Wicca/Paganism

[Siren]

I created this thread not to scream "Wicca is good! Be one of us!" Frankly, I don't care if you are Christian, athiest, Polish, or have really hairy feet.

I see a lot of misconceptions on Wicca and just wanted to post some reading material. And I want others to know, I sit down and I read other religions' material all the time. I am a sponge. I soak up knowledge and never squeeze it out. I love to learn. Be it about the world or the people within it. And that includes stepping outside my circle and keeping in time with other religions to know how they operate, simply because I am curious and I like to help people. I have been a counselor to teens, be it about school, friends, family, abuse, runaways, or spiritual. I never would bring my own beliefs into it, however, I would actually try to spiritual match people. People like to have a sense of belonging. I understand that. A majority of the kids I matched with religions, I had matched them to Christianity. I have no problem with it outside the fact that many Christians sit down and read a few Christian pamphlets and listen to a few sermons and then look at the world through that person's eyes and heart rather then their own. Rather then look outside the box, take the time, and learn on their own, they follow others like sheep. And this isn't good, for anyone. Of any religion. No one has a right to say, "you believe this because I told you to, thus its right."
It is healthy to read and research yourself. That doesn't mean you go out and buy $100 worth of books at Barnes and Noble, but it doesn't hurt to do a free Google search online to hear the OTHER side of the story.

I can't change people's minds that feel Wicca is a form of Satanic worship. However, when I ask these same people, 'Where did you hear that from?'...I get "My mom/dad/pastor/priest/youth leader/friend/cousin/etc". Another place they get it from is the Bible. I think the Bible is a wonderful book with good lessons and I do believe much of what is in there DID happen. Including Jesus. I believe he was a real person, yes. And I am Wicca, yes. However, the Bible says a lot of things that no longer account for in todays world. For instance, there are passages that say you can sell your daughter when she comes of age. So do we still believe you can do that? Times change and so has Christianity. And I think its time for Christianity to change its view that "If its not Christian, its devil worship."
I thought Satan was someone to fear, not to be used as propaganda like a bogeyman to scare people away from other religions. Christianity is a good religion. It doesn't need to scare people away from other religions because it is so good. It wasn't good for me. It didn't fit my beliefs. It's a good religion as in many good people are Christians. So why does the church smear other religions, like mine? It just hurts me sometimes. I have a lot of Christian friends, and yes, they know my beliefs. Most aren't happy, however, they are still my friends and we respect eachother.
I just hope Christianity and Christians can stop the smear campaign. There's no need for it. And it doesn't suit the Christian religion. If there is a Satan, I am sure he is very happy to see people spread lies and hate about other religions. And I would think the Christian God would be displeased about it. I'm not Christian, but I believe in the ethic of not judging my neighbor. I have Wiccan, Christian, athiest, Muslim, and Jewish friends. We all get along because we live by that same ethic. We don't push our religions on eachother because religion isn't a club. Its not a competition to see who can get the most members the fastest. And to see who can make other religion look bad.
Wicca is not devil worship. Never was. Wicca is an ancient religion. Created before Christianity...thus, before Satan and the devil. Wiccans do not sacrifice animals or children.

So why all the hate for Wicca? Look back in history. To right before the witch trials. Women who practiced herbal medicine or were midwives were seen as a threat. To the church and the doctors. Why? Only men could heal back then...According to the chuch and the doctors. Only male doctors with their medicines could heal the wounded. And only the male church leaders could cure the ill. But when women. Simply housewives and especially single women (and single mothers) started to help people using herbs and plants from the woods, they were labeled witches. Most of these women weren't even practioners of witchcraft and Wicca. Just simple women helping the poor...the poor who could not afford doctors. And because they overstepped their boundaries, they were labeled witches. And then when you turned in a witch, you got their land as a prize. So if your neighbor wanted your parcel of land, they would say you were a witch and you would be tried, found guilty (always) and killed.
So how was the evidence gathered and the confessions made...They would torture people till they confessed. Most people on the rack would confess to being a purple spotted rat if that's what was asked of them. Or the other form was "dunking the witch". A person would be tied up and put in a bag and dropped into a river or lake. If the person floated, they would be accused of using magic to float and would be killed. If they sunk (thus drowned), they would be deemed innocent...and legally dead.
Before the witch trials, witchcraft was known, but pretty much ignored. Thought to be idiocy and silly women games. After the witch trials, the church, the media, and the majority of the people never changed their minds from then on. The church had countless books written on witchcraft, how to find a witch, how to kill a witch, and why witchcraft was bad. All because a few women in a few villages wanted to help the sick.
FYI....Just 2 years ago, all the so called witches of Salem who died horrible deaths, were pardoned of all crimes.

Wicca isn't bad. But the hate that people give it is. Its not healthy, for either side. People fear what they do not understand. Understand it, and the fear is gone.
So before you go and judge my religion...judge me.

[Jood]

However, the Bible says a lot of things that no longer account for in todays world. For instance, there are passages that say you can sell your daughter when she comes of age. So do we still believe you can do that? Times change and so has Christianity. And I think its time for Christianity to change its view that "If its not Christian, its devil worship."
I thought Satan was someone to fear, not to be used as propaganda like a bogeyman to scare people away from other religions. Christianity is a good religion. It doesn't need to scare people away from other religions because it is so good. It wasn't good for me. It didn't fit my beliefs. It's a good religion as in many good people are Christians. So why does the church smear other religions, like mine? It just hurts me sometimes. I have a lot of Christian friends, and yes, they know my beliefs. Most aren't happy, however, they are still my friends and we respect eachother.
So before you go and judge my religion...judge me.
First off, I think you got the wrong idea from the Old Testament.
WE DO NOT SELL OUR DUAGHTERS!!!
Okay sure there was a Bride Price, the price a man payed when he wanted to marry a girl. He had to pay the Father a couple thousand dollars.
So we don't sell our daughters to some freak dude.
And second, it's not our job to Judge people.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

I read a fascinating book (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=1890626201&itm=1) on Wicca once. Taught me a lot.

[Parthian King]

Back from travels. Quick note here, although I have unofficially bowed out. I know that this is a forum, and the code is pluralism and openness and all that. My comment should hardly be construed as personal animosity; since I don't know the poster who originated this thread, how could it be?

C.S. Lewis, in multiple writings, identifies witchcraft and magic in its various forms as a tool and device of the dark Enemy of our souls. Lewis is 100% in accord with the Scriptures in this regard. Witchcraft is dangerous and will lead to a harvest of spiritual death and destruction for those who practice it. The warnings in Scripture are given for our well-being, and they are ignored to our peril. As far as Christian thought (and Jewish, and Muslim, for that matter) there is nothing to be discussed when it comes to such things. It should be avoided at all costs.

[Siren]

Fender> You took that too personal. And yes, that is still selling your daughter. It was a practice done once. No longer. Just as there are ancient practices in EVERY religion that are done no longer.

PrinceoftheWest>Ever read a non-anti-Wiccan book? That isn't researching. That isn't reading the other sides point of view. If I said I read an anti-Christian book and said that all the info in it was true and right, would you feel I did my part in research of your religion? I read the Bible, many times. And I've read pro-Christian books. I certainly feel Christianity is a great religion. Just not the one for me. Do you think that I have given a fair statement?

[langtab]

Bride Price isnt selling your daughter... Bride price is an exchange of money for the value of the daughter in traditional farming communities. In most cases families would rely on the daughter to do chores and other things on the farm. Therefore it was up to the grooms family to pay (sometimesi n labour or other ways other than money) for her lose on the farm. Bride Price is practiced to this day in many countries and isnt a form of sale, it is compensation to the family of the bride for her lose.

[Siren]

This is what I am refering to...

Exodus 21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

"maidservent" not "bride".
So can I sell my daughter as a maidservent? This is what I mean. There are practices in the Bible that are no longer practiced due to moral reforms and laws.

[langtab]

Wow...A) you refernced a line of the bible that has been translated from one language to another. B) Who really cares.

[Siren]

So now that I made my point clear, you suddenly don't care? You cared before when you tried to prove me wrong. And when that failed, suddenly you don't care?

I started this discussion to say my peace and answer any questions and concerns. Not to nitpick the Bible. But you brought me to it. Don't look at me like I'm the enemy here or act like you don't care, when you clearly do.

BTW, I got that particular quote here: http://www.godrules.net/library/kjv/kjvexo21.htm Just as a reference that I'm not making this up.

[langtab]

First off, you didnt prove me wrong... You pointed me to a bad quote of the bible. You were talking about Bride Price, not slavery (the quote you quoted).

[Siren]

And I never said I proved you wrong. I said you couldn't prove me wrong and then gave up with the excuse "i don't care.". Quote me where I said "bride price". I said "selling your daughter". Big difference. I never said selling your daughter into slavery or marriage. Just "selling your daughter". **I** never brought up "bride price". Re-read the thread, please.

[Pretty~Ruth]

Wicca, what is Wicca?

[Siren]

Wicca, what is Wicca?

Wicca is the practice of witchcraft and is a nature based religion. Wiccans believe there is a God and Goddess. It is in the belief that all people and creatures go to Summerland (Wiccan version of Heaven), and there is no Satan or Hell.

[NarniaFanatic]

Well, what was said in the Old Testament was mainly about Jewish law and had other things in it that aren't practiced here today. We Christians mainly go by the New Testament, as the Old Testament is filled with just stories and Jewish law, etc. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the OT should be skipped over, just not as thoroughly looked into as the New Testament. Catch my drift? :confused: I just don't want any more arguments to occur here.

[Siren]

Completely catch your drift NarniaFanatic and agree :)

[NarniaFanatic]

Completely catch your drift NarniaFanatic and agree :)
My name's Amanda or Mandy. Nice to meet you. :)
I think you made some very interesting points on the whole judgemental topic.
I mean, no church is perfect and all of the have their faults. I've been to a lot in the past and had to switch around because they were all so snobby and way too judgemental. But that shouldn't stop you from going to church. Just ignore them, that's what I do. :)

[Twilightdryadhobbit]

Siren, I'm a bit confused by your first post. You're trying to say that Wicca isn't bad now, but all the points you brought up were from people being persecuted for not doing witchcraft, or, apparently, anything related to Wicca. I'm not sure how that helps your argument, I think it sort of confuses the issue by bringing up people that we acknowledged years ago were probably not witches. I suppose it's nice to know about the women who knew about herbs, but I don't see how it relates to the issue at hand. Feeling bad for them shouldn't change your opinion of wicca, since they weren't related to them.

Also, I really can't agree that we should throw out most of the Old Testament. And even if you did rely on the new testament, it says there: (2nd Timothy 3:16) "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.," I think that would apply to the Old Testament as well. A lot of the confusing rules in the Old Testament were part of the Old Covenant, between us and God, the one that we couldn't keep, since we can't pay for our own sins. When Jesus came he created a New Covenant between Him and God, and since he is God, he can keep it, and pay for our sins. That means that the old sacrificing rules don't apply to us today obviously. Anyway, maybe that helps you think about what part's of the Old Testament we don't practice now.

Also, technically, Christianity, as I would think, the belief in the one true God, started before any religion since God created the earth. If you're counting Christianity as starting only when Christ came, it's not really accurate, since Jesus is God. If you're talking when it became an organized religion, with people starting churches, I guess that makes more sense. But God has always been there, and a relationship with him is what Christianity is, not the teaching of the Bible, though it will help you understand Him immensly, not the church, though they should help keep us focused on Him, an actual, living togetherness with a real, live, accessible God is what Christianity is.

Please don't think I'm trying to kill the discussion or anything, because I'm not. Discussion is helpful, and interesting, and it helps people decide what is actually true.

[Lawrence]

Also, I really can't agree that we should throw out most of the Old Testament. And even if you did rely on the new testament, it says there: (2nd Timothy 3:16) "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.," I think that would apply to the Old Testament as well.

Absolutely, positively correct. The idea that we can throw out the OT (or most of it) and groove solely on the NT is a heresy that has been around since the time of Marcion. You cannot understand who Jesus is/was without understanding the Jews and you cannot understand the Jews without reading the OT.

On another point, I would have thought that folks who are into Wicca would absolutely be into Jesus. He performed miracles/magic, had command over nature and animals (wind, sea, fig trees, colts) and to top it off came back from the dead. If you truly believed in magic, you would believe in the deep magic.

Pax,
L

[Siren]

My point as to why I talked about the witch trials was to say why all the hate started for witchcraft. And it was all for not. Since the witch trials weren't even prosecuting real witches. To this day, there is no evidence to state any of those people practiced witchcraft. Simply herbal medicine.

Also, I am not refering to the Bible's reference of timeline but rather the historical time line. Paganisim as a religion has roots before 25,000 BC. Paganisim is the belief in more then one god. Being Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Mayan, etc cultures all believed in multiple deities. But no religious debate was ever won on "which came first?" anyways. So is is a moot point of course.

[Siren]

On another point, I would have thought that folks who are into Wicca would absolutely be into Jesus. He performed miracles/magic, had command over nature and animals (wind, sea, fig trees, colts) and to top it off came back from the dead. If you truly believed in magic, you would believe in the deep magic.

Pax,
L

Excellent point. Its something I always felt. Magic can be miracles. And miracles can be magic. But I didn't want to be the one to say it first, in fear of offending others and starting some big fight.

Whenever a team of doctors say a baby isn't going to make it...and it does and they have no explaination for it....they call it "a miracle". And yes, it truely is. But for centuries, magic was used to explain unexplained events. Now we consider them miracles. But the two words can go hand in hand when we wish to explain unexplainable things.

[NarniaFanatic]

Oh, I was afraid of this...
Look, guys, I never said to throw most of the OT, but what I meant was that Christianity is based mainly on the Scripture of the New Testament. I never said that we should throw out the Old Testament all together. The OT has many inspiring verses in it and should not be overlooked, it's just that some of it just has the Jewish law and it goes into the little details like architecture and such.

[Saruman]

I believe Thedryadhobbit had it best with the verse of Scripture she quoted conccerning the Word. The Old Testament is critical to the Bible, because in it are all the prophesies and promises given to us. The New Testament is critical because it is the fulfillment of all these things. We understand that the law was a schoolmaster, given to lead us to Christ. There is absolutely no way any of us can keep the law. If we fail in one point, we fail all of it. The Good News (the Gospel) is that God Himself came to this earth as a Man, the Man Christ Jesus, suffered the death of the cross and, in His own power, rose from the dead three days later, that we might, in and through Jesus Christ, be saved from our sin and from the judgment that we deserve. There is no greater love than that.

In the end, the Old and New Testaments are extremely important. They are a tandem, and go hand-in-hand.

[Ephinie]

My point as to why I talked about the witch trials was to say why all the hate started for witchcraft. And it was all for not. Since the witch trials weren't even prosecuting real witches. To this day, there is no evidence to state any of those people practiced witchcraft. Simply herbal medicine.Witchcraft was condemned long before the witch trials of the middle ages and Refromation period. As early as Old Testament times, it was commanded that witches and those who practised sorcery were to be put to death. I don't think it is quite appropriate to call this, "Hate," though. From what I can tell of my own Scriptural knowledge, the Bible considers witchcraft to be communing with spirits or deliberately manipulating people. It is not surprising that God would command these people to be put to death, because back then, they didn't have the power of Christ to set them free from those influences. So having someone in the community who communed with spirits or who was deliberately manipulating people for whatever end could be potentially disastrous. Hence the command to get rid of them. It was not so much an issue of hate as it was done in the best interest of the whole community.

You are correct that those executed during that witch trial period to which you referred were not actually practising witchcraft; and I would venture to say that the majority of such cases resulted from greed (because people wanted their land), jealously (of their knowledge), fear (of the unknown), or just plain ignorance. I have no doubt that some of those responsible for putting these "witches" to death were, in their own minds, honestly trying to honor scripture; they just got it all horribly wrong. And by the same token, I have no doubt that some of those involved in spearheading the witch trial movement were not the least bit concerned with scripture or with doing the right thing. Then... there was everyone else who got caught up in it all.

Also, I am not refering to the Bible's reference of timeline but rather the historical time line. Paganisim as a religion has roots before 25,000 BC. Paganisim is the belief in more then one god. Being Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Mayan, etc cultures all believed in multiple deities. But no religious debate was ever won on "which came first?" anyways. So is is a moot point of course.I respect your opinion on this, but I truly feel it is simply a misrepresentation of the facts. If you define Paganism as a belief in more than one god, then you over simplify what that word means in our present, current culture. To say that Wicca, as a religion, has been around since before 25,000 B.C. is completely inaccurate. Yes, the Greeks, Egyptians, Mayans, Romans, et al. all DID have religous systems based on the belief in multiple deities, but each of them were also uniquely distinct from each other. They were not the same religion, just as present day Wicca is not the same religion as any of those. The term "Paganism" has been used in many different ways over the centuries, and only very recently has it been used to specifically label the Wiccan religion. So to say that Paganism has been around for centuries may be somewhat accurate, but what you are really talking about is, specifically, Wicca. And Wicca has not been around all that long. To say that Wicca resembles any of those given ancient religions would be along the same lines as saying that Christianty resembles Buddism. There may be similarities, but they are fundamentally different religions. Also, I think that it would be in your best interest to veer away from likening Wicca to most of those ancient religions, as most of them endorsed practises that would be considered barbaric in today's culture. The Mayans engaged in human sacrifice, for example. You made it very clear earlier that Wicca does not endorse human or animal sacrifice. All of those ancient religions you cited practised animal sacrifice, at the very least.

[Ephinie]

Siren, what I would be most interested in hearing about on this thread, if you care to take the time for it, would be some of the specific beliefs and practises held by Wiccans. You mentioned your Summerland belief before, as well as the lack of belief in Satan. Anything else you could tell regarding specific beliefs would be most appreciated.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Ever read a non-anti-Wiccan book? That isn't researching. That isn't reading the other sides point of view. If I said I read an anti-Christian book and said that all the info in it was true and right, would you feel I did my part in research of your religion? I read the Bible, many times. And I've read pro-Christian books. I certainly feel Christianity is a great religion. Just not the one for me. Do you think that I have given a fair statement?If by "anti-Wiccan" book you mean "one that is opposed to Wiccan practices", then you're not understanding the point of the book I linked (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=1890626201&itm=1) to. It has nothing to say about Wiccan practices - it is strictly a historical study of the roots of the Wiccan phenomena. It is written by a professor of history from the University of Prince Edward Island who was interested by the claims of Wicca to an ancient heritage. So he went searching, and found something interesting: Wicca is a very new invention. It was created by a couple of Englishmen who'd been strongly influenced by the occult side of the Romantic movement. They published some books in the early 1800s that essentially created the practice out of thin air. My copy is not near to hand, but when I retrieve it, I'll post his findings, because it's all public record: names, book titles, publication dates. They created this mythology out of whole cloth, and your initial post is a textbook example of it: the "ancient practices", secrets passed from mother to daughter, the repression by the patriarchy - the whole nine yards. Never heard of before the 1800s, and created out of the fertile imagination of a couple of English guys. They even created the "cover story" - that it was hidden knowledge because of oppression by the Church that was just coming to light, etc. Problem was, according to the script, it should have come to light in the rural, "pagan" ("pagan" is Latin for "country dweller") areas. Actually it sprang to life among the bored middle and upper class city dwellers who were looking for something to fill the imaginitive void left by the dusty intellectualism of The Enlightenment.

btw, your earlier post about selling daughters as maidservants - according to God's law, that was something more like what we'd call indentured servanthood (they also indentured their sons). A Hebrew slave was not allowed to be kept for more than seven years, after which they were freed during a Jubilee Year. The price was based on how many years of service the purchaser could expect. Certainly not to our tastes, but a step away from chattel slavery.

[inkspot]

This is quite interesting, and I am sure Siren and other Wiccans see nothing "scary" i the practice of their faith, no more than we Christians see anything spooky in ours. Let me say for young Christians however (with no insult intended to Siren or Wicca): Wicca is incompatible with Christianity.

Siren mentions a goddess -- but Christianity clearly holds there is only one true God, the trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is a clear divergence point from Christiniaty.

Further, from a Christian viewpoint, any manifestation of this goddess, since she is clearly not scriptural, would be to us a manifestation of the enemy, a demon. Her presence should not be courted by Christians, because you would be, according to out faith, inviting a demon to manifest for you and in you.

But this holds true for any other faith in contrast to Christianity; Christians should never seek the manifestation of any other god or spirit from any other faith, because, in the Christian view, this would be an invitation for a demon or evil spirit to get involved in your life. You cannot have Wicca and Jesus; you cannot have Hinduism and Jesus; you cannot have Buddha and Jesus; you cannot have Allah and Jesus ... Christianity simply does not work that way.

So please, even if Wicca sounds cool to you, do not get involved if you are a believer in Christ. By our beliefs, it would open the door for evil in your life.

This is not to disrespect Wicca at all, but we do have lots of young Narnia Fans, and I want it to be clear to any believers, Wicca is not compatible with Christianity. We of course respect all religions and their followers, but we cannot incorporate their anti-biblical views into our faith in any way.

[Namaste]

There are many points posted that I agree with here, I also must congratulate Siren for having the courage to step out on a limb and try to engage this board in a discussion about something that we, in general are ignorant of, myself included. For me, it is not only nice to read something that is not 'traditionalist Christian stuff' here, but to learn from someone within a faith about their faith.

It is far too easy for those outside of a belief system to judge, and to condemn those who are different then they are. It is also very easy for people to get their hands on skewed material about a belief system all the while trying to keep within a doctrine. That is, there are a lot of books out there that are Christian slants against Wiccanism. I've seen them, they exist just as cheap shots against Unity exist.

Incidentally, in Unity, we pray to 'Father / Mother God', that is we acknowledge the masculine and the feminine aspect of God. Unity does practice Christian principles, but in a New Thought interpretation and it is one that I feel more comfortable with than anything else.

Like with Wiccanism, I do know that there exists a great deal of intolerance within Christian circles about people who are different. Perhaps having someone here in this forum who practices this faith, we can learn something about it instead of living with misconceptions.

[EveningStar]

In other words, Inky, it would never become a denomination of Christianity. First Independent Church of Wicca, Reformed, Zion. :D

I heartily agree. They are vastly different religions.

What I think you missed, however, is the concept of "Godhead". I think just about everyone here misses the concept.

We Christians have a three personed God...at least the majority of us do. Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the three in one.

In Wicca the Lady and her Consort are, so to speak, a two personed God. Very much like...well...Mother Earth and Father Time. He grows old each year and is reborn in the spring. And while that is a very poetic explanation of the changing of the seasons to be sure, it neglects a little HUGE problem. Seems after all he just migrates south for the winter like the Geese do. Because the WORLD does not go into Winter, one half of it does and the other half has the same seasons in exact reverse order.

The original Wiccan beliefs could not survive such a harsh thing. No doubt they have been revised, much as conservative Christians no longer claim the Earth is the center of the solar system and that the sun and moon go around it.

That is something that I've always been curious about. How DO the Wiccans deal with that ancient legend that the Consort grows old, dies, and is reborn with the seasons now that you know the Earth is not flat and there's a whole hemisphere down south?

I hope nobody, including our Wiccan friends, thinks I'm being flippant or sarcastic. But hey, how DO you deal with it? I genuinely want to know.

[Sunrise]

Since Namaste brought up the word "intolerance", and Siren made some observations on the judgements of Christians toward other religions, I'd like to just point something out.

Christians are often accused of being intolerant, but I think we need to clearly delineate the difference between people who react out of ignorance and fear to things with which they are unfamiliar (intolerance), and people who insist on doctrinal purity (faithfulness).

You have to understand, guys, the Christian perspective on issues like these. Namely that, if Christianity is true, then all other religions are false. I don't make that statement; scripture does. Of course, we can't assume something to be true because of claims it makes about itself, because every religion does that. This argument delves into the reliability of the Bible and lots of other issues that don't belong here, but the point remains that for a Christian who believes scripture, all other options are off the table.

The idea that we should be accepting of the tenets of other faiths is called relativism, the belief that "whatever works for you is fine," and that there is no absolute truth. But what if there IS absolute truth? If there is, no amount of our insisting that there isn't will change the fact. If 2+2=4, we can argue until we turn blue that it can equal 12, or 3, or 587 if we want it to, but it doesn't change the pure, absolute truth that it equals four. By the same token, if the God of Christianity exists, than He exists regardless of human arguments about whether He does.

You can play devil's advocate and turn this the other way: the Christian belief in God does not make Him real, either. Granted. Again, if He's there, He's not the least bit affected by our belief or lack thereof. If He's not there, our belief in Him doesn't make Him real.

But here's the thing. Christians have staked their lives and their eternal souls on that risk. And not on blind faith, for the most part - many of us have logical, reasonable explanations based on historical, psychological, and physical facts for why we believe Christianity to be true. Yes, there is a point where faith steps in, but faiths that offend reason don't tend to win many converts in this day and age.

To make my point; what does all this have to do with Wicca, or the accusations of intolerance and judgementalism? Just this: Christians are under the obligation to agree with what scripture tells them about God and what He says about other faiths. He tells us there are no other gods but Him, and that to worship anything else is idolatry. He tells us not to engage in witchcraft. He clearly delineates the difference between "miracles" and "magic". He forbids us to attempt to communicate with the dead. We don't always understand His reasons for these commands, but as Christians our duty is to obey Him, not ask why we can't play with supernatural forces, whether those forces are demonic in origin or not.

So if a Christian is offended by the Wiccan claim that there is a God and a Goddess, you have to understand that this claim runs contrary to the very core of his belief system. It's an abomination to him because it is an abomination to his God. And if he tries to convince you of the truth of Christianity, it's (ideally) out of love for you, not intolerance of your beliefs.

Let's talk about the fear and ignorance factor, now:

There are plenty of Christians who, in arrogance and pride, use scripture as a weapon to clout nonbelievers over the head, and who take the "I'm right and you're wrong" mentality to the extreme of self-righteousness. They are not speaking out of love, but out of elitist pride, which often has its roots in fear. An insecure person tends to lash out at those who disagree with him.

Most Christians have experienced this at some time or another - I know God has called me out on it before. And I sincerely regret any damage I may have done with that attitude, and mourn over the souls that have been lost throughout the ages because of it. The witch trials of which you spoke, Siren, are a prime example. I don't know a single Christian who would look back on such occurences and call them good. They are an unmitigated tragedy, and run counter to both Old and New Testament teachings. It would certainly be fair to call the perpetrators of such crimes "intolerant" and "judgemental" and I have no doubt that God's judgement upon them was severe.

It's understandable, Siren, that you don't want Christians stating that your religious beliefs are dangerous or demonic. And I have no doubt that to you they seem completely benign. As a fantasy buff and a lover of folk myth and faerie lore, I understand completely the attraction to Wicca. So please don't think I look down upon you...but you have to realize that as a Christian, I must believe what the Bible says about witchcraft and magic, the nature of God, and my own duty to share the truth of the gospel. My duties end there, and nowhere am I told to hate and vilify those who do not agree with me. And that, I think, is the difference between faithfulness to my God and intolerance. To someone on the other side of the fence, it may be hard to differentiate between them - nobody likes to be told that somebody else thinks his or her beliefs are wrong, after all. But please don't confuse Christians who are simply being faithful to their beliefs with people who are so fearful that they lash out at you for disagreeing with them.

[Namaste]

Just a side note, the mention of intolerance that I stated in my posting is from all sides, there are quite a few Christians who are intolerant, but there are also people of other faiths who are as well. And that intolerence gets my goat every time.

The problem is, no one has the market cornered on being 'right'. Beliefs are just that, they coincide with feelings and emotions. When someone's feelings and emotions are being 'displayed' as being 'wrong', then yes, people will react accordingly and they will get indignant. I am guessing that Siren has probably had a few clashes with Christians who profess to know everything. I know I have, but there is a fine line between being faithful, and being 'holier than thou'.

I have met some of the kindest and most accepting Christian people in the world, but I have also met those who profess to love Jesus, but then turn around and sock their neighbor in the mouth. The ones I admire and regard highly are the ones who live their faith, and see no need to come out and try to push it onto others. Generally, when it comes to discussions with Christians, I tend to find a lot of people who I think instead of being faithful, they are simply trying to prove to themselves how 'right' they are. These are generally the ones I tend to call 'intolerant'. Yet, most of the intolerence is found on the Internet, not in real life everyday situations. Thank God for that. :)

I want to make note that in a forum that is predominently Christian in belief, it is far easier for Christians to find those who agree with them.

Perhaps what people need to realize is that it is not easy for a person of a different faith to come here and try to post something. If you think it is, then I challenge the Christian members to go hang out in a New Age forum, or signed up for a Islamic mailing list.

That old saying, there is power in numbers, seems to apply here full force.

[Queen Swanwhite]

for me Wicca is evil. I don't know alot about it, but I know enough to know it is evil. Is it like they think that sometimes they can control the weather etc.? I read about someone who is wicca in a magazine... :o

[inkspot]

for me Wicca is evil. I don't know alot about it, but I know enough to know it is evil. Is it like they think that sometimes they can control the weather etc.? I read about someone who is wicca in a magazine... :o
LOL - go back to the beginning of the thread and read Siren's post. She explains Wicca. Then continue reading the Thread, it contains many opinions and Prince of the West offers some background he discovered. It will answer some questions, just reading through the whole thread before you post.

And keep in mind, some folks on the site might follow Wicca as a religion, and although you might tell them where it differs from your faith, it is short-sighted just to jump in and say "It's evil!" What if they said that about your faith, because it is different from theirs?

[Gryphon]

Hey Siren, many walls of text huh? :p thats what you get in religion thread like this.

Anyway, i was hoping you could clear up something for me. I heard something about all people who follow Wicca believe in diffrent things, is that right? I've read some stuff on it but I'm afraid some of it is still fuzzy to me.

Other than that, I chose Christianity becuase it made the most sense and it still has verses that apply to today. True that most people dont do the things that are in the old testament anymore but thats a very long explaination to go into.

I hate it when people act too much like sheep in Christianity and never step up to being a shepherd. What makes it worse is the apathy that so many teenage Christians have and we get to where we're bored with God.

I thought it was interesting how you said "Miracles can be witchcraft and witchcraft can be miracles." I think it would surprise alot of people to know how much witchcraft is in the Christian church....

[Queen Swanwhite]

LOL - go back to the beginning of the thread and read Siren's post. She explains Wicca. Then continue reading the Thread, it contains many opinions and Prince of the West offers some background he discovered. It will answer some questions, just reading through the whole thread before you post.

And keep in mind, some folks on the site might follow Wicca as a religion, and although you might tell them where it differs from your faith, it is short-sighted just to jump in and say "It's evil!" What if they said that about your faith, because it is different from theirs?

All I said was I think it's evil....that's what people were asking

I know enough about Wicca to make my mind up, and my mind says, evil

[inkspot]

Yes, well, to be a contributing voice in the Thread, it would help if you gave your reasons rather than just "I know enough, and it's evil."

Suppose there were a three-page Thread explaining Christianity, I jumped in and said:
for me CHRISTIANITY is evil. I don't know alot about it, but I know enough to know it is evil. Is it like they think that sometimes they can control the weather etc.? I read about someone who is Christia in a magazine...
Would this be fair to Christians? Would it make you believe I had seriously looked at your faith and evaluated it in light of Scripture? Or would it seem like a bit of a knee-jerk?

You can believe anything you want is evil, whether you know about it or not. But when you go to post in a discussion Thread like this, you should have some basis in reality for what you say, other than just "I know enough to know it's evil!" otherwise, you may come across as a person who is not very thoughtful.

Just a thought.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

The problem is, no one has the market cornered on being 'right'. Beliefs are just that, they coincide with feelings and emotions.
This is a textbook example of the type of thinking that Lewis was so good at unmasking and answering. It expresses a very common modern attitude that has only been around for the past few hundred years or so. This attitude holds that reason, logic, and proof have to do with objective, scientific reality, while beliefs and opinions have to do with subjective reality - individualized things that can vary from person to person. Forum member Charn_Tim, good student of Lewis that he is, put it well in another thread: the idea is that when the focus shifts from the physical to the metaphysical, the outlook shifts from objective to subjective.

Lewis was one of the most effective and eloquent opponents of this nonsense. G.K. Chesterton was another, but Lewis put it magnificently both in essays and in fiction. Lewis repeatedly pointed out that metaphysical realities were not only objective realities that don't vary depending on what any given person believes, but were more real than the physical realities that we deal with in the world around us. The very grass and flowers of the Bright World in The Great Divorce were so hard that they pierced and pinched the ghosts who came on the Bus. The eldila had to modulate their appearances so they wouldn't overwhelm the flimsy humans they were dealing with, and they passed through planets not because they were insubstantial, but because they were so much more real than the planets that the matter was insubstantial and vaporous by comparison. Even the New Narnia was solider and more real than the old one had been.

Not only are metaphysical realities real, but they can be apprehended by reason as well as belief. The Resurrection of Christ is an example. It wasn't just a "spiritual event" - Jesus actually walked out of the tomb, and when the disciples went to look, He wasn't there any more. When He did appear to them, He was patient with their incredulity and offered reasonable proofs - He let them touch Him, He ate some fish.

Furthermore, logic applies to metaphysical realities as well. Were I to say, "I've never been to Nairobi, so I don't believe it's there", people would justifiably think me a fool. Whether I ever lay eyes on Nairobi or not, my disbelief would have no effect on its existence. Likewise, if I really, really believed that Atlantis was located 500 miles due west of Dublin, that would not make it appear. This principle applies to metaphysical realities as well, for they are not less real than physical ones. If there is no being named Loki, no amount of believing on anyone's part will create him. Likewise, if Jesus is seated in power at the right hand of His Father's throne, it wouldn't matter if nobody believed it - that would be reality.

To say that "no one has the market cornered on being 'right'" when discussing metaphysical realities is just one step shy of saying "there is no permanent, objective right in the metaphysical world, so everybody should just believe whatever they like." But to say that there is nothing objective in a certain realm is to make an objective statement. And to that particular statement, Lewis would say, "Nonsense!" There either is, or there isn't. This is what Sunrise was getting at in her earlier post - orthodox Christians have been told that things are a certain way, and we trust the message. We fully understand that Muslims believe a different message, but one of us is wrong. It isn't that Christians will go to a Christian heaven to be with Jesus while Muslims go to a Muslim heaven to be with Allah. We're all going to the same place, and some of us are going to be in for some surprises.

I post this knowing full well that it's probably going to get responses like, "well, that's what you believe". Yes, it is - but the vital matter is not my belief, but the reality that's out there, and how well my beliefs align with it. Some realities are more immediately obvious than others, but all eventually make themselves known. That's what Lewis taught me.

[Queen Swanwhite]

Yes, well, to be a contributing voice in the Thread, it would help if you gave your reasons rather than just "I know enough, and it's evil."

Suppose there were a three-page Thread explaining Christianity, I jumped in and said:

Would this be fair to Christians? Would it make you believe I had seriously looked at your faith and evaluated it in light of Scripture? Or would it seem like a bit of a knee-jerk?

You can believe anything you want is evil, whether you know about it or not. But when you go to post in a discussion Thread like this, you should have some basis in reality for what you say, other than just "I know enough to know it's evil!" otherwise, you may come across as a person who is not very thoughtful.


Just a thought.

Good point, but I have made up my mind, and I say it is evil! :rolleyes:

[PrinceOfTheWest]

So, does this mean you go in the "I believe it, so that makes it real for me" column? You should read more Lewis, my queen!

[Queen Swanwhite]

So, does this mean you go in the "I believe it, so that makes it real for me" column? You should read more Lewis, my queen!

I have read Lewis. This is why I try to stay away from these threads. People, for saying your opinion, come down on you like a ton of bricks. Don't tell me what to do, and stop being so sarcastic. I never said I thought my opinion is right, because, I also said I didn't know much about Wicca, but I know ENOUGH to make up my mind and think it's evil. At the end of the day, you think it's evil or not evil

[inkspot]

I have read Lewis. This is why I try to stay away from these threads. People, for saying your opinion, come down on you like a ton of bricks. Don't tell me what to do, and stop being so sarcastic. I never said I thought my opinion is right, because, I also said I didn't know much about Wicca, but I know ENOUGH to make up my mind and think it's evil. At the end of the day, you think it's evil or not evil
We are only telling you what to do in so far as we would like your actions to reflect the knowledgable and thoughtful person we know you truly are.

It's okay to state your opinion, but when you do so in one of these discussions, it's a good idea to have some reasoned logic or argument to back you up. That's all.

The point of it isn't only to state your opinion, but to tell us why you feel that way in a logical fashion (as opposed to: I know this is what I think! which tells us nothing about why you think what you think...)

See?

And PoTW wasn't being sarcastic, he was playing with you.

[Queen Swanwhite]

We are only telling you what to do in so far as we would like your actions to reflect the knowledgable and thoughtful person we know you truly are.

It's okay to state your opinion, but when you do so in one of these discussions, it's a good idea to have some reasoned logic or argument to back you up. That's all.

The point of it isn't only to state your opinion, but to tell us why you feel that way in a logical fashion (as opposed to: I know this is what I think! which tells us nothing about why you think what you think...)

See?

And PoTW wasn't being sarcastic, he was playing with you.

Playing is being sarcastic in a thread like this. I'm just getting annoyed. Every thread about Chrisitanity that I post in, everyone comes back and says really sarcastic and sometimes even hurtful things.

My opinion: *clears throat*

Personally I think Wicca is evil BECAUSE they think they can control the weather etc. As I've said before, I don't know much about Wicca, but I know enough to think it is wrong. I'm going to leave it at that. Say whatever you want.

[Gryphon]

Queen Swanwhite, dont you think its better to know your enemy? If you're going to speak out against something you should know about it and be able to back it up not just say "Oh, I know enough to know that it's evil" becuase thats not going to be enough to convince people that it really is.

[ernie]

A little nervous to post in this one...My personal opinion on Wicca is this:

(Clearing my throat too)

Wicca is not of God. It does not conincide with his plan. He has told us that witchcraft is wrong. People who practice it may not be evil, but they are not following Him. Like several people who have posted before me have said (sorry, I can't remember who you are!), as part of my beliefs, I think that I am right and that Wiccanism is not. Simple as that. I'm sure that is how Queen Swanwhite feels. I also beleive that things that are not of God are prompted by Satan to lead us astray. Maybe that's what Swanwhite thinks. I'm not telling Siren they have to believe anything. That's how I feel.

[Namaste]

Gryphon is right to some extent. I would say that going out and making blanket statements about something you don't understand only shows the rest of the world the lack of intelligence that you display. Statements of this kind are offensive to people reading, especially those who practice the faith that you are targeting. If someone made such a blanket statement about my beliefs here, I really don't really know what I would do, leave, perhaps. I simply don't know.

On one forum I used to frequent, I tried to explain my beliefs and a Christian girl comes on and says that I was going to burn in hell for eternity and that it was similar to being dipped into a volcano. I was aghast by that and reported the post. The moderator banned her from the forum, but it left a very bitter taste in my mouth and I eventually left the forum entirely and never went back.

PotW, I read through your posting, you made some interesting points, however, I will say that you said it, those are your beliefs, and although they do coincide with Lewis' writing, great. I haven't read much of Lewis' works outside of Narnia, so I can't really come back with any solid based arguments. But, fear not, I did win two books on Ebay, and am waiting for them to arrive as I type. Once I read through then I will be able to elaborate on my thoughts about his writing, whether I agree or disagree. I figure that in some ways I will probably not agree, whereas in some ways I will agree. At any rate, should be interesting reading.

Deleted the rest, it went off topic and that was not my intention. :)

[inked]

facts...

"The best single article - good for forwarding - debunking modern Wiccan claims of the antiquity of their movement and their mass persecution was published in The Atlantic in 2001, and was written by friend o' this blog, Charlotte Allen.

Historians have overturned another basic Wiccan assumption: that the group has a history of persecution exceeding even that of the Jews. The figure Starhawk cited -- nine million executed over four centuries -- derives from a late-eighteenth-century German historian; it was picked up and disseminated a hundred years later by a British feminist named Matilda Gage and quickly became Wiccan gospel (Gardner himself coined the phrase "the Burning Times"). Most scholars today believe that the actual number of executions is in the neighborhood of 40,000. The most thorough recent study of historical witchcraft is Witches and Neighbors (1996), by Robin Briggs, a historian at Oxford University. Briggs pored over the documents of European witch trials and concluded that most of them took place during a relatively short period, 1550 to 1630, and were largely confined to parts of present-day France, Switzerland, and Germany that were already racked by the religious and political turmoil of the Reformation. The accused witches, far from including a large number of independent-minded women, were mostly poor and unpopular. Their accusers were typically ordinary citizens (often other women), not clerical or secular authorities. In fact, the authorities generally disliked trying witchcraft cases and acquitted more than half of all defendants. Briggs also discovered that none of the accused witches who were found guilty and put to death had been charged specifically with practicing a pagan religion.

If Internet chat rooms are any indication, some Wiccans cling tenaciously to the idea of themselves as institutional victims on a large scale. Generally speaking, though, Wiccans appear to be accommodating themselves to much of the emerging evidence concerning their antecedents: for example, they are coming to view their ancient provenance as inspiring legend rather than hard-and-fast history. By the end of the 1990s, with the appearance of Davis's book and then of Hutton's, many Wiccans had begun referring to their story as a myth of origin, not a history of survival. "We don't do what Witches did a hundred years ago, or five hundred years ago, or five thousand years ago," Starhawk told me. "We're not an unbroken tradition like the Native Americans." In fact, many Wiccans now describe those who take certain elements of the movement's narrative literally as "Wiccan fundamentalists." "

http://amywelborn.typepad.com/openbook/

[Siren]

Wow...you guys have been busy. That took me nearly a hour to read it all. Thank you!

Though I don't have the time to address EVERYTHING...I will try to address some of it.

First of all...Wiccans do not control the weather. No more then you. I will say in the summer of 1998, Florida was gripped in a terrible drought and many fires were breaking out. I had planted a beautiful flower garden and my best efforts brought nothing but withered leaves. I knew it needed the healing power and minerals of the rain. I had just begun learning about Wicca and practicing the prayers and meditations. However, never a spell. That was my first. I gathered my ingriendents. They were various plants, none of which I will list because as I said, this thread was never created to get people to turn to Wiccan belief or spells, just stating the facts which I know. I did as the text said. Asked Mother Earth to grant me rain...notice, I asked. It was not a command, thus having control of the weather. It is in my beliefs that only She can control the weather, I just ask her the favor of it. After the spell was done, I meditated, imaganing rain clouds. And then it began to rain. Not the rain I had envisioned, but a sun shower. That is the extent to which I can "control" weather. I asked for a long rain and I gota short spit. I wasn't about to complain. ;) I'm a Wiccan, not an X-men. I can't control weather, people, events, time, etc.

And about not knowing much about Wicca and still thinking its evil. Isn't it better to know about Wicca and know all the facts you can find and THEN say its evil? I don't know much about the Chumash indian tribe's beliefs...So should I think they are evil? I took the time to learn about Christianity and see absolutely nothing wrong with it, other then, I don't share the same beliefs.

About how Wicca deals with the changes due to science...the same way Christians and every other religion has. We know the earth is round. So the rituals have been adjusted to accomodate that.

I know I'm not being specific. I rather not discuss every little detail and explain all the customs and holidays celebrated. Reason being, again, this thread isn't a "Wiccan recruitment". Simply a thread made by a Wiccan who wants people to know her, before they judge her religion. I rather people found a religion (any religion) on their own rather then listen to someone on a forum talk about it.

[Jood]

[QUOTE=Siren]Fender> You took that too personal. And yes, that is still selling your daughter. It was a practice done once. No longer. Just as there are ancient practices in EVERY religion that are done no longe.[QUOTE]
uhhh...I didn't take anything personal, how can I? I don't even know you. besides, thats what God comanded us to do. We don't do it, but I don't know if Jews do it anymore. Really, that can't bes considered selling. The suitor didn't pay till like RIGHT before the wedding. It wasn't like: "I'd like to get to know your daughter in view of a marriage relationship" then the Father says
"Show me the money first". Come one folks! Mabye I'm getting the wrong impression, who else considers this not selling?!

[Gryphon]

Fender, you dont know much about what happened concerning marriage do you? Yes, they did sell their daughters but that was more for protection than anything. If they couldnt pay for the daughter there was a pretty good assurance that they wouldnt be able to take care of her.

[LifeMaiden]

Whoa, there's a lot more to wicca than I realized. From what I have seen in bookstores, I thought it was primarily a religion of sorts that dealt with nature worship and the use of herbs and spells to heal, etc. I don't really know much about it, apparently. I've read where a lot of women who believe in goddesses and goddess power practice wicca. It seems to be to be some kind of feminine-empowering thing.

[Elendil]

Look, I don't know much about wicca, but I know a fair amount about witchcraft. And it is a horrible, EVIL, terrible thing.
If I were to post some of the things that witchs/witchdoctors/warlocks/wizards, do, this would probably get deleted. So I'm not going to post it, but let me tell you this. Witchcraft, and the spirit world are VERY rule. I belive in demons, and spirits, and angels and God. (I am a christian) All these things are talked about in the bible, and I've seen them happen in real life.
I know I'm repeting myself, but witchcraft is horrible terrible and VERY EVIL. Satan, has power in this world, but God has stronger power. But it's your own choice whom you serve. Satan works through people in the form of witchcraft. But with God witchcraft can and is defeted (I've seen that too) So Siren, I'm not saying you're evil, I'm only saying that practicing witchcraft is. It's your choice what you do, but I'd stay clear

[Namaste]

Most religions have a lot more to them than just the assumptions that we might have about them. If a belief system is cut and dried, then what would be the point of it?

I wanted to ask Siren what your take on meditation is? Do you use herbs or candles as aides or are there special rituals that you have when you meditate? Is meditation for wiccans a form of prayer? I read your statements about the prayer for rain and thought that was quite fascinating and would like to read more from you. Spiritual experiences fascinate me. :)

For me personally, I try to meditate daily, through either a written meditation (that is I write whatever comes) or through some silent moments of sitting in the stillness. I recently started taking a yoga class and our yoga master said that breathing exercises are very good for meditating.

[Elendil]

Did you know yoga, is demon worship?

[Ephinie]

Did you know yoga, is demon worship?Not to be rude, but how do you know? What specifically about yoga invites demonic activity? I was under the impression that it was just breathing excercises in various positions that were supposed to help relax you.

[Elendil]

Every 'various' position is a sighn of worship to a demon, and the chanting (not all people chant, but those that do) is inviting a demon into you.

[Namaste]

Oh give me a break!

Yoga is not done with chanting. Since people like book definitions, here are a couple.

Meaning union with the divine, yoga is a philosophy and discipline applied to the development of mind, body, and spirit. There are many disciplines of yoga emphasizing different aspects or combination of mind body spirit. Through practices of holding a variety of body positions or asanas, and the centering of the mind and breath in a meditative way, the practitioner increases body awareness, posture, flexibility of body and mind and calmness of spirit. footnotes for health (www.footnotesforhealth.com/definitions.html)

or

An ancient system of practices originating in India. It is aimed at integrating mind, body and spirit to enhance health and well-being. There are many different forms of yoga. Hatha yoga — the most widely practised form of yoga in the Western world — uses specific postures and breathing exercises. nature.com (www.nature.com/nri/journal/v4/n11/glossary/nri1486_glossary.html)

I would strongly suggest finding out something about it before making blanket statements.

[Ephinie]

Every 'various' position is a sighn of worship to a demon, and the chanting (not all people chant, but those that do) is inviting a demon into you.Um... thanks, but that doesn't actually tell me anything. How do you KNOW? Can you cite your source of information?

[~Grateful * Surrender~]

Wicca isn't bad. But the hate that people give it is. Its not healthy, for either side. People fear what they do not understand. Understand it, and the fear is gone.
So before you go and judge my religion...judge me.

Before anything is said I would like to make one thing very clear I am a Christian by my own accord. My parents are Christians as well so I was raised in a Christian home but that is not why I believe what I believe. I did research, I tried other stuff, and it all lead me back to here.

That being said I want to say that I think it is not good to hate other people for what they believe for they are just as we are…believing in what they think is right. Now I am not saying that all religion is true because anyone who knows anything about Christianity knows what the Bible teaches on the subject of true religion. I believe there is one right path, that there is an after life, and there is a heaven and a hell. I believe in Satin, and I agree that he should not be held up by some simply to scare others but he should be truly feared for he can not only destroy the body but also the soul (Mathew 10:28).

I believe that Wicca is real. It is a very real religion and the powers that those of that faith displayed are not a fluke or pretence, they are real. Some say that such practice is a fantasy and a concept of uneducated minds that cannot face reality but it is not so. Those who practice religion such as Wicca have extinctive knowledge of the spiritual realm and are by no means uneducated. They for the most part probably know more about their religion and beliefs than most Christians.

In saying that all I am not advocating the practice of Wicca in any way because I believe in one-way and that way only. Call it exclusive but it is true. Jesus said, “I am the truth the way and the light and no man comes to the Father but by me.” Christianity has stood the test of time, authenticity, and some of the hardest persecution known to man. Other religions have come and gone, risen with one tide and fallen away with the next. Wicca has taken on many different forms since the beginning of time yet Christianity has stood it’s ground.

I have done my research…granted not as thoroughly as others but I know my stuff. I personally would rather believe in a God that loves me so much that he would sacrifice everything so that I could have life eternally. I would rather be in a religion that matches up and has proven itself against the tests of time instead of something that always changes. I know that my feet are sunk into concrete that will not shift with time and I have such peace knowing where I am going when I pass away.

I do not want to be known for how I am for I am a traitor and a really bad person but I would rather be known for the one who gives me the strength every day to make the right choices and to be the best that I can be.

[Elendil]

Um... thanks, but that doesn't actually tell me anything. How do you KNOW? Can you cite your source of information?
People who have done yoga.

Namaste: This is something people don't go round talking about, most people don't even know, that is what they think, but there is a deeper meaning to it.

TFT: I totally agree with everything you said.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Wow, so many good points (and some not so good, though I don't want to dwell on my own posts... :D ) Let's see if I can respond a bit to keep the ball rolling.

To digress on a digression: Elendil, much as I appreciate your caution, there's no indication that the physical exercises associated with yoga in any way promotes false worship or the influence of unclean spirits. Mind you, I fully believe in both and am at least as on guard against them as you are, but the physical exercises per se are merely that - physical exercises. You may legitimately caution people is against the practice of emptying one's mind - often taught as an integral part of yogic exercise - which can leave people open to unclean spiritual forces, but there's nothing about stretching and balancing that is idolatrous. You may be falling prey to what I call the "tainted origins" error, which holds that if something rises from a faulty source, it is irretrievably tainted and should not be used. St. Thomas Aquinas was accused of this when he drew on the pagan Aristotle to support some of his teachings. He dispatched the complaint by pointing out that all truth belongs to God, no matter where it came from, and the use of that truth glorifies God. In the case of physical exercise, caring for our bodies is an objective good (and one I should do more of :(), and thus to do it with appropriate caution glorifies Him.

I also need to point out that this thread was started to discuss Wicca, and even a discussion of yoga - much less whether yoga constitutes demon worship - is off topic.

Namaste, dear friend, you raise so many good points that it is almost worth a thread in its own right, but let me try to answer quickly here. The thrust of your many of your posts seems to be the importance, almost the centrality, of belief per se: that the very act of believing, and believing fervently, is the most important aspect of one's relation to the metaphysical. Now, I will acknowledge that believing (setting our will) is important - indeed, more important that we often realize - but of even greater importance is what we're believing in. Are we believing in something that corresponds to objective reality? For instance, there is still a (dwindling) group called the Flat Earth Society. They believe very strongly in their stand that the earth is flat. However, the object of their belief is a falsehood - it does not correspond to objective reality, how things actually are.

It's easy to say, "well, that case is simple enough, because it has to do with physical things that can be verified by science." The usually unspoken completion of such a statement is, "but those things that cannot be verified by science are subjective, and nobody can say anyone else is right or wrong when speaking of them." This seems to be the communication disjoint that we keep catching on, as your response to my earlier post indicates. Yes, those are my beliefs, but I do not propound them because they are what I prefer, or they make me comfortable, or even because I'm very fervent in them. I propound them because they are the best reflection of objective reality that I can find - even though that reality is metaphysical by nature. Even appealing to Lewis just pushes the issue back a level ("those are just Lewis' beliefs"), and he would be the first to admit that he was only passing along what he'd learned from more trustworthy sources.

The pivotal question is this: what's the truly important thing - the act of believing in something, or the reality of the thing being believed in? Both have importance, but I'm following in Lewis' footsteps when I contend that the most important thing is that which is being believed in. Is it real? Is it trustworthy? Does it correspond to how things actually are? Your outlook seems to be that the central issue is that there are numerous "belief systems" jostling for attention in the market, and the important thing for a person is to find one that he or she can really "get into", one that "meets my needs" (to borrow idioms from my generation). Lewis' point is that the important thing is to find one that corresponds most closely to the way things actually are. He was quite frank about the fact that he chose Christianity not because it was comfortable, or rewarding, or met his immediate needs. He once compared reading the Sermon on the Mount to getting smacked in the face by a board. But he clung to Christianity, and (more importantly) conformed himself to it's teachings, because he believed them the most accurate reflection of objective reality.

This is not a complete digression, but pertinent to the next point, which is wicca itself. A reminder to all that there is a difference between Satanism and wicca, and this difference is understood and maintained by both parties. Satanism is the explicit invocation of dark spiritual forces, while wicca is, in essence, nature worship. The use of the term "witchcraft" by some wiccans may have confused the matter, since witchcraft has historically been connected with satanic practices, but that's part of the reason why the term "wicca" was invented - to make the differentiation easier.

I may have sabotaged my own point with that earlier link to the book about the recent history of wicca. Interesting though it is to learn that wicca's origins are much more recent than some of it's adherents may believe, that does not engage the central issue of what the modern practice of wicca actually is, which is nature worship. As I just pointed out, this is not the same thing as worshiping dark spiritual forces, but that does not mean that it is harmless.

The Revelational (i.e. those believing in truth revealed by God) faiths - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam - are all united on one point: that to worship any created thing is the definition of idolatry. We may honor men, appreciate nature, stand in awe of truth and ideal, but worship is reserved for God alone. This has to keep getting hammered home because typically we cannot apprehend God as we apprehend the rest of reality - i.e. through our senses. We Christians contend that there was a period of time about 2000 years ago when God could be apprehended by our senses, if you were in the right place, but even then He mostly disguised his appearance as a Galilean peasant. Since those things which we apprehend through our senses seem the more immediate reality, that's what we tend to focus on. And, whenever man drops his eyes from God, he'll tend to focus on the greatest thing less than God that falls into his field of vision. Often throughout history this has been nature and natural forces.

The Scriptures are surprisingly understanding of this tendency. In the Wisdom of Solomon, chapter 13, the author has this to say:

For all men who were ignorant of God were foolish by nature;
and they were unable from the good things that are seen to know him who exists,
nor did they recognize the craftsman while paying heed to his works;
but they supposed that either fire or wind or swift air,
or the circle of the stars, or turbulent water,
or the luminaries of heaven were the gods that rule the world.
And if men were amazed at their power and working,
let them perceive from them how much more powerful is He who formed them.
For from the greatness and beauty of created things
comes a corresponding perception of their Creator.
Yet these men are little to be blamed, for perhaps they go astray
while seeking God and desiring to find him.
For as they live among his works they keep searching,
and they trust in what they see, because the things that are seen are beautiful.

This encapsulates my question to wiccans and others who worship lesser things: why stop there? If you can see the beauty of Nature (who is indeed beautiful), then why not worship the one who created all that?

The usual answer I've gotten to this has boiled down to two things: not liking the Church, or not liking the moral requirements that goes along with worshipping God. Rather than answer these in anticipation, let me halt my overlong post here and ask Siren directly: why worship the lesser thing? If the Creator is the author of all that beauty, and desires to give you even more beauty than what you can see, why not worship Him directly?

[EveningStar]

I once utterly and completely believed I could get on Highway I-40 from Old Hickory Boulevard. My faith counted for nothing when it came time to head out to Knoxville. The exercise of faith is ennobling, true, but if faith is supposed to be more than just "feel good" meditation, choose wisely. I'm going to Fallon, Nevada all next week. Be sure, utterly sure, that I will choose which airplane I board very carefully. One flight is pretty much like another, but I want my plane to be the one that lands in Fallon, Nevada or I'll feel the whole trip was a waste.

[inkspot]

I once utterly and completely believed I could get on Highway I-40 from Old Hickory Boulevard. My faith counted for nothing when it came time to head out to Knoxville. The exercise of faith is ennobling, true, but if faith is supposed to be more than just "feel good" meditation, choose wisely. I'm going to Fallon, Nevada all next week. Be sure, utterly sure, that I will choose which airplane I board very carefully. One flight is pretty much like another, but I want my plane to be the one that lands in Fallon, Nevada or I'll feel the whole trip was a waste.
LOL, ES. Very good.
This is the point of PoTW's previous: he didn't mean that because Lewis said there is only one objectively right way to God, we had to believe it because we are on a Forum about Lewis.

Rather, Lewis said that because it is the truth: there is only one right way to God, just as there is only one right answer to a math problem. And just because it cannot, now, be scientifically proven, it doesn't make it any less objectively right.

You may believe every road leads to God, or there are various ways to God which are valid, but if that is not the case, and there is only one, then all the other roads are wrong, no matter who says what about them.

And as for why Wicca worships creation rather than the Creator, if I remember right, Siren said they have a goddess they worship, mother nature I guess.

[Namaste]

I think that for as many people on this planet there are thousands of paths that people have to choose from. Lewis may have believed that his way was the 'right' one, but I'm not on the same path as he was, nor do I wish to be.

Beliefs are not like math problems, unless the sum of all things is God. Regardless of how one chooses to call Him/Her, each person is entitled to feel and believe as they their thoughts and heart bring them.

That's all I'm going to say to this thread, I have had a severe migraine for the last two days, and I think it's time for me to practice my yoga and take a rest. I'm not leaving, I'm just taking a rest.

Take care everyone and God bless.

[Pretty~Ruth]

Wicca what is Wicca?

[PrinceOfTheWest]

I'd probably be considered the last person to give a balanced definition, but you can follow this link (http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/wicca.html) to a University of Virginia website which tries to give an objective definition.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

I have had a severe migraine for the last two days, and I think it's time for me to practice my yoga and take a rest. I'm not leaving, I'm just taking a rest. I'll be praying for your migranes - they're terrible! God bless!

[inkspot]

I have had a severe migraine for the last two days, and I think it's time for me to practice my yoga and take a rest. I'm not leaving, I'm just taking a rest.
I am so sorry, Namaste! I used to suffer migraines on a semi-regular basis, and it is a terrible kind of pain. I am praying for you, and I hope you feel better soon.

Thomas Jefferson, a fellow migraine sufferer, said, "Life is the avoidance of pain." Yow, I know how he felt.

[Gryphon]

People who have done yoga.
ooo, did you know that yogurt is devil worship? i know because i've spoken to people who've eaten it :rolleyes:

honestly, you should have a better argument than that to make people believe you.

[inkspot]

ooo, did you know that yogurt is devil worship? i know because i've spoken to people who've eaten it :rolleyes:
LOL, Gryphon, you cheeky little devil! (er, not literal devil, of course)

[LifeMaiden]

Did you know yoga, is demon worship?

Well I guess that means I worship demons then, since I teach Pilates, and some of the moves in Pilates are very much in akin to yoga.

[LifeMaiden]

I once utterly and completely believed I could get on Highway I-40 from Old Hickory Boulevard. My faith counted for nothing when it came time to head out to Knoxville. The exercise of faith is ennobling, true, but if faith is supposed to be more than just "feel good" meditation, choose wisely. I'm going to Fallon, Nevada all next week. Be sure, utterly sure, that I will choose which airplane I board very carefully. One flight is pretty much like another, but I want my plane to be the one that lands in Fallon, Nevada or I'll feel the whole trip was a waste.

Fallon is fifty miles from Reno where I live. :) I might be in a yoga position though when you arrive :D .


I can see where someone MIGHT believe yoga was evil or demonic because its roots are in Hinduism, which has many practices and beliefs that are very different from Christianity. Each position is meant to bring spiritual harmony to the body, not to mention it's great FOR your body. If you think or believe yoga is evil, then come over to my gym and let me teach you some Pilates moves ;)

[Siren]

Yoga, demonic? LOL....Then Sweating to the Oldies with Richard Simmons must be Satan's spawn itself.
And wasn't there chanting in the Catholic church long ago (still now perhaps).
Saying yoga is demonic is like saying power walking is demonic. Its a way to exercise and be in touch with mind and body. Its good for the body. Many doctors recommend it. And its also good for a calming sense. Yogas not meant to be anything but that. The positions seem odd and a bit..."bad", but its no worse then Twister.

On meditation...the only aides I use are to set a relaxing mood. I dim the lights or have them off entirely (unless I decide to meditate outside in the sun). I light candles and/or incense. Sometimes I cast a circle, sometimes I don't. Depends on the reasoning for my meditation. I breathe in the air around me and imagine different things. Sometimes that I am in another world, sometimes I imagine myself simply letting all negativity and anxiety fall off me. I normally start at my head and move to my feet. Another aide I sometimes use if I feel like going to another place is sounds. For instance, if I feel like being at the beach, I will play a cd with the sounds of the ocean, and so on. I would never use any other aides in meditation, especially drugs of any sort. I can meditate just fine without them. And I always meditate before and after spells. And I'll only burn certain herbs for meditation if a spell calls for it. Though I love burning sage. Its smell isn't extreemly pleasent, however, its a cleansing smell. Clears the sinuses.

Also, besides my Wiccan practices, I also have gotten myself deep into many Native American practices and incorporate them into my Wiccan rituals and just general daily things. Such as smudging. I love smudging. Must be some left over thing from when I was a kid and I liked playing in the mud. Smudging is burning sage and then rubbing the burnt sage over the face and body, smudging the ashes onto the skin. It keeps away negative spirits, thoughts, and feelings and protects places and things as well. Wicca and Native American practices, though worlds apart, are similar in many areas. I am a member of the Ouchita tribe of Florida and became so 2 years ago, along with my daughter. We go to meetings there a few times a year. Though much of their culture has been lost and/or moderized, many traditions remain true. Its always a nice trip there.

BTW, meditation is practiced by all sorts of people in all sorts of religions. I know a lot of athiests who meditate. Its not a religious practice, simply a healthy one. You become more in tune to your body. Your heart beat, your breathing, etc. And it helps you release all the troubles from your day. It's like your personal little therapist always waiting for you ;)

It both annoys and amuses me when someone posts, "I don't know much about Wicca, but I know its evil."
That's like saying, "I never ate spinach, but I know it tastes bad."
Isn't is better to educate yourself and then make an educated opinion rather then an insulsting assumption? I rather someone tell me, "I picked up the book, To Stir a Magic Cauldron, and I've come to the conclussion, Wicca is evil, Satanic worship.". At least I know the person took the time to research and come to an educated opinion. Not one based on friends, family, and church leader's other uneducated opinions.

[Lucy the Marshwiggle]

So do we still believe you can do that? Times change and so has Christianity. And I think its time for Christianity to change its view that "If its not Christian, its devil worship."

Wicca is not devil worship. Never was. Wicca is an ancient religion. Created before Christianity...thus, before Satan and the devil. Wiccans do not sacrifice animals or children.

.


um just wanted to add one thing..ur saying here that time has changed for Christianity because things from the Old Testament are getting 'old'. On the other hand, wicca is an ancient religion too, so if you say we should change our views because Christianity has changed it time, maybe you should try to change as well, since 'wicca' is an ancient religion. In addition, I would like to add more more little comment. You say here that Wicca was before Christianity and before Satan and the devil. However, Satan was in the world far before any human was even created. Just thought i should make that clear to you. Also, us Christians dont judge other religions, we just tell the truth :)

[Siren]

Again, when I say Wicca is older then Christianity, I am going on a historical point, not a Biblical one.

And what you see as the truth, I see as an opinion. For instance, is it the truth when you say a movie really stinks or is it an opinion? In my opinion, your "truth" is an opinion. And I will take it as such.

[Lucy the Marshwiggle]

yupp and in a historical point of view, God was created before anything else and Wicca came after mankind was made.

anyway i dont want to argue about what u believe in, believe in what u want to believe. i guess

[Siren]

No, that's not historical. That is relying on the religious timeline. I am talking about scientific evidence of paganisim and the beginnings of the Wiccan religion before Christianity showed up in a scientific level. It's been indicated that it may be as far back as pre-historic times (before the time of writing and reading). While Christianity first shows up on the scientfic historical map around 30A.D.

Not trying to argue, just make my point.

[Saruman]

First, allow me to join with others in welcoming you, and thanking you for sharing your beliefs! This will give an excellent opportunity to learn and understand more about what people who follow the Wiccan religion believe. My hearty thanks to you. :)

Not to be disrespectful of you, Siren, but I believe an attempt to mingle science with Wicca is, quite frankly, risible. You have no conclusive evidence to proffer that the Wiccan religion was founded circa "25,000" BC, much less a sound argument that it has existed long before the "Christian God" was invented. This is, of course, under the pure assumption that He is a figment of man's imagination, that He is a pure invention. I have come to the awareness that the heavens declare the glory of God, and the earth shows forth His handiwork. He has always been, even as He is now, and even as He forever will be. I see science and nature working as an established order of their Creator, bearing testimony of Him and of His existence.

Unless you can give conclusive evidence to support your assertions concerning this religion, I am very much disinclined to agree.

[Gryphon]

LOL, Gryphon, you cheeky little devil! (er, not literal devil, of course)
just trying to lighten the mood there for ya. :D

[~Grateful * Surrender~]

First, allow me to join with others in welcoming you, and thanking you for sharing your beliefs! This will give an excellent opportunity to learn and understand more about what people who follow the Wiccan religion believe. My hearty thanks to you. :)

Not to be disrespectful of you, Siren, but I believe an attempt to mingle science with Wicca is, quite frankly, risible. You have no conclusive evidence to proffer that the Wiccan religion was founded circa "25,000" BC, much less a sound argument that it has existed long before the "Christian God" was invented. This is, of course, under the pure assumption that He is a figment of man's imagination, that He is a pure invention. I have come to the awareness that the heavens declare the glory of God, and the earth shows forth His handiwork. He has always been, even as He is now, and even as He forever will be. I see science and nature working as an established order of their Creator, bearing testimony of Him and of His existence.

Unless you can give conclusive evidence to support your assertions concerning this religion, I am very much disinclined to agree.

Those are very good points that I agree with 100%.
Also Siren, the beliefs of Wicca have been around almost since the beginning of time but Wicca it self has not. Same with Christianity, Jesus has been around since the beginning of time but not necessarily the "Christians". And if you are going on purely historical fact you can't say that Wicca was Predeluvian because that was before writing was invented so you cannot prove that in any way. I am not trying to pick a fight just pointing out some things that I noticed in your argument.

[Sunrise]

If you think or believe yoga is evil, then come over to my gym and let me teach you some Pilates moves ;)

I don't know, IM. I've seen the expressions on people doing Pilates and they certainly seem like they'd like to curse someone - if they had the spare breath to do it! :D

[Siren]

I'm not trying to prove it came first. And now I wished I never said it in the first place, but its not meant to be a "which ever came first is better". Because that's just silly.
There is no conclusive evidence, just theories, as well as artifacts which point to the building blocks of Wicca being that old.

And though I am very spiritual, I still believe in science. Afterall, aren't all our medicines we take found through science? The science of experimentation and theories. No God of any type has given us a finished medicine, just the tools to make it. So you still have to believe in some science in this world. Not everything is black and white, or other worldly. It may have roots there, but its up to use, using logic to find the solutions that prayer cannot give.

Also, I was thinking about somethine else today that I would like to mention. What spells I have done and will not do.
I will not do spells for love or fertility. I feel that is very powerful magick that shouldn't be triffled with lightly. I feel love happens on its own, it shouldn't happen through the use of spells. Not to say they are bad spells, just powerful and can easily backfire. For instance, there are stories that pass from coven to coven about a girl who cast a spell to get her crush to fall in love with her. However, something went wrong. Instead the spell fell upon a stranger who stalked, hurt and killed her. It screams urban legend, but it certainly worked with me. I won't be doing love spells for myself or anyone.
Fertility spells, I would be afraid could backfire.
Now I will certainly pray for these things for myself and others, but not cast a spell for it.
I have done of course the rain spell. I also did a money spell for my mother and it worked. She won at bingo for 2 weeks straight.
I've also done protection and healing spells on pets and wildlife.
I've done protection spells for myself and my daughter. I did do one curse. Though I rather not have gotten deeply into it, I want to be honest about what spells I casted. It was called "the financial retribution spell". There was a bad time in my life a few years ago. There was an issue that involved my daughter's father. He was abusing her...in the worst way...I had done everything legally right. I took her to her doctor, contacted the police and Department of Children and Families (DCF). She started recieving counseling and then she went to a psychiatrist...2 of them. All 3 of these people supported all claims and she was diagnosed with "post traumatic stress disorder" by both doctors. DCF told me to coach her in a round about way by saying, "you need to have her be more specific", I explained I can't help how she describes things in her own words and adjectives and whatever she said will stay that way. They in turn told the police, that I was coaching her. And the police did nothing. For those who may have been in Florida a few years ago, you may remember all the news reports about the DCF workers who weren't doing their jobs by protecting children. They forged documents, didn't follow up, etc. A few of the DCF workers couldn't take the press coverage and actually commited suicide. It was discovered that over 100 kids were lost in the system and even more still in bad situations or dead because DCF workers didn't get the kids out in time. You can see why I lost faith in our DCF. One DCF worker said he believed me, but when they switched over to a new worker who told me to coach her, it went downhill. I was lost. No authority would help us. I stopped visitation, against court order. He threatened to take me back to court, which took a lot of money to do so. So I did a curse on his finances so that he would struggle to raise the funds for his old high priced lawyer and take me back. After a few weeks of losing job after job, he then came one day and tried to break into the house...to kidnap her, hurt her, hurt me, I don't know. Because of that, I was able to get a restraining order...for life. The judge believed her and me and since he couldn't charge him with the crime, he could at least find that he was a danger and flight risk if he got our daughter, so he can't come near. He recently got another job to raise money for a lawyer again, and child support caught up with him. He will have to pay $500 a month in child support...when he was paying $168 a month. So the spell appears to still be active. The idea of doing a negetive spell, a curse, bothered me. I consulted with a coven as well as other solitary witches about it. They told me since my intentions were for the greater good and the spell was designed so that he would not end up so poor he'd be on the street eating from garbage cans, that what I was doing was safer then I thought. With their help, I designed the spell to suit those needs, I spent several hours in meditation, deep in the woods to be close to the goddess and away from all the hussle and bussle around my house. After meditation, I cast the spell, meditated again and went home. Would I do it again? That particular spell against that particular person, yes, but only if needed. Otherwise, never again. Its not in my nature to do something like that. But I was at the end of my rope. I had thought about going underground then, but if I was caught, then she would have been taken away and given to him for sure. The spell I felt was my last resort. And it worked the way it was planned and designed.

[~Grateful * Surrender~]

And that in no way disturbs you that you are taking the role of God in your life and in that of others? I believe in praying no problem but that is simply asking for help instead of taking the fate of others into your own hands. My dad almost died in a Latvian hospital once. He went into seizures and was going haywire because the doctors overdosed him on something. We were told to expect the worse. I remember Mom crying thinking of how we were going to survive there alone. Medicine could not help, science had outdone itself, and the last thing we had was our faith in God. So as a family we prayed and believed that God would do what he saw fit. Thankfully that was to bring my dad back home from the hospital. My point is…if I were to have done some séance and magic I would have been taking the life of my father in my hands. That really unnerves me…not because I am frightened…but because I know I am humane naturally born with evil intent and knowing that in a small way I would be trying to take the place of God. Does that not unnerve you in any sense of the word? That is one thing I have marveled over with Wicca and every spell casting religion out there, how can we dare to try and be God?

[Siren]

Casting a spell is not playing god. Only the God and Goddess can give us the power when we ask of it. If they do not feel fit we should have it, the spell either will not work or will backfire. And only they decide how much power we are given and when to take it away from us. Hence why spells wear off. I feel the Goddess saw that I was in need, and that is why the retribution spell has yet to wear off. When she feels it should be done, she will take it away herself. And if I ever feel like taking a spell away or back, I can do so as well.
For instance, the money spell. It wore off after a while. I could have tried it again and again, but that would be abusing her gifts to me.
A spell can be compared to a complicated prayer. You earn the result by following directions and guidance.

If I asked the Christian God to keep him financially strapped enough to keep him from trying to take her, and He did, would that be okay then? If so, then its okay for me to ask my Goddess the same thing.

I knew I'd get flack for mentioning that one spell, but I have this thing with honesty. Its a strength of mine. I wanted to say what spells I have done and that was one of them. To keep it secret and lie that I never did a curse would go against my character. I'm honest, but not to a fault. Honesty should never be seen as a weakness or a fault. Its a strength. Stone me with words what you will about it. I did it to protect my daughter when every legal means failed. And I cannot pray to the Christian God for help, as He is not MY God. I respect your religion whole-heartably. I only ask the same understanding. I asked my Goddess for help and She did. If you think wrong of me, so be it. Many other people have passed through my life that have wronged me before. I was abused by a boyfriend, I did no spell against him. I was backstabbed by many, no spells against them. I believe in karma, eventually they will get what's coming to them and not by my hands nor spirit. However, when my daughter was harmed and no one would help, that was a whole different story. I wouldn't have done it for myself.

[~Grateful * Surrender~]

I knew I'd get flack for mentioning that one spell, but I have this thing with honesty. Its a strength of mine. I wanted to say what spells I have done and that was one of them. To keep it secret and lie that I never did a curse would go against my character. I'm honest, but not to a fault. Honesty should never be seen as a weakness or a fault. Its a strength. Stone me with words what you will about it. I did it to protect my daughter when every legal means failed. And I cannot pray to the Christian God for help, as He is not MY God. I respect your religion whole-heartably. I only ask the same understanding. I asked my Goddess for help and She did. If you think wrong of me, so be it. Many other people have passed through my life that have wronged me before. I was abused by a boyfriend, I did no spell against him. I was backstabbed by many, no spells against them. I believe in karma, eventually they will get what's coming to them and not by my hands nor spirit. However, when my daughter was harmed and no one would help, that was a whole different story. I wouldn't have done it for myself.

I am sorry if I hammered on you a bit...that was not my intention. A for God not being yours...well in our belief he is everyone’s God no matter what. So in the Wiccan belief what happens in the after life? or is there one at all?

[PrinceOfTheWest]

This is very interesting and illuminating. Thank you for your honesty and willingness to continue the discussion, Siren.

First off, as a man, let me state my shame and sorrow at what you and your daughter have suffered at the hand of your ex-husband. I know that I, personally, had nothing to do with it, but there is a standard of behaviour to which all men are called: to be protectors, providers, and servants, particularly within their own households. Any time any man fails at that calling, it deprecates all men to some degree. I know there is little I can do about your case, but if it is any consolation, any time I hear of a man failing that badly, it acts as a spur to me to fulfill my obligations with more diligence. If it helps, please understand that there are many of us men out here who would never touch a woman or child to harm her.

With reference to your use of the term "the Christian God": if He is who He says He is, then He's your God, too, whether you acknowledge Him or not. He created you and cares for you. For that matter, He created the nature which you love so dearly, and He called it "good", just like you do. When you say I cannot pray to the Christian God for help, as He is not MY God.those words are untrue. You may believe them to be true, but they are not. No matter who you are, no matter what you have done, He is still your God, and will care for you if you ask Him.

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but you seem to be arguing that 1) Jesus would forbid you from casting a spell, whereas the goddess allowed it (under constraints, which I'll return to), so 2) Jesus was leaving you unprotected while the goddess permitted protection, so 3) you went with the goddess for protection. Is this correct? And if I'm correct, do I understand that your implicit challenge to Christians would be, "what would you have had me do?"

The answer would be, "flee to God for protection." Do not scoff! Honestly, now - when your daughter was undergoing abuse and the forces of the State proved no assistance, did you ask God for protection? Did you appeal to Him? Numerous times in His word He states that He hears the plea of the widow and the orphan who are being oppressed, and responds quickly. You might say, "well, he would have known it was going on, so why didn't he do anything to stop it?" Here is a mystery: He likes to be asked, and it seems that sometimes He needs to be asked if He is going to be able to work. When He forbid His people to use means such as spells and incantations to influence events, He did not simply leave them at the mercy of those who could use them. He promised that He would be their protection if hostile neighbors resorted to spiritual or physical weapons. That is what we who follow Him are commanded to do under similar circumstances - use whatever natural means of protection exist (such as build a wall, or in your case make use of certain social structures), but ultimately to trust in Him for protection.

Another point I'd like to bring up: you mention that in using the spell for financial ruin, you did it solely for the protection of your daughter, and that you would not have done it for yourself. You also mention other situations where you could have used spells to advance or protect your own interests, but you didn't because this would have been abuse. This is very interesting, and indicates that we have a common ground: we both recognize that there is a greater law "beyond" (or "behind") the power of spells. This law governs the use of spells (and, presumably, other forces such as physical force). It tells you what right usage is; where to "draw the line" in the use of this power.

Now, I could be mistaken, but this sounds a bit like what Lewis refers to in The Abolition of Man as Tao - the universal understanding of right which guides everyone in fair and correct behaviour. (This understanding is what shames me when I hear of any man maltreating a woman or child - it is a violation of Tao that such things should happen.) I commend you for your restraint, for following Tao in the exercise of these powers. But here's my question - whence comes Tao? This standard which (if I understand correctly) even the goddess would have you follow - what is it's source? If even she acknowledges it, then it must be greater than her, must it not? What is this universal standard? Where does it come from, and to whom does it apply?

I would say more, particularly about the protection of Tao, but this has gone on long enough. I'll be interested in your comments.

[inkspot]

Siren, I echo PoTW in sympathy for your troubles and gratitude for your willingness to discuss your faith here.

Intending no disrespect at all, may I again say to any youngsters who are reading this Thread:

Kids, don't try this at home!
*Siren is not talking about Harry Potter magic come to life.
*You cannot go out in the woods and do spells to curse your enemies or bring propserity to yourself.
*Siren is talking about a religion which requires your total submission.
*You cannot "play" with this stuff to get cool things for yourself or cause misfortune for your enemies.
* If you do, you are opening yourself up to a whole lot of grief because wherever this power comes from, it is much too great for you and will not be trifled with.
* Siren believes she casts spells with the power of the god and goddess of Wicca. I believe she can do it because of some other power. Either way, this is not a fun kind of magic you can play at. This is deadly serious and should be left alone.

Thank you!

[Jood]

Fender, you dont know much about what happened concerning marriage do you? Yes, they did sell their daughters but that was more for protection than anything. If they couldnt pay for the daughter there was a pretty good assurance that they wouldnt be able to take care of her.
YES!!! Gryphon got the picture, he/she said what I was trying to say. It was for protection, they weren't selling their daughters the way people do now.
And no, I don't know ALOT about old marriage customs, but I have been learning. Our Church has recently been studying courtship, rather then todays standards of dating.

[Gryphon]

I'm a girl, just so ya know Fender :D also, the old marriage customs are rather facinating and completely off topic from this thread HAHAHA. Anyway, its a good study, I hope you have fun learning it.

I love your sig my the way, Link totally rocks!

[Siren]

Forgiven Traitor> Though each Wiccan believes just a little bit differently, most Wiccans believe there is no Hell in the afterlife. There is only the Summerland. It is a place that human, animals, and plants are abundant and content.
That's not to say bad people get a free ticket. Wiccans believe in reincarnation. If someone had done injustice, their soul will not rest. Rather, they will be reincarnated into someone else. And they will face the same problems again and must find the right solutions Only then can their soul rest in the Summerlands. We are rarely aware of these past lives. We might see them in glimpses of dreams, or de ja vu and pass it off as concidence and move on to something more important. But that reincarnated soul must act as a conscience to choose what is right and wrong, so when that person is deceased, both souls may rest.
Though good souls can reincarnate too if they are needed.
Since we view life and death as an ongoing process or cycle, we don't see the afterlife as being a reward or punishment in the heaven/hell sense. It's all a growth process. Just because we don't have a 'Hell' to worry about, doesn't mean we feel that we can get away with bad behaviour. Each lifetime is balanced by universal forces. We don't consider negative experiences in our lives as punishments, simply that some lessons are best learned through experience.

PoTW> Thank you for your insight and kind words. I know all men are not like that and I am certainly in a good relationship now. Plus, my daughter has good male role models in her life such as my father and uncles.
And I completely understand what you are getting at with how He is still my God, however, since I do not pray to him, I do not consider Him spiritually "my" God. When I die and if I find out I was wrong all along, so be it. But for now, I do what is right for me. Consider the quotation within my signature, "I rather be hated for who I am, then loved for who I'm not.". Its how I live my life. I try not to be hated certainly, but I cannot force anyone to think good of me. And if they think bad of me, I will not dwell on it and simply move on.
And I never cast a spell without trying other methods. Trying different techniques...for instance, before I tried a rain spell, I spent nearly $100 on fertilizers, plant growth, water supplements, etc. Then I tried praying. And when that didn't work, I tried the spell...and it worked...a little. I never rely on magic first. Never. It is power and should not be abused. I need to first prove that I am worthy of it, because I looked outside my spiritual self for help and guidance. Using spells all the time is being lazy, IMO. As well as abusive and dangerous.

inkspot>No harm taken. Thank you. I do not want any kids trying out spells just for the heck of it or because its cool to them. Its not good. And its hard.

This whole post reminds me of Buffy:TVS. Buffy's best friend, Willow, is Wiccan in the show. And although she does many spells that don't exist and can't be done, she is still at times a good portrayl of what a Wiccan is usually like. She loves nature. She is a loyal friend. She wishes to use her powers for good (as cliche as that sounds).
However, there are episodes that showed how spells are abused. Willow begins to use spells for everyday things, rather then do them herself. This causes her to lose her girlfriend for good, as well as her friends feeling hurt. She thinks nothing of casting a forgetting spell on her girlfriend one day so she forgets the fight they had. And that was terribly wrong. She actually ends up becomming addicted to black magick before her friends help her out...the episodes about it were more a metaphore to drug addiction, but still, black magick is just too dangerous to be triffled with even for the moment. I would never touch the stuff with a 10 foot athame. However, she beat the addiction and was able to continue on as a practioner of white magick.
Let me also say....Willow was originally Jewish. Xander is Jewish. Buffy is Christian.

Let me also deal with the stereotypes of Wicca.
Not all Wiccans are female. There are a lot of men in Wicca. Frankly, I don't know the ratio of men to women, but contrary to popular belief, it is not a female only club. Nor is it a "sisterhood".
Another is, most female Wiccans are lesbian. I'm not. And I'm not the minority. The media has made it to seem both a woman's club and a lesbian club. Even the show Buffy helped that along as Willow was gay.

[Gryphon]

How was Willow and Xander Jewish and Buffy Christian? I dont remember that in the series :confused:

[Siren]

The Christmas episode, Amends. Joyce and Buffy are decorating the Christmas tree. Plus Buffy always wears a cross. And she dreams of a wedding in a chapel. If that doesn't scream Christian, I don't know what does. She never comes out and actually says, "I'm Christian", but its obvious that was Joss Whedon's intentions.

And I made a mistake. Xander isn't Jewish. But I'm not sure if he's Christian either. They never really say. Willow does say she is Jewish in Amends, as well as Bad Eggs. In Amends, she says she goes to Xander's house every Christmas so she can watch A Charlie Brown Christmas, as her family doesn't (or won't let her) watch it at their home. And in Bad Eggs, she says her egg is Jewish. And in Listening to Fear, Buffy refers to Willow as a "tiny Jewish Santa". But Xander doesn't seem to celebrate Christmas in the traditional sense. He said in Amends, I believe, that he spends every Christmas camping in the backyard to get away from his parents drinking and fighting.
Buffy was just one of those few great shows that truely handled real life elements. And even though they'd throw in curve balls and fantasy, it was still very real. The metaphors were evident. And the real life situations were great. Just the fact that your have a group of teenagers that come from seperate religious backgrounds and they all stand together to fight the same evil and would die for eachother. It was such a great series.

[Ephinie]

The Christmas episode, Amends. Joyce and Buffy are decorating the Christmas tree. Plus Buffy always wears a cross. And she dreams of a wedding in a chapel. If that doesn't scream Christian, I don't know what does. She never comes out and actually says, "I'm Christian", but its obvious that was Joss Whedon's intentions.That doesn't scream "I'm Christian" to me at all. Decorating a Christmas tree is a normal cultural thing in America, for anyone EXCEPT those from specific religious backrounds that do not take part in Christmas. The same goes for having a wedding in a chapel. It is a very common American tradition, regardless of whether one is raised Christian or not. And as to wearing a cross, this only makes sense given the fact that she is a vampire slayer. Crosses are seen as a deterrent to vampires in just about every vampire legend or folklore I have read. Even in ones where vampires are immune to crosses, I've seen references to them saying specifically that crosses do not affect them. So it's traditional folklore. Thus, I think that Buffy always wearing a cross is not meant to be a statement that she is a Christian, but rather a play off of traditional religous symbolism in vampire lore.

[Siren]

Then why is she the only Slayer that does. Kendra doesn't. Faith doesn't. And I don't remember any of the Potentials wearing one. There is also a book that explores this called "What Would Buffy Do?". It is about the mixing of several religions in the series. Christistians, Buddists, Wiccans, and Jewish.
Though they never came out and said it, I've always though Buffy a Christian. She is a girl who fights the forces of darnkess. Evil demons that come from Hell. She was "gifted" with the power and strength to fight them. And the Bible is referenced several times in the show. For instance, they mention that before light, there was darkness, and in that darkness was demons. And that the Slayer was created by "The Powers That Be" in prehistoric times. A woman was chosen and she became the First Slayer, and is in the series a few times in dreams. There was never a mention on what power that be gave her this power, but since the episode refered to the The Bible, I always assumed it was God. But saying so on the series may have cause problems Whedon didn't want to deal with, so they hint at it, and let the viewer decide. Also, though I haven't found the article I remember reading about Buffy being Christian. And I did find this quote from Joss.
In a Salon magazine interview, Whedon explained: “I am an atheist, but . . . I do use Christian mythology. . . . I grew up around Christianity and Judaism and those are the prevalent myths and mythic structures of my brain.”

Also, in Whedon's world, crosses burn and deter vampires. All of them...except Dracula. Or if they have the Ring of Amara. Vampires can be killed by fire, sunlight, decaptiation, and of course, staking, in Whedon's Buffy Universe. And in one episode, by drinking holy water, though holy water can also be used on their skin to burn them.
Whedon draws on a rich history of vampire lore, but makes his own mark. Crosses and holy water still work against vampires. Whedon does not romanticize or glorify vampires, as other recent writers have done. Whedon's vampires are brutal, soulless killers. The only two good vampires are Spike and Angel and only because they got back their souls and had to go through a time of intense pain and anguish when their sins as the living dead came back to them. Both Spike and Angel went crazy when their souls were returned to them, for they felt the guilt and shame of killing 100s-1000s. Recieving their souls back wasn't a gift, but a curse so that they would feel remorse forever for all of his evil deeds.
The Buffyverse is a place where evil is punished, and where acts of goodness are their own reward. Redemption requires acts of goodness, not just remorse or good intentions. That's why Angel decides to guide Buffy and Spike decides to sacrifice himself. This would seem to make the world a simple place. But nothing is ever so simple, and the conflict of good and evil takes place most often in the hearts of individuals. Redemption is hard, who can ever say that we've done enough? A huge part of Buffy's spiritual appeal is that it dares to ask these hard questions, and dares even more to leave them unanswered. It makes you think.

[Gryphon]

People wear crosses and dream of weddings in chapels all the time but it doesnt mean they're Christian. Heck even some people who SAY they are Christian arent.

The reason why I dont think Buffy was a Christian was becuase she commited adultery with Angel. If she was supposed to be a Christian I dont think she represented the faith very well at all. She didnt carry the faith that you suggest or at least Buffy as a character never glorifyed God so I find it hard to think that she is a Christian.

I liked the series up until season three or so and then i stopped becuase the plot got super weird and I was confused and all and I found out later that Willow became gay and I stopped mainly because of that. It's rather stupid that they wasted a character like that all for the sake of some ratings :mad:

[Siren]

Joss Whedon had said from the beginning, he always felt wither Xander or Willow was gay. He just didn't know which yet. So he slowly devloped the characters till he found which one was. It was not for ratings. Actually, Buffy got low ratings compared to other shows at the time. It was the critical acclaim and fan following that made it popular, NOT ratings.

One of the bigges things that show was about was tolerance. For people who are different.

And you need to understand the meaning of adultery before you use it. Adultery is Voluntary intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse. Neither Buffy nor Angel was married. I know what you meant by it, but you need to use the proper terminology.
And didn't the show then teach the viewer the reprocissions for that? Did Angel and Buffy live happily ever after? Did they get married and have kids? Did their relationship favor well after it?
No, Angel went total demon and killed Ms. Calender, and mentally tortured Buffy and her friends. And even when he recieved his soul back, they never truely had a relationship after that. So actually, the show taught the viewers that having sex before marriage is not wise. For those who looked up to Buffy, they could see she made a poor choice and suffered consequences for it. Not unlike real life where sex before marriage usually ends up with bad break-ups, pregnancy, STDs, etc. That was the metaphor for the end of their relationship. That having sex before marriage is not the right way to go.

Also, if you think Christians don't have intercourse before marriage, you are sorely mistaken. They do. I know several of them. Doesn't make it right in any way and its wrong. But Buffy doesn't influence people. They do it themselves.
And the show wasn't a Christian show. Hence the lack thereof glorfying God. The show never wanted to be preachy, just use metaphors for real life situations to in a small part, instill good lessons to viewers about many things. Dangers of internet dating, acceptance of those who are different, forgivness, judging a person on their character not their looks, etc. Many of the morals and lessons, where Christian derived. Especially forgivness.

And Willow being gay....All her friends continued to accept her anyways. Another good lesson. That you should never break off a lifelong friendship for something that is trivial to the relationship itself. And in later episodes, we find out Tara, Willow's girlfriend, was menatally abused by her family. They come to take her away from her friends and say she has "demon in her". And by the end of the episode, they try to force her and Buffy and her friends stand up for her and do not let them take her. That is a lesson on true friendship without judgment.

[Gryphon]

okay, if you want correct terms does "Infedelity" work for you? I didnt know which word to use becuase most people dont know the diffrence and big words confuse people around here, haha.

So what if it wasnt for ratings? I really dont care either way, it is for the sake of entertainment.

It's against The Bible to have sex before marriage, didnt you know? It's not whether or not they do, its whether or not they're SUPPOSED to. If you have so called "Christian" friends that had sex before marriage I'd have to say they're either faltering in their faith or not Christians at all. I dont want to judge them but I mean if a Wiccan said they hated nature you would doubt them wouldnt you? In the same way, if they sin against my God and do things against His will how can I assume that they love Him?

[Siren]

There can't be a Wiccan who hates nature. It is a nature-based religion.

Christianity is not a sex based religion. So if a Christian has sex before marriage, that means they sinned. Someone would have to do a lot more then that to be very un-Christian, least IMO. Doesn't suddenly erase the fact they are Christian if they have sex before marriage. If someone who is Christian denounced God, then that would make me wonder if they truely are what they say they are. If you feel God gave us free will and we make a bad choice, then only God can judge us then. No one else. And IMO, God punished Buffy and Angel. I thought according to the Bible, only He can judge and punish us.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Lewis pointed out that the term for someone who professes Christianity but violates its tenets is "bad Christian". Christianity is a statement of belief out a set of precepts. If you profess that you believe those precepts, you are Christian. No amount of violating the laws of God will make you "not Christian", though it will line you up for lots of trouble.

If you deny the precepts of Christianity (e.g. say "I don't believe in that Trinity stuff any more."), then it could be argued that you are no longer Christian (though you could also be considered a Christian apostate). But lying, stealing, breaking your word, commiting adultery - no amount of doing these will make you "not Christian" any more (though you'd be a Christian in big trouble of your own making if you didn't repent.)

[Gryphon]

If someone does something against nature and they say they're a wiccan you would doubt them. You said that nature was the basis of your religion. Well, God is the basis of Christianity, if someone went against Him I would have my doubts.

I dont know much past the third season or so in the Buffy series, but if people who say they are Christians are going against what The Word says is right, then how do you expect me to believe them? Like I said, they are either wavering in their faith or not Christians at all. To sin is to go against God's will, if they go against His will to have sex before marriage and dont repent of that then how can I presume they love my God?

I dont want to judge them, that not the point. They either need help getting past what they've done or they need to reconsider whether or not they are waht they say they are. Everyone makes mistakes, even I do, but that doesnt mean that it's okay with my God. If you do something wrong, you have to make it right.

[Siren]

Lewis pointed out that the term for someone who professes Christianity but violates its tenets is "bad Christian". Christianity is a statement of belief out a set of precepts. If you profess that you believe those precepts, you are Christian. No amount of violating the laws of God will make you "not Christian", though it will line you up for lots of trouble.

If you deny the precepts of Christianity (e.g. say "I don't believe in that Trinity stuff any more."), then it could be argued that you are no longer Christian (though you could also be considered a Christian apostate). But lying, stealing, breaking your word, commiting adultery - no amount of doing these will make you "not Christian" any more (though you'd be a Christian in big trouble of your own making if you didn't repent.)

Exactly.

Commiting a sin isn't an automatic ticket out if Christianity and a straight flight to Hell. I'm not Christian, and I understand and believe that.

In Wicca, the rede (law) is "Do what you will, but harm no one.". And the second law that concides with the first, states that whatever you do, positive or negative, daily life or spiritual, will come back 3 times stronger. It is the Wiccan form of reward/punishment.

Just as in Christianity, when you sin, God punishs you to teach you a lesson.

Though in Wicca, there are no 10 Commandments. There is no official list that says, "Don't do these". Most of it is common sense. Don't hurt people and animals mentally or physically. Only take from nature what you use and do so respectfully. Give thanks to those who've given to you, be it a person, god/goddess, etc.

Also, I am a Eclectic Witch. Or in other words, a "solitary witch". I belong to no coven (church). And do not follow any one doctrine.

And lastly for tonight...there is much misunderstandings about the Wiccan symbol. The pentagram. This is because Satanists use the symbol, though have it turned to a different degree.

I won't post the pictures of either pentagrams here out of respect. However, will explain what the difference is.

Wiccan pentagram: 2 points pointing down. The star is up right.
Satanic pentagram: 1 point pointing down. Often so the face of a goat fits perfectly in line with it.

The pagan pentagram has been used for centuries. Since B.C. times by the druids. While the Satanic pentagram, I personally have only traced as far back as the 17th century. Also, it seems popular for groups like Satanists and white supremesists to "steal" Druid and Celtic symbols. For instance, the Cross of Odin, is used by a high profile group of "white power" advocates. Again, I refuse to mention their name, out of respect and just because, it goes against my moral standings. Unfortunatly, you can't really put a copyright on a religious symbol, ancient or new. So there is little anyone can do about it. It saddens and angers me when they use symbols that were meant for good for such evil purposes. And thus, when people see the pentagram around my neck, they think me a Satanist. No, I'm just a Wiccan. Satanists and those other groups have no imagination to think up their OWN symbol. No, they have to steal from others. Typical.

Some people ask me why don't I just stop wearing the pentagram if it upsets me that people confuse me with Satanists. Because that would be like asking you to take off your cross. For the few people who actually had the gumption to approach me about the symbol, I politely explain to them the differences and then usually say, "Satanists have no imagination. They had to steal the pentagram and then turn it so they felt like they did something special."

Off the rant now...

Each point on the Wiccan pentagram represents an element of the earth as well as ourselves. Earth, Fire, Wind, Water, Spirit (I feel like I'm on Captain Planet...if you're going huh? you're too young to understand the joke I guess).

[Gryphon]

Commiting a sin isn't an automatic ticket out if Christianity and a straight flight to Hell. I'm not Christian, and I understand and believe that.

I'm not trying to say it is, Lord help us if that were true, what I AM saying is that when people sin they are either faltering in their faith or not Christians at all.

[~Aravis'~Legend~]

I have no problem with it outside the fact that many Christians sit down and read a few Christian pamphlets and listen to a few sermons and then look at the world through that person's eyes and heart rather then their own. Rather then look outside the box, take the time, and learn on their own, they follow others like sheep. And this isn't good, for anyone. Of any religion. No one has a right to say, "you believe this because I told you to, thus its right."
It is healthy to read and research yourself. That doesn't mean you go out and buy $100 worth of books at Barnes and Noble, but it doesn't hurt to do a free Google search online to hear the OTHER side of the story.
This is a generalization. Not all Christians are like that. I have know many people who do there own research. The truth is that some people are more diligent than others with their search while others are happy to be spoon fed.

I can't change people's minds that feel Wicca is a form of Satanic worship. However, when I ask these same people, 'Where did you hear that from?'...I get "My mom/dad/pastor/priest/youth leader/friend/cousin/etc". Another place they get it from is the Bible. I think the Bible is a wonderful book with good lessons and I do believe much of what is in there DID happen. Including Jesus. I believe he was a real person, yes. And I am Wicca, yes. However, the Bible says a lot of things that no longer account for in todays world. For instance, there are passages that say you can sell your daughter when she comes of age. So do we still believe you can do that? Times change and so has Christianity. And I think its time for Christianity to change its view that "If its not Christian, its devil worship."
I thought Satan was someone to fear, not to be used as propaganda like a bogeyman to scare people away from other religions. Christianity is a good religion. It doesn't need to scare people away from other religions because it is so good. It wasn't good for me. It didn't fit my beliefs. It's a good religion as in many good people are Christians. So why does the church smear other religions, like mine? It just hurts me sometimes. I have a lot of Christian friends, and yes, they know my beliefs. Most aren't happy, however, they are still my friends and we respect eachother.
I just hope Christianity and Christians can stop the smear campaign. There's no need for it. And it doesn't suit the Christian religion. If there is a Satan, I am sure he is very happy to see people spread lies and hate about other religions. And I would think the Christian God would be displeased about it. I'm not Christian, but I believe in the ethic of not judging my neighbor. I have Wiccan, Christian, athiest, Muslim, and Jewish friends. We all get along because we live by that same ethic. We don't push our religions on eachother because religion isn't a club. Its not a competition to see who can get the most members the fastest. And to see who can make other religion look bad.
Wicca is not devil worship. Never was. Wicca is an ancient religion. Created before Christianity...thus, before Satan and the devil. Wiccans do not sacrifice animals or children.
I'm a Christian, but I believe that Satan has been around since before what you call "Christianity" has been around and so has God. You think of it as a smear campaign and I think of it protecting my own. If I want the ones I love to worship who I believe to be the true God, then of course I don't want them to dabble in Wicca (which doesn't seem to believe in the same God). People who practice Wicca are doing something I believe to be sinful (I'm not saying I don't have my own faults and sins).

So why all the hate for Wicca? Look back in history. To right before the witch trials. Women who practiced herbal medicine or were midwives were seen as a threat. To the church and the doctors. Why? Only men could heal back then...According to the chuch and the doctors. Only male doctors with their medicines could heal the wounded. And only the male church leaders could cure the ill. But when women. Simply housewives and especially single women (and single mothers) started to help people using herbs and plants from the woods, they were labeled witches. Most of these women weren't even practioners of witchcraft and Wicca. Just simple women helping the poor...the poor who could not afford doctors. And because they overstepped their boundaries, they were labeled witches. And then when you turned in a witch, you got their land as a prize. So if your neighbor wanted your parcel of land, they would say you were a witch and you would be tried, found guilty (always) and killed.
So how was the evidence gathered and the confessions made...They would torture people till they confessed. Most people on the rack would confess to being a purple spotted rat if that's what was asked of them. Or the other form was "dunking the witch". A person would be tied up and put in a bag and dropped into a river or lake. If the person floated, they would be accused of using magic to float and would be killed. If they sunk (thus drowned), they would be deemed innocent...and legally dead.
Before the witch trials, witchcraft was known, but pretty much ignored. Thought to be idiocy and silly women games. After the witch trials, the church, the media, and the majority of the people never changed their minds from then on. The church had countless books written on witchcraft, how to find a witch, how to kill a witch, and why witchcraft was bad. All because a few women in a few villages wanted to help the sick.
FYI....Just 2 years ago, all the so called witches of Salem who died horrible deaths, were pardoned of all crimes.
This just proves the ignorance of the times. I believe that scientist were in more danger for their lives than actual witches. Witches have been hunted since old testament times. God told Saul to wipe the out so to speak. Pretty ironic that later in life he went to one to consult a dead prophet (and I believe the dead person consulted was acutally one of the devils of Satan and not a ghost). By this time Saul had turned from God. We also are not to learn the ways of witchcraft because it is so destable to God. If we truly believe in Him and love Him, should we do as He asks?

Wicca isn't bad. But the hate that people give it is. Its not healthy, for either side. People fear what they do not understand. Understand it, and the fear is gone.
So before you go and judge my religion...judge me.
I'm not afraid of it, I'm afraid of what I believe is behind it. God asks us not to judge others, I really think what you're asking here is quite unfair from that standpoint. Many people would love to judge you (even people who call themselves "Christian"), but how would that help your situation or you opinion?

[Ephinie]

Just as in Christianity, when you sin, God punishs you to teach you a lesson.I think this is somewhat of a misrepresentation. Or rather, a misunderstanding. I've never seen any Biblical evidence that God actively punishes Christians for messing up in order to teach them a lesson. When we screw up, we suffer the natural consequences of sin. Now, I've seen all sorts of references where God punished a nation collectively, such as the Israelites in the Old Testament. I've also seen references to God punishing the enemies of his people or people who do not follow him. But to say that in Christianity, when you sin, God punishes you to teach you a lesson... it just does not sound right. He allows his people to suffer the natural consequences of their actions, but I seriously do not think that he actively punishes believers.And lastly for tonight...there is much misunderstandings about the Wiccan symbol. The pentagram. This is because Satanists use the symbol, though have it turned to a different degree.

I won't post the pictures of either pentagrams here out of respect. However, will explain what the difference is.

Wiccan pentagram: 2 points pointing down. The star is up right.
Satanic pentagram: 1 point pointing down. Often so the face of a goat fits perfectly in line with it.

The pagan pentagram has been used for centuries. Since B.C. times by the druids.If it's not too much trouble, could you post some references to this? Primary sources are always preferred, of course, but I can see where it would be difficult to find a primary source for the use of a symbol. And I think there are especially few reference to ancient druids and their practises left behind in writing, so maybe a good essay or something done as the result of an archaeological find? Again, I understand if you can't. It's something I could research on my own, of course, but it sounds like you've already done some research on it; so I just thought maybe you might have something on hand already. While the Satanic pentagram, I personally have only traced as far back as the 17th century.Same as above. Could you recommend any sources?Also, it seems popular for groups like Satanists and white supremesists to "steal" Druid and Celtic symbols. For instance, the Cross of Odin, is used by a high profile group of "white power" advocates. Again, I refuse to mention their name, out of respect and just because, it goes against my moral standings. Unfortunatly, you can't really put a copyright on a religious symbol, ancient or new. So there is little anyone can do about it. It saddens and angers me when they use symbols that were meant for good for such evil purposes. And thus, when people see the pentagram around my neck, they think me a Satanist. No, I'm just a Wiccan. Satanists and those other groups have no imagination to think up their OWN symbol. No, they have to steal from others. Typical.Yes, seems like lots of people have a decided lack of creativity. It could also be argued that the Wiccan pentagram is a similar "copy" so to speak, based on the fact that regardless of ancient pagan customs, Wicca itself is a relatively new religion. Yes, I know that Wicca claims to have roots that go back basically to the beginning of time... and given the fact that it is a nature-worship based religion, and the fact that nature has been around for as long as the earth has... there is some logic to that claim. But the fact remains that Wicca as an organized, practised religion has only been around since the 18th century.

But back to the use of symbols and religions and groups ripping each other off... didn't Solomon say that there's nothing new under the sun? Makes it hard to find a truly original idea, because I doubt there are any.
Some people ask me why don't I just stop wearing the pentagram if it upsets me that people confuse me with Satanists. Because that would be like asking you to take off your cross. For the few people who actually had the gumption to approach me about the symbol, I politely explain to them the differences and then usually say, "Satanists have no imagination. They had to steal the pentagram and then turn it so they felt like they did something special."I commend you for this. There is no reason to stop wearing something that is special to you just because people misunderstand it. Also, for those people who approach you about it, it's nice that they take the time to find out and talk to you about it rather than just making assumptions and then going on with their lives, assuming something about you without bothering to verify it.Each point on the Wiccan pentagram represents an element of the earth as well as ourselves. Earth, Fire, Wind, Water, Spirit (I feel like I'm on Captain Planet...if you're going huh? you're too young to understand the joke I guess).omg... I was never allowed to watch Captain Planet when I was little, but I would sneak and watch it anyways just because I was so curious. And you're right, that totally sounds like Captain Planet, except the fifth thing would be heart instead of spirit. I watched it again a while ago, and it struck me how utterly ridiculous the show was; and I wondered why I ever wanted to bother disobeying in order to watch it in the first place.

[Gryphon]

He allows his people to suffer the natural consequences of their actions, but I seriously do not think that he actively punishes believers.
I dont agree...

Revelation 3:19
"19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent."

nuff said.

[Ephinie]

I dont agree...

Revelation 3:19
"19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent."

nuff said.See now my natural reaction is to go into the differences between punishment and discipline, but it's close enough that I can just admit I was wrong this time. :p

[inkspot]

What about the concept in Christianity that Christ suffered the punishment for us? If He already took my beating, I don't want to take it, too. :(

[Gryphon]

What about the concept of the verse I just quoted?

[Siren]

Aravis_of_Archenland, I'm not here for people to agree with me. I just felt I wished I should discuss it because its part of me. And then let members make a more educated decision. I never expected to hear, "You're right!", all I have expected, was respect. And I feel I have gotten that here. This is not a recruitment post. Hence why I left out some details that would otherwise make it sound so. I even editted a few of my posts because I thought better of what I posted, so that it both wouldn't seem like recruitment and also so it was simply facts and my personal opinions and nothing more.
And yes, you should what He asks of you. I will never tell anyone here they should listen to me or believe my beliefs. Its not my way.

Ephinie, the little history I have on the Satanic pentagram came from Wikipedia. Though I do not believe there is a Satan, I still have a problem with them since they believe in animal sacrifice, among other things, and as such, have an adversion to go their sites to find info. It would be lies anyways more then likely. But on the pentagram itself, it has been used for many number of cultures and religions. Including Christian and Jewish. Though each time it has been used, it often has different meanings. Here is one informative article about it.

The pentagram symbol today is ascribed many meanings and deep significance, though much of this is very recent. However, it has been used throughout history and in many contexts:

The earliest known use of the pentagram dates back to around 3500BC at Ur of the Chaldees in Ancient Mesopotamia where it was symbolic of imperial power.

Amongst the Hebrews, the symbol was ascribed to Truth and to the five books of the Pentateuch. It is sometimes, incorrectly, called the Seal of Solomon (see Hexagram).

In Ancient Greece, it was called the Pentalpha, being geometrically composed of five A's. Unlike earlier civilisations,
the Greeks did not generally attribute other symbolic meanings to the letters of their alphabet, but certain symbols became connected with Greek letter shapes or positions (eg Gammadion, Alpha-Omega).

To the Gnostics, the pentagram was the 'Blazing Star'.

For the Druids, it was a symbol of Godhead.

In Egypt, it was a symbol of the 'underground womb'.

The Pagan Celts ascribed the pentagram to the underground goddess Morrigan.

Medieval Christians attributed the pentagram to the Five Wounds of Christ.

The Christian Emperor Constantine I used the pentagram, together with the chi-rho symbol in his seal and amulet.

In the legend of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, the pentagram was Sir Gawain's glyph, inscribed in gold on his shield, symbolising the five knightly virtues.

In Medieval times, the 'Endless Knot' was a symbol of Truth and was a protection against demons. It was used as personal protection and to guard windows and doors.

The pentagram with one point upwards symbolised summer; with two points upwards, it was a sign for winter.

During the long period of the Inquisition, the pentagram was
seen to symbolise a Goat's Head. In the purge on witches, the horned god Pan became equated with the Devil (a Christian concept) and the pentagram, for the first time in history became a symbol of 'evil' and was called the Witch's Foot.

In the emergence of Hermeticism, graphical symbolism became very important. The concept of the microcosmic world of Man as analogous to the macrocosm, the greater univese of spirit and elemental matter is a part of traditional occult teaching in both western and eastern philosophies.
"As above, so below";

The pentagram, the 'Star of the Microcosm', symbolised Man within the microscosm, representing in analogy the Macrocosmic universe.

The upright pentagram bears some resemblance to the shape of man with his legs and arms outstretched; indeed an illustration attributed to Agrippa or to Tycho Brae (1582) illustrates the similarity of proportion in this image, showing the five planets and the moon at the centre point - the genitalia.

There are other illustrations of the period by Robert Fludd and
Leonardo da Vinci showing geometrical relationships of man to the universe.

Later, the pentagram came to be symbolic of the relationship
of the head to the four limbs and hence of the pure concentrated essence of anything (or the spirit) to the four traditional elements of matter. - [Quintessence]

In Freemasonry, Man as Microprosopus was associated with the five-pointed Seal of Solomon. The symbol was used, interlaced and upright for the sitting Master of the Lodge. The geometric properties and structure of the Endless Knot were appreciated and symbolically incorporated into the 72 degree angle of the compasses.

The womens' branch of freemasonry uses the five pointed 'Eastern Star' as its emblem. Each point commemorates a heroine of biblical lore.

No graphical illustration of any association of the pentagram with evil appears until the nineteenth century. Eliphas Levi illustrates the upright pentagram of microcosmic man beside an inverted pentagram with the goat's head of Baphomet.

In ritual magick the sign has long been used as a ritual flourish of the athame to symbolise invoking or banishing in respect to elemental associations.

In the 1940's Gerald Gardner adopted the pentagram with two points upward as the sigil of second degree initiation in the newly emergent, neo-pagan rituals of witchcraft, later to become known as Wicca. The one-point upward pentagram together with the upright triangle symbolised third degree initiation.

The pentagram was also inscribed on the altar pentacle, it's
points symbolising the three aspects of the Goddess plus the two aspects of the God.

It was not until the late 1960's that the pentagram again became an amuletic symbol to be worn and has since then become firmly established as a common neo-pagan and wiccan symbol, acquiring many aspects of mystique and associations that are today often considered to be ancient folk-lore !

Nevertheless, the potency of a symbol has more to do with its associations and its commonality than with its antiquity and the pentagram today is ubiquitous amongst neo-pagans.
The site is not a Wicca site, but rather a spiritiality site. It deals in spirituality from Christian, to Wiccan, to Buddist, etc. The article is located here: http://www.spiritual.com.au/articles/witchcraft/pentagram_history.htm

I liked Captain Planet as a kid too. Its a bit too cheezy for me now, but there are still a few episodes that the content they dealt with, I really was happy they took a stand. For instance, there was an episode about puppy mills. What kid show talks about puppy mills? So though its full of cheese, it was still a pretty good show.

[inkspot]

What about the concept of the verse I just quoted?
I know, that's why I was asking. Which one is right? Sorry, Siren, I should move this to a new Thread, and if anyone has any answers, I will.

[Gryphon]

okay well, think about it this way, didnt God punish King David for the whole thing with Bathsheeba? He took away his son and if that isnt punishment i dont know what is.

[inked]

The whole enchilada:

Atlantic Monthly Wicca reference:

http://jbburnett.com/resources/atlmo-goddesses/atl-mo-allen-goddesses.html

[inkspot]

okay well, think about it this way, didnt God punish King David for the whole thing with Bathsheeba? He took away his son and if that isnt punishment i dont know what is.
This was before Christ died for us, though. You got the whole Ananais and Saphira thing in the New Testament, but that punishment wasn't really intended to teach them anything -- they were dead -- it was to teach the other believers ...

[Gryphon]

But the verse i quoted was in Revelation. Wow im confused. Maybe Ephinie has a point... I'd have to study it further.

[inkspot]

We know God disciplines His children; Scripture says so. But we've also been taught that on the cross, Jesus bore the "punishment" for our sins -- Isaiah says "the chastisement of our peace was upon Him." The Message Bible interprets it this way, "But it was our sins that did that to him, that ripped and tore and crushed him—our sins! He took the punishment, and that made us whole" (Isaiah 53:5).

Once Jesus took the punishment for our sins, we were released from that part of it. Now, when we stray, I do believe God sometimes steps in to move us back toward Him, and that would be the discipline your verse in Revelation referred to.

So discipline is not always punishment. Discipline is more of a guide, a sign or help to point you back the right way, because you can discipline yourself, but "punishing" yourself would mean there was something wrong with you, mentally or emotionally. But self-discipline is a good thing.

[echoscot]

But here goes. You make reference to living in Florida. Orlando, by any chance? I just moved from there and have several friends I used to work with. Some of whom were Wicca. many were "closeted" about it because they know I am a Christian. But I knew enough about Wicca to recognize the signs and I let them know, Hey I don't reject you as a person.

Anywaay, just wondering if perhaps we had met.

Funny story,

One of my Wicca freinds and i were having (as usual with us) the great religious discussions about Christianity vs Wicca and pseudo-Christian cult groups. As we walked out to start another show, I giggled then said, "have you noticed that everyone is giving us a wide berth because we are talking about RELIGION?"

She started laughing as she looked, sure enough people were skulking in every direction.

Anyway, thank you for having the courage to discuss and show on here.

I hope you understand that I do think Wicca is evil and you will burn in Hell for all eternity, but I do so with the deepest love and Christian charity. LOL

That was sarcasm for anyone that missed it.

On a serious note. I hope maybe we have also given you some insight to the foundations of reason as to our holding to our faith.

Some very knowledgeable and charitable people have posted here and seem to have done a tremendous job as usual, POTW and the two inks, for example.

And I do pray that maybe you have seen a glimpse of the Christ we believe in through these things, I know he has seen you and loves you deeply. i do pray that you would be drawn back to Him. That is my selfish request. I do not disrespect you for your decisions. Ultimately we are each responsible only for ourselves. I can only give account for what I have done and said. Sometimes that brings me great shame, and I pray that God can work through my failings and mistakes.

Take care. :cool:

[Siren]

Thanks echoshot. And no, I don't live in Orlando. Rather closer to the East coast of FL.

[Gryphon]

Hey Siren, i still have a question.

Dont all Wiccans believe in diffrent things?

Dont fear, this really is just a general question. Sometimes it seems that all Wiccans say diffrent things and it gets confusing. :p

[chuam8919]

This is what I am refering to...

Exodus 21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

"maidservent" not "bride".
So can I sell my daughter as a maidservent? This is what I mean. There are practices in the Bible that are no longer practiced due to moral reforms and laws.I haven't read all replies to this yet but I'll just post my opinion. First off, and pardon the temporal caps but, A MAIDSERVANT IS NOWHERE CLOSE TO BEING A BRIDE!!!!!! A maidservant was a female slave! Is a slave a bride? No, because there was also a part of a Mosaic law that stated that if a guy was to marry his female slave, she was no longer a slave.

Secondly, you're missing the big 'IF'. "And if a man..."

[chuam8919]

Well, what was said in the Old Testament was mainly about Jewish law and had other things in it that aren't practiced here today. We Christians mainly go by the New Testament, as the Old Testament is filled with just stories and Jewish law, etc. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the OT should be skipped over, just not as thoroughly looked into as the New Testament. Catch my drift? :confused: I just don't want any more arguments to occur here.Just to make a quick re-clarification (for the benefit of others). The Old Testament was not mainly about Jewish law. It contains only the Mosaic law from Exodus to Deutoronomy. Many books of the Old Testament were historical, and many more are prophetical, with many references to Christ's Second Coming.

As a sidenote, in my opinion the Old Testament should be investigated on equal grounds with the New Testament. Why? For the quite simple reason that to understand quite a bit of Revelation, the Old Testament must be investigated (refer to the forum posts on Revelation as well as the forum posts on Bible prophecy).

[echoscot]

When using phrases like that it can be dangerous. Yes, "we Christians" believe the truth and veracity of the New Testament and the hope that is spelled out there. However, without the understanding of the Old Testament, which is much more than just some Jewish laws, we would never understand the Hope we have in the New Testament. Paul and the other writers of the New Testament predicate their statments on an awareness and understanding of the Old Testament, or the Scriptures as they referred to them. Even Jesus, when asked about the laws said, "not one iota of the law shall be changed because I have come." If we do not understand the Law and the Prophets, we cannot understand who He is in the fulfillment of such things. So the long and short of it is that there are many of us "we Christians" who do not disregard the Old Testament and study it carefully with the knowledge and hope of the Fulfillment through Christ.

Scot

[echoscot]

Thanks echoshot. And no, I don't live in Orlando. Rather closer to the East coast of FL.

I grew up on the North side of Orlando, Altamonte Springs, if you know where that is.

I'm sure, especially being Wicca, you are familiar with Casa Dega (Did I spell that right?) I know some people who live there that I used to work with at Disney.

Just neat to know someone from my area.....I miss Florida even with all the Hurricanes and stuff :o

[Siren]

Gryphon, yes. Just as each Christian's beliefs can differ from another Christian. I know one Christian who thinks dinosaurs are the biggest scientific hoax on Earth. They don't believe they EVER existed and that all the skeletons and fossils are a fabrication by the scientific community to use to spread the "evil" of evolution.
And I know another Christian who knows dinosaurs existed and even says the Bible references them. Don't ask me where, I forget.
Then I know some Christians who think animals go to Heaven and others who don't feel they have souls.

Wicca is no different. There are basic principles and beliefs all Wiccans share. The belief that everything in nature is sacred and with purpose and it should all be respected. The belief that all things should be done in a circle. And the belief in a Godd and Goddess. However, some Wiccans call their Gods and Goddess by different names. Some follow a more Greek diety line, while others follow an Egyptian. That is not to say Wiccans can believe whatever they want. But the religion is flexible in that sense.

And yes, I know about Casadega. It's Florida's Salem. Been there a few times. Beautiful place. Nice people. Good food.

chuam, I apologize for the wrong terminology. But its still selling a daughter. Something that was legal and not morally looked down upon, and yet Christianity has changed to exclude this once allowed and accepted practice. I hope Christianity's views that witchcraft is evil and Satanic would also change. Not to accept it, simply to respect another religion without accusing it of something it is not.

[echoscot]

Thank you for the information you have provided. I know we disagree on a lot, but for the most part, this thread has stayed fairly congenial and I know a lot of effort goes to you. Thank you for not flaring up in defensiveness when we have disagreed with you. Thank you for realizing that we are capable of carrying on conversations about these differences without blasting each other. I have not been so successful in other threads, and unfortunately have lost my temper right back at people who seem to have knee-jerked to my objections. :)

[Siren]

I tend to be an easygoing person with very few temper flairs. I completely lay all credit to that on my meditation. I'm still a normal human being with moments of anger and frustration, but I see little point in arging religion. Its a word-war that will never be won by either side.
It hurts me when people say my religion is evil and annoys me when they say I'm not. I guess I'm an all or nothing gal. If you think my beliefs are Satanic, then I would have to be a Satanist. But I guess some just rather not to try feel they are flaming me (no pun intended). I know my religion doesn't involve Satan, Hell, or evil. But I can't make someone else see that. I just live my life as I see fit. I will try and educate others about it when they are willing to listen, but will never expect them to agree or believe what I say. And then I simply move on.

[Gryphon]

It hurts me when people say my religion is evil and annoys me when they say I'm not. I guess I'm an all or nothing gal. If you think my beliefs are Satanic, then I would have to be a Satanist. But I guess some just rather not to try feel they are flaming me (no pun intended). I know my religion doesn't involve Satan, Hell, or evil. But I can't make someone else see that. I just live my life as I see fit. I will try and educate others about it when they are willing to listen, but will never expect them to agree or believe what I say. And then I simply move on.
hahaha, interesting group of people you talk to there, *giggles* sorry, its just, its like people are telling you that you have diabetes but that you're not diabetic. *shakes head*

Anyway, so Wiccan's dont actually believe in the same God and Godess? Hmm, Wicca is sounding more and more like a code of conduct in using witchcraft. Although, I see your point, no two world views are the same although they may be similar.

Okay, next question if you dont mind (I have a few and would like to take it one at a time) Isnt there a "law" of some sorts in Wicca that states you can cast any spell as long as you dont do harm? If so, what dictates what's harmful?

[LifeMaiden]

Somewhere on this thread a person mentioned casting a spell of sorts against another person. I have read that even in Wicca, it is considered not a good thing to cast ANY spell against someone in the attempt to bring harm to them, however small or large. My interpretation of Wicca is that it is about harmony with nature and that there is an emphasis on the knowledge of herbs to cure and to assist ailments...and herbs have been used in the context of Christianity to heal as well I believe. I thought that Wicca appealed to a lot of women because of its emphasis on goddess worship and Gaia, the Mother Earth.

[Siren]

There is the Wiccan Rede.
"Do what you will, but harm no one."

And the Three Fold Law.
"Whatever you do, good or bad, will come back to you, three times stronger."

So these coincide with one another. Wiccans as a whole are good people. We don't seek out to put curses on others. We feel its generally not a thing to do. However, there are exceptions. And "harm" can be seen two different ways from two different sides.
Example, say I have a stalker. To protect myself, I cast a spell on the stalker to have them lose interest in me. Am I truely harming the person by doing that? He may think I am. But I feel I am helping him and I. I'm not casting a spell to cause him to be physically harmed, but to simply "get over" me.
A spell like this, is one of the few I would cast on a person without their consent. Its generally poor form and dangerous in Wicca to cast spells on people without consent. However, exceptions can be made when it comes to protecting one self from harm and as long as the spell isn't overpowering the reason for it. Casting a spell for him to lose interest is generally safe. Casting a spell to try and cause them bodily harm is dangerous for the caster, sometimes even more so. Due to the three fold law. So its about making the right decision. There is no one "Good Book" of Wicca. No "Wiccan Bible" so to speak. There are 1000s of Wiccan books by all sorts of great authors, but its generally up to each person to make their own educated decision. So in essence, the spell caster dictates what is harmful. And by that, its common sense.
The major exception to casting spells without permission is on pets, of course. There are many healing and protection spells designed for pets.

Also, though we may prey to different Gods and Goddess, when you look at them at face value, they are very much the same. A big difference between worshipping one god and worshipping a whole mess of them is how they work.
The Christian God is ALL good. While Satan, who isn't a god, is all bad. God works just fine alone. And He does well for Himself.
With Pagan gods, its not so black and white. They all need eachother for balance. Just as in nature, prey need predator, plants need sunlight, and the earth needs water, they are connected. There can be no Goddess without God and vice versa. And most Wiccans worship Mother Earth/Gia/Gaea. And God.

And Wicca is popular with women, but so to with men. There are priests and priestess. There are many men in Wicca. And being many of Wiccan traditions are Druid based...most druids were men.

Currently over 80% of medicines we take get some or all their ingedients from plants. That said, many medicines and herbal remedies used today were discovered by medicine women and men. And Wiccans use these herbs to this day for their spells, remedies, etc. Actually there is a shop I visit for all my supplies (that I can't find myself). Its the most awesome cliche magick shop I've ever seen. All their dried ingriedents in glass jars with old looking labels. Labels like, "Dragon's Scales" and "Wolfsbane" :D I get tickled pink walking in there everytime.

About being in harmony with nature...When I gather my own herbs and supplies from nature, I take the time to always thank Gaia and whatever it is I am getting my supplies from. For instance, for my rain spell. I needed a branch from a specific tree. Conviently, I had the tree in my backyard. I knelt, said a pray of thanks, poured water at the base of the tree and took a small branch. I exchanged the water for a branch. Its about respect and being grateful for what She gives me.

IceMaiden, I was the one who mentioned casting a spell against someone without their permission. It was a financial spell. A spell to let them have enough money to substain a normal life, but no windfall to be able to retain a lawyer and try to fight for a child he abused. I rather not discuss the whole thing again. But I did go more in depth in that previous post...somewhere on this thread.

[LifeMaiden]

I'm not one of the members who thinks that wicca is evil nor do I believe that if you practice it, this makes one evil or against God or whatever. I accidently misread the thing about the spell you casted. My apologies. I thought it was a spell generated to harm someone.

[Siren]

Thanks IceMaiden for taking the time and your understanding. And no need for apologies. :)

[chuam8919]

chuam, I apologize for the wrong terminology. But its still selling a daughter. Something that was legal and not morally looked down upon, and yet Christianity has changed to exclude this once allowed and accepted practice. I hope Christianity's views that witchcraft is evil and Satanic would also change. Not to accept it, simply to respect another religion without accusing it of something it is not.Ever heard of the saying "old habits die hard"? Your analogy is not too strong because sons were also sold into slavery if their parents were not able to support them. However, think on this. If God actually considered it acceptable, then why would He have commanded Moses to tell the people that on the seventh year, the slaves were to be uncoditionally let go? In those times, it was not unusual for the rich to keep the servants for life. Yet with the Israelites, God wanted them to be an exception and forced them to let the slaves go on the seventh year.

Siren, you keep implying that you think Christians think that witches are evil. That's a bit of an over-generalization. I am wary of them, but I do not think they are evil. Witchcraft may think that nature is the giver of power, etc. But essentially it is still Naturalism except that worship of it is more in-depth. That is also a basis line upon which Evolution is based upon. That nature basically is all there is. Naturalism is what is being fought against. The premise of Christian belief is that God created nature, and it is God we should worship. Naturalism is the opposite. It is the worship of the creation.

To create a better analogy, let's talk about a computer. If you want to know everything there is to know about the functions and programming and all the intricacies of the computer, do you look to the computer for the answers? Or do you ask the one who put everything together? That is the issue that is what is being discussed essentially.

Personally for me, my reason for not accepting witchcraft is pretty simple. From what I've read in Bible prophecy, witchcraft will get its high point.

Besides, from what I've heard from people who converted from witchcraft to Christianity, drawing back from witchcraft is nasty business once you have gone deeply in it. That's another reason why I'm wary of witchcraft. Because of the testimonies of those who withdraw from it.

[Siren]

I'm not implying all Christians think Wiccans are evil. Rather, it says right in the Bible that witchcraft is evil. And a few people have already given their opinions, that they think witchcraft is evil, but not me. Which is kinda odd to me. But I'm not going to argue someone's opinion.

And no, Wiccans do not worship the creation, but rather the Creator. Which would be God and Goddess. We RESPECT the creation, because it is part of our God and Goddess and thus, a part of us. So when I take a branch from a tree, I do not bow to it and wish for its forgivness for harming it, but rather, offer a gift to it as a token of my respect for Her creation.

And I was Christian before I turned to Wicca. The reason being, since I was a child, I always had beliefs, about nature, animals, and devinity. I never had a name for it. I would talk to youth pastors, pastors, fellow church goers, etc. And get the same thing. 100% negetive feelings about. Even told it was Satanic to think that all animals have souls and go to Heaven. That the Earth wasn't just a big rock that God created, but a living being and it was female. I was told such thoughts were demonic. This is before the internet. Before I even knew the word Wicca. I had these beliefs. They have always been in me. Just never a word to describe it. Then an online friend, after several years of talking with her, came out of the "broom closet" to me, so to speak. And told me she was Wicca. She explained a bit of it to me and I filed it away in my mind thinking I forgot about it. A year later, Wicca came to mind again, for no reason to which I can explain and I researched it. And found all my childhood beliefs...those "Satanic" ones, had a name. And it was Wicca. Maybe if less Christians chastize people when they have opposing beliefs, and rather seek to find a reason for them, so they can STAY within Christianity, maybe less people would turn away from it. I felt very shunned when I talked about my beliefs. I was excluded from Bible study groups, my classmates didn't want to work with me when they heard the gossip around the church that I had "Satanic" beliefs. I know that was just 3 churches that did that to me...yes, 3, because I kept trying to find a Christian church that wouldn't tell me I was Satanic...I know they aren't the majority, but you know what? After feeling like I was in a Salam Witch Trial, I was quite done with Christianity. That's why when I see how some people react to me being Wicca..."it's evil! it's satanic!", it just kinda cements my knowledge that I feel better in Wicca then I ever did in Christianity. I think perhaps, people should first decide how they will approach others of different beliefs, so they can actually convince them Christianity is the way to go. Because the "it's evil!" approach really backfired for them. I would never say Christianity was evil, wrong, or the like. Its a good religion. But I'm not out to convince the world that Wicca is right for everyone either.

[echoscot]

I'm not implying all Christians think Wiccans are evil. Rather, it says right in the Bible that witchcraft is evil. And a few people have already given their opinions, that they think witchcraft is evil, but not me. Which is kinda odd to me. But I'm not going to argue someone's opinion.

And no, Wiccans do not worship the creation, but rather the Creator. Which would be God and Goddess. We RESPECT the creation, because it is part of our God and Goddess and thus, a part of us. So when I take a branch from a tree, I do not bow to it and wish for its forgivness for harming it, but rather, offer a gift to it as a token of my respect for Her creation.

And I was Christian before I turned to Wicca. The reason being, since I was a child, I always had beliefs, about nature, animals, and devinity. I never had a name for it. I would talk to youth pastors, pastors, fellow church goers, etc. And get the same thing. 100% negetive feelings about. Even told it was Satanic to think that all animals have souls and go to Heaven. That the Earth wasn't just a big rock that God created, but a living being and it was female. I was told such thoughts were demonic. This is before the internet. Before I even knew the word Wicca. I had these beliefs. They have always been in me. Just never a word to describe it. Then an online friend, after several years of talking with her, came out of the "broom closet" to me, so to speak. And told me she was Wicca. She explained a bit of it to me and I filed it away in my mind thinking I forgot about it. A year later, Wicca came to mind again, for no reason to which I can explain and I researched it. And found all my childhood beliefs...those "Satanic" ones, had a name. And it was Wicca. Maybe if less Christians chastize people when they have opposing beliefs, and rather seek to find a reason for them, so they can STAY within Christianity, maybe less people would turn away from it. I felt very shunned when I talked about my beliefs. I was excluded from Bible study groups, my classmates didn't want to work with me when they heard the gossip around the church that I had "Satanic" beliefs. I know that was just 3 churches that did that to me...yes, 3, because I kept trying to find a Christian church that wouldn't tell me I was Satanic...I know they aren't the majority, but you know what? After feeling like I was in a Salam Witch Trial, I was quite done with Christianity. That's why when I see how some people react to me being Wicca..."it's evil! it's satanic!", it just kinda cements my knowledge that I feel better in Wicca then I ever did in Christianity. I think perhaps, people should first decide how they will approach others of different beliefs, so they can actually convince them Christianity is the way to go. Because the "it's evil!" approach really backfired for them. I would never say Christianity was evil, wrong, or the like. Its a good religion. But I'm not out to convince the world that Wicca is right for everyone either.

I can understand your confusion. On a lighter note, your revelation that you discovered Wicca via the Internet might lead some to burn their computers. LOL.

Allow me to clarify a couple of points for you. I can only speak for myself, obviously, not all of Christianity as a whole. I do not believe true Christianity to be a "religion" as such. I believe it is a relationship. As a matter of fact, from personal experience, I know it to be a growing relationship. I do not hold to the Ying/Yang theory, that there is a male/female or God/goddess. You are correct that the Bible warns against witchcraft for a very good reason. God is not the only source of supernatural power. He gave power to the angels, some of them chose to disobey him seeking His place instead. That warning is given, not to punish, but protect us from those powers.

There is a strong distinction between what a person chooses and does and who they are as a person. It is true that choices help to shape and mold character, but they do not define it, anymore than diseases do. I believe someone earlier used an example of diabetes. Just because someone is diagnosed as diabetic does not define who they are as a person. I believe, based on scripture, that your involvement in Wicca came because of deception. Actually an ages old one. Satan's biggest downfall was trying to take God's place, usurp the throne, so to speak. He is continually doing that. You said you had questions to which you couldn't find answers, so I believe he provided some that you wanted to hear. Now, because you have chosen to follow that path in no way yet defines your personhood. It is a matter of choices that you have made, that have helped to determine what future opinions and choices you may make. I can and do differentiate that from who you are as a person. If I came upon you in dire need, knowing that you had made these choices, I certainly would not walk by on the other side, but would not let my knowledge of your choices interfere with my decision to help you. I would still care very much about you as a person and as the eternal being that God created. I hope you can understand the difference there. It is often oversimplified in the statement, "hate the sin, but love the sinner." I do not believe you are a Satan worshipper. That would define someone who, knowingly and deliberately, turns on God while recognizing His existence and allies himself, knowingly against Him. You most certainly HAVE NOT done these things. I do believe you have been deceived and are being used. It may even feel good to you and bring some temporary beneficial help to you. As long as you do not go back to the One who gave His life for you. That is all that matters.

Animals: Let me first state, I agree with you in that I believe some animals have souls as well. I am a Baptist, and the majority of Baptists do not agree with me. I have sat through countless sermons about how a soul is what differentiates man from the animals. I can scripturally back up my argument: I believe that in Genesis, God made man in His image. That is the differentiating factor. As a matter of fact, if you read Genesis 9. In the Noahdic Covenant, God says He will hold animals accountable for the innocent shedding of blood. If they do not have souls, how can they be held accountable? Now, this is purely my own observations, I believe there is an order or caste system to the animal kingdom. I don't believe all animals are eternally created. I believe that as you go up the complexity and order you find more and more that can establish relationship, display emotion and actually demonstrate short term reasoning skills. There are denominations that believe in animals, the Episcopaleans for example. I went to an Episcopalean church for about four years.

Ultimately, let me leave you with this. I would like to know what would happen if you spent just one month seeking Jesus with your heart. I am not, at present advocating joining a specific church, just what ever you believe you need to do to really meet and have a relationship with Him. Put the Goddess aside and see if there is any change. Meet Him, talk with Him, learn about Him. See if He is really the same as this goddess you worship. I would be curious of the results. As I have said before, you are not the first Wiccan that I have met. I first discovered it 20 years ago in the Navy. One of my rack mates was Wiccan and he and I became good friends. We talked at length and I learned a great many things about it. I began to recognize, however, that the goddess he worshipped was not the same as the God I serve. Over the last several years, I have met others who have believed much the same way. I would be curious from your side what would happen, if you did that as well.

Either way, Peace

Scot

[chuam8919]

And no, Wiccans do not worship the creation, but rather the Creator. Which would be God and Goddess. We RESPECT the creation, because it is part of our God and Goddess and thus, a part of us. So when I take a branch from a tree, I do not bow to it and wish for its forgivness for harming it, but rather, offer a gift to it as a token of my respect for Her creation.Personally, that reminds me a bit of the kind of arguments that had taken place in the Mary thread.

And I was Christian before I turned to Wicca. The reason being, since I was a child, I always had beliefs, about nature, animals, and devinity. I never had a name for it. I would talk to youth pastors, pastors, fellow church goers, etc. And get the same thing. 100% negetive feelings about. Even told it was Satanic to think that all animals have souls and go to Heaven. That the Earth wasn't just a big rock that God created, but a living being and it was female. I was told such thoughts were demonic.
Well, I'm not going to say I pity you, but you sure got a poor sampling.

Animals: In my opinion, animals don't have the kind of "free choice to follow God" kind of soul. (And besides, I'm actually starting to get a bit irritated at the loose usage of the word soul by Christians. The Bible has stated in Genesis that Body(dust) + Breath of Life(spirit) = living soul (living being). )
And it's a pity I can't find the thread 'Ghosts' where I have listed quite a number of Bible texts that goes directly against many major religions. That, unlike some other religions, the Bible does not advocate the idea that the "soul" goes to heaven right after death. I guess you can start to see where I'm going with this one.

Earth: From what the Bible says, the reaction of the earth upon Jesus' Second Coming describes the earth almost as if it were a living thing. However, probably the reason why they went against that idea was that the belief you hold is basically: the earth is like a human being, able to feel, get angry, etc. They are against that because there really is not a bit of Scriptural evidence to hold that belief. It's also the same with plants. Some criticize the command "you shall not murder" because plants and grains are also "killed" when you eat them. They try to treat it the same as killing an animal. Actually, that is not true. In the Bible, plants are not described as having a "spirit" like that of humans and animals. They also resist the thought that the earth is female because there's not Scriptural proof, and there really no characteristic of earth that describes it as female. And that also brings up a good point. How does Wicca define the earth as female if it does not have the defining physical characteristics? (Not to sound crude, but you know what I mean)

Maybe if less Christians chastize people when they have opposing beliefs, and rather seek to find a reason for them, so they can STAY within Christianity, maybe less people would turn away from it.I'll just give the blatant answer since I'm really not good with words. You cannot nor can you ever reconcile Wiccan beliefs with Christianity, not even till the heavens pass away for all eternity. That was really strong, but it was just for the purpose of driving it in. I can tell I'm really getting unpopular with this, but it's a truth I cannot hold back. Siren, what causes Christianity to reject, for example Buddhism, as a true religion? It holds many truths. Yet why is it also considered to be irreconciliable with Christianity? Why does Christianity consider itself to be the true religion? That's what you have to answer in detail before proposing the two to be reconciled. (Oh, before anyone gets any idea, my purpose is not to tear down Wicca or Siren, but just to point out the irreconciliable points of Wicca with Christianity) Siren, you have already mentioned this point of Wicca at least three times that directly contradict Scripture. "You shall have no other gods before me." As you have repeated a few times, Wicca also consists of the belief that there are a number of gods and godesses. Christianity strictly forbids that. It breaks the First Commandment.

You have proposed that there be some kind of compromise in Christianity to accept Wicca. Tell that to the first Christians and you would truly know the meaning of being shunned. Christianity did not explode in true membership through compromise. When I say true membership, I mean the real Christians. Not the nominal ones who just take up the name while not actually being one.

I felt very shunned when I talked about my beliefs. I was excluded from Bible study groups, my classmates didn't want to work with me when they heard the gossip around the church that I had "Satanic" beliefs. I know that was just 3 churches that did that to me...yes, 3, because I kept trying to find a Christian church that wouldn't tell me I was Satanic...I know they aren't the majority, but you know what? After feeling like I was in a Salam Witch Trial, I was quite done with Christianity. That's why when I see how some people react to me being Wicca..."it's evil! it's satanic!", it just kinda cements my knowledge that I feel better in Wicca then I ever did in Christianity. I think perhaps, people should first decide how they will approach others of different beliefs, so they can actually convince them Christianity is the way to go. Because the "it's evil!" approach really backfired for them. I would never say Christianity was evil, wrong, or the like. Its a good religion. But I'm not out to convince the world that Wicca is right for everyone either.You have my sympathy with their coldness, but you really have made two grave errors with regards to Christianity. The first is that you looked for a church that accepted your ideas. If you find a church that does do it, then they have compromised and lowered the strict standards the Bible specifically set. It is not for the Bible to lower its standards, but for you to raise your standards to meet it. The second error was that you assumed that just because a Christian acts towards you a bad way, that Christianity isn't so good. You should never do that. Christians are never the best to emulate. It is Jesus :) . Christians are full of faults, but they have always pointed to the one true Person to emulate; Jesus Christ.

[Siren]

I never said I was looking for a church that shared my beliefs, rather one that accepted me as who I was without judgment. That is all I wanted. Not to be called Satanic, where they tried scare tactics with me to emotionally beat the beliefs I had out of me. Rather a sit down explaination on maybe why I feel that way. Not "It's evil!". I thought 3rd time was the charm, but instead, I had hypocrites preach that only God can judge and then tell me I'm a "Satanist". I never stated I wanted to find a church with the same beliefs, just a logical explaination why perhaps I felt that way.

Also, being a prior Christian who did try and find the way of Jesus, I do not see how trying again will help. I am happy with Wicca and I would never ask or even suggest for someone to turn away from Jesus and praise Goddess. Never. It is their choice. As free will, and living in a free country.

And I actually have done some reasearch on animals having souls in Christianity and found proof otherwise in the Bible itself.
"The Bible teaches that "all flesh shall see the salvation of God" (Lk.3:6) and that "all the living things in creation - everything that lives in the air, and on the ground, and under the ground, and in the sea" will praise Yahweh and the Lamb" (Rev.5:13). God's care and love extends to even the humble sparrow (Lk.12:6) and He has promised that He will restore all living things (Ac.3:21; Eph.1:10).

http://www.ourchurch.com/member/w/w_lasalle/

Also this site: http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/animals-heaven.html

In Revelation 5:8-13 all creatures recognize Jesus as the Savior of the world and praise God right along with redeemed men.

In Psalm Psalm 145:-9-10,13,15-21 God loves all His creation and has made plans for all His children and the lesser creatures to enjoy His eternal Kingdom.

Romans 8:19 says that the lesser creatures await Christ's return to redeem the sons of God so they, too, will be released from physical death to eternal life.

So if the Bible says that even animals praise God...then how can some empty shell not go to Heaven? How can an empty creature, to which it is said, God created, not be endowed with a soul? I can't imagine something can praise God and not have a soul. Also, it states "creatures" and "animals", not "pets" and "animals that have touched human lives" It makes no sense to me that they can do one but not the other. I'm not saying you HAVE to believe this way, but just, refer to the scripture to which you believe and decide for yourself.

And when I brought this "evidence" to my church, I was told I was taking it out of context. Here I TRIED to find my beliefs in Christianity, and rather then explain what the scripture REALLY meant, they just told me, "Nope, you're wrong."

[echoscot]

I never said I was looking for a church that shared my beliefs, rather one that accepted me as who I was without judgment. That is all I wanted. Not to be called Satanic, where they tried scare tactics with me to emotionally beat the beliefs I had out of me. Rather a sit down explaination on maybe why I feel that way. Not "It's evil!". I thought 3rd time was the charm, but instead, I had hypocrites preach that only God can judge and then tell me I'm a "Satanist". I never stated I wanted to find a church with the same beliefs, just a logical explaination why perhaps I felt that way.

Also, being a prior Christian who did try and find the way of Jesus, I do not see how trying again will help. I am happy with Wicca and I would never ask or even suggest for someone to turn away from Jesus and praise Goddess. Never. It is their choice. As free will, and living in a free country.

And I actually have done some reasearch on animals having souls in Christianity and found proof otherwise in the Bible itself.
"The Bible teaches that "all flesh shall see the salvation of God" (Lk.3:6) and that "all the living things in creation - everything that lives in the air, and on the ground, and under the ground, and in the sea" will praise Yahweh and the Lamb" (Rev.5:13). God's care and love extends to even the humble sparrow (Lk.12:6) and He has promised that He will restore all living things (Ac.3:21; Eph.1:10).

http://www.ourchurch.com/member/w/w_lasalle/

Also this site: http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/animals-heaven.html

In Revelation 5:8-13 all creatures recognize Jesus as the Savior of the world and praise God right along with redeemed men.

In Psalm Psalm 145:-9-10,13,15-21 God loves all His creation and has made plans for all His children and the lesser creatures to enjoy His eternal Kingdom.

Romans 8:19 says that the lesser creatures await Christ's return to redeem the sons of God so they, too, will be released from physical death to eternal life.

So if the Bible says that even animals praise God...then how can some empty shell not go to Heaven? How can an empty creature, to which it is said, God created, not be endowed with a soul? I can't imagine something can praise God and not have a soul. Also, it states "creatures" and "animals", not "pets" and "animals that have touched human lives" It makes no sense to me that they can do one but not the other. I'm not saying you HAVE to believe this way, but just, refer to the scripture to which you believe and decide for yourself.

And when I brought this "evidence" to my church, I was told I was taking it out of context. Here I TRIED to find my beliefs in Christianity, and rather then explain what the scripture REALLY meant, they just told me, "Nope, you're wrong."


Wow, those are quite a few scriptures. Thank you I will go research them. I hope you also got my point about differentiating who you are and accepting you from disagreeing with choices that you might make, or even diseaes you might have if we go back to the diabetes thing. :D

PS I also completely understand about churches too quickly labelling people as Satanic and arguing instead of loving and accepting. Please accept my apologies for that, for it casts a taint on all Christians when some act that way. :o

[Siren]

You're welcome. And I understand what you were saying.

Also, I know those 3 churches are not the majority, but I see the beginning of their attitudes here sometimes. "If its not Christian, its evil.", kinda thinking. And I know Christians work to bring everyone to God and Jesus, but that kind of attitude is what turns so many people away. When a Christian is trying to get a non-Christian to convert, its never a good idea to start on such a negative point.

[chuam8919]

I never said I was looking for a church that shared my beliefs, rather one that accepted me as who I was without judgment.Apparently you didn't read my post properly I said: The first is that you looked for a church that accepted your ideas. If you find a church that does do it, then they have compromised and lowered the strict standards the Bible specifically set. It is not for the Bible to lower its standards, but for you to raise your standards to meet it.

That is all I wanted. Not to be called Satanic, where they tried scare tactics with me to emotionally beat the beliefs I had out of me. Rather a sit down explaination on maybe why I feel that way. Not "It's evil!".Like I said, you cannot expect Christians to react the way you want them to. That's really unrealistic.

I thought 3rd time was the charm, but instead, I had hypocrites preach that only God can judge and then tell me I'm a "Satanist". I never stated I wanted to find a church with the same beliefs, just a logical explaination why perhaps I felt that way.Then you really had a pathetic sampling at least on your side. You also made an error with understanding what the message of not judging someone means.

First off, the message of 'only God can judge' is simply this: "Only God can pass rewards or punishments for what a person does."
It's a different thing when they keep calling you a satanist. All they can do is label you. They are not able to deal out anything against you unless God allows it. In the courthouse, passing a judgement means passing a final verdict about what to do about the person in the process of judgement. That's what it is so there really is no need to bloat it to applying to the pessimism towards your belief in Wicca.

Secondly, you want a logical explanation as to why you held those beliefs as a child? Well, we both took different paths then. In all honesty, I did hold your same beliefs when I was the same age as you. I came up with reasons that did not have to have Wicca explain it. Why did you feel as though the earth was a living being? It was because you saw the impacts of what we were doing to the enviornment. Things of nature deteriorates and the earthquakes appear to be earth's shudders to the abuse dealt to it. Why did you feel as though the earth was female? Because you saw beauty in it. Our minds automatically associate things of beauty to being feminine. The beauty of which God put around us for us to enjoy. A beauty that He will restore and make more beautiful after erasing the traces of the harmful influences we have released into His creation.

You don't have to turn to Wicca to get your answers. Wicca is not needed to answer why your beliefs had come about that way as a child. And no, no one (at least not human) told me this if you're wondering about it. These answers were given to me when I inquired, not of people for they hold varying beliefs for various things, but of God. I asked, He answered. Did I turn to Wicca for the answers? No, I turned to the true source of all creation. So to me personally, your arguments for groping towards Wicca for the answers are not legitimate.

Also, being a prior Christian who did try and find the way of Jesus, I do not see how trying again will help. I am happy with Wicca and I would never ask or even suggest for someone to turn away from Jesus and praise Goddess. Never. It is their choice. As free will, and living in a free country.And that is what frustrates me. That attitude. People think that since it's their choice, butt out of their affairs. Well, that does have a consequence. No freedom comes without some price to pay. In this case, if you choose wrongly, you will end up having to stand before the throne of God and have Him read your name in the Book of Condemnation. Yes, it's all about choices, but people keep using the argument that all roads lead to heaven if you are sincere about it. However, you cannot reach the east side of the country by sincerely believing that by going south, you can go east.

And I actually have done some reasearch on animals having souls in Christianity and found proof otherwise in the Bible itself.
"The Bible teaches that "all flesh shall see the salvation of God" (Lk.3:6) and that "all the living things in creation - everything that lives in the air, and on the ground, and under the ground, and in the sea" will praise Yahweh and the Lamb" (Rev.5:13). God's care and love extends to even the humble sparrow (Lk.12:6) and He has promised that He will restore all living things (Ac.3:21; Eph.1:10).All right, with all honesty I feel like pulling my hair out. I now know why they said you took it out of context.

Luke 3:6 uses the greek word σάρξ (sarx). The exact same used in 2Corinthians 7:5, 1Corinthians 7:28, Philippians 1:24 and many other places. In all these places, sarx is indeed translated into 'flesh', but looking at the litany of this word usage, it has almost always been portrayed as either the carnal nature of humans, or meat.

I have read the other texts, but really, nowhere in them do I find one saying that the creatures are the same as those that lived in our earth. I'm really not saying that they won't be. What I am saying is that it really doesn't matter too much. Whether someone's pet gets brought to heaven or not doesn't affect something more major. The judgement of humans. It's not some major matter that you have to get upset about. If they are brought to heaven, then be happy with your pet. If they're not, you can make friends with a crocodile.

[Siren]

I expect Christians, as well as every human being with any moral standing, religious or otherwise, to treat their fellow man and woman with respect.
Labeling me and shunning me is not respect.

And I don't feel I found Wicca. I feel Wicca found me. Like I said, the beliefs were always there. A hurricane was not an act of God to me, but an act of Nature. I had all the same beliefs of Wicca, but no name for it. So I remained a Christian, hiding who I really was and how I really felt to conform. And was never happy. Then I read about Wicca and saw the beliefs to be my own.

My point was, maybe if people stop labelling others and their beliefs as Satanic, maybe more people would turn to Christianity, rather then away from it.

And it is our choice. If there are consequences, then let them deal with it. All you can do is say your peace and move on, before you start sounding like your "shoving it down others throats". That's why I started this thread. To say what Wicca is and what it means to me. Not to say, "Join me." or "Wicca is the only right way to go.".

And if you wish to argue how people come about their beliefs. Most people here are likely raised in Christianity. Their parents were and grandparents. Its most of what they know and feel. But would you still be Christian if you were raised by Hindus? Jews? Buddists? Muslims? Athiests? Wiccans? When my daughter is old enough, I plan to allow her to decide for herself who she is. If anything at all. If she decides to stay within Wicca, I'm ok with that. But if she decides to be Christian, athiest, etc, I'm ok with that to. She's my daughter, I'd love her anyways. My mom raised me to be Christian, we come from a long line of Christians, but I decided to take my life in a different direction, and the result...I saw who my REAL family was. And I feel I'm better for it

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Without discounting your other points, Siren, it's not really a safe assumption that most people on this forum were raised Christian. Even without the international component of this forum, the West is post-Christian these days. Many of the Christians you find here are converts, often by the works of C.S. Lewis. There are also no small number of "rebounds" - people who were raised with a nominal Christian upbringing (i.e. baptised, but never taught, or something similar) and who walked away from the faith, only to return later.

It is neither safe nor accurate to presume that there's a Christian majority in any nation in the world any more.

[chuam8919]

I expect Christians, as well as every human being with any moral standing, religious or otherwise, to treat their fellow man and woman with respect.
Labeling me and shunning me is not respect.Like I said, you sure had bad sampling at your side of the world. So far the sampling that I have received was not that of yours. I agree that you have an expectation. Everyone does. But that is not the cornerstone. The people that partake of the faith are but fishes in the sea. They do not make up the sea :) . To expect mere humans to grant you respect is indeed to high an expectation. The Bible itself has strongly hinted in this matter; that people's respect for one another will not increase as long as this world continues. It will, instead, deteriorate.

And I don't feel I found Wicca. I feel Wicca found me. Like I said, the beliefs were always there. A hurricane was not an act of God to me, but an act of Nature. I had all the same beliefs of Wicca, but no name for it. So I remained a Christian, hiding who I really was and how I really felt to conform. And was never happy. Then I read about Wicca and saw the beliefs to be my own.A hurricane an act of God? Who said that to you? If no one gave you that idea, what made you have that first thought that led you to consider it an act of Nature instead? Nothing evil comes from the Lord. C.S. Lewis had struggled with this and made an eloquent speech on this. Many have asked that question. You were not alone on that matter. Truly, your last statement has shown that you did not find out the two most important prerequisites for a religion to be the only true religion. Firstly, it must not have been formulated by Man. Christianity was not made by Man. It is not something a person came along one day and made it up. Secondly, a true religion has to make the claim that it is the only and absolute truth. Just because a religion has bits of truth in it, does not mean it is the absolute truth. When the Adversary tempted Jesus in the wilderness, he never told a blatant lie. He had always mixed in truth with error. That has always been how he operates.

My point was, maybe if people stop labelling others and their beliefs as Satanic, maybe more people would turn to Christianity, rather then away from it. I agree with that. Nothing will come of this labeling. However, through history, have you ever seen this completely eradicated, Siren? In all parts of the world, there is at least a small amount of prejudice and labeling. In God's Word it gives the sobering prophecy:

[2 Timothy 3:1-4] "But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God"

And it is our choice. If there are consequences, then let them deal with it. All you can do is say your peace and move on, before you start sounding like your "shoving it down others throats". That's why I started this thread. To say what Wicca is and what it means to me. Not to say, "Join me." or "Wicca is the only right way to go.". :) This thread will be short-lived, then. Truly, if this really was your intended purpose, nothing you say will also change anyone's opinions. Then why start this thread in the first place? Really, it is a delusion I have also occasionally placed myself in at times. That is the initial purpose. Unfortunately it often extends beyond that. You end up finding yourself defending your beliefs. That in turn starts to go down the road of a debate that was not intially meant to be one.

And if you wish to argue how people come about their beliefs. Most people here are likely raised in Christianity. Their parents were and grandparents. Its most of what they know and feel. But would you still be Christian if you were raised by Hindus? Jews? Buddists? Muslims? Athiests? Wiccans? When my daughter is old enough, I plan to allow her to decide for herself who she is. If anything at all. If she decides to stay within Wicca, I'm ok with that. But if she decides to be Christian, athiest, etc, I'm ok with that to. She's my daughter, I'd love her anyways. My mom raised me to be Christian, we come from a long line of Christians, but I decided to take my life in a different direction, and the result...I saw who my REAL family was. And I feel I'm better for itI am truly getting upset in this blatant ignorance. Just because a person is raised a Christian does not mean that they will become one. You are a perfect example of that. The state of withdrawing from Christianity is called 'back-sliding'. When a person is raised a Christian and does not comprehend the beliefs of the church properly, they person will fall away from the faith. Those statements are not applicable to those who have found out for themselves why they want to follow the road of Christianity in their parents' footsteps. :)

[Siren]

I started this because I had hoped at least one person who originally was told Wicca was evil, would then see it is simply, another religion. Just like all the others. No more evil then being Jewish or Hindu or Muslim.

And I don't care how long lived it is. Frankly, I am surprised it went THIS long. Not suprised it went so civilly, because my intentions were not to make it otherwise. And I don't feel I need to defend my beliefs. They are my own. I will explain them, certainly, but really, you can counter my beliefs all you want. I will explain them, but I won't waste my time to defend them much or at all for that matter.

And who said a hurricane was evil? Just about every natural disaster is often labeled as a "testement of faith". And there are a lot of Christians who look at natural disasters and weather itself as "acts of God". Even our own law system. If a storm knocks over a tree on your house, its labeled an "act of God" according to the law, not "an act of nature". And I don't know who said Act of God to me. I was a kid then, I can't remember quite that much. But I always felt it was Acts of Nature...no one TOLD me that, it was simply in my heart. Same as all my other beliefs. Just about what everyone told me, my heart contridicted them.

[Wendygirljp]

I am always surprised to see people attempting to differentiate themselves from animals. It is quite humorous, in fact, to me.

The three forms on earth - Animal, Vegetable, Mineral. I am not mineral as I do not "take things for granite" that often. I am not vegetable as I may not be that "firmly rooted", and am no big fan of wearing chlorophyl on the outside of my body. Therefore, I must be an animal of some sort - warm blooded, having the capacity for spontaneous movement and rapid motor responses to stimulation.

The arguments I have heard against being an animal are just as hilarious to me - "chimpanzees never invented a computer!" - So? Why would they want to? "They never build houses or make clothing!" - Again, so? Maybe they can adapt better than the weak, puny human being? And the last one I shall comment on today, "Animals don't have emotions, but live purely by instinct." Now, THAT is funny! Apparently, those who believe that have never been around other animals long enough to see.

What a chuckle! No need to respond or insult. Just making a comment or three.

[LifeMaiden]

I don't think that anyone here in this thread is labelling or shunning you, Siren. A difference of opinion doesn't necessarily account for ostracism. Even if someone believes that wicca is evil or Satanic does not mean they see YOU as evil or Satanic in the same sense that someone can hate the sin, but not the sinner.

When people feel strongly about their beliefs they will share that opinion. For example, in the abortion thread, I am one of the few pro-choice people there, but have learned to respect, accept, and admire the pro-life view, and come to adopt the basic moral principal they have embraced which is that taking the life of the unborn is immoral. Even when I presented my arguments about abortion and keeping it legal, I met with disagreement, and even questioned openly whether they considered me a murderer because of my experience with abortion. But again, one can disapprove of or openly state they feel what I did was wrong, but not hate me for it, nor ostracize or shun me for it.

I don't think anyone here was purposely doing that to you, just disagreeing with you, even very strongly, about your views.

[chuam8919]

I started this because I had hoped at least one person who originally was told Wicca was evil, would then see it is simply, another religion. Just like all the others. No more evil then being Jewish or Hindu or Muslim.Well, let's face it. There are still people of other religions and faiths that believe other religions are evil and fake. Well if your goal was just to make others see Wicca as a religion, you haven't got me. However, all this while and way before this, I did not believe Wicca to be evil. What I do believe is that Wicca, along with New Age, are tools of deception the Devil uses to trick people. Not how you'd want it, I'm sure, but at least you're not going to have me point finger at you and say 'devil worshipper'.

And who said a hurricane was evil? Just about every natural disaster is often labeled as a "testement of faith". And there are a lot of Christians who look at natural disasters and weather itself as "acts of God". Even our own law system. If a storm knocks over a tree on your house, its labeled an "act of God" according to the law, not "an act of nature". And I don't know who said Act of God to me. I was a kid then, I can't remember quite that much. But I always felt it was Acts of Nature...no one TOLD me that, it was simply in my heart. Same as all my other beliefs. Just about what everyone told me, my heart contridicted them.Ah, well the key word here is 'often'. If you find Christians who say that, ignore them. Disasters like earthquakes aren't caused by God or by 'nature'. (Global warming has no effect on earthquakes, btw.) If they just read the beginning chapter of Job, they'd understand.

[inkspot]

I am truly getting upset in this blatant ignorance.
Please throttle back, Chuam. If you really suspect someone of ignorance, it is not a reason to be upset with them, it just means they don't have all the facts. Thank you for toning it down.
:)

I think an animal can be as eternal as a person. As Siren noted, the scriptures portray many beasts giving praise to God. I expect to be reunited with my departed furry friends some day.

[Gryphon]

"A hurricane was not an act of God to me, but an act of Nature."

Question, dont you believe though that Goddess controls nature? :confused:

[chuam8919]

Please throttle back, Chuam. If you really suspect someone of ignorance, it is not a reason to be upset with them, it just means they don't have all the facts. Thank you for toning it down.
:)

I think an animal can be as eternal as a person. As Siren noted, the scriptures portray many beasts giving praise to God. I expect to be reunited with my departed furry friends some day. :) Guess that wasn't so clear. If you kept track with other threads I posted in, then you'd understand better. I was referring to past experiences where people had kept saying that. So I was simply getting upset over the multiple times I came across that statement.

[Siren]

"A hurricane was not an act of God to me, but an act of Nature."

Question, dont you believe though that Goddess controls nature? :confused:

Yes, but my context of that was when I was a child, before I knew Goddess and who She was. So back then, She was simple Nature. Now they are one in the same for me.

[Ephinie]

Yes, but my context of that was when I was a child, before I knew Goddess and who She was. So back then, She was simple Nature. Now they are one in the same for me.So if a hurrican is not an act of God but rather an act of Nature... and now you say that Goddess and Nature are one and the same for you, what is the difference? The gender of what you call divine? Based on your view, isn't a hurrican still a divine act, whether you call it God, Goddess, or Nature? It sounds like semantics to me.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

To grab the ends of a couple of conversation threads here:

Interestingly, Catholic philosopher Peter Kreeft has no difficulty with the idea of beasts in the New Creation. After all, we have them in this creation; why wouldn't we have them in the New Creation? Of course, the issue of whether any particular animal is in the New Creation is open to a lot of question, since there's question about whether animals in this creation have true personalities. Lewis speculated about this in Perelandra, when the Green Lady (Tinidril) spoke of raising some of the beasts that they may become hnau. (Siren, if you haven't read Lewis' Interplanetary Trilogy, I think you'd get a lot out of it.)

Which brings us to the next question: Siren, when you identify Nature with The Goddess, could you expand a bit on what you mean? The modern rationalist view of nature is that it is an inanimate, impersonal force. More classic views (including classic Christianity) saw nature as the Great Dance of Creation (again, see Lewis' Perelandra), wherein the forces may not be living as we'd define "alive" scientifically or personal, but are the expression of the living, personal forces behind them. (For analogy, consider a beautiful symphony as being an expression of the skill and artistry of the composer.)

Your phrasing seems to imply that you view Nature herself as being alive, and in fact, the Goddess. It seems to me you could mean any number of things by this, and I want to be sure I understand you. For instance:



You could mean this strictly metaphorically - i.e. it's pleasant and comforting to think of nature as a personal being, but you know that it "really" is just impersonal forces driven by thermodynamics and gravity.
You could mean this in a pantheistic sense - i.e. if you took all the elements of nature and "added them up", that total would be The Goddess. This might imply that being in the presence of "more nature" means being more in the presence of The Goddess. Thus The Goddess would be present to a small degree through the trees in my yard, but if I was able to walk through the forests in north Michigan, I'd be even more in Her presence?
You could mean this is a mystical sense, where The Goddess is a distinct personality who is mediated through nature, but is distinct from it. Thus I may be able to come into the Goddess' presence through walking through a wood, but if all I've got is a window garden in my high rise, I could come into Her presence equally well there.
These are only examples; I'm just offering them as possible understandings but I don't want to put words in your mouth. What do you mean when you identify Nature with The Goddess? Especially, how do you understand the Goddess' personality to exist?

Wendygirljp, when you say this:
The arguments I have heard against being an animal are just as hilarious to me - "chimpanzees never invented a computer!" - So? Why would they want to? "They never build houses or make clothing!" - Again, so? Maybe they can adapt better than the weak, puny human being? And the last one I shall comment on today, "Animals don't have emotions, but live purely by instinct." Now, THAT is funny! Apparently, those who believe that have never been around other animals long enough to see.you are working of an unquestioned presupposition: that man is no more than an animal. Nobody is denying that man's nature has an animal component; what you are presuming is that an animal is all that man is. This philosophical stand is known as reductionism, and C.S. Lewis was one of it's most eloquent opponents. (See the Emerald Witch's enchantment in The Silver Chair for a lucid exposition.)

Man has long debated whether he is "merely" an animal, or is something more. In ancient Greece it was a hot question, and there was a school of thought that maintained he was no more than animal. These philosophers were called the "cynics" (based on the Greek word for "dog"). But other philosophers contended that no, man had something more than the beasts. He had self-awareness, a striving for something greater. He was capable of great evil but also great good, he was concerned with concepts like justice and beauty, and could examine and ponder the world around him. Some Greeks dubbed man "the rational animal", seeing that the ability to reason was one thing that separated him from animals. At about the same time in history, a small tribe of nomads who lived not far from Greece was writing down their tradition, which held that man had been specially created by a loving God who impressed him with His image.

Your post reflects what you have been taught, since in the post-Enlightenment world materialistic rationalism is the unquestioned philosophy. However, I'd contend that at a deep level, you understand that you as a human have understandings and sensitivities that no animal has. I'll even propose a simple test: let's say I were to delete your post and make an explanation saying that I just didn't like what you'd said, and for that matter I didn't like you, so I just deleted your post. You'd probably be outraged at the injustice of the action. But wait a minute - injustice? Why should any of us care about injustice, if we're just eating, breathing, breeding animals? Where does this concept of justice come from?

[LifeMaiden]

I've noticed from my experience working around a lot of women in the business I had in the past, for example, that the interest in Wicca and New Age ( you'd be surprised at how much money some of these girls spent on New Age stuff like crystal healing, etc etc) seemed to be spawned from a desire to find a 'female-oriented' spiritual 'religion'. There was, however, very little true understanding or knowledge of the nature of goddess worship and its origins. There were girls who would tape up pictures of Aphrodite and Venus and say things like " Thank Goddess" instead of " Thank God."

It sounds trendy to me..you know, suddenly some women find themselves reading books like I did in the past, primarily 'feminist' works...which seemed to reinterate the goddess mentality...i.e. " how do we know God is male, etc..." It seems to fit nicely in with the whole Da Vinci Code thing. ;)

[Wendygirljp]

Prince

You stated, "what you are presuming is that an animal is all that man is". My reply is "Why should humans be anything other than any other animal? What makes people more special than any other being?"

My religious beliefs state that ALL life is sacred and NONE is better than another. Obviously, some monotheistic beliefs believe differently, including Judeo-Christian thought.

I do not go with the concept that we are "special" to the concept of God, better than all other life. But hey, that's just me. I understand why others believe differently. I just believe what I do, even though it may not "sync" with others' beliefs.

[Wendygirljp]

Prince,

Last comment: Sorry I did not get it on the last post.

You stated in your "test", "I'll even propose a simple test: let's say I were to delete your post and make an explanation saying that I just didn't like what you'd said, and for that matter I didn't like you, so I just deleted your post. You'd probably be outraged at the injustice of the action."

It is you who is assuming, here. No, I would not be outraged at all. Personally, I would not care one way or another. I understand that not everyone likes me, knows me, or even enjoys what my thinking is like, let alone agrees with it. I see no "injustice" at all. That is more western thinking, to make somewhat of a generalization. I expect nobody to like me. If you or anyone else does, great. If not, fantastic.

A great teacher of mine said one time, "One third of the world will NOT like you at all. One third will not care one way or another. One third WILL like you for who you are. Why try to make everyone like you? It is unnatural."

Do you understand my perspective, now?

[Ephinie]

Prince

You stated, "what you are presuming is that an animal is all that man is". My reply is "Why should humans be anything other than any other animal? What makes people more special than any other being?"The thing that sets humans apart from any other animal on earth is the ability to create. We create stories, technologies, societies, ect. While many animals do in fact live in societies and have complex social interactions, no other animal has shown the ability to create or the capacity for imagination.

[LifeMaiden]

;) We need another thread for this man/animal thing LOL

[PrinceOfTheWest]

My reply is "Why should humans be anything other than any other animal? What makes people more special than any other being?"Part of the answer to this is, "look around you". Every culture, western or eastern, african or asiatic, has recognized that humans are different from other animals. True, man has done barbaric things to his fellow man, but in no recorded instance have men ever, say, routinely hunted other men for sport. Neither have men raised and herded other men to be used as food. Man has always recognized that men are different from other animals.

Another part of the answer is, again, "look around you", but to see what man has done that other animals have not. A few posts back, you made a statement implying that chimps have not invented computers because they have not wanted to. I find this laughable. Chimps have not invented computers because they do not have the ability to do so. Neither (and more importantly) do they have the ability to discuss rationally or act justly (or unjustly). They simply respond to thier environment to the ability that they have. Even though they are more intelligent than, say, squirrels, but this does not mean they have self-awareness and concepts such as justice. To speak of a chimp doing something "mean" or "noble" or in conformity to any abstract concept is nonsense. This is why your next statement:
My religious beliefs state that ALL life is sacred and NONE is better than another. Obviously, some monotheistic beliefs believe differently, including Judeo-Christian thought.actually confirms my point. No animal even considers the idea that its own life is "sacred", much less the life of any other beast. Only man has ever even considered the concept.

I do not go with the concept that we are "special" to the concept of God, better than all other life.It may interest you to know that the Judeo-Christian teaching about the "specialness" of man (the actual term is "bearing the image of God") is primarily a "specialness" of responsibility. In the Creation account, man is given control over the world in order to steward it properly - much like a butler might be given control over an estate to take care of it until the master's return. Thus, man's "specialness" was intended to be one where he used his superior abilities to protect and care for the world and its creatures. Of course, the same Creation account tells how man fell from that high calling and began to sin, thus sullying his mission. He has been abusing his fellow men and the entire Creation ever since.

In your last post you say:
No, I would not be outraged at all. Personally, I would not care one way or another. I understand that not everyone likes me, knows me, or even enjoys what my thinking is like, let alone agrees with it. I see no "injustice" at all. That is more western thinking, to make somewhat of a generalization. I expect nobody to like me. If you or anyone else does, great. If not, fantastic.

A great teacher of mine said one time, "One third of the world will NOT like you at all. One third will not care one way or another. One third WILL like you for who you are. Why try to make everyone like you? It is unnatural."

Do you understand my perspective, now?I understand what you're trying to say - I just don't believe for a minute that you're indifferent to injustice. Oh, I believe that you believe it. You may even be indifferent to a triviality like a forum post deletion. But if someone were to really wrong you - say, a stranger were to jump out from behind a building and slash your arm - you'd certainly feel more than just physical pain. You wouldn't shrug and say, "well, I expect nobody to like me." You'd recognize, first and foremost, that such an arbitrary attack would be unjust. This is not "western thinking" - one of the major themes of the Analects is the source and proper application of justice. Whether you connect with my example of a post deletion is not the issue; the issue is that humans are concerned with abstract concepts like justice in a way that no other creatures are.

Interestingly, what you relate about what your teacher told you also confirms my point. Recognizing that a certain percentage of people are never going to like you is a coping mechanism. To cope with what? Feelings of unjust treatment. Oops - where did those come from?

[Wendygirljp]

Prince,

Your attempt at "cleverness" using sarcasm does not amuse me in the least. Your "you don't know what you are talking about" attitude with your condescending comments is arrogant, to say the least, imho.

A few points before I write you off in your own little corner of the world:

Injustice? Because someone does not like me means it is injustice? I disagree 100%. It is not an issue of justice at all. About someone attempting to attack me? I hold not hostility toward that person. They suffer from an illness of hatred or some other form of dis-ease. I certainly do not "hate" that person. The only "injustice" is that this "attacker" is suffering so badly that he or she feels the need to lash out at another.

What my teacher taught me is not about coping - it is about basic human nature. Stop attempting to be Joe Psychologist and Social Culture Specialist, because you are failing badly by making your claims about me. You could not be further from the truth.

About all other cultures believing that humans are better than other animals? Not true at all. Many do, yes. Not all. Try researching the concept of Animism, the oldest religion in the world. While age is not necessary to make it "wise", let alone right or wrong, it believes that we are ALL part of this melodrama called life - no better or no less than another.

As for your "preaching" at me about Judeo-Christian ethic and philosophy, you need not do that. I have been studying the numerous religions of the world since 1970, with more than enough "sheepskin" to back up what I have studied, as if that would even be necessary. I am not here to impress you with what I know, so, how about you stop attempting to impress me with your petty little attempts to minimize my beliefs, making them wrong while attempting to make yours right. IMHO, there is not always an "either/or" condition - this situation included.

If, by any chance, you see these words as hostility, set your mind at ease that I am not upset. I just find your attempts to justify your beliefs by claiming mine are wrong to be quite immature. I have not condemned anyone's in this case of people being or not being animal in nature. I have merely stated that I find it humorous. That is not an attempt at insult at all.

About your claim, "No animal even considers the idea that its own life is "sacred", much less the life of any other beast. Only man has ever even considered the concept." I disagree. I have seen too much to say they don't. Again, that is my belief, built on what I have observed in the world. If you disagree with me, fine. Your choice.

Now, one suggestion. How about moving on and spend your energies on those who agree with you, so you need not create any suffering or feelings of superiority from those whom you disagree. If you wish to continue to attempt to minimize, that is your choice.

[Wendygirljp]

Ice Maiden -

Good idea. However, I am going to step out, as I am not being received as someone who is contributing, but apparently as one who is being contrary, even though that is the farthest from my mind, let alone brain.

Thank you for all of your input you have given me over the past few weeks.

I wish you and yours well.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Goodness, Wendygirl! Feeling unjustly treated? Trivialized, perhaps? I thought such things didn't matter to you - you could just consign me to the 1/3 of the world who doesn't like you at all, couldn't you?

Rest assured I don't "not like you" - it isn't you, but your arguments I'm contending with. I'm not sure where you're finding this sarcasm that you find so offensive. I can be sarcastic when I wish, but I wasn't intending any in that last post. But I do find it interesting that even imagined sarcasm makes you bristle a bit...

My example of injustice (the unprovoked attack) did not refer to how someone feels about you, but what they (hypothetically) would be doing to you. And your emotional response, or lack thereof ("I hold not hostility toward that person") would not be the issue, either. What would be at issue was whether such an attack would be just or not - something no creature on earth but man is concerned with. (Please forgive me if I am dubious that you would accept such an attack with total sangfroid, being concerned only for the distressed emotional state of the attacker. If your reaction to a perceived verbal attack on an internet forum is any indication, your reaction to an unexpected and unprovoked physical attack on a street corner would probably be a bit more heated.)

Actually, I have studied Animism (http://www.bartleby.com/65/an/animism.html) - and it is not about the equality of animals. The name comes from the Latin root anima ("spirit"), not from "animal". It is a religious system that finds spiritual forces everywhere, among rocks, trees, streams, and animals. Animism's primary concern is not equality, but understanding and appeasing the petty spiritual forces that surround you. There is also dispute as to whether it is the oldest religion in the world. That's a modernist anthropological assumption overlayed on actual research. Strong evidence exists that indicates that monotheism is the oldest belief system in the world, and polytheism and animism arose later.

I'd be interested in any examples you can present of other species being concerned with the sacredness of life. When have any other creatures expressed abstract concern for the lives of other species, and what form did that expression take? I certainly understand that some humans can hold such a view - as Siren contends in this thread, the sacredness of all life is central to wicca - but I've never heard of anyone but man being concerned with it.

[inkspot]

To talk about man and animals, go to the new Thread (thanks, Ephinie):
http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showthread.php?p=383456#post383456
And we can move this Thread back to a discussion of Wicca.

Wendygirl, I have to agree with PoTW that the passion you show in your responses to him betrays your declaration that you have nothing but pity for the unenlightened.

[Parthian King]

Your attempt at "cleverness" using sarcasm does not amuse me in the least. Your "you don't know what you are talking about" attitude with your condescending comments is arrogant, to say the least, imho.

A few points before I write you off in your own little corner of the world.

I am not here to impress you with what I know, so, how about you stop attempting to impress me with your petty little attempts to minimize my beliefs, making them wrong while attempting to make yours right.

If, by any chance, you see these words as hostility, set your mind at ease that I am not upset.

Watch that last step, it's a doozy.

[Siren]

I'm staying out of the other stuff and feel bad that its getting negative here. That's not a goal of mine certainly. And I hope its stopped being made personal.

Back on topic...

The Goddess and God control Nature. Though they give it free will as well. For instance, Goddess doesn't tell a deer to drink water or a cheetah to hunt. They are there when we need Them and ask only that we cherish what They have given us and also, that we are there when They need us.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

So, then, these spiritual beings are personal, in the sense that they have personality (as opposed to an impersonal force like electricity)? And they have some sort of authority over nature, but are distinct from it? Also, you understand them to be two distinct beings, correct? Not just different face or aspects of one being?

Also, are the God and Goddess, as you understand them, created or uncreated? Are they eternally existent, or did they come about at some point? Also, if they have authority over natural forces, what is the source of that authority? Did they create the forces? Or did something/someone else create them and entrust them with the authority?

[echoscot]

Wow, what tantalizing questions. I, too, am curious about these philosophies, Siren.

[Siren]

They have personalities, yes. And They have authority over nature, however, are a part of it. As are we. And They are seperate entities.

I understand that They have been here since the Earth came into being. No one has told me this. As there is no one written creation story in Wicca. In Wicca, there is no explaining about stories, lessons, and creation. No special book to turn to. What ever written word was about the Goddess and God of Pagan beliefs is long gone. Likely burned during The Burning Times. They are here because we feel it and see it.
The few written creations stories have been passed down, written, and rewritten. But there is no place to turn to, to know for sure.
One of the creation stories I do know, and is quite popular is here: http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/amethystbt/wiccancreation.html

[LifeMaiden]

Very interesting reading and information, Siren. I am glad to see that those opposed to wicca are also curious about it.

Conversely, I am trying to become more curious about my old past faith, Catholicism, and moving forward with it everyday.

[Siren]

Cool, Ice Maiden (no pun intended) :)

I think its good for people to know what other religions are about. Not to go heavily in depth with it, but just to know both sides and then make an educated decision on how they feel about it.

[Gryphon]

Okay, so Goddess is Nature right? Or does she just control it? And what about God? What does he do?

[Siren]

Both God and Goddess control Nature. And They are also one with it, as are we.
The God and Goddess represent the balance of the universe, the world as a whole, no one part complete without the other. They are not, however, dichotomiesm they are not opposites. They can both represent all things. Both life and death, for example. They are a unit, more than they are two singulars.

[echoscot]

They are a unit, more than they are two singulars.

That's interesting, very similar to the concept of the Trinity in Christianity, not 3 separate, but as different aspects of the same.

[ArrowsOfSilver]

I am a Druid/Wiccan, and we have the same concept.

The God and the Goddess represent the sages of life; Birth, Life, and Death. They are the earth, They are creation, They live in us.

[echoscot]

I believe that Druidism is an ancestral form of Wicca is it not?

[Siren]

Yes, much of mordern day Wicca comes from Druid practices and beliefs.

[Gryphon]

The God and Goddess represent the balance of the universe, the world as a whole, no one part complete without the other. They are not, however, dichotomiesm they are not opposites. They can both represent all things. Both life and death, for example. They are a unit, more than they are two singulars.
Kind of like Yin and Yang?

[Siren]

Yes, its not uncommon to find such similarities in different religions and cultures. Especially something as universal as "connection". In Wicca, we try to keep things equal. From our God and Goddess, to allowing women and men to have higher authority in covens as priests and priestesses, and to the fact all our rituals are done in a circle, all people facing eachother, so no one is more important then another. Same reason King Arthur had a Round Table :)

[Parthian King]

Kind of like Yin and Yang?

Remember, Gryphon, the Yin and the Yang represent something diametrically opposed to the Christian message. The idea of Yin and Yang (as illustrated in the opposing dots in the center of each swirl) is that in all good there is a bit of evil, and in all evil there is a little good. But as Scripture says, "God is light, and in Him there is no darkness whatsoever" (1 John 1:5). Scripture also teaches that Satan is absolutely wicked (John 8:44)--there is no truth in him.

Yin and Yang also considers the spiritual forces in the universe to be dualistic, that is, that both good and evil are in equal balance, both eternally pre-existent, and the struggle will go on forever. Scripture teaches that evil is nothing but a temporary parasite on the good, and while good (as God) has always existed and always will, evil is nothing but dust in the wind, and will finally be forgotten.

Lewis explains a good deal of this in Mere Christianity.

On a lighter note, Arthur's round table 1) never existed except in fable, and 2) didn't even work there. :)

[Siren]

On a lighter note, Arthur's round table 1) never existed except in fable, and 2) didn't even work there. :)

I know, I was just using a universal example.

[LifeMaiden]

And if you guys saw that movie ARTHUR, which I really didn't care for except that Keira Knightley was in there...as well as a history channel special, Arthur was supposed to be a Roman guy named Arturius. A whole 'nother topic. :D

[Siren]

All stories stem from some truth. King Arthur may have not been real, but his stories are still based in some truth.

[LifeMaiden]

Remember, Gryphon, the Yin and the Yang represent something diametrically opposed to the Christian message. The idea of Yin and Yang (as illustrated in the opposing dots in the center of each swirl) is that in all good there is a bit of evil, and in all evil there is a little good. But as Scripture says, "God is light, and in Him there is no darkness whatsoever" (1 John 1:5). Scripture also teaches that Satan is absolutely wicked (John 8:44)--there is no truth in him.

Yin and Yang also considers the spiritual forces in the universe to be dualistic, that is, that both good and evil are in equal balance, both eternally pre-existent, and the struggle will go on forever. Scripture teaches that evil is nothing but a temporary parasite on the good, and while good (as God) has always existed and always will, evil is nothing but dust in the wind, and will finally be forgotten.

Lewis explains a good deal of this in Mere Christianity.

On a lighter note, Arthur's round table 1) never existed except in fable, and 2) didn't even work there. :)



Actually, Yin and Yang is a little different than that. Having studied many Eastern philosiphies, it wasn't mentioned in any of the things I read that it was as simple as good and evil existing together. The emphasis was that it was more of a feminine/masculine concept. Although it could be construed as good and evil co-existing.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Actually, aside from PK's point regarding the "little bad in every good/little good in every bad", is regarding the nature of evil itself. It's a subtle point, even when a genius like Lewis makes it in Mere Christianity, but it's critical.

Many philosophies and religions have understood "evil" to be a think in it's own right - something created corrupted, so to speak. This religious/philosophical position is called "dualism", and represents good and evil as two things in balance and/or contention. A pure example of religious dualism would be Zoroastrianism, which teaches of two gods, Ahurah Mazda (or Ozmud) representing the source of good and Ahriman the source of evil. Zoroastrianism sees these two in eternal conflict. Philosophical dualism can be found in those strains of Hinduism that see good and evil as two sides of the same coin.

This dualistic thinking even crept into some Christian teaching until one of Christianity's greatest thinkers, Thomas Aquinas, put his mind to it. The idea of something being "created evil" didn't ring true. First off, we know that God called all that He had created "good". Secondly, being created by God - existence itself - is a good thing, and thus nothing can be truly, 100% evil, since it will always have the good of existence as part of it. The more Aquinas pondered it, the more he realized that "evil" is not something in its own right, but rather the lack of something: specifically obedience. Evil is corrupted good; good that has chosen a path other than the path ordained for it by God.

This is a very subtle point, because we're accustomed to thinking of "evil things" as if evil was something in its own right, like an infection. Here's an analogy: we commonly think of things as being "hot" and "cold" and speaking of heat and cold as features or attributes. But if you talk to a thermal physicist, you find out that there's not really any such thing as "cold" - there's only "lack of heat". If you get a certain set of molecules moving enough, that's "hot". If you slow down the movement, that's "cold". You can't "add cold" to any molecules; you only take away the heat and what results by the absence of the heat is cold.

In a similar way, "evil" is what results when a being takes away what it is intended to have - obedience. Lewis addresses this very well in Mere Christianity, though he takes a slightly different tack to illustrate. The point is that at the core of orthodox Christianity lies the understanding that "evil" doesn't exist in the same category or even in the same way. Good is what God made; evil is the corruption of that good. How that corruption happens brings us to the threshold of the mystery of Free Will.

I'll stop here. I understand that this is a thread about Wicca, not Christianity, and I don't want to swing it away from it's intended focus. But I did want to explain this to set the framework for a question I have about how Wicca understands evil. Is it just another aspect of creation, created alongside good? Or are the definitions meaningless - but then, they can't be, can they? Siren has related the tragic tale of of how her daughter was mistreated, that was so evil that it drove her to cast a spell despite the fact that she didn't want to do that. There is no question that the mistreatment was evil. Christianity would say it was evil because it was a corruption of the good (in fact, the corruption of many things which were meant to be good). How would Wicca understand the root of such actions?

I'm finding this very interesting, and I've got a few more questions I'll post tomorrow. Thank you all for your courtesy.

[Siren]

Wicca has no black and white line of good and evil. Personally, I don't believe people are born evil. They are often made that way. Either by experience or rearing. As far as Wicca is concerned and the views from it, I have found no eternal distinction of good and evil in Wicca. We decide our own paths. We may be steered to go one way, by grand design or not, but we choose which path. I chose the path to be good to others. And the spell I cast, I don't ever feel proud of it. Rather something I felt I had to do, as I tried every other plausible way within the Earth-bound laws to do so. If I had to do it all over again would I have cast the spell? More then likely. Its worked this long. And as I re-power it, so to speak, its still working.

Wicca's view on the act itself...It was wrong. And as Wiccan Rede dictates, he will have reprocussions 3 times as worse. What they may or have been, I don't know. And how would the Wiccan Rede apply to me in the case of my spell, I can only let God and Goddess decide. I don't feel like I have been punished for the spell thus far. Nothing horrible has happened since then. My daughter is still here and safe.

And you are welcome for discussing this openly with you. However, seeing the word about what happened to her just kinda gave me a bad pang in the bottom of my stomach and a lump in my throat. I know I'm the original one who brought it up of course, and I shouldn't be surprised seeing that string of words still does that to me. Certainly not asking you from refraining to refer to that, but would it be too much to ask if you could not use that word? I know its a bit stupid of me, and it may just be tonight. I might feel better about it tomorrow and regret even mentioning this at all. I'm rambling, sorry.

[Gryphon]

Remember, Gryphon, the Yin and the Yang represent something diametrically opposed to the Christian message.
And Witchcraft isnt? I dont mean to be rude really. Siren already knows that Witchcraft is agaisnt Christianity the diffrence is, the Christian shouldnt be againt the Witch for the only purpose of what they do. No, we shouldnt take part in it or ask them for counsil, I'm just trying to learn something about the religion and so far Siren has done wonderfully in explaining it. :D

[Ephinie]

I have a question for you, Siren. If I remember correctly (without going back and lookig it up), I think you mentioned something about practising your religion alone, as in you didn't have a coven or any group of people with whom you worship. Are any of your close friends Wiccans as well, or do they all adhere to other religions? How strong an emphasis does Wicca place on fellowship with others who have similar beliefs?

[Siren]

Thanks Gryphon :)

Ephinie, Wicca doesn't dictate who would should mingle with. Most of my friends are Wicca, Christian, and Athiest. I have a few Jewish and Muslim friends too. But my religion has rarely got in the way of a friendship. The few times it has it is usually because they find out I am Wiccan and then terminate the friendship by avoiding me, not returning calls, etc. I've gotten use to it. But I also get to see who my real friends are. Even my boyfriend things most of it is mumbo jumbo, but he doesn't have a problem with it and still respects me. And I would never ask him to try it out. If he wants to watch me preform a spell sometime, I wouldn't be bothered with it. But don't care if he rather not. He isn't religious. He believes there's a God, but that's pretty much it. So the fact that religion in our relationship is backburner material works well for us. And yes, backburner. I would never put God and Goddess before my daughter. There is no law in Wicca that says they come first and it was one of the things I had a problem with when I talked to people in the church. About putting God above all else. I can't do it. I put my daughter before God and Goddess. A ritual can wait if she needs something. But that's me. Don't see nothing wrong with putting God first, its just not for me.

And most of my friends, we discuss religion little. They know I am Wicca, I know what they are. I will tell them a snippet of info if they ask or it comes up in conversation, but avoid having a religious debate with friends. That's how I tend to go here in this thread. Just stating what I know and feel. Rather then argue points.

[Parthian King]

And Witchcraft isnt? I dont mean to be rude really.

Similarly, Gryphon, I don't mean to be rude...but you really ought to read text and intentions a little more carefully. The punch behind your rhetorical question was my very point.

As for Siren's comments about the nature of Wicca, I searched for a word that would match the fairly concise emotion that hit me as I read her last two posts (especially the penultimate one), and it came to me: Orphan. The whole thing strikes me as a mythos of fear and self-determination in the very worst sense of the term. Though Siren will probably take this as an attack, it isn't one. My heart goes out to her. But the idea that the gods leave us to ourselves, may or may not help us choose the right path, may or may not bring down on us what we have done (according to capricious timing), may or may not have a larger plan, well, that's a position of despair for me. Even though it sounds "positive" to declare that "all people are basically good" and to assert (essentially) that the whole good v. evil thing is off target, in reality it creates a world of confusion in which we are left to determine what is evil according to the only standard we are left with--ourselves. Given that we often aren't very good at even the sort of normal self-determination that makes up much of life's activities (like remembering to pay a bill, or buy butter, or return a call), I shudder to think that I would be left alone to navigate the real substance of this life, and worse, all eternity. That's why I need a Shepherd.

As for "putting God first," well, the way I see it, He gave His Son for me while I was His enemy. He way put me first. Now that He is my Father and I am His son by adoption, He is not first in my life. He is my life. Given Siren's description of her worldview, I see this as the point of departure between Wicca and Christianity: Sonship vs. going it alone.

[Siren]

I never said they leave us to our own devices. I said they guide us. It may be in dreams, meditation or right before us. We are never alone because God and Goddess are always there, even when we don't ask for their assistance.

And I didn't see it as an attack, but as an opinion.

[inked]

But why settle for the notorious capriciousness of the "gods and goddesses"?
The ancients long noted their unreliability. The plays and poetry of the Greeks and Romans are full of it.

That is a serious question, by the way. I don't grasp the concept of adhering to a created being in the spiritual world less than the Creator. Why settle for a tutelary spirit which is seemingly great to a human, but clearly under the hierarchical control of higher spirits and ultimately God?

You seem to have a truncated great chain of being. :confused:

[Parthian King]

Either by experience or rearing. As far as Wicca is concerned and the views from it, I have found no eternal distinction of good and evil in Wicca. We decide our own paths.

Wicca's view on the act itself...It was wrong. And as Wiccan Rede dictates, he will have reprocussions 3 times as worse. What they may or have been, I don't know. And how would the Wiccan Rede apply to me in the case of my spell, I can only let God and Goddess decide. I don't feel like I have been punished for the spell thus far.

I would never put God and Goddess before my daughter. There is no law in Wicca that says they come first and it was one of the things I had a problem with when I talked to people in the church. About putting God above all else. I can't do it. I put my daughter before God and Goddess. A ritual can wait if she needs something. But that's me. Don't see nothing wrong with putting God first, its just not for me.

It was to these statements I referred, Siren. I do perceive that you feel as if you have a spiritual covering, a security. I was merely observing that the above statements are, by Christians standards, the very embodiment of “lostness.” By Christian standards, mind you. The fact that you still feel them yet nevertheless claim a sense of security all the more reaffirms my point: In the words of a Christian poet, “You’ve been pickin’ up stones when He can give you pearls.”

And thanks for not taking it as an attack, because it isn’t one.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

If I could make a request of participants in this thread, particularly my Christian brothers and sisters: could we drop the use of the term "witchcraft"? This is strictly in the interest of clear communications. The difficulty is that it is such a poorly defined term. "Witchcraft" has been used to describe everything from deliberate rites invoking evil spirits that involved blasphemy, perversion, and gross sin on one end all the way to tossing coins in fountains on the other - and almost everything in between.

Believe me, I am quite familiar with Scriptural invocations against witchcraft - in fact, I've made them a particular study of mine. I also think I could make a compelling case that witchcraft as defined in Scripture is either necromancy (as practiced by the Witch of Endor - 1 Sam 28) or the use of powerful spiritual forces to bend nature and men to the will of the invoker (e.g. Isaiah 47). I think I could even go so far as to contend that if there is a modern equivalent of what the Old Testament calls "witchcraft", it is more likely to be found in indiscriminate and unrestricted use of technology, rather than explicit invocation of spiritual forces. I also think that J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis would agree with me.

Because of this broad usage, it seems to me that the term "witchcraft" is so vague as to be meaningless to our discussion. The definitions which Siren and other wiccans are so graciously providing hew more closely to what Scipture might call "nature worship". I also realize what the Scriptures have to say regarding that, but recall that the severe words of the prophets were directed toward the people of Israel, who had entered into an exclusive covenant with Yahweh and sworn to follow Him alone. The later Scriptures, particularly those addressed to the goyim (Heb: "nations" - those outside the Covenant) such as Wisdom and Sirach, are understanding of and even sympathetic toward those who love and appreciate the beauty of nature. Siren has made quite clear that Wicca as she understands and practices it has nothing to do with invocation and/or worship of evil spirits, so we can dismiss the aspect out of hand. She has discussed the idea of spells, but she's also made clear how she views those: as something more akin to manipulating natural forces than invoking spiritual forces or familiars. She's also made clear that such invocations are to be used rarely and only in extreme need. I understand that Christians might view such forces through a different lens, but let's be mindful that this is a Wiccan thread, wherein Wiccans are trying to explain Wicca as they understand and practice it. It would be (at least) rude of any of us non-Wiccans to come in and start telling them what their definitions really mean. Let us hear what they have to say and interpret it by the definitions they provide.

On a personal note, Siren, please accept my profound apologies for opening up old wounds through any terms I used in my posts. I deeply regret any pain this may have caused you, and I have edited my post to remove them. My heart continues to go out to you and your daughter, and I pray that you may be comforted in your distress.

I also wish to thank all Wiccans for their courtesy and patience with questions. For my part, please understand that I am driven by honest curiosity and concern - I have no intention of leading anyone into a "gotcha" situation where I spring some kind of rhetorical trap. Any series of questions I pose that follow a train of thought are intended to (as Socrates would say) "follow truth wherever it leads."

I have several questions to ask, but this post is overlong already, so I'll just toss in one. Siren, you point out your post #181 that
Wicca has no black and white line of good and evil... As far as Wicca is concerned and the views from it, I have found no eternal distinction of good and evil in Wicca.and then you say
Wicca's view on the act itself (i.e. the treatment of your daughter) It was wrong.I'm trying to reconcile these statements with an eye to better understanding how Wicca apprehends good and evil.

Let me postulate three scenarios:


A wealthy, successful technical thief steals the contents of the retirement account of an elderly couple.
At risk of their lives, two strangers charge into a raging stream to pull a mother and child out of an automobile and carry them to safety
A young unskilled laborer loses his wife in an automobile accident, which also severly injures his toddler daughter. Heartbroken and bereaved, he is also faced with immense medical expenses which he has no way to pay. Walking past a jewelry store, in a fit of fear and desperation he smashes a window and grabs some jewelry in hopes of pawning it to help with his desperate straits.
Am I right in supposing that we can all agree on the moral status of at least two of these scenarios? The first is unquestionably evil - there is no excuse for a wealthy man robbing an elderly couple of their only means of support. The second is not only purely good but heroically so. The third is more complicated - strictly speaking an evil act, but with other factors at issue that complicate the question - what some would call a "shades of gray" matter, though I would avoid that terminology for several reasons.

So here's my question: upon what would a Wiccan base the conclusion that the account theft was evil and the rescue good? (Leave aside for a moment the question of the desperation theft.)

[Gryphon]

Thanks Gryphon :)
No problem, I'm just trying to learn something. Isn't that the intention of this thread?

And PK, just what is your point? I dont think I understand you....

i is homskooled, big wurdz confuz me :p

[Parthian King]

My point was merely that any system that relativizes good and evil, that somehow blurs the line between them or muddies how they are defined--be that Yin/Yang dualism or nature worship (like Wicca), represents a significant departure (not just a slight difference) from Christian teaching. When you asked "and witchcraft doesn't" (pace POTW's word of clarification between Wicca and witchcraft), I was making clear that I never intended to draw a difference, but was in fact pointing out a parallel.

[Gryphon]

I know that they are simliar, I was asking Siren if it was correct. Thanks for trying to answer it though :rolleyes:

[LifeMaiden]

I think Parthian King said it pretty straightforwardly when he said " Why settle for stones when you can have pearls." In other words why settle for less when you can know God?

[Gryphon]

I think Parthian King said it pretty straightforwardly when he said " Why settle for stones when you can have pearls." In other words why settle for less when you can know God?
Because people are happy with "Less" :rolleyes:

I dont think that much you guys can say to Siren against her religion will make her think twice about it. You guys are in fact, casting "pearls" before "swine"

Now, please back on topic :D

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Oh, by all means, Gryphon, we Christians should avoid discussing differing beliefs with others, since we've got the pearls and they're merely swine! We've got it all, don't we? We should just kick back and let them come to us - never mind trying to understand anyone else, or try to appreciate the good and truth that might exist in anything humans understand. No good in that at all, no sir! We can just mail 'em a Bible - or better yet, send 'em a link to an online Bible - and kick back to wait for them to show up to talk things over. And if they never do? Well, that's their never mind.

For that matter, all that stuff in Lewis' life? How he was a hardened, belligerent atheist for decades? Only God kept a hook in his heart, a hook placed there by the beauty and power of pagan Norse mythology! A hook that Christian J.R.R. Tolkien was able to use to point out the eternal truth of the Gospel to Lewis, and thus reel him back to God! I mean, really - what kind of nonsense is that? What Lewis needed was a good altar call, that was all - and if he wasn't willing to walk that sawdust trail - well, pearls before swine.

And how 'bout that St. Paul? Imagine him, actually talking things over with the pagan Greeks at the Areopagus in Acts 17 - why, he even used the God-given truth in their own poetry to proclaim the truth of the Resurrection to them! And when some of them wanted to talk it over more with him, he even offered to come back and converse some more! What did he think he was doing, anyway? They had the Scriptures - in Greek, even! If he'd been smart, he would have just recognized that they were pagans, and nothing was going to change their minds. Pearls before swine.

*sheesh*

Sorry to the rest of the readers if Gryphon's post falls somewhat short of courtesy. I do not think anyone here "swine", and neither do I consider your beliefs utter nonsense. I believe, along with Lewis, that the greatest truth lies in the revelation of God's love through His Son Jesus Christ, and that we all will face Him someday. But I also believe, again with Lewis, that there is no system of belief that does not contain some shred of the truth, and that if we all follow that truth in openness and integrity, we will not be led astray.

For my Wiccan friends, in the interest of full disclosure, I assure you that I believe the fullness of what you seek in Nature is found in Nature's Creator, He has put Nature in place to point you to Him, and in Him you will come to appreciate Nature in a way that surpasses even your most ecstatic experience now. But as I've said in other posts, I'm not interested in engaging in a discussion to trick you or lead you on. I want to understand how you understand your beliefs, and look for the common truths between them and orthodox Christianity. I hope along the way to perhaps persuade you that your images of Christianity are not as accurate as you might think, and maybe our beliefs are worth another look as well. In any event, I hope we can continue to dialogue in mutual respect and understanding, in the way shown by Lewis and St. Paul.

In the meantime, I hope we Christians can stop hanging our dirty laundry out in your living room.

[Parthian King]

To fully concur with POTW, and to approach the issue from an exegetical angle (to augment his theological/philosophical approach), the idea of "casting pearls before swine" comes from Matthew 7:6--

Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

The idea, made particularly clear at the end of the passage, is that one should not take truth that is precious and sacred and present it to those who are openly abusive and profane. But it seems obvious to me that Siren is neither abusive nor profane; she is here dialoguing. As a Christian, I (by definition) differ vastly with her worldview, but by my own reading of my own Scriptures, I do not see how she qualifies as one before whom pearls are vainly cast. This passage should be very, very carefully applied, and, I might add, its application should never be broadcast (i.e., "Oh, I see now that you are the dog, the swine Jesus referred to in Matthew 7:6, so seeya..."). God in heaven help us! I wonder how many of us Christians were living like the prodigal son, eating with the pigs, when the gospel came to us (read Luke 15). I further wonder how many responded to it positively the first time. Did not the Lord show great patience and mercy, keeping the door to the Ark open long for us to get in? At least that's how it was with me, as He waited years for me to get past my pride and let Him love me, while He endured sins which will remain between Him and me.

No, I prefer to think of this passage when it comes to pearls...

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.--Matthew 13:45-46

I unabashedly invite and encourage Siren, overjoyed, imnotobsessedohno, and any number of others who are not Christians but seem drawn here, to see Christ and to sell all to buy that jewel, that pearl that is Jesus. As long as they are not abusive, and as long as they come to talk, I consider them merchants seeking pearls, royalty in the rough--not swine.

[echoscot]

What wonderful responses from both POTW and Parthian King, though I must admit I had a hard time getting past;

"Exegetical" LOL,

Exe...Exe...Exege... (quickly gets dictionary)...Oh, okay.... :D

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Keep at it, echoscot, you can do it!

[LifeMaiden]

Siren I was curious... In wicca, is there a 'creator' or creators who made the world and everything in it, especially with regard to nature ( woods, animals, fields, etc). Is the Mother Earth goddess 'Gaia' or goddess of the hunt/moon Diana emphasized in wicca in any way?

[Gryphon]

Oh, by all means, Gryphon, we Christians should avoid discussing differing beliefs with others, since we've got the pearls and they're merely swine! We've got it all, don't we? We should just kick back and let them come to us - never mind trying to understand anyone else, or try to appreciate the good and truth that might exist in anything humans understand. No good in that at all, no sir! We can just mail 'em a Bible - or better yet, send 'em a link to an online Bible - and kick back to wait for them to show up to talk things over. And if they never do? Well, that's their never mind.
And you think that because you tell her that what she does is evil, thats going to convince her to come back to God? Perhaps you've forgotten something, a verse that I will now quote...

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

If you had been paying attention, Siren said that at one point she was a Christian. She fell away and I dont think that much anyone says to her over the internet is going to nudge her in the right direction. She's even told us that family and friends have tried to convince her otherwise, these are people who are close to her and still she wont listen to them. I think there is a point when you need to get off of the computer and face the fact that there are people closer to you that need your help more than Siren. There are people around you all day who are silently crying out for help and I hate it how you think that what you do attacking her religion and calling it evil is going to help either you or her.

Yes, in my eyes and your eyes and God's eyes, what she does is wrong. She knows where you stand, she knows VERY well how all Christians stand, but I dont think that will change her mind.

So I suppose that in the precious hours we have, we should evangelize on the net and keep quiet to the people around us in the office, the home, the grocery store, the resturant and even the church because we think with the things we say on the internet actually makes more of a diffrence than we think.

Sometimes it works. But I think in Siren's case (and I'm sure she agrees with me) that there isnt much you can say to change her mind.

You think I dont care? Oh, I do very much, but I know where to draw the line.

[Gryphon]

Sorry to the rest of the readers if Gryphon's post falls somewhat short of courtesy. I do not think anyone here "swine", and neither do I consider your beliefs utter nonsense.
You also think that I would call people here swine? No, I'm not. I'm saying what the analogy has said for ages, putting your attention somewhere where people dont want it is useless. You dont need to apologise to them for something I said, if I feel convicted for anything I'll say it myself and save you the trouble. You dont have the right to assume that I think of them so lowley. :mad:

[echoscot]

Wow, that was a pretty harsh and Bible thumping quote there. I am actually quite familiar with that verse from Hebrews and also realize that there is a lot of debate about its true meaning. Many theologians have debated it for centuries, but you seem to have it all figured out.

I don't think anyone questions your point about whether you evangelize anyone on the net, but everyone you meet. The issue is with the method. The only people I have read about Christ calling out like you have done, are the Pharisees, who were so busy quoting the law that they missed the point.

This thread was not designed to be a name calling scheme. So I think POTW's reference was for you to refrain from doing so. Parthian also made an excellent point about the intention and context of the "swine" verse. He kind of got hot under the collar a bit about it, but the point is made that this is not the place for that kind of behavior. Calling someone Evil or whatnot is not required.

I have actually enjoyed this thread, and contrary to your interpretation of the verse from Hebrews, have seen several people return to the faith after having wandered away from it, whether to Wicca, agnosticism or whatever. So, since I am convinced the Scriptures are not wrong, therefore the interpretation must be incorrect.

[Parthian King]

Gryphon, your words carry repercussions beyond your own convictions or lack of them. When one Christian says something like that, the others are affected whether you intend it or not. Think a moment, put yourself in the shoes of an unbeliever, and overhear one Christian say to another (who has been talking to you): "Hey, she's an unbeliever who practices X religion--you're casting your pearls before swine." Would you really just say, "Oh, that's cool. That guy just called me swine, but it's no big deal because even though I'm not a Christian and don't know any Scripture, I still know that's just an analogy. " Hhmm. I personally just don't buy that you'd take it so lightly. Perhaps if they said, "Hey, she's not interested"--maybe, but not the swine reference. Jesus Himself meant it more strongly and for a more specific context than you are suggesting.

POTW and myself were deferring to the lessened awareness that non-Christians generally have toward "Christianese," and were making sure that, for our part, we wanted these folks to know we did not consider talking to them to be a waste of time. I don't think this situation fits that Bible verse, and I stand by what I wrote.

Back to the Wicca-Christian dialogue.

[Gryphon]

Its not that I dont think that Siren could come back to the faith. I think she very well could if she wanted, but again, I dont think that much anyone throws at her will convince her otherwise.

Its possible that at this moment a Wiccan could be reading what we've said and say "Well, maybe I am doing something wrong..." but whenever I hear about someone coming back to Christ, its through a friend or a family member.

I think I'm more offended that he would apologise for me. I really dont need him to and if you want to delete anything I've said then it's not like I'm stopping you, but honestly, when was the last time someone came out on this forum and said after a hot debate "Oh my gosh, you're right, I should probably think twice about this X-religion" it just doesnt happen, at least not usually.

If im going to apologise for anything its to the unbelievers who read my posts and think I have insulted them, I would never do such a thing, but beware when reading my posts, I nip at the heels of Christians sometimes and its hard for me to portray my true feelings and concerns through words and most times its taken the wrong way :D

[Parthian King]

Very good, Gryphon. For us who are Christians, the main concern is to properly (as best as our clumsiness allows) dialogue with those who don't share our faith.

There's no "debating" someone into Christianity, or any other religion for that matter. But as Christians we believe in representing someone, and letting Him--by the power of the Holy Spirit--do His work in His way, even if we never see it.

My hope is that Siren would read my intentions that I want the very best for her and her daughter according to my own perspective and the truth as I know it. If she were to know that I consider knowing Jesus to be the best life, and at the same time know that I say, "I give up all hope for Siren," well, how would she take that? She may disagree that Jesus is the best life, but as long as she knows that I believe He is the way, then I also want her to believe I'm pulling for that for her.

C.S. Lewis, as POTW points out, was never afraid to talk to people of other perspectives in an effort to understand and be understood. I hope we can do the same here.

[echoscot]

when was the last time someone came out on this forum and said after a hot debate "Oh my gosh, you're right, I should probably think twice about this X-religion" it just doesnt happen, at least not usually.




Actually, IceMaiden is a tremendous example. She even started a thread and I can point out another young man on the DVC thread who has renewed his interest in the faith because of what several people haev shared.

The concern came from the brusqueness of your approach. This thread was never started to try to evangelize any Wiccan. It was an opportunity to share information about their faith with the rest of us and they listened, actually very politely, while we shared ours and even voiced our disagreements.

I do pray that maybe some of what has been shared will stay in their hearts.

The real concern came, and perhaps we all just misunderstood what you were saying, from the tone of your last few posts. They appeared very condemning and harsh. The Swine verse should be used with caution, as Parthian King has already mentioned twice. And in this thread, we have made much mutual progress without resorting to anykind of hellfire and brimstone tactics. I'm sorry if that sounds mean, but that is what came across from your posts.

Apparently you do not realize how your actions reflect on everyone who calls themselves a Christian. I am painfully aware of what happens. I have screwed up countless times and my biggest regret is the shame it brings on my family in Christ. Your words, regardless of how intended, came across offensive, and there really was no need. The Bible is clear that we must speak the truth, but the important thing is to do it in love. 1 Corinthians 13 is absolutely clear on that, there is no debate from anyone about the meaning. Because of that POTW had to separate himself from the perceptions left by that post, so we could continue a rather productive and amicable thread.

Again, this thread is really for Wiccan to share with us and answer questions about their belief. That does not mean that we are condoning it or just ignoring the differences.

If you are frustrated about responses you have received here, then just don't post, but don't blast everyone on the way out.

[LifeMaiden]

It didn't take very long to convince me to open the door again to re-examine and go back to my old faith did it :D

I think it's that down deep inside, or rather, the way I see it symbolically, is that you can throw all the locks on the door that you want, and you can even deny what is on the other side, but what is there never goes away. You guys helped me to unlock the door. And for that, I am eternally grateful.

[inkspot]

I think we're all clear now. Gryphon wanted tolearn about Wicca and was tired of many Christians sidetracking to show where Wicca and Christianity parted ways, as if this Thread were on Wicca vs. Christianity, that's all. She did not think this was the --ahem-- forum for trying to draw Siren toward Christ, and so she thought we were sort of hijacking the Wicca Thread with all our Christ talk.

In a way, I agree, this is the Wicca Thread, so we shouldn't turn it into the Christianity vs. Wicca Thread, but in another way, I very much disagree with Gryphon's point that an internet conversion just ain't gonna happen, because, as Scot and IM have pointed out, it does happen. No one is beyond God's grace, and our precious Lord can use any avenue we open to Him to bring His children back to Him.

So, if our resident Wiccan, Siren, does not mind wandering these side tracks as we Christians compare and contrast her faith and ours, I see no reason we need to pull back completely. OK, everyone? Good. Thank you all for your forebearance. Exegetically. :)

[Parthian King]

Exegetically. :)

Yes, um, er, to exegete the title of the larger thread, it is "Christianity and Narnia." Ostensibly, "Wicca" fits, sort of, because there are elements in Lewis that allude to nature magic sort of things (although I would argue that CON itself as well as his other writings make clear that he means something other than what Siren practices). Nevertheless, the allusion is there, justifying, in a way Siren throwing it out there. The "Christianity" element sort of goes without saying given the context.

So (exegetically speaking), the very syntax of the larger thread's title indicates that this is the place to talk about Christianity in relationship with Narnia-type subjects. While Wicca may or may not be one of those subjects, the thread itself may determine that for the participants. To compare and contrast it with Christianity is why the discussion is happening here in a C.S. Lewis forum and not in a Wicca forum, at least as far as I can see.

[inkspot]

Well, I have never exegeted in my life, but I'll allow it. Carry on.
:)

[PrinceOfTheWest]

I've got a question that dovetails with the question IceMaiden asked in post #199 (http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showpost.php?p=396466&postcount=199), and springboards off Siren's post #164 (http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showpost.php?p=384593&postcount=164). I'm specifically interested in how the God and Goddess relate to the natural order. You state that "They have authority over nature, however, are a part of it". Leaving aside the question of creation, let me ask whether the God and Goddess are subject to the laws of nature as we are? We humans, being at least part animal, are in some regard bound by the laws of this universe. If I step off a cliff, I have no choice - gravity is going to work, and I'll have no say in it. I have no authority over natural processes save by using those same natural laws (e.g. I can "defy gravity" by lifting a book off the table, but that's simply using other natural laws.) Yet if the God and Goddess have "authority over nature", that implies that in some sense they're "above" or "beyond" nature - how do you understand this? Are they part of the created order but relate to the physical world in a different way than we beings of matter? In Judeo-Christian understanding, there are spiritual beings who are part of the created order but are subject to different laws because they are creatures of a differt type - angels and such. C.S. Lewis imagined spiritual beings who steered planets, yet were not bound to the laws of those planets or even the physical order. I'm trying to understand how you see the God and Goddess fitting in to this.

Also, the question I asked about good and evil is still out there in post #189 (http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showpost.php?p=393597&postcount=189). Thanks!

[Siren]

Contrary to popular belief, I don't always have time to reply to all the threads. And I haven't had a chance to read some of the longer ones right now, so I can't touch all elements of what is asked of me at this point.

And Gryphon is correct, nothing anyone says will make me turn to Christianity. I've been down that road before and was not happy. These past few days-week I've answered questions and have no problem doing so, however, I have indications that some of the questions are just trying in someway to rip apart Wicca. Sorry, won't do it for me. I could sit here and ask for you to explain to me how a man is created from dirt and a woman from a rib, but its not my intention to pick apart a relgion that I have no business judging and actually do like, though not fully agree/believe in. That's me.

As I stated before, there is some of Wicca that is still in mystery. People want me to to compare it to Christianity in the way of how the world and mankind was created. As I said, there is no Book of Shadows that tells all the stories as the Bible, Koran, etc tell their stories. In Wicca, there is little talk about the first day earth was created. Or when animals and people were created. Because each Wiccan has their own belief because it is in mystery and is left to each indivdual soul and heart to decide. I cannot speak for the rest of them. Only myself. And I try not to get too in depth, because this is just general infomation, not recruitment. I don't want someone to read this and say "Wicca is for me!". I was exposed to Wicca early on and cast it away. Only later actually learning about it because one night, it came to me to look up the word "Wicca". This was long before Buffy:The Vampire Slayer, The Craft, and even Sabrina tv series. It was just in me to look for it. I posted this to say just what Wicca was about, not to compare it to what the Bible says or how different it is from the Bible. As stated before, this isn't Christianity vs. Wicca. Nor is this C.S. Lewis vs Wicca. This is just, Wicca. I rather keep questions to that alone. Not comparrisons or differences or arguments. I don't mind some sidetracks, but don't be asking me "Well, in the Bible it says ____, what does Wicca have to say of that?"

Later tonight or tomorrow I will read the rest and answer what I can/want.

[Parthian King]

I posted this to say just what Wicca was about, not to compare it to what the Bible says or how different it is from the Bible. As stated before, this isn't Christianity vs. Wicca. Nor is this C.S. Lewis vs Wicca. This is just, Wicca.

I understand that, Siren. But as has come up in other threads (Islam, Mormonism, etc.), the thread, though started by you, does not belong to you. It belongs to forum members. And the title of the thread category is "Christianity and Narnia." So when members post, comparing Wicca with Narnia, Lewis, and Christianity, they are very much in the right place, doing what the thread is about, and not trespassing in the least. That was my only point.

[echoscot]

I think to a lot of points this thread got sidetracked. We had quite a dialogue going and a couple of comments got passed on, which I also took somewhat harsh,

Siren, the way Gryphon's one post sounded, we thought she was calling you swine, and came gallantly to your defense. however a bit misguided. in re-reading the thread, we got off on a debate of what does the Bible mean about this or that or what Gryphon's intentions were.

I hope that is all behind us and we can move forward with this thread.

[Siren]

I understand that, Siren. But as has come up in other threads (Islam, Mormonism, etc.), the thread, though started by you, does not belong to you. It belongs to forum members. And the title of the thread category is "Christianity and Narnia." So when members post, comparing Wicca with Narnia, Lewis, and Christianity, they are very much in the right place, doing what the thread is about, and not trespassing in the least. That was my only point.

I understand that, but I will not answer questions that compare the two or three. Just about Wicca itself.

And I understood Gryphon's context and did not take it as an insult. Plus Gryphon sent me a PM apologizing if I felt insulted in anyway. So all is well, least for me :)

[Parthian King]

I understand that, but I will not answer questions that compare the two or three. Just about Wicca itself.

Totally understandable. That wouldn't be up to you anyway. Thanks for being here.

[dude]

I can't change people's minds that feel Wicca is a form of Satanic worship.

I enjoyed your post. I'm a Scientologist and could have taken your post and replaced Wicca with Scientology and "Satanic worship" with "alien worship" or scam and stated my position very nicely.

Most people can't stand being wrong and certainly don't want to be wrong about religion.

[Emily_Cullen]

What is Wicca a type of religion cause I'm not for it :o

[onlymystory]

What is Wicca a type of religion cause I'm not for it :o

It seems a little rude to be against something when you don't know what it is. I'm sure you can find out a lot about Wicca by reading through this thread and if you still have questions I'll bet Siren would be happy to answer them. But don't jump in saying you're against something you know nothing about.

[GoldenMain]

Pagan's, Is Their Room For Us?

Ok, so being a Pagan i've come up agenst alot of guff as you might say, and i wont to ask if it's alright that i post on here as i find this subjet intreaging to be honest.

In the book's i do see alot of Christen refrance's but i also see alot of Pagan sumbolagey in them as well and, well befor i go off nattering away i wont to know if it's ok that i post up here about it as i dont wont to put anyone's nose out of joint or something like that :)

GoldenMain.
xxx

[Josh the Jester]

Pagan's, Is Their Room For Us?

Ok, so being a Pagan i've come up agenst alot of guff as you might say, and i wont to ask if it's alright that i post on here as i find this subjet intreaging to be honest.

In the book's i do see alot of Christen refrance's but i also see alot of Pagan sumbolagey in them as well and, well befor i go off nattering away i wont to know if it's ok that i post up here about it as i dont wont to put anyone's nose out of joint or something like that :)

GoldenMain.
xxx

I'm pagan..................no I'm kidding I'm a Christian, but anyways welcome to TDL :D

[GoldenMain]

Thank You, it's nice to know.

I can see so much pagan imagery in Narnia it's amazing, right down to the lamp post and the four quarter's, North, South, Est and West, and then you have the god & the goddess as well, their such a stronge pagan context threw out the book's as well as christen it remind's me of celtic christen's alot.
GoldenMain
XXX

[Yoo1029]

I'm pagan..................no I'm kidding I'm a Christian, but anyways welcome to TDL :D

I second that. Welcome! :)

Its true, yeah, that Lewis used A LOT of pagan references in the CoN books, but this was to point toward the fact that many legends and myths and yes, even some Pagan material points at Christianity and Christ as Lord.

So Lewis wasnt Pagan, but he was a Christian.

[GoldenMain]

I second that. Welcome! :)

Its true, yeah, that Lewis used A LOT of pagan references in the CoN books, but this was to point toward the fact that many legends and myths and yes, even some Pagan material points at Christianity and Christ as Lord.

So Lewis wasnt Pagan, but he was a Christian.

I know he was a christian, that's very true, but i dont think that Pagan material point's to christ as Lord, i know that Aslan was surpose to be god, in a sence, but he never seemed like that to me, he alway's seemed like the inbodymeny of the God. wild, untamed kind and careing, but ferice and unruley, something to be respect, like natcher :)

GoldenMain
xxx

[Yoo1029]

he alway's seemed like the inbodymeny of the God. wild, untamed kind and careing, but ferice and unruley, something to be respect, like natcher :)

You summed up God right there!

He is loving, but he isnt a tame lion. For example, when you sin, he loves you enough to care and punish you.

[GoldenMain]

Ahh, see now that's where i dont hold alot of truck with the hole God thing, no offence , i'm really not laying into anyone's belife here, oh yikkies i'm gunner get thrown to the lion's for this but...!

On that score you can't pitch that point as a pro for beliveing in god, bad thing's happen to good people, sometime's the bad guy's get away with doing bad thing's to good people, their's not alot you can do about it, it's natcher's way, that's what natcher is, it's a primel force govened by herself that no one can bend or tame.

Weather you are good or bad these consept's are human trate's, and that's something that human's invented, because we think beyound the primal force of our programming, we are animal's to a point, but we have evolved beyound our state of hunter, gatherer, and i'm not saying that in it's self is a good thing.

the consept of a highyer being that look's over and protect's the good one's and punish's the bad one's is something we ape's came up with when the sabertooth tiger's were knocking at the cave door, they are a form of comfort to quell our very basic primel fear's.

Ok, so maybe i've gone on a bit, and this might be a little beyound some reader's, for basically i'm saying i belive this, that the highyer being's i belive in have enoff trubble as it is running the planet and keeping it in cheek, without haveing to sort out the million's of people who everyday comitte some kind of 'sin' as it where, they run natcher and the animal kindom, yes including us, but they are not going to take time out to smake us around the back of the head for doing something bad, we have to look to our selve's and the world around us to sort ourselve's out. and hopefully by watching natcher, we learn the very rule's of her, in that life your life fully to the minute, because you will end up as someone's lunch one day, no matter what you think or do.

GoldenMain
XXX

[Narborg]

Wlecome!!!
You rase some intersting ponts. You say that bad things hapen to good people. How do you define a 'good" person?

BTW, this should technielly be in The Socratic Club, as its not about christiaity

[PrinceOfTheWest]

That, and we already had a thread about paganism, so I merged the two.

Those are good points, but I have an even more fundamental question for GoldenMain: where do you get your definitions of "bad" and "good" things? What makes a "bad" thing "bad"? Do you mean just "inconvenient", like if I went out tomorrow morning to find that I had a flat tire? Or do you mean "a morally evil act", like if I went out tomorrow morning to find that my tires had been axed?

And if you mean "morally evil", where do you get your defintion of what is evil and what is good?

This may sound like a challenge, but it isn't - it's an honest question and I'm honestly interested in your answer.

[Solya]

I am also a Pagan (hah, bet no one saw that coming :rolleyes: ) and I've read a little of this thread. I just had to jump in right now, but I'll certainly read it all when I've got more time for it. :)

I can see quite a few pagan references in Narnia, but the Christian undertone is much stronger. When I was younger I used to see more Christian themes in it than I saw the themes from Paganism, and I still think that's the case. It's also a matter of what you want to see in Narnia... if you're a Pagan you'll most likely see references to the nature-based worship, but if you're a Christian you'll see a whole story which merges into Christianity. Being raised as a Catholic but being a Pagan now enables me to see both sides in the story and they actually merge together quite well.

And as for Aslan being God... yes, he is. He is wild, caring, free-spirited, loving, gentle, ferocious, someone who earns respect despite his state of being an animal, and someone who can show you both the loving heart of Christianity and the unruly and free nature of Paganism. It all depends on your point of view. Everyone will get something different out of Narnia. It depends on what you believe in your heart and soul.

[GoldenMain]

Ok, first off, i'm glad no one has taken offence to my post, thank you so much :D

Right, what do i define as a bad or bad act, simple, whatever hurt's someone, weather it be threw vilance to someone because they are diffrent or have hurt you, to an act of vialation of someone's body, or mentel torucher, these i define as bad, their really is nothing good about them. Now i can take this tone one this subjet myself because as a child, i was vilated by someone my family thrught they could trust, it turn's out we were so very wroung and i payed the price for that, and you know what, nothing ever came of it, when i finally informed my mother eight months later, it was a simple sorry but it's your word agenst his, you should have spoke up when it happened. This man got away with what he did to me, he never payed for his crime, nothing bad happened to him, he lived out his life, and diead of old age, simple as that.

Now what i define as a good, or good act, that's simple, telling the truth. it's that simple, above everything else, befor love/lust/careing/giveing/friendship, you must alway's tell the truth, it may not be much to some people, but for me it is the foundaion of goodness, or good moralitey.

I do belive in an after life, the summer land's, but i dont know if i belive in hell, or a 'place where bad people go' i really can't say, and i wont find out untill i take that last great advenchur myself.

I also think that yes, their are both stronge Pagan and christen influance's in the book and i can see them very clearly, thow i will alway's see Aslan as more of the Pagan god type, other than Chrtien because he inbue's so meny charteristic's of the horned god Hurn, but that's my prefrance, it's intreating to see what other people see in the book's thow :)
GoldenMain
XXXX

[inkspot]

Welcome, GM. Of course your thoughts and opinions are welcome here! All of us have experienced bad things and seen bad people rewarded for their evil; in fact the Bible says the rain falls on the just and the unjust ... but I am very sorry for what happened to you.

When you say you define "good" as "telling the truth," how does that apply to actions? How can an action, or a result, be good or bad, if the definition of good is telling the truth? Actions and results don't "tell the truth" or llie, per se.

Do you mean a bad thing somebody did to me would actually be good, as long as he told the truth about having done it?

[GoldenMain]

No, that's not what I'm saying at all, i was talkin about moraliety, the start of it is telling the truth, speeking the truth no matter the conserquense's is a good thing, no matter where it lead's you, even if it lead's to your own downfall., you have to judge yourself on the action's not of other's, but yourself, the starting point for a sence of good it truth...I'm not getting this across very well :o . if somebody did something bad to you, then telling the truth was the good action, beating you up = bad, telling the truth about it = good but if they told the truth, when asked about it, Yes, that is a good action, it do's NOT, i repect NOT excuse the bad action at all, in no way shap or form, or make the bad action good, but the action of truthfullness is a good one. it dosn't make what the person did to you right, in anyway, but by telling the truth, good will come of it, other's will know what they have done and treat them acordingly.

Good action i belive is nothing without the intent behind it, anyone can do good action's, but if they have faulse intent, then that action is false, what's the point in it?

It's not hard to know right from wroung, but that's something you feel inside, it's in the lesson's you learn from an early age and from the action's of thow's around you, that effect your morel compass so to speek. my defintion, of good is truth, in that it is the starting point, or seed, from witch you grow out.
GM
XXX

[inkspot]

I see, thank you. let me be sure I understand you ...

For you, good and evil are concepts which you recognize inside yourself; there is no definition for you which would be the same for me, as my background could be far different from yours?

I'm remembering this tribe I read about, the Sawi in New Guinea, I think, whose greatest value was on treachery! They thought deceiving and defeating your enemies was really the best thing. So for them, treachery was good. But for me, coming from the Judeo-Christian background, treachery is evil.

Is this what you mean? That the same act can be good for some people and evil for others, based on how they feel about it?

[GoldenMain]

It sound's aweful, but Yes! you see, good and evil are thing's we have defined by our way of life, witch is why i think truth is as close to goodness as most people can get, it's a foundation, but it depend's on the tool's and metriel's you are given.

You've put forword a negative their, in going with the consept of treachery and decite as a tribe's founding vaule's, but look at some of the native Amacrican tribe's, who lived their live's by the law of the land, never takeing more than their share to stay alive, working with the land and the sea, and never being greedy. and then look at the white people and black people who came to that that land, you see negative and postive both side's.

Good and Evil are human cesep's, the Lion dosn't think about the Gasel when it pounce's, kill's and eat's, it dosn't take into acount that it had most likely a mother to a fawn, it dosn't take into account that maybe it has killed the last of a spicees, or changed the enviroment around it's self, it only think's of it's stumic, the food befor him and how that food will feed not only himself, but his family.

So is the Lion evil, because's he's just killed, hurt, mamed another animal?

It's intreaging isn't it, that good and evil are mearly concep's devised by man.
Yes we are not animal's, but, we came from Earth, we evolved from the sea, and ended up top of the food chain...so to speek, their are very primative gene's alway's at work in the human body, driving us to become more than what we are, to have children, to build family's, to bild safe place's to stay and to keep warm, and feed, befor relgien, we lived a hunter gather life style, the concept of right or wroung, good or evil did not excsiste, the quilty of life was good, it was a short life to be shure in some case's, but it was the best way of life for the human.

I'm not sayin we should all hang up our TV's and down our computer's, but just remeber what we came from and that Good and Evil, however they manafest themselve's, are still only that, a manafestation of our own morel compass that we harbour, build and grown not just by ourselve's but by the people and their action's around us.
GM
XXX

[inkspot]

right ... but then, there's not really much basis for society, is there, if good and evil are just concepts we made up, and they change from person to person? animals will mate with their siblings, and that's not evil, but we mostly consider that evil among humans. if i understand you correctly, you are saying it's only evil if i think it is, so if i don't think so, it's no problem.

that, to me, throws the whole concept of society and the rule of law out the window, because, you know, if i don't think it's wrong to rob you, then you shouldn't really prosecute me, as i've done nothing wrong.

i cannot agree with you that good and evil are human concepts and change from person to person or people group to people group. that would mean there really is no good or evil, and certainly I believe they do exist, and don't change. it's an interesting viewpoint, though, and I am curious how you manage with it.

if someone does you what you consider a wrong turn, but explain that they don't think it's bad to do that, do you feel okay with it? i wouldn't. but that's me ... :(

[GoldenMain]

No, i wouldn't feel ok with it, but i would understand it.

This isn't about what feel's right or wroung, it's the drive behind our understanding of the concept of right and wroung, good and bad, prue and evil.

We as a sosictey are govened by a set of rule's that were consived and thrught up by a gruop of men/women and we live our live's by them, new and old rule's comeing and going, changeing with the time.

Today it's alright for a woman to fall in love with whom ever she chosie's, and marry for the most part, but if she tryed that a few hundred year's ago she would be put to death, and called a wonted, evil woman.

It's all down to perception, i'm not saying i agree with it, but this is what i belive, just because you know the diffreance between right and wroung dosn't mean you'll choise right everytime.

So that's why i belive that good = Truth. at the end of the day you can only be honest with people and thow's around you, anything more than that and your into people's ideal's and perception's of right and wroung, good and evil.

We live by rule's that have been agreeded upon by the mass, everytime you vote you are agreeing to a policey, or set of ideal's in witch to live your life by.

I'm Pagan, and i vote labour...well i did but i'm bleedin well going to change that next time around *stupid tony blair grumbel, mumbel, grumbel*

As for doin it with your brother, sister, well their are very sound gentic concept's why you just dont do it, as for animal's they have no concept's of evil, they are just following their hormones. concepts that people would classify as good or evil can be observed as such in the animal kingdom.

for instance, meerkats! A male had been put in chage of babysitting the children, wylst the rest of the gruop were out lookin for lunch! a rivel gruop invaded their territory, the male guarding the kid's, took the pup's into the safty of the underground burror, and put himself between the pup's and the invader's. He ingaged the invader's, who out numbered him, he was killed as a result (you could say, if you were putting this in the human concept of good and evil, that this brave meerkat, was acting out of a desire to be good and the invader's who killed him, were cowdly and evil. This would be an inacuret assesment of both party's action's)

What was going on was survivel, nothing more, nothing less. the singel meerkat was trying to guarantee the survivel of the gruop by seeing that the youngsters came to no harm, and the invader's were trying to exband their teritory and their for their gruop size to maximise their gruop chance of survivel.

Both set's of actions were comptly in keeping with the way that this spices shoud live and indeed was desined to live. concepts of good and evil are comptly surpurflious. Human behavyer, classifide morrelly as good and evil can be traced back to these core instinces, witch we are all subjet to weather we like it or not!

It had not been proved conslusivel that human's are the only animal's on the planet that can reson. As we have yet to contplt understand the comunecation between all animal's, and indeed their are meny animal's that we dont understand in a borader sence it would be inacurate to say that human's are the only animals that can reson at a hiyer level.

You keep pointing out the negative point's in people, i have yet to see you point out a postive. I have never harmed anyone, i do an aweful lot for my family and friend's and i take great care toward's other people and their feeling's. I'm truthful with everyone and I've never been in trubble, these concept's of good and evil are something i takel on a dayly bases, but they dont rule my life, i know it's wroung to inflick pain on someone, because that is the way i have been brught up.

I respect life in all it's form's and also respect the right for people to chose!

Well i think i've explained it enoff, but if you dont get it, then you dont get it, it's ok, i'm not going to hunt you down and say, I AM RIGHT, YOU ARE WROUNG, we all have a right to belive what we do, dosn't mean a belife has to rule your life ;) :D

GM
xxx

[inkspot]

Sorry, I am not trying to bust your chops on this issue. I am truly curious about your view of good and evil. You seem to be saying there is no such thing, and if there isn't, then anythng goes, you know. Why bother being "good" if good and evil don't really exist? It's a point in Buddhism and Hinduism as well, that there's no good and evil, just what is. I am just curious how people who believe this live.

Both set's of actions were comptly in keeping with the way that this spices shoud live and indeed was desined to live. concepts of good and evil are comptly surpurflious. Human behavyer, classifide morrelly as good and evil can be traced back to these core instinces, witch we are all subjet to weather we like it or not!
It's not chiefly true, you know. Some animals will make a stand to protect their young, that's an instinct for preservation of the species. Some humans wil do the same, that's an instinct, too. But some humans, who have been raised to believe in good and evil, believe it is "good" to risk their lives to go back say, for someone they don't even know, whose life is in danger -- a human who wants to "do the right thing" will risk his own llife to drag another, weaker human being out of danger. But no zebras go back to try to rescue the one which the lion is about to bring down.

I don't think good and evil apply to animals; they have instincts to show them how to behave, and as you say, some of these instincts we share with them. But a sense of right and wrong, morality, good and evil, this will cause humans to do painful things just for the sake of doing what's right -- not things which will preserve their lives or preserve the species or benefit them in any way, but things which hurt and yet must be done, in order to live right, to be good.

This being the case, I think good is indeed a reality, not just something people thought up.

In any case, as you say, you don''t have to believe that. But if you really think, as you claim, there is no such thing as good and evil, then I wonder if you ever demand that others be fair to you, or treat you with justice -- because, if I understand you correctly, you don't believe there really is any fairness or justice; just people's ideas about them ...

[GoldenMain]

Please forgive the disjointedness of this post, if it dosn't make sence that's ok, cos i am totelly shattered after a day out with friend's and children, we had a great day but we is all exhaused :D

No, you got a point their i surpose. As i was saying, i dont belive in the human concept's of good and evil, as is set down by some people, i belive Truth is the foundation of goodness, it's very hard to explain, but like i said that's the fun of a good debate :D

I never asked for justice or any of that stuff because i dont belive inr evange, but i do ask that people take responsiblity for their actions and be truthful about it, i dont need to seek revenage because we live in a socitey that sort's all this out. we have law's witch goven us on how to live, on what we can and cant do and how to teach each other.

You do somethign agenst that law, then you pay for it with prison/death/suspended sentance. The law is that witch if free of compassion and emotion, it is the law, absolute. Their is nothing about good and evil in the law, that i can see, or have found.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GM
Both set's of actions were comptly in keeping with the way that this spices shoud live and indeed was desined to live. concepts of good and evil are comptly surpurflious. Human behavyer, classifide morrelly as good and evil can be traced back to these core instinces, witch we are all subjet to weather we like it or not!

Quote:
It's not chiefly true, you know. Some animals will make a stand to protect their young, that's an instinct for preservation of the species. Some humans wil do the same, that's an instinct, too. But some humans, who have been raised to believe in good and evil, believe it is "good" to risk their lives to go back say, for someone they don't even know, whose life is in danger -- a human who wants to "do the right thing" will risk his own llife to drag another, weaker human being out of danger. But no zebras go back to try to rescue the one which the lion is about to bring down.

I don't think good and evil apply to animals; they have instincts to show them how to behave, and as you say, some of these instincts we share with them. But a sense of right and wrong, morality, good and evil, this will cause humans to do painful things just for the sake of doing what's right -- not things which will preserve their lives or preserve the species or benefit them in any way, but things which hurt and yet must be done, in order to live right, to be good.

Like i said about the survivel instinc thing, It's at a genetic level, yes some people, who have been brught up with these morel's about right and wroung will risk their life to save a stranger. I would do, and have done myself, notbecaue it's good, but because it is right, something comptly diffrent.

Good and Evil, Right and Wroung are two diffrent thing's all togeather. I dont think it right to inflicked pain of any sort on someone, the same as i dont think it right that i just walk past someone who is being hurt, it's not right. Good and Bad dont come into that, because they are to do with your morel consence, not your action's.

Right and Woung are defined by the law with witch we live. it's very easy to get them mixed up, at lest that is what my Uncal had alway's told me, he's in the Royel Navey. So he's got a front row seat when it come's to this sort of thing.


Good and Bad happen inside the mind, you can help somebody all your life, that's a right action, but you dont have to think it's nice, you could be wishing them dead really, that's a bad thrught, but your doing the right thing in helping them.

It's just how i've alway's seen thing's, I can't help thinking outside the box ;)

GM
xxx

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Actually, GM, you'd be surprised to realize just how far "inside" the box you're thinking. The attitude toward right and wrong that you're proposing is extremely common in today's culture. It's called "relativism", and it means that everyone makes up their own definitions of right and wrong.

One big problem with relativism is that people can't live together like that. If you and I both make up our own definitions of right and wrong, and if I really like the coat that you're wearing, then what is to prevent me from taking it? You may say it is wrong for me to take something that belongs to you, but I may say it is right for me to take the coat because I really, really need it. Which one of us is right and which is wrong?

[inkspot]

I never asked for justice or any of that stuff because i dont belive inr evange, but i do ask that people take responsiblity for their actions and be truthful about it, i dont need to seek revenage because we live in a socitey that sort's all this out. we have law's witch goven us on how to live, on what we can and cant do and how to teach each other.
Justice is not revenge. It is the concept which should protect you from what PoTW described above. It would not be just for him to take what is yours simply because he can.

You agree there is a right and wrong, different from good and evil. But on what do you base the judgment calls about right and wrong? You say our laws define that for us, but someone had to write the laws. How did they know what was right and wrong, for all of society, not just themselves? I am curious upon what you think the law is based, if there is no good or evil?

Like i said about the survivel instinc thing, It's at a genetic level, yes some people, who have been brught up with these morel's about right and wroung will risk their life to save a stranger. I would do, and have done myself, notbecaue it's good, but because it is right, something comptly diffrent.
Again, what is the difference? If to do "right" is not to obey and instinct, what makes it right if not an underlying principle of what is good?

Good and Evil, Right and Wroung are two diffrent thing's all togeather. I dont think it right to inflicked pain of any sort on someone, the same as i dont think it right that i just walk past someone who is being hurt, it's not right. Good and Bad dont come into that, because they are to do with your morel consence, not your action's.
So you are saying RIGHT is a concrete thing, and good and evil are just how we think about the actions connected with the concrete thing, RIGHT?

That, I can understand. So in fact, you are not defining your own right and wrong; we are not as individuals expected to define our own right and wrong. You are saying there is an eternal principal of right and wrong, and this does not change from society to society. Good, this is what I believe as well.

What I would like to know now is: how is this concrete idea of RIGHT defined, if you do not believe it was laid down by God, nor does it originate in nature (as we have observed in the example about the lion and zebras)?