Ghosts

[Skandar's Gurl]

Hey everyone i was at church and we were discussing the matter of ghosts and "hauntings" so i was wondering if anyone here has an opinion w/ or w/o an experience that ghosts are or aren't real or a simple yes/no i don't think ghosts are real

[♣Teh Deviant♣]

oh man kewl kewl topic I LOVE THIS STUFF :eek: :D
When I was about 7, I went to an acting summer program (not staying overnite thank goodness) and the building in which it was in was very old; it was haunted. REALLY!Whenever you entered you get a really bad feeling. Almost would make you sick. It was an old theater. I mean like 200 years old!Well, maybe 100...but I htink its more than that, so 200. xD
Well, MY bad experience was that first off, I was introduced to the kids by singing "Tomorrow" from Annie to them, and the retard (xD) playing the piano would go as loud as my voice and louder, pounding the keys on the piano, and there were NO microphones to boot!So, that was horrible...you couldnt hear my lovely singing voice xD!
But the worst thing was that it cost $800, and thiswas the climax of it:
One day, I was walking down a hallway (VERY scared) and out of NOWHERE came a cd case hit me on the lip (the very corner of it, the sharp edge, well one of the sharp edges)!!!!!! My bottom lip got swollen and was bleeding like crazy! Lets just say the ppl that hated me, comforted me!
Well, after fights with the counselors (including the retarted piano guy xD) My mom got her money back, but I will never get my confidence back!

and apart from that, a dead prince haunts my bathroom. RIP.
i have a pic of him....from when he was alive....i dont go to that bathroom anymore... :o

[Gryphon]

Ghosts dont exsist. However, evil spirits do. When you walk into a place and feel cold/bad it could be because the holy spirit inside of you is sensitive and knows whats going on inside that house when you dont. I also believe that when a person dies they go to either one of two places. I also wouldnt put it past a demon to desguise themselves as dead people in order to keep Man from knowing what it really is thats inside a house.

My friend moved into a house one time and he had two little brothers that were toddlers. When they moved in the two little boys were scared and didnt like the house. My friend and his parents sensed there was something wrong about the house. Finally they walked around the house praying in the spirit and after that the two little boys felt better about it and were normally giddy as they aready had been.

Do i believe in ghosts? no, no i dont. do i think that demons would try to cover themselves up as ghosts? i wouldnt put it past them. They hide as things all the time... anger, bitterness, lust ect. After all satan is the prince of lies.

[makeascenerachel]

Here is my theroy about gosts they R real But they can't hurt U they R Just memories of the past.........

[♣Teh Deviant♣]

Nice theory. Anyone. I have. Pic. Of dead boy. Haunts bathroom.....

[~JadisTheWhiteWitch~]

Nice theory. Anyone. I have. Pic. Of dead boy. Haunts bathroom.....
oh really? well I believe in Ghost I don't speak much of it to anyone

[♣Teh Deviant♣]

Yea, even my friend (whose a total skeptic) got, like, posessed in there! :eek: i actually enjoy being scared (who doesnt). the last time i posted the pic of the dead boy who haunts it, my pc froze. :rolleyes:

[Gryphon]

okay, lets think about this logically. The bible states that there is only two places a human soul goes after death, Heaven or Hell. There is NO WAY they stay on Earth. NONE! So, "ghosts" CANT be human souls. So what's left? They cant be angels because angels from God come in the form of humans to help Man or minister to them, not to haunt them. So whats left? DEMONS!!!

They can disguise themselves, even as dead people. (such as *Skandars Queen*'s prince) and keep Man from realizing what it is that really IS haunting the house. (or bathroom whichever the case may be) :D

Demons are crafty little buggars however they can be exposed. once again, satan is the prince of lies and his followers arent any better.

[QA48]

I love these kind of thigs....anyways id on't believe in ghosts bc i think they're just demons messing with the human minds :cool: Just like that shadow of a man that was standing in front of my bed during my senior year in high school was just that..... :(

[unleavened]

okay, lets think about this logically. The bible states that there is only two places a human soul goes after death, Heaven or Hell. There is NO WAY they stay on Earth. NONE! So, "ghosts" CANT be human souls. So what's left? They cant be angels because angels from God come in the form of humans to help Man or minister to them, not to haunt them. So whats left? DEMONS!!!

They can disguise themselves, even as dead people. (such as *Skandars Queen*'s prince) and keep Man from realizing what it is that really IS haunting the house. (or bathroom whichever the case may be) :D

Demons are crafty little buggars however they can be exposed. once again, satan is the prince of lies and his followers arent any better.
I'm with you Gryphon. "Ghosts" are actually demons. Why would they go to all this trouble? Well, deep down people know there's a spiritual world, so if you can give them the faintest hint of a fulfillment in the opposite direction from God, they'll most likely follow it. So in my opinion it is a destraction technic. If people are looking for ghosts (or UFOs or palm readings or...the list goes on) they're not looking for God. At least that's what I think it's purpose is in this day and age. It can of course be used in other ways.

[Parthian King]

I had a pastor who stayed as a guest (while preaching locally) in a large historic home in the southern U.S. Between his room and the bathroom was a narrow little hallway. When at night he opened the door to go and brush his teeth, he saw a woman standing there in a gown and robe, with a very sad expression and a knife in her hand. She looked at him and turned, and walked through the door into the bathroom. He immediately opened the door and nothing was there. He went to the owner, who said that a woman had committed suicide in that room.

It is my belief (along with the previous posts) that a demon--the spirit of suicide if you will--adopted the spiritual expression of its last "victim." It is not the soul of the woman, but a demonic force. My pastor prayed, and the house was cleansed and no longer had that apparition. His prayer was a casting out of demons, not some wacky process so that a human soul could "complete" something or get some question answered or communicate with someone.

I see these shows where there's all this attempt to "talk" to ghosts as departed souls. The only thing that should be said is "Get out in the name of Jesus Christ." You don't converse with the devil--you take authority over him. Anyway, that's they way I read my Bible.

[Gryphon]

PK, Unleavened, if i knew you two in person im sure i would hug the both of you very, very tightly at this moment, thank you for posting. :D

[inkspot]

I agree with PK, UL and Gryphon. Real "paranormal" stuff isn't caused by ghosts, but evil spirits/demons. So if you see a ghost and it seems friendly and wants to talk, etc. don't trust it. Cross yourself and tell it in the name of Jesus to be gone, or else you just run yourself away from it. Better not to have anything to do with them.

I always refer back to Professor Charles Kraft of Fuller Theological Seminary, who lived and worked among primitive tribes in South America and had experience with spiritism and this sort of thing, and it is his opinion demons are behind all of it, and if you are forced to confront it, you can only do so in the power of Jesus.

[♣Teh Deviant♣]

:( But MY ghost was murdered....in a cellar...w/ his family....
He was Hemophiliac, and a joy to be around, http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e166/This_is_Neverland/alex27.jpg
does that seem demonic to you? :(
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e166/This_is_Neverland/365ecc52.jpg
I htink Iam gonna dedicate something to him...
Rest In Peace Malenkaya
1904-1918

[QA48]

:( But MY ghost was murdered....in a cellar...w/ his family....
He was Hemophiliac, and a joy to be around, http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e166/This_is_Neverland/alex27.jpg
does that seem demonic to you? :(
]

not really.... :o you can either believe that: that person's soul went to either heaven or hell, Or that a demon is borrowing that person's image to do its work....

[♣Teh Deviant♣]

not really.... :o you can either believe that , that person's soul went ot either heaven or hell, Or that a demon is borrowing that person's image to do its work....

oh ok thank you now i understand...i thought that u guys meant the person IS a demon...and i was like...not him.... :eek:

[inkspot]

No, no, not the person. People are just people, and their souls don't hang around after they die, they move on to their next destination. But demons may try to convince us they are the ghost of the dead person. Also, like on TV when someone says they have a message from a dead person, they may really believe they do, but if they are actually hearing any message, I think it is coming from an evil spirit, not a departed soul.

[AslansChild]

Your right ppl. My dad is a pastor and I asked him what exactly where ghosts, I was watching Travel, History, or Scifi, and he replied that he believes they are demons. I totally agree with him and its sad that ppl try to contact dead ppl.

[~!Naty!~]

Hey everyone i was at church and we were discussing the matter of ghosts and "hauntings" so i was wondering if anyone here has an opinion w/ or w/o an experience that ghosts are or aren't real or a simple yes/no i don't think ghosts are real


Yes ghost are real but they are demons that use the image of a person.. I have seen a ghost before and it was just normal walking around but then i realized it is not something from god so i prayed that god can take these demons away and for me not to see them any more and ever sence i havent seen one

[Aslan's Son]

Personally, I don't believe in such things as "ghosts" or "spirits" or "hauntings", for there's no such thing. To me, a supposed "ghost" is either a) an angel, or b) a fallen angel (a. k. a. demon). Those supposed "ghosts" that protect people (I've heard of cases as such) are probably people's guardian angels or just a general angel, while others are demons. And those people who supposedly can "talk to the dead" are just hacks. They're either faking it or dabbling in what they shouldn't be, as, like I've said in the witchcraft thread, they don't know what they're truly contacting, and if they manage to get information right about supposed "hauntings", it's coming from Lucifer himself, not the supposed "spirits" as they're so called.

[Rhyanidd]

I believe that Ghosts are Demons.....

[Gryphon]

To me, a supposed "ghost" is either a) an angel, or b) a fallen angel (a. k. a. demon).
as i have said earlier, it CANT be an angel from God. God uses his angels to minister to us, not to haunt us.

[Gryphon]

oh ok thank you now i understand...i thought that u guys meant the person IS a demon...and i was like...not him.... :eek:
heck no, but i thought finding a stray hair in my sink was bad... its possible you have a DEMON in your BATHROOM!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Aslan's Son]

as i have said earlier, it CANT be an angel from God. God uses his angels to minister to us, not to haunt us.

I never meant that in the term of the word "haunt", so I really don't understand where you came up with that (not trying to be mean or anything, so don't think I'm trying to be like that). There's no such thing as a "haunting". I think that a few rare cases are more along the lines of guardian angels rather than demons.

[Green Knight]

To quote Shakespeare, "There are more things in heaven and earth, then are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horoatio."

Ghost are your subconscience playing pranks on you. Perhaps, there is a type of energy field or fields that record events of the past, and when a person sees a ghost, they have somehow tripped the equivalents of a rewind and play buttons. Who knows, what is in the Bible is just one explaination.

[QA48]

I never meant that in the term of the word "haunt", so I really don't understand where you came up with that (not trying to be mean or anything, so don't think I'm trying to be like that). There's no such thing as a "haunting". I think that a few rare cases are more along the lines of guardian angels rather than demons.

That depends on what the person felt when he/she saw the sighting. If he/she feel peace, then its an angel. If he/she feels fear then its definitely a demon.

[Aslan's Son]

That depends on what the person felt when he/she saw the sighting. If he/she feel peace, then its an angel. If he/she feels fear then its definitely a demon.

Exactly what I'm saying. ^_^

[♣Teh Deviant♣]

heck no, but i thought finding a stray hair in my sink was bad... its possible you have a DEMON in your BATHROOM!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

:eek: Seriously!?! Well, I was hoping it was my overactive imagination...but when even the dog wont go near the bathroom...I have proof enough to be scared..I dont go in there...anymore....
thanx for the info guys. I really havent read about ghosts in this light...

[inkspot]

Skandar'sQueen, I don't know if your family is religious, but you could ask your priest or pastor to come and bless the house, you know, and command any evil spirits to leave. Some people when they first move into a house, just have their pastor or priest bless it or dedicate it. Also, in the Protestant tradition, your mom or dad could do it if they are believers, just declare your whole house and family to be under the protection of Jesus Christ and command any evil spirits to depart.

[Señor Puntos]

Hehe, demons and ghosts....hehe..he..he....

I don't believe in ghosts, but I used to believe that when you die your soul drifts around for all eternity, seeing and hearing, but not touching or tasting or smelling, and they couldn't affect anything and they keep trying to kill themselves but it didn't work.
I don't believe in that anymore, it's kinda cynical.

[Gryphon]

wow, really depressing there Jimmy :p anyway, no harm done Ged and Aravis is right. usually the Holy Spirit inside of you is telling you what this "ghost" really is.

[♣Teh Deviant♣]

Skandar'sQueen, I don't know if your family is religious, but you could ask your priest or pastor to come and bless the house, you know, and command any evil spirits to leave. Some people when they first move into a house, just have their pastor or priest bless it or dedicate it. Also, in the Protestant tradition, your mom or dad could do it if they are believers, just declare your whole house and family to be under the protection of Jesus Christ and command any evil spirits to depart.

Some of my family is. Luckily, the house where this bathroom is at is that part of the family that is religious....my grandparents. But they don't beleive my ramblings of a ghost/demon in the bathroom! :eek: But, it doesnt seem liek a demon..I know they might use other forms to liek hide themselves from the person (in this case..me :eek: ), but once, i dont know if this is good or bad, I saw 3 balls of light or energy floating around my head in the bathroom. Is that good?
Also, what do you guys think about Ouija Boards?

[Parthian King]

Some of my family is. Luckily, the house where this bathroom is at is that part of the family that is religious....my grandparents. But they don't beleive my ramblings of a ghost/demon in the bathroom! :eek: But, it doesnt seem liek a demon..I know they might use other forms to liek hide themselves from the person (in this case..me :eek: ), but once, i dont know if this is good or bad, I saw 3 balls of light or energy floating around my head in the bathroom. Is that good?
Also, what do you guys think about Ouija Boards?

The "balls of light" thing I have had some personal experience with, and associated with a presence or other manifestations that are malevolent--no, that's not good.

Ouija boards are very bad--divination and definitely of the Enemy. I have known and heard of many who get involved in that stuff and end up with fears and problems that can't get rid of until someone delivers them spiritually.

I don't believe in addressing these issues by fear. It's kind of like a big mean dog the neighbor keeps. You can't enforce that others don't keep dogs like that, but you can make sure you don't mess with it. And if it comes near you or tries something, well, there's a charge that goes through you, but if you keep your wits the dog will lose the fight everytime. There's nowhere in the Bible where it says to be afraid of the devil. We are to have a respect for him like you do for a big mean dog, and because he used to be an angel (in other words, respect for him in that way is a respect for how God made him).

Now, that thing about a dog is an analogy, and they always break down at some point, but I think you get my meaning. If you are a Christian, you yourself have authority over demons in the name of Jesus Christ. You can tell them to get out. But many people find this just too hard to swallow, so in that case I'd recommend what Ink says: Get a minister to go in there and cast that stuff out. We are children of God--we don't need to submit to those kinds of fear and intimidation.

[inkspot]

I think if you seriously seek advice from a Ouija board either nothing happens, or you and your friends sub-consciously make something happen, or an evil sppirit speaks through the thing. I don't think it is a good thing to fool around with.

[QA48]

I think if you seriously seek advice from a Ouija board either nothing happens, or you and your friends sub-consciously make something happen, or an evil sppirit speaks through the thing. I don't think it is a good thing to fool around with.

yeah my mom says that she used to play that game when she was little with her brother, and my uncle (who's not a christian) claims to always see the eye of the devil wherever he moves in. My mom said the same when she was little,they used to play it in her room, but because she was seeing things they had to move her aways from that room and that's when my uncle moved in......

[♣Teh Deviant♣]

Thanks Parthian King and Inkspot.
I've never tried a Ouija Board because my family wont let me...but the thrill of wanting to know what would happen if i used it is immense. :o
I actually thought that 3 balls of light/energy would be good....how can evil manifest itself into orbs that are warm and glow? Must be another one of those trickeries?
I know I have so many questions, but I never spoke about this before to anyone or anywhere except my friends (and how many true things can a bunch of rabid fangirls say? :D ;) :rolleyes: ).
Thanks for all your inputs.

[Aslan's Son]

Ouija boards are, in my opinion, practically gateways to Hell-not literally to "Hell", but they can be used to contact demons, even though one may not think they are. A girl in my Creative Writing class (whom I've never gotten along with) told me that before she was saved, she played with one of those, and it actually caught fire. That there's pretty scary to encounter, much less think about. My mum had one (and my very conservative Baptist grandparents knew about it), but she never used it to contact spirits or anything. In fact, she and her friends would move that heart-shaped thing around themselves and ask it the stupidest questions. However, I still don't think Mum should've used one of those, even though she says it was just for "fun". But she knows that they're evil and shouldn't be used either.

[QA48]

Ouija boards are, in my opinion, practically gateways to Hell-not literally to "Hell", but they can be used to contact demons, even though one may not think they are. A girl in my Creative Writing class (whom I've never gotten along with) told me that before she was saved, she played with one of those, and it actually caught fire. That there's pretty scary to encounter, much less think about. My mum had one (and my very conservative Baptist grandparents knew about it), but she never used it to contact spirits or anything. In fact, she and her friends would move that heart-shaped thing around themselves and ask it the stupidest questions. However, I still don't think Mum should've used one of those, even though she says it was just for "fun". But she knows that they're evil and shouldn't be used either.

Exactly^^ You're good :cool:

[inkspot]

SkandarsQueen, I don't know about the balls of light, I never heard of or experienced such a thing. I wouldn't worry about them.

[Parthian King]

I actually thought that 3 balls of light/energy would be good....how can evil manifest itself into orbs that are warm and glow? Must be another one of those trickeries?

And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
(2 Co 11:14)

OK, real quick here: I am not saying with authority what that experience may represent. I haven't been there, seen it, or even been able to ask questions (meaning in person, get the setting, etc., etc.). Hey, I had a kid jump on my back one time to make a basket in a ball game and he was bigger than I thought and I saw stars. It might be a lot of things.

But when in college I was part of a Christian fellowship. We were doing a lot of praying for people, and I can tell you we (my friends and I) went through a period of undeniable spiritual conflict. We were in a dorm where people did a lot of not very Christian things, to put it mildly. Some of them were very messed up. So some of my friends were experiencing strgnage things in their dorm rooms, usually at night.

One night I had gone to bed, and was going to sleep. We lived in a suite: Two rooms with an adjoining door between them. (My roommate was into witchcraft, but two two guys in the other room were strong Christians--and yes, we three made the witchcraft guy really miserable with the Jesus stuff we pulled in case you were wondering). Anyway, all of a sudden my friend opens the door and says some foul presence is in there. I go in and we pray, and it clears. They said balls of light were floating around, and a very hostile presence. Similar things happened to another friend in another part of the building.

So that's why I said what I said. If you put things together, I would take it as another sign of a hostile presence and pray against it. If it is from God, after you invoke the name of Christ and invite the Holy Spirit, it'll stay if it's good. You can't cast out the devil if it turns out to be the Holy Spirit, and God won't be offended by you praying just in case. If it's bad, it won't be able to stay. We mortals shouldn't mess with the supernatural or take it lightly, that's why what we do we do in Jesus' name.

[Señor Puntos]

Some of my family is. Luckily, the house where this bathroom is at is that part of the family that is religious....my grandparents. But they don't beleive my ramblings of a ghost/demon in the bathroom! :eek: But, it doesnt seem liek a demon..I know they might use other forms to liek hide themselves from the person (in this case..me :eek: ), but once, i dont know if this is good or bad, I saw 3 balls of light or energy floating around my head in the bathroom. Is that good?
Also, what do you guys think about Ouija Boards?
As an agnostic (I've decided I'm not an athiest anymore) imagine what I think right now. Picture this: I just said that a leprechaun suddenly appeared in my room and did an Irish jig. You'd be a little creeped out right?

No offence by the way if you take any, I was just saying reall. I don't understand this universe, and I don't understand what happens in it. Actually, this might be the proof I need to be a christian. I'm just scared it could be the wrong religion.

[Parthian King]

(I know this is a bit off subject, but it also seems the right thing to say here):

I don't understand this universe, and I don't understand what happens in it. Actually, this might be the proof I need to be a christian. I'm just scared it could be the wrong religion.

Jimmy, I don't understand everything by a loooong shot. Have you read Lewis' Mere Christianity? Or his Surprised by Joy? They may really help you.

I say this with great respect, but I think if you think about Christianity as a religion, you will always be like a ship passing in the night (sorry for using pirate terms--wrong thread!). The point is who is Jesus? If you focus on Him and His claims, then you'll be able to see the issue more clearly. Of course, first you have to clear up what you feel about there being a God, and what He's like and all that. That's why I recommended those books.

Jimmy, I like the way you think and your honesty.

[inkspot]

Jimmy, I like the way you think and your honesty.
Especially that part about the leprechaun! I loved that!
And I agree with PK, if you are able to devote yourself to a good, adult book, try Mere Christianity. It doesn't start out all about Christianity, it starts out basically helping you decide whether or not there is a God. It's very helpful if you are undecided.

[Christine Marie]

i dont know if this is good or bad, I saw 3 balls of light or energy floating around my head in the bathroom. Is that good?
What you described sounds like orbs
http://www.ghoststudy.com/a_what_are_orbs.html

I agree with some of the others, you should get your home blessed. It seems like you have some sort of restless "spirits" there

[♣Teh Deviant♣]

What you described sounds like orbs
http://www.ghoststudy.com/a_what_are_orbs.html

I agree with some of the others, you should get your home blessed. It seems like you have some sort of restless "spirits" there

Yes, I know, and thanx for the link.
I watch lots of shows like "Haunted" and "Wierd Travels" (I just love getting scared! ) and I've seen them before. Except, I was deep in thought when I saw the 3 floating (well, actually they were dancing) balls of light. I didnt even get scared! I just stared at them bobbing up and down and around.
This is going to sound wierd, but I actually used to write in that bathroom. :o Like books, and stuff. I dont know why but (its a bathroom for gods sake! :eek: :o :rolleyes: ) but that place fills me with inspiration...does that mean that I'm...unholy?????!!!!!
Becuase if the "spirit" is a demon, then why would a demon make me feel..good?!!??

[Gryphon]

nah, your not "unholy" it probably just means that being in that room gave you and excited feeling and gave you "the edge" to write. Still, be careful.

[Señor Puntos]

I just read a book on the subject, and I may have an answer to all you ghost witnesses.

Now, maybe when you were younger (3 or 4) you slipped over and banged your head on the bathroom sink, so of course whenever you went in there from then on you'd have a weird feeling, but you didn't know why. Now, seeing as you believe in ghosts (or you think it might be possible they exist) that's what you automatically think of. And when people pray to try to make the "ghost" to go away, it acts like a placebo, and makes you not feel weird because you think it's gone. Now, the orbs of light, I have no idea about that, but may I just say the cliche it was a trick of the light?

[glamel]

ghosts are not true, they are just the fruit of our wild imaginations,

[Señor Puntos]

ghosts are not true, they are just the fruit of our wild imaginations,
Yup, that's what I'm saying, like centaurs, and Gene Simmons.

[glamel]

Yeah, and people are just scared because they wanted to, and because they actually believe in one,
and sometimes we thought we saw one when in fact we dont,
We just thought that it is a ghost because the idea and belief that there is actually a ghost, remains in our brain.

[Ephinie]

This is an interesting topic. Here's my take on it...

From a Biblical standpoint, we know that souls do not stay on the earth after a person dies. They go to heaven, or they go to hell. That eliminates the possibility of a ghost actually being a departed soul. As for what they really are... there are numerous possibilities, and each individual case needs to be looked at uniquely.

First of all, the possibility that a "ghost" may be a demon masquerading as a dead person can't be ruled out. However, I think Christians (especially those of us brought up to believe that the spiritual realm is a very real place that influences our Christian walk) are too quick to jump to that assumption. I think that the majority of "ghosts" we hear about have a lot to do with active imaginations and people pretending things for fun. And yes, you can get really weird, creeped-out feelings about places even if there is nothing there. It's also possible that strange noises and/or lights happening in a given area may have a completely natural explanation. There is a lot about the natural, physical world that we don't know. It is human nature to imagine and create... that's probably why ghost stories and sightings are so prevelant. And it shouldn't be surprising that ghosts are said to be departed individuals, especially ones in historically rich areas. Old photographs are sketchy for identification purposes, and it's not all that hard to think that someone may visualize an image that can be equated to it. I'm not trying to downplay peoples' experiences, I'm just saying... the human mind is capable of more than we probably know.

Now back to the idea of ghosts being demonic manifestations. That's something that I really don't think we, as Christians, need to worry about in the least. I mean, if you feel that your house is "haunted" or has some sort of demonic influence in it, then by all means, pray. Or get a pastor or priest to come pray with/for you. I was taught that demons could inhabit a building, a room, or even an object. I can't count the number of times my parents had a "spiritual housecleaning" time, when they would walk through the house, praying and annointing the doors with oil. It was all I knew growing up, but even then, it honestly disturbed me. I was not sure why then, but here's a thought that came to me as I grew older: Do we ever see people casting demons out of buildings or objects in the Bible? No. Every time Jesus dealt with demonic influences, they were in regard to people. He cast demons out of people, but we never see him casting demons out of a place. It's the same way all throughout the New Testament with the Apostles and others in the early church. We don't ever see demons referenced as being attatched to objects or places. We only see them dealt with in the context of people. So to me personally, that says that I don't need to worry about a demon being in a room, an object, or any house that I may move into.

But again, if you're really scared by something, and you do feel you need to have a pastor or yourself pray over something... go ahead and do it. We can't pray too much, no matter what. And it's never good to be fearful... that's definitely something that can be dealt with through prayer.

[makeascenerachel]

OMG!!!!!!!! I saw a little girl sitting on the floor of my room in the middle of the night it freaked me out!!!!! she wuz reading a book & she turned around 2 look at me a few times...........I almost freaked out!!!!!!!!

[Saruman]

I think you have a very good take on the issue, Ephinie, although I believe that, just as much as we may entertain angels at "unawares," so I believe it possible that some of the "ghost" stories we hear about could actually involve a true spiritual entity, but one that is clearly demonic (as you mention, the soul of a person, once it has left its mortal frame, will go to one of two places, depending on what decision the person made in their heart concerning Jesus Christ during their lifetime).

I think as long as we know that Christ is in us and that we are in Him, then we ought not to fear any except Him (the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom), and that, if we do feel uneasy about something, or perhaps the enemy is launching "fiery darts" at us in terms of our emotions, our feelings, or about being afraid concerning something (since it is natural for us to be fearful), that we ought to give the attacks to the Lord in prayer. Trials and tribulations happen in more ways than one, not just per physical persecution. The enemy loves to toy with our emotions.

Very good observations on the subject.

[chuam8919]

Just curious, where is every Christian here getting the idea that you go to heaven or hell right after you die? As far as I know, Lazarus, Jesus' close friend, had been dead four days and he had absolutely no comment about what it was like to be dead. Jesus Himself had described death as a sleep at that time.

[Malacandra]

Then there's the Witch of Endor. Whistled up Samuel's ghost to talk to Saul. Ghostie was less than pleased and basically told Saul "What d'you think you're doing? Stop it! I'll be seeing you soon enough!".

[inkspot]

In one of Jesus' stories, rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16), the rich man dies and in hell looks up to see poor Lazarus comforted in the bosom of Abraham, and he talks to Abraham, so it sounds like everyone is dead, but awake and alive in heaven or hell.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Jesus seemed to think all this transpired as soon as the rich man and Lazarus died, and that Abraham, long dead, was already on the other side, awake and aware.

[chuam8919]

Then there's the Witch of Endor. Whistled up Samuel's ghost to talk to Saul. Ghostie was less than pleased and basically told Saul "What d'you think you're doing? Stop it! I'll be seeing you soon enough!".

That spirit was definitely not Samuel. According to the Bible, Saul died because he consulted a medium! [1 Chronicles 10:13-14] "Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance, and did not inquire of the LORD. So the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse."

[chuam8919]

In one of Jesus' stories, rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16), the rich man dies and in hell looks up to see poor Lazarus comforted in the bosom of Abraham, and he talks to Abraham, so it sounds like everyone is dead, but awake and alive in heaven or hell.



Jesus seemed to think all this transpired as soon as the rich man and Lazarus died, and that Abraham, long dead, was already on the other side, awake and aware.


No, that story Jesus told was a parable. Read verse 18 and then 19. Jesus makes that transition from talking about adultery to the story. Read the end of that story which tells the point Jesus tried to carry across in verse 31. "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Notice, it reads "even if someone rises from the dead". What Jesus had tried to tell them was that the religious leaders would not believe Him or any resurrected person if they do not heed what the Law and the prophets of old said about the Messiah or the future. (Read verse 14 and you find that Jesus was talking to the Pharisees.) At that time, the Pharisees and Sadducees were arguing over whether there will be a Resurrection when God comes to deliver His people as in Daniel 12.

And there also lies another problem. Abraham's bosom. Abraham was a human like us, except that he had the faith in God to go to a place he was not aware of. Therefore, Abraham also comes across the same end as us. He died at a ripe old age. There is no indication in the Bible that Abraham went to heaven at death. If that Lazarus in that story is to reside in Abraham's bosom, then in whose bosom does Abraham lie? Note that Elijah was even more righteous than Abraham. Abraham had to die of old age in the end. Elijah was transported to heaven without having to experience death. Yet, nowhere in the Bible does it even allude to Abraham resting in Elijah's bosom.

Next point, is when the rich man asks for a drop of water from Lazarus' finger to cool his tongue. Can any water quench hellfire when even the elements melt from that heat? (2 Peter 3:12). It also cannot be water of a heavenly nature for even the heavenly nature of Satan (he's still an angel though fallen) is no match for it. He will be vanquished with hellfire. (Revelation 20:10)

An important fact to remember. Romans 6:23 reads "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life." To say that the person has a soul of an innate immortal nature is direct contradiction to Scripture as seen above. A person gets the gift of immortality only when the gift of Jesus is received. There are only two alternatives for every soul. Those who accept Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice will live forever; those who do not accept Jesus will die. Eternal life is available only to those who accept Jesus.

[Aslan's Son]

That spirit was definitely not Samuel. According to the Bible, Saul died because he consulted a medium! [1 Chronicles 10:13-14] "Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance, and did not inquire of the LORD. So the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse."

Saul did consult a medium, the Witch of Endor, but the spirit was Samuel. Samuel's spirit predicted Saul's death.


1 Samuel 28:10-18

10 Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this."

11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" "Bring up Samuel," he said.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"

13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?" The woman said, "I see a spirit coming up out of the ground."

14 "What does he look like?" he asked. "An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."

16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy?

17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors--to David.

18 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."

[chuam8919]

Saul did consult a medium, the Witch of Endor, but the spirit was Samuel. Samuel's spirit predicted Saul's death.

No, the spirit was not Samuel for two reasons.

1) The apparition said that Saul would end up in the same place as Samuel. Samuel was a man of God. Saul most decidedly towards the end was not. God does not give a rebellious person the same rewards as one who is obedient.

2) As in the earlier text in Chronicles, Saul died because He paid heed to a medium and not God. Saul reaped the result of not consulting if God was on his side. If Saul had consulted God, he would have found out that he would lose and then his death could be averted.

With that added, King David, who would be the candidate for being with Samuel. "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." [Acts 2:29]

To make it all complete, here's a short list.

"The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10. "The dead praise not the Lord." Psalm 115:17.

About the apparition of Samuel, it did not take Satan a whole lot to come up with that prediction. Saul had strayed from God, leaving him fully exposed to what the demon could do. Also note, Saul did not see the apparition. Anyone who disobeys the commands of God leaves him unprotected and he can be killed by a demon. When the prediction was made, the demon could set it up and have him killed. If you fit this with that knowledge from that list of Bible texts, then what I have just said is valid for even Satan himself can turn into an angel of light, let alone a human.

[Aslan's Son]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the Bible have said that it was Satan who predicted Saul's death? Yes, Satan can assume many forms, as he's the great Deciever, but I can't seem to find anywhere that it was the Devil who appeared and not Samuel's spirit.

[chuam8919]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the Bible have said that it was Satan who predicted Saul's death? Yes, Satan can assume many forms, as he's the great Deciever, but I can't seem to find anywhere that it was the Devil who appeared and not Samuel's spirit.


True, in the earlier post I listed a little flow of thought that led me to believe it's a demon (I wouldn't say Satan because he's not omni-present). What should instantaneously ring warning signals is that only the witch "sees" the apparition. Could Saul or anyone trust that considering that Saul had strived to exterminate the rest of her kind? And note that Saul also did not hear the apparition. Saul just assumed that the witch was telling the truth. It was that trust in a witch that got him killed as stated in Chronicles.

[chuam8919]

Here are some more added texts to support why I believe it could not have been Samuel.

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." "His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Job 14:12, 21. "Neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:6

Back to the topic on ghosts. If a person dies and his soul goes to heaven or hell right after death, he gets his rewards for the decisions he make before Jesus' Second Coming. Yet, Jesus' Second Coming is said in Revelation to be when Jesus rewards people for their adherence to Him, eternal life. The doctrine that a person gets his rewards and punishments at death is contrary to Scripture's view of the Final Judgement. People will ponder at this, wondering how to reconcile that. the problem is, it's not the problem with Scripture, it's the pre-conceived concepts a person attaches to it. That's how many Christians fall into the trap of believing the 6 days of creation to be 6 indefinite periods of time.

Historically, this teaching of the immortal soul came a few centuries after the Church was established by the apostles.

As of yet, there's been hardly any stronger supporting Scriptural evidence for the view of the immortal soul :( . The witch of endor issue is where we cannot draw a more definite line. We need to compare it with more Scripture before accepting that doctrine. Agreed? :)

In the meantime, here's just a few more to ponder :P.

"For David is not ascended into the heavens." [Acts 2:34]

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." [Ezekiel 18:20]

"We shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, ... and the dead shall be raised incorruptible. ... For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." [1 Corinthians 15:51-53]

Here's an interesting bit of trivia. In the Bible the word immortal is used only once and the word immortality is used five times. Not one instance is either of these words used to describe a part of man that is always alive.

"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen." 1 Timothy 1:17

"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:" Romans 2:7

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Corinthians 15:53

"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Corinthians 15:54

"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." 1 Timothy 6:16

"But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:" 2 Timothy 1:10

*Note: All six references to immortality are either a description of God or describe a gift that is given to man from God, immortality is not an inherant aspect of man.

[inkspot]

So you think, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, that Jesus was using an impossible scenario to make His point? It's very strange, as all His other parables revolve around things which were very possible and commonplace: sowing and reaping, a man travelling when he's beat up by thieves, a woman who loses a coin, a shepherd who loses a sheep, a father who loses a son ...

Wonder why in this one instance, He told a story which was not only impossible, but deceptive? It surely makes it sound as if he believes souls in heaven can see and speak with each other and even with those in hell.

[chuam8919]

So you think, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, that Jesus was using an impossible scenario to make His point? It's very strange, as all His other parables revolve around things which were very possible and commonplace: sowing and reaping, a man travelling when he's beat up by thieves, a woman who loses a coin, a shepherd who loses a sheep, a father who loses a son ...

Wonder why in this one instance, He told a story which was not only impossible, but deceptive? It surely makes it sound as if he believes souls in heaven can see and speak with each other and even with those in hell.
His intent was not to be deceptive. During Jesus' time, the Jews were scattered all over, including Greece, etc. That idea of Abraham's bosom during that time (I don't know about now) had come about the mixture of Greek lore and Jewish beliefs. That convolution does happen occasionally, though I don't know how they twisted it to become Abraham's bosom. What Jesus was doing when He said that parable, was to illustrate His point on the Pharisees not paying heed to the prophecies through using the analogy of that belief the Greek Jews had at that time. All present had known what Jesus was talking about because that was "common" talk amongst the Jewish merchants traveling from Greece.

[inkspot]

I see what you are saying. I just find it curious, if this scenario was out of the realm of possibiity, that Jesus would use it, when all His other stories are so very down to earth and directed right to the heart and experience of the people He was speaking with. If the others are all quite credible as things which could certainly happpen, it seems odd in this one instance that He stepped out into fantasy which He had never done in any parable before, as far as I know, or after ...

[chuam8919]

I see what you are saying. I just find it curious, if this scenario was out of the realm of possibiity, that Jesus would use it, when all His other stories are so very down to earth and directed right to the heart and experience of the people He was speaking with. If the others are all quite credible as things which could certainly happpen, it seems odd in this one instance that He stepped out into fantasy which He had never done in any parable before, as far as I know, or after ...
I suppose it's probably due to the fact that only some far-fetched idea, which the Pharisees knew is wrong, was needed to drill it in. They kept drilling Jesus with all sorts of questions trying to find a loophole to bring Him down. I think Jesus was using an outrageous concept to pump it into them that they would not believe Him if they didn't believe all of the law and prophets.

[.:~NikkitaTheJust~:.]

my theory on sp00ky gh0sties....its all in ur head!

[chuam8919]

my theory on sp00ky gh0sties....its all in ur head!
Not exactly. It has been predicted in Bible prophecy that there will be an increased interest in the occult, heeding the deception of these aparitions.

[Tsukiko]

Ghosts are not real. i mean like vampires and all those other creepy stuff is NOT real at all..but my friend at school thinks witchs are real!! Oh come on who believes in that stuff.....

[chuam8919]

Ghosts are not real. i mean like vampires and all those other creepy stuff is NOT real at all..but my friend at school thinks witchs are real!! Oh come on who believes in that stuff.....
Not the popular idea of what ghosts are. People think ghosts are these apparitions of departed souls. Again, unbiblical. Witches do have power, actually. But vampires, zombies, etc., no such thing.

[Gryphon]

uhh, witches exsist, but not the kind you find in fairy stories. Why would the bible speak against witchcraft if it didnt exsist? There are witches out there, a common practice of witchcraft is Wicca, and i can tell you, and you should know, there are people who follow it.

[Señor Puntos]

uhh, witches exsist, but not the kind you find in fairy stories. Why would the bible speak against witchcraft if it didnt exsist? There are witches out there, a common practice of witchcraft is Wicca, and i can tell you, and you should know, there are people who follow it.
Witches don't exist, ghosts don't exist, vampires etc. don't exist. Magic and stuff doesn't exist. otherwise some people would have seen them (and I'm not talking about any of those fakes).

{JK}

[Saruman]

Such hasty conclusions, Jimmy! My goodness, it seems you understand a great deal about these things than most other folk on this forum.

Gryphon's point concerning "witches" was accurate. They certainly are not those you see on cartoons that can fly on brooms, though they would certainly like to do such a thing. And they most certainly do not have any power. It's just an ancient practice that goes hand-in-hand with other pagan practices, but it is very dangerous speaking from a spiritual aspect. If they really understood what sorts of beings they were dealing with, they might think twice before they decided to open themselves up. At any rate, I've seen such a person who dabbled in witchcraft and brought to herself some unwanted company. It's something I really don't want to see ever again.

As regarding ghosts, you may be interested in some of the earlier discussion concerning the various thoughts on these "beings."

[chuam8919]

And they most certainly do not have any power. It's just an ancient practice that goes hand-in-hand with other pagan practices, but it is very dangerous speaking from a spiritual aspect. If they really understood what sorts of beings they were dealing with, they might think twice before they decided to open themselves up. At any rate, I've seen such a person who dabbled in witchcraft and brought to herself some unwanted company. It's something I really don't want to see ever again.
Quite close. Witches don't have power innately, which is why the Wiccans say they draw power from nature. But from a biblical perspective, any person who is possessed with a demon does have some extent of power. If Satan could control the elements as shown in the book of Job, think what would happen if one of his fellow fallen angels were to inhabit a person's body.

[Green Knight]

I'd read that "witch" was a mistranlation, and that the word was actually "poisoner". What most people think of as a witch was actually the village midwife and herbalist. They were turned into witches when the medical profession was trying to get them out of the baby birthing business.

[chuam8919]

I'd read that "witch" was a mistranlation, and that the word was actually "poisoner". What most people think of as a witch was actually the village midwife and herbalist. They were turned into witches when the medical profession was trying to get them out of the baby birthing business.Not exactly. The kind of witches that we're currently talking about have been present for a very long time. What happened with the herbalists and midwives was that the doctors were getting out of business because of them. So, using the age-old rumor method, started claiming that they were witches, who selled their souls to the devil. And, the people, being afraid of the such things, did the things now recorded in history. Yes, there has been a throwing of names around.

[Green Knight]

Not exactly. The kind of witches that we're currently talking about have been present for a very long time. What happened with the herbalists and midwives was that the doctors were getting out of business because of them. So, using the age-old rumor method, started claiming that they were witches, who selled their souls to the devil. And, the people, being afraid of the such things, did the things now recorded in history. Yes, there has been a throwing of names around.

That religion that you are speaking of didn't come into being unitl the middle of the last century. It was started by a man some consider an eccentric and a bit of a con-man. (No I'm not speaking about Hubbard.)

[Gryphon]

Okay, as for witchcraft, i believe that it opens doors for demons to come and manifest themselves. I totally believe in demons and that they work some bad crud in people and yeah... wicca is real... and yeah... i believe that what real witches take for as "spells" are actually demons working.

i cant say i've seen "witchcraft" but i will tell you that i've God work in people's lives. i've seen people get miraculously healed and heard demons being cast out. it's all real and to tell me it isnt is like telling me that airplanes are just myths.

[Señor Puntos]

(No I'm not speaking about Hubbard.)
Haha, nice one. :D

[chuam8919]

Erm, I couldn't help but notice it this time, but it's peculiar that hardly any other Christian around here has defended the popular belief of the immortal soul. Is it limited to just the reference to the apparition the witch of endor saw and the parable of the rich man and lazarus? Come on, :) this is a discussion thread, post your ideas! :D

[Parthian King]

Who's this Erm fellow? :D

[chuam8919]

Who's this Erm fellow? :DOh, no one. That was a sound I was trying to emulate. :D :D

[Parthian King]

Hhmmm. Spooky. But I thought ghosts said "Boooo." ;)

[Valkyrie]

I really don't want to read through all the posts right now, so I apoligize if this is said already. Ghosts are not evil spirits, evil spirits are just that.. spirits. They are evil energy sent by evil force, I don't believe in the devil but if you do then that is where it comes from. I personally believe that all nature has evil in it, everyone can be good and bad to a different degree. Such as Aslan was "good" but at any time could bite your head off. "He's not a tame lion". I don't believe anything really is. Back to topic, I was taught by my grandmother (who was a faux Catholic) that Ghosts are in fact a spirit of a person who was once in this world. A person who has passed from this world into the next. When you see a Ghost, you are in fact peering into the next world. I different world of sorts.. I guess the best way I could describe what I am talking about is if a glitch in time happened and you could peer into Narnia and see Peter walk by. He would appear as a Ghost. But where he is, it looks like he is still alive. And even we may appear as Ghosts to the other side. Now the reason explained to me as a child about where certain Ghosts tend to appear has to do with the spirit feeding off a certain energy that it recieved from a certain space and time. For example.. say I died. I shouldn't say died because I don't believe anyone really dies. But I will use the word. Say I died.. I love my house that I am living and my yard. I will probably appear within my bedroom and yard because my spirit loves the energy from being in that place. I would not do it purposely, it would just happen when my spirit passes the space taken by the areas which made me happy or sad. They also say that certain energy supplied by different things can trigger this glitch. If you are angry, you are more likely to trigger a Ghost sighting. Even your attention can trigger one, thinking about a deceased person will reach out a spiritual hand to them. Ask questions and then listen very carefully, you will likely hear something. Just a warning that opening a door may not be so wise if you intend on keeping it closed forever. Remember, we appear as Ghosts to them. Even structural aspects in our world can trigger things. A doorway that faces another, a doorway that faces a window, etc. Those things trigger doorways of sorts there in that we use them as openways. I've only two experiences with that, I will get into that later. Og course, the reason why they can pass through doors and walls in because there's no such structure at that place where they are.

And if you are wondering, yes I have seen Ghosts. I have spoken to them since I was a child because fortunately, nobody ever told me that it was wrong or not real. Children can see and talk to sprirts because they were never told otherwise. Remember talking to an "imaginary friend". Didn't they seem real at the time? Did you figure out they were fake or did someone tell you that? I would bet that someone, an adult, told you otherwise.. then how do you really know they were imaginary? They didn't believe so they didn't let themselves see them.

[Parthian King]

Ghosts are not evil spirits, evil spirits are just that.. spirits. They are evil energy sent by evil force, I don't believe in the devil but if you do then that is where it comes from.

C.S. Lewis considered disbelief in the devil to be a highly dangerous notion. In any case, using that as your starting point will certainly set you apart from the Christian worldview and understanding of the spirit world. What I find really odd, however, is the statement that "if I believe in the devil then that's where such and such comes from." Reality is reality--it is not a multiple choice test. Something comes from somewhere for everyone, or it doesn't--also for everyone. The devil either is, or he is not. I cannot dispell him or the Lord he rebelled against by non-belief, nor create either of them by belief. At this point I am not making a case for anything, just remarking upon the strangeness of your remark.

[Ithilien]

Valkyrie, that was a very Wagnerian post! Long but really interesting!

I don't know much about the subject of ghosts but have always disbelieved in their existence. I am curious, however, does the Bible say anything about ghosts? I know there is an instance where a prophetess calls on (was it?!) Samuel's spirit but did the Bible ever condemn or advocate the presence of ghosts?

[Valkyrie]

C.S. Lewis considered disbelief in the devil to be a highly dangerous notion. In any case, using that as your starting point will certainly set you apart from the Christian worldview and understanding of the spirit world. What I find really odd, however, is the statement that "if I believe in the devil then that's where such and such comes from." Reality is reality--it is not a multiple choice test. Something comes from somewhere for everyone, or it doesn't--also for everyone. The devil either is, or he is not. I cannot dispell him or the Lord he rebelled against by non-belief, nor create either of them by belief. At this point I am not making a case for anything, just remarking upon the strangeness of your remark.

Well, my comment about where evil stems from. I don't believe in the devil, but if someone does I respect their beliefs. If they believe that evil stems from the devil, then I'm not one to change it. But by my comment is that I am just trying to explain "evil forces". Where you believe they stem from is your business. I just figured having people picture where they believe the evil is coming from would make my statement clearer. Of course, not many here actually understand what I am trying to say. I am British and I guess that causes problems between both englishes. LOL.

Ithilien, by what do you mean "Wagnerian"? Sorry I tend to ramble trying quite hard to explain myself, as is to put into words what is running through my head. All gets horrid and jumbled as hard I try.

[chuam8919]

Owww... I really should reiterate for those who haven't been catching up on the posts then. I had listed in earlier posts my defense for my belief that the Bible does not advocate that when a person dies, they have an "immortal soul" that leaves their body and lives forever, either burning in hell forever, living in heaven forever, or in purgatory/limbo forever.

That being said, if you read my earlier post, it would be slightly harder to simply say that ghosts are the spirits of the departed if you're Christian. Now, this isn't to exclude those who aren't Christians. You can be free to join in as much as you want.:) The only thing is to be warned that it might get intense and you may not have an idea of what may be talked about. So, buckle your seat belts! :D

[Parthian King]

Well, my comment about where evil stems from. I don't believe in the devil, but if someone does I respect their beliefs. If they believe that evil stems from the devil, then I'm not one to change it. But by my comment is that I am just trying to explain "evil forces". Where you believe they stem from is your business.

Well, this is precisely my point. Your comments are such a depature from the matters ebing discussed in the thread so as to almost consitute the basis for a new thread. The issue, ostensibly, is whether or not ghosts represent a reality in the generallya ccepted sense. You propose a discussion based upon quite nearly religious belief in the purely relativistic sense, i.e., religious preference. So for me those are two different discussions. I believe what I believe (erroneously or no) because I believe it is true for everyone--not just those who would have it be so. You are willing for each to have their own reality as they see fit.

[Ithilien]

Owww... I really should reiterate for those who haven't been catching up on the posts then. I had listed in earlier posts my defense for my belief that the Bible does not advocate that when a person dies, they have an "immortal soul" that leaves their body and lives forever, either burning in hell forever, living in heaven forever, or in purgatory/limbo forever.



Right...heh heh...I remember now...

And Valkyrie, I thought your screen name was after the great (and long) Wagnerian opera. A misunderstanding...you can just ignore me...

[inkspot]

Valkyrie/Wagner, I got it! it was good, Ithilien.

To my mind, if you see a real "ghost," it is probably an evil spirit or demon masquerading as a ghost. I say this because of my religious beliefs. If I didn't have these beliefs, I would think it might be as Valkyrie said, like an imprint a person left on their environment.

[chuam8919]

To my mind, if you see a real "ghost," it is probably an evil spirit or demon masquerading as a ghost. I say this because of my religious beliefs. If I didn't have these beliefs, I would think it might be as Valkyrie said, like an imprint a person left on their environment.True, true. And that reminds me, the idea of the innately immortal soul did not come to the Church until quite a bit later.

Which reminds me, it would be nice for more to not be shy and post your findings of the Bible that supposedly support the idea of the innately immortal soul.

One more text from the Bible against it is this.
[Job 14:12] "so man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they shall not awake, nor be awakened out of their sleep."

[she-elfwarrior19]

I dont personally believe in ghosts like dead people who supposedly have unfinished business or w/e. I only believe in the Holy Ghost and now "scary" spirits from long ago comeing back to haunt.

[chuam8919]

..."scary" spirits from long ago comeing back to haunt.Huh? Isn't that the same?

[shmeepie]

ok, i'm not sure if anyone has used this example as of yet, but i'll say it anyway.

there is a story in the bible (i can't remember where exactly), where a guy wasn't living in the path of jesus, he hoarded money, didn't believe in jesus, things like that. when he died, he went to hell. he cried out to god and asked if he may go back to earth to warn his friends about their lives, and to tell them to follow jesus.

do you know what god said? he said no

now, if god wouldn't let someone who was dead go back to warn his friends to right their paths, do you think god would let someone who is dead come back to scare people and/or make people's lives a misery?

i think not.

[chuam8919]

ok, i'm not sure if anyone has used this example as of yet, but i'll say it anyway.

there is a story in the bible (i can't remember where exactly), where a guy wasn't living in the path of jesus, he hoarded money, didn't believe in jesus, things like that. when he died, he went to hell. he cried out to god and asked if he may go back to earth to warn his friends about their lives, and to tell them to follow jesus.

do you know what god said? he said no

now, if god wouldn't let someone who was dead go back to warn his friends to right their paths, do you think god would let someone who is dead come back to scare people and/or make people's lives a misery?

i think not.The story was used before here. But it was not God to whom the guy spoke to, but to Abraham. It's a parable that Jesus explained. What it meant is that if people don't believe what the Bible (the law and the prophets), nothing will be able to convince that person, not even a person raised from the dead.

[shmeepie]

yeah, that's the one...i was a little fuzzy on the details...thanks

[chuam8919]

Hey guys, a new question just popped up into my head about this. ;) Does the Bible ever state that we become disembodied spirits right after death?

[anna.the.gentle]

getting freaked out here....:eek:

[chuam8919]

:) There's nothing to be freaked out about. That's just the way they're called because the don't have a body. Thus the 'body' in disembodied.

[PeterC]

I think ghosts are innocent people who don't see eye to eye with god, but don't deserve the wraths of hell. However, most of them are demonic souls who wish to bring you down.

[chuam8919]

I think ghosts are innocent people who don't see eye to eye with god, but don't deserve the wraths of hell. Most of them are demonic. :confused: You believe humans turn into angels or demons as well after death?

[Lucy_Pevensie1990]

I completely believe in ghosts!

One night my father had a dream that his grandmother was a ghost, she told him. "Everything's alright, I just wanted to say goodbye." Two weeks later his mother called and said that his grandmother died the same night he had that dream.

[DaughterofGondor]

I guess i'm gonig with everybody and the demon/ghost thangy.. but I would be
[SIZE=7]SO SCARED I WOULDN'T THINK ABOUT IT! I WOULD JUST RUN![SIZE=7]

[Tsukiko]

I do not believe in ghosts at all, nor monsters or any other of that suff

[*IOWW the Iasc*]

Well...I don't believe in ghosts persay...more like Spirits...

I wouldn't believe it if things hadn't happend to my family and I, though...and events involving stuff like that happen alot in my family...unfortunatley...

[chuam8919]

(Now this is not intended to be harsh, just informational) I also addressed that kind of situation before. In this very moment what I'm about to say will seem far-fetched now, but time will unravel the truth. Satan and his fallen angels can very easily imitate facial expressions, looks, characteristics, etc. of every single person that has ever lived since the first human. The Bible is explicit that there's no consciousness after death until the passing away of the heavens. Of course, people refuse to believe that. You may say that "oh but there's no way it could be a demon, she acts and speaks and looks exactly like her!" but in reality it's easily replicable. I am not putting down anyone's hopes. What I'm saying is that there is a clear hope; the Resurrection.

King David is not yet in heaven, so why would anyone right now? Job and Ecclesiastes say there's nothing after death until the heavens pass away, which is what happens at Christ's return. And if your grandmother was a saintly person, would you feel better knowing that she wasn't in heaven to watch what you are doing right now? Wouldn't you feel better if you knew she didn't have to see your pain and that her next conscious thought is just that of seeing Jesus's face?

The beauty of the Resurrection is that everyone sees Jesus returning, without special privileges. All equality. Jesus promised a resurrection, and it will be given. The time may not be far off. If you think about it, it's actually better for a resurrection than going around disembodied. What I don't understand is why everyone so desperately wants to cling to the teaching that there's consciousness right after death. That one dwells on a hopelessness. A wanting to help that person if he or she is going around disembodied. The resurrection is one of beauty. It doesn't have any complications that are involved in the teaching of consciousness right after death. And it's what the Bible most plainly teaches. There's a strain in finding support for the teaching of consciousness right after death, whereas Biblical support abounds greatly for the Resurrection.

Why cling to something that's so ambiguously supported? That's what I'm trying to understand. The Resurrection is about hope, while consciousness right after death brings many mothers to despair. "Is mortal man more righteous than God"? Not from what I've read in the Bible. Would you want your dead relative floating around disembodied? Personally, that's a bit of a "turn-off"er. :o

[SpiritedWolf]

I have never told anyone this... I can see some ghosts, but they have to be important to me, and I have to have a completely empty mind... usually when I wake up, or fall asleep. I saw my dog the night she died, when I was 28 hours away from where she died, I was about 3 states over!

[Skandar's Girl]

you guys have lots of different opinions, i myself don't think i believe in them

[SpiritedWolf]

I think people don't believe in them because they havn't experianced them. Everyone does at one time or another, but some people see them more offen (like me, psycics)

[chuam8919]

I think people don't believe in them because they havn't experianced them. Everyone does at one time or another, but some people see them more offen (like me, psycics)If we could be immortal as ghosts, then there really isn't any need for a resurrection, is there?

[SpiritedWolf]

Well, I'm an athiest... so i don't believe in resserection. Maybe that's why I believe in ghost so much.

[chuam8919]

Well, I'm an athiest... so i don't believe in resserection. Maybe that's why I believe in ghost so much.An atheist that believes in the supernatural? Personally, that sounds like an oxymoron. Kind of contradictory, since typically atheists don't put much faith in the supernatural.

[SpiritedWolf]

Well, I honestly don't know my religion... I don't believe in god or any higher power, but I believe in the supernatural... what would that be called (if anything)

[chuam8919]

Well, I honestly don't know my religion... I don't believe in god or any higher power, but I believe in the supernatural... what would that be called (if anything)Not agnostic, since that implies a seeker...maybe it's called "freethinker".

[SpiritedWolf]

Thanks for telling me that... I really was wondering :D

[Copperfox]

Exactly 30 years ago, I was in the chorus of a community production of a Stephen Sondheim musical, and struck up an acquaintance with the male lead. He told me that his apartment seemed to be haunted, with manifestations like cabinets opening and shutting themselves. So I went and spent several hours there one evening, praying over the location in the name of Jesus. I don't know what _was_ there, but my actor acquaintance told me that the apparent haunting stopped after my visit.

[Solya]

Praying does usually help on occasions like that, yes. :) Especially minor manifestations of spirit activity such as cabinets opening and shutting themselves of their own accord usually disappear after prayer or after putting a protection around the house in general.

And yes, I believe in spirits. I have always been able to see/feel them. When I was little I used to talk with them, but as I grew older I realised not everyone was able to connect with them and so I ignored that aspect of myself for a very long time. It all came back again when I was 11 years old, because at that point I experienced an "emotional overload". Spirits tend to notice it when you're susceptible to their energy and then flock towards you in pretty huge numbers. I still feel and see them every once in a while, but I've always found it pretty much normal and so it doesn't frighten me at all.

I had some really bad and rough experiences with some of them. I have met spirits who tried their best to manipulate me and influence me in a bad way. Some of them make me feel sick to my stomach and others just make it all cold in a room and influence my breathing so much that it starts to become irregular. Yet I also meet spirits who make me laugh, who give me energetic hugs and who help me through some confusing and sad things. Feeling them is like having friends around for a visit, to be honest... it is just awesome to have them there for the moment and to be able to help them like they help you.

Sometimes it becomes too much to handle. My nightrest usually suffers around busy periods in the spirit world (such as Halloween :rolleyes: ) and I used to get sick often after a visit from many spirits at the same time. I am able to send them away if I don't want them near me and don't ever fear the ones I meet, but it's still got its downsides to be in touch with them. I guess that's the same as with real people, though... there are some you can stand and who come back for a visit, but there's also some you want to push as far away from you as possible.

[Narnia_Fan]

Weird things had been happening in my Uncles house. His girlfriend(which they might get married...might) has a younger sister who is really young and goes to palm readers and all that stuff. Well my uncles girlfriend kind of got pulled into the whole thing and weird things started going on in their home. They had just moved and they thought that the house was haunted. One time my mom went to their house to visit and my uncle's, girlfriend's aunt was there(make sense?) visiting also. Well they got to talking about the weird things going on and some freaky things happened such as. I am just going to call my uncles girlfriend gf. well GF was laying down in bed and all of a sudden she felt someone laying on top of her holding her down. She was soo scared but she couldn't scream, it was hard to breath and she saw the imprint of something putting pressure as if someone was there holding something down. Well that is only one thing that happened. It is creepy but my mom and the aunt talked to my uncle and GF and I think everything is good. Oh and now they are Christians as of about yesterday!!!

[Narnia_Fan]

OH sorry um no! I don't believe in gosts. I believe that they are demons and they are nothing to be afraid of. All I'd have to do is call out in the name of the Lord to leave and they would leave. There is more to this subject I am sure but I am not going to say much because I am yet an ameteur.

[SpiritedWolf]

I think my house is haunted, sometimes when I wake up in the morning and I have strange bruises on my legs and back. And sometimes I hear rocks being thrown at my window and nothing is outside (and it isn't a bird!). And once when I was younger and had my bedroom in the basement, I fell asleep. When I woke up my room furniture was repositioned differently. And my posters were all on the ground, I had my door locked, and my window was closed.

[Shadow Hawk]

If, you were sleep then how do you know it was not you sleep walking. :D or someone had picked the lock and moved the furniture. :D

[*IOWW the Iasc*]

I think people don't believe in them because they havn't experianced them. Everyone does at one time or another, but some people see them more offen (like me, psycics)

I know people who see ghosts.
I actually have a story that happend just recently to me and my cousin, along with his friends.
They( as in my cousin and his friends) decided to go into this really scary, and supposedly haunted, room with a ouija board (I despise these things, and I never want to use one ever). While doing so they found a ghost. He was murdered in the 1920's, and they solved his murder. Well, he's not really a ghost anymore. Having his crime solved 'set him free', I guess. And he went to heaven. Now he helps them ( becasue he's related distantly to 2 of my cousins friends) and answers questions...I mean...he didn't seem dangerous at all. He told me who my Guardian angels were, and told us how ebautiful heaven was.
but, after seeing all these posts about Ghosts really being demons, it worries me...becasue my house ( and my room, recently, becasue it's really scary in here at times) is haunted aswell...but, the Ghost has shown up in pictures for us and everything...I just...I don't know what to think now.
I know there's something, but, I can't see it as an evil spirit...

[pink-cheetah]

well GF was laying down in bed and all of a sudden she felt someone laying on top of her holding her down. She was soo scared but she couldn't scream, it was hard to breath and she saw the imprint of something putting pressure as if someone was there holding something down. Well that is only one thing that happened. It is creepy but my mom and the aunt talked to my uncle and GF and I think everything is good. Oh and now they are Christians as of about yesterday!!!

Something like that happened to my mom one night. Some people are just spiritually sensitive, I guess. She heard someone knocking on the door. (She thought it was my sister, who sleepwalks sometimes. This was quite a while back.) The next thing she felt was a sensation of something pushing down on her so much she could hardly breathe- similar to your story, NF- and then she couldn't feel my dad anymore (who was asleep the whole time). Either she was praying in her mind or out loud, but the presence went away.

My dad says- ghosts or demons, I'm not entirely sure- just tell the spirit to leave in Jesus' name.

[Solya]

My dad says- ghosts or demons, I'm not entirely sure- just tell the spirit to leave in Jesus' name.

Ghosts will be noticeably easier removed than demons, though both of them are practically bound to listen to you if you call upon God/Jesus to help you. And I mean literally bound to... they have got no other choice but to leave, because the energy you use when you call upon God/Jesus in prayer or anything of the sort is too much for them. Demons can't stand the energy, whereas ghosts cannot resist it because it reminds them of where they actually should be.

There's varying sorts of spirits and ghosts and demons are only a small fragment of them. :) Ghosts are usually the ones some people like to call earth-bound, so they haven't yet crossed over to Heaven or Hell. Demons and angels are a form of spirit as well, but they're pretty much polar opposites to one another. And then you have the regular spirits and some other ones that are not relevant to the topic as such. It gets pretty crazy in their world sometimes, lol, and if there are humans who open the gate between their world and ours they can't resist but come for a visit. :rolleyes:

[Samak]

I'm convinced that over the years i have had several such experiences.
The first was years and years ago, when i was small.
I was alone and i heard a strange voice saying things to me.
I'm convinced i didn't imagine this.
The other event, was also several years ago. I was lying in bed and i looked across the room and was sure that i saw a distinct pale steam of some sort. It just floated across my room and disappeared in the dark. . . I was terrified:eek: !
However, that was before i knew that "ghosts" are most likely unclean spirits disguising themselves and making a pathetic attempt to draw me away from GOD. Now i have NO fear of them, because i know i can make them more terrified, by simply rebuking them in The Name of JESUS CHRIST. When i say the name of JESUS i get filled with an overpowering sense of pride and invincibility that evaporates all of my fear.:D :D :cool:

[timbalionguy]

Thanks Parthian King and Inkspot.
I've never tried a Ouija Board because my family wont let me...but the thrill of wanting to know what would happen if i used it is immense. :o
I actually thought that 3 balls of light/energy would be good....how can evil manifest itself into orbs that are warm and glow? Must be another one of those trickeries?
I know I have so many questions, but I never spoke about this before to anyone or anywhere except my friends (and how many true things can a bunch of rabid fangirls say? :D ;) :rolleyes: ).
Thanks for all your inputs.

One Halloween evening, long before I was a Christian, I was out trick-or-treating with my brother. Suddenly, a ball of highly luminous blue light came from between the two houses on our side of the street, and flew about 20 feet in front of us. It was following a zig-zag path in that it would move forwards a ways, move back a little and then move forwards again. It was about 6-8 feet off the ground. It disappeared between the houses on the opposite side of the street. It was visible for at most, three seconds. This sighting was very consistent with the way ball lightning would behave (and I was aware of ball lightning and it's behavior at that age). But, there was no thunderstorm activity to generate ball lightning. To this day, this sighting remains a mystery.

[Tsukiko]

I have never told anyone this... I can see some ghosts, but they have to be important to me, and I have to have a completely empty mind... usually when I wake up, or fall asleep. I saw my dog the night she died, when I was 28 hours away from where she died, I was about 3 states over!

sorry to say this, and I know im sounding like a mean jerk, but, I dont believe you. Ghosts arent real. Spirits may be..like the Holy Spirit, but..no..not Ghosts.

[timbalionguy]

As an agnostic (I've decided I'm not an athiest anymore) imagine what I think right now. Picture this: I just said that a leprechaun suddenly appeared in my room and did an Irish jig. You'd be a little creeped out right?

No offence by the way if you take any, I was just saying reall. I don't understand this universe, and I don't understand what happens in it. Actually, this might be the proof I need to be a christian. I'm just scared it could be the wrong religion.

Not accepting any 'religion' is IMHO worse than accepting the wrong one. God knows those who seek after Him, even if they don't 'subscribe to the right beliefs'. If you want to believe anything, believe this: That all that call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (I started typing 'mane' for 'name', and realized that in the contest of this forum, that is appropriate, too!). (Romans 10:10-13) The same passage says that whoever believes in the Lord shall not be ashamed. Try it, and I honestly believe that the Lord will show you the right way to Him! (Romans 9 through 11 has a lot to say about those on the 'outside' being saved by simple faith.)

[timbalionguy]

Yeah, and people are just scared because they wanted to, and because they actually believe in one,
and sometimes we thought we saw one when in fact we dont,
We just thought that it is a ghost because the idea and belief that there is actually a ghost, remains in our brain.

The vast body of credible evidence out there about the existence of ghosts would prove your case wrong. I have experienced this 'credible evidence' firsthand, and know it could not have been faked. Ghosts are very real, even if we do not fully understand them.

[timbalionguy]

I have never told anyone this... I can see some ghosts, but they have to be important to me, and I have to have a completely empty mind... usually when I wake up, or fall asleep. I saw my dog the night she died, when I was 28 hours away from where she died, I was about 3 states over!

This is very interesting, as it discusses one thing that hasn't been discussed here-- the spirits of animals. Now, I know from personal experience that 'human' ghosts are very real. (Although I have never personally seen a ghost, nor do I plan to.) I lean towards the 'departed souls in the wrong place' camp, because that is what fits the typical ghost sighting the best. (I also believe that we do not fully understand what happens to a person's spirit immediately after they die.)

But onto the animal spirit thing. In Ecclesiastes 3:10-12, it discusses the fate of the spirits of man and animals. The spirit of man 'goes upwards', and the spirit of animals 'goes down to the earth'. Therefore, the spirits of animals (who I believe will also be redeemed with the rest of creation - Romans 8:18-23) are in the same 'compartment' as us.

Many books have been written about the spiritual nature of the bond we can have with animals as friends and companions. It was no mistake that God made animals this way, and we will shortly see why.

Some years ago, a lion died, who was very closely bonded to his keeper/trainer. They were the very best of friends up to the moment he died. When I heard about this, I was deeply distressed for weeks, because I know how much the keeper was hurting for the death of his 'best friend'. I, too was in a lot of distress at that time, as I was building my house here in Reno, and things were just not going well with the project.

One night while laying in bed, awake, thinking about all the problems and the death of the lion, the Holy Spirit whispered in my ear. God knew I was hurting, and wanted to make it right. So, in one of the most amazing and exhilirating experiences I have ever had as a Christian, I briefly met the spirit of this lion. This lion spoke to me in the sprit (without words, per se) and comforted me concerning his death. The very last thing he told me was that he loved me, too! I then laid there, and just drank in the ministry the Holy Spirit was giving me at that time.

Doubting the credibility of this, despite the overwhelming presence of the Holy Spirit (which was far stronger than the lion's spirit was), I asked God if what I had just experienced was legitimate. God the asked me this: 'What Am I?' 'Love' I replied, for scripture staes clearly that God is love. And at that moment, I was really feeling His love. God then said 'Well, I gave of some of my love to the lion, and he chose to give some to you'. God also said that a tiny bit of this lion's presence would always be with me, but that I would not notice it much after a while. In any case, I got up the next morning, and was 'walking 10 feet off the ground'! This was the strongest strengthening in the Lord I have ever recieved, and it keeps me drawing close to God when all else fails.

THere is also a strong message here that animals that we can bond with or relate to are channels of God's pure love. A bond with an animal should draw us closer to God, and they certainly do in my case. This to me also explains why the animal rights movement wants so badly to separate us from our animals-- they sense and are deathly scared of the love of God manifest through animals.

Since that time, I seem to have been given the ability to occasionally discern the spirits of animals, and especially lions. In one particular instance, while praying, I was bonded to the spirit of a dying lion for the space of about an hour. The lion was 2,000 miles from where I was at the time. The prayer worked; from that hour the lion improved and eventually fully recovered. Several years later, that lion really did die, and I wear a small bone of his on a chain around my neck to remind me of our deep bond.

Other people have had some very interesting experiences with animal spirits. One person I know, who is not a believer that I am aware of, had a cougar standing on the end of his bed. It was real enough that he detected her presence because he felt the bed sag. The next moment, she was gone. This cougar had died in his arms a week or two earlier. When I visited the grave of this cougar, a nearby tiger who was normally friendly towards me growled as I approached her grave. As I stood in front of the grave, I felt something forcefully hit me, but not physically. It was like the rough play of a cougar! When I turned around and walked away from the grave, the tiger quit growling and began chuffing (friendly greeting sound).

Another time, a friend of mine a couple thousand miles away was experiencing the death of a lion, who was bonded to her 'like a child'. The lion was only 2 years old, and died unexpectedly of complications of a latent birth defect. Whether it was the lion's distress or my firend's (also a deep Christian), I was sick that morning, just not feeling right and having a racing heartbeat. I actually went to the doctor, who told me to go ahead and take the vacation I was planning the next day. Four days later, I learned of the lion's death, and (while bawling my eyes out, as this lion should have lived another 16 years if it had not had the birth defect) I then realized why I had been specifically ill that morning. There is more to this story as well, including some amazing redemption that came from what had happened.

I do not usually go out of my way to seek out these 'lion spirits'. (Although they seem to be strong around the lion's physical remains, such as a rug, skull, etc.)They just show up every now and then, usually for just a few moments. And, I can almost always tell who it is. As time goes by, I notice a particular lion less and less, just as God said it would be. Others who I know who have had these sorts of experiences report the same thing. I believe that the animals are finding their place in the spirit world, until we are all redeemed together. I look forward to serving THE LION with my lion friends forever!

If you look through the old testament, you will find that there isn't a big deal made about sensing spirits (one case of this is mentioned in Job 4:12-17). The abominations mentioned in scripture seem to be associated with people who practice divination by these spirits. I am going to guess that such spirits must almost always be demonic. The spirit realm is very real, and people have varying degrees of sensitivity to them.

[Sir Benjamin the Lion]

I don't believe in ghosts. I believe in demons. Besides if they were ghosts, I have Jesus.:D

[Mrs Gil-Galad Took]

I can "see" them. It is not something I am talking about. They don't scare me. These are the spirits of the ones who are gone. I have this "gift" for years now and it just happens. I was cleaning a school together with my mom and I was on the upper floor when I saw a man in suite coming upstairs. He nodded his head to me and I said: Good evening. My mom was below and she thought: To whom is Vanessa talking? I told her there was a man upstairs and she said it was impossible because she saw nobody entering the stairs and she was near the door. I immidiatly knew it happened again. It often does and it is annoying sometimes, because other people can't "see" them.

[Elendil]

I don't believe in ghosts. I believe in demons. Besides if they were ghosts, I have Jesus.:D

Exactly. :D Ghosts aren't real

[pink-cheetah]

timalionguy, your post (#133) reminds me of a movie I saw once on Animal Planet a while back called "Ghost Cat". I never knew quite what to make of "animal ghosts". I still don't...

[timbalionguy]

timalionguy, your post (#133) reminds me of a movie I saw once on Animal Planet a while back called "Ghost Cat". I never knew quite what to make of "animal ghosts". I still don't...

There is so much about God's creation we don't understand! God soes want us to learn about His creation (at least the physical part) because He knows that it will point back to Him.

[Solya]

That just was such a heartwarming post, Timbalionguy. :) I firmly agree with you in the sense of that the spirits of animals are around us... they're different from human spirits, and so it's easy to distinguish between the two. The bonding done between a human and an animal is very different from the bonding between human and human, but equally powerful in it's own remarkable way. Animals maintain a sense of purity throughout their entire life, a sense of being connected to God and God's creation, which can also be seen in approximately the first five years of a human's life. Animals keep on reconnecting us to God and so it's only natural that some of us feel their spirit around when they have passed to the "other world".

@ Mrs Gil-Galad Took: I know almost exactly what you mean! Spirits don't scare me either, but it does get quite annoying when you're not alone and they're trying to draw your attention in nearly every way possible. :rolleyes: I ignore them for as much as I possibly can, though. Usually I only respond to the ones that are familiar to me... they're the ones who have passed beyond this world a long, long time ago and I guess some of them actually look after me in a sense. It's a beautiful gift you have, though also a very hard one at times.

[pink-cheetah]

I'd rather have a little animal ghost visit me than a human ghost.

[Solya]

I agree with you on that one, Pink-Cheetah. :) I have always preferred visits from animal spirits to visits from human ones, because the animal ones make me feel infinitely more relaxed than the human ones do. The animal ones carry less pressure with them and the human spirits often pale in comparison to the beautiful energy of the animal ones. ;)

[Into the Wardrobe]

On the subject of ghosts and ouigi boards, as a pastor, I would have to agree with Parthian King, Unleavened, Gryphon, and Inkspot. I know that demons are very real. I was physically attacked by one as a small child when trying to go to sleep in bed and was left bleading. I won't relate the whole story here...sufficed to say it's a bit on the freaky side. I know the Lord is more powerful than those beings. They are not to be messed with though or taken lightly. I know God's Word to be true and believe what it says about the topic.

[timbalionguy]

On the subject of ghosts and ouigi boards, as a pastor, I would have to agree with Parthian King, Unleavened, Gryphon, and Inkspot. I know that demons are very real. I was physically attacked by one as a small child when trying to go to sleep in bed and was left bleading. I won't relate the whole story here...sufficed to say it's a bit on the freaky side. I know the Lord is more powerful than those beings. They are not to be messed with though or taken lightly. I know God's Word to be true and believe what it says about the topic.

I agree with you completely. There are some really dangerous spirits out there that can attack us, or that can be manipulated by witches, warlocks, etc. The key to defense against these is to pray and keep your relationship good with the Lord. 'Spiritual Housecleaning' is something that every Christian needs to do. I keep my home spiritually housecleaned, and covered in prayer. If I sense a spiritual attack (and they do happen once in a while, but never to the point I am dealing with an overt ghost) prayer gets rid of these really quick.

I remember hearing a story about a practicing Christian who was in high school. He was approached by another student who he knew dabbled in the black arts. They got into a conversation, and the person who was into the black arts pointed out that the Christian student was one fo the few students int he school on which his spells simply would not work. He likened the protection that existed around this believer to be like a shield.

Spiritual warfare is a really important part of what we as Christians need to be about. When I was just a new believer in the Lord almost 30 years ago, it was prophesied over me that I would be a fighter in a spiritual sense. Many years later, but still a long time ago, I seemed to sense the Lord had given me a spirit of a lion. Sometime later, I asked the Lord why He had given me the spirit of a lion. The Lord answered me with a question: 'What do lions do best?' I answered back 'Fight', trying to pick a character quality of lions that might be applicable to our walk with the Lord. The Lord's answer was 'You got it'. As time has gone by, it has become apparent that fighting against evil, both physical and spiritual has been an important part of my walk with the Lord.

[bruiser]

Hey everyone i was at church and we were discussing the matter of ghosts and "hauntings" so i was wondering if anyone here has an opinion w/ or w/o an experience that ghosts are or aren't real or a simple yes/no i don't think ghosts are real

i don't know about ghosts but i do beleive in hauntings and spirits... i am a nerd about stuff like this....lol

[Solya]

I remember hearing a story about a practicing Christian who was in high school. He was approached by another student who he knew dabbled in the black arts. They got into a conversation, and the person who was into the black arts pointed out that the Christian student was one fo the few students int he school on which his spells simply would not work. He likened the protection that existed around this believer to be like a shield.

That's a great story. :) I've heard that before, actually, from various pagan acquaintances of mine who were trying to mess about with things they shouldn't mess with. One of them had involved me in the whole thing afterwards, because she felt that I'd be able to keep them safe from the harm they had caused. But well, the moment I ask God to help me I know I am surrounded with pure blinding whitegold light... and though I was actually trying to drag these acquaintances out of trouble I got them deeper into it. They fell ill only minutes after I'd asked for help, simply because they'd done something that wasn't good and tried to pull me in with them.

I know one other man who is a spiritual fighter much like you. :) His bond with wolves goes beyond anything I've ever seen and he's often said he is a warrior/protector. The power of his energy is one awesome thing to behold, because his eyes sometimes simply seem to glow with the Love for/from God. I know my eyes get the same as his sometimes, but my power's a bit gentler and more of an undercurrent to his when we work together. I know I'm here as a healer/protector, so it is great to work alongside a warrior/protector and do the work God has told us to do here.

[Sir Benjamin the Lion]

lol. they forgot that the last course, Fighting Christians.:D

[chuam8919]

(Ephesians 6:12) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
(Ephesians 6:13) Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

However, I seem to be one of the few in this forum who believes there is no consciousness after death until the Resurrection.

[NarniaFanatic]

I don't think that ghosts are real...but demons are.
Yes, there is a major difference. I mean, my friends believe in ghosts and even try talking to them and crazy things like that. But I've never had an encounter with creepy, abnormal things like of that sort. I've been visited by angels, but not ghosts or demons.
One of my friends used to even WANT to go to hell to "rule it". I prayed for her anytime I could and it seems that she's actually gotten better and is nicer to me than she once was.

Anyway, GHOSTS?! It's crazy talk! When you die, I think it's logical that you automatically would go to the place you're destined for...Heaven or Hell.
There is no in-between state where your spirit is roaming the Earth.:mad:

But that's just my opinion...:(

[Solya]

Actually, many of the spirits that visit Earth have already passed over to their respective places on the other side. :) The percentage of spirits which could be called ghosts (or earthbound spirits, if you want the official term for them) is very small in comparison to the percentage of spirits that are already either in Heaven or Hell. That's why guiding this huge percentage over to the light, to name one of the New Agey terms for getting rid of spirits, almost never works properly. They're already in the light, so you can't guide them towards it anymore. And that's also the reason why prayer works much better... the ones from Heaven are reminded of their home, whereas the ones from Hell can't stand to hear a prayer which is spoken in complete confidence and faith.

Basically, I've only seen one ghost in my life but was visited by quite a lot of spirits. For me there's a difference between those two terms which is as clear as the difference between night and day. :) I've always heard from young people that they would really like to see spirits and so on, but I've always told them that they wouldn't ever wish for that again if they did see one. It requires a lot of strength and willpower/determination to be able to deal with them properly.

[Josh the Jester]

Well I kinda believe in the paranormal, but than I pretty much don't. Let's just say I watching "A Haunting" and "The Most Haunted". Yea other than that my house on the outside looks like it haunted, espcially around the fall.:D

[Mrs Gil-Galad Took]

I think when you are strong in your faith in God, nothing can get to you.
My only bad experience with so called "demons" was more than 16 years ago when I "saw" a demon ghost in a building. I don't go into details, but that is the only one I have experienced this.
When it comes to the paranormal....I consider it as a "gift" but I am never using it on purpose. Sometimes it just happened. Last week I told my mom my brother would have problems with his car and the next day (on friday) he told me he had car problems. So I better keep my mouth shut about it.
It ain't fun.

[Skandar's Girl]

Sometimes, i think of it as a "hidden" world. God will show it to you if you were meant to see it.

[pink-cheetah]

If there are animal spirits (supposedly), then are there insect/bug "spirits"? The invisible ant.

[timbalionguy]

If there are animal spirits (supposedly), then are there insect/bug "spirits"? The invisible ant. Can't speak for bugs, but I know people who have formed amazing bonds with snakes that could be described as having a spiritual component.

[Solya]

I've heard of the butterfly spirit, which is actually a pretty common animal to find in the spirit world. :) Some people say that if you see a butterfly after someone's passed away, this butterfly tells you that your loved one is doing okay and all. I certainly think that you can find insects in the spirit world... I've just never ever seen a spirit-fly, so I'm not sure as to what extent this goes. :rolleyes:

[Orion_nebula=great]

:eek: was scrolling through the list of threads and came across this one. I've read enough to know this is just plain spooky (pun unintended)! The URL I posted at the Evolution thread also talked about ghosts! Talk about strange coincidences. I'll post the section of the guy's testimony here. It's just strange. This guy went into an elite spirit worship group.

Christian Idolatry
Now one of the things that really amazed me, shocked me and made me sick at heart is when the high priest talked about Christian Idolatry. He said that Christian idolatry is truly the greatest deception that has ever been brought upon the human family. And he boasted, that fallen spirits are continually defiling Christian churches through the avenue of necromancy, by using a form of spirit worship that has swept into its net hundreds of millions in Christians without their even being aware of it.

Necromancy is defined as the practice of conjuring up the spirits of the dead, so that you can communicate with someone who is dead. Now, the High Priest explained that this actually a super deception that is brought about in only one way, through the false belief that man has an immortal soul that lives on after death. And he said that the practice of necromancy is really a form of idolatry, and that there are unnumbered millions of professing Christians who actually believe in and practice it, while they think that they are glorifying God. [The scriptures are very clear “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything…” Ecclesiastes 9:5 and “His breath goes forth, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish”. Psalm 146:4

Contrary to popular belief, just who is it then that they are they talking to when one seeks to communicate with the dead? The high priest explained that the friendly fallen spirits have always found over the centuries, great delight in their remarkable skills to impersonate departed loved ones, and especially persons of great renown.

There are three main divisions in Lucifer’s spirit domain, and then there are further divisions within those divisions. From what I can gather, in the broadest terms, you first have the “friendly” fallen spirits that seem to have much finesse and apparent refinement, and they’re not overly upset about what happened, i.e. their having been cast out of heaven. Then you have the warrior spirits who find their greatest pleasure in their efforts to bring misery and destruction into the lives of people. Finally, you have the oppressors and the oppressors are the most wicked of the fallen spirits in that they hold the greatest hatred for God, the Creator and all his creatures. The warrior and oppressive spirits take special delight in seeing the death of human beings, and greatly celebrate during times of war. In fact, I do recall the High Priest mentioning that the master was devoting a lot of his time and personal attention in trying to disrupt progress toward peace at the newly formed United Nations.

So the priest went on to explain that necromancy is in reality a belief, a religious belief. People falsely believe that the dead have entered into some kind of higher plane of existence then they had when they were alive, and thus the dead are in a position and have the capacity to help the living who are still here on earth. Then, he said, this is where things get really interesting. He said, according to the great master’s explanation, a person does not have to call upon the so- called spirits of the dead to receive help, to be involved in necromancy. All he has to do is to believe that there really is no death, because, he said, necromancy is the belief that fallen man has an immortal soul. [The Scriptures are clear that “the King of Kings and Lord of Lords…alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light”. 1 Tim. 6:15 & 16] So anyone who believes in inherent human immortality is involved in necromancy. It’s that simple, that’s how he explained it to us.

Now the priest also explained that when people believe in this business; they are actually opening themselves to be completely deceived by the fallen spirits, because it gives these spirits an opportunity to impersonate the dead, and for people to believe their deceptions. This practice actually brings to the great master the respect and the reverence due to his great name; and it makes all the other spirits exceedingly pleased for they are the ones who have successfully led people to believe that the dead are really living, and they rejoice together.

Indeed, there are today many millions of people who believe that they are actually talking to the dead saints, or the spirits of the dead, or a dead love one. Take for instance, Loretta Lynn, who speaking on national television, told how she was made highly successful in her singing career by a dear dead friend of hers, who was the same age that she was. Her friend’s death occurred when they were both eighteen years of age. And Loretta then told how she was trying to break into the highly competitive singing world but she said, “I had no success at all; until one night I was sitting in bed reading a book and who walks right through the wall but my departed friend, the spirit of my friend! And she said, ‘Loretta, I’m going to make you a very famous person in singing country music; and I will be with you all the time, trust me!’” After this experience she had a big concert scheduled at a time when she was coming down with a bad cold. She was certain that her singing voice was going to fail. So she immediately turned to her “spirit-friend” and felt that she was going to be helped. As Loretta got out on the stage and begin to sing, right where she really needed the vocal power there was no power in her voice at all! It was then that her “spirit-friend” tapped her on the shoulder and started to sing for her. She said, “Her voice went right through me, the power!” As I recall it was 1976, when this all took place.

[pink-cheetah]

^ wow... is that some sort of New Age satanic kind of cult or something?? It kind of reminds me of something out of "This Present Darkess" (Frank Peretti). That thing you posted is weird....

[Orion_nebula=great]

^ wow... is that some sort of New Age satanic kind of cult or something?? It kind of reminds me of something out of "This Present Darkess" (Frank Peretti). That thing you posted is weird....
http://english.sdaglobal.org/testimony/supnatr.htm
That's where I got it from. Apparently the guy was in an elite spirit worship circle. I don't know what to make of it. A lot about what he says the spirit worshippers reveal looks so identical to what SDAs have been saying. From the ending, it seems that that was why he joined the SDAs instead of other churches. In the words of the spirit worshippers' high priest, "Secondly, the reason why they can’t be brought under the great deception? Let me explain this to you. Now, my next statement is going to upset some of you, but what I’m telling you is the honest truth, it’s factual and it’s reality. The fact that the Adventists observe the Biblical Sabbath of creation and reverence the Creator on that day makes it impossible for the spirits to deceive them. They are given very special help and great spiritual insight. Under these conditions they are not ordinary people."

I don't know about you, but I've wondered what makes the SDAs so unspooked by stories of ghosts. From this guy's story, it seems that all the ghosts and spirits seen were all part of a grand deception. It's strange and...shocking.:eek:

[LadyArya]

i believe in ghosts ,well actually they are real ,well at least the holyghost is real.look in the bible

[Orion_nebula=great]

i believe in ghosts ,well actually they are real ,well at least the holyghost is real.look in the bibleWhat's your definition of ghost? I don't think you can say that because there's the Holy Ghost, that it means ghosts are real; that is, if ghosts are the spirits of the dead.

[Jack of Blades]

I had a pastor who stayed as a guest (while preaching locally) in a large historic home in the southern U.S. Between his room and the bathroom was a narrow little hallway. When at night he opened the door to go and brush his teeth, he saw a woman standing there in a gown and robe, with a very sad expression and a knife in her hand. She looked at him and turned, and walked through the door into the bathroom. He immediately opened the door and nothing was there. He went to the owner, who said that a woman had committed suicide in that room.

It is my belief (along with the previous posts) that a demon--the spirit of suicide if you will--adopted the spiritual expression of its last "victim." It is not the soul of the woman, but a demonic force. My pastor prayed, and the house was cleansed and no longer had that apparition. His prayer was a casting out of demons, not some wacky process so that a human soul could "complete" something or get some question answered or communicate with someone.

I see these shows where there's all this attempt to "talk" to ghosts as departed souls. The only thing that should be said is "Get out in the name of Jesus Christ." You don't converse with the devil--you take authority over him. Anyway, that's they way I read my Bible.

How freaky is that....
I used to live in an old hospital.
And I can recount three times I had encountered evil spirits.

One morning I woke up, and an old woman in regular clothes that old ladies wore, was staring at me from the foot of my bed. She scared me. I let out a yelp, and closed my eyes, looked back, she was gone.

[pink-cheetah]

How freaky is that....
I used to live in an old hospital.
And I can recount three times I had encountered evil spirits.

One morning I woke up, and an old woman in regular clothes that old ladies wore, was staring at me from the foot of my bed. She scared me. I let out a yelp, and closed my eyes, looked back, she was gone.
^ *shudders* creepy, Thomas.

[timbalionguy]

I know one other man who is a spiritual fighter much like you. :) His bond with wolves goes beyond anything I've ever seen and he's often said he is a warrior/protector. The power of his energy is one awesome thing to behold, because his eyes sometimes simply seem to glow with the Love for/from God. I know my eyes get the same as his sometimes, but my power's a bit gentler and more of an undercurrent to his when we work together. I know I'm here as a healer/protector, so it is great to work alongside a warrior/protector and do the work God has told us to do here.

Perhaps this explains my deep bonds with lions and some other big cats. And like you, I find a very pure love that flows fromt the spirits of animals (They don't have original sin). I do know that this isn't something I am supposed to rely on-- that's what the Lord is for-- but a touch from a departed lion (and lately liger) friend can really make my day or pick up my mood. It also tends to draw me closer to the Lord, as I realize the gift of discerning these spirits is of the Lord, and it's use must honor Him.

[Orion_nebula=great]

pink cheetah, so what do you think of this part especially?

So the priest went on to explain that necromancy is in reality a belief, a religious belief. People falsely believe that the dead have entered into some kind of higher plane of existence then they had when they were alive, and thus the dead are in a position and have the capacity to help the living who are still here on earth. Then, he said, this is where things get really interesting. He said, according to the great master’s explanation, a person does not have to call upon the so- called spirits of the dead to receive help, to be involved in necromancy. All he has to do is to believe that there really is no death, because, he said, necromancy is the belief that fallen man has an immortal soul. [The Scriptures are clear that “the King of Kings and Lord of Lords…alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light”. 1 Tim. 6:15 & 16] So anyone who believes in inherent human immortality is involved in necromancy. It’s that simple, that’s how he explained it to us.

Now the priest also explained that when people believe in this business; they are actually opening themselves to be completely deceived by the fallen spirits, because it gives these spirits an opportunity to impersonate the dead, and for people to believe their deceptions. This practice actually brings to the great master the respect and the reverence due to his great name; and it makes all the other spirits exceedingly pleased for they are the ones who have successfully led people to believe that the dead are really living, and they rejoice together.What do you make of it? Do you think it's a possibility that the whole Christian community has been lied to?

[SOS~]

I don't believe in ghost but I believe in demons.

[SpiritedWolf]

If I've said it once, I've said it a THOUSAND TIMES... Ghosts are real!!! They may not be scary ghosts, or happy ghosts... you may not be able to see them, you may not be able to hear or touch them... but you can feel them... they are there...

[SOS~]

How come I haven't seen one.And why are they still here, should'nt they be in the good place or hot place?

[SpiritedWolf]

You do see them, I'll bet! You just don't know that's what they are... most ghosts look like regular people... and they're not in heaven or hell because they arn't ready to move on. They are everything that hasn't been judged yet, they are everyone who isn't certian if they want to be in heaven, or if they don't believe in heaven.

Hope that answers your questions... if you have any more, I'll be happy to answer them.

[SOS~]

When I die and choose to be a ghost or go on?

[SpiritedWolf]

Only if you are COMPLETELY uncertian of if you believe in God or not... and if you don't, you stay on Earth as a ghost, or if you believe in another religion... then you chose between that god(s) and not. So if you are Athiest, you will most likely stay on Earth as a ghost for millions of years.

[SOS~]

Interesting...........

[SpiritedWolf]

EXACTLY!!!!:D :rolleyes: :D ;)

[SOS~]

And who told you this?Did you figure it out or something?

[SpiritedWolf]

I figured out parts of it, but most of it was told me by a ghost... I know it's hard to believe, but they tell me lots of things...

[Jack of Blades]

I figured out parts of it, but most of it was told me by a ghost... I know it's hard to believe, but they tell me lots of things...

Um...no offence....but you still sound like your clinically insane.

[SpiritedWolf]

I get that alot...:D

[Orion_nebula=great]

Errr... is it just me or are you guys ignoring the testimony of the guy I just quoted? He was part of an elite spirit worship group until God pulled him out of it right before complete initiation through blood sacrifice! This guy just might be on to something. Especially these Adventists. I've seen them and they're not fearful of any ghosts and none of them have ever been haunted by one after following Christ! As far as I know, just one missionary woman from these SDAs scattered an ancient haunted ground. The natives had seen people who got near that spot where her hut was built die very violent deaths. But the instant the woman came, there was no haunting! She never saw any ghost, nor did she do any exorcism; she was just there.

The Adventists say that most of the Christian community have been fooled by Satan into believing that humans have innate immortal souls. Even elite spirit worship groups say it has always been a deception. How can you not be stirred? It has stirred me, which is why I'm getting freaked out (another unintended pun to the thread's theme) that you guys aren't seeming to even blink twice at the guy's testimony! Isn't this kind of thing supposed to be big news?

[Solya]

Hmm, can't say I'm too overly fussed about the testimony... but maybe that is because I have simply gotten used to one too many things like this. :) I always look at things from my own perspective after reading such a testimony, but right now the feeling that I'm getting from it is that there simply is too much confusion.

Basically... what I feel... is that there's angels, demons and a whole bunch of other sorts of spirits that have never been human. And then you've got spirits that were human before they chose for either Light or Dark... some of them are still human and alive today, others have passed on to a place that can be compared to Heaven or Hell. And then there's also the spirits that haven't decided yet (they're frequently seen as "ghosts", which is probably due to the fact that they find it hard to release the physical plane of existence) and who are basically hanging between Light and Dark as an 'undecided factor'. But, one thing... an immortal soul is not something that's innate in humans. I have felt souls flood right back to God's being at the end of their lives here... apparently their task here was done... but I do feel that they're immortal in God, so to speak.

Elite spirit worship groups make me feel icky. They're so set in their minds, such vast believers in what they think is correct, that it is hard to get a word in edgeways. I think most of these people have never met an angel or demon in their lives, nor any other kind of spirit... and are just trying to push everything away that scares them. :) I personally don't feel like I'm being fooled by Satan in any way... I know the way in which his kind of spirits work and they're not getting me anywhere near them anymore...

Hm, one last word of caution to SpiritedWolf... don't believe everything a spirit tells you... also rely on your own common sense and your own feelings... I do believe a lot of the things you've said, though, because I feel the same sort of truth as I felt when I talked with a lot of spirits over the past couple of years. It's just... not all of them are good... so stay firmly in yourself and surround yourself with positivity and love. You're doing good. :)

[Orion_nebula=great]

Elite spirit worship groups make me feel icky. They're so set in their minds, such vast believers in what they think is correct, that it is hard to get a word in edgeways. I think most of these people have never met an angel or demon in their lives, nor any other kind of spirit... and are just trying to push everything away that scares them.Errm...then you'd better read the rest of his story. He had his fair share of actually seeing and feeling spirits. One even busted his doorknob through very well-hardened wall plaster. He saw spirits typing at typewriters for an attorney!

:) I personally don't feel like I'm being fooled by Satan in any way... I know the way in which his kind of spirits work and they're not getting me anywhere near them anymore... Which is why I'm so concerned. If what this guy says is true, you have been very well-deceived because you haven't felt or noticed it. Poison sneaked into food would be much more lethal than the assassin directly putting a bottle of poison for you to drink. If what this guy says is true, you have been put under a powerful delusion and that could be really bad. What if he had spoken what is really true? We have to go back to the Bible on this.

[Solya]

Which is why I'm so concerned. If what this guy says is true, you have been very well-deceived because you haven't felt or noticed it. Poison sneaked into food would be much more lethal than the assassin directly putting a bottle of poison for you to drink. If what this guy says is true, you have been put under a powerful delusion and that could be really bad. What if he had spoken what is really true? We have to go back to the Bible on this.

Mmmm, yes. I see where you're coming from. :) However, I have also had children come up to me... telling me that they've seen an angel... and I've had kids come up to me, telling me that they're too scared to go to sleep because there's a 'wicked man' in their room who keeps staring at them... and more stories like these have surfaced over the past few months with children I try to help out. So far, these children have always come up to me with these tales without even knowing if I'd believe them or not. It is not something I like to mention to children voluntarily.

Now, you might say that children have overactive imaginations. But I think it is a huge thing... to have a child of five years old be so consistent in his story of having seen a spirit that every detail fits into the story seamlessly. He didn't mention it for three months after the first time he said something about it to me, but when I asked him about it again he told me the exact same thing... details and all... nothing in his story had changed in a huge way that would possibly suggest it was all just a fantasy of his.

Where this leads me then... is to the following... why on Earth would a child's earliest memories of this life be of spirits? Why would these children see things like this at such a young age and be able to tell the difference between right and wrong straight away? Sure, it could be a delusion... but I don't think it is... most of these things are genuine... these children sometimes mention stuff that's in the Bible, almost literally quoted, while most of them are at the age where they just begin to be able to read. I was a lot like these children when I was younger, so I recognise some things from their experiences and can apply them to some of my own memories. I don't think that everything comes from Satan in that respect. Some things did, but most of these things didn't.

[Ephinie]

This post is really off topic as far as the current trend of this discussion seems to be going, but it's interesting anyways; so I thought I would share it.

I had this very long, very detailed, very involved dream last night. I won't go into the whole thing, but a portion of it had two ghosts in it. At one point in the dream, I came to a place where I was inside looking out a window at the grounds of a huge estate. It was winter, so there was snow and ice on the ground and the vegetation everywhere. I had been trying desperately to get outside for quite a while, but most of the windows in the mansion were sealed shut. I had finally found a window that would open, so I was sitting there on the window seat carefully prying the latches loose. They were stiff from disuse, so I had to be careful... but I also did not have a lot of time, so I had to hurry as well. I could feel the chill against the glass from the temperature outside. I turned my attention to working at the latches for a moment, and I got the window to open a few inches. Then I looked out again and noticed that the entire landscape had changed. It had the same physical features, but instead of snow and ice, it was covered in lava and fire. I could see the grass on the lawn, but there were hot coals burning beneath it and in between the blades. The scent of sulfur wafted through the open slot. Then I noticed a man covered in chains dragging his feet across the hot ground. Sweat was pouring off of him, and he was moaning loudly and begging for someone to let him inside. His pleading grew more and more desperate with each step he took through volcanic wasteland, and someone nearby on the inside informed that the man was a ghost that was often seen wandering about the grounds. I asked why the grounds had changed so suddenly from winter to basically hell, and the person I was speaking with had no idea what I was talking about. To them it still looked like winter. I looked out again, and now the landscape had changed to spring. The shrubbery was blooming, the trees were budding, the grass was green, and that clean spring air wafted through the crack in the window. Then I noticed a lady (probably around 40-45 years old, but stunningly beautiful) dancing around in the yard not too far from the window. She caught my eye and winked at me. Then the whole scene sort of shifted so that I could see both realities at once - the sulfurous hell and the spring paradise - existing in the same place at the same time. To the man, only the hell was perceivable; and the lady saw only the paradise. The realization suddenly struck me that they were both ghosts, but the reality that each was encountering in death was diametrically opposite. The lady was a Christian, but the man was not. So they were each in heaven and hell respectively, but both places were occupying the same physical space. They were just on different planes or dimensions... or something like that. Anyways, I got the window open enough for me to slip through finally, and when I landed on the ground, it was winter just as it should have been.

Now, I don't actually believe that heaven and hell occupy the same physical space in different dimensions... nor do I believe that either place is in the same space as our current phyiscal world. But it was something that really got me thinking... two ghosts experiencing vastly different things in death yet still being visible to people who are alive and being somewhat aware of them. Leave it to my twisted mind to come up with that sort of imagery.

[Solya]

That's one beautiful dream, Ephinie. :) While Heaven and Hell certainly do not occupy the same physical space in different dimensions, the thing you've seen in the dream is exactly the way in which I've always experienced the presence of spirits. They all are in their own place, experiencing different things after death, but yet they are also slightly aware of the things that happen in life. I've had some of them respond with total surprise when they discovered that I noticed they were there, but there were others that responded to me in the same sort of way as the lady in your dream did.

What also strikes me is the vivid picture of the man in your dream. :) While I cannot possibly call such a thing "beautiful"... it strikes me as an image and the general way in which this man pleaded reminds me greatly of some of the more "lost" spirits.

[Ephinie]

What also strikes me is the vivid picture of the man in your dream. :) While I cannot possibly call such a thing "beautiful"... it strikes me as an image and the general way in which this man pleaded reminds me greatly of some of the more "lost" spirits.He was pretty tormented, that's for sure. I actually felt his agony, and it was more intense than anything I have ever experienced in real life. There was one point much later on in the dream that was very creepy because I met up with the sister of the lady, who was still alive. She was really old... ancient, in fact; and she mistook me for her sister at first sight. She was a little senile, it turned out. That part with her sister wasn't important to the overall story of the dream, though.

[Clara Pendragon the Just]

Oh Great topic! (Runs to my room and get my more than a dozen horror books)

PARANORMAL 101
The following are the transcripts of an interview with three gifted people in the paranormal realm.

TPGS: What does Paranormal study include?
SN: It will take us forever to discuss all that are under paranormal study. It is from telekenesis to unexplained UFOs.
RA: It involves everything about illogical.

There's the ESP or the Extra Sensory Perception-the sixth sense or the third eye. It is the main category in parapsychology. The ESP is defined as the perception that occurs without the use of any known perception.

[Copperfox]

Without claiming to explain away all paranormal phenomena in one paragraph, I can tell you that there have been many cases in which a person _imagined_ that he or she had psychic powers...but what was really happening was that a demon, a fallen angel spitefully rebelling against God, was faking the mystic experiences in order to confuse the human about spiritual realities. (Note the "psychic" slave girl whom St. Paul exorcised in Acts 16.) Anyone who reads my serial "Southward the Tigers" will see, in the character of Hookpaw, my metaphorical illustration of how this could happen.

[Solya]

I heard that they're now researching a particular form of ESP at a University here in the Netherlands. :) I received a mail about it from them because I had participated in their online survey about ESP and had apparently scored high enough for me to fit into the group of people they wanted to research. Unfortunately, I had no way of making it to this University in time for the research... I would have liked to participate in it, just to get the whole thing about ESP out of the "semi-scientific" research area. There's still a lot of things we don't know about the human brain and maybe this whole thing about ESP is connected to that.

For me, my "gift" in that area has already been partially explained by the psychological research about highly sensitive persons. I can feel emotions of other people and am more sensitive to changes in my surroundings... I'm especially highly sensitive to sound and touch, but I also notice details more quickly than a "normal" person would. This sensitivity could possibly also be present in the ESP-area, which would explain some of the experiences I've had into more detail.

[PetersGal14]

I belive that Ghosts are fake. Part of the Devils work. No such things as ghost.

[Copperfox]

I do believe that God has allowed some departed souls to be seen by mortals, under "controlled conditions"--as when the Apostles saw Moses talking with Jesus--and when my departed first wife was allowed to speak to me in a dream. But any allegation of deceased souls taking up residence in houses, or being summoned at will by spiritists, is either a mistake or a deception.

[Solya]

But any allegation of deceased souls taking up residence in houses, or being summoned at will by spiritists, is either a mistake or a deception.

Very true! :) Especially the summoning at will is subject of much ridicule over here, because it is very much a "human" frame of mind to think that one could possibly exercise a large amount of control over deceased souls. The one thing I always ask these self-proclaimed spiritists is why they go looking for spirits... as someone who experiences the presence of spirits sometimes, I would never go and seek this sort of thing out consciously... it takes so much energy out of me and my experiences with them have overall been more negative than positive... so I can't see why people would consciously seek out that kind of thing. I'd give almost anything to live without this, but apparently God's designed a different plan for me.

[-Daughter of Eve-]

I believe in ghosts.

[Eärendil]

I believe in ghosts.

You telling the truth?? Simply, I don't believe in ghosts, except the Holy Ghost, and that's as far as it goes, besides Moses. Elijah wouldn't count, he never really died, just got taken up by a chariot.

[-Daughter of Eve-]

You telling the truth?? Simply, I don't believe in ghosts, except the Holy Ghost, and that's as far as it goes, besides Moses. Elijah wouldn't count, he never really died, just got taken up by a chariot.

When I think about it,I don't really know what to believe.

[Eärendil]

Oh! Sry if I offended you, m'lady!

[-Daughter of Eve-]

Oh! Sry if I offended you, m'lady!

No,don't worry,I'm not offended.I just thought about it again and realised that saying I believe in ghosts to 100% wouldn't be true.

[Tsukiko]

Yeah; thats the only Ghost I believe in. The Holy Ghost in the holy Trinity.

[inkspot]

I don't think there is any such thing as ghosts. The Bible indicates all people have souls, but they don't come back to earth and pal around with anyone, that I am aware of.

In one Bible story, King Saul tried to make a spirit medium call up the ghost of the priest Samuel, and he got in big trouble for that, God did not like that at all. :(