Would another C.S. Lewis please step forward? [Archive] - The Dancing Lawn

Wallis

03-15-2005, 09:47 PM

One important thing to remember when writing a story is that we do not want to copy something that is already out there.

I've written my share of stories (a few are available on my website), and the lesson I have learned over the years is that imitation is nice, but originality is more desired.

I see that there have been references linking LOTR and CON. Tolkien and Lewis were friends at some levels and corresponded with each other. What they shared was a love of mythological lore.

In any future allegory (BTW, Tolkien claimed many times that his trilogy was not an allegory of any kind), the world that is created for the enjoyment (and possibly education) of the reader should be fresh and exciting. Look at how many different ways the Bible relates it stories: parable, poem, short story, allegory, history.

So, if an aspiring writer wishes to bring the concepts of Christian love and redemption alive under a new guise--even in the "now" world, there are so many fresh ways to tell the old, old story. And not just a rehash of something formalaic that worked before, a problem that still plagues the entertainment media.

tgraveline

03-16-2005, 10:18 PM

yes yes, i do not believe my story will be much of a rehash of their stuff, mine takes place in the world we live in today, but with historical facts mixed with fiction. So to not give away too much, there you have it.

tg

Euphrates

03-22-2005, 03:21 AM

inkspot

03-28-2005, 04:20 PM

That sounds like a great story, Euphrates.

waterhogboy

03-29-2005, 05:15 PM

That could be really interesting because you have the scope to write almost anything you wish. Very little is mentioned about Charn so you can make up your own ideas.

Legolas1212

04-05-2005, 06:03 PM

GoldenRod22, you are so right! I always wish there were more innocent fairytales, but not fairytales exactly... more like Narnia, which isn't exactly a fairytale.
I've been trying to work on it myself, but I always come up with a super idea and then realize it's been used before! :mad:
Lol, so you can see the problem... besides, publishers don't usually like Kids work.

inkspot

04-05-2005, 06:30 PM

I should put this in the "What Are You Reading?" thread, but did anyone read "Shadowmancer" and "Wormwood" by someone named Taylor? They are kids' books. I just got them today. A friend of mine told me he has a shot at writing the screenplay for Wormwood if the first one, Shadowmancer (which is being produced now, I take it) does well as a movie. It sounded interesting.

rosymole

04-05-2005, 06:52 PM

I've heard of 'Shadowmancer' - and I beleive the guy who wrote it is a Christian - not totally sure tho. It does have the sort of title that draws me in tho!

As for the 'new CS Lewis' thing - there may well in the future be someone who writes stories that touch people in the same way, but if you consider how quickly literature has moved in the past 100years or so it will have to be pretty spectacular to make a massive impact, or is that just me being cynical?

Legolas1212

04-05-2005, 06:54 PM

No I've never read those.

inkspot

04-05-2005, 10:21 PM

Actually, Rosy, today's literary (at least mega-bookstore) environment gives a single book a BETTER chance to make a huge impression, I think. At least in the States, we have big chains of bookstores, and they tend to push forward their top-sellers, so the publishers are looking only for the next John Grisham or Anne Rice who is going to be prolific, and whose every book is going to be a bestseller. Although it's tougher for a small author to get published, if an author's work does sell, the publishers and bookstores here really publicize him. Does that make any sense?

Dragon

04-05-2005, 10:32 PM

imitation is nice, but originality is more desired.
I agree. The way I see it, is this:

Immitation is a way for the creator to learn the basics of something: piano players playing pieces written by others, artists going to museums to copy the paintings, movie-makers making remakes.

Originality, however, is a way for the creator to grow in the medium, and tends to be more entertaining and pleasing for the audience.

Legolas1212

04-08-2005, 07:41 PM

Wow, that's a really good way of putting it. :D

Eruname

04-09-2005, 09:18 PM

I absolutely loved all of c.s. lewis' works, but he was very much influenced by George MacDonald, who I believe to be an excellent author. He was the very first real Fairy Tale Writer, and he was also a Christian. Both authors and J.R.R.Tolkien have influenced me as well, and I am now an author. I think that the chain of Fairy tale writers will continue going on, supported by the lovers of the ones who came before them. But if you haven't read George m's books, they are really superb.

Legolas1212

04-10-2005, 10:37 AM

I've read his books! They're good. :D I really liked the Lost Princess and that one... errr... what was it called? The Princess and Curdie or something like that? Well, ti was a long time ago. I should reread them! :)

Eruname

04-10-2005, 09:08 PM

my favorites are the Light Princess and The Golden Key...

pacifiquesea

04-11-2005, 09:43 PM

Phantastes is also good, it's all I've read of his fairy tales, though I've read the excerpts of his that C.S. Lewis put together - it's a great collection, and you can see Lewis uses every one of MacDonald's ideas in some book or another.

waterhogboy

04-13-2005, 10:51 AM

Yum! I love MacDonalds!

Legolas1212

04-14-2005, 06:30 PM

*rolls eyes*

Euphrates

04-15-2005, 03:25 AM

Has anyone here ever read a book called Interstellar Pig? I read it a long (long) time ago, but always thought it was a really great book for fans of fantasy. As I recall, it's a short book, but detailed and fully developed. I don't remember who wrote it, but I recommend it.

Edit to add: the author's name is William Sleator, and apparently he also wrote a book called Parasite Pig.

Legolas1212

04-15-2005, 06:22 PM

I have not

inked

04-16-2005, 12:05 AM

Here's what I wish for. Why can't more writers try their hand at innocent, fairy-tale like stories such as LWW? Sure, C.S. Lewis is a master writer and storyteller, but I think that what he tried to do has not been tried again for a long time. Remember how popular 'Harry Potter' was when it first came out? I think the biggest reason why is because of the imagination that went into it, not the storyline so much. If other people tryed to write a (better) kids story again like that, what kind of impact would it make??! C'mon, writers. The next generation of kids needs new, classic good-hearted 'fairy tales' to grow up with.

You have your wish in your hands, Goldenrod. JK Rowling is doing what CSL did. And doing it so well that just as Lewis indicated about his Space Trilogy, most readers are missing the obvious sources of the story. I quote:

"You will be both grieved and amused to hear that out of about 60 reviews only 2 showed any knowledge that my idea of the Bent One was anyting but a private invention of my own. But if there was only someone with a richer talent and more leisure I think that this reat ignorance might be a help to the evangelisation of England; any amount of theology can now be smuggled into people's minds under cover of romance without their knowing it."
CSL's letter to Sister Penelope, July 9, 1939 / LETTERS of C.S. Lewis, p 167

And as a longtime reader of Narnia (>30yrs!), I think JKR does a very good job of getting "past watchful dragons" and engaging minds with great Good News just as CSL does.

What do you think of those ideas?

waterhogboy

04-16-2005, 11:21 AM

What do you mean by Good News?

inked

04-16-2005, 11:26 PM

Good News is the New Testament term for the acts of Jesus. In English the word gospel is equivalent. The Good News in Narnia is Aslan. But I do not mean that Aslan is a one-to-one match with Jesus. CS Lewis said that it was an imagination of the Incarnation and Redemption in another world, so there are similarities in the stories.

waterhogboy

04-18-2005, 05:28 PM

Oh thats interesting - you think theres references to the NT in HP????

inked

04-18-2005, 06:24 PM

Yes. In each of the books so far. Check out www.hogwartsprofessor.com for some essays on the topic. Particularly the essay on HP and the Chamber of Secrets. I did not write them, but I think them very well done. There is also one comparing JK Rowling to the Inklings style of writing that I think is very good. Both Lewis and Tolkien used vivid imagery to communicate the nature of reality including nature and supernature. JKR is doing the same sort of thing. We can read all of CSL or JRRT that's published and come to conclusions about their abilities and successes. JKR is still midstream her work and we are in the process of evaluating. But the folks in the years of the publications TCON and LOTR were doing much like us! :)

waterhogboy

04-19-2005, 03:24 PM

Do you think that's possible considering JKR isnt a Christian??

inked

04-19-2005, 06:39 PM

Waterhogboy,

JK ROWLING is a member of the Church of Scotland. Do you have evidence that she is not a Christian?

waterhogboy

04-20-2005, 05:53 PM

Really!? I didnt realise. That does change things then. I dont know. Id heard rumours of her being associated with the occult but they probably are just VERY much rumours.

inked

04-20-2005, 06:25 PM

Lots of people have falsely accused HP of promoting the occult. But they made the same accusations against Narnia and Middle Earth. The magic in HP is backdrop and not real spells from practicing magicians or occultists. In fact you might wish to check out in depth JKR's remarks in this area and you can research them here: http://www.madamscoop.org/themes/therules.htm

This reference site will allow you to track what the rules of the Potter-verse are. :D

Just as Narnia and Middle Earth have their rules for their settings, so does HP.

If this subject interests you, I drew out quite a bit of Christian symbolism in HP and COS over at entmoot.com. I will edit in the specific thread for you to check out.

edit: http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=11779 Particularly posts #39 forward. Let me know what you think!

waterhogboy

04-20-2005, 06:26 PM

OK Cheers. That looks interesting.

inked

04-20-2005, 06:32 PM

Also, there is an excellent book that discusses this matter by John Granger, LOOKING FOR GOD IN HARRY POTTER. It is available at [url]www.hogwartsprofessor.com [url] or via Amazon, B&N, Christian bookstores, etc.

inked

05-11-2005, 11:13 AM

For those interested, here is an article on alchemy and its real world nature and status, its use in drama and fiction apart from HP, and its use by JK Rowling:

http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/16.9docs/16-9pg34.html

ENJOY! :D

Goldenrod22

05-13-2005, 12:24 PM

Hello again, Inked. Goldenrod here. I can't believe you used my post to start in on Harry Potter again. :( Once again, you are using the websites that you list as a cover for what you have not been able to say by yourself. So far, the arguments you list have not been backed up by clear, rational statements.
Here is an example of what I'm saying is in the books:
--Divination/Spellcasting. "We will be covering the basic methods of Divination this year" (Prisoner of Azkaban, page 103)
"All students should have a copy of each of the following: 'The Standard Book of Spells' (Grade 1)" (Sorcerer's Stone, page 66)
--Werewolves and other Animal Transformation [Transfiguration (4th Degree)]
"Transfiguration is some of the most complex and dangerous magic you will learn at Hogwarts" (Sorcerer's Stone, page 134)
"My transformations in those days--were terrible. It is very painful to turn into a werewolf...[My friends] became Animagi...They could each turn into a different animal at will" (Prisoner of Azkaban, page 353-354)
--Magical Lore [History of Magic] (5th Degree)
"Their very last exam was History of Magic" (Sorcerer's Stone, page 263)

As you can see, kids reading these books can easily find books of the same topics in the Occult section of the bookstores.

Here's a few samples of kids responses to the books (found on website of Rowling's publisher):
"I like what they learned there [at Hogwarts] and I want to be a witch." (Gioia Bishop, ten years old)
"I thought the story really made you feel like you could be a witch or wizard." (Lily, eleven years old)
"This book is amazing and contains magic spells I wish I can do in the real world." (Wang Wen, twelve years old)
"I think Harry Potter books are absolutely fine!...I like how they can use witchcraft for fun/good purposes." (Devon, eleven years old)
"I wish Hogwarts were real because then I could go and learn magic instead of quadratic equations." (Mairead, thirteen years old)
"The book made me want to go to Hogwarts. It is a school for teaching magic. I would like to learn magic, but I havent gotten my letter of invitation yet." (amazon.co.uk post, age unknown)

Now here's a quote from JK Rowling herself.
"Not even one time has a child come up to me and said, 'Ms. Rowling, I'm so glad I've read these books because now I want to be a witch."

Sorry, JK. They are saying it (maybe not to your face though), you just have not been listening.

And neither are you, Inked. You can't seem to see that the concepts in Harry Potter are not the same as those in Narnia or LOTR. Harry Potter is not founded on morality, but rather on a 'whatever goes, as long as I get what I want' mentality.

How many examples of Harry (and friends) bad behaviour do you need to see before you can stop to realize how harmful it is to children? If kids are shown that a 'good' character will routinely steal, lie, cheat and seek revenge with a clear conscience, then why shouldnt they do the same?

I disagree heartily that the same principles are shown in Narnia. How could they be? It would not be even imaginable for C.S Lewis' characters to do the same actions without moral consequences in the end. That is the big difference in the two authors; one (Lewis) has consequences for bad actions, while the other (Rowling) has the actions themselves rewarded! In other words, 'the ends justify the means'.

Biblically speaking, Harry and all the other 'good' characters are simply using one set of sinful behaviors to defeat another set of sinful behaviors.

It is not, nor will it ever be, a battle of 'good versus evil'. And to even place the brilliant works of C.S. Lewis in with Rowling's books is blasphemous.

Rowling has found a way to work her occultist views (yes, she does have those views, regardless of where she goes to church) into the hearts and minds of many 'eager to learn anything new' children.

Oh and by the way. Rowling may go to a church, but going to church does not make you a Christian. It is what you believe in your heart to be true that makes you a Christian (and also acknowledging that Jesus is the Son of the Living God and your personal Lord and Savior).

Please, Inked. Try to understand where I'm coming from on this.

inked

05-13-2005, 01:28 PM

GR22,
It would appear you didn't migrate over to the Entmoot discussions I wrote.

Oh, I do think I understand your point of reference, GR22.

As limited a view of the ability of God to work through literature really surprises me though in a person who appreciates LOTR and Narnia. How many magic beings do you note in each?

Particularly, remember Lucy making Aslan appear in house by her incantation of the spell to make the Duffers visible. Recall Aslan's words there!

And, recall that I specifically renounce Mr Abanes diatribe and false premises.
Please note that I was responding to WHB as well. I think you're feeling a bit egocentric in your last post :p ! Also, you are a bit free with words regarding blasphemy and your attributions of others motives. You don't live in a glass house, I hope? :rolleyes:

I would like to direct your attention to THE SCREWTAPE LETTERS and SCREWTAPE PROPOSES A TOAST. There Mr. Lewis employs a technique known as irony while literarily committing blasphemy after blasphemy as you seem to understand the term.

WE have vastly different views on JK Rowling's work. That is permissible. I happen to be "absolutley, undeniably, re-aliably sure" as Glenda the Good Witch was in the movie version of THE WIZARD OF OZ that the "wicked witch" you imagine is dead. In fact, you may yet join the chorus of Munchkins singing that lively tune as you travel the yellow brick road of life.

However, if you wish to lambast the WoZ too, please do so on another thread. There we can go at it hammer and tongs without hijacking this one! :D

judyfromkansas

05-13-2005, 02:11 PM

judyfromkansas

05-13-2005, 02:17 PM

Someone needs to write the story of what happened in Charn before Digory awakened Jadis. The story of Charn and the early life of Jadis would certainly be a story worth reading! The deplorable word and such... ooooh I can picture it now. What a wonderful story that would be!

I've got this theory about Jadis' family being the ruling class of spiritual beings on Charn that lived the corporeal bodies of the people of Charn. It's actually quite an interesting theory that preserves events in the Chronicles. I just don't have enough time to think it through and write about it. Oh, the life of a working college student. Alas.

That's a good idea. What I'd like to see is the story of Susan - what became of her after her brothers and sister were killed in the train wreck (as told in the "Last Battle"). As a child I was shocked and saddened to learn that Susan was no longer a "friend of Narnia". And just because she was into makeup and boys! It's not like she joined a cult or something! That development never did sit well with me. But then, neither did the Armegeddon allegory that made up the bulk of "Battle". I hated that book and have not read it more than once. IMO, that's when the use of allegory - which Lewis' friend Tolkein so deplored - overwhelmed the storyline. Suddenly Lewis turned from storyteller to prostelizer. Major bummer IMO.

judyfromkansas

05-13-2005, 02:17 PM

judyfromkansas

05-13-2005, 02:19 PM

Yum! I love MacDonalds!

Me too! "The Light Princess" is fall-down funny. Didn't know MacDonald was such a wit until I read that. Reminded me - in a good way - of "Fractured Fairy Tales"! One of my all-time favorites!

waterhogboy

05-13-2005, 04:18 PM

Heehee - I meant the restaurant - Ive not heard of the author.... :D

I think HP's fine. I think the kids that make those comments are a bit naive cos I was young when I read em, but I didnt want to sart looking into magic. If you start saying things like that then most books should be considered bad cos theres always something in a book that a person could take too literally...

inked

05-14-2005, 12:02 AM

of interest:

"I believe in God, not magic." In fact, Rowling initially was afraid that if people were aware of her Christian faith, she would give away too much of what's coming in the series. "If I talk too freely about that," she told a Canadian reporter, "I think the intelligent reader - whether ten or sixty - will be able to guess what is coming in the books."
FANTASIA:THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO C.S. LEWIS by Michael Nelson, published in THE AMERICAN PROSPECT, volume 13, number 4, 25 February 2002.

and this, see Part 4 of this long interview:

http://www.cbc.ca/programs/sites/hottype_rowlingcomplete.html

and multiple references quoted and cited here:

http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=11779&page=4 post # 79

all for your reading and perusing and thinking pleasure/1 :D

Evelien

05-14-2005, 02:16 PM

I am a huge HP fan as well as a Narnia and LoTR freak. In all of those, magic is very prominant and plays an integral role.

However, I think that the type of people who have HP as one of the most banned books are just looking at the surface. All that they see when they read it is witch craft and spells. However, when you read these stories, it is very obvious that the authors are not writing about magic and such, but a deeper meaning such as Christianity in Narnia's case.

As long as people are reading these types of books for the stories and the lessons, not the magic, then I don't think it's much of an issue.

holyboy

05-15-2005, 07:46 PM

what i find when i listen to people diss the HP books is that they never actually read the book...they just think its evil and thats the end of that, never read it in ur life. But what people fail to reconize, as Evelien pointed out was there are many christian values in the books, and that is what kids usually pick up; not the magic or the misbehaving, but the values, and isn't that the most important thing?

inkspot

05-16-2005, 02:00 PM

I just started reading book one in HP (then went on the road and forgot it!) but I will say so far, as symbolism goes, it could go either way.

First, there's a defeat of evil and a huge celebration over an infant Harry, which sounds Christian -- a celebration over the birth of Christ, and tidings of great joy.

Then there's a young boy of great promise growing up in obscurity, which is also a picture of the Christ Child.

But then there's the lightning bolt scar on Harry -- Jesus said he saw Satan "fall like lightning," which could mean a lightning bolt scar is Satanic.

And Harry's first extraordinary event that we witness is his communication with a snake, and of course the first biblical snake was the devil himself.

But I've only read the first few chapters of the firstbook, so this is all very premature!

holyboy

05-16-2005, 06:27 PM

*****SPOILER ALERT!!!!! Harry Potter #4 Spoilers!!!!******

I just started reading book one in HP (then went on the road and forgot it!) but I will say so far, as symbolism goes, it could go either way.

we have to remember that NOT EVERY BOOK IS BASED ON THE BIBLE. the question is not, "is hp based on the bible" but "is hp acceptable for young catholics to read?"

from what we see in the books, it is a fight of good and evil. many people don't like the books because, as they say, " Evil triumphs because Voldermort takes H blood, which was the intension of the whole book" (fourth book). However, to counter this aurgument, we could say one simple thing...THE BOOKS AREN'T FINISHED!!! we don't no if evil triumphs in the end...cause the end hasn't been written

inkspot

05-16-2005, 06:47 PM

Yah, that's true. I will post again when I get back into the book.

inked

05-17-2005, 12:20 AM

Harry is not supposed to be Jesus the Christ, Inkspot. He is Everyman, as in a medieval morality play, or Joe Christian (or Joanna Christian, if you prefer).

See www.hogwartsprofessor.com for some information in this regard by John Granger. He also has a book LOOKING FOR GOD IN HARRY POTTER which is in the series you have encountered in LOOKING FOR GOD IN LOTR as you mention somewhere.

inkspot

05-17-2005, 11:08 AM

** HP Sorcerer Stone Spoilers**

So what about his special powers? Not Everyman has magic powers. I thought, because he was the toast of the (magical) town from the time he vanquished Voldemort (sp? sorry) as a baby, he was something special, the chosen one like Anakin and so forth?

Or do the magical powers serve as a loose metaphor for the power that is ours through Christ?

If he is supposed to be any ordinary Christian, I don't get the special powers. But as I say, I just got started in the book.

holyboy

05-17-2005, 02:48 PM

So what about his special powers? Not Everyman has magic powers.

** HP Spoilers**

what you have to remember about kids books is who they r geared to. children like to read books that have children as the hero, and children having special power. that is why this book is so interesting to younger readers.

Now, to the book version on why he has special powers....

We don't no why he is special. We don't no because we don't no what will happen @ the end of the book. We don't even no if the prophesy in 5th book applies to HP (yes, i no the book has provided evidence on HP applting to the prophecy, but JK's style of writing is 2 lead you down one path, then add a twist)

inked

05-17-2005, 04:50 PM

From a post over at Entmoot.com by yours truly:

Well, I think Harry is an Everyman in the same way that Dante is an Everyman in the Divine Comedy. In the latter, we see through Dante's eyes and experience what he does. The same is true in Harry Potter and to a much greater degree in terms of revelation of thoughts and emotions and dreams. And, we don't get the same sort of information in the same ways from Hermione or Ron or any other character. Our entire experience of Hogwarts is via the external, internal, and self-perceptions of Harry.

And I agree that Harry is special. Every human is special in the same way as Harry. We all fight Voldemort. His angst about being the chosen one is our angst when we have to make the decisions about daily lives and character.
And what you say about his specialness in relation to Dumbledore and the other characters is true - only Harry can be Harry to each of them and be unique in his opportunities. But this was and is equally true for each of the other characters IF the story were written from their point of view as it is from Harry's. And Harry is/maybe a Christ figure in the same way as each of them is/could be were the story told from their point of view, or not (if that is the choice finally made). So I contend that Harry is the Everyman from the structure of the book, the way the characters are delineated, and the way they interact.

On a related note, Harry makes all the important decisions about his character and development as he becomes capable of handling them, hence his angst. But all adolescents go through this in the normal development process AND, importantly, all persons continue to go through this as they face the trials and temptations of life and adulthood, middle-age, and older years. This process never ends in this life. And that is why I think Harry is Everyman and appeals to adults and children. (Did you know that greater than one-third of all HP books are thought to be purchased by adults for themselves! There is one company in England that makes them available in plain brown wrappers so persons reading in public transport or places won't be "embarassed"!) I think this appeal comes from the fact that we all are at Hogwarts everyday of our lives, and we all are uniquely placed and gifted, and we all face Voldemort, and it is a fight to death for each of us.

inkspot

05-17-2005, 04:54 PM

Yes, I see why the character's having magical power is appealing to kids reading the book.

But if as Inked says the HP series is a morality tale in the same vein as CON, then there is only one way HP could have the powers and be a child of prophecy/promise, and that would be if he were the Christ symbol, wouldn't it?

I can't square the things that make Harry look like the fulfillment of prophecy/chosen one, etc, if this is a semi-allegory like Narnia, unless HP is a type of Christ. Who else was a chosen child in our faith?

I am not saying that HP books are an allegory, but I understood Inked's point to be that JKR is now doing what Lewis and Tolkien did, with her HP tales, and so I was trying to investigate that claim.

If you look at the books as just good entertainment, not any kind of symbolism/Christian allegory, it's perfectly fine for Harry to have all kinds of powers and be a special prophesied boy, of course.

inkspot

05-17-2005, 04:56 PM

Every human is special in the same way as Harry. We all fight Voldemort. His angst about being the chosen one is our angst when we have to make the decisions about daily lives and character.... I think this appeal comes from the fact that we all are at Hogwarts everyday of our lives, and we all are uniquely placed and gifted, and we all face Voldemort, and it is a fight to death for each of us.
Sorry, Inked, you and I were posting at the same time. I see now what you are saying.

inked

05-31-2005, 05:51 PM

Of interest to those reading HP, Lewis, and Tolkien:

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0001/reviews/jacobs.html

Enjoy! :D

Goldenrod22

06-01-2005, 01:15 PM

Hello, everybody. Inkspot, you're right on the money!
I'm so glad someone else is actually agreeing with my point of view.
I just wanted to ask Inked what he thought of the previous post I made stating children's direct responses to the HP books.
The things they said, right from posts they made on that webpage, are rather revealing about what kids really feel about the books.
Inked, I'm supposing you are a full grown adult. Could you maybe consider what an impact this may have on kids, even if you do not agree with me?

After all, despite the fact that you are a 'well-learned' ;) adult, there are kids out there who may not know anything other than what is presented to them when they go to the library and pick up a HP book. They don't get to hear what I and other concerned people are saying, mostly because our few, small voices are drowned out by the likes of media, online chatrooms, and positive book reviews (Look, J.K. Rowling had one thing in mind with writing an occult-type book: MONEY! C'mon, you can't possibly think it was all about 'writing a sweet children's book'? Tee hee!).

People like Richard Abanes are rare in that they are being ignored by the majority of HP readers. HP is all about making a 'modern' tale that no one will object to because it is 'new' and 'raw' (I'm sure everyone knows by now about the gruesome 'Nearly Headless Nick').

Yuck. I can't stand seeing most of the new books for kids. Has anyone seen the 'Teen Witch' books? :eek:

inked

06-01-2005, 05:37 PM

GR22,

Try the link above your post. :p

And, I'll have you know, that those evil, vile, despicable Narnia books can entrap children into magick and spells, what with the witches, and the sacrifice, and the fauns and satyrs,... ;) !

Mr. Abanes is in error as I have iterated before.

My children had Narnian clothes made by their grandmother. They acted out their favorite parts of the books and made up their own Narnian adventures. It is the same with children and Harry Potter. NO more, NO less.
The imagination of the child is not being fettered to evil spirits or moral degeneration by covens of witches and warlocks because they enjoy a very traditional form of story-telling. Unless you really intend that the Wizard of Oz, the Wicked Witch of the West, and all those Munchkins do the same! Or, the arch-villain of how many fairy tales and nursery tales!

Ack! Ack! Run for your lives! They are everywhere!

Now, what about your protests of TV amd film themes on these lines? Has there been a huge impact on Satanic cultist enrolment from say, Star Trek (Mr. Spock had pointy ears!) or Bewitched (housewives ensnared by Devil over twitchy-nosed houseworks?) Buffy the Vampire Slayer? Or, for historical reference, in what I assume your parents' time, an upswing in vampires over the TV Soap Dark Shadows?

And lets not forget advertising! Billions of children ensnared into witchcraft by Lucky Charms cereal (IT's magically delicious!) or Keebler's elves cookies (Are they diabolically good, or it that DEVIL'S cake you're eating?).

I could go on and on as you apparently should if your critique or Mr. Abanes were consistent. And what about those Saturday morning cartoons? There is a fertile field for demonic influences~galore!
***********

OK, end of rant! but obviously I do not agree with you or Mr. Abanes on the alleged baleful influence of JKR or HP. It may hearten you to know that I do not agree with many literary critics that the writing is sloppy, inartful, or drivel, either.

You really should check out LOOKING FOR GOD IN HARRY POTTER by John Granger, 2004, Tyndale House:

Publisher's Preface

Dear Reader, Some may wonder why a publisher of distinctly Christian books would publish a book about the Harry Potter series, which, while phenomenally successful, has been criticized by some groups within the Christian community. The answer is really quite simple.

Millions of ourng people are reading the Harry Potter books, providing parents with a wonderful opportunity to use the stories their children love to read to start discussions with them about Christian ideas and values - and about how to evaluate the worldview imbedded in any piece of literature. We hope LOOKING FOR GOD IN HARRY POTTER will serve as a catalyst for such discussions and as a bridge to growth in faith and spiritual understanding.

The Publisher

So, you see, GR22, there are other viewpoints of HP and JKR than the unfortunate one you seem to have only had access to (by choice or accident, I do no know). Recall Our Lord's words that it was not what went into man (he was referencing foods) and passed through, but what came out of the heart rather that was important! True of food, it must be true of ideas as well.

On the other hand, I recommend to you the film THE GODS MUST BE CRAZY which is the expose of the evils of a Coca Cola bottle dropped among aborigines! Or, is it really about the locus of evil within humanity and human choices?

inkspot

06-01-2005, 07:13 PM

The link Inked posted led to an interesting article that was written after the third HP book's release, and which had the following real gem in it:

Near the end of the second book, after a terrifying encounter with Voldemort—his third, since Voldemort had tried to kill Harry, and succeeded in killing his parents, when Harry was a baby, and had confronted Harry again in the first book—he confesses his doubts to Dumbledore.

"So I should be in Slytherin," Harry said, looking desperately into Dumbledore’s face. "The Sorting Hat could see Slytherin’s power in me, and it—"
"Put you in Gryffindor," said Dumbledore calmly. "Listen to me, Harry. You happen to have many qualities Salazar Slytherin prized in his hand–picked students. Resourcefulness . . . determination . . . a certain disregard for rules," he added, his moustache quivering again. "Yet the Sorting Hat placed you in Gryffindor. You know why that was. Think."
"It only put me in Gryffindor," said Harry in a defeated voice, "Because I asked not to go in Slytherin. . . ."
"Exactly," said Dumbledore, beaming once more. "Which makes you very different from [Voldemort]. It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." Harry sat motionless in his chair, stunned.
Harry is stunned because he realizes for the first time that his confusion has been wrongheaded from the start: he has been asking the question "Who am I at heart?" when he needed to be asking the question "What must I do in order to become what I should be?" His character is not a fixed preexistent thing, but something that he has the responsibility for making: that’s why the Greeks called it character, "that which is engraved."

This is a beautiful parallel to the very Christian idea that while we all are born evil and have the power to do evil, we can choose to do good --I would add, we can do good when Christ is at work through us. I am thinking maybe Inked is on the right path.

inked

06-01-2005, 09:38 PM

Inkspot,

Glad you liked the article.

I want to disagree with you that we are born evil. Do you really intend that?
Did you perhaps mean totally depraved in the Calvinistic mode?

At any rate, I can assert that was not Mr Lewis' belief as illustrated in TCON, the books of the Space Trilogy, nor in his more specifically theological writings.

What the Anglican Tradition would say (and does say very explicitly in the Thirty-nine Articles) is:
"IX. OF ORIGINAL OR BIRTH SIN.
Original sin standeth not in the following of Adam (as the Pelagians do vainly talk) but it is the fault and corruption of the Nature of every man, that naturally is engendered of the offspring of Adam; whereby man is very far gone from original righteousness, and is of his own nature inclined to evil, so that the flesh lusteth always contrary to the Spirit; and therefore in every person born into this world, it deserveth God's wrath and damnation." BOOK OF COMMON PRAYER, 1979, ECUSA, page 869.

I think there is a vast difference between "born evil" and "very far gone from original righteousness, and is of his own nature INCLINED to evil". The former is overstating the case in the same way but in the opposite direction from the "born innocent and able to follow God's law perfectly" of the Pelagians. The former goes even further than total depravity, IMHO.

But, do I misunderstand you?

waterhogboy

06-02-2005, 01:30 PM

No. I agree with Inkspot. We are born evil, every human is, the one exception being Christ, who because of his perfection died so that all others may be saved...

inkspot

06-02-2005, 03:11 PM

whereby man is very far gone from original righteousness, and is of his own nature inclined to evil, so that the flesh lusteth always contrary to the Spirit; and therefore in every person born into this world, it deserveth God's wrath and damnation.
I agree with this ... perhaps it is just semantics. I believe the Bible says, "There is none righteous, no, not one" (Romans 3:10) and "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way" (Isaiah 53:6). It means that we are sinful, all of us, no exception,right?

But of course I don't believe babies or innocents with no unerstanding of good/evil will go to hell if they should die or anything like that.

Goldenrod22

06-03-2005, 01:23 PM

Dearest Inked, Goldenrod here. HAhaha tee hee. You really are a riot. :)
You know, if HP wasnt promoting their 'good' characters as being 'good' when they are practicing REAL magick,then you might have a valid point. But, unfortunately, you are wrong.
Because they do. In Bewitched, the main character does not use real, valid magick (Can you show me even one example of her using divination, necromancy, etc.? How about exacting revenge on enemies using a spell that causes them to become 'stiff as a board'? Consulting a medium? Hmmm. Didnt think so).

Hagrid, a 'good' character, drinks excessively.
Mr. Weasley, a 'good' character, breaks the rules.
Did I mention Harry's glowing example yet? Oh. Well, he lies (so sweet!), breaks almost every rule set up by the school (Well, I guess that means that our school kids are allowed to get mad and bring a gun into school...yeah! Break the rules, kids!) and practices magick that can be imitated by normal kids (Little Susie says: "I'll go pick up a book on Magick spells at the library! If Harry can do it, so can I.")
But, I guess my vivid and completely wrong (That's what you say) viewpoint is just my imagination.

Oh yeah. I forgot to mention that the 'foolproof' examples you gave of 'Witch' characters are all mistaken. They are all bad characters (The Wicked Witch, etc.) and they do not leap from their standard roles as such.
HP does not always follow this, as you can see by Harry's obvious actions.
Sometimes good...oh,wait, now he's bad...good...bad...bad...bad...good...I'm confused.

I love it how Rowling sends such clear mixed messages! :D

P.S. You still didnt reply to my quotes of real kids responding to Potter! And what ABOUt those delightful 'Teen Witch' books I mentioned?

inkspot

06-03-2005, 05:15 PM

GR, what did you think of my post on the previous page in which Harry comes to the realization that it is his own choice whether to be part of Gryffindor, the "good" house or Slytherin the "bad" house? I can't tell how the stories will end, but it seemed to me a positive note that Harry is thinking about the evil that could be resident in him, and how to get rid of it and use only the good?

Granted, I don't expect to hear a confession of Christ as Savior by the end of the series, but neither do we hear that in Narnia or Middle Earth (far from it).

The article from which I drew that lengthy quote made me feel better about Potter et al, because it showed that there could be a Christian framework for the books, developing as the stories develop -- or at least a way that parents can frame a discussion of HP within the paradigm of good and evil, Christianity and character development, etc.

It's something to think about, anyway.

waterhogboy

06-03-2005, 05:19 PM

I agree with you Inkspot, but I think youll find as you read further on in the series, that Harry's character begins to degenerate rather than improve unfortunately... :(

inkspot

06-03-2005, 05:23 PM

I agree with you Inkspot, but I think youll find as you read further on in the series, that Harry's character begins to degenerate rather than improve unfortunately... :(
Say it isn't so! I was just beginning to like the series! (I still haven't started book 2 yet.) :(

inked

06-03-2005, 11:56 PM

Harry's character doesn't degenerate! He is being made new! You have to understand the process of losing one's self to find oneself to get that! If you observe a person shedding the old and inadequate and putting on the new man, do you think it will look like a fashion show? Really, where in literature has that been the case, ever?

Think Shakespeare, troops! The tragedy and the comedy! Think Dante, The Divine Comedy! :D

waterhogboy

06-04-2005, 12:39 PM

So are you saying its right for teenagers to be rebellious, rude, arrogant and disregarding of rules..... as long as they become good upright adults?

inked

06-04-2005, 12:56 PM

I am saying that this is the process which teenagers go through on their way to maturity. Now, WHB, you may certainly throw the first stone if you have been always obedient, never rebellious, always correct in manners and deeds, never whining or complaining, never had a bad day in mood, never been surly, never been confused, and always made the absolute correct choice when posed with two potential evils as to which was the lesser, and bore the consequences without whimpering or complaining!

All this whining amongst folks about Harry not being a perfect child (whatever they mean by that in their intentions) really misses the whole point of the coming-of-age genre. Now the general culture has made that the first sexual experience in films and novels and fiction. HP addresses those other areas of life ignored in large part.

I truly do not know where to direct you or anyone else looking for the elusive perfection you require. As the Gospel truly records, Jesus had to learn obedience in the family as well as to God - that is, he had to go through the learning and maturing and self-chosen path to obedience. All learning is process for humans (and he was fully human as well as fully God).

I think the confusion arises that people confuse breaking the rules with sin. They are not identical. Jesus clearly broke the family rule about returning to Nazareth, and he was on the carpet for it with his family at the Temple when they finally found him. Was that action correct? NO. Did Jesus practice excuse? Yes. Was it a sin? NO. Was it a learning experience? YES! Was it fairly typical teenage thing to do? Yes in the failure to tell his parents and ask their permission; no, in that most teens aren't going to Temple for theological discussion. BUT, note the outcome: Jesus returned with Mary and Joseph and GREW in stature and wisdom (!) with God AND man.

So, even Jesus doesn't meet this unqualified rule-keeping perfection espoused as the height of virtue; not as a teen, and CERTAINLY not as an adult. But, he remained without sin, for as Hebrews has it, he was like us (humans) in all points, save (except) he was without sin. Did he have moody, irritable days? As surely as he had diaper rash! Neither are sin! :D

waterhogboy

06-04-2005, 01:23 PM

Hey - wheres your evidence that Jesus had moody irritable days??? Tradition???? :D

No - Jesus was completely perfect. The example you mentioned was sinful on Mary ad Josephs part, cos they were forgetting who Jesus' most important parent was. He was doing the right thing.

You misunderstood wot I was saying. Of course Ive not been, (and still a mnot :D ) a perfect Christian adolescent, but that doesnt mean I was right to do what Ive done. I wouldnt say to younger Christians. Hey its ok to do the bad things Ive done - cos youre growing up. In the same way - a book shouldnt portray this as right. Thats wot i was saying. Sorry if i was unclear...

Sojourner

06-04-2005, 03:17 PM

Actually the Young Jesus was forgotten by his parents not being disobedient.
Now as much as I enjoy the HP books I have to agree with GR on most(not all) of his/her points. You have to understand although HP does evolve into a more complex character towards the end of the series, he does it at the expense of losing his innocence. Many things could have been avoided in book 3 if he had not snuck off to the town. The books show Harry becoming progressively bitter and sarcastic.(I am sorry but it is true).
Now this does not mean I do not like the books, I love them. But I feel the need to clarify alot of things. These books are not meant to be taken seriously. Although many children do, it is not JKR's fault. It is their own, and although many of the books used as textbooks can be found in libraries around the world, that does not mean that JKR is saying you should go out and buy every one of them.

Now on the point the HP series is a Christophony(this does not mean he is phony, it is greek for image of Christ). I have to disagree, it is a fun series that is all. Not meant ot be taken seriously. CS Lewis on the other hand stated many times that CoN was meant to be an allegory.

So that is all I have to say for now, sorry if this post sounded rude.

tgraveline

06-05-2005, 05:33 AM

lol, i love harry, but to think of him as a christlike figure for books, now he is the hero, not necessarily the christlike figure though. I think thats really what he is, and honestly, if you are too easily influeced then you shouldn't be reading anything period, lol. Just lock yourself in a padded room and swallow the keys and hopefully they won't come out the other end, lol.

tg

inkspot

06-05-2005, 03:27 PM

Now on the point the HP series is a Christophony(this does not mean he is phony, it is greek for image of Christ). I have to disagree, it is a fun series that is all. Not meant ot be taken seriously. CS Lewis on the other hand stated many times that CoN was meant to be an allegory.
Welcome to the discussion, Sojourner. Although you have been a member longer than I have, I don't remember seeing you post, so maybe, welcome back, too.
I just started HP book 2 which is good so far, but like you, so far I do not see biblical allegory, but that isn't what Inked is saying, I think he is saying it is more like a morality play about a Christian "Everyman." I don't see that yet, either, but I am looking for it.

Also, CS Lewis did not say CON was an allegory, because in an allegory, everything directly represents something else, which is not the case in CON. As Lewis said:
You are mistaken when you think that everything in the books "represents" something in this world. Things do that in The Pilgrim's Progress but I'm not writing in that way. I did not say to myself "Let us represent Jesus as He really is in our world by a Lion in Narnia": I said "Let us suppose that there were a land like Narnia and that the Son of God, as He became a Man in our world, became a Lion there, and then imagine what would happen." If you think about it, you will see that it is quite a different thing.

Goldenrod22

06-10-2005, 12:58 PM

Hello everybody, Goldenrod here. I really have liked the responses everybody has been giving about this HP topic, but I do disagree with a few of them.
One of the things brought up was that the books should not be taken seriously, as they are just fantasy.
Look at it this way. Kids these days are influenced by what they read, watch on TV, and the things their peers do. Their religion, their parents, and other things also come into play.
But if you grow up into a culture where the parents (who are trying to do what's best for their kids) allow kids to 'do their own thing' in life, you will NOT end up with a better child. They need the early guidance of either a parental figure or someone else who is more mature to keep them from 'experimenting' throughout life. Imagine, if you will, all the kids on this Earth deciding, "I won't EVER do drugs. I can do drugs, but I won't."

Think of what an impact this would have. They made a choice, a choice that does NOT involve dabbling with something that they know is wrong. In relating back to my point, I most firmly believe that kids do not need to 'experiment' with bad things in order to grow. Oh, it makes my heart ache to think of the thousands of teens who listen to the negative messages in books, saying "Try this! Who cares about the consequences?"

I think that kids growing up on a steady diet of HP, 'Teen Witch' books, books on suicide and depression, and many other disturbing themes are not 'naturally' like that from the start, they are INFLUENCED by our dark culture.

If you look back in time, you'll see that teens have always had problems, since no one is perfect.

But can we stop writing literature that promotes the three D's: DEATH, DESTRUCTION, and DEPRESSION?

:(

Sojourner

06-10-2005, 12:58 PM

I will reread the essay I read, I may be mistaken that CSL said that it was meant to be an allegory...So I will check.

inked

06-10-2005, 01:46 PM

Ah, welcome back, GR22, still spewing false interpretations and misunderstandings, I see. Well, I for one haven't given up on you! JK Rowling is NOT teaching witchcraft, nor is she teaching the three D's, as you suggest. You equate all works that posit magic as part of their world of subcreation as the same, and you tar and feather them with Mr Abanes errant material without regard to their differing contexts.

When will you stop dissing, deforming, and degrading? :p

waterhogboy

06-10-2005, 01:56 PM

Hey! :mad: Everyone's entitled to their own opinion!!

inkspot

06-10-2005, 02:43 PM

still spewing false interpretations and misunderstandings, I see... When will you stop dissing, deforming, and degrading? :p
Inked is so snippy today! :p

As WHB says, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And as I said: no more comments from Inky(spot) on the content until I finish all the books! Except the new one, the sixth one, I may not get it until it's available used or comes out in paperback.

But you all please continue the discussion in the meantime ...only be nice to each other, please?

inked

06-11-2005, 11:15 PM

I was being nice! That's why I put the :p on, so as GR22 would know I was "pulling a switcheroo"! Sheesh, no sense of humour or humor? :rolleyes:

And, WHB, you are correct, everybody is entitled to their opinion! MINE is the right opinion, of course............. ;) !

waterhogboy

06-12-2005, 06:32 PM

And, WHB, you are correct, everybody is entitled to their opinion! MINE is the right opinion, of course............. ;) !

LOL!!!!!!!!! Thats the spirit!!! :D

inkspot

06-20-2005, 06:56 PM

I was being nice! That's why I put the :p on, so as GR22 would know I was "pulling a switcheroo"! Sheesh, no sense of humour or humor? :rolleyes:
Sorry. Slow on the upswing again. :o

Kazakhrider

06-21-2005, 01:43 AM

I will reread the essay I read, I may be mistaken that CSL said that it was meant to be an allegory...So I will check.

This is what Lewis himself wrote:

If Aslan represented the immaterial Deity, he would be an allegorical figure. In reality however he is an invention giving an imaginary answer to the question, “What might Christ become like if there really were a world like Narnia and He chose to be incarnate and die and rise again in that world as He actually has done in ours?” This is not allegory at all. . . Allegory and such supposals differ because they mix the real and the unreal in different ways.

Sojourner

06-21-2005, 07:17 PM

Thanks K....so in fact CoN is a Supposal not an allegory.

Goldenrod22

06-24-2005, 02:43 PM

Inked, please read this!

I am very upset at your nasty attitude towards me. You are entitled to your own opinion, but to tear me down in the process is very hurtful.

Saying all of those things that you did in your previous post, and then 'adding a smiley to show I was joking' is just wrong. You would not have said those things at all if you were just 'joking'. Nobody does that, except to insult people.
Also, I have the dignity not to make any personal attacks on you, just on your view of Harry Potter. Many have been the times when I felt that you were overstepping the boundraries of being polite to me, but I did not say so.

Here are some verses below that I think apply to this situation.

"...Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those WHO SPEAK MALICIOUSLY AGAINST YOUR GOOD BEHAVIOUR in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil."
---1 Peter 3:15

"Do everything without complaining or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe as you hold out the word of life--in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing."
---Phil. 2:14

"To whom can I speak and give warning? Who will listen to me? Their ears are closed so they cannot hear. The word of the Lord is offensive to them, they find no pleasure in it."
---Jer. 6:10

Sojourner

06-24-2005, 08:35 PM

Good verses GR22

inked

06-27-2005, 02:22 AM

Goldenrod22

07-01-2005, 12:46 PM

You did not mean it as a joke. You precluded the entire statement (up until the smiley) with mean-hearted comments INTENDED to hurt my feelings.

Don't play around.

Well, you've had your say, and I think you really don't care a bit about being nasty to me. I am just trying to reach out to help show you a different opinion, but you would rather bash me than hear the truth.

Where is the Christian attitude there? You still have not been polite and civil with this last post, just sarcastic. I understand what you are trying to do, and I don't want to fight with you anymore.

I'm still going to post, but I really don't feel like having my views trashed by you anymore.

Sincerely,
Goldenrod

Johan 72109

07-09-2005, 09:02 AM

One of the things brought up was that the books should not be taken seriously, as they are just fantasy.
Look at it this way. Kids these days are influenced by what they read, watch on TV, and the things their peers do. Their religion, their parents, and other things also come into play.
But if you grow up into a culture where the parents (who are trying to do what's best for their kids) allow kids to 'do their own thing' in life, you will NOT end up with a better child. They need the early guidance of either a parental figure or someone else who is more mature to keep them from 'experimenting' throughout life. Imagine, if you will, all the kids on this Earth deciding, "I won't EVER do drugs. I can do drugs, but I won't."

Think of what an impact this would have. They made a choice, a choice that does NOT involve dabbling with something that they know is wrong. In relating back to my point, I most firmly believe that kids do not need to 'experiment' with bad things in order to grow. Oh, it makes my heart ache to think of the thousands of teens who listen to the negative messages in books, saying "Try this! Who cares about the consequences?"

I think that kids growing up on a steady diet of HP, 'Teen Witch' books, books on suicide and depression, and many other disturbing themes are not 'naturally' like that from the start, they are INFLUENCED by our dark culture.

If you look back in time, you'll see that teens have always had problems, since no one is perfect.

But can we stop writing literature that promotes the three D's: DEATH, DESTRUCTION, and DEPRESSION?

:(

Ouch... this thread seems to be getting a bit heated... Bear in mind that it's just a book guys, no need to get upset over it... :o

Anyway, onto my point however... Please let me state that this is not getting at anyone in any way, just my opinion.
Goldenrod, first of all, I'd like to point out that HP is not THAT dark a series of books... Sure, there's death, and elements of horror, but in comparison to other books out there it really isn't that bad... Try reading the works of Orwell, Dick, some of Malorie Blackman, even some of Robert Swindell. All these have little or no light relief, and instead of showing the character's ultimate triumph, in many cases display their ultimate downfall. Harry Potter has dark elements, but I wouldn't say it is a dark series.

I also would argue that dark literature IS important. For a start, it is more educational than the majority of lighter literature. It preaches a message that is AGAINST the darkness it describes. For example, Brother in the Land by Robert Swindells is a description of the aftermath of a nuclear holocaust, and the way that people slowly degrade and turn more and more barbaric. However, this is not there to teach any bad morals. Indeed, it is a warning, a lesson to the younger generation about war and the way we treat each other.
Especially in modern western society, where awareness of the plight of other people and our duty to others is vanishing under the onslaught of media desensitisation of violence, lack of faith in God and ignorance, this sort of literature can help point out our responsibilities in a way that brighter books can't.

It also is often more realistic than other books. In a dark novel, when the hero goes into a room full of his enemies, he ISN'T necesarily going to win out. The pauper doesn't always become the prince. The guy doesn't always get the girl. Indeed, this is why I personally read dark books more than other books, because I can associate myself more with the characters.

While I would agree that dark books shouldn't be read to the exclusion of everything else, and I certainly wouldn't give one to a seven year old to read, I still think that just because a book is disturbing doesn't mean that it shouldn't be read... Otherwise, in forty years or so, the Holocaust will never have happened, no one will care about the plight of Africa, and there will be no shield against the wave of media influence that constantly is effecting our way of life.

Narnian Jedi

07-10-2005, 09:00 PM

hello all

I'm all for kids reading different types of books. Although I don't always agree with some choices (many times as a parent, I have to step in and just say 'no'), my children and I have discussed what I expect of them and what the Bible says about our interests and thoughts. From there they can read most books, have an opinion and walk away unaffected by questionable content. My oldest son saw Harry Potter for the first time in summer camp and found it okay but won't see the rest. He didn't like the hostility between some of the characters and prefers not to read the books. His reason is because there was no clear line between good and evil "...its not like LOTR, there is one evil they all get together to fight. In HP, I don't see that..." This, coming from an 11 year old boy.

inkspot

07-11-2005, 11:02 AM

I also would argue that dark literature IS important. For a start, it is more educational than the majority of lighter literature. It preaches a message that is AGAINST the darkness it describes. For example, Brother in the Land by Robert Swindells is a description of the aftermath of a nuclear holocaust, and the way that people slowly degrade and turn more and more barbaric. However, this is not there to teach any bad morals. Indeed, it is a warning, a lesson to the younger generation about war and the way we treat each other.
I don't know these books you reference, are they for children? I can only speak for myself, and for myself, I would not want my young child reading the last two books in the HP series, 4 & 5. They were very dark -- if you read my descriptions in the other HP threads here, you'll see what I thought/felt as I read them, and I am a grown-up. I wouldn't want any depression-prone teen to read them, let alone a child.

This is an individual thing, of course, but why burden youngsters with such angst? Maybe you believe they need to be exposed to harsh reality, but I think they need to believe that there is goodness in the world, and that it can triumph. HP may indeed vindicate this theme by its finale, and meantime Harry and friends will have grown up -- but their young readers, maybe not. See, our girls read HP #1 when they were 9 and 11 and the book first came out, so now they are teenagers and better equipped to handle HP's adventures as they comealong; they have grown up with him ... But what about today's 9 or 10 year old who reads book one, then voraciously begins devouring them all? She's still 9 years old, trying to cope with **spoilers** Diggory's death and the awful oppression of Ms. Umbridge? It's too much.

As NJ says, it's up to the parents to monitor what their children are reading, but many parents don't.

Johan 72109

07-11-2005, 12:02 PM

That's very true - I certainly wouldn't wish to expose a young child to that sort of angst, and they wouldn't want to be exposed to it. But once people start getting into early teens, or just before, they are sometimes questioning the sugar-coated world they sometimes read about in books - at least I was... Hehe, though my friends will testify that I'm a slightly abnormal person... :o Also, once they reach that age, they are going to be exposed more to the media and the influence of their peers, which requires something to counter-balance it. Of course, one could just simply lecture children on topics such as war, racism, politics, relationships... Which does work for certain types of people, but for others, particularly when feeling rebellious towards their parents and mentors, can find out these values for themselves through literature.
But I agree, children need to see that good can triumph. One needs the healthy balance - the gritty, darker books to teach about the bad side of life, and the more positive books to show the power that common goodness can hold against these demons of life. Indeed, it's probably best to have a prevalence of the happier books - teen angst is a horrible (and stupid) thing.
I do agree that parents need to control what their children read though, or at the very least teach their children to be aware of what they're reading.
For example, I recently started reading a book that proclaimed it a 'science-fiction epic.' It now resides in my bin. Because, it is in actuality just an excuse for the author to describe as many homosexual encounters as he can, in a terribly written style to boot. :mad: Needless to say, this sort of thing isn't for children... or even adults, as it does nothing to enrich their lives whatsoever, unlike other books unsuitable for kids.

The examples I cited in my previous posts vary in who they are aimed at. Robert Swindells writes for people in their early teens, pre-teens. His books contain the occasional light swear-word, but no explicit sex or violence - though these themes are addressed, he doesn't go into graffic detail about them. Malorie Blackman's 'Noughts and Crosses' series is the same, dealing with racism in a very thought-provoking and clever way. Most of the other authors are more for mid to late teens or adults I'd be inclined to say - though some of them I read when I was younger than that... whether they made me more political and philosophical than most people my age, or whether I was like that anyway which was why I read them, I don't know. :D

inkspot

07-11-2005, 12:10 PM

I see what you mean, Johan, teenagers need their books to be authentic, not just Pollyanna stuff, as they grow up and begin to investigate life outside their family/church/school, or even some of the darker aspects within their family/church/school.

Sunrise

07-12-2005, 10:12 AM

Well, as has been proven in numerous places on the board, we can all debate the merits or lack thereof of HP ad nauseum, and anything I could add has already been said very well by proponents on both sides.

So, I'm going to return to the original point of the thread, which was to suggest authors/books that measure up to the caliber of Lewis, no?

Anyone thought of Madeliene L'Engle? Specifically the Wrinkle in Time series and its derivatives. She's a bit of a mystic, but her worldview is undeniably Christian, clearly delineating good and evil and connecting the spiritual world irrevocably to the physical; all while dealing with normal teenage angst within very human characters (except perhaps the too-perfect Charles Wallace). I read them before I got into Narnia, and they were what gave me my first taste of fantasy fiction that led me looking for more, and eventually stumbling upon Narnia. You could argue that L'Engle's work is more sci-fi than fantasy due to the time/interplanetary travel involved and the modern setting, but I still believe most kids who enjoy fantasy/adventure tend to like her books.

And a plug for my favorite: Lloyd Alexander's Chronicles of Prydain. They are a classic fantasy epic coming-of-age series, in which the growth and relationships of the main character completely supercede the fantasy setting, which provides merely a backdrop. They are not specifically Christian books (I have no idea what the author's beliefs are), but there is nothing objectionable in them, and they drive home a number of Christian values: humility, maturity, compassion, truth, redemption, sacrifice, and the need for ordinary, fallible human beings to reach out for something beyond themselves and become more than they have been. Again, good and evil are clearly defined, and although there are dark moments, they always serve to bring about a needed crisis in the story which is then resolved. I admit to loving these books even more than Narnia by a tad, possibly because you get more attached to characters when you follow the same ones through every book. (But also because they are inspired by Welsh fairy tales, and I have a weakness for anything Celtic :rolleyes: ).

Then there is Gail Carson Levine, author of Ella Enchanted and Two Princesses of Bamarre. If you saw the film version of Ella, do yourself a favor and crack the book, so you can forget that monstrous waste of celluloid. I wouldn't say her books have great spiritual depth, but they are definitely an entertaining and morally harmless lark for tween-age girls, which is hard enough to find these days.

waterhogboy

07-12-2005, 10:49 AM

inkspot

07-12-2005, 11:21 AM

I think the focus of fantasy has begun to shift more recently, away from the actualy magicalness of mystery of the worlds, more to the characters and storylines - could be just a personal opinion tho!
I don't know if it hasn't always been so in the best books, such as LOTR. While there is magic and mystery and a grand battle of good and evil played out on an epic scale, at the heart of the story is Frodo and Sam, Gandalf and Aragorn, Merry and Pippin --it's the characters that light up the story, their heartaches and happines, what drives them and how they change over the course of the story.

This could be said of the L'Engle books, that began with Wrinkle in Time, and those certainly aren't new stories. Narnia of course is delightful to us because of the Talking Animals and fantastic creatures, but also the human characters are strong, and their issues are dealt with forcefully, think about Edmund or Eustace ...

Sunrise

07-12-2005, 01:05 PM

Exactly. The best stories have characters you care about. A fantasy setting may be the preference for many because it gives the characters things to do and be that we can only dream about, but ultimately it is their similarities with us that draw us to them. Courage in the face of danger, self-discovery, a sense of justice and a desire for good to triumph over evil - those are the things predominant in any good fantasy, and those are the things that make it interesting because we can relate to them. Dragons and unicorns and magic spells make a nice intriguing backdrop, but ultimately they are not what a good fairy tale is all about.

inkspot

07-13-2005, 05:11 PM

Does anybody watch those TV shows "Charmed" and "Angel"? I have never seen but one episode, years ago, and I was wondering if they fit what we are talking about here? Are they character-driven programs with magic, or are they basically magic programs with pretty girls?

Johan 72109

07-13-2005, 05:45 PM

Ach... both truly vile... I'd say there's neither an interesting background for either of them, OR interesting characters... Hehe... That's just my (slightly heated) opinion coming into view there though... :D

holyboy

07-13-2005, 05:46 PM

Does anybody watch those TV shows "Charmed" and "Angel"?

I think I do Is that the show that was the spinoff of Buffy? I am still pissed off that they cancelled it. My favorite episode is Smile Time. The purple stuffed animal was hilarious, and Angel as a puppet was gold.

Narnian Jedi

07-13-2005, 10:55 PM

Hello all

Regarding shows or literature involving witchcraft and the like, we, as Christians, should be mindful of the things that displease the Lord. It's one thing to read something and form an opinion (which we often need to or had to do with 'required' reading in schools). But to watch a show that glorifies or makes it cool to practice the very things Christ died to free us from, I don't think that's acceptable in God's eyes.

It reminds me of something I heard in one of my father's sermons. A guy tells his friend a joke about a drunk. The friend stays very serious and tells the first it's not funny. He goes on to tell him that his son was killed by a drunk driver. Like this man I think the Lord is displeased and hurt when we watch shows that sensationalize sin and the occult. Just a thought...

holyboy

07-13-2005, 11:20 PM

Regarding shows or literature involving witchcraft and the like, we, as Christians, should be mindful of the things that displease the Lord. It's one thing to read something and form an opinion (which we often need to or had to do with 'required' reading in schools). But to watch a show that glorifies or makes it cool to practice the very things Christ died to free us from, I don't think that's acceptable in God's eyes.

We have to remember that these shows are for our entertainment. God encourages to rest and relax, and to not work or pray all the time. TV is an excellent way to relax, as many people have demonstrated. There is nothing wrong with these shows. It is a creative interpritation of an idea. There is nothing wrong with the show. The sin lies when you believe the show to be fact. If we believed that vampires are real, and we need to stab people we think are vampires, then it is a sin. As long as we remember that these shows aren't real, then it is ok. If you start believing that it is real, then you should turn it off.

Narnian Jedi

07-14-2005, 02:32 AM

We have to remember that these shows are for our entertainment. God encourages to rest and relax, and to not work or pray all the time. TV is an excellent way to relax, as many people have demonstrated. There is nothing wrong with these shows. It is a creative interpritation of an idea. There is nothing wrong with the show. The sin lies when you believe the show to be fact. If we believed that vampires are real, and we need to stab people we think are vampires, then it is a sin. As long as we remember that these shows aren't real, then it is ok. If you start believing that it is real, then you should turn it off.

I see your point. I still like to make sure the things I watch are things that make the Lord smile. Yes television is for entertainment, but it doesn't mean we should watch everything so openmindedly until we draw no lines as to what isn't right. I, in no way, believe the shows to be a reality but that fact is that the occult, immorality and sin in general, are very real and I personally don't like to make light of such things. Sin is sin. The Bible is very clear about this. This is how the enemy muddles spiritual perception, I think. We get so comfortable seeing these things, we become immune to sin and just plain evil.

These are questions I like to get my kids used to asking themselves: Would Jesus sit here with me and watch this show? Would He think the content is funny, too? Is this show making His sacrifice in vain, by me condoning the actions of immoral characters protrayed? If we do watch something of this nature I like to discuss it with them and guide them spiritually so they can chose shows, books, friends, anything carefully with Christ in mind.

I don't remember anywhere in the Bible saying Jesus finished rebuking evil spirits and sin, then decides to hang out and just watching more evil for recreation. The Bible tells us to turn away from these things.

Finally, brothers, whatever is true,
whatever is noble, whatever is right,
whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable
- if anything is excellent or praiseworthy -
think about these things.

Phil 4:8 NIV

Our spiritual journey doesn't have an on/off switch. We need to be mindful of the our actions and what we're exposed to constantly. Yes we can relax and rest, but there has to be a line drawn on as to how it's done.

Sunrise

07-14-2005, 11:19 AM

We have to remember that these shows are for our entertainment. God encourages to rest and relax, and to not work or pray all the time. TV is an excellent way to relax, as many people have demonstrated. There is nothing wrong with these shows. It is a creative interpritation of an idea. There is nothing wrong with the show. The sin lies when you believe the show to be fact. If we believed that vampires are real, and we need to stab people we think are vampires, then it is a sin. As long as we remember that these shows aren't real, then it is ok. If you start believing that it is real, then you should turn it off.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

The fact that something is only entertainment doesn't mean we should blithely invite it into our minds. In fact, such stuff that masquerades as entertainment is, I think, more insidious than if it were blatant in its message, because we approach it with no caution. It becomes propaganda, subtlely influencing our opinions without raising any red flags in our consciences. After all, it's "just entertainment."

I'm not saying Joss Whedon is out to convert anyone to paganism, but there are things to be discerning about in his shows. The whole vampire thing is obviously fantasy - but then he goes delving into Wiccanism and real witchcraft (not the Harry Potter fantasy stuff), and excessive emphasis on the sexual relationships between the characters - it's why I stopped watching Buffy. The whole thing just got very oppressive spiritually.

If you think watching that stuff has absolutely no effect on you spiritually, I think you are deceiving yourself. God does, in fact, tell us to "pray without ceasing" and to be always on our guard against the enemy, who masquerades as an "angel of light". (Or, perhaps, a harmless television show?)

PS. Very well said, NarnianJedi

inkspot

07-14-2005, 11:25 AM

I think Sunrise and Jedi have a valid point. My husband watches that show "Cops." He would like to be a policeman himself. He enjoys seeing that stuff. When I watch it with him, I get kind of oppressed by the dumb, bad stuff these people are doing -- a lot are drunk, some are high, some are just people who obviously have no foundation for their lives ... and it's just, to me, oppressive. It's not a wicked program, the heroes are the police, but to me, it makes me feel sad and hopeless to see people so messed up.

So the key maybe is to seriously reflect on how what you are watching is impacting you -- and like Jedi, if you are a believer, ask yourself whether what you are watching is something you could comfortably watch with Christ in your home. Me, I don't think Jesus would watch Cops. It would depress him, too!

Sunrise

07-14-2005, 11:33 AM

I agree. I can't watch any television these days, really. Reality tv depresses me; all it does is showcase the worst in human nature - I don't find it the least bit entertaining. Sitcoms are insipid, shallow, and immoral for the most part. Good scientific programming has been taken over by gimmicky Animal Planet and Discovery channels.

This would be why we don't have cable!

Johan 72109

07-14-2005, 12:34 PM

This isn't me trying to make a point or anything... just interested in hearing people's opinions... Does anyone think that Jesus would enjoy something like Blackadder? (Have you even heard of Blackadder over in the States?) Or indeed, any other piece of satire?

One thing I would suggest, is that perhaps Jesus would enjoy Cops... Because, if he's our best friend, doesn't that mean that he'll share most of our interests too (unless you're Hannibal Lector of course :o ...)? Which would, of course, mean that Jesus would need to be interested in almost everything, to share the (healthier) interests of every human on the planet.
That really is just a thought, I'm not sure whether it'd be right or wrong.

inkspot

07-14-2005, 03:57 PM

inked

07-14-2005, 05:20 PM

Jesus obviously loved a good story! He told so many of them. And the sign of a good storyteller is a good listener - not just at synagogue, but also at home. We miss the humour of his remarks so many times because we think he was solemn all the time, but the reality is he was accused of being a wine-bibber and a friend of publican (tax-collectors) and sinners (people no better than they had to be). Now, in my experience, those folks generally know some pretty great jokes and stories, not all of which would necessarily pass muster with the Pharisees (then or now, Pharisees, I mean!). So it follows that if Jesus could enjoy the common folk's stories and jokes, their entertainment as it were, he could certainly be capable of enjoying ours!

Not that Jesus was without standards or discriminating taste, mind you. I just think his ability to enjoy Harry Potter would not have been infringed by the presence of magic/witches/et cetera, or even depictions of demons et alia. Within the social conventions of his time, I doubt he minded dancing (particularly at weddings!), partying, the company of women, the company of men, the company of children, Romans, Galileans, Egyptians, et cetera. And I think interacting with these folks would have included appropriate stories of varying degrees of acceptability, just like TV/movies?books today. And since religious humour is sacreligious in many ways, he probably heard all the old chestnuts we know today!

So I think he would have responded in typically Jesus style to infringements of morality, decency, and social or important religious customs. After all, since many of the Pharisees were wealthier (which allowed them the luxury of keeping the 600 or so points if the law), their take on Jesus' camel comments were hardly the belly laughter of the common folk, eh? Rather like his stories, his jokes might just cut too close to home if we understood the humour! :eek:

Narnian Jedi

07-14-2005, 06:22 PM

For sure Jesus would enjoy satire/comedy. As I understand it, when he walked the earth, in his homeland and society, a lot of the humor was based on over-statement, you know, hyperbole. So when he said something like, "It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to get to heaven," people were rolling on the floor laughing -- "camel! needle! C'mon, Jesus, you're killing me ..." -- :D

But for Cops ... I think he would feel like looking at people making jack-asses of themselves wasn't very nice. Same for reality TV ... but I am notoriously easily influenced by what's happening around me, too sensitive to it, maybe.

You know, I feel that way too when something is depressingly realistic. I like to see it as an opportunity to fine tune our prayers. To ask the Lord for more specific things for others and ourselves.

And yeah Jesus must have been a great people person to be friends with the folks he mingled with. But the Word says he influenced those he was around. He would take opportunities to teach and uplift as much as possible, I don't think he'd find lots of the content in today's books and movies/TV funny or tolerable. The word says that in the end times, right will seem wrong and wrong, right. Because of this, I think we've become de-sensitized to the heart of God. We need to keep a clear definition of right and wrong and pass that on to our youth. The New Testament books are very instructional to the reader. We're told to learn and keep on working to be more Christ-like. Jesus didn't blend in just to be more popular, He made sure his presence made a difference and enlighten minds.

waterhogboy

07-15-2005, 11:47 AM

I bet Jesus and his disciples even made fun of each, just like a group of guys would today! I mean, I'll make a joke about one of my mates, but only as a joke - knowing he'll take it as one. In the same way, I dont think Jesus would have a problem as long as there was no malice! Its like my mummy always says - 'Its not what you say - its the way you say it that matters...'

Johan 72109

07-15-2005, 11:56 AM

And that's how she gets away with embarassing the hell out of you when your friends are around? And indeed every other time? :D

waterhogboy

07-15-2005, 12:23 PM

And that's how she gets away with embarassing the hell out of you when your friends are around? And indeed every other time? :D

HEY!!! Shut it you - or you'll find my fist in your mouth on Sunday!!!

Johan 72109

07-15-2005, 12:38 PM

And then your mum will run over... 'Oh dear, getting a bit angry there... *turns to me* I'm so sorry, he's always had aggression problems, ever since he was a toddler... Never got his way though, did he, my little boy... *pinches WHB's cheek*'

Hehe, sorry...
I'm afraid I'm not here Sunday anyway :( D of E final expedition! :D

How stupid is that... telling you on the forum instead of any other means... :o

inkspot

07-15-2005, 01:49 PM

Stop yer bickering, you two.

I think Jedi had a good point: Jesus caroused with the common man, but it was his influence that changed the people he was with -- they didn't change him. That should be true for Christ followers today, and if we find that mixing with certain people at certain places or times tends to draw us into thoughts or behavior that's ungodly, we should back off until we are stronger.

Johan 72109

07-15-2005, 05:26 PM

That's true - and is something I myself struggle with alot... :o Thanks for the insight, and the reminder :)

And me and WHB?!? Bicker?!? Nay, twas merely friendly banter between us... *tries to ignore arm being forced up behind back by said WHB* :D

inked

07-15-2005, 09:43 PM

Narnian Jedi

07-16-2005, 02:58 PM

...Jesus caroused with the common man, but it was his influence that changed the people he was with -- they didn't change him. That should be true for Christ followers today, and if we find that mixing with certain people at certain places or times tends to draw us into thoughts or behavior that's ungodly, we should back off until we are stronger.

Nicely put Inkspot, very important point.

Even as an adult, maintaining spiritual integrity is a challenge cause it affects work, (many times I've been labeled anti-social for refusing to listen to gossip and/or participate in underhanded activity, kids' school (dealing with teachers that are too openminded, who's views conflict with mine) and sometimes family. It doesn't stop when you feel strong enough to stay Christ-like with others and remain unchanged. In fact the challenges can get more intense the closer you walk with the Lord. It's an ongoing process that needs constant spiritual nourishment. It's rewarding when you know you've overcome a particularly difficult situation.

inkspot

07-17-2005, 10:57 AM

A little "night before the new Harry Potter novel comes out" reading which invokes the names of CS Lewis, JRR Tolkien, Charles Williams, and the Inkling thingy:

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0001/reviews/jacobs.html

Enjoy!!! :D
Did you post this link before in the other thread? I read this essay before, it's really good. But it only goes up to book three. I would be interested in the author's take on books four and five, and now book six (which I haven't read yet).

Inked, I am glad I listened to you and read the books-- they're a blast. :D
(Everyone can read my reservations about books 4-5 for younger kids in the other thread -- they're pretty dark ...)

Jedi:
I agree with you, the task of being a city on a hill in a dark world (spiritually) can be daunting, but it is exhilarating, too, to discover that all your human power to succeed is really just the tiniest portion of power compared to what God is willing to give through the Holy Spirit, when you get close to Him and desire to learn, grow and serve.

(Man, I hope that doesn't sound so "Christian" that no non-believer can understand it ... what I mean is: when your life is focused on service to God, God gives you the power to serve, in creative and energetic ways that make an impact on your family, community and world ... and that impact isn't something you have to make on your own, but something God will make through you -- with Him, you're never alone...)

inked

07-17-2005, 02:06 PM

Inkspot,

Glad you enjoyed them! :D

You really must read John Granger's LOOKING FOR GOD IN HARRY POTTER.
Check out www.hogwartsprofessor.com , too.

Or, if spaces are still available, check out Barnes and Noble University at www.barnesandnoble.com (the B&N U tab at the top right side) for a class on the newest HP6.

And, I may have posted that before in the other thread, now locked (?), but it was worth a repost, IMHO. :D

inkspot

07-17-2005, 04:09 PM

Or, if spaces are still available, check out Barnes and Noble University at www.barnesandnoble.com (the B&N U tab at the top right side) for a class on the newest HP6.
Good idea! I will check it out.

lucy05

07-20-2005, 12:18 PM

i wish there were more authors like Lewis and Tolkien! have you read any books by Tamora Pierce? i love Trickster's Choice!we need more great fantasty authors. :D

inkspot

07-20-2005, 04:25 PM

Never heard of it. What's Trickster's Choice about? I am with you, we need more good fantasy writers. Or, I don't know, I'm not such a HUGE fantasy fan, but I like, I don't know --fairy tale? Adventure?

What do you think of the Harry Potter books? We've been discussing whether Rowling stands up there with Lewis and Tolkien.

Johan 72109

07-20-2005, 05:04 PM

i wish there were more authors like Lewis and Tolkien! have you read any books by Tamora Pierce? i love Trickster's Choice!we need more great fantasty authors. :D

Argh... afraid I ain't a great fan of her to be honest... to *ahem* cheesy, not enough of the good guys losing... :o

inked

07-20-2005, 05:34 PM

REally? Read HP6? :confused:

inkspot

07-20-2005, 05:37 PM

I think Johan is referring to Tamora Pierce, not JKR.

But if the good guys never lose in Tamora Pierce's writing, I better check it out. That sounds like what I like ...

And I assume from Inked's post that the good guys lose in HP6?! I just bought it last night and have only read the first chapter.
**trepidation mingled with resolution on furrowed brow**
Best get back to it.

tgraveline

08-06-2005, 01:30 PM

LOL, yeah HP6 isn't really a good guys winning one. Or the last one really.

tg

inkspot

08-06-2005, 04:37 PM

LOL, yeah HP6 isn't really a good guys winning one.
Yikes, I'll say! After I wade through all these NEW POSTS, I'll go post in the HP Thread ... it may be a while.

holyboy

08-06-2005, 08:40 PM

LOL, yeah HP6 isn't really a good guys winning one. Or the last one really.

JKR just seems to be getting darker and darker with each book. I will be happy when she gives the story a happy ending in the 7th book. And if she doesn't I will be very disapointed with her.

inkspot

08-07-2005, 03:51 PM

JKR just seems to be getting darker and darker with each book. I will be happy when she gives the story a happy ending in the 7th book. And if she doesn't I will be very disapointed with her.
Agreed! There had best be a happy ending after all this!

inked

08-07-2005, 07:44 PM

What constitutes an happy ending? "And they all lived happily ever after..."?

If JKR is writing EUCATASTROPHE, I think Harry's death is inevitable. I predict he will give his life for the world in opposition to Voldemort, achieving thereby the goal of ridding the world of Voldemort. ( I will admit it is conceivable that he will survive and end like Dumbledore - training the next generations.)

The happy ending in my opinion would not be ruined by Harry's death unless Harry failed to rid the world of Voldemort. But never forget that could happen, too. That would be a truly sad ending. If Harry, like his father James, ends up dying and not ridding the world of Voldemort, it would only be the delaying - and that is not an unworthy goal - of the triumph of evil as "embodied" in Voldemort. Yet another proponent of evil will probably arise after Voldemort as V did after Grindewald! Indeed, if JKR is writing in the tradition of the Inklings, as both Tolkien and Lewis observe, evil is possible and inevitable in sinful worlds until the world(s) end.

But the freeing of the world from the effects of Voldemort and his like is NEVER a simple good! It is always a complex good. That is, sin distorts the simple good from the hand of God and God works co-operatively with humanity so inclined to bring about the greater good. The supreme instance is the Incarnation, Resurrection, and Ascension of Jesus. Harry's giving of himself for the life of the world as he knows it would be a "subcreation" of complex good. This quality is not so rare as to be unknown in our day and time for many of our fathers and grandfathers and uncles and aunts did precisely this in WWII and Korea and Vietnam, and currently, Iraq.

Fictionally this is not unknown. Think Bruce Willis' character sacrificing himself on the asteroid to save the earth. Think Gandalf at Moria. Think Ransom on Perelandra. And remember, we are dealing in symbolic literature not allegory!

waterhogboy

08-08-2005, 09:21 AM

Hey guys - loving all your comments especially Inked's eucata...whatever!!! :D Only jokin sir. Anyway, this thread seems to keep getting a bit off topic and we've got plenty of threads dedicated to Harry Potter!

Christians and Harry Potter (http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showthread.php?t=606)

Harry Potter and the Bible (http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showthread.php?t=797)

Half Blood Prince - Spoiler Version (http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showthread.php?t=976)

Half Blood Prince (http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showthread.php?t=972)

Feel free to keep discussing this stuff, but lets try keep this thread for its original purpose!! :)

inkspot

08-08-2005, 11:27 AM

lets try keep this thread for its original purpose!! :)
Umm ... what was it again? :o

waterhogboy

08-08-2005, 02:04 PM

inkspot

08-08-2005, 03:13 PM

Oh, sorry. I get so absorbed in something like Half Blood Prince and it's all I can think about.

If JKR finishes Harry off in a spectacularly symbolic style in which he lays down his life for his friends, and stamps out evil Voldemort, then I will say that she has created a Lewis-esque chronicle. But at this moment, I cannot see what will happen ...

inked

08-08-2005, 08:47 PM

Really inkpost!!! I'm dissapointed...

Thinking of peeps who seem to be suitably resurrecting the writing style of C.S.Lewis and his contemporaries, but also discussing whether that in itself is a good thing or not!

Which is what I have been elucidating about JKR and HP, WHB! If we don't have specific examples, how can we contend they are like the Inklings, specifically CSL? So, really we aren't off topic ... just stuck on the Potterverse as a successor to the Narniaverse! But, if you'd like to suggest another author and book(s), we don't have to limit ourselves.

Here's an option: the works of Charles Williams, the supernatural thriller. Of course, he was an Inkling in the sense of the meetings, but perhaps not as this thread intends a successor to their work, ... more a contemporary.

inkspot

08-11-2005, 07:00 PM

Here's an option: the works of Charles Williams, the supernatural thriller.
I never read them. Are they good?

inked

08-11-2005, 08:20 PM

Inkspot,

Here's a listing of the available novels:
WAR IN HEAVEN, THE PLACE OF THE LION, THE GREATER TRUMPS, MANY DIMENSIONS, SHADOWS OF ECSTASY, DESCENT INTO HELL, and ALL HALLOW'S EVE.

That is publication order, by the way from 1930 through 1945. But this is not a series as in TCON. These novels may be read in any order. I find them quite good and not your run-of-the-mill novel by any criteria. As regards recommendations, you might wish to start with WAR IN HEAVEN or THE PLACE OF THE LION. The former is a struggle over the Holy Grail and the latter the invasion of the platonic archetypes into the world. All are conccerned with very Christian themes but not necessarily obviously so. DESCENT INTO HELL is perhaps the most chilling description of the turn to the abyss that I have ever read...about, of all things, an historian!

inkspot

08-12-2005, 11:00 AM

Wow! I will order one of them today. Thanx!

Checkmate

08-25-2005, 08:52 AM

Goldenrod22

08-27-2005, 02:22 PM

Thank you, Checkmate, for bringing it back on topic. This is Goldenrod speaking, the thread starter.

:)

I would like to see more books that are set in worlds apart form our own. But NOT anymore on other planets. That has gotten pretty old.

Have you noticed that while Tolkien wrote of Middle Earth as a place apart from where we are, and Lewis wrote of Narnia as a place apart from where we are, Rowling has Hogwarts on this Earth?
For one, look at the houses! Both LOTR and Narnia have an almost medieval feel to them, as if you were reading a tale that happened long ago in another land, far far away. In Rowling's world, you could practically sit down for tea with the Dursley family in their modern day house. It practically mimics modern-day England. Look at when Harry goes to the zoo in the HP movie and looks in on the captive snake.
I don't want this to turn into another Harry Potter-infested thread, so this is just a point I'm making, NOT anything else.

Anyway...what I am trying to say is: that if anyone could tap into this idea of writing in a non-modern way, like a fairy tale, then maybe we could get somewhere. You could have some sort of way of getting into the world, or the world could already exist. Then, the time frame within the world could be altered to reflect a fairy-tale like existence. Look at what story you are trying to present: For children, having a character (like Lucy) come into a magical world might be better. But for adults, creating a world from scratch as if it always existed, could be an alternative (like LOTR).
I say it as if it were the easist thing! :D But in reality, creating a fantasy book is probably both hard work and imaginative work. Realism within the world can only be obtained by a really skillful writer, I think. At the same time, if you write the words "The squadron of lobster soldiers moved in closer, and Daley could tell that the diversion had not been a success," then you might catch some child's imaginative eye.

inkspot

08-27-2005, 03:53 PM

Rowling has Hogwarts on this Earth?
For one, look at the houses! Both LOTR and Narnia have an almost medieval feel to them, as if you were reading a tale that happened long ago in another land, far far away. In Rowling's world, you could practically sit down for tea with the Dursley family in their modern day house. It practically mimics modern-day England. Look at when Harry goes to the zoo in the HP movie and looks in on the captive snake.
One thing that is cool about HP is just that -- he leaves the house on Privet Drive in modern England on a steam train to Hogwarts, and then he is in a medieval castle, dressed in robes, eating in a magical mess hall with cangles floating above the table -- the juxtaposition of HP's two lives is really well done and appealing.
At the same time, if you write the words "The squadron of lobster soldiers moved in closer, and Daley could tell that the diversion had not been a success," then you might catch some child's imaginative eye.
Caught my eye! Did you write that? What's it from?