a semantics and philosphical forum, I have other things to do that would be much more beneficial. Tarumbar - this part of the discussion is over.

Smog

06-17-2005, 02:08 AM

Ok, I completely aggree with everything that nillascowboy has said, and it's really nice to see more people in favor of predestination. (Sorry I haven't been here in a while, I've been having computer problems, and then spent the better part of an afternoon putting together a new weight bench).

Turambar, you've said that the Bible does not refute free will. However, I'm going to quote Romans 9 (my new favorite chapter in the Bible:D):

(The context of this verse is on Salvation) Then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Now, this verse seems very clear, man cannot "will" to be saved, God must have mercy.

Also, there are some who have said that God gives men the gift of salvation, and then men can accept or reject it. This is where Total Depravity comes into play. If men are utterly wicked, then none of us would "choose" to accept the gift of salvation. God has to change our hearts, and if He does so, then we are saved. Does this make sense?

One last point, Turambar has exhorted us o use logic in our interpretations. So here goes, the Bible says:

Men do not seek after God (Romans 3:10ff)
God must have mercy on a man, before he is saved (Romans 9:16)
Therefore, uising simple logicl, men cannot choose God, but rather God must choose us.

Until someone can refute this claim through scripture I don't think there is anything else to say.

inked

06-17-2005, 03:01 AM

Total depravity is totally bogus. If you were totally depraved, you couldn't use logic. Logic partakes of the nature of reality, which partakes of the nature of God. God says, "Come, let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as wool." There we have reason, part of God's nature in man, the creature, being a point of contact. If total depravity were true, God would be an ass to phrase it thusly. I'm of the opinion that God is not such an ass. Though there are many who would make him so to suit their theological position. (I'm not denying the logic given their presuppositions; for logic partakes of the nature of the Godhead: in the beginning was the LOGOS and the LOGOS was God!) I deny their presuppositions. There is no way for a totally good God to create a Creation which he names as "good" on seven (fulfilled reality in origin and intent) subsequent cycles of formation, peaking in humanity who is "created in the image of God" and lose out every whit of that. Why talk to Adam and Eve afterwards the sin in the garden if they were totatlly depraved? DUH!

Unless you wish to argue that God, too, is totally depraved, instead of Calvin? :confused:

"Very far gone from original righteousness" is accurate, true, and correct. But you heretics can believe what you will, since you will to do so! :p On the flip side, I'll take Jesus, "Come unto me," "No one who comes to me will be turned away," "Thirsty? Come!," "Seek and find," "Knock and it shall be opened,"..."Ask and you shall receive."

"God so loved...that all that believe in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

"This is a true saying, and worthy of all men to be received, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners."

"If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and he is the perfect offering for our sins, and NOT for ours only, BUT FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD."

God's not as "picky" as Calvin proposed. In his humility which stooped unto death, he received the penitient thief, and accorded that thief Paradise the same day. "He who turns unto me, I will in no wise cast out."

Gifted with free will, choose wisely: " ...to obey is better than sacrifice; a humble and contriete heart, He will not despise."

...but if it makes you "feel" better to believe in predestination, go ahead. Just live it like you mean it and don't presume upon it. That's why one of two thieves were saved! One that all may hope and believe; one, that none may presume!

Turambar

06-17-2005, 03:57 AM

Gee, isn't this wasn't I have been saying? Scripture compared to scripture gives us truth.

Actually, you were saying that this can be done without logic, which is ridiculous.

You never disproved Romans 9 with scripture.

You still think I am trying to disprove scripture? This is a straw man, and you're not giving it up apparently. If you're just going to keep putting words in my mouth, then this is useless.

You said it dealt with evil in the world. I think your interpretation is false. You have given no scripture to back up your stance.

Actually, I said that Paul was addressing an argument from the problem of evil - that God is unjust. Paul is specifically addressing this argument, as seen in verse 14. "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!" If you think that Paul is not defending the fact that God is just, please tell me what he is talking about.

Turambar has decided to forego the Bible and opt to be better versed in logic - which I concede despite the fact it is not the argument at hand.

There it is again, me against scripture. Of course, your interpretation is doctrine, isn't it?

You turn around and blow John 6 out of the water and claim victory.

Actually, I blew your fallacious interpretation out of the water. I completely believe John 6 and the rest of God's Word, just not some of the things you've said about it. Do you still not understand the difference? How can I make it more clear?

Yet you have yet to show me where God explicitly states he has enabled everyone and we choose from there.

I'm sorry, when did I say that I was out to prove that we have free will? Actually, I remember saying this is not the case several times.

Inkspot has been very gracious in our disagreement because they at least address what I have said from a biblical perspective and I look forward to discussing this subject further with them if they so choose.

That reminds me, what happened to those passages Inkspot referenced? I think you have still ignored them.

(The context of this verse is on Salvation) Then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Now, this verse seems very clear, man cannot "will" to be saved, God must have mercy.

Of course man cannot will to be saved if God does not have mercy. Does this mean that he does not have a choice in the end? It doesn't say. Remember, "don't go beyond what is written."

Men do not seek after God (Romans 3:10ff)
God must have mercy on a man, before he is saved (Romans 9:16)
Therefore, uising simple logicl, men cannot choose God, but rather God must choose us.

The argument is invalid. Even though both premises are true, the conclusion does not follow from the premises. It is possible for the conclusion to be true even if the premises are false. This is simple logic.

An example of true premises and a false conclusion here could be this: God has mercy on man, and offers eternal life. Man chooses to accept (or decline) the gift, now that God has offered it. "Men do not seek after God" says nothing of not being able to make a choice after God has sought man out.

Inked, thanks for your words on logic! It's good to see other people realize the witnessing potential of being well-versed in both scripture and logic.

inkspot

06-17-2005, 09:44 AM

Wow, kudos to all on the interesting posts since I last looked in. I could respond to a bunch, but I am trying to limit myself to only one post per thread in a row, and I thought the following might be good for consideration. It is the entire chapter of Romans 9, from The Message Bible. That's the one I go to when I do not understand a passage in the NIV or KJV. Please note that it conveys the points Paul is making clearly, but does not in any way negate free will. In context, Paul here is talking about why the children of Israel rejected Messiah, not specifically about why people do or don't get saved ... his final conclusion is that Israel missed Messiah because they were too concerned with their law (works), NOT because God didn't want them saved -- they were His children, and He desperately wanted them saved!

It's lengthy, but it puts the verses upon which predestination are reliant into good focus.
--------------
Romans 9, The Message

1At the same time, you need to know that I carry with me at all times a huge sorrow. 2It's an enormous pain deep within me, and I'm never free of it. I'm not exaggerating--Christ and the Holy Spirit are my witnesses. It's the Israelites . . . 3If there were any way I could be cursed by the Messiah so they could be blessed by him, I'd do it in a minute. They're my family. 4I grew up with them. They had everything going for them--family, glory, covenants, revelation, worship, promises, 5to say nothing of being the race that produced the Messiah, the Christ, who is God over everything, always. Oh, yes!
6Don't suppose for a moment, though, that God's Word has malfunctioned in some way or other. The problem goes back a long way. From the outset, not all Israelites of the flesh were Israelites of the spirit. 7It wasn't Abraham's sperm that gave identity here, but God's promise. Remember how it was put: "Your family will be defined by Isaac"? 8That means that Israelite identity was never racially determined by sexual transmission, but it was God-determined by promise. 9Remember that promise, "When I come back next year at this time, Sarah will have a son"?

10And that's not the only time. To Rebecca, also, a promise was made that took priority over genetics. When she became pregnant by our one-of-a-kind ancestor, Isaac, 11and her babies were still innocent in the womb--incapable of good or bad--she received a special assurance from God. What God did in this case made it perfectly plain that his purpose is not a hit-or-miss thing dependent on what we do or don't do, but a sure thing determined by his decision, flowing steadily from his initiative. 12God told Rebecca, "The firstborn of your twins will take second place." 13Later that was turned into a stark epigram: "I loved Jacob; I hated Esau."

14Is that grounds for complaining that God is unfair? Not so fast, please. 15God told Moses, "I'm in charge of mercy. I'm in charge of compassion." 16Compassion doesn't originate in our bleeding hearts or moral sweat, but in God's mercy. 17The same point was made when God said to Pharaoh, "I picked you as a bit player in this drama of my salvation power." 18All we're saying is that God has the first word, initiating the action in which we play our part for good or ill.

19Are you going to object, "So how can God blame us for anything since he's in charge of everything? If the big decisions are already made, what say do we have in it?"

20Who in the world do you think you are to second-guess God? Do you for one moment suppose any of us knows enough to call God into question? Clay doesn't talk back to the fingers that mold it, saying, "Why did you shape me like this?" 21Isn't it obvious that a potter has a perfect right to shape one lump of clay into a vase for holding flowers and another into a pot for cooking beans? 22If God needs one style of pottery especially designed to show his angry displeasure 23and another style carefully crafted to show his glorious goodness, isn't that all right? 24Either or both happens to Jews, but it also happens to the other people. 25Hosea put it well:

I'll call nobodies and make them somebodies;

I'll call the unloved and make them beloved.

26In the place where they yelled out, "You're nobody!"

they're calling you "God's living children."

27Isaiah maintained this same emphasis:

If each grain of sand on the seashore were numbered

and the sum labeled "chosen of God,"

They'd be numbers still, not names;

salvation comes by personal selection.

28God doesn't count us; he calls us by name.

Arithmetic is not his focus.

29Isaiah had looked ahead and spoken the truth:

If our powerful God

had not provided us a legacy of living children,

We would have ended up like ghost towns,

like Sodom and Gomorrah.

30How can we sum this up? All those people who didn't seem interested in what God was doing actually embraced what God was doing as he straightened out their lives. 31And Israel, who seemed so interested in reading and talking about what God was doing, missed it. 32How could they miss it? Because instead of trusting God, they took over. They were absorbed in what they themselves were doing. They were so absorbed in their "God projects" that they didn't notice God right in front of them, like a huge rock in the middle of the road. And so they stumbled into him and went sprawling. 33Isaiah (again!) gives us the metaphor for pulling this together:

Careful! I've put a huge stone on the road to Mount Zion,

a stone you can't get around.

But the stone is me! If you're looking for me,

you'll find me on the way, not in the way.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inkspot again: It seems to me that Paul is lamenting the loss of Israel here, and speaks of Pharaoh as one that God used to point Israel in the right direction (although Israel ignored the warning), he's not, to my mind, saying in general God hardens hearts against him, but used Pharaoh for this purpose, to connect with Israel.

Then verses 30, 32,"All those people who didn't seem interested in what God was doing actually embraced what God was doing as he straightened out their lives. 31And Israel, who seemed so interested in reading and talking about what God was doing, missed it."

It still seems to me Paul is saying that we can embrace or reject God when He calls to us. :)

nillascowboy

06-17-2005, 11:01 AM

Smog - good to here from you buddy. You are right on the money. While I stated I won't argue logic alone - I will address one part of Tarumbar's logic sense I think it accurately shows how he uses it to his own means.

"Men do not seek after God (Romans 3:10ff)
God must have mercy on a man, before he is saved (Romans 9:16)
Therefore, uising simple logicl, men cannot choose God, but rather God must choose us."

Turambar-
---------"The argument is invalid. Even though both premises are true, the conclusion does not follow from the premises. It is possible for the conclusion to be true even if the premises are false. This is simple logic.

An example of true premises and a false conclusion here could be this: God has mercy on man, and offers eternal life. Man chooses to accept (or decline) the gift, now that God has offered it. "Men do not seek after God" says nothing of not being able to make a choice after God has sought man out."--------------------------

If man doesn't seek God, how can he choose God? Say he has the right to choose - then the "logical" conclusion is no one will be saved. You are using logic to advance your own means and aren't truly being an objective observer that you claim to be. Sound doctrine tells us people are saved. You kick and scream that we aren't using logic. But you aren't being speaking truth in light of scripture. That's the problem. Smog thanks for presenting your case but I suggest in the future when Turambar goes down this path we don't even honor it with a response.

Inked states:
Very far gone from original righteousness" is accurate, true, and correct. But you heretics can believe what you will, since you will to do so! On the flip side, I'll take Jesus, "Come unto me," "No one who comes to me will be turned away," "Thirsty? Come!," "Seek and find," "Knock and it shall be opened,"..."Ask and you shall receive."

-These verses again don't trouble predestination. As believers we must choose Christ. The argument is that we can't unless God changes our disposition to do so. When I have more time I will go into "Irresistable grace".

"God so loved...that all that believe in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

- I'm not sure how this involves predestination and free-will. We are talking about God's role in salvation. No problem with this verse.

"This is a true saying, and worthy of all men to be received, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners." -

Predestined people are sinners too. Again no issue here.

"If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and he is the perfect offering for our sins, and NOT for ours only, BUT FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD."

- So the whole world will be saved?

Inked you say that Total Depravity makes God out to be something other than totally good. But if, using the free-will definition of foreknowledge, God knows who will choose Him and who won't, isn't he still violating His goodness by going ahead a creating those that won't choose him? He still sentenced them to hell before time. He could have just as easily not created them. Then they would have no eternal punishment. He could have created them to be children of Godly parents to give them a better chance. Isn't God being unfair by creating people to be children of devout Muslims? He isn't giving them a fair chance, is He? I'm not sure where you are going with God talking to Adam and Eve after the Fall. Please explain.

Inked - I'm sorry to hear you agree so full-heartedly with Turambar on logic. God gave us the ability to reason but never above His Word. Turambar would have us believe everyone who questions his logic with scripture is an uneducated fool. Thank you for at least presenting scripture for us to discuss. And for those who would rather play holier than thou by claiming I am avoiding the issue rather than looking back two posts: #109 is the original list of scriptures that I address in post #111.

Turambar

06-17-2005, 06:06 PM

If man doesn't seek God, how can he choose God?

Simple! When God seeks him out and gives him the option (as he did with all). God made himself known to us; we did not create him in our minds. We still have the option to reject his revelation, as many do.

Say he has the right to choose - then the "logical" conclusion is no one will be saved.

Only if you believe that he can't choose in the first place. You are using circular logic here.

Smog thanks for presenting your case but I suggest in the future when Turambar goes down this path we don't even honor it with a response.

You mean like you just did? It's sad, really, when people can't just admit that they have been wrong. Instead, they claim that they won't acknowledge the person that pointed out their error, and think that somehow justifies their false claims.

These verses again don't trouble predestination. As believers we must choose Christ. The argument is that we can't unless God changes our disposition to do so. When I have more time I will go into "Irresistable grace".

So now you are saying that we do have a choice to accept or reject Christ? There can be no choice if there is only one option. (Eww, it's that whole logic thing again...) The passages cited imply that there is an option.

So the whole world will be saved?

Well, if you suppose fallacious ideas about predestination, then the answer would be yes. However, this is clearly not the case, as we know that some are not saved. It looks like you've proven yourself wrong using recuctio ad absurdum. If the passage is true, and your belief in predestination is also true, then we end up with something that we know is false. Therefore, either your belief about predestination is false, or scripture is false. You haven't exactly proven yourself to be infallible, so I'm going to put my money on God.

Inked you say that Total Depravity makes God out to be something other than totally good. But if, using the free-will definition of foreknowledge, God knows who will choose Him and who won't, isn't he still violating His goodness by going ahead a creating those that won't choose him?

Not at all! He has given them all the option of salvation. If they choose to reject it, that is not His choice. If your belief in predestination, though, does suppose that he is not good by condemning people without giving them a choice.

He still sentenced them to hell before time.

Only if you believe in predestination. Circular logic again.

Isn't God being unfair by creating people to be children of devout Muslims? He isn't giving them a fair chance, is He?

It's a better chance than none at all!

God gave us the ability to reason but never above His Word.

There it is yet again. Somehow you make me out to be reasoning against scripture. I'm only reasoning against your bad ideas about it.

Turambar would have us believe everyone who questions his logic with scripture is an uneducated fool.

No, only people that think they don't need to use logic to determine truth. Actually, I wouldn't use such harch names; you put them into my mouth. I think that you may be uneducated in one specific area (we all have them), but I'm sure there's plenty of time to change that.

And for those who would rather play holier than thou by claiming I am avoiding the issue rather than looking back two posts: #109 is the original list of scriptures that I address in post #111.

I know where they are. The problem is that you haven't addressed any of them yet even though you claim that you have, as I pointed out before.

Lunis

06-17-2005, 11:06 PM

Allright, guys. This is supposed to be a discussion, not a heated arguement. A discussion where we all throw out things from our heart, mind, and scripture, as God (hopefully not ourselves and our pride or just our plain teaching from other men) leads us. Please, it shouldn't get personal. Hmm, and I have a little question...

Do you think God is really going to care if you get to heaven and say (a) I know that You chose me, Lord, and I just responded to Your will, thanks for saving me or (b) I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to choose You, God, thanks for saving me.

Well, that's all I have to say, but I hope you guys consider what you're saying to eachother. I'm not naming names, but you yourself, as a Christian and brother in Christ, should know if you're going too far or not. Just think before you act, (or meditate and even pray before you post) ;). (*Thia L.

nillascowboy

06-18-2005, 02:04 AM

Lunis, You are correct. I took an examination as to why I wanted to join this discussion and the last few posts have not been useful in any matter. I joined because I believe Scripture explicitly teaches predestination. I didn't claim to be an expert on predestination. Turambar did not present his responses in a way that helped me see the other side but in way that was negative and unproductive. What do I mean? He accused me of twisting words, but when I tried to bring the discussion back around to the heart of predestination he ommitted what I said. I said that God enables us to choose and gave a quick note that I would like to come back to "Irresistable Grace". He didn't ask me to explain in his post, he simply attacked me by saying I'm double-talking predestination and free-will. I knew that is how it would sound and that's why I wanted to talk about "irresistable grace" at some point. There was no questioning that phrase for further clarification or discussion - just an insult on my intelligence. Turambar put on me on the defensive because he questioned bits and pieces of everything I posted. Yet there are some points he didn't address directly, so am I to assume those were ok? Or did Turambar not have enough time to refute everything word for word? The fallacy of suppressed evidence maybe? I am sure Turambar will be able to interpret that a different way, but that's ok. He obviously is much more educated and fluent with fallacies than I am, and I admit that. I don't intend to mislead, but his quick accusations are not guiding me to defend my case but to destroy it and me at the same time. I will admit the last couple of posts I have let my emotions get the best of me. Not because I am fighting truth, as I have been accused of, but I want to talk about scripture. I want to hear what other people believe. I want to know the verses that free-will people look to. When I explain them in a predestination light, I want them to explain why they believe what it is. Why am I frustrated? I discussed free-will scripture earlier (109 and 111) and no one has posted anything about my response. In 111, I posted a view on the timelessness of God, again nothing. I asked for scripture refuting Total Depravity, again nothing. It has gotten personal and that's why I'm stopping. Free-will believers who really want a discussion should look at the damage Turambar is doing to this forum. I didn't come here to prove myself more intelligent. Just to question and to answer to the best of my abilities. This is not taking place and I am not being grown in my faith by arguing philosphy and semantics. I have not blatantly nor intentionally violated either of these. It was nice meeting those that posted. Nillascowboy signing off. God bless.

inkspot

06-18-2005, 11:09 AM

I hope you won't quit, Cowboy. Turambar should just take it easy on you, and you can ignore his posts if you want or try to take it easy on him. either way. Logic has a place in these discussions, clearly.

I think I did mention in an earlier post that I don't believe our beliefs either way on this topic affect our salvation, it is just an interesting intellectual exercise for us, as Lunis points out. It's not a big deal.

Now I apologize, I did miss post #111 while I was away, and I will add the pertinent parts here.
It is human nature to assume that because God told us to choose him that we could do it. God gave us the Ten Commandments and other laws but we have no ability to keep them. Galatians 3:22-25 - " But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." So why did God give us the law which we can't fulfill (I assume we agree on grace versus works)? To drive us to Christ by recognizing our guilt.
You have already answered this question: God gave us the law which we cannot keep as a forerunner of the grace that would be ours through Christ (Hebrews 10:1, The law is a shadow of the good things to come...)
This goes back to total depravity, which is key to this discussion. Paul talked about this: Romans 7:19 - "For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to doâ€”this I keep on doing."
If you are saying total depravity makes it impossible for us to choose God, you are relying on logic. Horrors! :) But the other thing is that the logic doesn't work, because non-believers do plenty of good things: people with no knowledge of Jesus still love their families, give to charities, feel compassion... Inked is right that our first parents were not depraved, and while their choice to sin marred our future, it could not completely destroy the original goodness God placed in them. To my mind. I understand Scripture says none seek after God and there is none righteous, but the facts remain that non-believers can still do good things. How could this be if we did not have something of goodness left in us, distorted as it may be, from before the Fall? And if we can do some good things in our fallen state -- like feel mercy and compassion -- why can we not accept Christ when He calls to us?

While that deals with your verses on choice
Not so fast! See above.

the verses that deal with the word "all" need to be looked at in light of scripture. We know that all men aren't saved. So if all men aren't saved, what does "all" mean? Well, either it means "all" in the literal sense and the Bible is false or it is referring to the elect. These verses only make sense in a predestination light.
This is a nice interpretation if you are defending predestination, but I can defend free will with these same Scriptures by saying that Christ IS the Savior of all (there is no other Man for the job) but that not ALL choose Him, which seems clear in 1 Timothy 4:10, "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." The Savior of all, and especially those who accept Him!

It's like if I'm the trash man in your neighborhood, I'm the trash man for all, whether you choose to set your garbage out on the stoop or not, I'm still your trash man. (I know that's a BAD analogy, but I think we can say in these verses that proclaim Christ Savior of ALL that He is Savior of all, but some choose to reject His saving grace -- that still makes those verses make sense without changing the meaning of the word ALL.)

Hebrews 1:3 - "After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." Note the past tense of the word "provide." This clues us in that the payment for our sins was accepted at the cross, not potentially accepted. How is this possible? Election. Foreknowledge. Predestination. I have read through some of the posts about God being outside of time and I don't disagree with that at all. But this is kind of like adding millions of years to the Creation story to make preconceived beliefs fit the Bible. Our God doesn't decieve us, he knows we are bound by time and recognizes the importance of relating to us in time. If it is different, He would say so.
I think the last part of your quote here defeats the first part: the reason the verse says provided (past tense) is that God understands we are stuck in linear time so He speaks to us un a way we can understand -- and truly, the price for sins was paid at the cross, I don't dispute it. All that remains is for me, when I hear that good news, is to "confess with my mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in my heart that God hath raised him from the dead," and I will be saved! Hooray!

Now, I posted the whole chapter which Pre-Desties refer to a lot, and I posted my ideas on the verses you like, in context. Does anyone have anything to say about that?

Turambar

06-18-2005, 11:21 AM

I'd like to start off by admitting that I have been more harsh here than I usually am, and I do want to apologize to you, nillascowboy. I also want you to understand that I am not trying to attack you as a person, but I definitely do want to attack claims you make that I believe to be false.

"We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ." - 2 Corinthians 10:5

Turambar did not present his responses in a way that helped me see the other side but in way that was negative and unproductive.
Instead of continually attacking the way I say things, try getting back to what I say. Look at my responses and consider if they are logical/make sense or not. It will be a lot more productive that way. This discussion could be a lot more productive with more logical debate and less complaining about the other person.

He accused me of twisting words, but when I tried to bring the discussion back around to the heart of predestination he ommitted what I said.
Please think about what you just said. If I see someone saying something false about scripture, of course I am going to omit/refute it. What is my other option? To accept it, and that is something that would simply be dishonest. If we accepted everything that everyone said, this would be a very confusing world, wouldn't it?

There was no questioning that phrase for further clarification or discussion - just an insult on my intelligence.
Instead of claiming that I am insulting your intelligence, why not explain yourself?

Turambar put on me on the defensive because he questioned bits and pieces of everything I posted. Yet there are some points he didn't address directly, so am I to assume those were ok? Or did Turambar not have enough time to refute everything word for word? I did my best not to quote small pieces of information but take the refuting post as a whole if it permitted. The fallacy of suppressed evidence maybe?
There are some things I did not address, and if you would like me to give my opinion on any of them, just let me know which statements you want me to look at! There were some things you said that were very true, and that I do not disagree with. I addressed the things that I did disagree with, or that I thought were worth discussing. Instead of claiming that I am ignoring you, provide an example of something you said that needs to be reconciled.

On the flip side, there are countless things I or others have said that you have ignored (and I have already pointed some of these out). My recent statements about choice are a good example. If you are going to accuse me of ignoring you, you had better be sure that you don't make yourself look like a hypocrite and do the same yourself (please take this as advice rather than a personal attack, that's how it was meant). If you want this to be productive, let's make it productive!

I don't intend to mislead, but his quick accusations are not guiding me to defend my case but to destroy it and me at the same time.
Actually, I would like to destroy your "case," because I feel it is false. Instead of letting yourself get destroyed with it, I would rather see you drop it altogether and let it go. Clinging to false interpretations of scripture is a very dangerous thing.

I want to hear what other people believe.
I believe that, as Inked said, God is not an ass. I believe that He doesn't just throw people into Hell while denying them the gift of salvation that He says He has given to all people.

I want to know the verses that free-will people look to.
Many have been posted in this thread. You still have not addressed Inkspot's.

Here's also another idea. Even though there has been much scriptural support for free will already given, let's not pick and choose individual verses for a moment. Let's also look at God's Word as a whole. Does he seem to be saying that He sent Jesus to die for all people that fall short of his glory, or only for specific people that he has elected? What theme does the entire "story" seem to present?

When I explain them in a predestination light, I want them to explain why they believe what it is.
Please explain some of the passages in a predestination light, then.

Why am I frustrated? I discussed free-will scripture earlier (109 and 111) and no one has posted anything about my response. In 111, I posted a view on the timelessness of God, again nothing.
I said nothing regarding this? I think you might have missed what I said in post #129, so I'll repost it:

"Basically, this is what I see from the post regarding the "choice" verses. You talked about total depravity, and then said, "that deals with your verses on choice." I don't see any of the verses actually addressed specifically. Are they all simply invalidated by your interpretation of two or three passages?

Also, I don't see how your comments on time have anything to do with the real issue. Please explain."

I haven't gotten a response to this yet, so please don't accuse me of picking and choosing the things I want to respond to.

It has gotten personal and that's why I'm stopping.
Well, if you want to bring it to the personal level and then stop because you have done so, go ahead. Just don't try to imply that I attacked you personally when I have consistently been addressing the truth of the matter instead of the way you argue.

This is not taking place and I am not being grown in my faith by arguing philosphy and semantics.
Perhaps you are not allowing yourself to learn from your mistakes. If you are honestly searching for truth, you will address the issues at hand instead of attacking the way I present them.

Smog

06-18-2005, 03:29 PM

Ok, I am really sick (and full of Nightquill, Dayquill, and alot of Sodium Neproxin:D), sop I need to make this short.

I just wanted to clarify that Total Depravity does not mean that all men are Completely evil (which is what I think some of you think it means) but rather that all areas of life are effected by sin. This means that, because of Adam, everything in creation has been distorted by sin. Wicked men can still do good, just like good men can do evil. Does this make sense? (Btw, the way that this effects our salvation, is because, since men are sinful, they cannot choose to follow God of their own accord, God must change the heart before a man can follow Him).

Cowboy, please don't go. I'm sorry if you've been offended by what people have said, but don't leave because of it. We must stnd firm for the truth of God's word, even when it gets nasty. Please don't leave this disscusion (and don't leave me with the "Free Willies";))

The Prince

06-18-2005, 03:38 PM

Thanks, Inkspot.

Prince, the point is that it had to be accepted. It was not forced onto people. Salvation is a gift that can be accepted or rejected.

mabey in some way there might be some free will BUT I know that God doesn't reveal salvation to everyone(Like hardening pharoas(sp)heart against the isralites he pharao couldn't help it)and no one in there right mind would reject salvation once it was revealed to them

ps mabey we will find out in heaven.................

Lunis

06-18-2005, 07:56 PM

ps mabey we will find out in heaven.................

Most likely we will. ;) There are a lot of things I hope to discover more about in Heaven, plus there will be totally knew ideas, and we might find out not one of us had our "doctrine" completely right. Lol, most likely we as fallen humans can not really, fully understand God's "theology" and "doctrine," which are words we made up. ;) I can't wait to learn heaven's language...(*Thia

Turambar

06-19-2005, 02:14 AM

Ok, I am really sick (and full of Nightquill, Dayquill, and alot of Sodium Neproxin:D), sop I need to make this short.

Get better, Smog!

Smog

06-19-2005, 12:36 PM

Thanks, I'm feeling better.

inkspot

06-21-2005, 09:12 AM

I know that God doesn't reveal salvation to everyone(Like hardening pharoas(sp)heart against the isralites he pharao couldn't help it)and no one in there right mind would reject salvation once it was revealed to them
Please see my post on the previous page which contains the entire chapter of Romans where Paul discusses how God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and why: He was making an example of him for us. Of course God can do that, but it does not negate free will: it only negated it in a certain case, for our benefit, as an historical example.

As for no one in their right mind rejecting salvation: the devil is described as the prince of the air, the ruler of this world, with such evil influences ruling our home world, can any of us be considered in our right mind? But this does not negate free will, either: it only proves to what great lengths God will go to rescue anyone who calls to Him, to save us amidst the spiritual wickedness that reigns in our world. Joel 2:32, "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Smog, I hope you are feeling much better. Praying for you.

Euphrates

06-23-2005, 05:34 AM

People, people, people... let's not get too worked up. Instead, let's look at Scripture!

No one is questioning that we are predestined. That is supported in the Bible.

Clearly we have choice. The Bible frequently mentions freedoms and choices and such. This all supports free will. I'm seriously surprised that people can deny what is clearly stated in Scripture.

The solution: we have free will and are pedestined. Yeah, it works.

Look at the story I gave you way back in the beginning of this thread. About God choosing which causal sequence to actualize. Apply anything in Scripture against that story, and I'm certain that it works out well.

Gymfan15

06-27-2005, 07:00 PM

A friend once put it to me this way and I like it.

"God has a plan for everyone's life, and its all written out from when we are born until we die. If we follow exactly what God tells us to through his Word and prayer, then our lifes will go exactly as God originally intended.

But God created us with a mind, a will. He gave us the means to make decisions for ourselves, and while we really arn't supposed to do anything without checking with him first (and when I mean anything I mean ANYTHING, lol), we usually don't and do things our way. And our way is not always God's way.

So sometimes we take turns that arn't exactly in the plan that God has for us. So he says, 'Well, he/she wouldn't listen, so there goes Plan A; I'll modify it a bit to fit this discrepency in to make Plan B."

Sometimes it isn't until we are on Plan 398556L when we actually realize that God wants us to literally give up our rights and our life to him and let him make the decisions for us so we can follow his plan to the letter."

God wants us to be like sheep, who just do what the Shepherd tells them to without questioning. Sometimes they stray, but the Good Shepherd brings them back and they learn to trust, no questions asked.

But God didn't make us blind followers like sheep..he gave us a mind. We're more like goats in that sense (lol), doing what we like. But God didn't say "All we like Goats"..he said "All we like Sheep". Its hard to just give your entire life over to him and say, 'I'll do whatever you like, no questions asked". But its what He wants us to do.

Was Adam and Eve's sinning in God's original plan for them? Of course not. But they had a mind and will and they did it anyway, and he had to modify it.

God knows everything. Sometimes when he knows we're about to do something very rash, he will intervene but he did give us a will, and he generally lets us use it, for good or for bad. Its a blessing and a curse.

Well..I strayed from the original topic a bit but I hoped from my jumbled thoughts you could pick out what I meant. :)

Smog

06-27-2005, 07:20 PM

That's an interesting point Gym, however, do you have any scriptural evidence that supports your theory? Also, could it be that God allowed Adam and Eve to sin, and therefore bring death into His creation, so that He might show His love and glory by giving us Jesus Christ who ha redeemed creation?

Euphrates, you keep saying that Predestination and Free will can go together. However, I have continued to show that they cannot because the two contradict each other. Let me explain:
Predestination: God chooses men, therefore Salvation is only from God.
Free Will: Men choose to serve God, therefore, Salvation is by works, and not grace.

Does this make sense why the two don't fit togeher?

Euphrates, can you give Biblical support ( yes, I know that you already have) that men can choose God. And please, could you try and use verses that only talk about men having free will to choose God, and not verses that simply use the word choose?

If you can I would really appreciate it. Thanks.

Gymfan15

06-27-2005, 07:39 PM

There are somethings that are just too complex for the human mind to decipher. Somthings that maybe God never intended us to understand fully..just trust and believe.

Perhaps this is one of them?

That being said, I'm afraid I can't give you any Biblical references for the simple fact that I am not very learned in the Scriptures. (i.e. I havn't read it cover to cover..I should but I havn't. :( )

Tarkheena_Finduilas22

06-28-2005, 09:22 AM

It's kinda hard to jump into these conversations, eh?

jasper77

03-17-2006, 06:18 PM

I've listened to both sides of the issue of predestination/freewill. I haven't fully researched this matter yet, but I am in the process.
One thing I want to point out. God is a just God...no question. His word says whoa to them that hear the gospel and reject it. How could God punish these people for their rejection if they had no choice in the matter in the first place.

inkspot

03-17-2006, 06:25 PM

Yes, that's a good point ... but suppose he made them to be the kind of people who reject the gospel because he knew deep down they were going to reject it?

jasper77

03-17-2006, 07:05 PM

That also is a good point, but in order to explain any side of this issue, we must use scripture . Otherwise , the answers we give boils down to our opinion.
Consider this. Paul said work out your own salvation. This sounds like free will. What do you think.

Charn_Tim

03-17-2006, 07:11 PM

Actually, the whole scripture is: "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." (Phil. 2:12). If you only say the first part and don't include the second part, it sounds like it's all about our free will. But if you only say the second part and don't include the first part, then it sounds like it's all about predestination. I believe that Paul embraces the paradoxical relationship of predestination vs. free will (or almost equivalently, faith vs. works). It seems to me that Paul is saying that you can't have one without the other.

jasper77

03-17-2006, 07:22 PM

I do tend to lean toward us having a free will, but I am in the beginning stages of researching this matter. I do know there are much scripture that seems to support predestination, I still think there is something we are missing.
Do not get me wrong. I also realize after studying the scriptures I could find that predestination is in fact true.
Until then, I will continue seeking the truth in scripture and seeking what others have found in scripture.
( forgive me if I ever get into a discussion with whoever out there... I don't type very fast.)

Charn_Tim

03-17-2006, 07:32 PM

That's a really good attitude to have (it's pretty much the attitude I have as well :)), and I honestly think it's the attitude Christians should have, because I don't think that we'll ever fully be able to understand this concept this side of "The New Narnia." It also seems like there are dangers if we start leaning too much toward one side or the other. For example, one who believes solely in predestination might think "why should I be a missionary, if it's totally up to God who he allows to be saved?" or if one leans toward free will, they might tend to trust in themselves for their salvation.

One famous Christian (I forget who it was) said this, "Pray like it all depends on God, and act as if it all depends on you" and I think this captures the essence of how we should think about (and act upon) this paradox.

By the way, welcome to this site, I haven't seen you post here before :)

jasper77

03-17-2006, 07:40 PM

Tim, your comment is very refreshing. Usually, when I get into a discussions on deep subjects such as this and bring up what I believe to be a good point I never , at least I can't remember ever hearing anyone say, you make a good point or i've never considered that.
Not that I want to feel good about making a good point, but it almost like the other party thinks there is nothing else to consider but their comment.

Warrior-Poet51088

03-17-2006, 07:41 PM

That's a really good attitude to have (it's pretty much the attitude I have as well :)), and I honestly think it's the attitude Christians should have, because I don't think that we'll ever fully be able to understand this concept this side of "The New Narnia." It also seems like there are dangers if we start leaning too much toward one side or the other. For example, one who believes solely in predestination might think "why should I be a missionary, if it's totally up to God who he allows to be saved?" or if one leans toward free will, they might tend to trust in themselves for their salvation.

If y'all haven't already, I recommend reading through this thread, because we've already established that Predestination is different from God's Sovereignty, the latter of which is what jasper seems to be addressing, while C_T is addressing the former.

jasper77

03-17-2006, 07:53 PM

Warrior,
Thanks for the heads up. I've actually gotten into discussions where I tried to make the point that just because God gave us a free will does'nt mean He isn't sovereign. I don't think this comment went very far.
By the way this discussion wasn't on this thread.

Warrior-Poet51088

03-18-2006, 10:25 AM

By the way this discussion wasn't on this thread.

See Capstick's post on page 3 (and a few of the following posts).

unleavened

03-18-2006, 06:33 PM

This subject is very mysterious. Like CT said, I don't think we can ever full know what goes on. Perhaps it is too big for human minds to understand.

inkspot

03-21-2006, 03:47 PM

If there's no predestination ... would it mean something was out of God's control and actually in our control? And is this concept biblical, for us to have control of something God does not?

EveningStar

03-21-2006, 04:36 PM

Why can't one have both procrastination AND free will? When allowed, I put chores off till the last second...

Oh, pre-DESTINATION! :D

I hate to split hairs here but I'll drop my two cents in after a long time of steering clear of this thread.

I believe that God can know the future absolutely without being responsible for it. So if you shoot your mother and stab your father, obviously, God did not make you do it. But he had foreknowledge of it. I must admit that I never tiptoe through the TULIPs (remark directed at those who know what I mean, the others can safely ignore it).

It is quite possible that both views are right. That you DO have free will, and yet, in the strictest sense, the rules by which minds work, forces of nature come into play, and the fact that time itself may never have been linear to begin with, that God experiences the entirity of history at any given moment. A view that can comfort those who wonder why Jesus only died on the Cross 2000 years ago rather than giving Pharoah Cheops or Moses a chance. For such one time spiritual events time itself may not matter in the least.

Oh, funny coincidence, this thread came up in NEW THREADS next to "Did you order/Preorder Narnia?" I suppose if you were predestined to preorder you did and if you have free will, you will when you're free.

jasper77

03-21-2006, 05:36 PM

My thing is I believe that us having a free will does not negate God's sovereighnty. He is the one who gave us the free will.Before God created anything He conceived it. He knew He was going to create us and knew He was going to love us enough to give us a free will.
He also knew in doing this the choices we would make. Since God knew and knows everthing that would happen He set things in motion accordingly.
This is why He is still sovereign, because it is Him that did everything.
God's plan will not be thwarted, so any decision we would make that would interfere with His plan He knew ahead of time and changed or diverted accordingly. God knows what was, what is, what could have been in any potential situation, and what will be. Humankind having a freewill doesn't change that, it just shows God's awesome love for us.
This is my opinion, and for now I cannot back this entire thought up by scripture.

PrinceOfTheWest

03-21-2006, 05:55 PM

The difficulty is that free will itself is a mystery to us, even without introducing rebellious free will. We know two truths because God has told them to us:

1) God is totally sovereign, and when He creates, He does not sacrifice one shred of that sovereignity to any of His creation - even the beings with free will such as men and angels.

2) God is perfectly just - in fact, we get our definitions of justice from Him. If even we sin-damaged humans can recognize that it is a violation of justice to punish a being for that which it cannot control, then how much more would God recognize such truth?

These truths are in tension, at least to our space-and-time restricted minds. We cannot comprehend how God can retain sovereignity over all things, and yet still have some of His beings seemingly defy His will in rebellion. Doesn't the very rebellion mean something is going against His will? Or, if men can be damned and He's sovereign, then doesn't that mean He intended them to be damned? And if so, how could that be just?

It's not hard to see that the problem isn't the tension, but our restricted comprehension. We can't think outside space and time any more than we can imagine a new color unlike any we've ever seen. We cannot see all times at once, as God can. We cannot comprehend how His infinite will enfolds and encompasses our lesser wills, nor can we understand how our choices interact with His will. What we can, and must, do is trust - trust that when God tells us something, it's true, even if we can't understand it.

Charn_Tim

03-21-2006, 06:12 PM

Prince of the West, you always manage to kill perfectly good discussions with the perfect post!! :p :) I agree completely; I was trying to get at that in my last post-that there is a paradox there (or tension as you succinctly put it), and that we must trust in his goodness. Well said, friend.

jasper77

03-21-2006, 06:15 PM

Prince of the West,

Amen to your comment...Praise the Lord!

inkspot

03-21-2006, 07:00 PM

So, our part is to trust that what God says is true, even if we don't understand it. So which did He say is true:
Predestination or Free Will? :)

PrinceOfTheWest

03-21-2006, 09:00 PM

He said both are true. For instance, the Elect are chosen by God and granted the grace of Final Perseverence to see through the race at to the end and receive the crown. But all men are also called to turn from their rebellion and embrace the forgiveness that God offers. If they refuse, they will have no excuse for their rebellion and God will judge them justly.

It's more accurate to say that "Predestination" and "Free Will" are terms we time-bound humans use to describe things we can't understand. For instance, if I were to write a computer program that would destroy my hard drive when it ran, I could hardly punish it for "being bad" - it was only doing what I told it to do. I retained control, and thus it's misbehaviour was a manifestation of my control. Or, I could write a computer program with an element of randomness in it - one that might destroy my hard drive, or might not. In that case I could say that the program "disobeyed" if it destroyed the hard drive, but I could only say that because I'd yeilded some of my control to randomness.

But that's because I'm a limited human. I can't put my "image" into a program in the way that God can put His image into us. I'm timebound, He's not. In the case of men, and all beings with free will, we are both subject to God's sovereignity and free to make our own decisions - for which we will be justly judged - at the same time.

onlymystory

03-21-2006, 09:34 PM

I know I've always been confused over how this works. I couldn't understand how God could choose people (the elect) but still offer everyone the choice to come to Him. But one day a good friend put it this way. He said it was like colleges recruiting their next football team. A college (lets use Texas because they're the best) goes out and learns about the potential recruits. They figure out who are the best at the game. Who knows the plays best and works well as a part of a team. Then after checking out all the possibilities, Texas sends out letters to the players they think will make the best overall contribution to the team. They are certainly willing to take other players, but these select few are the ones who are expected to be the best. But even though Texas has picked their players, the athletes still have a choice. they can play for texas but they can also play for USC. they've been selected for greatness, but they can still make the choice to play for a lesser team.

God works a little similiar. He sends out a recruitment letter to everyone through the Bible telling you He's selected you to be His for all time. But you still have to send your letter of intent to him (in the form of accepting Jesus Christ). You still have the final choice whether to play for the winning team or the losing team.

Charn_Tim

03-21-2006, 09:52 PM

hmm, yes, I think I agree for the most part, but we must be careful not to stretch that analogy too far. For example, that picture kind of portrays God as not really in control, even of our own "will" (which he is of course). Also, who are the players who've received the recruitment letter supposed to represent? All of us? Then who do the players who aren't given the recruitment letter supposed to represent?

(Sorry if I'm being picky, I'm just not sure if I'm catching your meaning here...)

I can't put my "image" into a program in the way that God can put His image into us. I'm timebound, He's not. In the case of men, and all beings with free will, we are both subject to God's sovereignity and free to make our own decisions - for which we will be justly judged - at the same time.
I really like that analogy, PotW-of not being able to put your image into it. It really highlights the difference.

onlymystory

03-21-2006, 10:01 PM

I know its hard to describe it online. Its easier in person. But that's why I said God is a little similiar. Its not exactly the same. That was just easier for me to understand. I'm an English major after all, it takes a lot of stories for me to get something. And if I understand it right, the recruitment letter is for more the pastors and missionaries etc. who have been called by God for more. However, colleges are open to anyone. So everyone can apply and any football player can join the team. They just might not have as front stage a role to play. So I think God places a higher calling on some people but he still leaves an open invitaton for everyone. Did that make more sense?

Charn_Tim

03-21-2006, 10:49 PM

Thanks, onlymystory...yeah, it's obviously hard to find analogies and none are perfect, but that was helpful, and it does make more sense.

~Grateful * Surrender~

03-21-2006, 10:52 PM

I think Prince of the West is totally right. And yes, onlymystory, that did. My take on it is this. I know this may sound a bit far fetched and like I am just brushing it away but I'm not. I think the Bible has a few instances of 100% 100%. I mean that like for instance Jesus...he was 100% Man yet 100% God. How is that possible??? We with our finite minds cannot even begin to try and grasp the thought of that. Same thing here we are 100% predestined, because God knows every move that we are going to make from birth to death, and 100% freewill, Because God still gives us the chance to make those choices. I know that sounds a bit wacked and even maybe a little stupid or childish but I think...no I believe, that is truly how it is.

jasper77

03-21-2006, 11:11 PM

With God all things are possible.

Charn_Tim

03-21-2006, 11:17 PM

I like it, The Forgiven Traitor. There are even cases in the Bible that are 100% 100% 100%: the trinity. It's true, but if it wasn't hard to understand, it wouldn't be reality. Like C.S. Lewis says, one of the reasons he believes in Christianity is that it isn't a religion any of us could have made up!

onlymystory

03-22-2006, 12:29 AM

If we as mortals could truly and completely understand God; He wouldn't be the God we claim to believe in. He would be nothing more than an elevated man. And I believe in a God I don't truly understand. I have faith not religion. And that is what makes all the difference.

inkspot

03-22-2006, 10:19 AM

Yes, I think this is the answer: predestination and free will are both true, and this is possible because they are both in the mind of God ... or else, they are both ways of saying the same thing: with God all things are possible.

Gryphon

03-22-2006, 02:04 PM

i think of it as a marraige proposal, God chooses us but we have to make the final decision to follow him.

Also, i didnt know threads like this were allowed? :confused: although if everyone is being peaceful about it i really dont mind.

Although, I once told a friend concerning the subject of predestination that a dog doesnt have to know where the master supplies his food. There are some things we cant possibly understand, i believe that predestination is one of them. My Dad once said "Predestination is two dementional thinking on a 3 dementional subject."

inkspot

03-22-2006, 02:06 PM

Yes, your dad is right!

(The religion Threads were unlocked a few months ago, and no one has been rude in them since, so they are allowed now.)

Gryphon

03-23-2006, 01:18 AM

haha, k, making sure... cause you never know :rolleyes:

Lawrence

03-23-2006, 11:26 PM

What did the Calvinist say when he fell down the stairs in the morning?

"Whew, I'm glad that's over."

Pax,
L

unleavened

03-25-2006, 01:33 AM

Charn_Tim

03-25-2006, 03:14 AM

I'm very glad to see that some others on this thread have come to the same conclusion I have. 1) We can't really truely understand God's working in this area. 2) Somehow Both predestination and free will work together and both are true.
Right...now the hard part is convincing critics of Christianity that it is actually a paradox, and not a contradiction...

By the way, Lawrence, you really ought to hang out in the land of the duffers more often. Posts like that make a valuable contribution to the babbling looniness :D

straitjackit

03-25-2006, 08:44 AM

Yes and no, what I am saying is that all of us are guilty before God. We have all sinned and therefore we all deserve death. However, God chooses to save some of us from this estate of sin and death, while He chooses others to stay within this fallen state and be damned to hell. If God has not chosen us to be saved, then we cannot be saved. However, if He has predestined us for salvation, then we will be saved. Does this make sense?

That's a pretty depressing thought, isn't it?

PrinceOfTheWest

03-25-2006, 09:50 AM

That's a pretty depressing thought, isn't it?(My, my - doing a lot of posting this morning, aren't we, sj? :))
It is depressing, and all the moreso if one thinks that God just left us here without hope. But His love is greater than our sin, so He's made a way that we can get out of the guilt, if we follow His instructions.

Incidentally, Smog's post includes a conclusion that is a minority view in Christianity. When he says : If God has not chosen us to be saved, then we cannot be saved.he is presuming that God has "chosen" (i.e. destined) some not to be saved. This is not supportable from Scripture, where God says: "For I have no pleasure in the death of any one, says the Lord GOD; so turn, and live." (Ezekiel 18:32)

Smog is proposing what philosophers call "double predestination" - i.e. some are destined for salvation (and nothing can be done about it), while others are destined for damnation (and nothing can be done about that, either). Double predestination is not orthodox Christianity, and was not held by Lewis. The slippery point, and the thrust of this whole thread, is that God destines some for salvation, but those who are damned **** themselves.

straitjackit

03-25-2006, 10:05 AM

PrinceOfTheWest

03-25-2006, 10:06 AM

"EA"?

(10 thingy)

straitjackit

03-25-2006, 10:12 AM

Expressive Arts coursework. I'm writing a book for the project on the hidden stuff in Narnia, such as the religious references and name meanings, the connections to Earth, etc... I'm also including a written bit about The Magician's Nephew animation as part of it (with permission, of course). I'm kinda stumped at what exactly to write at the moment, so I'm pottering around...

10 thingy?

PrinceOfTheWest

03-25-2006, 10:41 AM

"10 thingy" is filler - the forum wants each post to contain at least 10 characters, so old-timers like myself, when making a very short post, will pad it with that phrase. "xxxxxxxxxx" would do just as well.

What's Expressive Arts? Drama & stage performance?

straitjackit

03-25-2006, 04:40 PM

thanks for the 10 thingy explanation. Expressive Arts is a mixture of Art, Drama, Music, Dance and Creative Writing. You can pick any three to do a project and then, using a starting point such as a picture (that's mine) from the exam paper you're given, you make something that's connected to it, using 3 influences. The starting point counts as 1. My other two are the Narnia books (wahey!) and 'The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter', which is about all the references and stuff in the Harry Potter books. Note that I actually hate Harry Potter, but I'll explain that another day. I have to add a bit of Drama to my Art and Creative Writing by performing an advert for the book when I'm finished writing it.
Expressive Arts is fun when you have the time. When you have 1 week to do 8 weeks of coursework, it starts to suck. My mate dropped our project on me last Monday, so I've been working my backside off in order to try and catch up. At least I'm enjoying myself now , writing about something I actually like...

Per Sempre

03-25-2006, 05:54 PM

hey................

unleavened

03-25-2006, 06:07 PM

Puzzle_the_Donky

03-25-2006, 06:18 PM

(My, my - doing a lot of posting this morning, aren't we, sj? :))
It is depressing, and all the moreso if one thinks that God just left us here without hope. But His love is greater than our sin, so He's made a way that we can get out of the guilt, if we follow His instructions.

Incidentally, Smog's post includes a conclusion that is a minority view in Christianity. When he says :he is presuming that God has "chosen" (i.e. destined) some not to be saved. This is not supportable from Scripture, where God says: "For I have no pleasure in the death of any one, says the Lord GOD; so turn, and live." (Ezekiel 18:32)

Smog is proposing what philosophers call "double predestination" - i.e. some are destined for salvation (and nothing can be done about it), while others are destined for damnation (and nothing can be done about that, either). Double predestination is not orthodox Christianity, and was not held by Lewis. The slippery point, and the thrust of this whole thread, is that God destines some for salvation, but those who are damned **** themselves.

I really want to believe in predestination, and that God choses people that get saved. And I really believe in forgive of sins by Christ. And I really do want to believe that the people who get lost in this world and after that in hell have damned themselves, but (I have got the feeling you explained it better elsewhere in this thread) this explain doesn't do to me.

An option for me is that God has given his one-born son to this world. This Son died for our sins. Everyone who asks this Son of Him (Christ) for help honestly will be saved.
In that way forgive of sins is for every-one. But we aren't even able to ask Christ for help honestly, so God decided to help people, asking Christ for help. That group of people has been chosen. That there stays a group of people left that isn't helped by God with this simple thing is their own fault.
It's already a great and amazing grace of God, that he chosed people to help them asking Christ for help. So the chosen people aren't any better than not-chosen people. They've got just one pro: the help of God.

In that way in my feelings God stays a God of grace. But still there is one burning question in my heart: "Why doesn't God help everyone, if he doesn't want that anyone dies or goes to hell? If he really doesn't want to let that happen, why doesn't he help the whole world to ask Christ for help?"

I've got just two wrong answers on this question (I haven't got good answers):

1. God isn't that mighty, he cannot save the whole world out of satens claws.
(wrong God really is mighty enough).

2. God hasn't that much grace, he doesn't want to help everyone, because there his love isn't great enough.
(wrong, because God=Love).

I chose to forget my last question, and try to trust God. In heaven everything will become clear to me, but as you can see, It's not totally working.

Has anyone got a suitable answer, which won't be called (if I'm talking about it at school) remonstrantism???

Because for my feeling the answer what is in the post I quoted and my own answer, aren't clear enough in human way of thinking.

(Sorry, if this are all things said or asked before on this thread, but uhm... there is no suitable excuse... :( )

Puzzle_the_Donky

03-25-2006, 06:35 PM

I think a peice of the solution to the predestination and free will conflict is in the concept that God transends time. Although, it doesn't answer all the questions or clear all confusion away. I'm not really sure that's possible. I'll try to word this so I don't further confuse anyone (including myself), but since the concept is hard for the human mind to grasp in the first place, it might be a struggle. We see time liniarly. God does not. He see it as a whole. His plan includes all the choices we have made and are going to make. Yes, we make choices but planned those choices and has them in his plan already. Does this make any sense? I'll have to come back to it in a bit and re-read it to seee.
It makes sense, and it's very clear that all will be clear for us if we (after Jesus return on earth) are in heaven (I hope we are). And I really want to trust God, but if there is one perfect answer, can anyone give it, because this answer, still leaves one question open: "Why doesn't God take the whole world in his plan?"

Has anyone got an answer on this. Or is it reasonably not to explain perfectly, and does it really stay this question of trust: Do you, xxx (xxx=the name of anyone who reads this), trust God in his plan. Do you trust him being wise and gracefull enough? Do you trust him being mighty enough to save everybody? Do you trust him loving the world? Do you trust him that much that you trust him havin saved you as his child?

Is the answer yes or a bit. Then sing "Amazing Grace...", you are saved. Forget about others (however trying to got new brothers in believe is never wrong) you are saved. That's the point. You don't have to ask...

This is what I'm feeling a bit. It's like he is asking me this. (Or did I hear it in bible, or am I asking it myself? Or did I hear this anywhere else?). But there stays a little question (however I can really live with it): Why?

Has anyone an answer? Or is the Only One with the answer waiting for me?

Gryphon

03-26-2006, 02:55 AM

That's a pretty depressing thought, isn't it?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHA *breathes* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

thats what i keep telling him :rolleyes:

unleavened

03-26-2006, 03:18 PM

In that way in my feelings God stays a God of grace. But still there is one burning question in my heart: "Why doesn't God help everyone, if he doesn't want that anyone dies or goes to hell? If he really doesn't want to let that happen, why doesn't he help the whole world to ask Christ for help?"

I've got just two wrong answers on this question (I haven't got good answers):

1. God isn't that mighty, he cannot save the whole world out of satens claws.
(wrong God really is mighty enough).

2. God hasn't that much grace, he doesn't want to help everyone, because there his love isn't great enough.
(wrong, because God=Love).
This truely is the question we all want an answer to, and honestly I'm not sure any answer can truely satisfy b/c it still leaves our friends unsaved. However, to that dissatisfaction God says this:

Rom 9:14 (NIV)
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

Here are the answers I have for you. Fistly you must know I believe both predestination and free will. If you want to know more about that, you'll have to read more of the thread.
Love is a chioice to yield to the best intrest of others. God wants us to serve Him out of love. Therefore He does not force himself on those who do not want Him. Even when God reveals himself and all doubt is truely gone, still some will refuse to believe b/c they do not want to serve Him and give up their lives. (Think like the dwarves in the Last Battle.)

Now let me have a disclaimer to the Predestination people. I know none of us really want God while in our sin, but the work of the Holy Spirit softens our hearts until we are willing and desirous of Him.

Next reason why people remain unsaved. The purpose of this whole creation is to Glorify God. If everyone to get saved no one would have any perspective. How can we really know the fulness of God's grace without seeing the absence of it somewhere? It's sort of the same as when you complain about your mom's cooking until you experience starvation, or even watch a TV show about it.

I've thought long and hard about this. The same question still troubles me, but I trust God's plan (as you said before). I don't know what God is up to, but I do know It is good b/c God is good. He's promised me that. I hope these reasons make sense to you, but don't expect them to make you completely happy.

inkspot

03-27-2006, 05:15 PM

That's good stuff, UL.

I think the most important thing is the idea that God wants us to love Him freely. If He stepped in and made everyone love Him, so everyone would be saved, then what would our love be worth?

It would be like using a love potion on the object of your affection: she would fall for you and stay with you, but all the time you would know: if she hadn't taken the potion, she might have chosen someone else ... so the love itself would be a lie.

God felt it was worth the risk to give us free will: those of us who choose Him do so because we love Him; so our love is genuine, not forced. He didn't want robots who had to love Him because of their programming; He wanted real people to love Him because of who He is ...

CS Lewis tackles this a bit in his book Mere Christianity.

Warrior-Poet51088

03-27-2006, 08:00 PM

Ink, the "love potion" you mention would have to be something much stronger than Miracle Max's "miracle pill," as we were "dead in our transgressions" (Colossians 2:13; emphasis added), not "mostly dead" ("Which is still slightly alive!").

I can't get past that--how can we claim that somehow, we manage to "choose God"? Scripture makes it painfully clear that it is only by His Holy Spirit working in us that we were saved!

See also:

Ephesians 2:4-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%202:4-10;&version=31;)

John 6:44 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%206:44;&version=31;)

PrinceOfTheWest

03-27-2006, 10:49 PM

I can't get past that--how can we claim that somehow, we manage to "choose God"? Scripture makes it painfully clear that it is only by His Holy Spirit working in us that we were saved!There's your problem - you're trying to comprehend it, and it can't be comprehended. It's certainly true that God chooses us, and even our desire to choose Him is a gift from Him - but we still choose, and can be held responsible for that choice. That's why the Scriptures say, "He has placed before you fire and water:stretch out your hand for whichever you wish. Before a man are life and death, and whichever he chooses will be given to him." We can be justly judged for both our good decisions and our bad ones.

Warrior-Poet51088

03-27-2006, 11:07 PM

There's your problem - you're trying to comprehend it, and it can't be comprehended. It's certainly true that God chooses us, and even our desire to choose Him is a gift from Him - but we still choose, and can be held responsible for that choice. That's why the Scriptures say, "He has placed before you fire and water:stretch out your hand for whichever you wish. Before a man are life and death, and whichever he chooses will be given to him." We can be justly judged for both our good decisions and our bad ones.

Hmph, fine good point (lol, I'm not really mad, but you just emasculated my whole argument)! :)

I'll have to think over that one...I tend to want to know, with absolute certainty...

...Mainly cuz I like to be in control...(Ironic, because I'm a firm believer in both predestination and God's sovereignty...)

unleavened

03-27-2006, 11:27 PM

Haha. Of course! All mankind wants to know with absolute ceratainty. I know exactly what you mean. It's hard to swallow that we just can't really know.

Srob

03-27-2006, 11:34 PM

I know on there was a good long thread a while back on this. Warrio-Poet and I had some great conversations and discussions. So if anyone would like to look at that. At this moment, I do not have the time to read all posts---so I will refrain from posting my thoughts so that I do not "re-post" wat has already been stated.

Gryphon

03-27-2006, 11:57 PM

I'll have to think over that one...I tend to want to know, with absolute certainty...
Of course you want to know. However, you cant figure out everything about God, your brain is too puny.

Like I've said before, a dog doesnt have to know where his master supplies his food, only that he can trust his master and love him back. We dont know where God gives us our faith, only that He gives it to us and that we can love Him back.

Charn_Tim

03-28-2006, 01:19 AM

Of course you want to know. However, you cant figure out everything about God, your brain is too puny.
Right. And it's not just that his brain is too puny, all of ours are.

Soren Kierkegaard-one of the most brilliant men who ever lived and is often called the father of modern thought-has helped me to accept that I don't need to understand the intricate details of how this works. But not only that, it gives me a better idea of why we are unable to completely grasp Christianity (and particularly this very issue) rationally. He had this to say about our ability to comprehend the truths of our faith:

Christianity has declared itself to be the eternal, essential truth which has come into being in time...It requires courage to believe that which is logically absurd. Yet it would be surely strange if Christianity had come into the world just to offer a logical explanation of things, as if Jesus himself were merely a philosopher. Christianity came into the world to demand a passionate response from each individual."
At the end of the day, all we really have to worry about is our individual, subjective response to Christ, although it is still helpful to discuss these types of issues.

waterhogboy

03-28-2006, 05:49 AM

I actually agree with Warrior Poet. I believe we lost the free will to decide our own salvation when Adam sinned. If we have the ability to decide whether to follow God or not then it means there is somthing God is not in control of.

Remember, the heart of every man is evil. There is nothing 'naturally' within that we should want to look to God. We prefer to live in the shadows. We need God to drag us kicking and screaming out of the shadows and bring him into his presence.

Its like what Warrior Poet said about us 'being DEAD in sin'. Ive heard a god ananlogy about a precipice. Were hanging over a precipice, the only thing stopping us fallnig is that we're hanging on to God's hand. There's no way we can pull ourselves up - we have to trust and rely on God to do it for us.

inkspot

03-28-2006, 11:49 AM

Warrior-Poet51088

03-28-2006, 05:16 PM

Right. And it's not just that his brain is too puny, all of ours are.

Soren Kierkegaard-one of the most brilliant men who ever lived and is often called the father of modern thought-has helped me to accept that I don't need to understand the intricate details of how this works. But not only that, it gives me a better idea of why we are unable to completely grasp Christianity (and particularly this very issue) rationally. He had this to say about our ability to comprehend the truths of our faith:

Christianity has declared itself to be the eternal, essential truth which has come into being in time...It requires courage to believe that which is logically absurd. Yet it would be surely strange if Christianity had come into the world just to offer a logical explanation of things, as if Jesus himself were merely a philosopher. Christianity came into the world to demand a passionate response from each individual."
At the end of the day, all we really have to worry about is our individual, subjective response to Christ, although it is still helpful to discuss these types of issues.

Errrm, Kiekegaard's a dangerous figure--you mustn't believe his philosophy wholesale; he believed that reason played absolutely no part in our faith, calling for a "leap of faith" into the unknown.

Which ultimately makes *everything* relative; Buddhism becomes just as good as Christianity!

Charn_Tim

03-28-2006, 05:32 PM

Errrm, Kiekegaard's a dangerous figure--you mustn't believe his philosophy wholesale; he believed that reason played absolutely no part in our faith, calling for a "leap of faith" into the unknown.

Which ultimately makes *everything* relative; Buddhism becomes just as good as Christianity!
Have you read any of his works? How about Fear and Trembling? How about Either/Or? Because it is absolutely NOT the case that he believed reason played no part in our faith, and that is abundantly clear to anyone who has read or studied his works. He believed that logic and reason can take you very far and to the edge of true religion/Christianity, but to live the life that Jesus calls us to live, we must have faith to take the final step. Otherwise, Christianity is a philosophy and not a faith, like he says.

By the way, inkspot, what kind of comment was that about him being a "cutie pie" :) A little jealous of Regine Olson, are we? :rolleyes:

unleavened

03-28-2006, 11:17 PM

There is no doubt God does all the saving, and in no way could we save ourselves. I totally agree with this. There is nothing I can do to save me.

At the same time ... The Bible is full of admonishments for us to choose God. If that were in fact an impossibility, I do not think the Bible would encourage me to do it.

So I agree with Charn Tim and Soren Kierhegaard (a Danish cutie pie): Jesus came teaching a logical abusirdity, not a new rational philosophy, and our only option is to accept that while it is impossible, it is also true: He wholly saves us, we do nothing to earn it, and yet we must embrace salvation on our own ...
I agree. God has the power to pre-determine who will choose Him. Sounds impossible, but since there are references to both free will and predestination in scriputure, we have to believe both.
Truely, we cannot choose God for ourselves. We are not compelled to go to God on our own. However, don't forget the work of the Holy Spirit. He compels us to search and leads us to God and enables us to decide for God.

PrinceOfTheWest

03-29-2006, 11:25 AM

One important thing to remember in the discussion: the question is not between "God has all the power" and "God has pretty much all the power, but we men have a little bit." We men have been given some power of choice, but beside the immense power of the infinite, omnipotent God, it is much less than the power of a gnat being smashed by a speeding semi truck.

No, the question is between what we know (because God has told us) about God's power and what we know (because God has told us) about God's justice. We know that God is all-sovereign, and that He has not sacrificed a shred of sovereignity just because He has created beings with free will. But we also know that He is all-just - in fact, He is the wellspring of justice, and all that we know of justice springs from Him. However meticulous we may be about justice, it is only in pale imitation of God's justice, for He is much more just than we can hope to be. Furthermore, He is even more than just - He is loving. (e.g. A just man will distribute a limited number of loaves to a hungry crowd with careful dispassion - everyone gets what they deserve. A loving man will give up his own loaves to benefit an especially hungry family.)

So this is the tension point: how can God (sovereignly) control all things, and yet (justly) condemn men for their choices? If even I, with my pale and faulty understanding of justice, can recognize that to train a dog to bite and then execute him for biting is unjust, how much moreso would God recognize the injustice of damning men for what they had no choice in doing?

There are those who contend (as unleavened did in this (http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showpost.php?p=265459&postcount=202) post) that based on passages like Romans 9, the standards for justice for God differ than those for men, since He holds all the power and we do not*. In essence, this contends that because God has all the power, He can do whatever He wants and nobody can call it just or unjust. ("I'm God, you're not, so no backchat.")

This was the argument of William of Ockham (or Occam), who was a Franciscan theologian in the 1200s who ended up excommunicated from the Church. Like most heretics, he went astray by emphasizing one of God's attributes at the expense of the others. In William's case, it was God's omnipotence. William argued that since God was all-powerful, He could do whatever He liked and none could argue with Him. He contended that any restriction at all (even one God put on Himself) represented a denial of God's omnipotence, and therefore could not be admitted. The Church, drawing on the Scriptures and over a millenium of sound teaching, answered that no, God's exercise of power was consonant with His character: His exercise of power was informed by His intellect (He knows what is best for us), His charity, His holiness, and His justice. Unfortunately, Occamist thinking took deep root, particularly in northern Europe, and transformed many people's view of God from a benevolent Father to a terrible, judgemental ogre who was arbitrary and capricious in His exercise of power. Sadly, the root of much modern thinking, including our view of Law, Authority, Obedience, and God Himself can be traced to the error of Ockham.

But the Church denounced Occamism, by confirming that God has not only revealed to us His power, but His justice and His mercy as well. These do not represent restrictions on God's power, but rather the fulfillment of them. Just because we can't comprehend how God is able to act without violating His own nature ("Look, it's got to be either justice or mercy. Which is it?") doesn't mean He can't - it just means that sometimes the resolution escapes our narrow human minds.

This is why my tradition (Roman Catholicism) teaches that the Predestination/Free Will "conflict" only finds its resolution in mystery - in fact, the mystery of free will itself. We know both truths to be true because God has told us. We cannot understand their resolution in our current time-bound and sin-damaged intellects. As many have pointed out in this thread, the resolution is to trust God's love and obey His commands. The Truth will indeed set us free.

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*If one steps back from one or two-verse prooftexting from Romans and reads the entire work, it is clear what St. Paul is doing. Judaizing teachers were arguing that the Gospel was invalid because if God were to offer salvation to the Gentiles as St. Paul was claiming, it would invalidate God's promises to Israel as His chosen people. St. Paul pays them back in thier own coin by arguing from their own Scripture that the election of Israel was never intended to be an exclusive lock on God's mercy, but rather the avenue by which God would show mercy to all the nations. But we don't have time to unpack that now.

inkspot

03-29-2006, 12:50 PM

By the way, inkspot, what kind of comment was that about him being a "cutie pie"

He was adorable and would not have had near so gloomy a philosophy if his sweetheart had not jilted him when he was so young ...

Charn_Tim

03-29-2006, 01:45 PM

He was adorable and would not have had near so gloomy a philosophy if his sweetheart had not jilted him when he was so young ...
Looks like a hottie to me. Does this make you a Kierkegaardnite ink? :p

(BTW, from what I've studied, he broke off the relationship with Regine, because of his youth, being emotionally and psychologically traumatized by his father. He knew he would have treated Regine the same way, so for her sake, he sacrificially broke off their relationship).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In order to make this message not complete spam: :)

Thanks, POTW for your insights concerning the Justice of God. That's where I'm often brought back to if I start thinking about it too much...It's just difficult for me to understand the interplay between our "free will" (whatever that means), God's sovereignty, Justice, and His goodness without contradiction. I guess that's where faith comes in for me-admitting that it is a paradox that will not be understood in this life.

P.S. on a side note, has anyone read The Freedom of the Will by Jonathan Edwards? I am told that it is great (and relevant for this discussion) and I'm thinking about reading it (although my comprehension ability will surely be tested ).

EveningStar

03-29-2006, 02:35 PM

For PrinceOfTheWest who brought up William of Occam....

I agree with you, first off, so don't scratch your head TOO hard trying to peg what I'm about to say.

We have run into the limits of human language and logic in this thread. According to a strict interpretation of Occam, God cannot make an unbreakable law or speak an eternal truth because his whims are the only standard in the universe. Even two plus two is only four when he's in the mood. In human language that would say he is without bounds on what he can do because he is INCAPABLE of putting bounds on his OMNIPOTENCE despite himself, a logical impossibility if omnipotence means there is nothing one can't do. That indicates something fatally flawed about the whole arguement that makes its resolution by logic impossible. Why even bother trying to discuss Occam logically?

Let's put it this way. There are certain "things" that are not "things" in the mind of God. Like the sound of one hand clapping or the smell of the color green. To say that God could create anything is true if you accept God's definition of "things". God possesses all the qualities that make up perfection and can carry out all the necessary functions to create and maintain perfect systems. If he tried to determine the smell of green or describe the sound of one hand clapping it would represent a lapse of his perfect sanity and indicate imperfection and error. It would indicate he was trying to form an imperfect system. Occam would think that God could simply assign a smell to green or a sound to one hand clapping. But God couldn't even work a ninth grader's proof of geometry problems if he didn't agree that only one line can pass between two points. "But if I wanted them to, I could force a billion of them to!" God just made his first "F".

Or we could just throw Occam out the back door and have lunch. Yeah, let's do that. Otherwise we'd have to rename Moses' tablets "The Ten Suggestions." ;)

PrinceOfTheWest

03-29-2006, 02:40 PM

Well said, Magister! Like a true Lewisian, you've put your finger right on the weakness of Occam's point! It was a non-issue for Lewis, who followed in the classical tradition. Of course God could do anything that was not of itself contradictory - like the smell of the color green, or (as a more germane example to the modern mind) force somebody into heaven who didn't want to be there.

Incidentally, this is the heart of the problem that so many people have with "Susan's fate". There's this stubborn idea out there that Susan didn't make it to Narnia because Aslan was "punishing" her (again, notice the idea of the Big Mean Arbitrary Rulemaker who says "my way - no highway option."). Nothing could be further from the truth. Lewis was no Occamist - Susan got precisely and exactly what she chose.

inkspot

03-29-2006, 03:52 PM

he broke off the relationship with Regine, because of his youth, being emotionally and psychologically traumatized by his father. He knew he would have treated Regine the same way, so for her sake, he sacrificially broke off their relationship
I know, but she should have stood by her man. When a fey philospher breaks up with you, you don't just buzz off -- you refuse to leave and accept that you've been broken up with. He would have come around. She could have made him happy and productive! Instead of gloomy and philsophical. Poor, poor Soren.

Okay ... It's making my headache to try to get God to do something He logically cannot do, so let's stop it.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Lewis was no Occamist - Susan got precisely and exactly what she chose.
This is exactly right .. . It's like Aslan told Diggory toward the end of HHB, "This is what happens to those who pluck and eat fruits at the wrong time and in the wrong way. The fruit is good, but they loathe it ever after. All get what they want; they do not always like it."

We get what we want when we reject God: a life without him breathing down our neck and asking us to behave better than we particularly feel like behaving. He keeps his word and gives us that, if that is what we want ... but whether we will like it when we have it is another question.

chuam8919

03-30-2006, 12:27 AM

First of all, I'm sorry if I made Predestination sound like Fatalism, this was not my intent.

Euphrates, for the scripture I referenced let me explain:
(1). Romans 1:18ff., says that God "gave them over to the lusts of their heart, etc.," My point was that these men did not have "free will" but instead God made them do evil and wicked deeds because they abandoned Him and His word.

(2). Malachi 1:2-3, says that God loved Jacob but Hated Esau, this verse was to show that God "predestines" to hate some but love others, although the verse by itself does not fully implicate that point. However, thanks to Cappy for giving us the verse in Romans 11-23, which expands on my point saying that God had determined who would serve the other from before the time they were born.

Now, if God knows exactly what we will do, then we don't really have free will, because from before the creation of the world, He knew exactly what would happen to us. If God knew what would happen, then we would do just what He knew we would do. Furthermore, if God knew what would happen, then it has been "predestined" for that to happen. If something else happens, then God would be wrong and therefore, He is no longer an All-Powerful Being. (Am I the only one with a major head-ache?)

You say that this does not impact our free will, but I think it does. If everything that we wil ever do has been known by God from all eternity, then we have no choice but to do what God has determined. If you stop reading this post (for which I wouldn't blaim you;)) God has known that you would stop reading. If you continue, God has known you would. Any choice that you make has been seen and determined by God.

Also, the doctrine of Predestination is one that was derived from scripture, and not philosophy. I believe that you must use scripture to prove your point about free will rather than ignore my references.

In your point (1), that God gave them over to the lust of the flesh does not mean that He forced them to do it. When someone refuses your help, you eventually give up on them, leaving them to their devices. It is even so with this. When God leaves you to your own devices when you persistently reject His help, that is what it leads to: giving in to the lusts of the flesh. That's what those texts mean.

With (2), you have to trace back to why God cursed Esau. It was because he killed his brother who was righteous, obeying God's command. God does not need to force a person into evil because the person did evil. All He needs to do is take away His blessings, leaving that person to do what he can for himself. That is what it leads to. Without God to guide a person's workings, he can and eventually will have problems heaping on him.

Romans 11:23 does not mean that God already chose who will be lost or saved at the end. The famous John 3:16 said that anyone who believed in Him would not perish. That is the person's choice to accept that gift. God wanted to save everyone. "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." [2 Peter 3:9]

In one of the earlier posts, it was said that because God sees the future, everything is predestined. Not so. Take for example, a helicopter surveying a tunnel with many twists and turns. The helicopter can see what is at the end of a tunnel: a landslide that caused the exit to be covered. But then comes along a car that is completely oblivious to the block. The helicopter was not instrumental in bringing about the block, but it still saw what would become of the car's long trip. That is how it is when God sees what will happen. He does His best to make sure it doesn't happen that way, but He can still see that it will still end up that way. If He completely changes how it occurs and the person is saved from experiencing the tragedy, then the person really has no say in the matter. He ends up being forced to be saved by God.

EveningStar

03-30-2006, 08:18 AM

There can be no logical basis for consistent predestination. So why are there some Bible verses that sound like predestination was the intent and others that indicate free will? Because God is our parent. And a parent is adamant that the kids will do their homework, but not about whether they choose chocolate or vanilla ice cream at Dairy Queen.

We are children of God made in his image. Children imitate their parents. We were asked to do this, to be more like Jesus. Exercising some free will, choosing goodness and mercy, these are ways we imitate the Father.

Predestination is put forward by serious supporters as a sign of God's mercy. That he forces salvation on some even against their will. Yet God gave us hearts of love and sent us into the world to love one another. Predestination as a form of mercy would only work if people were only interested in their own salvation. Yes, if we were seedlings in a nursery and God only wanted to plant the best 20 percent of the stock. But seedlings don't care if the other plants live or die. I most certainly do care if my mother lives or dies, and if she spends eternity in hell because God didn't think she would be worthwhile, would it have a bearing on how I feel about God? Uh...YES IT WOULD.

It is ludicrous that God would allow human beings to multiply like rabbits with the idea he would find a few that stood out and were worth keeping. If he were such a control freak, he'd let a few specially designed yes men come into being and then snatch them directly into eternity to say "Hosanna" forever so his entrance into the room would have that certain Hollywood quality of splendor.

chuam8919

03-30-2006, 05:50 PM

Predestination is not what God does. God does have plans of His own. Does things always go His way? Far from it. When He sends His people to commute His love to others, it is so that He can show to them His care for them. When He does that, He provides as much He can to the person who refuses His love. However, they can still harden their hearts against this.

To help illustrate this, look back at the promises He made to King David, Hezekiah, etc.. With King David, God made a covenant with him that his descendants shall forever rule Israel if his descendants remain faithful to Him. God's intention was that David's lineage would rule Israel until the end of nations. However, it did not work out as God intended. David's lineage had only a few who were faithful to God. God kept His covenant and made sure their lives were not turbulent as long as they were faithful. God cannot protect those who refuse His protection when they refuse Him.

unleavened

03-30-2006, 07:12 PM

chuam8919

03-30-2006, 07:31 PM

chuam, I'm afraid I either don't know what you mean or I completely disagree. What you are saying seems to say that God is not all powerful - that circumstances can get the better of Him.

If you were (in your earlier post) refering to my post about how God transends time, I'm not sure you got the point (though I'm not sure anyone did get my point on that one).

No, I know that God is all-powerful and that He is not restricted to time. What I'm saying is that God does not exercise His full power otherwise it would be an infringement on our privilege of free-choice in our lives. He restrains doing that because He's chronic for our sincere love and care. Would a person like a tape recorder to repeat "you're intelligent" to him other than hearing a person actually saying that with true sincerity? That is what holds God back. He doesn't want our worship to be forced otherwise it's not true worship.

Circumstances do not get the better of God if He doesn't want to. God does not force things. God did not expose us to sin by creating Satan. It was when our first parents disobeyed, which is the definition of sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. God made a law in the Garden that they could not eat the tree of good and evil. The reason why God put the tree there is the same reason why He created Lucifer knowing that he would turn to Satan. To give us a chance to prove to ourselves whether we are obedient to God or not.

Charn_Tim

03-30-2006, 07:46 PM

No, I know that God is all-powerful and that He is not restricted to time. What I'm saying is that God does not exercise His full power otherwise it would be an infringement on our privilege of free-choice in our lives. He restrains doing that because He's chronic for our sincere love and care. Would a person like a tape recorder to repeat "you're intelligent" to him other than hearing a person actually saying that with true sincerity? That is what holds God back. He doesn't want our worship to be forced otherwise it's not true worship.

Circumstances do not get the better of God if He doesn't want to. God does not force things. God did not expose us to sin by creating Satan. It was when our first parents disobeyed, which is the definition of sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. God made a law in the Garden that they could not eat the tree of good and evil. The reason why God put the tree there is the same reason why He created Lucifer knowing that he would turn to Satan. To give us a chance to prove to ourselves whether we are obedient to God or not.
So God never causally acts in space and time to change our actions/thoughts/feelings/emotions, etc? For example, what role does the Holy Spirit have in salvation? Or for example, did God play any part in hardening Pharoah's heart (in Exodus)?

chuam8919

03-30-2006, 08:10 PM

So God never causally acts in space and time to change our actions/thoughts/feelings/emotions, etc? For example, what role does the Holy Spirit have in salvation? Or for example, did God play any part in hardening Pharoah's heart (in Exodus)?

In real life, if a person sees a murder being committed and does not speak about it ever and the murderer goes free, would you say that it's the bystander's fault that justice is not meted out? The answer is, yes! The person could have spoken about it but he chose to remain silent so it is his fault.

That is what the Bible meant when it said that God hardened Pharoah's heart. God took responsibility for it when that happened. He did not harden that guy's heart by actually doing it, but He just needs is to withdraw the Holy Spirit from working on our hearts in order to make our conscience numb to sin. We are not made aware of our faults and sins by our own volition. God makes it known to us through the Holy Spirit. If He removes the Holy Spirit's convicting influence on our hearts, we become all alone in choosing our course of action without God prompting us which course to take. That is the Holy Spirit's role in our salvation. To make us aware of what course to take, right or wrong, and to bring our sins before us so that we are aware of it. Without that, it's like steering a ship without a map and compass. You can still make the decision on which direction to head, but you don't have the obvious directions a map and compass would give.

waterhogboy

03-31-2006, 11:06 AM

EveningStar

03-31-2006, 11:42 AM

One hand clapping does have a sound - silence, and green does have a smell - odourless!Your sense of humor has a smell too, but it's not odourless. :D

inkspot

03-31-2006, 12:16 PM

Your sense of humor has a smell too, but it's not odourless. :D
LOL! That was a good one, Chakal!
Uh-oh, this is spam as I have nothing to say which relates to the conversation. Oh, I know, I will say this to Unleavened:

I understood your point about God transcending time, so we cannot comprehend that although He can see all our endings, it is not the same as His having ordained all our endings -- for God, it is all happening at once in the ever present now. There's no pre-destination about Him, because nothing for him is before or after. Outside of time, it's always now.

Rhyanidd

03-31-2006, 12:35 PM

Ok, well I'm not really good at all this philosophical stuff but I've a few questions. (and I've not finished reading the thread....but)

I believe in Predestination AND Free Wil.

So to those who are saying we cant have Free Will why then does God:
1). Give me the choice to slap my sister or walk away?
2). Why'd He give me the choice to buy one book over another?
3). Why do I have the choice of Coffee or Tea every morning?

How come I debate with myself on those points if God has predestined them and I have no free will? what is the point?

1). well he knows that I have a quick temper so he knows I will probably slap her...that doesnt mean he wants me too!
3). God knows that I WILL choose Tea....because I was raised on it and its somewhat habbit...that doesnt mean that I cant pick the coffee!

Now #2....I think this one supports Predestination the best because the book I didnt buy was extremely wrong...and God knew that so He showed me which one to pick that wouldnt draw me away from him....

So if God has predestined everything and we have no free will then why isnt it clear which collEge I should go to?

Ok I may be extremely stupid and those may just prove that I am an idiot but...I wanted to put them up there

EveningStar

03-31-2006, 12:52 PM

I like your point Reep. I too said that LIMITED predestination is possible but not TOTAL.

There are certain events that are destined to happen. Such as when God decided to send Christ into the world. They happen because God makes sure they happen.

There are certain events that are NOT destined to happen. They either happen or not.

Let me put it this way. In medieval times it was believed that, for instance, water fell and steam rose because things had "belongingness" and sought to be where they were ordained to be in God's plan. They also believed that the spirit world and physical world had no links whatever and that our bodies only moved in response to our will because God ordained the acts--each and every one of them like a puppetmaster. Your mind reaches for the toothbrush. God moves the arm in response.

So if Jimmy is a control freak and loves to torture women before he rapes them and murders them, even though female victim number seven is screaming for God to help her, God's busy unzipping Jimmy's pants, holding the knife to her throat, and several other things I can't describe on a family friendly forum. Puh-LEEESE!

When are we going to stop thinking that God allows people to die just because he can? As my mother says, "If everyone was jumping off the roof, WOULD YOU?"

I call events that are predestined by God "Stepping Stones of History." I believe that certain things that happen, like a murderer leaving his wallet at the scene of a crime, are things God did deliberately to intervene. I guess you could call God making something happen "predestination." I prefer to call it "Intervention." And I don't think God intervenes to preclude salvation, only to promote it. And I take literally "Seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you," to mean that we can ask God for intervention on our behalf that, if we are serious about it, will lead us to salvation.

Rhyanidd

03-31-2006, 12:56 PM

I cant find it but there is in Genesis (I believe) a verse that says "God gave man free will" or maybe I am getting confused and mixing up what my SS teacher said one morning when we were talking about it...

chuam8919

03-31-2006, 05:21 PM

jonathanruiz209

03-31-2006, 07:56 PM

both...it depends, the bible clearly mentions both...

unleavened

04-01-2006, 01:43 AM

I understood your point about God transcending time, so we cannot comprehend that although He can see all our endings, it is not the same as His having ordained all our endings -- for God, it is all happening at once in the ever present now. There's no pre-destination about Him, because nothing for him is before or after. Outside of time, it's always now.
Thank you! Good to know my point was comprehensible to someone.

I think it might help a bit to look at this from a writer's standpoint (after all, is not God the author of the universe?). God wrote our circumstances and our personalities. So when we make choices we do so according to the "story" God has written around us. This is in a sense "pre"destination, no?

Just so you all know I wrote that as I was thinking. It's not a tried and true theory. I could be totally off base. Just let me know what you think. :)

thomascovanant

04-01-2006, 05:14 PM

Well this is an interesting thread, Really heavy topic. I tend to agree that Predestination and free will ( as mentioned a couple times before) Are not mutually exclusive. But part of a system that i really have a hard time wrapping my mind around. I thought up this word picture to help me out.
we cant consider this idea without realizing that we live in a world that has fallen to sin. because of this There are events that happen to us that are not Gods doing. So i see our lives almost as a giant movable Blueprint. We are still making all the choices. But because God exists outside of time, he sees it all. He sees all of our bad choices, the bad things that will happen to us , other peoples sin that will affect us, etc. Then he lays his own blue print on top of the other. That connects all the mistakes and effects that sin has had. To work for an eventual good in us individually. With the primary goal to grow us and make us more like christ in spite of our surrounding fallen world.
Its not perfect, perfect, eventually the word picture breaks down, but it is at least how i am able to begin to wrap my mind around such a complex concept.

chuam8919

04-01-2006, 05:16 PM

I think it might help a bit to look at this from a writer's standpoint (after all, is not God the author of the universe?). God wrote our circumstances and our personalities. So when we make choices we do so according to the "story" God has written around us. This is in a sense "pre"destination, no?
God did create the universe, but not our circumstances. It is still our choice to let ourselves be affected by it or not. God may see it happening beforehand, but it does not mean that He purposely put us in that position. Our personalities, if pre-decided by Him, should be molded genetically. However, we know through studies that it's only a tiny bit of genetics for pre-dispositions, and mostly molded by our exposure to the environment. Even then, once someone has been exposed to true Christianity and accepted Christ, people who have been molded to be hard-core criminals have been known to become loving to their fellow-men through that encounter with Christ.

Refer back to my illustration of the helicopter. :)

Gryphon

04-01-2006, 08:56 PM

okay, we have full choice, and God controls everything. okay, lemme repeat, WE HAVE FULL CHOICE AND GOD CONTROLS EVERYTHING! The thing is, you just need someone as big as God to do both of them. :D

chuam8919

04-01-2006, 09:04 PM

okay, we have full choice, and God controls everything. okay, lemme repeat, WE HAVE FULL CHOICE AND GOD CONTROLS EVERYTHING! The thing is, you just need someone as big as God to do both of them. :D
Oh great sweetness is in the air! (not very poetic I know)
Such a great summary! That's it! Yay!

Charn_Tim

04-04-2006, 03:43 PM

Our personalities, if pre-decided by Him, should be molded genetically. However, we know through studies that it's only a tiny bit of genetics for pre-dispositions, and mostly molded by our exposure to the environment.
Not to sound rude or arrogant, but this is actually not true. It is not clear at all as a general rule what role genetics and the environment plays in shaping personality. Some studies have shown a huge correlation between genetics and personality, and others have shown not as much. In fact, like most trends in the biological and life sciences, there probably is no hard and fast rule but rather it varies greatly from person to person.

unleavened, I like your point about God transcending time a lot. I think of God as "extra-dimensional" as in having more than just this 1/2 dimension of time that we humans do, although it will never be clear to us in this life what this fully entails. However, I believe the Bible teaches a stronger case for God's role in his creation than merely "foreknowledge" of our decisions. So if you're saying, as inkspot has re-iterated:

although He can see all our endings, it is not the same as His having ordained all our endings
I'm not sure I agree with this. I believe the Bible does actually teach that in some sense, God does ordain all our endings and(!) we have a free will to choose them. This is the paradox we keep coming back to, I think.

I just wanted to throw this one out and see if anyone wants to talk about this. I was taught in a philosophy class or some philosophy book that I read somewhere that we as humans always do what we want to do. That is, each action that we choose to do is what we want to do at the time. Just when you think that you can get around this by saying, "Not so. I just slapped myself in the head on purpose and it hurt. I did that against my own wanting to do so, but I chose to do it anyway." But that is not true. At that point, you wanted to try to prove disprove the theory more so than you wanted to not feel pain, and the fact is, we always do what we want to do at the time.

I think this perhaps helps me understand how God can affect our actions and choices without interfering with our free will. Since what we want is all about perception, can't God in some sense change how we perceive things, and thus "cause" us to make certain choices without affecting our free will? Does this make sense to anyone? Because I'm not really sure what to make of it; just a thought.

inkspot

04-04-2006, 03:49 PM

I think this perhaps helps me understand how God can affect our actions and choices without interfering with our free will. Since what we want is all about perception, can't God in some sense change how we perceive things, and thus "cause" us to make certain choices without affecting our free will?
Can this relate in any way to the beginning of Mere Christianity where Jack talks about the difference between a herd instinct and a conscience in humans? Something compels a strong man to go back and rescue a weaker one, or a child, even at risk to his own life, even though he may not even like the other person, which does not, in animals, compel them to sacrifice themselves for the weaker one.

In a way, a person of conscience drives himself to do what is right, even when it is painful to him, because he wants to obey the dictates of his conscience ... so, God could give us (has given us!) the drive to do right, to make the doing of right more important to us even than personal comfort, if we will give in to this drive.

In the same way, is there a drive to turn to Christ? Could this be how He gives us free will to choose Christ or no, to do right or not, but at the same time gives us an extra nudge to choose right, to choose Christ ...

unleavened

04-06-2006, 02:02 AM

God did create the universe, but not our circumstances. It is still our choice to let ourselves be affected by it or not. God may see it happening beforehand, but it does not mean that He purposely put us in that position...Refer back to my illustration of the helicopter. :)
I believe this is where I must respectfully disagree with you. I conluded from my reading of scripture that God has much more control than you give me the impression you believe He has. But since we both serve the same Lord, we can agree to disagree and on occasion discuss our differences.
okay, we have full choice, and God controls everything. okay, lemme repeat, WE HAVE FULL CHOICE AND GOD CONTROLS EVERYTHING! The thing is, you just need someone as big as God to do both of them.
Too true. Very good summery. However, though I accept this, take a guilty pleasure in examining the finer points of the discussion.

I want to elaborate a (very) little on my previous post about God transending time.
Since God sees time as a whole and the human mind cannot understand this transending of time and if this concept plays a role in the discussion of predestination/free will, then that would explain better why we cannot understand the concept of predestination and free will as a paradox. (Did that make sense?)
Secondly, God sees time as a whole - from begining to end as one event so to speak - everything happening simotaniously (sp?). I've said this before, but I'll go on. If this is true then it does not make sense to say anything is left undecided. Not even the smallest detail or choice is unknown. No alternate reality exists for if we make a different choice. All has been decided. And yet the choices that we do make (though determined as we speak) are CHOICES - a result of free will.
Again I am just typing as I think. I know this seems to compilcate things rather than resolve them. The truth is that in the end we will not know all the answers. In the end it all depends of faith.

TimmyofOz

04-06-2006, 02:25 AM

God predestined your free will. :D

unleavened

04-06-2006, 06:52 PM

yeah...something like that. My brain hurts. Like I said. In the end it takes faith, b/c God is bigger than our thoughts.

Narnian1

04-11-2006, 11:32 AM

First of all I haven’t read many of the previous entries so if I repeat what they have said then I agree with them, obviously. Second of all when I am quoting the Bible when it is all bold that means the writer (Paul) is quoting the old testament. SO when looking at unconditional election vs. free will we must consider all Scriptures.
Romans 3:1010 “as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
This states that there are NONE who seeks God. No one seeks God. All have turned away from God and no one is good or righteous.
Romans 9: “for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory.”
These verses are not the only ones that straight up say that God chose us before the foundation of the world to be in Him through Christ. I don’t know how else you could explain these verses. God chose to love Jacob but to hate Esau before they were born or had done right or wrong. It wasn’t based on anything they did or would do but just on the fact that it is what God wanted to do. He will have mercy on whom He has mercy. What does this mean? He will have mercy on whomever He wants. Can God not make vessels of wrath prepared for destruction just as He made vessels of mercy (believers in Christ) prepared for glory? If everyone was chosen God would not be glorified as much as possible. This may sound harsh but God is not just a God of love He is a powerful God of wrath as well. We are not God so we do not understand how He works we must simply rest in the fact that He is sovereign over all things and we must share His gospel with the world and rest in Him to save those whom He predestined.

EveningStar

04-11-2006, 11:44 AM

we must share His gospel with the world and rest in Him to save those whom He predestined.If we're all just puppets, why bother? He'll save them anyway. I'll just sleep late and go fishing. :rolleyes:

Don't tell me I shouldn't put it that way. It won't affect my salvation one way or the other so I might as well say it. :rolleyes:

It's not that simple. It is God's responsibility we are born with this defect of absolute depravity because if absolute depravity was always and utterly fatal he should have killed off all mankind and started over when there were just a couple of us. By letting Adam and Eve have kids that would rot in Hell when they died would have been grossly and utterly cruel and irresponsible. If we poor foolish humans can be responsible pet owners and spay and neuter to prevent unwanted births from going to the gas chamber, why not God?

But Adam and Eve did have kids. And God is good. So something must be wrong here. Oh, yes, it must be the utter and unquestioning use of absolute predestination...I knew it was something. ;)

inkspot

04-11-2006, 01:28 PM

But Adam and Eve did have kids. And God is good. So something must be wrong here. Oh, yes, it must be the utter and unquestioning use of absolute predestination...I knew it was something.

LOL! That's right, Chakal. It's a mystery! People should not be so determined to believe in predestination they make God out to be so heartless.

jasper77

04-11-2006, 01:39 PM

I haven't made a comment in a while. I've been pouring over scripture to try to find definite answers one way or the other to this subject.
Just when I think I've found scripture to support one side I find another scripture to support the other side.
In all my searching and debating with fellow Christians I have found that most who believe in absolute predestination will not consider any scripture that seems to lean the other way no matter what it says.
The ones that believe that God gave us a free will to choose will usually consider what is brought before them.
Isn't it funny how some subjects we agree to say this is a mystery of God and is to incomprehensible for our minds to conceive. Like when God says that He is from everlasting to everlasting. This is inconceivable to us, but we agree we don't know how this is possible, yet we know it is true.
What I am getting at is that the scriptures seem to support both views.Why can't this be one of those areas where we say although we can't understand it that both views are a possibility because God is God and we are not.
My stance is neutral until the scripture, if ever, reveals absolutness to either view.
This I do know. Anyone who has received the gift of salvation is not in danger of hellfire for believing one way or the other, because God knows our hearts.