Is baptism essential for salvation?

[Señor Puntos]

Is being baptised totally necessary for having a relationship with God or is it just something you can do to show your love to him? I just wanted to know is all incase I ever become christian. :D

[QA48]

Is being baptised totally necessary for having a relationship with God or is it just something you can do to show your love to him? I just wanted to know is all incase I ever become christian. :D

Well it is required. when you go into the water it symbolizes how you're about to leave you past life, your sins etc.. in there and as you come out it means New life. And plus it doesn't hurt doing it. its really a nice ceremony.

[Parthian King]

Jimmy, to tell you the truth this issue has been a hot point of debate between Christians themselves. Some groups believe in something called "baptismal regeneratin," meaning you literally have to get wet--and in a certain way (immersion)--or you cannot be saved. But I have to say that that perspective is a minority position.

The tricky thing to understand is the difference between the way you ask the question (the thread's title) and the way it is answered (as Queen Aravis48 has). To answer you simply from the majority view: If you have believed on Christ and repented of sin, and willfully submitted to His lordship (a powerfully sweet process, btw), and the only thing you have not done is be baptized, then the answer is NO--facing death "dry" will not keep you out of His presence. The commonly quoted example on this is the criminal on the cross next to Jesus to whom Jesus said "This day you'll be with me in Paradise"--no time for baptism, but God saw his heart.

The thing that must be said immediately, though, is that baptism is a sign of repentance. If "you have believed on Christ and repented of sin, and willfully submitted to His lordship" (quoting my own words from above) you will be baptized--and gladly. In other words, if you become a Christian but willfully and deliberately refuse baptism over and over, even after having its importance fully explained to you, one would have to question whether or not you had really converted. It is a sign of washing and rebirth, and has to do with professing outwardly a faith you have inside. You may ask "why?" and I could name a bunch of reasons--the best probably being that talk is cheap and something that is done to your whole being in front of others establishes a sort of "landmark" for you to look back to. The best reason, though, is that God said so, and being a Christian means living under that rule. It is more liberating and refreshing than you can know if you have never done it.

I have seen many, many people baptized, and it carries a great deal more power than mere "show." Ceremony has gotten a bit of a bad rap these days, and the ceremony of baptism is meant to glorify Christ and you at the same time, even as it shows that you have humbled yourself.

I'll pray for you, Jimmy. Aslan is on the move!

[Christine Marie]

Well, I'm a Christian and I've never been baptized; I also don't feel a need to get baptized.
You don't need to get dipped in pseudo-Holy water (it's just water!) to have a relationship with God.

[Aravis Kenobi]

Well, I'm a Christian and I've never been baptized; I also don't feel a need to get baptized.
You don't need to get dipped in pseudo-Holy water (it's just water!) to have a relationship with God.
True, you don't have to be baptized to be a Christian. One of the main reasons you get baptized is to show the body of believers, AND the world that Jesus has washed you clean with His blood. Water only cleans the outside; only Jesus can cleanse the inside.

[QA48]

Well, I'm a Christian and I've never been baptized; I also don't feel a need to get baptized.
You don't need to get dipped in pseudo-Holy water (it's just water!) to have a relationship with God.

yeah its just water, but its all about what it means. If Jesus Did it, He did it for a reason. And so did the apostles after him. Paul did it right after he converted.......

P.S. PK awsome reply

[Señor Puntos]

Thanks to whoever changed the name, and for your advice. if I ever became christian I'd be baptised just for the experience (and for God of course :o )

[QA48]

Thanks to whoever changed the name, and for your advice. if I ever became christian I'd be baptised just for the experience (and for God of course :o )

God Bless you :)

You'll be in my prayers :)

Love,

-A fellow Narnian

[Gibby]

The thief on the cross next to Jesus was not baptized and he was saved. Also, Jesus said, "It is finished" when He died on the cross (John 19:30). So He meant it is finished, not, "you have to do this to be saved" (which includes baptism to me).

[QA48]

The thief on the cross next to Jesus was not baptized and he was saved. Also, Jesus said, "It is finished" when He died on the cross (John 19:30). So He meant it is finished, not, "you have to do this to be saved" (which includes baptism to me).

obviously he had no time. But all the apostles did so. and The same Goes for Paul. It is not required to be saved but it is expected as a proclamatio of your faith. That's all. and it doesn't hurt to do it. and it is an experience that i believe helps you be closer to God. You go in as your old self,Come out new. :cool: its simple as that.

The thief on the cross next to Jesus was not baptized and he was saved. Also, Jesus said, "It is finished" when He died on the cross (John 19:30)

When he said that he was clearly talking about the prophecy. Not baptism.

[Parthian King]

I think a key to this whole thing is adopting the proper perspective. When we approach God (or rather, are drawn to Him), it's best to leave the "will this be on the test?" attitude at home. Many want to know what they can get away with, and/or how little they have to do and still be considered a Christian. Our attitude should be, "Hey, how close can I get to Him? How over the top can I be? What can I do to best please Him who died for me?" It seems odd to me that someone should call themselves a Christian and pray the most basic of Christian prayers (i.e., Our Father which art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done...), seeking that which is the unknown will of God, yet not do that which is the known will of God.

Jimmy, by his own profession not a Christian, has an excellent attitude: For the experience, and for God. Sounds pretty right on the money to me. Jimmy, you aren't far from the Kingdom. Why not just come on over? :)

Baptism is not required for salvation. But to refuse it is disobedience, and disobedience always carries a price--a price no one can afford. If that seems harsh, take it up with the King. But be careful--word is He's not a tame Lion...

[QA48]

Again Pk you are awsome!!! :)

[Parthian King]

Well, that's what I love about the Bible. You just say what it says, and it makes you look like you're smart! ;)

[QA48]

Well, that's what I love about the Bible. You just say what it says, and it makes you look like you're smart! ;)

i know. i hate it when people only believe in what's convinient for them. or twist it to justify certain behaviors :(

[EveningStar]

Baptism is a way of telling God and Christ Jesus you love them. There are two things you'll realize as you get older...one is that you'll never lay on your deathbed wishing you'd spent more time in the office...and the second is that you can never really tell the people you love how you feel TOO MUCH, but it's so easy to do it NOT ENOUGH.

If the thoughts of being baptized make you feel uncomfortable, silly, or even resentful, then DO IT and thereby overcome that obstacle in your life.

Not only was I baptized...and out of doors in NOVEMBER in the MOUNTAINS (think of that and SHIVVER!!!) but I have also have the privilege of performing the sacrament myself. And when it is done with the right expectations and for the right reasons, it is a beautiful thing.

[Aslan's Son]

It's not required to be a Christian-since I'm a Baptist, I think, in my denomination, that baptism's only for those old enough to understand its meaning or something like that, and that we immerse the entire body in water, not just part of it. I do know that there are churches out there that require a baby to be baptised, else that baby will go to hell or something like that (repeating myself >_<) in their view (can't remember which ones though). I'm not baptised, and I'm still a Christian. So no, I don't think it's needed, but it's a wonderful symbol of your sins being washed away and an awesome show of salvation. :)

(Can you believe I'm actually descended from one of the founding members of the Baptist denomination in America? Cool, isn't it? ^_^)

[Parthian King]

Get wet Ged!

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Being Catholic, I've been trying to stay out of this discussion, but let me make this point: the issue is death. From God's point of view, we're so radically in need of reworking that we have to die and be reborn in order to gain this new life He has for us. Baptism, and the desire behind it, is that death. There was an extensive discussion of this over in the "Does Jesus Care?" thread, starting with post #45 (http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showpost.php?p=60716&postcount=45).

For clarification of the other posters in this thread: not only did the Church have to grapple with the Scriptural account of the thief on the cross, but they also had to deal with the fact that there were instances of Roman guards, pagans to the core, who were assigned to guard Christians being held before being thrown to the lions. When the gates were opened, some of these guards cast down their spears and walked in with the prisoners. Based on the faith and love they experienced during their brief sentry duty, they chose to die with the Christians than live as pagans.

Thus, the Church recognized three forms of baptism: the baptism of water, the baptism of blood (which the guards experienced) and the baptism of desire (thief on the cross.) In light of Scripture and the witness of the early Church, it's hard to deprecate the virtue of the sacrament of Baptism. Look in the Scriptures: when people convert to Christ, what's the first thing the Apostles did? Are we wiser than they? Christine Marie (and anyone else), if you haven't been baptized, ask yourself - why not? If there's a good God has for you, why not embrace it?

Jimmy, in case you hadn't noticed, your Beast post in the Professor's Notebook inspired me to write an answer: Beast II.

[Mar]

Is being baptised totally necessary for having a relationship with God or is it just something you can do to show your love to him? I just wanted to know is all incase I ever become christian. :D
heyyy you were the pirate righttt???

[Mar]

Being Catholic, I've been trying to stay out of this discussion, but let me make this point: the issue is death. From God's point of view, we're so radically in need of reworking that we have to die and be reborn in order to gain this new life He has for us. Baptism, and the desire behind it, is that death. There was an extensive discussion of this over in the "Does Jesus Care?" thread, starting with post #45 (http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showpost.php?p=60716&postcount=45).

For clarification of the other posters in this thread: not only did the Church have to grapple with the Scriptural account of the thief on the cross, but they also had to deal with the fact that there were instances of Roman guards, pagans to the core, who were assigned to guard Christians being held before being thrown to the lions. When the gates were opened, some of these guards cast down their spears and walked in with the prisoners. Based on the faith and love they experienced during their brief sentry duty, they chose to die with the Christians than live as pagans.

Thuse, the Church recognized three forms of baptism: the baptism of water, the baptism of blood (which the guards experienced) and the baptism of desire (thief on the cross.) In light of Scripture and the witness of the early Church, it's hard to deprecate the virtue of the sacrament of Baptism. Look in the Scriptures: when people convert to Christ, what's the first thing the Apostles did? Are we wiser than they? Christine Marie (and anyone else), if you haven't been baptized, ask yourself - why not? If there's a good God has for you, why not embrace it?

Jimmy, in case you hadn't noticed, your Beast bost in the Professor's Notebook inspired me to write an answer: Beast II.
heyy your cool! lol catholics rock! hehe

umm do you knwo the magazine faith and family??

[Christine Marie]

Christine Marie (and anyone else), if you haven't been baptized, ask yourself - why not? If there's a good God has for you, why not embrace it?

I suppose I just don't see the need in being close to God through any material source such as baptisms and crucifixes. These things seem to have a greater impact on ones mental health more then their soul.
A connection with God should transcend anything on this earth, but if you feel baptism and/or crucifixes work for you, all the best :)

[Mar]

I suppose I just don't see the need in being close to God through any material source such as baptisms and crucifixes. These things seem to have a greater impact on ones mental health more then their soul.
A connection with God should transcend anything on this earth, but if you feel baptism and/or crucifixes work for you, all the best :)
humm wouldnt' it help more though? just my opinion......looking at the cross, i mean it should make you love God more, and it should bring you closer to him..just seeing how much he suffered for you.....thats just what i think. :)

[Gibby]

obviously he had no time. But all the apostles did so. and The same Goes for Paul. It is not required to be saved but it is expected as a proclamatio of your faith. That's all. and it doesn't hurt to do it. and it is an experience that i believe helps you be closer to God. You go in as your old self,Come out new. :cool: its simple as that.



I was baptized by immersion 3 years after I gave my life to the Lord. We attended a "dead"church for 3 years that never taught about being born again, let alone baptism. We finally left and joined an active A/G church and I finally was baptized as a new believer. You're right, it was a powerful experience.




When he said that he was clearly talking about the prophecy. Not baptism.

I meant that He finished the work on the cross so their is nothing required for us to be in fellowship with God now except through faith in Christ and that includes baptism. Baptism is an expression of our love for God not a requirement for salvation (at least that's what I believe the Word of God teaches).http://www.narniafans.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

[truelovewaits]

baptism is not needed in order to become a Christian, it is just being obedient and following God's command! like when Jesus was baptized in the Jordan River by John the Baptist!!!!!!!!!!!

[QA48]

I meant that He finished the work on the cross so their is nothing required for us to be in fellowship with God now except through faith in Christ and that includes baptism. Baptism is an expression of our love for God not a requirement for salvation (at least that's what I believe the Word of God teaches).http://www.narniafans.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

I'm with you 100% the reason why i said that was because the person who wrote what i was replying to used that verse to justify the fact that not getting baptised was not important. ;)

[EveningStar]

I suppose I just don't see the need in being close to God through any material source such as baptisms and crucifixes. These things seem to have a greater impact on ones mental health more then their soul.There is a place for physical things. Sacraments are those happy moments in the Christian faith when an inward invisible sign (your faith) is paired with an outward visible sign (your actions) so that you are publically admitting your willingness to be part of the Church, to take this person to be your lawfully wedded snooky-ookums, or to celebrate eucharist.

Outward visible signs ARE important for three reasons. First, in countries where Christianity is persecuted, it is an act of raw courage. You are standing before Nero to own Jesus as Lord. Second it is an act that makes your faith more than some thought inside your head or feeling inside your heart. It is an acknowledgment that Jesus is lord of creation as well as your mind. Third it represents your desire to follow the example of your Lord. Jesus took communion. Jesus was baptized. In doing these things you feel closer to Him and the life he led. It's not magic, it's no more magic than hugging someone you love. If your child knows you love them, is a hug really necessary? Well, YES! Without taking it apart theologically, if you normally love someone you normally want to hold them. And the desire to AVOID it would be suspect under any circumstances. Just my two cents.

[Parthian King]

Dead on, Chakal. We have made Christianity very mystical, when many elements of it are earthy and palpable.

At the end of the day, to argue the point of baptism (on whatever grounds) is pointless, because we aren't arguing how to do it (or anything else, for that matter), but that you should do it. Once we open that discussion, the side in favor of baptism has, like, Jesus to back it up:

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in a the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”--Matthew 28:18

Who will really dare to put themselves above this? I don't feel overly compelled to argue the point when Jesus commanded it, and commanded that we teach it. You can say, "It doesn't make sense, I don't see the point, it's only ceremonial, love is within, it's all about the relationship and not outward physical things," or whatever else, but when you lie down and when you get up, that commandment of Jesus will be staring you in the face. It is not something to be discussed in the sense of negotiating (because Jesus does not negotiate), only discussed in the sense of understanding. And a lot of understanding follows obedience.

Jesus gave this command--not counsel or suggestion--in order that it be obeyed. Some things you may never understand in this life. What a shame it would be, though, to think that you had to understand something to do it (and therefore didn't), only to find out much later all you could have had if you had simply trusted and followed the simplest of commands based on the knowledge that, sight unseen, Jesus knew what was good for you better than you did.

[Suzan Pevensie]

Is being baptised totally necessary for having a relationship with God or is it just something you can do to show your love to him? I just wanted to know is all incase I ever become christian. :D


I think it's not BECAUSE you are batized that you are saved but because you belive in christ and accept his sacrifice. The baptism is a way for show your love to God in dissiple(I don't know the word in english...). In the time of Jesus, the people who belive in God were batised fast because persecution, but now, in evangelist-batist church, we wait a mature age fot batised for make sur that the person understood the sens of the sacrifice of Jesus and that is his choice.

[TimmyofOz]

When I was a Baptist, I had to be baptisted If I wanted to be a member of the Baptist church I attended. But I didn't need to be baptized to be a christian or saved. Being a member of a Baptist church means your are able to act in the body to decide about the governing of the church, sence Baptist are congregational governed. So baptism is by beleavers. You must be of age. I now attend Calvery Chapel. It also beleave in beleaver baptism but there isn't an official memebership. So a requirement for baptism is not needed for any reason except obedience to scripture. :D

[PrinceOfTheWest]

baptism is not needed for any reason except obedience to scripture. :DAh - a minor reason... :)

[Christine Marie]

humm wouldnt' it help more though? just my opinion......looking at the cross, i mean it should make you love God more, and it should bring you closer to him..just seeing how much he suffered for you.....thats just what i think. :)
I'm sure it does help a lot of people but *I* just don't feel that I need it : )
If I were to participate in such things it would almost be ignorant since I don't hold it at such a profound height as many others, and therefore should be reserved for those who do, out of respect

[Mar]

I'm sure it does help a lot of people but *I* just don't feel that I need it : )
If I were to participate in such things it would almost be ignorant since I don't hold it at such a profound height as many others, and therefore should be reserved for those who do, out of respect
well..if thats your thing..do it! lol

[Parthian King]

Respectfully (to Mar), that approach is precisely the problem, and precisely what Christianity is not about. Serving Christ is about abandoning my way and my thing, and exchanging it for His way and for doing His thing.

Christine Marie, Jesus said that His yoke is easy, and His burden is light (Matthew 11:30). But until you are willing to bow under even that liberating yoke, you remain at best a distant associate of the Lord Jesus, believing in Him at a distance and at you own convenience. You are not His disciple if you cannot discern the difference between a simple and direct command and an issue of personal preference (such as whether or not you'll wear a hat in cold weather). Correspondingly, the blessing and freedom you receive will be from a distance--not because Jesus does not want you to have more, but because you won't get any closer to take it from Him.

The disciples of the Lord are those who know Him and walk with Him, and allow Him to determine how they feel about things and what is best for them. This sounds limiting, but as C.S. Lewis himself points out, those who are so disciplined are more free and more themselves than those who insist on keeping the reins themselves.

A major part of our difficulty is that our expression of faith has become so individualized in an atmosphere of religious consumerism that we really think these things are up to us. They are not. The fact is, based on the Word of God, it doesn't matter whether you feel you need baptism. If you confess Christ as Lord, you are commanded to do it--whether you "get" anything out of the experience or not. The highest show of respect for a command of our Lord will always be obedience and obedience alone--not abstention based on our ignorance.

[Christine Marie]

There is a place for physical things. Sacraments are those happy moments in the Christian faith when an inward invisible sign (your faith) is paired with an outward visible sign (your actions) so that you are publically admitting your willingness to be part of the Church, to take this person to be your lawfully wedded snooky-ookums, or to celebrate eucharist.

Outward visible signs ARE important for three reasons. First, in countries where Christianity is persecuted, it is an act of raw courage. You are standing before Nero to own Jesus as Lord. Second it is an act that makes your faith more than some thought inside your head or feeling inside your heart. It is an acknowledgment that Jesus is lord of creation as well as your mind. Third it represents your desire to follow the example of your Lord.
I'm not denying that people should be exterior about their faith as well as interior, but I don't believe it *has* to be done through material symbols and other church sacraments.
You can be exterior about your faith through the words you speak and the way you carry yourself; when people see this they'll be more open to Christianity.
Just yesterday, I was commenting on a, mainly, non-Christian discussion site. The topic was about a certain ‘Christian’ republican journalist who believes that it is our right, ordained by God, to destroy the planet for our own benefit. I made a comment disagreeing with her, stating (not word for word) that I'm a Christian and that God gave us stewardship of the planet to take care of and enjoy, not to use for selfish purposes. I received more then a dozen replies, since then, from people who called themselves atheists, and even pagans, who have opened their hearts to Christianity, and maybe, one day, will come to God.

Places where Christianity is persecuted to the point of death or/and imprisonment are going to be persecuted, with or without the church symbols of Christ, since as Christians, we have to deny and say things that will contradict with others beliefs; so all Christians will be exposed, with the symbols or without :(
Jesus took communion. Jesus was baptized. In doing these things you feel closer to Him and the life he led. It's not magic, it's no more magic than hugging someone you love. If your child knows you love them, is a hug really necessary? Well, YES! Without taking it apart theologically, if you normally love someone you normally want to hold them. And the desire to AVOID it would be suspect under any circumstances. Just my two cents.
Jesus was/is a Jew; he was simply following the traditions of the Jewish faith, which was called Mikvah.
Because of Him I don't feel I have to follow old Judean customs, if I did I wouldn't be eating shellfish either :o

Btw, my intention is not to offend those who hold value in baptisms and religious sacraments, rather to point out that they are not a requirement and not always beneficial to all Christians

[Christine Marie]

Respectfully (to Mar), that approach is precisely the problem, and precisely what Christianity is not about. Serving Christ is about abandoning my way and my thing, and exchanging it for His way and for doing His thing.

Christine Marie, Jesus said that His yoke is easy, and His burden is light (Matthew 11:30). But until you are willing to bow under even that liberating yoke, you remain at best a distant associate of the Lord Jesus, believing in Him at a distance and at you own convenience. You are not His disciple if you cannot discern the difference between a simple and direct command and an issue of personal preference (such as whether or not you'll wear a hat in cold weather). Correspondingly, the blessing and freedom you receive will be from a distance--not because Jesus does not want you to have more, but because you won't get any closer to take it from Him.
This is exactly the ideology that made me an agnostic, leaning towards atheism, for most of my life. :rolleyes:
The disciples of the Lord are those who know Him and walk with Him, and allow Him to determine how they feel about things and what is best for them. This sounds limiting, but as C.S. Lewis himself points out, those who are so disciplined are more free and more themselves than those who insist on keeping the reins themselves.
Why do you think that because I chose not to be dipped in "Holy" water that I'm relinquishing Him from me?
I don't embrace or condone an un-Christ like lifestyle or deny His words, unless you strongly believe that getting dipped in "Holy" water is part of His desire for us
If it is option two then I don't think he can discuss this any further since the debate of Gods will has been debated for centuries and we have gotten no where, so I doubt anything I say will end it :o
A major part of our difficulty is that our expression of faith has become so individualized in an atmosphere of religious consumerism that we really think these things are up to us. They are not. The fact is, based on the Word of God, it doesn't matter whether you feel you need baptism. If you confess Christ as Lord, you are commanded to do it--whether you "get" anything out of the experience or not. The highest show of respect for a command of our Lord will always be obedience and obedience alone--not abstention based on our ignorance.
Okay, if God changes my heart on the importance of baptism I'll do it, but so far he has not

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Btw, my intention is not to offend those who hold value in baptisms and religious sacraments, rather to point out that they are not a requirement and not always beneficial to all ChristiansMy dear sister, you need to be sure you qualify such statements with phrases like "in my interpretation", because such statements set you at odds with what Jesus said, the apostles taught, and great scholars such as Augustine and Aquinas held. Given a choice between your opinions and theirs, and what I can read for myself in Scripture, I'm afraid I have to come down with Parthian King on this issue.

[Parthian King]

Christine Marie, I rejoice that you left a life of darkness for the light. Yet the fact that in your former rebellion you chafed against direct commands and the Lordship of Christ does not change the truth. The "ideology" you signal is the Word of God, and what the Christian faith is about. I cannot know what your particulars were and are, but just as often I hear from a confused generation that is desperate for someone and something to believe in--something that speaks with conviction. I will share the truth gently and respectfully, but if I preach a Cross without offense it ceases to be the Cross--and thereby loses its power to save.

Once again (and I write this in a forum, knowing more will read than the named addressee), my aim is neither to offend nor to avoid offense. We are not discussing debatable points of the faith here. There is not a single Christian faith tradition that holds the position that you suggest when it comes to baptism. There is no equating baptism with other liturgical ceremonies that are absent in many traditions, such as holy water, or genuflecting, or vestments for the clergy, and any number of other items. When you place baptism in water in the same category as crucifixes, you make a statement that misleads, though I would never accuse you of doing that intentionally: There is no command anywhere to carry a crucifix; the command to be baptized upon conversion is unambiguous and ubiquitous in the New Testament. You say it is not a requirement, though I can show you passage after passage that flatly contradicts that statement. It is not a requirement for salvation--it is a requirement if one wants to consider themselves a disciple of the Lord.

Similarly, when you mention living, vibrant aspects of your own Christian life, then contrast them with liturgies that are meaningless to you, you make an implication and set up a false choice: Either one will have a real, living, actualized faith that is based on spiritual realities that transcend superficial ceremony, or one will submerge themselves in formal Christianized religion and have no impact in the world. Again, I could not be more delighted with you witness. I do a fair bit of that myself. But I, having been raised Catholic and having been disillusioned with much ceremony (though later I came to recognize much of the "death" I perceived had little to do with liturgy itself), embraced a non-liturgical tradition. I don't carry a crucifix, or dip my hand in holy water, or genuflect, or carry a rosary--just for starters (neither will I demean those who do). You make much of the term "holy water," and your use of quotes indicates a level of scorn that shows you have some strong history in that area that gave birth to and sustains that scorn. Let me just say, the only thing that makes the waters of baptism holy is the fact that you step into them out of obedience to His command.

Baptism (with communion) is different from all other ceremonies or liturgies. Jesus commanded it. That's why I am not bending not an inch on this one. The choice is not between baptism or vibrant spiritual reality, but rather baptism as obedience as a critically important element in living a spiritual reality or plain disobedience. Previously, you noted something to the effect of, "Boy, this baptism thing sure has helped a lot of people!" Well, yeah it has--but not in the same way a new Chuck Swindoll book does (i.e., something that can be taken or left). Those testifying to the power of baptism refer to something deeper than just a neat expereince or something that edifies. In a world of separation from our Lord, in which "we see through the glass darkly," it is beyond edifying to know a command He has given, obey it, and hear Him whisper in the soul, "Well done, good and faithful servant." For that, there is no substitute.

[Christine Marie]

Christine Marie, I rejoice that you left a life of darkness for the light. Yet the fact that in your former rebellion you chafed against direct commands and the Lordship of Christ does not change the truth.
The "ideology" you signal is the Word of God, and what the Christian faith is about.
The Christian faith is about church sacraments? I thought Jesus wanted us to follow him, not the Pharisees :confused:
If that were the case then why would I need preacher, a sinner like me, to "cleanse" me of my sins? Shouldn't I rely on Jesus to do that from within?

I cannot know what your particulars were and are, but just as often I hear from a confused generation that is desperate for someone and something to believe in--something that speaks with conviction. I will share the truth gently and respectfully, but if I preach a Cross without offense it ceases to be the Cross--and thereby loses its power to save.
Actually, I wasn't desperate for something to believe in when I was an agnostic. I never even called out to God when He came into my life, it just happened one day and from then on I realized how dark my life was before; but during that agnostic (dark) time I didn't feel that way

Once again (and I write this in a forum, knowing more will read than the named addressee), my aim is neither to offend nor to avoid offense. We are not discussing debatable points of the faith here. There is not a single Christian faith tradition that holds the position that you suggest when it comes to baptism.
Church= religion
Christianity= faith
I don't have a religion; I have faith; so I don't follow the sacraments of the church

There is no equating baptism with other liturgical ceremonies that are absent in many traditions, such as holy water, or genuflecting, or vestments for the clergy, and any number of other items. When you place baptism in water in the same category as crucifixes, you make a statement that misleads, though I would never accuse you of doing that intentionally: There is no command anywhere to carry a crucifix; the command to be baptized upon conversion is unambiguous and ubiquitous in the New Testament. You say it is not a requirement, though I can show you passage after passage that flatly contradicts that statement. It is not a requirement for salvation--it is a requirement if one wants to consider themselves a disciple of the Lord.
Okay, I, the heathen, non-disciple of The Lord, through him, have brought more people to Christ and have saved lives that would have been aborted, with in a year, then many of the "true" disciples (who have been dipped in "Holy" water) have in a life time. A lot of people think they're bringing people to The Lord when, in fact, their pride and smug sense of superiority acts as a repellent.

Similarly, when you mention living, vibrant aspects of your own Christian life, then contrast them with liturgies that are meaningless to you, you make an implication and set up a false choice: Either one will have a real, living, actualized faith that is based on spiritual realities that transcend superficial ceremony, or one will submerge themselves in formal Christianized religion and have no impact in the world. Again, I could not be more delighted with you witness. I do a fair bit of that myself. But I, having been raised Catholic and having been disillusioned with much ceremony (though later I came to recognize much of the "death" I perceived had little to do with liturgy itself), embraced a non-liturgical tradition. I don't carry a crucifix, or dip my hand in holy water, or genuflect, or carry a rosary--just for starters (neither will I demean those who do). You make much of the term "holy water," and your use of quotes indicates a level of scorn that shows you have some strong history in that area that gave birth to and sustains that scorn. Let me just say, the only thing that makes the waters of baptism holy is the fact that you step into them out of obedience to His command.
If you're referring to my insertion of quotations over ""Holy" water", I do this because I'm not sure whether it is really Holy, since that is not a word I use lightly.
In terms of the actual stepping into the water, well, couldn't that be done in any water by anyone, including yourself? Couldn't you just fill a bathtub, say a prayer asking God to cleanse you of your sins, and sit in it? Why does it only become Holy when a man/woman who chooses to become a priest/minister blesses it?

Baptism (with communion) is different from all other ceremonies or liturgies. Jesus commanded it. That's why I am not bending not an inch on this one. The choice is not between baptism or vibrant spiritual reality, but rather baptism as obedience as a critically important element in living a spiritual reality or plain disobedience. Previously, you noted something to the effect of, "Boy, this baptism thing sure has helped a lot of people!" Well, yeah it has--but not in the same way a new Chuck Swindoll book does (i.e., something that can be taken or left). Those testifying to the power of baptism refer to something deeper than just a neat expereince or something that edifies. In a world of separation from our Lord, in which "we see through the glass darkly," it is beyond edifying to know a command He has given, obey it, and hear Him whisper in the soul, "Well done, good and faithful servant." For that, there is no substitute.
In Jesus’ life time He only assured one person that they would enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and that was a thief on the cross next to Him who *shocked* was never baptized.
God has already baptized my spirit, why do I need the water when I had a baptism that transcends anything on this earth?

Btw, I see that you’re not trying to offend me, nor am I trying to offend you but it’s the Internet, and therefore, can be deceiving since we are not face-to-face and things can appear condescending. So I apologize if anything I posted comes off that way :)

[Phils Girl]

to have a relationship with god does not mean you have to be baptized but Jesus did ask us to do it

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Why does it only become Holy when a man/woman who chooses to become a priest/minister blesses it?I know there's a lot going on in this discussion, but I did want to clear up this misunderstanding: holy water is not used for baptism. There is such a thing as holy water, but ordinary water is used for baptism.

Christine Marie, you seem to making a false dichotomy of faith against any structure at all to practicing that faith. In my experience, this de facto anti-ceremonialism usually is only expressed as different ceremonialism - e.g. stressing an altar call instead of a sacramental practice, or something like that. I know nothing about your circumstances, but you might want to ask yourself - is there anything that always marks the manner you serve God? A particular style of worship music, perhaps?

[Charn_Tim]

Quote:
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

I'm not sure how this text can be debated...to me this is the end of the story.

[Wallis]

I'm sorry, folks, but I've read a lot of Christo-babble on this forum, and for the most part I've allowed it to pass. After all, an individual can think for themselves and believe anything they want to.

But when a person reaches out with a question or a problem and receives the kind of answer: "I'm sorry, sister, but that's just the way it is.", my dander finally reaches maximum.

The stumbling block that the Christ described to the Jews is the same stumbling block for most Christians and most people who want to turn to the Christ. The rituals, the mumble-jumble magic of Christian mantras, the "clothes" one must wear, the invention of "rules" based on disparate Bible passages, the "out of the body experience" one feels when accepted by or in the acceptance of the Christ: all these are the same stumbling block.

When the Christ lives in a person, the whole person changes. Not only does the Christ live in that person, but the Christ is witnessed by all other people as living in that person. There are no rules. That is what the Gospel is all about! Freedom from rules! Galatians 5:1: "It is for freedom that (the) Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery." Galatians 3: (and he is speaking to all of us) You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus (the) Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?"

The whole core of Christianity is simple: believe in the Christ and let him live in you. Putting your hope, trust, and faith in God is the simplicity, the easiness of the Christ's yoke.

What is not simple is that "the world, the flesh, and the Devil," as Martin Luther and Melancthon eloquently phrased it, is not going to make this yoke so easy. Life is not so easy that a rule book is going to have all of the answers to the decisions one must make in living life. But Christ does. And when making the tough decision to forego all logic, to forego all the natural impulses that we have learned through living, and rely completely--almost insanely so--upon God's Will and Decision-making: that is what Christianity is all about.

To love when you want to hate. To love when you want to kill. To love even as life grinds you up, severs your very being into tiny slivers, and unceremoniously returns you to the ground. That is what Christianity is all about.

Because no matter what life dishes out, God is there to save. And save He will. He will not save people because of what they have done but because they had the intestinal fortitude to stand up against all that is rational and state unequivocably: "I BELIEVE."

[Parthian King]

"Christo-babble." Hhmm. Interesting draw on quoted Scripture.

The vast majority of your discussion, Wallis, has absolutely nothing to do with the question. All the grace v. works talk cannot change that God still commands, and it is our place to obey.

[Lillee]

I am Roman Catholic. I was baptised as a child and started going to catholic school. that was purely my parents choice for me to learn about catholothism** (sorry cant spell) what I like most is that when I was in Grade 8, I had the choice to be confirmed. I understood it as when I was baptised my parents chose to raise me with God in my life and when I was confirmed it was MY choice to keep God in my life. God gave us free will. how very cool. what a guy! :)

[Charn_Tim]

Not that Parthian King needs any defending (it's not PK that is being abused, but rather Christ and his precious Word which PK defends) but I would just like to say here, "Thank you" to Parthian King for all the excellent posts that he has given on this forum and this thread. Far from "misleading" anyone, PK simply speaks the truth as it is found in the Bible-not wishy-washy modern, liberalized, secularized "theology." Thanks for the time you spend here to contribute to our understanding of Orthodox Christianity, Parthian King.

[Christine Marie]

I know there's a lot going on in this discussion, but I did want to clear up this misunderstanding: holy water is not used for baptism. There is such a thing as holy water, but ordinary water is used for baptism.
Thank you for the info, I wasn't aware that it wasn't the blessed water :D
I will stop referring to it as "Holy" water, then.

Christine Marie, you seem to making a false dichotomy of faith against any structure at all to practicing that faith. In my experience, this de facto anti-ceremonialism usually is only expressed as different ceremonialism - e.g. stressing an altar call instead of a sacramental practice, or something like that. I know nothing about your circumstances, but you might want to ask yourself - is there anything that always marks the manner you serve God? A particular style of worship music, perhaps?
If by "false dichotomy" you're referring to my separating spiritual baptism and water baptism, then yes, my "ceremony" was the second I admitted that there is a God and Christ is His son who died on the cross for our sins, that was my spiritual baptism.
In terms of staying close to God, on a secular point of view, I do this through viewing His creation, nature, and all it's beauty. By viewing His creation I grow a great appreciation and gratefulness for all He has given us. Even through creations made by man, such as art, music and literature, it shows how God works through man to create a new type of beauty.

I do listen to Christian music, not modern, but classical masses, Kyries, and such.

[inkspot]

Whoa! What you can miss in a weekend here! Chakal, God bless you for your intervention.

Wallis, you know I love you. You are strong in your defense of Christ as the Great Liberator and Amen to that!

But PK isn't preaching a gospel of rules -- you set this idea up as a paper tiger, and you have bravely slain it, but PK wasn't behind it at all; he is the last one I would call a pharisee or a "rules and rituals" guy. His only point was a very simple one: Jesus commanded the disciples to baptize people (Matthew 28:19), so there must be value in baptism, as Christ Himself was baptized and commanded His disciples to baptize others.

If you call this a religion of rules, then the tiger you must battle is Christ Himself, not PK. (Provided you believe the Christ of the Scriptures. If you believe some other Christ outside of what He says in the Bible and how He is presented in Scripture, that's different; you can believe whatever you want of such a person, of course.)

It has been made abundantly clear: if there is no time or it is impossible for a convert to be baptized, this convert is still Christ's beloved child. But if a person comes to Christ and has the means to follow Him in baptism, he should do so -- because Christ Himself commanded it.

This doesn't make it a religion of rules and rituals. Baptism was a way for believers to stand up and show the world "I have followed Christ!" in a time when to do so was very dangerous. If a believer today isn't willing to take this small step, when for us in the USA at least there is very little danger, he might want to re-examine his commitment to Christ.

Christine Marie says she feels no need to be baptized -- well, of course not, there is no physical "need" met when one is dipped in water. But if she is following the Jesus of the Bible out of love for Him, she will want to do as He did and observe His teachings. It's quite simple.

[onlymystory]

I'm not reading all the posts but here's my quick thoughts on baptism. If you have not been baptized but you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior, you are still going to heaven. The lack of baptism won't stop you. Having said that, my pastor describes baptism this way and I think its a pretty good idea.
Getting baptized is an outward sign of an inward change.

[Gibby]

I believe you pretty much summed it up, onlymystory. Some disagree strongly with that here, though.

[Parthian King]

Well, hhmmm. I guess I never thought I’d have to defend baptism, but it’s a strange world. I do appreciate Chakal’s help, as well as clarifying support from Charn Tim and Inkspot. Thanks also to onlymystory and Gibby.

Much has been said, much more than requires response. But Inkspot has already placed her finger on much of it. My worthy adversary has extrapolated a great deal from some very parsimonious statements of mine.

Actually, I just said we ought to do what Jesus said and be baptized.

My opponent has taken a very simple statement of mine and others (i.e., be baptized), and blown it up into the entire law v. gospel debate—certainly a worthy discussion concerning which I have strong feelings, but not the point of this thread. As an aside (given the tangential nature of that discussion), I would place myself more towards grace than even Melancthon (referred to—rightly—as a paragon of grace over works), who in his latter years moved away from Luther and towards Calvin on this issue.

Now for some Scripture. I have already quoted from Matthew 28 a couple of times, so I won’t revisit it. But there are other passages that confirm and clarify:

He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.—Mark 16:15-16

Note here that “belief” and “baptism” are seamlessly coupled; if you believe, you will be baptized. Condemnation is de facto, and is based on unbelief, not on failure to be baptized.

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.—Acts 2:37-38

Here, the day the Church is born, Peter answers a direct question with a direct answer: Repent and be baptized. The reception of the Holy Spirit is not placed over against (i.e., in a contrasting position) to baptism, but as working together in concert with it.

When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.—Acts 8:14-16

Here the apostles go to Samaria to follow up Philip’s successful evangelism. Philip had already baptized the new believers (even Simon got baptized—see previous verse), but the Holy Spirit came with the laying on of the apostles’ hands.

As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. Why shouldn’t I be baptized?” And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.—Acts 8:36-38

The Ethiopian Eunuch is baptized immediately as the sign of conversion.

Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized—Acts :17-18

Paul, apostle of grace to the Gentiles, is baptized upon conversion.

Then Peter said, “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.—Acts 10:46-48

After seeing Cornelius—a monotheistic, Gentile “God fearer”—receive the Holy Spirit, Peter immediately orders that he and his believing family be baptized. This is significant in that no longer are just Jewish converts being baptized, but without differentiation or hesitation Gentiles as well repent in this way.

The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized.—Acts 16:29-33

The Philippian jailor and his family convert, and are baptized immediately thereafter. The significance of this is that not only were this man and his family Gentiles, they were not even “God fearers” as Cornelius was. This man was an unbelieving pagan, with no cultural reference whatsoever to the Jewish ceremonial washings (the mikvaot, mentioned by Christine Marie) that even Cornelius may have known of. Paul, apostle of freedom and grace to the Gentiles, baptizes him and his without any discussion.

Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when a you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.—Acts 19:1-6

Here again Paul, apostle of grace to the Gentiles, speaks to Gentile “disciples” in Ephesus, a thoroughly pagan city. Once he finds that they have only been baptized with John’s baptism, what does he say? Does he say, “Oh, you’ve got it. Now Jesus, He’s all about the Spirit”? No, he is obliged to baptize them into Christ—Paul, apostle of freedom, baptizes them for a “second time” (though clearly for him it was the first). He then lays hands on them to impart the Spirit.

Now there are many passages in the epistles that address baptism, but this is getting long and I think the point is made. I will quote one, however, that I feel particularly germane:

Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.—Hebrews 6:1-2

My point here is that teaching about baptisms is both basic and plural. That is, it is ABC stuff, a step that is taken at the beginning of the road. It is not a sign of maturity, but rather immaturity. One who is baptized is confessing Christ, and should be prepared to fall down a lot (i.e., sin) as a new believer. Baptism is merely (but significantly) the thing that God has laid down as the first step in a long journey. It is plural in the sense that there are baptisms: Jesus is the baptizer in the Holy Spirit, but He is also the One who commands baptism in water as a sign of repentance and conversion.

Being baptized does not give one “flag waiving rights”—either before men or before God. My point is absolutely to the contrary:

“So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’”—Jesus, Luke 17:10
We’ve been told something by our Lord on this issue. To do it buys us nothing at all—His blood has bought everything of value we could ever need. It just makes us obedient, as disciples should be. That is enough reward in itself.

[inkspot]

Very good, PK! This is exactly what I think, as well. Salvation is imparted the moment you believe -- but if your belief is sincere at it is in any way possible for you to be baptized, you will want to do so, because Jesus told you to. It's one of the first things you can do to show your love for Him and your willingness to live for Him, different than you were before He found you. Why would any believer not want to take this step?

To refuse would be similar, in US culture, to refusing to wear your beloved's wedding ring -- "You and I know we're married, darling, so why make an issue of it?" You do it because you love your partner and are desiring to please them ... You're legally wed even if you don't wear the ring, and you can behave like a nice, married person, but why not go all the way and wear the ring as a symbol of love and respect? if you don't want to ... maybe your love isn't as strong as you imagine?

PK, I think Wallis gets kicked around sometimes in this Forum cuz he's not as Bible-bound as some of us, and maybe he is remembering some other slur in some other Thread by some other Bible-based Christian which he's attributing to you? I didn't think you insulted his intelligence or education. I know you wouldn't have done so in a mean-spirited way.

[EveningStar]

Ladies and gentlemen, I've been approached by both sides of this debate with the question, "Why do X's remarks remain while I am not allowed further rebuttal?"

I am going to do what I believe is fair to all. I am going to go back through this thread and delete every reference to any particular person's moral character, educational level, hypocrisy, and personal hygiene.

This is the only fair way to cut off discussion and personal attacks without leaving someone as the odd man out. May God judge me gently for this. I hope it is what I am called to do and I undertake it in a spirit of healing and reconciliation. If I missed anything, PM me and I'll see to it straightway. Be sure to give me the message number located in the upper right.

PLEASE NOTE: I am giving up a significant percentage of my time on The Dancing Lawn to spend chasing down reported incidents rather than write stories and poems and move people's work to the new Library Site. I am hardly a control freak. Every time I get paged, it's not a quest, a great adventure. It's putting my fun on hold and struggling for just the right words to fix one problem without creating another. It's like getting a sales call while eating dinner or watching a movie with the family. It's like the doorbell ringing when I'm in the shower. Lots of people want to be mods, which is proof they have no idea what it's really like. So before anyone thinks I enjoy smiting mortals, think again. :o

[Parthian King]

Ink, you are right on the money, even in the realm of biblical theology. Baptism and the receiving of the Holy Spirit are tightly bound together in the passages I quoted because both are associated with the process and experience of conversion. The word Paul used to describe one of the roles/meanings for the Holy Spirit in our lives is the Greek arrabón--the "down payment," ref. Ephesians 1:14 (btw, almost a direct cognate in Spanish). This same term is the Greek word for engagement ring.

Baptism is the "engagement ring" we wear to outwardly show what the Lord has given us in the Holy Spirit--Himself a gift promising an eternity with the Lord our heavenly groom.

P.S. Many, many thanks to Chakal for his excellence in moderating this thread.

[diddl]

"One of the criminals who was hanged insulted him, saying, if you are the Christ, save yourself and us! But the other answered, and rebuking him said, don't you even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong. He said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom. Jesus said to him, assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise. "
(Luke Ch23 Verses 39 to 43)

Catholic church say they must be baptised to be saved. But brigand on the crucifix was saved without being baptised.

" He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned. "
(Mark Ch16 Verse16)

Baptism is a consequence of the faith, but if one who is baptised doesn't believe, he will not be saved.

[Parthian King]

Friend diddl, have you read the previous posts?

[Charn_Tim]

Please do not post incorrect information on this thread-namely, that the "Catholic church says they must be baptised to be saved." Besides, this is not a thread to knock our Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ, it is to discuss Baptism.

[inkspot]

Diddl, I have noticed your great passion for the faith, and I applaud it! I also notice you sometimes pop into the middle of a discussion and deliver your message without regard to all which has come before your post. Sometimes, this makes it look as if you are convinced of your own righteousness to the point where you need not consider anyone else's views. Perhaps this has a deleterious effect on your argument. The very people you wish to reach may ignore your post because they believe you have not given them the respect of even reading their words before you posted your own.

You may find you receive more positive response, more people willing to read and accept your words, if you, yourself, read through all the posts and respond in a way which takes into account what has come before. In your post, for instance, you say:
Catholic church say they must be baptised to be saved.
In fact, the Catholic view has not come into play here at all, and those of us most likely to hold orthodox views have all already stated when baptism is impossible, a sincere believer will certainly be saved without it, per your example of the thief on the cross. You are covering ground which has already been covered, and you are insulting Catholics. I don't think (based on your previous posts) you care that much who you insult, but if you are following Christ, perhaps He cares?

Then you say:
Baptism is a consequence of the faith, but if one who is baptised doesn't believe, he will not be saved.
No one has yet, anywhere in the Thread, tried to state that baptism alone saves. This idea (in the negative) originates with you, and it is curious to me why you would even bring it up.

All I am saying is: your passion for Truth is inspiring! But don't let your passion for the Truth you already know make you blind to what Truth is contained in others' beliefs, and don't let your knowledge of Truth make you so arrogant that others find it easy to dismiss your arguments. If you do, all the good you intend will be undone because no one will listen to you.

[Señor Puntos]

Jimmy, in case you hadn't noticed, your Beast post in the Professor's Notebook inspired me to write an answer: Beast II.

Cool, I just assumed you had already written a story called Beast.

[waterhogboy]

Right - dont shout at me but I couldnt be bothered trawling through the thread before posting so sorry if i repeat someone.

This is a difficult issue to explain. To some extent baptism is NOT necessary, because it is only through Jesus we are saved, not be any other means. Being baptised does not grant you salvation. However, there are two ordinances that Jesus COMMANDS us to do - baptism and communion. Therefore, although baptism is NOT necessary for salvation - we MUST be baptised because Jesus COMMANDS we must.

[Charn_Tim]

WHB, that is pretty much the general consensus we came to in this thread. That's actually a very good summary of how I think about the issue :)

[inkspot]

Hey, WHB. Nice to see your tusks again!

[Gryphon]

Thanks for summing it up WHB, (b-_-)b <thumbs up kirby

[Goldenrod22]

Hi! :)
Did somebody already say this...?

My belief is that the Bible is very clear on its command to be baptized. In every example we see in the Bible, the first reaction of any person commiting themselves to Christ is to get baptized. Some entire households were saved and then baptized. They recognized that they needed to do that which Christ himself did (he was b. by John the Baptist)! I think it is not only a symbol of you wanting to be cleansed and 'reborn' but also the commitment you are making to live the rest of your life as a new person.
I have a friend that does not think baptizing is necessary. They are devoted to Christ, just not to that idea. It is so hard for me to say that they won't go to heaven, because they have believed. Still, why should'nt some one get baptized? There are so many people in the New Testament who did get b. immediately on being saved!

I'm so torn on this.

[inkspot]

Almost everyone in the NT was baptized immediately upon recognizing their need for Christ as savior. There is no reason for anyone to reject baptism unless they simply have not understood it is a command. It is commanded in the scriptures, and even before the Scriptures were written, Christ had commanded it, and His disciples carried it out.

If it were of no importance -- and option left open to us when and if we felt like doing it -- why would the Scriptures repeatedly link it to the moment after a decision for Christ?

[Narnialuver04]

I believe that you don't have to get baptized (I'm guessing thats how you spell it??)to go to heaven. :) But you Have to ask Jesus into your heart and know He is your personal Savior. If you can you Should get baptized(am i spelling this right. It don't look right to me :confused:) if you can. Getting Baptized(okay now I know this is not spelled right!!!) means that you are just showing everyone that you have been saved and you are comitting to live your life for God(Jesus). That is all it(haha :D ) means to me.Oh If any one is interested in becoming a christian I know that : truelovewaits is offering to help.

[Señor Puntos]

Actually you spelt baptized right.

[Sezzie87]

Well I agree with 2 of the things said above so far - if you're not baptised it doesn't mean that you're not actually saved... just that ur waiting too long, and that in the Bible baptism was a command, and yeah I agree that once uve made the commitment there's nooo reason not to get baptized. However i still think that if you become a christian and die before you get the chance to be baptised, you'd still go to heaven, it says in the Bible:

'No-one comes to the father but through me' John

not

'No-one comes to the father unless they are baptised'

We are saved by grace and faith, not by actions or words we might do or say - that would be legalism.

Wheee I like this :D

[Señor Puntos]

Hmm double post Sezzie, and Narnialuver, you did spell baptised wrong after all.

[Sezzie87]

Ummmm not sure how that double post thing happened... :rolleyes:

oops

and baptised can be spelt with a z or an s!! :D

[Irisia]

Is being baptised totally necessary for having a relationship with God or is it just something you can do to show your love to him? I just wanted to know is all incase I ever become christian. :D
as far as i know you dont have to be baptized to be a christian. i have been a christain since i was little and never been baptized.
i do want to be baptized soon though.

[inkspot]

as far as i know you dont have to be baptized to be a christian. i have been a christain since i was little and never been baptized.
i do want to be baptized soon though.
Good for you, Irisia! Baptism is a way to show your family and friends you are serious in your commitment to Christ. I encourage you to take this step as soon as you can.

[Gibby]

Is it just me, or is post #65 weird? On my computer, it extends beyond the borders. Is that just my computer? hmm...

[Señor Puntos]

Is it just me, or is post #65 weird? On my computer, it extends beyond the borders. Is that just my computer? hmm...
Yea, #65 was totally crazy. Must be an unlucky number.

[inkspot]

Do you think it is because the "location" line is so long? Maybe it all has to stay on one line, so it extends the box all crazy?

[Gibby]

Maybe. hmm... Jimmy K. That picture in your signature is going to give me nightmares. Anyway, back to the topic, sorry.

[kirke]

as i understand the bible it says that baptism is a profession of your faith... all it is, is telling the world "I am a follower of Christ"

i saw WAY early into the conversation stuff about how you are baptised. The greek word used for baptised litterally translates to emersed with water. I am not saying emmersion is the only correct way, because you can profess your faith with an ounce of water just as well with in my churches case a hottub filled with water (not bubbling of course)

[kirke]

Hi! :)
Did somebody already say this...?

My belief is that the Bible is very clear on its command to be baptized. In every example we see in the Bible, the first reaction of any person commiting themselves to Christ is to get baptized. Some entire households were saved and then baptized. They recognized that they needed to do that which Christ himself did (he was b. by John the Baptist)! I think it is not only a symbol of you wanting to be cleansed and 'reborn' but also the commitment you are making to live the rest of your life as a new person.
I have a friend that does not think baptizing is necessary. They are devoted to Christ, just not to that idea. It is so hard for me to say that they won't go to heaven, because they have believed. Still, why should'nt some one get baptized? There are so many people in the New Testament who did get b. immediately on being saved!

I'm so torn on this.

figured i would put my imput on this... you have to believe one of 2 things here...

either it was a command and necessary for salvation- since you mention that even Christ was baptised then you give me the sense that you believe Christ needed to be saved; which would mean all Christianity is wrong.

or that it was a command but not necessary for salvation- this is tricky because you look at the theif on the cross; and i have talked with a Oneness Pentacostle (sp) pastor who made a good point, though i dont agree with it as more than a loophole in our conversation. Christ had not yet died and defeated death so the mosaic law was still in place (for the whole few hours mind you)... so there has to be another explaination...

Or Command that is sin if not obeyed-- This explaination would be perfectly logical. It doesnt destroy the deity of Christ, and the only unpardonable sin Christ said after casting our Legion was "Blasphemy of the Spirit" and by not being baptised you do not blaspheme anything. This would mean you have another sin to confess... The problem with this one is that some people are not physically capable of being baptised such as elderly people, but Jesus is a loving God, and i think it would pardon baptism ESPECIALLY if you were uncapable of doing it... remember every child goes to heaven before they reach the age of accountabilty without accepting Christ

[inkspot]

Or Command that is sin if not obeyed
Yes, I think this is the explanation. It is not necessary for salvation, because the Bible says by grace we are saved through faith -- nothing about baptism. But Jesus commanded us to follow His example in baptism, so if we refuse to do so (but why would you refuse?) it is a willful disregard of one of His commands: a sin. Keep in mind, though, every Christian probably transgresses some command every day -- not all of us can maintain perfect self-control, exhibit perfect love and compassion, use perfect prudence and patience, every minute. (Okay, none of us can!)

So we constantly come to Christ in repentance, to ask for His Spirit to fill us, and lead us into righteousness. This He does every minute, and thus we learn to walk in Him. So, a person can be saved, but not baptized, but when the means to be baptized is available and the person continues to refuse it, the question remains open: why are you willingly disobeying Christ's command? What is it within you which rebels at this simple act?

Is your faith in Christ as strong as you believe, your love for Jesus as strong as you think, if you can daily turn a blind eye to this thing He has commanded you to do? Why should something he went through and asks you to go through as a sign of your faith in Him be so noxious to you? And if you refuse to keep this simple command for whatever reason, what hope have you of pleasing Him in other ways?

[chuam8919]

Probably the best way to illustrate baptism is marriage. If you truly love and adore someone, you would want to marry that person. however, just because you are unable to marry does not mean that you don't love that person. However, if you don't marry when you are able to, then you're not really loving that person as much as you profess to.

I guess the summation of all this is: Why would you not want to be baptised when you love Jesus with all your heart?

[Gibby]

Probably the best way to illustrate baptism is marriage. If you truly love and adore someone, you would want to marry that person. however, just because you are unable to marry does not mean that you don't love that person. However, if you don't marry when you are able to, then you're not really loving that person as much as you profess to.

I guess the summation of all this is: Why would you not want to be baptised when you love Jesus with all your heart?

Who can argue with this? Not me!

[Goldenrod22]

you give me the sense that you believe Christ needed to be saved; which would mean all Christianity is wrong.

...or that it was a command but not necessary for salvation- this is tricky because you look at the theif on the cross...

HI! :D I'm in a great mood today, thus the huge smile.

Kirke, I don't believe Christ needed to be saved from sin (and so was baptised). He did it as an example for his followers, AND (here is a big point) to glorify God through his act. Just as Jesus reduced himself to the level of servant, washing the disciple's feet, so he showed that we should be baptised to please God and to show our reverence for Him.

You look at the thief on the cross and realize that Jesus gave a direct pardon to him, knowing the man's heart as only Jesus can. It was because the man believed that he was saved, yes, but there is something else to be seen here.
If you were devoted to Christ and to his words and he asked you to do something (even as silly as 'Go and meet so-and-so at the bank today for me') would you dawdle around and say...'Naw, not neccessary to be saved.'
Wouldn't Jesus think that you were being ungrateful, lazy, and disobedient to his Word? And what if you had the same excuse for many,many years?
I think children should make the decision when they understand what they are doing, and I don't believe that they are guilty of refusing Christ at two or three (when they do not have the ability to make that decision). God knows their heart as well, which is why it is so important that the unborn child is not aborted, a life that could make that decision for Christ when grown.

:D (For no reason)

[chuam8919]

I agree. God works in what has been summed up in a Bible text: "...to much is given, much is required..." Basically that God judges on what knowledge has been given to us in our time. Children at a tender age have no conception that what they're doing is wrong (as they've not been fully exposed yet to all forms of transgression), as well as that when you tell them it's wrong, it's not completely easy for them to remember. (For those knowing the brain's physiology, their hippocampus at that time isn't really developed as we would like it to be)

[Twilight]

Baptism isn't essential for salvation in Christ. It doesn't say that in order to be a Christian, you must get baptized. However, being baptized is a very good idea because through it you're announcing that you have made a decision to follow Christ.

[The First Joke]

Is being baptised totally necessary for having a relationship with God or is it just something you can do to show your love to him? I just wanted to know is all incase I ever become christian. :D


As a Catholic, I believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation. However, there are two flavors of Baptism that are different from the tradtional dunking. On the contrary, Twilight, Baptism is not just a statement that you will follow Christ. It is saying that you will live as a Christian and you have been freed from you Original Sin.

[Aravis Kenobi]

humm wouldnt' it help more though? just my opinion......looking at the cross, i mean it should make you love God more, and it should bring you closer to him..just seeing how much he suffered for you.....thats just what i think. :)

I had to respond to this post without reading through the rest of the thread: baptism still won't save you. I've been baptized twice, the first time was a fake. I wasn't truly saved, therefore the water couldn't symbolize me being a Christian. The second time, it was real. In Baptist churches, or at least Southern Baptist churches, to take the Lord's Supper, you have to be a Christian and be baptized. As for the latter, I'm not sure why. If you're already a Christian, why not just go ahead and let them take the Lord's Supper? (which is similar to the ceremony the Catholics observe, though quite different, it's sort of similar) I went to a youth camp and the pastor there said this: The cross isn't cool, it's cruel. I also heard another person say, this guy made crosses. not ones that were polished or beautiful, but ones that were rough, unsanded, and to most, ugly. But the rough wood symbolized that Jesus died on a rough cross, not on a smooth, polished, pretty cross. Even a rough cross like that to a Christian is beautiful because of what it symbolizes. (if you haven't guessed, I'm a preacher's kid, and that's where I get a lot of info on the SB churches.)

[Adanedhel]

Do you think God really cares about some symbolic process, a ritual, more than the act of confessing one's own sins and then repenting. I believe that God cares much more for actual faith then some ritual. Rituals remind me to much of the Pharasies for which Jesus was so critical.

[Aravis Kenobi]

Do you think God really cares about some symbolic process, a ritual, more than the act of confessing one's own sins and then repenting. I believe that God cares much more for actual faith then some ritual. Rituals remind me to much of the Pharasies for which Jesus was so critical.

Yes, you're exactly right. If we're being baptized for the wrong reasons, then God hates it. It's mocking Him. However, if you're doing it out of a true example to the church body of believers, then He loves that you're wanting to show Him and what He's done for you in your life.

But remember, Jesus gave His disciples the command to baptize: "Go ye therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them..."

I think Jesus meant two things by that statement: first, evangelize them. If they repent, then you baptize them. That's only my thought on that verse, but I can see where some of the others might not think so.

[The First Joke]

I had to respond to this post without reading through the rest of the thread: baptism still won't save you. I've been baptized twice, the first time was a fake. I wasn't truly saved, therefore the water couldn't symbolize me being a Christian. The second time, it was real. In Baptist churches, or at least Southern Baptist churches, to take the Lord's Supper, you have to be a Christian and be baptized. As for the latter, I'm not sure why. If you're already a Christian, why not just go ahead and let them take the Lord's Supper? (which is similar to the ceremony the Catholics observe, though quite different, it's sort of similar) I went to a youth camp and the pastor there said this: The cross isn't cool, it's cruel. I also heard another person say, this guy made crosses. not ones that were polished or beautiful, but ones that were rough, unsanded, and to most, ugly. But the rough wood symbolized that Jesus died on a rough cross, not on a smooth, polished, pretty cross. Even a rough cross like that to a Christian is beautiful because of what it symbolizes. (if you haven't guessed, I'm a preacher's kid, and that's where I get a lot of info on the SB churches.)

What do you mean when you say that your first Baptism was a fake?

[Aravis Kenobi]

What do you mean when you say that your first Baptism was a fake?

I wasn't really saved. I was doing it because my friend was getting saved, and it sounded fun, but at the time, I was only five or six, and I had absolutely no clue as to why I did it. However, I was truly saved at the age of 11, and my second baptism was true. :)

[The First Joke]

How do you know if you are truly save at present?

[Aravis Kenobi]

Because when I was saved, I actually knew what I was doing and why I was doing it. Though I've rededicated my life to Christ over the last years, but my dad says that that needs to be a daily thing.

[The First Joke]

but how do you know that you will get to Heaven?

[Lady of Lorien]

I believe that baptism is necessary to salvation. However, that doesn't mean that a pagan in a distant land who tries to live in accordance with what he knows to be right is going to go to Hell. Catholics believe that, not only is there Baptism with water - the normal kind; There are two other kinds: Baptism by Desire; If a person truly wanted to be baptized, but couldn't for some reason, or hadn't yet, they were in fact baptized by desire. This includes the pagan I mentioned before. He didn't know about Baptism per se, so he couldn't even desire it consciously; he did know, as every human knows, good to a certain extent, and wanted to follow that good. If he acted in the closest accordance with the god and good he knows and sought the truth, he could recieve Baptism by Desire.
The second non-water type of Baptism, we call "Baptism by Blood." If you die for the Christian faith, even if you are not yet Christian, you become baptized. I think it makes sense that if you are martyred for it, you have a claim to belong to it!
So anyways, we do believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation. But there is no way a person simply CANNOT receive salvation, because Baptism is available to everyone.
A final note - we also believe that anyone, even an atheist, can dispense Baptism with water if he simply pours the water and says the words. So it really isn't hard to be baptized, even if you're in a tight spot and likely to die any moment! :)
Edit: It took so long to write this that a lot of other posts happened in between. So I wanted to add... Baptism is the outward sign of the inward grace. However, we are human, physical. Christ did establish both outward AND inward parts, and require both:
"Truly, truly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:5

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 3:38

[The First Joke]

well said... again! but i still want to know how Aravis knows that she is going to Heaven.

[Aravis Kenobi]

well said... again! but i still want to know how Aravis knows that she is going to Heaven.

Because of the Bible. I know, though I sometimes doubt, that I'm going to Heaven. How do you know you're going to Heaven?

[The First Joke]

I don't know if I'm going to Heaven. Sure I would like to think I am, but it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle... especially these days.
I can believe in the Bible all I want... and then I could go kill a bunch of people and still believe in the Bible. Will I still go to Heaven?

[Aravis Kenobi]

I don't know if I'm going to Heaven. Sure I would like to think I am, but it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle... especially these days.
I can believe in the Bible all I want... and then I could go kill a bunch of people and still believe in the Bible. Will I still go to Heaven?

No, you won't. As I said before, denomination won't save you; only Christ can. Sorry if that's offensive to the Catholic, but it was meant as no such thing. The only way to achieve salvation, is through Christ Himself, and no one else. For Christ said: "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:6

[Lady of Lorien]

Of course Christ saves us! We don't think anything else! It is just that we believe we have to FOLLOW Him, or why would He save us? As for denomination saving us... Again, Christ does that. It is just that if there are so many denominations with so many totally conflicting ideas, they can't ALL be right, can they?

[The First Joke]

How do are we saved through Christ? What if I never went to church? What if I threw eggs at my neighbor every time he left his house? And I do think that denomination matters.

[Aravis Kenobi]

Of course Christ saves us! We don't think anything else! It is just that we believe we have to FOLLOW Him, or why would He save us? As for denomination saving us... Again, Christ does that. It is just that if there are so many denominations with so many totally conflicting ideas, they can't ALL be right, can they?

Yes, that's what I was meaning to say. Though denominations don't agree a lot of times, if we all have the saving grace of Christ in our lives, denomination shouldn't matter! Hey, I respect the Catholic because they are so well-grounded in what they believe. I think the Baptists need to be doing the same thing.

[The First Joke]

but the probelm is... Christians don't all agree upon things. We should have called for reformation instead of revolt during the sixteenth century... and earlier or course.

[Aravis Kenobi]

How do are we saved through Christ? What if I never went to church? What if I threw eggs at my neighbor every time he left his house? And I do think that denomination matters.

You mean how do we know we are saved through Christ? By John 14:6, the verse I quoted above. "for if you confess with your mouth that Christ Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (that's not John 14:6, I cant' remember the reference to this one.)

Going to church or mass doesn't save you either. The reason you should go to church is in order to strengthen your faith and relationship with Christ. And, to connect with other believers who can encourage you and support you. It's like baptism: church doesn't save you, baptism doesn't save you, good works don't save you, only Christ can.

[Aravis Kenobi]

but the probelm is... Christians don't all agree upon things. We should have called for reformation instead of revolt during the sixteenth century... and earlier or course.

No, we dont' all agree. If we did, something's wrong. I believe that's the result of Adam and Eve's fall in Genesis.

[The First Joke]

Right, but Jesus came to save us and HE set up some guidelines for us, telling us how we should get to Heaven.

[Aravis Kenobi]

Right, but Jesus came to save us and HE set up some guidelines for us, telling us how we should get to Heaven.

Yes, He did. Through Him. He said that the only way to the Father (God) is through Him and through His salvation.

[Lady of Lorien]

How do are we saved through Christ? What if I never went to church? What if I threw eggs at my neighbor every time he left his house? And I do think that denomination matters.

I didn't say that denomination didn't matter. I just meant that we don't put denomination INSTEAD of Christ. That makes no sense at all! We choose our denomination BECAUSE of Christ. Otherwise why bother? My point was simply that I'm Catholic because I believe that the Catholic Church has the truth. Not everything every denomination says can be true, because a lot of it conflicts with the other statements of other denominations. So there must be ONE that Christ established when he "built His Church." This Church would have the real, whole truth...or else why would He make it? I believe it is the Catholic Church. I don't say that to be offensive to anyone in any way. I don't attack anyone, it's just that when a question is asked....I want to answer when I can! :D

[The First Joke]

Yeah, but we have to follow Him somehow here on Earth. How do we follow? Through the true Church which Jesus Himself set up.

[Aravis Kenobi]

Yeah, but we have to follow Him somehow here on Earth. How do we follow? Through the true Church which Jesus Himself set up.

Jesus is the true Church. It was said of Jesus that He was the "chief cornerstone, the one the builders rejected." meaning that He Himself is the true Church, not a Baptist or Presbyterian or anything else. (personally, that's my belief and in not any way attacking anyone on this thread or forum)

[echoscot]

Maybe I've missed the point here, but I seem to disagree with just about everything I've read. This baptism of blood thing really bothers me because it tells me that if I die for the faith, then I have bought my own way into Heaven and that means Christ's death on the cross was neither sufficient nor enough to cover me. I paid for it with my OWN blood, I worked for it, I earned it so God HAS to give it to me.

The faith I have is in accordance with Ephesians 2:8-9 that it is a "FREE" gift "NOT OF WORKS SO THAT NO MAN CAN BOAST" Nobody deserves it, nobody can pay for it. If I have to get wet or something then I have done some work of my own to buy it. The thief on the cross died that day and was accepted into Paradise by Christ's own words. His blood wasn't spilled for any faith, but for being a thief. He did not submit himself to any other to have water poured on Him, the statement of his acceptance came at his death. He certainly couldn't have desired baptism, because Jesus never mentioned it to him and he died before anyone could explain that well it's nice Christ invited you in, but you still have to get wet or it doesn't count. The Great commision certainly was an order to the apostles and to us to go out and baptize people into the faith, but that is by no means a dicatate of their salvation experience, rather it is a directive of obedience to the faith. The passage in John of being "born of water and the spirit" is not an indication of Baptism at all. The original Greek was a reference to birth of flesh. And this is clearly indicated when it is put back into the context of Nicodemus question:
"Can a man enter his mother's womb a second time?"

Now works do play a part but not for salvation. Christ's work on the cross is sufficient to pay the debt. I cannot prove by any form that I deserve or have earned it. The whole book of Acts has statements such as "Believe on the Lord Jesus and be baptized" but that is a summary statement of faith not a recipe for salvation. Baptism is a symbol of repentance and obedience. The whole reason Christ himself submitted to baptism was not because he needed salvation, but because he was submitting to God's authority in obedience, publicly. And as to who can administer or receive it, if either is not in the right attitude then all you have done is make somebody wet. God doesn't look at the outward appearance but the inward one. It is an extremely legalistic argument at best to suggest that baptism is how we get our salvation.

It bothers me as much that sometimes we have reduced salvation to the recitation of "The Sinner's Prayer" and if you say this and really mean it you will be saved. Sounds like some kind of Wiccan incantation only we don't require you to be nude under the full moon with a set of crystals or powders around to have the little magic spell work.

Okay, I am really tired but had to throw some of my two cents in because I was really bothered by some of this. Sorry if it sounds harsh, I may re-read it tomorrow and have second thoughts about how I phrased this, but I still felt it needed to be said.

[Lady of Lorien]

Jesus is the true Church. It was said of Jesus that He was the "chief cornerstone, the one the builders rejected." meaning that He Himself is the true Church, not a Baptist or Presbyterian or anything else. (personally, that's my belief and in not any way attacking anyone on this thread or forum)

But in the Bible, He obviously does set up a Church. I mean, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for Him to say, "O.K., you can go to Heaven if you believe in me. Now, I'm going to leave, and I'm not going to tell you WHAT to believe in me, or how you should live or anything. As much as I've said...well, you know that. The rest of it you can figure out. I don't particularly care how you live, as long as you believe I'll take you to Heaven at the end."

In Matthew, he says "I say to you you are Peter, and upon this rock, I will build my Church." In Acts, there are tons of examples of the Apostles, ESPECIALLY St. Peter, delivering teachings and giving out judgements on certain matters etc... The Church in action!

[Aravis Kenobi]

Ok, this woman was witnessing to this other woman who wasn't saved. She asked the woman to pray the Sinner's Prayer, but after a few minutes, she told the other woman to talk to God on her own, without any prompting. I think some people are afraid of saying it, but maybe we just need to give them the starting words and let them do the rest with us praying for them as they pray to God.

[Aravis Kenobi]

But in the Bible, He obviously does set up a Church. I mean, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for Him to say, "O.K., you can go to Heaven if you believe in me. Now, I'm going to leave, and I'm not going to tell you WHAT to believe in me, or how you should live or anything. As much as I've said...well, you know that. The rest of it you can figure out. I don't particularly care how you live, as long as you believe I'll take you to Heaven at the end."

In Matthew, he says "I say to you you are Peter, and upon this rock, I will build my Church." In Acts, there are tons of examples of the Apostles, ESPECIALLY St. Peter, delivering teachings and giving out judgements on certain matters etc... The Church in action!

You got me misunderstood. Yes, Jesus told His disciples to be builders of churches, but only builders of churches upon Him, the true Church. That's what I was meaning to say. Sorry if I didnt' state it clearly enough.

[Lady of Lorien]

Maybe I've missed the point here, but I seem to disagree with just about everything I've read. This baptism of blood thing really bothers me because it tells me that if I die for the faith, then I have bought my own way into Heaven and that means Christ's death on the cross was neither sufficient nor enough to cover me. I paid for it with my OWN blood, I worked for it, I earned it so God HAS to give it to me.

The faith I have is in accordance with Ephesians 2:8-9 that it is a "FREE" gift "NOT OF WORKS SO THAT NO MAN CAN BOAST" Nobody deserves it, nobody can pay for it. If I have to get wet or something then I have done some work of my own to buy it. The thief on the cross died that day and was accepted into Paradise by Christ's own words. His blood wasn't spilled for any faith, but for being a thief. He did not submit himself to any other to have water poured on Him, the statement of his acceptance came at his death. He certainly couldn't have desired baptism, because Jesus never mentioned it to him and he died before anyone could explain that well it's nice Christ invited you in, but you still have to get wet or it doesn't count. The Great commision certainly was an order to the apostles and to us to go out and baptize people into the faith, but that is by no means a dicatate of their salvation experience, rather it is a directive of obedience to the faith. The passage in John of being "born of water and the spirit" is not an indication of Baptism at all. The original Greek was a reference to birth of flesh. And this is clearly indicated when it is put back into the context of Nicodemus question:
"Can a man enter his mother's womb a second time?"

Now works do play a part but not for salvation. Christ's work on the cross is sufficient to pay the debt. I cannot prove by any form that I deserve or have earned it. The whole book of Acts has statements such as "Believe on the Lord Jesus and be baptized" but that is a summary statement of faith not a recipe for salvation. Baptism is a symbol of repentance and obedience. The whole reason Christ himself submitted to baptism was not because he needed salvation, but because he was submitting to God's authority in obedience, publicly. And as to who can administer or receive it, if either is not in the right attitude then all you have done is make somebody wet. God doesn't look at the outward appearance but the inward one. It is an extremely legalistic argument at best to suggest that baptism is how we get our salvation.

It bothers me as much that sometimes we have reduced salvation to the recitation of "The Sinner's Prayer" and if you say this and really mean it you will be saved. Sounds like some kind of Wiccan incantation only we don't require you to be nude under the full moon with a set of crystals or powders around to have the little magic spell work.

Okay, I am really tired but had to throw some of my two cents in because I was really bothered by some of this. Sorry if it sounds harsh, I may re-read it tomorrow and have second thoughts about how I phrased this, but I still felt it needed to be said.

I think maybe in some of these areas you misunderstood what I was trying to say... I'm very sorry if I didn't phrase myself clearly enough! I'll try to restate some things.

Catholics in no way, shape, or form believe that our salvation is due to something we have done to "buy" it. If Christ hadn't obtained salvation for mankind, then nothing we could do or say would get it for us. However, I think you will probably agree with me if I say that there are people on earth who turn away from and reject this great, amazing gift? I probably explained the baptism of blood unclearly. By dying for the Faith, you ARE accepting Christ. Obviously, you wouldn't die for Him unless you accepted Him? I'm not saying we purchase salvation by dying, and Christ has nothing to do with it. Just that if a person dies for Christ, he or she accepts Him, and that obviously is fine in place of Baptism!

Neither do we think that we earn salvation by our works. We are saved by Christ alone! However, we must accept His incredible gift of salvation. God gave us free will - another incredible gift - and He isn't going to save us if we refuse to be saved! I'm not that I am really accepting Jesus if I go around murdering people, right? Would He want me to do that? No. We must live the faith we profess with our mouth.
Philippians 2:12-13 "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work."
So God works in us both to desire AND to work. I can never earn salvation. I can refuse to accept it. That, I must not do, either in words, OR in actions.

About Baptism...there is an outward and an inward part. It is not simply "getting wet" and living happily ever after because the water is our free pass to Heaven. We must accept Jesus. He told us to be baptized. I mentioned before...we are human, physical beings. God made us that way. God is so good to us that He even set up an outward sign for us, to go along with the inside part. That doesn't mean we will be saved if we don't get the inside part right! In fact, if we "pretend" on the outside that we are accepting Christ, but on the inside we reject Him, isn't that even worse for the falsity of it? But since God did set up this sign, why would we refuse to use it and then say that we still accept Jesus? "Oh, I accept you, and salvation. But I refuse to use the physical sign that you set up FOR MY BENEFIT!" Wouldn't that be ungrateful, to say the least? If Jesus found it good to attach an outward, physical sign, who are we to say otherwise?

If it is not possible for us to use the outward sign of water, then God won't hold our salvation to the sign. That was where the Baptism of desire comes in. We truly accept Jesus and His gift of salvation, but cannot manage to do it with the conventional sign that He set up. We're still saved. That's all I was getting at! And with the thief on the Cross... I did say, a person doesn't have to know about and desire physical Baptism in order to receive it. The thief obviously accepted Jesus, accepted His salvation, totally and completely. He couldn't make use of the sign...of course! He didn't even know about it, most likely. He surely would have if he'd known and he hadn't been hanging on a cross...but that wasn't the way things were. Jesus didn't turn him away because he couldn't and didn't use the sign.

Last thing: Why would the person who did the Baptizing affect the Baptism itself? Jesus is the one who gives the gift, NOT the human being who pours the water! He can do that any way He wants to. He wouldn't let someone go to Hell when they had accepted salvation simply because they couldn't find another Christian to baptize them! And of course a person will not be saved, even if they submit to having water poured over their head and words said, if they still innerly reject Christ!

I hope this makes what I said earlier a little clearer? Again, I am sorry if it came across wrong!

[SlpNarniaQueen]

I think its something that you do to show your love toward him. Baptisim is just pronouncing that you have been saved in front of the congrigation, but I don't believe you MUST be baptized to be a Christian.

[Lucy the Marshwiggle]

Baptism is not essential for salvation.

Romans 10:9 says, "If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Baptism is just a public confession of your faith.

If a little baby goes to get baptized, does that mean that he/she is saved just by baptism alone? NO he/she isn't because he/she doesn't understand the full meaning of salvation at that age.

[SlpNarniaQueen]

Amen, sista, amen! Couldn't have said it better myself!

[Son of Adam]

No, being baptized is not essential for salvation. If it were then Jesus could not have said to the theif on the cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise". For many people, baptism is something, due to age or illness that they are unable to participate in.

However, for those who are able to be baptized, we are commanded by the Lord to be such. Not because it is essential for salvation, but it is the outward sign of an inward change in our lives when Christ becomes Lord of our lives.

Also, as a pastor and Bible college teacher, I believe that baptism is something that is for believers. I believe in dedicating babies and children to the Lord, but that the act of baptism follows those who have repented and received Christ as Saviour.

[Lila]

Is being baptised totally necessary for having a relationship with God or is it just something you can do to show your love to him? I just wanted to know is all incase I ever become christian. :D

No, I do not believe it is necessary. Part of the reason of being baptized is to show everyone that you have made the decision to follow Christ. But it's not like you can't go to heaven if you aren't baptized.

[Aravis Kenobi]

And on a side note, for Baptists, there is complete immersion (meaning the full body gets wet) not just someone pouring the water onto the head. My dad has baptized me twice; I'm glad he does it. He's an awesome preacher! Anyway. Just thought I'd say that not all churches do baptism by pouring water on the head.

[Lady of Lorien]

We believe that Baptism by immersion is baptism too. Why would it matter whether just your head or all of you got wet? :) Anyways, in the Bible they talk about Baptizing people in rivers and things. :D

[Lila]

And on a side note, for Baptists, there is complete immersion (meaning the full body gets wet) not just someone pouring the water onto the head. My dad has baptized me twice; I'm glad he does it. He's an awesome preacher! Anyway. Just thought I'd say that not all churches do baptism by pouring water on the head.
My second cousin had to have our pastor sprinkle water on her head because she is disabled.

[Aravis Kenobi]

My second cousin had to have our pastor sprinkle water on her head because she is disabled.

Well yeah. There are exceptions, but most are done by complete immersion.

[The First Joke]

Maybe I've missed the point here, but I seem to disagree with just about everything I've read. This baptism of blood thing really bothers me because it tells me that if I die for the faith, then I have bought my own way into Heaven and that means Christ's death on the cross was neither sufficient nor enough to cover me. I paid for it with my OWN blood, I worked for it, I earned it so God HAS to give it to me.

The faith I have is in accordance with Ephesians 2:8-9 that it is a "FREE" gift "NOT OF WORKS SO THAT NO MAN CAN BOAST" Nobody deserves it, nobody can pay for it. If I have to get wet or something then I have done some work of my own to buy it. The thief on the cross died that day and was accepted into Paradise by Christ's own words. His blood wasn't spilled for any faith, but for being a thief. He did not submit himself to any other to have water poured on Him, the statement of his acceptance came at his death. He certainly couldn't have desired baptism, because Jesus never me