I wonder why shift...

[Tsukiko]

I wonder why shift didnt get turned into a dumb and witless animal from our world while he was lying to the Narnians...he was being bad and aslan told the animals in MN if they were not good, they would turn back to dumb, witless animals. Just like Ginger turned back to one...Shift should have at like the very beginning when he was lying to the Narnians

[Lady-of-the-Lion's-Mane]

I agree...but who's Ginger? I don't remember a Ginger...

[Queen Lucy the Valiant]

thats a very good piont. But who is Ginger????

[Tsukiko]

thats a very good piont. But who is Ginger????

Ginger is the cat in the last battle, who was helping shift and the calormenes...dont u remember?

[Aravis Kenobi]

That is a good point, TrueNarnian. I never thought about Shift being turned back into a speechless animal. Maybe Aslan didn't want him speechless because of the battle before the true Narnians got thrown into the stable.

[Apple_Of_Life29]

thats a really good thought...but maybe because shift was also being manipulated as well? i remember a part saying that he was also being used....idk :o

[Señor Puntos]

If Shift was turned into a dumb and witless beast, then that wouldn't make for a very good story would it?

thats a really good thought...but maybe because shift was also being manipulated as well? i remember a part saying that he was also being used....idk :o
After a while the Calormenes and Ginger played on Shift's greed and power and manipulated him to do their will.

[Tirian of Narnia]

Maybe Aslan new that it was time for Narnia to end and he used Shift to do it.

[Señor Puntos]

Maybe Aslan new that it was time for Narnia to end and he used Shift to do it.
Would Aslan really condem someone to Hell for something he could have done himself? That's not what the Aslan I know and love would do...

[Tirian of Narnia]

Just a thought.

[waterhogboy]

Would Aslan really condem someone to Hell for something he could have done himself? That's not what the Aslan I know and love would do...

But Aslan gave every creature in Narnia the gift of life, isn't it Aslan's, or technically the emperor over the sea's right to decide what to do with their/his creation??

[Tirian of Narnia]

I think Aslan new what Shift would do and used him to end Narnia. It was Shift`s choice to do what he did.

[Señor Puntos]

But Aslan gave every creature in Narnia the gift of life, isn't it Aslan's, or technically the emperor over the sea's right to decide what to do with their/his creation??
I'm not saying He has no right to do it, but I'm saying that it's something He wouldn't do. But does he really have the right to condem someone to Hell just because he made that someone? Isn't that like saying builders can destroy a childrens hospital because they made it?

[waterhogboy]

I'm not saying He has no right to do it, but I'm saying that it's something He wouldn't do. But does he really have the right to condem someone to Hell just because he made that someone? Isn't that like saying builders can destroy a childrens hospital because they made it?

Ah- but the builders have a higher authority to whom they are responsible - Aslan has NO higher authority.

[Tirian of Narnia]

Exept the emporer beyond the sea.

[waterhogboy]

Exept the emporer beyond the sea.

Very true!!!! LOL

[Señor Puntos]

Ah- but the builders have a higher authority to whom they are responsible - Aslan has NO higher authority.
Ok, maybe that wasn't a very good example.....

(This is from an atheist point of view)
A man impregnates a woman and she gives birth to boy. The man and woman made the baby, but they have no right to torture the boy and then eventually kill him do they? If God wanted to do that to someone there'd be no-one to stop him, but I don't think that's the type of thing a loving God would do.

I don't think I'm phrasing my argument very well...

[waterhogboy]

Ok, maybe that wasn't a very good example.....

(This is from an atheist point of view)
A man impregnates a woman and she gives birth to boy. The man and woman made the baby, but they have no right to torture the boy and then eventually kill him do they? If God wanted to do that to someone there'd be no-one to stop him, but I don't think that's the type of thing a loving God would do.

Hmmmm.... - thats a good analogy as you said comin from an athiest point of view - and it works!!! I would argue that the man and woman DO have a higher authority and then no rigt to kill the child.

You say you dont think its something Aslan would do. We know n the books that Aslan is good, not tame - in fact theres no reason why he shouldnt eat you!??! But he is good. Doesnt that give you assurance that whatever Aslan (or the Emperor over the sea!!) does - it is gonig to be right and good - because thats what Aslan is!??!

[Señor Puntos]

Hmmmm.... - thats a good analogy as you said comin from an athiest point of view - and it works!!! I would argue that the man and woman DO have a higher authority and then no rigt to kill the child.

You say you dont think its something Aslan would do. We know n the books that Aslan is good, not tame - in fact theres no reason why he shouldnt eat you!??! But he is good. Doesnt that give you assurance that whatever Aslan (or the Emperor over the sea!!) does - it is gonig to be right and good - because thats what Aslan is!??!
Would you say creating someone for the sole purpose of destroying a world and being condemed to Hell for all eternity good? No, me neither.

[Tirian of Narnia]

God didn't make us his pupets, he doesn't control every thing we do. But he does know that some of us will dissapoint him and that he will have to send us to hell. Aslan didn't make Shift do what he did, he simply new it would happen. :)

[Mar]

dont forget that God gave man a free will. thats important to go along with the puppet thing.

[Señor Puntos]

dont forget that God gave man a free will. thats important to go along with the puppet thing.
I think Tirian and Mar have nicely closed the puppet argument for us :)

Even though me and Hog's argument (more of a discussion really) was more to do with what God can do with us.

EDIT: I just remembered that in Citizenship we did some work on Rights and Responsibilitys. As the first ever actual thing he has a responsibility to be good to all the other things he spawns, otherwise he'd be a monster.

[Tsukiko]

yeah well i was just wondering lol, i didnt many ppl would even look at the thread

[inkspot]

What did happen to the monkey? Something worse than becoming a dumb, witless animal, I think. Didn't Tash carry him away? Or, what happened to him? I can't remember.

WHB has too harsh a view of man's responsibility to God or vice-versa. Jonny, you should go over to the free will vs. destination Thread and groove on the love and compassion of the Creator ...

[Tsukiko]

i think he was thrown into the stable

[Tirian of Narnia]

Tirian(Coolest Narnian ever) through him into the stable. After that, Tash pecked his brains out. :D

[inkspot]

Hah! I knew something bad happened to him. So he got even a worse punishment than the kitty who turned into a dumb animal.

[Tsukiko]

Yeah. i didnt like Ginger...or Shift! but I dont feel sorry 4 Puzzle....

[PuzzleGlum]

Actually, I think in "The Magician's Nephew", Asland told the talking beasts not to go back to acting as dumb beasts, or they would go back to being them. Shift did the opposite; he went ahead and said he was a man.

[~Lava~]

First off, we must note that Shift was most likely drunk (Poggin says when he is telling them what had happened since the King's escape that the ape had taken to drinking and Shift complains about his head hurting on the way to the meeting) and was already just about as useless as a dumb beast by the time he met his doom with Tash.

Secondly, Ginger became a dumb beast after he was literally frightened out of his mind when he found out that Tash was real. Especially since he did not believe in the existance of higher powers (either good or evil).

Thirdly, Shift's death was so quick that I don't think he had a chance to become a dumb beast. Being as drunk as he was, he would have been numb to his surroundings.

EDIT: Shift was swallowed by Tash in one peck: "[Ed] My sister is so tender-hearted she doesn't like to tell you that Tash made one peck and the Monkey was gone!(TLB, How the Dwarfs Refused to be Taken In)"

[PuzzleGlum]

Aslan's words from "The Magician's Nephew" directly state that the Narnian beasts would go back to being dumb beasts, if, and only if, the talking animals started acting like regular animals.

The faun (I believe it was a faun) who said that Aslan said that if they acted bad they would go back to being animals, was mistaken. Or by "bad", he meant "dumb". That's nothing more than threatening the animals to be good. Which isn't Aslan's style.

Basically, they'd go back to being dumb if they acted dumb. Not evil.

Shift was not acting as a dumb monkey at all. In fact, he demanded to be called a man. He even wore clothes and got drunk. He didn't turn back into a dumb beast because he didn't act like one.

After Aslan woke up the animals, he said "Do not go back to their ways, lest you cease to be talking beasts. For out of them you were taken, and into them you can return. Do not so." (I'm paraphrasing a bit).

[~Lava~]

Shift did act in a dumb manner by letting his power (or the pretenses of it that the Calormene let him have) go to his head. Ginger did not act dumb either, one might say that Ginger acted in a smarter manner than the Ape. Lewis makes it clear that he intended that poor behavior (during the Last Battle) would mean the eventual change into a dumb beast by saying that the animals who looked at Aslan with hatred became dumb.

[PuzzleGlum]

Lewis makes it clear that he intended that poor behavior (during the Last Battle) would mean the eventual change into a dumb beast by saying that the animals who looked at Aslan with hatred became dumb.

I hadn't thought of that. Nevertheless, I think that's an isolated example. It was the end of the world for Narnia, so the talking beasts had to end up somewhere (and as far as I know, there is no eternal torment in Narnia).

I guess I should define what I meant by "dumb". When I say that Shift didn't act dumb, I mean that Shift did not act like a common monkey.

This is what I thought Aslan meant at the beginning of the world. Being "dumb" meant going back to the ways of the regular beasts. Aslan never said anything about being "dumb" in the sense of acting unwisely. Aslan was warning the talking beast about going back to the ways of the wild ones.

This is also hinted at in "Prince Caspian". Trumpkin tells the Pevensies "when most of the beasts have gone enemy and gone dumb..." implying that there are both. So enemy animals couldn't have become dumb, because there are both types around. In the movie, Trumpkin says that if the beasts are treated like dumb animals, that's what they eventually become.

So basically, the talking animals of Narnia would only turn dumb if they acted dumd, that is, like their feral counterparts.

These debates are fun!

[~Lava~]

That is what I meant, in the night leading up to End. Poor Behavior=becoming Dumb for the beasts.

[PuzzleGlum]

Yea, but the question on this forum was why didn't Shift turn into a dumb beast. I'm sure he did at the end (unless Tash swallowed his soul). But he didn't turn back into a dumb beast in Narnia because he wasn't supposed to. Evil beasts only turn dumb at the end of the world. In Narnia, they only turn dumb if they act like normal animals.