Eowyn and Aravis

[faeriechylde]

Okay, I know that most people who like CoN also like LotR, so I thought I'd start a thread comparing and contrasting Eowyn and Aravis.
For one thing, Eowyn is my favorite character (or at least one of my favorites) in LotR, and Aravis is my favorite character in CoN, but what do they have in common?
Obviously, they both dress as males in order to run away, but for different reasons. Eowyn wants to go to war, and Aravis wants to escape an arranged marriage.
Does anyone else have any observations?

[DryadofLanternWaste]

I see them both as having emotions that they seek to hide, Eowyn is described as "cold" and "fair," I see Aravis in this same light (fair in the sense of pretty). They seem to long to be understood and treated as equals.
"She[Aravis] was proud and could be hard enough but she was true as steel." Aravis was nearly exilled from her house by her proposed marriage, and her resulting displacement and the loss of her brother, who seems to have been very dear to her, I deem as cause to distance herself from anyone and everyone.
Eowyn is forced to wait upon her fading Uncle as she watches her cousin die and Grima Wormtongue imprision her brother (book). All those she holds dear also seem to have been ripped from her hands.

Both of these women have cause to mistrust others and fear anyone who tries to befriend them.

that's my two cents, if I've misrepresented anything please correct me.

[faeriechylde]

Good job pointing out some similarities, Dryad! I think you represented both characters very well.
I think it's interesting that, not only do Aravis and Eowyn both run away dressed up as male soldiers, but they both ride horses. And not just any horses. Eowyn's is special simply because it's a horse of Rohan, but Aravis' horse Hwin is special because she's a talking horse.
Though both Aravis and Eowyn are from royal families, there are definitely differences in culture. Rohan and Calormen to me seem to be nothing alike... or are they?

[DryadofLanternWaste]

I don't know if I would make such a connection between Windfola and Hwin. Hwin was a faithful mare, wise and careful in her speech, wherein Windfola, who I believe was a stallion, threw his lady and Merry at the Battle of Pellennor(sp?) fields and galloped away.

I'm not sure that their lineage is truly comparable like you said, yet they both married into high houses, Aravis to the King of Archeland (Cor was King by then I think) and Eowyn to the Prince of Ithilien.

[faeriechylde]

Good points, however, one must not judge Windfola as faithless simply because he was "spooked," as they say, by the Nazgul. Apparently the Nazgul had that effect on pretty much everyone, and it took a very loyal hobbit and a very strong (and slightly suicidal) woman to stand up to the Witch King.
Besides, I hadn't meant to draw a direct connection between Windfola and Hwin: they obviously have their differences, especially because Hwin is a talking beast, which makes her infinitely superior. I simply meant to point out the similarities that Eowyn and Aravis were both horsewomen with good steeds.
I think the royal families of Eowyn and Aravis are slightly comparable, though not completely. Eowyn is only Theoden's niece, not his direct descendant, however, she is still a lot closer in relation to him than Aravis is to the Tisroc.
And Calormen and Rohan are certainly very different lands. Calormene culture has the flavor of Arabian Nights, while Rohan seems straight out of Beowulf. They are both warrior cultures, though.

[DryadofLanternWaste]

Another similarity is when each of these characters is in harm's way someone who loves them dearly aids them. In RotK Eowyn is about to be killed when Merry comes and stabs the Witchking beind the knee. As Bree and Hwin run toward the Hermit's house with Aslan chasing them Shasta turns back to help Aravis. Though both of these would be rescuers are weak they seek to help them (Eowyn and Aravis) in any way they can see/devise.

[faeriechylde]

Hear, hear. "Greater love has no one than this..." (John 15:13, NIV)

[DryadofLanternWaste]

Hear, hear. "Greater love has no one than this..." (John 15:13, NIV)

good quote, very fitting. There was another one I was thinking of, but I can't remember...

[inkspot]

Wow! You have come up with some good comparisons between two great characters.Would you say this young woman in man's garb is an archetype of literature, or Tolkien and Lewis both arrived at her independently?

[Daughter of Eve]

I was reading through, and was going to say something, only to find a post later on it was already said. :)

They're both very independant, hot-headed so to speak. Aravis' "so what if I'm a girl". Eowyn's whole thing about she can still fight.

I think, that were they ever to meet, they'd either be best of friends or hate each other.

I'm not sure if it's an archetype. I'm trying to think of some other stories (I know there are, I'm blanking on them right now) where other girls dress up as boys, etc.

[waterhogboy]

It happens in the film Shakespeare in love - and in the play by Shakepspeare, Twelfth Night. I can't think of any others though.

[inkspot]

Also in the Disney movie Mulan, which is a girl samurai. It is also interesting that in each of these literary (hmmm Disney?) examples, the girl, although arrayed as a man and sometimes fighting as a warrior, retains her feminine side and eventually lays down her fighting gear in favor of a romantic relationship.

[rosymole]

Is it sucha good example to set to young women? I don't know? I don't want to turn this into a political thread by any means.
I think in the Arabian Nights there are similar tales of disguise, and probably in ancient mythology too although I can't think of an examples - but, with the Greeks and Norse legends many fo their heroines were still able to war away merrily while still entrapping the men the desired.

[Daughter of Eve]

Ah yes, that did happen in the Arabian Nights. :) I wouldn't know about Shakespeare in Love, never seen it, don't plan on it. I've heard they ruined the REAL story. But that's for another place...

Yes, thank you! Twelfth Night was what I was thinking of. :D Now why can't I remember this when I want to? *sigh*

I don't know if it's an advisable thing to do, dress up as a guy. After all, you notice that in the end they all revert back to their feminism. And it isn't until after they do that, that they are truly happy. Maybe it's a message.

[inkspot]

Yes, I think the fact that their happiness is entertwined with their returning to their true nature as females makes the example a good one -- it shows girls that while they are capable of competition in a man's world, their best destiny lies in being exactly what God made them to be. Or is that real old-fashioned?

[waterhogboy]

Whoa! There's alot of girl-power in this thread. I might stand back and move away before I get a legion of feminists round me house!

[DryadofLanternWaste]

Concerning women and war, I found it interesting what C.S. Lewis says (through Father Christmas to Lucy) in LWW. "For you also are not to be in the battle... Battle are ugly when women fight."

Do you agree?

[inkspot]

I think this is probably true. In the American west, I read that some Native American tribes had their women do torture when they really wanted to mess somebody up, as if gals would know the best way to put the hurt on you...

[Daughter of Eve]

Yes, I agree with what Father Christmas said. Men have a natural desire to protect and defend those who are weak, ie. women and children. They (I've talked to friends who are in the military and this is what they all say) have to hesitate before shooting a woman. Women's place is not the battlefield.

[rosymole]

That's not stirctly true about men being the most effective in warfare- in modern times yes, but if you take alook back to the Vikings while the men were off plundering Europe the women had to defend their homes from other marauding hoards, and the women in battle were often considered the fiercest and most dangerous because of the need to protect their children etc. I think women show far more resilience than men in war time- they always seem to be the ones who are left behind at the end, but still manage to make life as normal as possible while the men are off getting themselves killed.

[inkspot]

This is Eowyn's very complaint, Rosy -- when Aragorn says her part of the battle is to stay behind and keep the homefront functional, and if the men should be defeated on the frontlines, then it will be her responsibility to hold out against the invaders as long as she can and make the best ending she can, despite the fact there will be no one left to sing of it ... and she tells him his words are the same as saying her part is to stay home out of the action and when he is dead, then she may have leave to burn with the rest of the household.

But perhaps this is another reason CS Lewis said through Aslan that battle is ugly when women are involved: by the time they are involved, it is a fight for the homefront, for their children, and so they are likely to be very fierce, like animal moms fight fiercely to defend their little ones.

[waterhogboy]

I think women are better at spy warfare as they're so good at being bitchy and manipulative! :D Hee hee! Sorry! Please don't hit me - I was only joking.

[rosymole]

Look out WHB *pokes in the ribs* - you don't want to encur the wrath of a whole thread load of rageful ladies!

What you say is very true Inkspot. I also suppose that his , Lewis, view of women in war would have been coloured by his own experiences, although I don't know a great deal about his earlier life- WWI &II etc

[waterhogboy]

Thats true. Women were very important during the war. I f it wasn't for them there would have been no-one doing the jobs of keeping the country running, making ammunition, the hospital and care works, etc.

CS Lewis probably saw women in this way, not that they were useless at fighting or unable to, but that there were other areas where there skills were needed - ie. the bottle of Lucy's for healing wounds. This is probably more useful than the other gifts put together.

Now I've been nice to women, am I forgiven for my earlier comment :(

[rosymole]

yes! *pats WHB on head and gives him a biscuit*

[benjamin_narnialover]

hey i'm new to this thread, and i hope it's ok if i draw the thread back to the original topic (of eowyn and aravis instead of feminism) so i can get my point in.

i do think there are a lot of similaities between the two women. the most interesting (to me at least) difference between them is that eowyn dresses up as a man because she wants to die in battle and aravis disguises herself as a man because she's seeking a new life in narnia.

i apologise again from distracting from women in battle theme, which is very interesting, and i apologise if i get any facts on the books wrong.

[inkspot]

No apology necessary, that's a very astute observation. Perhaps the fact that LOTR's gritty realism is darker than Narnia has something to do with it ...