Jadis and the White Witch

[<(+_+)>HYPER<(+_+)>]

Don't know if this has been asked before but here goes...

In the Magician's Nephew, Jadis has long black hair and a colorful dress but in TLWW she has white-ish hair and the white dress...Why? :p

[MrBeaver]

That's a movie fluke. You can see in the original illistrations in both books, she looks the same.

[pink-cheetah]

hey, yeah....

well, she'll probably have blonde hair in MN, because, in LWW, pauline baynes' illustrations show her w/black hair.

[lions mane]

u guys! member she ate the forbidden apple and her color changed? she turned as white as salt in T.M.N.

[~JadisTheWhiteWitch~]

yeah that apple streagthen her powers or made her Immortal or something like that but in the process it made her an albino

[Saruman]

The apple, in fact, made her immortal (like an elf in LOTR - she could be killed, as we see in LWW). Though I do believe Lewis said she had black hair, I still love the Tilda Arian look much better. It adds a tremendous beauty overlaying the wickedness within. Gives me the shivers!

[<(+_+)>HYPER<(+_+)>]

Oh! Because I read the Magician's Nephew with color pictures and that;s what she looked like :p On TLLW pictures, her hair looked kinda white-ish, like ice

[Crimson]

she looks the same in MN and LWW in the books the illusrations look the same, but isnt that Jadis in the silver chair? as the lady of the green kirtle since Jadis can never die...but Aslan did kill her...and that apple always made her live forever,...but when aslan killed her did she come back to life and enchant rilian to try and take over narnia again thru him??

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Nope. That's been a point of great debate on this forum, but there's no indication that the Emerald Witch/Queen of Underworld was the same person as Jadis. Lewis offers no explanation of her origin, and only indicates in a couple of places that she was "the same type" as Jadis (i.e. a witch from the North), but doesn't indicate that she was some sort of Jadis redivivus.

[Crimson]

yea thats what i thought...if she was Jadis or not cuz Jadis did eat that apple so she could live forever..but i suppose even if she does die like in battle than she'll die forever not by getting old and dying..

[Apple_Of_Life29]

actually i think the apple made her young forever, not live forever. she just would never grow old.

[LadyofGreenKirtle]

Yeah, I believe it made her young forever, too.

And no, she's not the Lady of Green Kirtle. They are of the same kind, but are not one in the same. And as they said earlier, it's been a great debate.

[Euphrates]

Aslan says the apple gave Jadis "endless days" which means her days won't end, not that she'll always be young.

And there's a strong indication that Jadis is the Green Witch in the Silver Chair based on their similarities.
For example, the White Witch is associated with cold right? Well, after Eustace, Puddleglum, and Jill encountered the Green Witch on their way to the giant's place, it became very cold. So cold, in fact, that it was a main reason the children decided to go to the giant castle the Witch had recommended. *Almost like she made it cold...

Also, the Dwarves that rescued Jill, Eustace, Puddleglum, and Rilian were doing the Great Snow Dance. Interesting, huh? And the Green Witch had promised Prince Rilian a place of nobility, just like the White Witch promised Edmund a place of nobility. Their tactics are very similar.

Furthermore, Jadis tempted Digory in the garden in MN. Kind of like a snake, right?

I also think that the poem in The Silver Chair hints that the Green Witch was once the White Witch, because Rilian says something like "she knows it well" or something that I read as "she knows what it's like".

And, of all the places to attack, the Green Witch is attacking Narnia. Keep in mind that enough time had elapsed between LWW and SC to hatch a new plan and enslave the underground men.

But the main point is that Aslan says that Jadis will have "endless days", so I don't see how the WW could have died unless we can distinguish between Jadis and the WW. Like the WW was a personality of Jadis, and so was the Green Lady.
Jadis and the Green Witch are just as similar as Jadis and the White Witch. The main difference is that Lewis explicitly stated that Jadis is the White Witch. It's not for certain, but there's quite a bit of support for the Green Witch being another personality of Jadis.

[Apple_Of_Life29]

in the MN, Aslan says "endless days like a godess" which may indicate that she just may be young like a goddess forever. also, in LWW, after the battle is over, it says something about the animals on Jadis's side seeing"either the Witch was dead" or something like that...

also, wasnt the underground hot, not cold? i dont know if i remember right, but i thought it got hotter when they went down into the Underworld

[shmeepie]

yeah, i always thought that jadis just couldn't die from old age or disease/sickness, a bit like the immortals in 'the immortals' quartet, and the 'protector of the small' quartet, both by tamora pierce, if anyone has read them (extremely good books!), but she CAN die through someone actually killing her, like lopping her head of in battle or something.

and i personally don't think that the lady of the green kirtle is jadis...i think aslan killed jadis good and proper.

[LadyofGreenKirtle]

yeah, i always thought that jadis just couldn't die from old age or disease/sickness, a bit like the immortals in 'the immortals' quartet, and the 'protector of the small' quartet, both by tamora pierce, if anyone has read them (extremely good books!), but she CAN die through someone actually killing her, like lopping her head of in battle or something.

and i personally don't think that the lady of the green kirtle is jadis...i think aslan killed jadis good and proper.

No, I don't think it's her, either. It says that they are one of the same kind (meaning alike, not identical). If they were identical, then it would say something like "one in the same" or somthing.

I just don't think they're the same.

[Saruman]

I think our own LGK has hit the nail on the head regarding this issue. We learn from Glimfeather that this LGK is "one of the same crew." It is likely, as I've said in some earlier debates, that she was just a servant of Jadis (and please understand, I'm not saying they were contemporaries!). Even though the White Witch was killed, her spirit forever separated from her body at the first Battle of Beruna, a handful of her followers survived (remember in Prince Caspian, the hag and the werewolf, clear supporters of the late Jadis).

I say the LGK was a servant because her goal was obvious: she wanted to carry out vengeance on Narnia, perhaps carrying with her an age-old hatred shared by several supporters of the WW. Jadis was long gone, but not forgotten.

[~JadisTheWhiteWitch~]

I think our own LGK has hit the nail on the head regarding this issue. We learn from Glimfeather that this LGK is "one of the same crew." It is likely, as I've said in some earlier debates, that she was just a servant of Jadis (and please understand, I'm not saying they were contemporaries!). Even though the White Witch was killed, her spirit forever separated from her body at the first Battle of Beruna, a handful of her followers survived (remember in Prince Caspian, the hag and the werewolf, clear supporters of the late Jadis).

I say the LGK was a servant because her goal was obvious: she wanted to carry out vengeance on Narnia, perhaps carrying with her an age-old hatred shared by several supporters of the WW. Jadis was long gone, but not forgotten.
I agree with you both on this

[Euphrates]

Briefly:

"endless days like a goddess" has nothing to do with youth. In fact, if Jadis was able to die her days would have ended and she would no longer be young because youth relies on life.

If Jadis died in LWW, Aslan would have been mistaken in MN.

There are many stories of gods and goddesses in Greek and Roman mythology fighting each other, but none of them ever die. The titans were gods but could not die, so they were trapped and imprinsoned. I've never heard of a goddess in any mythology being killed. In the Aeneid there's a part where the gods battle in front of Troy as a joke because everyone knows they cannot die. "endless days like a goddess" may mean that Jadis cannot age, but also (and more importantly) means that she cannot die.

Glimfeather said that the WW and the GW were of the same crew, but he was spouting rumor. In fact, what "crew" was Jadis a part of? She came to Narnia without friends. She ruled Narnia by herself. And if you are right and she died... what crew? There are lots of examples of characters in Narnia getting their facts wrong, and I think this is one.

[Apple_Of_Life29]

wtvr...then why did it say that the animals saw the witch was dead at the end of the battle in LWW??? oh well. i think this and you think another.

[Saruman]

Briefly:

"endless days like a goddess" has nothing to do with youth. In fact, if Jadis was able to die her days would have ended and she would no longer be young because youth relies on life.

If Jadis died in LWW, Aslan would have been mistaken in MN.

This is a misapplication of Aslan's words in TMN. He said that she would have endless days as a goddess, meaning to say that she would not be susceptible to diseases and to illnesses, or to ageing. He never once implied that she would or was or could ever be an actual goddess, one with equal authority as Aslan. She ate the fruit of life and could live forever. She was as susceptible to being killed as any other being was. In no way did Aslan suggest she could not die (otherwise he would never have killed her, and we would never have read that the Witch "was dead"). Oh, did I mention that Jadis died in LWW? We read that she did. :D

Glimfeather made no rumor. In speaking of LGK as being "of the same crew," he meant to say that she probably had something to do with the White Witch, or had some sort of "investment" in similar goals and/or designs as the White Witch did (i.e. her strong hatred towards Narnia). It was meant, all the same, to say that she was not the White Witch. In no way was he saying that Jadis "had a crew" or anything that could go along those lines.

[~JadisTheWhiteWitch~]

This is a misapplication of Aslan's words in TMN. He said that she would have endless days as a goddess, meaning to say that she would not be susceptible to diseases and to illnesses, or to ageing. He never once implied that she would or was or could ever be an actual goddess, one with equal authority as Aslan. She ate the fruit of life and could live forever. She was as susceptible to being killed as any other being was. In no way did Aslan suggest she could not die (otherwise he would never have killed her, and we would never have read that the Witch "was dead"). Oh, did I mention that Jadis died in LWW? We read that she did. :D

Glimfeather made no rumor. In speaking of LGK as being "of the same crew," he meant to say that she probably had something to do with the White Witch, or had some sort of "investment" in similar goals and/or designs as the White Witch did (i.e. her strong hatred towards Narnia). It was meant, all the same, to say that she was not the White Witch. In no way was he saying that Jadis "had a crew" or anything that could go along those lines.

I agree on that

((muhaha you could say I'm Jadis in spirit J/K:D :p hehe I had to say something funny cause that's the way I'am))

[Aravis Kenobi]

I'm glad Curumo cleared that point up. I always use to think that Jadis and the Lady of the Green Kirtle were the same person. Guess I was wrong. :)

[waterhogboy]

Yeh - there is a difference between immortality and invincibilaty.

[Euphrates]

This is a misapplication of Aslan's words in TMN.
:D Misapplication :D
I'm only quoting Aslan and explaining in simple terms what that necessarily means. In fact, we see that you are adding meaning to Aslan's words:
He said that she would have endless days as a goddess, meaning to say that she would not be susceptible to diseases and to illnesses, or to ageing.
I'll lay it out in a deductively logical way.

1. Jadis has endless days.
2. If Jadis died, her days would end.
C. Therefore, Jadis cannot die.

I see nothing about diseases or ageing or illness in Aslan's words. I never said that Jadis was a real goddess; only that "endless days like a goddess" means that she cannot die because goddesses cannot die.

In no way did Aslan suggest she could not die (otherwise he would never have killed her, and we would never have read that the Witch "was dead"). Oh, did I mention that Jadis died in LWW? We read that she did.
Ok. Not only did Aslan suggest that Jadis could not die, but he explicitly stated that she could never die. If she died, her days would have ended. Aslan says that her days cannot end.

I see an account of the White Witch dying in LWW, or (at least) appearing dead to her followers. If we distinguish between Jadis and the White Witch, we can account for both the WW's death and Jadis' endless days. If the WW was only a personality of Jadis, the whole story works out.

Also, it is clear that Glimfeather is not fully informed about the Green Lady, judging by his vague and ambiguous statement.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

I think you guys are making way more out of this than Lewis ever intended. Remember, this isn't Scripture, and Lewis was a casual and inconsistent fantasy writer (as his peers were quick to point out). When he wrote Lion, he thought that was the only Narnia story he'd ever write. The others were add-ons, and Nephew in particular was "backfill" - trying to tie up some ends as best he could. Even as it was, he left some gaping holes (e.g. how did Mr. Beaver know so much about Jadis' geneaology in Lion, that she was descended from some kind of crossbreeding of giants and the descendents of Lilith? Where would anyone learn such a thing?)

From the stories proper, it's clear that Jadis began mortal (remember, she needed special spells to put her in suspended animation in the Hall of Images in Charn.) Though she ate the apple of the garden and thus gained "immortality", this did not mean total freedom from death. Rather it was more like the immortality of Tolkien's elves - they would not sicken or die, but could be killed. When Aslan killed her on the Beruna battleground, she died. This is confirmed in Caspian at Aslan's How, when the point is brought up and not disputed - she died at Beruna. The hag suggests she can be "brought back", but the context is that of a necromantic operation much like a seance. Such things are intended to establish communications, and perhaps invoke the dead as a source of power or guidance, but not to bring the dead back to life (besides, the witch's body was long decayed.)

As far as the connection betwen Jadis and the Queen of Underworld - that's a persistent mistake traceable (from what I can see) to the fact that the same actress played them both in the BBC series, and a faulty cover blurb on one printing of the books. There is not one shred of evidence in the texts themselves that they are the same entity. Basing any such conclusion on an offhand comment by Glimfeather or the dwarfs in the cave at the end is an argument from silence: i.e. because Lewis doesn't fill in any details about a "line" of northern witches, therefore there must not be one, therefore Jadis and the Emerald Witch are the same person.

If you're looking for influence on Lewis for the creation of the Emerald Witch, particularly her serpentine form, you're better looking in Charles Williams' Place of the Lion. In the chapter Triumph of the Angelicals, Miss Wilmot gives herself over to the Elemental Power of Subtlety, which manifests in the form of a serpent. She is transformed before the eyes of the protagonist Anthony, and the description is almost identical to the description of the Emerald Witch transforming after her failure to re-enchant the Prince and the travelers. Williams was a strong influence on Lewis, and it seems to me that this is a more profitable interpretation than trying to stretch the stories to fit the hackneyed old "Jadis=Emerald Witch" argument.

I'm afraid we're all going to have to live with the fact that Lewis didn't tie down his fantasy as tightly as we wish he had. Trying to force his mythology into some sort of Procrustean bed wherein every 'i' is dotted and every 't' crossed is a recipe for frustration.

[inkspot]

Trying to force his mythology into some sort of Procrustean bed wherein every 'i' is dotted and every 't' crossed is a recipe for frustration.
I hated my Procrustean bed -- uncomfortable, and hard to make in the morning. :)

[PrinceOfTheWest]

I hated my Procrustean bed -- uncomfortable, and hard to make in the morning. :)
I know - and you can never get the right size sheets. They always have to be altered....

[Euphrates]

Though she ate the apple of the garden and thus gained "immortality", this did not mean total freedom from death. Rather it was more like the immortality of Tolkien's elves - they would not sicken or die, but could be killed.
I don't see any of this in Lewis' writings. Applying Tolkien's idea of elvish immortality to Lewis' idea of "endless days" is a misapplication. I respect your views very much, as well as your way of supporting yourself, but I'm telling you what Lewis says and you are guessing at what he means.

When Aslan killed her on the Beruna battleground, she died. This is confirmed in Caspian at Aslan's How, when the point is brought up and not disputed - she died at Beruna. The hag suggests she can be "brought back", but the context is that of a necromantic operation much like a seance.
I think you are adding the necromantic part into the story, also. The death of Jadis is, indeed, disputed in PC when the hag says something like "who ever heard of a witch that really died?". "Brought back" doesn't necessarily mean "brought back from the dead". You can bring back someone who is alive.

As far as the connection betwen Jadis and the Queen of Underworld - that's a persistent mistake traceable (from what I can see) to the fact that the same actress played them both in the BBC series, and a faulty cover blurb on one printing of the books. There is not one shred of evidence in the texts themselves that they are the same entity.
I've heard this before, but it is mistaken. I concluded that Jadis was the Green Lady from the text alone... as have many others. If the note left at Tumnus' house in LWW had not made reference to "Jadis", I am 100% sure that the same people who reject Jadis as the Green Lady would reject Jadis as the WW. The text is clear about the identity of the WW, and not as clear about the Green Lady. But, to suggest that there is no evidence in the texts ignores many of the arguments and observation made by people like me.

If you don't want to look at the texts carefully because Lewis was inconsistent, that's fine. That could simply mean that both sides of the debate have legitimate positions. I'm fine with that. I've offered a theory as to how Jadis could have endless days and the WW could have died in LWW. I think it could make both sides happy. :)

[Apple_Of_Life29]

The end! some people think WW is Kirtle Lady, some people dont. Its all a matter about how you interpret yhe text. :rolleyes: If only Lewis was more clear!!!!!

[inkspot]

I think he's pretty clear the WW is dead at the end of LWW, and the LGK is someone like her.

[♣Teh Deviant♣]

In an IGN Interview with Skandar Keynes ( :D ), Tilda Swinton says that she suggested that Jadis, as the epitemy of all evil should be like a white supremicist. And that she should be Aerian. Because in WWII, who would have been the epitemy of all evil for the Pevensies? The Nazis.
Thats why she's so light in the movie, I believe.

[inkspot]

That makes sense, I never thought of that. I like the way she looks, even though it is different from what I pictured in the movies.

[LifeMaiden]

Tilda Swinton's definitely got that Master Race/Aryan thing going for her and I don't even mean that in a bad way...that fair skin, strong features, and height...enviable!! :)

[~JadisTheWhiteWitch~]

Tilda Swinton's definitely got that Master Race/Aryan thing going for her and I don't even mean that in a bad way...that fair skin, strong features, and height...enviable!! :)
I agree with you on that my friend

[LifeMaiden]

When Jadis mentions these other worlds she destroyed other than Charn, the three worlds of Felinda, Sorlois, and Bramandin, it makes you wonder just where else she'd been. I had thought maybe these worlds she destroyed came before Charn.

[I♥Georgie]

will she have dread locks :confused:

[LifeMaiden]

That certainly was an interesting hairstyle in the movie for the White Witch :D

[Narborg]

Thas because it was origanlly ilustrated in bach and white, so it looked like the hear was blac.

[I♥Georgie]

in her inter veiw Tilda said it was like roots :confused: :) ;)

[LifeMaiden]

Roots? Like wearing tree roots?

[I♥Georgie]

I don't know what kind of roots :( :confused: