Witchcraft+Christianity is...

[Skandar's Girl]

That's my point would it be right having comlete magic and complete christianity combined? Please answer and if you can tell me why!

[Skandar's Girl]

Actually Hannah uh i do not think so... but o well :p :rolleyes:

[Saruman]

Coming from a Christian standpoint, I say no, and it is largely because of what Jesus said in His sermon on the mount:

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon" (Mt. 6:24).

God leaves us no room for compromise. We can take up our cross and follow Him, daily giving praise to Him for His wonderful love for us, or we can choose to go our own way and leave Him out of the picture. In what way are you going to please God or express that you love Him if you engage in dark practices such as witchcraft, wizardry, magic, etc., practices that are condemned by God? You cannot serve both God and mammon. There can only be one master passion in a person's life.

That's my two cents on the topic.

[inkspot]

I agree with Curumo, if you are asking whether a person can be a Christ follower and also practice witchcraft, no.

[Parthian King]

In the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, witchcraft is condemned as sinful. In the Old Testament theocracy (=rule of God), witches were condemned to death. This was because witchcraft was seen as rebellion against the direct government of God in Israel, like idolatry or other severe sins that subverted the nation (in this respect, Israel wasn’t any different from other nations that put to death those who rebelled against the ruling god or gods; they just had higher standards). In the New Testament, witchcraft is condemned along with a bunch of other sins, like lying and fornication and hatred (for example; see Galatians 5 for a fuller list).

Witchcraft is bad and incompatible with Christianity because it basically means taking the reins of control away from God. The witch (male or female) seeks to manipulate the natural order around them—their “world”—to suit their own desires. Christians, on the other hand, submit to the natural order that God in His wisdom and goodness has created around them, even as they recognize the world is fallen and they need strength and intervention from God in the midst of it all. Put another way, the Christian prays submissively to God, while the witch seeks to answer their own prayers. Witchcraft by its very nature cuts the sovereign God out of the equation and reduces Him, at very best, to some sort of a mascot.

Of course, cutting God out of the picture is like pretending there’s no sky over your head. God condemns witchcraft (and all sin) not because it harms Him directly, but because it harms us by separating us from Him. He is quite secure as Lord of the universe; we are anything but secure. He refuses to accept our dabbling in witchcraft because in the end it is an eternally deadly pretense. His condemnation of it is better interpreted as a surgeon who wants to cut out a cancer than as a jailor who restricts is and throws away the key. Who says, “Hey doctor, why are you being so intolerant about the cancer I’ve got? Don’t tumors have the right to live, too?” God is serious about these things because He wants what is best for us.

Witchcraft is a lie, and in the end it is a thief because as we practice it, it cuts us off from all God would have done for us, which is more than we could ever imagine if we had a million wishes and a thousand years to spend them in. Of course, the worst thing that it does is that it keeps us from the greatest thing of all: Knowing HIM.

[Gryphon]

When you do witchcraft, you do something by your own will, as Christians we arent supposed to do that. We're supposed to lean on God's will.

Leviticus 20:6-8 says

"6 I will laso turn against those who commit spiritual prostitution by putting their trust in mediums or in those who consult the spirits of the dead. I will cut them off from the community. 7 So set yourselves apart to be holy, for I am the Lord your God. 8 Keep all my decrees by putting them into practice, for I am the Lord who makes you holy."

If we really were "completely Christian" we wouldnt practice witchcraft because "complete Christians" love God too much to disobey God. If you ask God to accept your witchcraft thats like asking God "I know you hate sin but could you accept mine, could you not be so one sided about sin?" No, he doesnt work that way. He also doesnt want you to be lukewarm,

Revalation 3:16 says

"So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I am going to vomit you out of My mouth."

EWW! well, that means you have to choose, will it be His way or your way? There is no inbetween in Heaven and Hell. Your going to have to choose. Oh, and by the way, God will fulfill you EVERY need

Matthew 6:25 says

"This is why I tell you: Don't worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Isn't life more than food and the body more than clothing?"

He wants a relationshipwith you, and its the greatest love that is above all the things of this Earth. He loves you so much and as His deciple, i love you too girl!

[Goldenrod22]

Hi! :)
WOW! I am so shocked that I'm not alone about witchcraft and sorcery being seen as immoral, un-Christian, and evil!
This is great.
This is where I think that it is so politically incorrect nowadays to believe that the merge of magick (as in Harry Potter) and fantasy is not a problem. It is!
We are drowning in the increased number of children's books focusing on occult/fantasy combined together, with a dash of so-called Christianity thrown in to boot.
I think that the death of good fairy tales as we know them (think C.S. Lewis) is partially because of the introduction and acceptance of anti-Christian themes, like sorcery.
Have you heard of Simon the sorcerer? He turned from his evil practices to follow Christ!
He did not use his spell books to help Christ with His miracles, you know! :p
What C.S. Lewis knew that we have not grasped in newer novels is that the greatest magic of all is NOT magic, but God! He is able to destroy any claims that the evil magic has on this Earth, Middle Earth, or Narnia.

[Blount@]

I agree with everbody you shouldn'y do witchcraft! :mad:

[inkspot]

Good to see you posting again, GR! I hope all is well with you.

I never denied that witchcraft is incompatible with Christianity.

I do deny that the "witchcraft" in Harry Potter is anything but a fantasy story. I don't think, as you know, the HP stories are evil ...

[Blount@]

I wasn't aloud to see the first HP because of my grandmom because it had witchcraft and i tell her ,hello SAnta Clause is magic look at that. :p

[Aslan's Son]

Christianity and magic don't mix...in my view anyway. The Bible condemns it and those that practice it unless they repent of it. Revalation 22:22 14-15 says:

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outsiders are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."

I think practicing the occult is very, very dangerous, not just because, as a Christian, I find it wrong, but while a witch may think he/she are contacting what they want and/or controlling it, there are things out there that could be more dangerous than they'll ever know.

[Dernhelm]

Witchcraft (the kind condemmed in the Bible) is basically devil worship. The power to do (real) witchcraft is given by Satan. If you worship Satan, you cannot worship God also. If you worship the devil, you will go to hell. If you worship God, to Heaven; you can't do both!

Magic in stories is different...even in the HP books, I think, though I can see why people are uncomfortable with it; for one thing, it's set in our world...which means they are under God's command, in our world, not to practice witchcraft. However, it is pretend. And what they do is not really witchcraft; they do not use power given by the devil, they use powders and spells out of magic books...it's just pretend!

:)

[PrinceOfTheWest]

I wanted to drop a couple of thoughts here, just to get some response.

First off, I've always been surprised at people - particularly parents - who object vehemently to the Harry Potter books yet allow a television in their home. I've stated my views on Harry Potter elsewhere, but can understand the arguments of those who don't see things my way. But while I've never seen any youngster turn to satanism as a result of reading Harry Potter, I have seen young people turn to rebellion, disrespect, profane speech, unbelief, provocative dress and conduct, and obsession with material possessions based on what they saw on the television screen. And I'm not talking about shows like Sex and the City, either, I'm talking about normal prime-time "family" fare. I think that to some degree, the Enemy has made use of the whole Harry Potter conflict to his advantage. Like a magician who distracts an audience with one hand while executing his trick with the other, I think that he's got many people focusing and flustering about the Harry Potter books while he's slipping poison into their household via cable or dish. If people want to object to Harry Potter, fine, but don't do it while permitting television.

A second thought, and this is more subtle. From the Scriptures, it is clear that sorcery is forbidden, but it seems that there are two reasons for this. One is the interaction with spiritual beings in rebellion from God, but the other is the reason for interacting with these spiritual beings - which is to wrest control from natural processes and impose your will on them. The classic example here would be the Renaissance alchemist's quest to turn lead into gold. According to the presuppositions of alchemists, this would be a question of taking something (lead) which shares an "essence" (metallic) with gold, and "realigning" it (somehow). Judeo-Christian teaching objects to this not only because of who you have to deal with to supposedly obtain these powers, but for the very idea of trying to change something from what God made it.

Now, here's the part worth considering: in light of that basic attitude, is there much difference between the magician and the technologist? Is not the same attitude underlying them both?

One might point out that a magician would be attempting to disrupt natural processes via supernatural means, a technologist is trying to use the natural order of things to accomplish his ends. This is certainly true, and the reason that Christianity is the father of true science. Understading that things have a God-ordained order and follow His laws of nature was the basis for breaking free of a view of nature that held it to be capricious and at the whim of who-knows-what (gods, water sprites, fate, whatever).

But this still leaves the question of the attitude with which the technologist approaches nature. Is he looking to cooperate with it, to enhance it? Or is he looking to subjugate it, to dominate and subdue it via his manipulation of the natural laws? Lewis put his finger right on this in his masterpiece That Hideous Strength when he pointed out that the idolatrous materialists running the NICE had by their techonological arrogance (embodied in the vile Filostrato) spurned the idea of living within God's order and sought utter dominion of it. This powerful and poetic passage says it well:
The Poison was brewed in these West lands but it has spat itself everywhere by now. However far you went you would find the machines, the crowded cities, the empty thrones, the false writings, the barren beds: men maddened with false promises and soured with true miseries, worshipping the iron works of their own hands, cut off from Earth their mother and from the Father in heaven. That Hideous Strength, "They Have Pulled Down Deep Heaven" (emphasis added)
So what am I saying? Am I equating technology with sorcery? Is starting my Saturn the equivalent of holding a seance? No, I'm not saying that, but I have been doing a lot of thinking recently. Clearly sorcery is forbidden for at least one reason (demonic interaction), but are there other things to be wary of? If so, are there other avenues than demonic interaction that can be ways to those same things? I believe Lewis thought so, and for that reason I'm getting more and more wary of unrestricted technology. Any thoughts?

On another aspect of Lewis' prophetic ability: consider this description of the depraved people of Sulva:
On this side [of the Moon], the womb is barren and the marriages cold. There dwell and accursed people, full of pride and lust. There when a young man takes a maiden in marriage, they do not lie together, but each lies with a cunningly fashioned image of the other, made to move and to be warm by devilish arts, for real flesh will not please them, they are so dainty (delicati) in their dreams of lust. Their real children they fabricate by vile arts in a secret place.
Now read this article (http://www.planetout.com/news/article-print.html?2001/01/19/5):

My brothers and sisters, we teeter on the brink.

[Ephinie]

Wow... that was very insightful. I normally would have something much deeper to add than just this, but it's late and I'm tired. So I'll be brief. Another thing to consider with certain kinds of technology: Think of how lazy it makes us when we grow accustomed to it.

And this place sure has grown since the last time I was here. I wonder if anyone still remembers me?

[Sezzie87]

Now, here's the part worth considering: in light of that basic attitude, is there much difference between the magician and the technologist? Is not the same attitude underlying them both?

for that reason I'm getting more and more wary of unrestricted technology. Any thoughts?

Yup, I totally get what you're saying, and the fact is, we live in a fallen world, the world we live in gets more and more corrupted as the years go on, and at the end of the day it's all down to Adam. The thing we've gotta be wary of, like you're saying, is the part we play in all of this. Yes, there are many ways in which people contribute to the detioration of the world, and I totally agree that this technological 'free for all' is making things so much worse.

The thing that bothers me so much is that fact that people want to be in control more and more. This is what I believe to be the underlying problem to every kind of evil... Just as satan tempted Eve in the garden with the idea of being 'in control, like a god', he's doing the same with the world now... just look how far everything's gone, people have the ability to have abortions and 'play God' in that repsect, they ahev the ability to make the lives of others a misery, and they have the desire for power and domination over others... another form of control. The whole issue of witchcraft is just another factor which adds to this accelerating hunger for power... people have 'discovered' ways to use a supernatural power (i e witchcraft) for what they believe is their own good, and in actual fact, they're doing more damage than they know

The clever thing about all this is that people can't see what they're getting into, they think it's just harmless fantasy, but supporting something (even just by reading it) which clearly has roots in the occult (J K Rowling did a lot of reasearch into it to write HP), opens doors that should NEVER be opened - giving the devil a foothold - the best form of control is rooted in deception...

I'm not saying HP isn't a good story, I just know what da,age it can do without people suspecting a thing... get what I'm saying?

[Sunrise]

PrinceoftheWest, that is one frippin' scary article.

A very good point on the television issue. I have often thought that many Christians jump on the bandwagon of hot-button topics like HP, while being oblivious to the worldly messages being broadcast into their homes daily. To be fair, a lot of HP's most virulent critics probably are the type of Christians who also block a lot of other objectionable things out of their lives - at least, I hope so, or they are engaging in flagrant hypocrisy.

Here's a case in point. Some years ago I flipped on the Disney channel and watched a few minutes of a show called "Halloweentown" - a made-for-tv movie clearly geared toward kids from the 9-to-14 set. It featured an average, "normal" family with three kids, getting a surprise visit from Grandma, who proceeded, against the parents' wishes, to reveal the family's true origens to the kids - that they were really a family of witches and supernatural beings from the mysterious "Halloweentown", a place populated by witches, ghosts, vampires, goblins, and all the usual denizens of the genre.

Red flags began popping up for me all over the place; the first when Grandma presents the kids with their Halloween costumes, and the teenage daughter, holding out hers, gasps in delight, "Ooh, wow! A Wiccan costume!" (My thought: Excuse me?! It's not just a witch costume, it's a WICCA costume? That would be a religion, would it not? I wonder if Disney would consider showing a film in which some kid was excited to receive a Bible? What exactly are they pushing here?)

Then there was a moment when Grandma, before giving the big revelation, reads the kids a bedtime story whose front cover features an illustration of a young witch riding a broomstick across the night sky. One of the boys pipes up that, "Wow, the girl in the picture looks just like you!" to his older sister, who glances hopefully at Grandma and then sighs, "Oh, that would be nice. But there's nothing special about me." (Oh, wonderful. Let's teach girls that if they feel ordinary and mundane, they can become special and unique by becoming witches!)

This was where I stopped watching. This was also when I lost any lingering faith I had that the Disney company had any particular notion of what constituted family-friendly quality entertainment.

It is precisely this type of entertainment that is, I think, far more insidious than the Harry Potter craze. Again, people who object to Potter probably aren't letting their kids watch "Halloweentown" either, but millions of parents who allow their kids free reign to the television are exposing their kids to this kind of subtle indoctrination - from Disney, of all things, but assuredly from a myriad of other directions as well.

We haven't had cable in our house for years, and are expecting our first child this fall. I look forward to introducing my child to the richness of creation without having to undo all the damage done by a steady diet of materialism, greed, pride, lust, shallowness, lewdness, and violence from the tv. Those things are plenty present in human nature already without accepting and encouraging them via worldy agendas disguised as entertainment.

[QA48]

Isn't Christianity + witchcraft = Wicca? just my two cents.

P.s. I, in no way encourage the pratice of witchcraft and wicca. :cool:

[Sezzie87]

I look forward to introducing my child to the richness of creation without having to undo all the damage done by a steady diet of materialism, greed, pride, lust, shallowness, lewdness, and violence from the tv. Those things are plenty present in human nature already without accepting and encouraging them via worldy agendas disguised as entertainment.

Yeah I agree, people in ancient times managed just fine without all this technology we have... I wouldn't say they were any worse of, o at all unaware of the richness of creation... in fact without all the distractions technology gives us nowadays I'm pretty sure they wouldve been much stronger, much more dependent on nature, and I'd say that's a pretty healthy thing... after all, we were designed by God to have this amazing relationship with nature, and with Him...

[Sunrise]

I don't know a lot about Wicca, but I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with Christianity.

For one thing, I believe they worship a "goddess" figure and eschew any sort of a "masculine" God idea.

Besides, as has already been demonstrated in this thread, witchcraft + Christianity = an abomination. You can't mix oil and water.

[Sezzie87]

As someone said earlier, you can't serve two masters... it just doesn't work like that - God's my master, so I know exactly who the enemy is :)

[EveningStar]

Actually they do not eschew a masculine God concept. They believe that God is the pair of the White Lady and her Consort.

The old idea of a god couple is ancient and stems from the concept that all life on Earth is the result of sexual fertility of one sort or another.

Bel and Ashteroth / Isis and Osiris / Baal and Astarte / Lady and the Consort / etc etc etc...

These religions are all supposed to have one common ancestor. The majority of them use the aging and death of the male and his rebirth in an annual cycle to explain the passage of the seasons. Spring...the woman...grieves for her lover until his return.

The discipline tracing the rise of such religions and their similar myths is called "Comparative Religion".

[Sunrise]

Yeah I agree, people in ancient times managed just fine without all this technology we have... I wouldn't say they were any worse of, o at all unaware of the richness of creation... in fact without all the distractions technology gives us nowadays I'm pretty sure they wouldve been much stronger, much more dependent on nature, and I'd say that's a pretty healthy thing... after all, we were designed by God to have this amazing relationship with nature, and with Him...

Don't get me wrong, I don't think technology is evil in and of itself. We can thank it for our current long lifespans and many of our comforts (like, oh, running water and toilets! ;) ).

But I do think we've lost the ability, in a lot of ways, to slow down and commune with God as He intended. I think that's one of the reasons "nature" religions have regained a foothold in modern culture...people want to reconnect with nature, and they mistakenly associate Christianity with the Western drive to dominate and control nature, so they do a 180 and delve off into paganism.

[Sunrise]

Actually they do not eschew a masculine God concept. They believe that God is the pair of the White Lady and her Consort.

The old idea of a god couple is ancient and stems from the concept that all life on Earth is the result of sexual fertility of one sort or another.

Bel and Ashteroth / Isis and Osiris / Baal and Astarte / Lady and the Consort / etc etc etc...

These religions are all supposed to have one common ancestor. The majority of them use the aging and death of the male and his rebirth in an annual cycle to explain the passage of the seasons. Spring...the woman...grieves for her lover until his return.

The discipline tracing the rise of such religions and their similar myths is called "Comparative Religion".

Ah, thanks for the clarification, Chakal. :o

The matter stands, however, that Wicca is not just Christianity with witchcraft added in. That may be how "The Mists of Avalon" portrayed it, but in reality it is an entirely different religion.

[Phils Girl]

so you are saying that Harrry Potter is evil because he is using witchcraft. If that is what you are saying then i so agree but i don't know. So you tell me if that is what you are getting at or not.

[Sezzie87]

so you are saying that Harrry Potter is evil because he is using witchcraft. If that is what you are saying then i so agree but i don't know. So you tell me if that is what you are getting at or not.

Yep that's what I'm getting at... it's the roots of it and the matter of whether we are going to compromise even just a bit, just for a bit of a mental escape for a while, which is essentially what fantasy it

[EveningStar]

I also stated this in another thread, but I'll cross post it.

In Harry Potter, it is clearly stated that witches are a different species from the mortals that look like them. In that sense you either ARE or you AREN'T. There is no more of a "come on" to kids to "become" a witch any more than Peter Cottontail or Watership Down can encourage you to "become" a rabbit.

You could not become a badger either, which is a real tragedy because you all know I'm cute as a button (Ask me mum!) and alas you'll have to go through life just as you are.... ;)

[Sezzie87]

Hehe that's quite funny :D

On a more serious note though, people actually CAN become witches... I think it's biologically impossible for someone to become a rabbit... :p

[Malacandra]

Yep that's what I'm getting at... it's the roots of it and the matter of whether we are going to compromise even just a bit, just for a bit of a mental escape for a while, which is essentially what fantasy it

I disagree, though. Magic as in Harry Potter is just something that certain talented individuals are able to do, by following certain principles similar in their way to the laws of physics and chemistry. The spells aren't performed by appeal to the will of any Satan-type creature to get them done; they're just done by "wizards" because that is what "wizards" can do.

Now as to Rowling's research into the "occult" (a marvellous scare-quote that can be very useful in discouraging argument) I should say that she is guilty of no more than seasoning her stories with bits and pieces of things that have been reputed to be associated with magic over the years. I strongly doubt she had any access to the theory and practice of "real" magic. :) For instance, popular supposition in the Middle Ages attributed a number of queer properties to the mandrake root, including that it uttered a killing scream when it was pulled from the ground; and it is superstitions like that which Rowling uses in her stories.

As PrinceoftheWest and some other posters have pointed out, fretting about not letting HP in the house while tolerating many more real and everyday forms of corruption would be a case of straining out gnats and swallowing camels. Most of us have far more pressing worries than being drawn into Satanism via the medium (hah!) of fantasy novels or RPGs - and Auld Horny would far rather we spent our time obsessing about the unlikely and ignoring the commonplace.

[Malacandra]

Hehe that's quite funny :D

On a more serious note though, people actually CAN become witches... I think it's biologically impossible for someone to become a rabbit... :p

You can't become a Harry Potter type wizard, though. You couldn't even if you were in the Harry Potter world.

[Phils Girl]

Yep that's what I'm getting at... it's the roots of it and the matter of whether we are going to compromise even just a bit, just for a bit of a mental escape for a while, which is essentially what fantasy it


well i totaly agree because Harry Potter is pure evil and yeah

[Sezzie87]

If it's so harmless and has no effect whatsoever on anyone... then why is it that when the books were first out they were advertising play sets for children, to practice divination and spells and the like... isn't that just playing with fire? Who knows where it would lead

we go on in society about how video games lead to violence in real life, well what's so different about these products that are sold in relation to HP?

[EveningStar]

Let's settle it this way. If you can't handle the books without damage, DON'T. If the books are diverting to you and won't harm you, DO.

As it says in the writings of Paul, do not eat flesh at the house of your brother if he feels it is sin, for in doing so you might lead him into ruin. In other words, respect others' opinions about such things if they are well meaning. Obviously you are doing what you do out of piety and I respect that. By all means continue to do what you feel is the right thing and God will richly bless you. In every way except making you a badger, but hopefully life will still be worth living. :D

[Sezzie87]

Settle?! Why would I want to settle it? hehe :D

No it's ok... yeah I do agree there

any other ideas about it out there anywhere? :p

[Malacandra]

If it's so harmless and has no effect whatsoever on anyone... then why is it that when the books were first out they were advertising play sets for children, to practice divination and spells and the like... isn't that just playing with fire? Who knows where it would lead

we go on in society about how video games lead to violence in real life, well what's so different about these products that are sold in relation to HP?

Well, but it takes a little more than arguing "who knows where it would lead" to make out a meaningful case. (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/slipslop.html)

My sons like playing with toy lightsabres. I guess I'd better watch what they do, or they may grow up to be real Jedi and then I'd never have five minutes' peace. Now if it were a playset for Satanism Lite you'd possibly have a point, but up to now it's just toys depicting fictional wizards and make-believe magic. (I think it's Screwtape who says something about half the art of temptation being to get people to make the biggest fuss about that which presents the least threat.) What next? You going to throw the Snow White video in the bin? Or Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty - that's worse, because it depicts witches (oh, they call them fairy godmothers, but we're not so easily deceived, are we?) in a ridiculously positive light.

[Sezzie87]

That wasn't my point... if we're arguing purely about content then LOTR and Narnia would be out too... I think I made the point before, it blurs the line between good and evil - how can you possibly fight evil with yet more evil?

(no offence by the way... :) )

[Sunrise]

This might be getting somewhat off-topic. The thread is about witchcraft and whether it is compatible with Christianity. Whether HP is appropriate reading material for Christians has already been debated ad-nauseum, and there's a very good thread on it here:

Clicky. (http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showthread.php?t=606&page=1&pp=10)

I recommend it. Both sides of the issue are presented very well.

[inkspot]

That's my point would it be right having comlete magic and complete christianity combined? Please answer and if you can tell me why!
I agree, everyone should go over to the HP Thread to discuss HP, although everyone here has made many valid points. The original intent of this Thread is found in the quote above, and I think many have answered this:

"Magic" in the real world is forbidden to Christians. It is a sin to try to manipulate the natural world (or anything!) through sorcery. So there can be no combination of real-world magic and Christianity.

Now, I understand the roots of the word sorcery and pharmacy are the same. Has anyone heard this? If so, perhaps worse than HP is the actual use of many mind-altering or mood-altering drugs in prescription and non-prescription forms? I don't mean an aspirin, or your blood pressure medicine, but maybe addiction to pain medicine or something like this is forbidden by the same commands which forbid sorcery?

[Sezzie87]

Thats a really interesting point... I didn't know that.

I don't really know to be honest, I'd have to mull it over in my head before making any decision about that :rolleyes:

[Sunrise]

Now, I understand the roots of the word sorcery and pharmacy are the same. Has anyone heard this? If so, perhaps worse than HP is the actual use of many mind-altering or mood-altering drugs in prescription and non-prescription forms? I don't mean an aspirin, or your blood pressure medicine, but maybe addiction to pain medicine or something like this is forbidden by the same commands which forbid sorcery?

Interesting point, Inkspot. Especially if you consider the current rage of "natural, herbal remedies" for all life's maladies. Whether or not many of them actually work (I have the feeling most of it is snake oil and quackery), we do know that many herbs have legitimate medicinal properties. And centuries ago before modern medicine, they were all that was available to treat illness.

Maybe that's why the words have the same root, if that is indeed the case.

This is one of my points of contention with those who want to say that herbology is witchcraft. Herbology is merely the study of herbs. If witches want to use that knowlege for magical purposes, that does not negate the validity of the study in and of itself.

[onlymystory]

Going off of Sunrise's ideas on herbology I think one can apply the same sort of idea against many aspects of magic. Note, I don't think magic and Christianity are compatible completely in our world. But parts of the magic world can be. The herbology example is one, astronomy/astrology is another. I know we are not focusing too much on HP but I think JKR does a nice job of comparing this between the centaurs and Madame Trelawney. And the 3 wise men of the Bible were studiers of the stars. The problem seems to arise not so much when we learn about or practice some of these things but when we twist what is good into something evil. Everything out there God created which makes it good. Unfortunately we humans twist it and turn it into something bad far too often. I hope that makes sense.

[Sezzie87]

The problem seems to arise not so much when we learn about or practice some of these things but when we twist what is good into something evil. Everything out there God created which makes it good. Unfortunately we humans twist it and turn it into something bad far too often. I hope that makes sense.

I'm not sure I totally understand ur point... ru saying that everything comes from God but evil was man's creation?

(sorry to be a bit slow lol :) )

[onlymystory]

I'm not sure I totally understand ur point... ru saying that everything comes from God but evil was man's creation?

(sorry to be a bit slow lol :) )

no problem. I wasn't too sure if that would come across right. I was saying that everything was originally good. But that evil was Satan's distortion of good through mankind. For example, when I walk into a room, to make it dark I have to turn off the light. I can't bring dark into a room. I have to take the light that is already there and take it away. Sin is the same way. Lying is not a new thing. Satan didn't invent a lie. Rather he took truth and twisted it. God is truth and so Satan takes what is truth and just twists it a little. He can't bring in a lie, Satan just has to distort what God has stated is truth.

Does that help?

[Sezzie87]

Aaaah yes I get it now :D thankyou

Yeah I agree... as some famous philosopher said sometime somewhere (a level philosophy long forgotten even though it was only a yr ago hehe)... evil isn't a substance, it's a deprivation - i.e, it comes form a lack of good, just like cold is only a lack of heat, not something in itself

[Aslan's Son]

well i totaly agree because Harry Potter is pure evil and yeah

How can you say it's evil? Have you even read Harry Potter? If not, than how can you say it's bad? I personally think anyone who thinks it's bad should read them first before making any accusations. Anyway, I'm not going to say much, as that particular topic belongs in another thread, but anyway...for one, J. K. Rowling is a Presybeterian Christian in the Church of Scotland (she said so herself in an interview a couple years back)-if HP was evil, why would she have written them? There's Christian symbolism in HP too-everyone says religion isn't mentioned in HP, but there are references to it, none the less. For instance, Harry was christened-a Christian practice. Besides that, Lily and James Potter sacrificed themselves to protect Harry, much like Christ sacrificed himself for us (not allegory like Narnia, but symbolism). The witchcraft/wizardry thing is just fantasy-if HP is bad, then why not condemn fairy tales like Cinderella or Snow White? They use magic too. I'm not trying to rant/be mean or anything, so please don't take it like that. :) Just trying to throw in my two cents.

[unleavened]

For example, when I walk into a room, to make it dark I have to turn off the light. I can't bring dark into a room. I have to take the light that is already there and take it away. Sin is the same way. Lying is not a new thing. Satan didn't invent a lie. Rather he took truth and twisted it. God is truth and so Satan takes what is truth and just twists it a little. He can't bring in a lie, Satan just has to distort what God has stated is truth.
Oooh! That's good. I understood the concept (from reading screwtape letters) but I'd never heard that illistration. I like it. I shall have to put that in my tool box.

[Dernhelm]

I think Onlymystory's comment is also rather relevent to the technolegy/magic (sp? :o) problem (see Prince of the West's post). God commanded us to "fill the earth and subdue it"...I think technolegy is part of that...it's only when we use it for bad things (see PoW's link...) that it's wrong.

IMHO :)

[onlymystory]

I shared this story in the evolution thread before it was closed but I think ya'll will appreciate it in light of the idea of using God's creation but recognizing that it is his creation and should not be tampered with lightly.

Two scientists had been working for years to find a way to create a human being. Finally they found a solution. The two went to God and proposed a contest. See who could make the best human. God agreed and they set a date. On the day of the contest the three gathered at the site. God graciously allowed the men to start. One of the scientists reached down and picked up a handful of dirt. Before he could start the process, God leaned over and said "Excuse me, get your own dirt."

Not completely on point, but following along with the idea of POTW and dernhelm in that we are to use God's creation for good not to prove our superiority. Please don't use that story to turn this into an evolution discussion.

[Christine Marie]

From personal experience I can assure you that being involved in *any* sort of dark/pagan art is never a good idea.
In my mid-teenage years, when I was agnostic, I got involved with pagan practices such as channelling and everyone I knew who participated had bad things happen to them, including me. There is no proof that they occurred because of those practices but I strongly believe that was the cause judging by how soon these things happened since we got involved in the practices (craft).

Many pagans/wiccans and other spiritualists believe that they're not doing anything wrong since they're not calling upon "bad" energies and spirits but that is impossible to do. Once you get involved in channelling and/or worship of pagans/spirits you’re allowing negative forces into your life/soul even if you can’t see it yourself.

[inkspot]

Thank you for this post, from your firsthand experience, Christine Marie! I happen to be a believer in spirits -- bad ones and good ones. And I think any practice which calls on any spirits to do your bidding is simply opening your life to the intervention of spirits who are not under your control.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Indeed, my tradition (Roman Catholicism) has long warned against any such things as Ouija boards, seances (even "fun" ones of the type done at slumber parties), automatic writing, unguided meditation (i.e. meditation that just "opens" somebody up, as opposed to meditation on something about God), and the like. Unlike the materialists who dismissed such things as meaningless, Catholic tradition has always recognized the danger and warned against it. Christine Marie, I'm glad the Lord rescued you from that!

My father tells an interesting story. One family in his prayer group in New Mexico had a daughter that started having terrifying dreams and hearing things at night. They were starting to get worried about her sanity and had her examined by mental health professionals, but it did not help. As a desperation measure, they asked their parish priest to come pray for her and her bedroom, etc. (we have rites for such things) He did, but as he was leaving the house he passed by a trinket shelf on which were set some kachina dolls. He asked, "What are those doing here?" The parents explained that they had picked them up at a souvenir stand as an item of local interest and incorporated them into their southwestern decor. The priest told them to remove and destroy them immediately, and explained that kachina were originally familiar demons of a tribe or area, and men would dress up like them to summon them. The family did this, and the dreams and hearing stopped.

Odd, eh?

[inkspot]

You may think this is freaky, but my brother's house is all southwestern decor with lots of kachinas. (Which I love, being from the southwest myself, and have always loved the Indian lore, dances, dolls, etc.) Once when my brother's family was moving, they stored a bunch of stuff at my house, including these tall kachinas, which were stashed in my bedroom. One night, I awakened from a sound sleep, and I could have sworn the kachina was hovering above the bed, right in my face! I screamed and switched on the lights, but of course the silly thing was in its right place, hadn't moved at all ... probably just a nightmare, but who can say?

In his book, I Give You Authority, Charles Kraft, although a Protestant, advocates cleansing any such artifacts by speaking specific blessings over them to drive out any lingering spirits. And he isn't a nut, he's a professor at Fuller Theological Seminary.

He also says, whenever you speak, the spirit world is listening, so be careful to speak only positive, life-affirming, God-honring words, as when you speak other nonsense, the spirits may take it as an invitation to bring the very curses you utter upon you. (And not even curses, but just nonsense like, "I'm so dumb! Why did I do that?!" - better to say, "I'm so smart, it's totally unlike me to do something like that!" which is more positive and life-affirming, and offers no foothold for any spirits to plague you about being dumb ...)

I'll shut up now!

[Christine Marie]

Christine Marie, I'm glad the Lord rescued you from that!
Me too! :D

[Christine Marie]

In his book, I Give You Authority, Charles Kraft, although a Protestant, advocates cleansing any such artifacts by speaking specific blessings over them to drive out any lingering spirits. And he isn't a nut, he's a professor at Fuller Theological Seminary.

He also says, whenever you speak, the spirit world is listening, so be careful to speak only positive, life-affirming, God-honring words, as when you speak other nonsense, the spirits may take it as an invitation to bring the very curses you utter upon you. (And not even curses, but just nonsense like, "I'm so dumb! Why did I do that?!" - better to say, "I'm so smart, it's totally unlike me to do something like that!" which is more positive and life-affirming, and offers no foothold for any spirits to plague you about being dumb ...)

That's interesting and makes sense, actually.
Trying to prevent any form of negativity/hate is always a good idea since no good can come from either.
Even medical researchers have proven that saying positive things and not focusing on the negative has a positive effect on both our long term physical and mental health, which is why people who meditate/pray tend to have longer, healthy, lives

[umbrellaxscenexcore]

r u guys talking about "red Indians" aka native americans?? well anyways they r so cool..they get to go "WOOOOOOOOOOOOH!"

[Gibby]

What's a "red Indian"? Do you mean the term, "redskin" which actually I believe is considered a racist term ? (http://www.aics.org/mascot/redskins.html)

[EveningStar]

Red indian as compared to Indians from India who never smoke peace pipes and don't live in teepees and hardly EVER say "How!" :D

Racially they are "amerindian" and usually we Americans call them "native americans" though the Canadians refer to them collectively as "first nations" which is interesting and mostly true.

[Gibby]

I have to share this, Chakal. My father-in-law researched my geneology, and I am a descendent of Massasoit (http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761557553/Massasoit.html), the chief of the Wampanoag. (pilgrims/native americans era) He had a son, Philip Pokanoket who had a daughter, Anne Philip, who married John Starkweather, and the line continues on to eventually, me! But other documents state that Philip Pokanoket was actually Massasoit's brother. Anyway, back on topic. Sorry.

[Gryphon]

I happen to be a believer in spirits -- bad ones and good ones.
The only good spirit is the Holy Spirit ;) Anyway, congrats Christine Marie, and thank you for posting!

[inkspot]

The only good spirit is the Holy Spirit ;) Anyway, congrats Christine Marie, and thank you for posting!
By good spirits, I meant, if you will, angels, the "ministering spirits" of Hebrews 1:14. Although it should be noted, we cannot (and should not try to) influence an angel to do our bidding any more than we should try to command evil ones.

[Gryphon]

i can see what you mean, however God has given us dominion over them.

1 Corinthians 6:3 states

"6:3Don't you realize that we Christians will judge angels? So you should surely be able to resolve ordinary disagreements here on earth."~NLT

we have power over them and we can command them to do things here (but should be within limits) for example, casting out demons, or evil spirits.

but you are right, we shouldnt command angels to do our bidding or ask them for help, after all I'd rather go to the King than the servant for help :D

[inkspot]

In the future we will judge angels, but I see no place in the Bible where a believer commanded an angel, nor prayed to one. I think angels are ministering spirits God sends to us, not spirits we can command to go somewhere else. We can ask God to send His angels to guard us or others, but I don't think we can tell the angels what to do ...

[unleavened]

Well, there are several accounts in scripture of the disciples comanding spirits out of people, but under the authority of Jesus' name did they respond. I don't think we could order angels to do our bidding. They do God's bidding alone.

[Gryphon]

unleavened is right. we cant cast out demons, but God empowers us and gives us the authority to do so.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

I don't think we could order angels to do our bidding. They do God's bidding alone.Actually, Ink is quoting Scripture (1 Cor 6:3). However, St. Paul's reference is almost certainly to some time in the future, when creation has been redeemed. The truth is that we don't really know what is meant by that verse. Also, in Scriptural language, "judge" means "rule" (as in the Judges), not necessarily one who passes judgement like a judge in a court. In the redeemed world, our relations with the spiritual beings will probably be like something we can't currently envision.

[Rhyanidd]

Um...don't know if this verse has been stated before however I believe that you cannot be a christian and think witchcraft is ok...here is the verse I have to back me up
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; idolatry and WITCHCRAFT; hatred discord jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenss, orgies and the like. Galations 5 20-21

[Saruman]

unleavened is right. we cant cast out demons, but God empowers us and gives us the authority to do so.

Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the Lord of hosts.

Zech. 4:6

[QA48]

Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the Lord of hosts.

Zech. 4:6

*Raises her hands up in the air* AMEN!

[Skandar's Girl]

I don't think it would

[Son of Adam]

Although I agree with those who say that Christianity and Witchcraft should not or cannot be combined, I was once a part of a debate in seminary on this subject and the professor made me take the side of believing that it can - just for learning purposes.

What I found was a few passages whereby God doesn't act against some famous Old Testament and New Testament figures for doing just that. Let me give three examples.

1. Joseph, the son Jacob. In the story where Jacobs brothers come to Egypt during a sever famine, they do not recognize Joseph although he does them. So Joseph has a cup planted in one of the brothers sacks of grain. Here are two passages out of Genesis 44 that give pause to think.

Gen 44:5 Why did you steal my master's silver cup? It is the one he drinks from, the one he uses for divination. You have committed a serious crime!'

Gen 44:15 and Joseph said, "What have you done? Didn't you know that a man in my position could find you out by practicing divination?"

So here we see Joseph admitting that he practices divination with the use of this cup. So no one gets confused, all the translations say the same.

2. Then in Daniel the King of Babylon is going to have all the seers, magicians, sorcerers, etc., put to death for their failure to interpret his dream. Yet Daniel steps in and tells the king not to do it, and Daniel is made the chief seer over all of them. In doing this, Daniel appears to go against the Law which states that "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

3. In the New Testament in Matthew 2 we see the story of the arrival of the wise men or more correctly Magi. The Greek Word here for wise men is "Magos" meaning 'magician' or 'sorcerer' or 'wizard'. These magi were apparently accepted by God as he warned them not to return by the way of Jerusalem but rather to go home by another route. Interestingly enough now warning about what they were was given to them.

As I and several other students a long time ago studied this we were unable to come up with answers and neither were any of the professors who also scratched their heads and wondered at these passages also. I must confess that up to that time I had read those passages numerous times and failed to see what they really said.

I'd be interested in hearing any thoughts some of you may have on this. I have been in the ministry for over 30 years now and have discussed this with many other pastors, evangelists, Professors, etc., and have come up with no satisfactory answers as to how these passages fit with other parts of Scripture that seem to indicate that these things are an abomination to the Lord.

[Ephinie]

Although I agree with those who say that Christianity and Witchcraft should not or cannot be combined, I was once a part of a debate in seminary on this subject and the professor made me take the side of believing that it can - just for learning purposes.

What I found was a few passages whereby God doesn't act against some famous Old Testament and New Testament figures for doing just that. Let me give three examples.

1. Joseph, the son Jacob. In the story where Jacobs brothers come to Egypt during a sever famine, they do not recognize Joseph although he does them. So Joseph has a cup planted in one of the brothers sacks of grain. Here are two passages out of Genesis 44 that give pause to think.

Gen 44:5 Why did you steal my master's silver cup? It is the one he drinks from, the one he uses for divination. You have committed a serious crime!'

Gen 44:15 and Joseph said, "What have you done? Didn't you know that a man in my position could find you out by practicing divination?"

So here we see Joseph admitting that he practices divination with the use of this cup. So no one gets confused, all the translations say the same.

2. Then in Daniel the King of Babylon is going to have all the seers, magicians, sorcerers, etc., put to death for their failure to interpret his dream. Yet Daniel steps in and tells the king not to do it, and Daniel is made the chief seer over all of them. In doing this, Daniel appears to go against the Law which states that "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

3. In the New Testament in Matthew 2 we see the story of the arrival of the wise men or more correctly Magi. The Greek Word here for wise men is "Magos" meaning 'magician' or 'sorcerer' or 'wizard'. These magi were apparently accepted by God as he warned them not to return by the way of Jerusalem but rather to go home by another route. Interestingly enough now warning about what they were was given to them.

As I and several other students a long time ago studied this we were unable to come up with answers and neither were any of the professors who also scratched their heads and wondered at these passages also. I must confess that up to that time I had read those passages numerous times and failed to see what they really said.

I'd be interested in hearing any thoughts some of you may have on this. I have been in the ministry for over 30 years now and have discussed this with many other pastors, evangelists, Professors, etc., and have come up with no satisfactory answers as to how these passages fit with other parts of Scripture that seem to indicate that these things are an abomination to the Lord.Wow, that's really interesting... Unfortunately, I don't have any thoughts on how that could fit in with other parts of Scripture. You said you've been in the ministry for over 30 years, and that's longer than I've even been alive.

I do have something to say on the subject of witchcraft in general. I'm taking a class this semester on the Inquisition in Spain and the New World. Among the millions of books we've been reading, two of them are Malleas Malificarum and Compendium Malificarum. These books are basically manuals for witch-hunting... they describe practises of witch craft in great, minute detail. They also go into detail about how to tell the difference between the work of witchcraft and the work of natural forces (such as when people use herbs to cure the sick, ect.). Now, obviously, we're not going to agree with a lot of things written on the subject during that time period. We know a lot more now, and we tend to pride ourselves on being less superstitious and so forth.

It is worth noting, however, that during this period, their idea of what witchcraft was specifically dealth with humans making pacts with demons. Every act of true witchcraft, according to these two sources, originates when the witch makes a deal with a demon to get revenge or whatever. If there is no demon directly involved, then there is no witchcraft. Furthermore, they are very clear that the purpose of all demons and witches who have willing interactions with them is to bring harm to the human race in general and certain people specifically. There is nothing mentioned in these manuals about divination, nor about nature worship or pagan practises, nor about following false religions. When we think of witchcraft today, the first thing that comes to a lot of peoples' minds is Wicca, palm reading, and weird stuff like that. During the middle ages, it seems like people had a very different view of what actual, real witchcraft was.

[inkspot]

That's quite interesting, Ephinie. So nature worship was not necessarily witchcraft, to an Inquisition-era mind. Night Mystic, I have wondered about these same passages, too, and Leah and Rachel's belief that mandrake root would help them conceive male children. It's as if there was a folk magic, at that time, which did not much contravene God's laws. CS Lewis intimates something of the sort in the reincarnation of Merlin in the Space Trilogy -- it is implied that the magician's conversance with nature, to influence the forces of nature, was not a sin, but was in itself bad for him. Interesting.

[echoscot]

An interesting point about Leah and Rachel. Two things to consider while pondering this issue. Rachel and Leah were both born prior to the Mosaic Law, which is where we first find specifically, witchcraft condemned. Second, are you sure that everything they do is an example of godliness? You have to be discerning in the reading. When leaving Laban's house, for example, Rachel steals her fathers idols and hides them from him. Is this appropriate behaviour? What about Jacob, her husband, lying and cheating his way through life, yet receiving the blessing of God. You also have to account for other Biblical personalities actions. David slept with his best friend's wife and had him murdered to cover it up. Because David is described as a man after God's own heart, does this mean that his behaviour here was acceptable?

Just points to consider, you can't just say, well "so and so in the Bible did it." You have to look at the full context of the actions and the authority with which they did these things. It can become confusing as a result and there are many debates about the actions of Biblical personalities as a result.

This is one reason why I trust that the stories in the Bible are not made up. They show people for who they really are, not dressed up in some fanciful affair. It spares no shame for the ones that screwed up, yet when they seem to get it right, it offers support.

[Son of Adam]

An interesting point about Leah and Rachel. Two things to consider while pondering this issue. Rachel and Leah were both born prior to the Mosaic Law, which is where we first find specifically, witchcraft condemned. Second, are you sure that everything they do is an example of godliness? You have to be discerning in the reading. When leaving Laban's house, for example, Rachel steals her fathers idols and hides them from him. Is this appropriate behaviour? What about Jacob, her husband, lying and cheating his way through life, yet receiving the blessing of God. You also have to account for other Biblical personalities actions. David slept with his best friend's wife and had him murdered to cover it up. Because David is described as a man after God's own heart, does this mean that his behaviour here was acceptable?

Just points to consider, you can't just say, well "so and so in the Bible did it." You have to look at the full context of the actions and the authority with which they did these things. It can become confusing as a result and there are many debates about the actions of Biblical personalities as a result.

Of course I understand about Jacob lying and cheating, conniving, etc. I am also aware of Abraham telling half-truths about Sarah being his half-sister, David committing adultery, Peter denying Christ, Sampson's sins, and on and on. The Bible is full of stories of God blessing those who fell from grace, repented and then went on with the Lord. The Scriptures bring all these issues out on each one.

However, in the cases of Joseph, Daniel, and the Magi, no sin, no fault, no error is pointed out in these three. The same cannot be said in the aforementioned people or in others such as Moses, Aaron, Isaac, and others. In the cases of Joseph, Daniel and the Magi, Scripture does not give any indication of them committing sin in this area. Were they infallable. No. They were purely human and this had their share of faults, but in the area of witchcraft this is not true which one would expect to find if divination and being a sorcerer and wizard were, in these cases, a great sin on their part.

I just find these three passages of Scripture interesting. I do not necessarily find them contradictory as I am sure there is an answer somewhere that will explain it. Some believe that because of the Burning Times in which witch hunts were conducted that the word for witch and witchcraft may mean something quite different than it did five hundred or more years ago. It was a time when over 600,000 women were put to death for being a witch when in reality most were nothing more than midwives who used herbal remedies to help people.

Anyway, I didn't mention it to bring up some great debate but rather to just point out an interesting fact or two in the Bible.

[Pollywannabe]

Actually Hannah uh i do not think so... but o well :p :rolleyes:
what the ----? did u just talk to yourself?!?! crazy!*makes crazy motions at her back* :p

[hana_smurfy]

All i can say is that I know ppl who practice wichcraft and being a christian, i know tht there's no way you should mix the two. The thought of it scares me it almot seems like acult. I agree Saruman, that was perfect what was said.

[The First Joke]

I agree. Being a Christian means faith in God. Witchcraft is faith in the wegee board. sorry if i sound terrible.

[Solya]

Witchcraft is faith in the wegee board.

That's what most people think, but actually the real practitioners tend to stay far away from that board because of the negative influence it's got. :) You won't find many people who use that board if you decide to go and talk with the ones who practise witchcraft. I used to think everyone practiced it more or less in the same way, but I now know that everyone has his/her own way of using witchcraft. The differences between them depend on culture, belief, the strength of the individual and so on. There are some who use the board, of course, but there are many others who use other ways. Witchcraft simply can't be limited to a "faith in the ouija board", especially because witchcraft itself normally refuses to put faith in any object. ;)

Just clearing that up for you... have got nothing more to add to the discussion otherwise.

[Parthian King]

However the practice of witchcraft is typified (spells, Tarot, ouija, or even horoscope), it expressly does not mix with Christianity. Solya has stated that within her sense of things, the ouija is negative. But for a Christian, it's (and all other forms of divination and spell casting of any sort) all negative.

The Apostle Paul said we should, in regard to good, be as adults, but in regard to evil be as infants. Tolkien warned about good people dabbling in the arts of the Enemy. The danger of this principle is embodied in the person of Saruman (not to be confused with our beloved Curumo of TDL), who started as wise and good, but became enthralled in Ring lore and was finally ensnared.

For the witch, precision in terminology and practice is crtitically important. For the Christian, it is most wise to smell these things for what they are and go the other way. It doesn't matter how it is packaged, it is all bad and should be avoided at all costs. The Scriptures are quite clear about the consequences if we don't.

[TheHermit]

Coming from a Christian standpoint, I say no, and it is largely because of what Jesus said in His sermon on the mount:

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon" (Mt. 6:24).

God leaves us no room for compromise. We can take up our cross and follow Him, daily giving praise to Him for His wonderful love for us, or we can choose to go our own way and leave Him out of the picture. In what way are you going to please God or express that you love Him if you engage in dark practices such as witchcraft, wizardry, magic, etc., practices that are condemned by God? You cannot serve both God and mammon. There can only be one master passion in a person's life.

That's my two cents on the topic.
I agree but if you do believe that why do you have wizards on your avi and siggy I know its from LOTR but still.

[Shadow Hawk]

you've got a good point there Narnianwarrior.. magic is does not really exist becsause my hand was cut off.... :eek: but what i did not say was that it was an illusion(a mistaken perception of reality). the only ones that I know can use witchcraft or magic is satan which means "enlighted one" and God.

[echoscot]

Actually, I have to disagree on two points with you Narborg, 1. Magic is very real, there are those who practice and are given power by forces that, as a Christian, I believe to be dark and deceptive. 2.) Satan does not mean "enlightened one" it means " opponent or adversary". In Latin he was given the title Lucifer, which does mean"Bearer of Light". The term Lucifer is not really a Biblical term, it comes from Latin manuscripts.

[umbrellaxscenexcore]

read this http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/006/narnia-trouble.htm it made me think.

[TheHermit]

you've got a good point there Narnianwarrior.. magic is does not really exist becsause my hand was cut off.... :eek: but what i did not say was that it was an illusion(a mistaken perception of reality). the only ones that I know can use witchcraft or magic is satan which means "enlighted one" and God.
No not the slight O hand Illusions(I call that tricks) .I mean the real thing that REAL witches and REAL wizards practice

[Bramblefox]

Magic is above all evil and not in the least acceptable. Witches and witchcraft are condemned many times in the Bible, I can't quote the exact verses or verbatim, but they are in rebellion against God and are not to be tolerated. I don't mean we should go around 'eliminating' magic-users, I mean that they are not tolerated or acceptable in God's eyes. It doesn't matter what name you use to pad it either; it's all the same. And think of this: if you're not following God you're following Satan. It's one or the other; make your choice and there is no grey or weasling around it.