Debating And Discussion Religions

[GrayCloak]

I noticed that there were a lot of ‘religious’ threads/references floating around, where people were talking about their beliefs, and I would love to hear, debate, and share with other people about my own and theirs’. I’m a Reformed Presbyterian, and Calvinist (if you’d like to know more, simply ask) but I know others on this sight are not, and probably more than a few would fall on the whole other side of the Christian spectrum, or even claim to themselves no religion. Hopefully if other people here are interested we can debate and discuss our different beliefs, whether they are Christian or not, and maybe you’ll even convert a few people to your own belief. ;)

I’ll set up a couple ‘Rules of Engagement’ Just to make sure things don’t get to nasty:

1.No flame wars and no personal attacks. We should always be like ‘Iron sharpening Iron’ not Iron thrusting Iron into someone’s back. :D

2.If rebutting, give evidence. If I say I worship the purple dragon statue in my bedroom, and you call me crazy and leave it at that, you’ve accomplished nothing but making me angry. Give evidence to sway me.

3.Try not to leave the discussion in anger. It’s easy enough when talking about our most foundational beliefs to get angry, but if you do so then confront the offender, or clarify your viewpoint. After all, it’s hard to discuss stuff over the web, and sometimes the most basic conversations can be misinterpreted.

With that said, I really hope you all decide to post, as I’ve been dying to start this topic for quit a while, and it’ll be no fun arguing with myself. (I’ve actually known a few Calvinist who’ve done that over the years.) :rolleyes:

To start it off I’ll state a wonderful question that Dead Rain asked in the ‘Stupid Question’ Thread, that I thought really deserved it’s own topic.

“If you were to die today, where would you go and why? Would it be heaven, do you even believe in heaven, and if so why should you be allowed to enter?”

As I stated in the ‘Stupid Questions’ thread I would go to heaven because, and only because Jesus died on the Cross to pardon me from my sins. I do not believe I can earn my own salvation, and I do not think that getting into heaven is based on myself, or the works I do. But instead I believe it to be only by the grace of God and the sacrifice of his only begotten Son.

So….State what you think/believe/or disagree with. Tell me what you think about my beliefs, and if they differ/coincide with your own. Answer the question, and let the fun begin! B)

[B1-66ER]

Pretty bold topic you started here GC.

The rules that GC layed out is just a sugarcoated version of the global site rules (http://www.narniafans.com/forums/index.php?act=boardrules) that are most strongly applied at these types of topics.

If you haven't read the rules yet, do it now (http://www.narniafans.com/forums/index.php?act=boardrules)

Here's the more offical rule that Grey was mentioning:


No Flaming - Flaming is defined as personal attacks or insults on another person. Though we encourage healthy discussion and debate, a certain point comes in which an insult turns personal, and this is strongly discouraged via both public forums and the messenger. Reports of such abuse will usually result in a warning; multiple abuses will result in a Ban.

No Trolling - The inverse side of Flaming, Trolling is defined by trying to make others insult you. Posts such as "Narnia sux" would be considered trolling, as it is a purposeful act meant to result in arguement. Users in violation of this will be Banned.

[jennyjenjen56]

I completely agree with Graycloak! LOL so not much for me to say untill its time for a rebuttal. :D

[Dead Rain]

yep. i'm with GrayCloak. but i am not a "Reformed Presbyterian, and Calvinist" as Gray, but do believe basically the same thing.... i'll have to go ask my dad about a few things that i needed to ask him anyways. what does that have to do with this topic? don't answer that. *hit's self*

[jennyjenjen56]

I'm not a "Reformed Presbyterian, and Calvinist" either. I'm basically baptist. (long boring story, so Baptist is the general doctorine my church has and that I believe! :)

[GrayCloak]

-Jenny, I used to be a Southern Baptist, do you have alter calls in your church? I remember being young and watching my father baptise people in the pool, it used to scare the life out of me. :D Are you more conservitive in your beliefs, or more liberal? A good issue is the idea of Women pastors or elders. Conservitive churches hold to the biblical belief of women not having dominion/athority over men, while some modern churchs now have pastors/co pastors and elders who are women.

Just to be on the record, I am very conservitive. :)

Dead Rain: You're in the EFC correct? Same question as Jenny, are you more coservitive or liberal? Would you concider yourself reformed?

From what I have experienced with the denominations I've been afiliated with is that different churches vary widely on their beliefs even if thier assossiated with a larger union of churchs.

Either of you care to give a summary of what you/your church belieaves. (It doesn't have to be in deapth, I wouldn't make you write our your BCO or anything. :blink: :) )

[Dead Rain]

yeah that'd be freaky and long! oh and just wondering but has anyone oticed that i start to answer question/ reply to posts from the bottom up?

yes, Gray Cloak, you would be pertectly correctin saying that i'm "in the EFC." that sounds really wierd. reformed? nah, nto really. at least i'm don't think so? ahh! but as for conservative or liberal in BELIEFS, conservative. i take the BIble for what it says, and try super hard to understand as much as i can. the Word of God is not a one day thing. it is basically law. every political system of gov. has at least some of the same standerds of morality of all kinds in their system as in the Bible(one example would be veiws on murder). that's one reason how i get the "law" part. but yeha... what did you ask again? i don't remember what i was saying. really i don't

[jennyjenjen56]

-Jenny, I used to be a Southern Baptist, do you have alter calls in your church? I remember being young and watching my father baptise people in the pool, it used to scare the life out of me. Are you more conservitive in your beliefs, or more liberal? A good issue is the idea of Women pastors or elders. Conservitive churches hold to the biblical belief of women not having dominion/athority over men, while some modern churchs now have pastors/co pastors and elders who are women.

Just to be on the record, I am very conservative.

Dead Rain: You're in the EFC correct? Same question as Jenny, are you more coservitive or liberal? Would you concider yourself reformed?

From what I have experienced with the denominations I've been afiliated with is that different churches vary widely on their beliefs even if thier assossiated with a larger union of churchs.

Either of you care to give a summary of what you/your church belieaves. (It doesn't have to be in deapth, I wouldn't make you write our your BCO or anything. )

I am definitely more conservative in My beliefs. I don't believe women should be pastors. It's not that I don't think their not capable of it, I just don't think that it is God's plan. I could argue and argue about it, but I've debated it so many times it gets old! :)
I would say my church is between Assembly's of God and a traditional Baptist church. Not so into the spiritual gifts aspects and such, but more liberal than traditional Baptist. Not that liberal really fits my church because it doesn't. I and my church believe that the only way to salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ. Only through His blood can our sins be washed away. We believe in a daily, living relationship with God. In my opinion What I believe is not a religion but a relationship with Christ. We do believe in the trinity. I think if you get what I'm saying about being between those two denominations you will get it. I would say my church is not so tight laced as Baptists churches, as they have been known to be uber conservative. I like mean no rock music and such. My church has great music, which guitar, and drums, the whole bit. It's in things like that, that my church strays from traditional Baptist beliefs. :D

[Dead Rain]

yeah, basic same idea here, too. the Bible says in.... I think it's Timothy, that women shouldn't be...eh... that they should not teach men. i think it's in Timothy anyway. oo. but anyway, we've got more...eh... secular TYPE music, but the lyrics are still very Christian. that sounds dumb: "very Christian." i'm laughing at myself. haha. basic same thing in that issue too, guitar, drums, sometimes keyboard, singing(duh), electric guitars... man now i REALLY want to play the guitar(not kuz of church.... i've always wanted to learn guitar....i mean...ahhhh). yes, Trinity, yes daily living relationship with Christ. yeah..... the Bible is the standing point for all human organisazion. don't ask..... -_-

[GrayCloak]

Darn it, can't we disagree so that I can convert you two? Sheesh, you're just to godly for your own good. ;)

Alot of churchs will make big issues about the kind of music you have. I know there are many Presbyterian churchs that believe we can only sing the psalm, but I do not beleave there should be a sin issue over such things. I think God has given enough leeway in the his worship while still holding us to his strict standards. i.e. God is to be worshiped with the singing of songs, the praying of prayers, the preaching, teaching, and reading of the word, and the adminstration of the sacraments. As long as we follows these guidlines, we are honering him.

Currenly my church is singing achapella, but that is not from choice but nessessity. Unfortunatly we lost the people in our ministry who were in charge of music...There were uh...well I'd rather not go there it's still kinda painful.

But back on topic, we used to sing choruses with guitar, and our service has gone from contemperary to conserivitive, to all mean and manner of things inbetween. My personal prefrance is old scotish hymns, but it's just that personal prefrance.

So either of you (or anyone else reading this) have any religious questions/comments to make on a different issue. Perhaps even post a question like at the begining of the forum?

[Dead Rain]

well.... i don't know. maybe we could give eachother our..ummm.... styles(?) of evangilizm. or how, who, what, when and where we evangelize. yes? maybe?

[jennyjenjen56]

I for one like more contemporary worship music. Thats because I feel I relate to it better. I do like a good old celtic style worship hymn though. Yeah this thread is such a disscussion thread... we all agree!! lol :)

[Dead Rain]

yeah that is kinda funny, isn't it? but...nevermind.

[GrayCloak]

Originally posted by Dead Rain@Oct 31 2004, 05:06 PM
well.... i don't know. maybe we could give eachother our..ummm.... styles(?) of evangilizm. or how, who, what, when and where we evangelize. yes? maybe?
Evangelize? Do you mean like trying to convert people to your beliefs? I'd probably have alot less to talk about on that issue, but I'd love to hear your and Jenny's takes, if you have a mind to post them.

The problem is, I'm homeschooled, so I don't have alot of contact with people out side my family and my chruch. To add to this I am the definition of the word 'Wall Flower'. Please don't think it's because I'm homeschooled, because my siblings (espesially my sister) aren't like me. I can be in a room of people and just feel compleatly alone, so it's not only hard to strike up conversations with people about religion, but just talking to them in general is a daily trial. (wow, that was off topic, sorry 'bout that. :) )

Most of my evangelizesm would come through homeschool groups. Back when I took debate (funny concidering what I post above, eh? :rolleyes: ) the other kids were all Carismatics, so being a Presbyterian our believes were greatly different. I remember talking imparticular to one boy about the movie 'The Passion of the Christ' and I swear he thought I was in some kind of cult.

I talk alot with 'Christian' kids who comes to church only because their parents make them, and right now I'm trying to, in the best sence of the word, convert a girl who's parents just went through a divorce and she lives most of the time with her mom who's beliefs are very contradictory to her father; a member of our church.

So anyone else want to talk about evangelizeing? Or want to post some deep and meaningful theological question-don't make me start hocking books on this topic, because I will do that. :D

[TrueCrusader]

Is it just me but do you have a problem with capitalising off peoples faith.


Like I see almost everyday a commercial for God's music and The real way to Worship God and I have always had a problem with that... I dont know maybe its just me!

PS WOW I have not been on this sight for like 2 weeks and its changed! hahaha!

PSS. Whats your guys ( and girls) standings on halloween?

[Warrior-Poet51088]

[QUOTE] EVERYTHING THAT Grey Cloak HAS ALREADY POSTED IN THIS THREAD[ /QUOTE]

LOL. It's just that I find myself agreeing with you very much, Grey Cloak. I am a member of a PCA church (reformed Presybtarian), I absolutely LOVE old-English or Scottish hymns (and Irish, too!), and I consider myself a pretty hardcore Calvanist, at least when it comes to Predestination. I do disagree with him on some other, minor points. One thing he says in ICR is that "we should not argue about non-essential doctine" Please, everyone, keep this in mind: All of us are Christians because we believe with our hearts and confess with our mouths that Jesus is LORD. So don't write someone off if you don't agree with them!

TC: I think Halloween is a day for kids to get candy. There can be some really screwed-up stuff involved, but, knowing Halloween's roots (Druids, etc...), I'd say "have fun, but don't go overboard." I was never allowed to trick-or-treat, except once, when I was 12.

[TrueCrusader]

Ya I do agree! But My father always had a problem with dressing up as goblins and witchs and satin! The candy issue though I think is fine! But my father instead would go every say after halloween and buy us candy!(To make up for not going trick or treating!) but every halloween we celebrate Reformation day AKA all saints day! Thats fun and educational!! In fact this year we burned bloody mary at the stake! (She was a scarcrow!)

[Dead Rain]

Evangelize? Do you mean like trying to convert people to your beliefs?
aye, but i don't like using the word "convert," even though that is what you are..eh.. tryign to do when evangelizing. sharing the Gospel is a better way of saying it. if you say to someone "hey i want to convert you to Christ" you're gonna sound stupid and freak them out like nothin' else. but if you say "hey i want to share the gospel with you" you're gonna come off as a much more considerate person and not freak them out...as much.

True-- on the Halloween thing, i don't like Halloween 'cause it celebrates Satan's b-day. but i do liek the candy part :D. i do not celebrate halloween. most of the time we go to out church and play in the gym(our church is an old school. it's really cool) or the game room(very awsome).

[GrayCloak]

Originally posted by Aragorn51088@Nov 2 2004, 06:19 PM
[QUOTE] EVERYTHING THAT Grey Cloak HAS ALREADY POSTED IN THIS THREAD[ /QUOTE]

LOL. It's just that I find myself agreeing with you very much, Grey Cloak.
:D You've made my day, people seldom agree with me. :D

I used to be in the PCA to, but now I'm in the RPCUS, The Reformed Presybtarian Churchs of America. My dad's a pastor, and most of the other people in the RPCUs were at one point in the PCA. This is of little relevance to the topic, but have you ever read the Chalcedon Report, or Rushdoony? What about Brian Abshire?

On the terms of Halloween, I never celabrated it as a child because my dad had some moral issues about dressing up as demonic beings. (He did however buy me enough candy the day after to choke a large cart horse) We celebrated 'All Saints Day' or the more commonly used prodistant version 'Reformation day' and got to dress up as bible characters, or people from the Reformation. This year I had exceptional fun dressing up as Marry Queen of Scotts, (mother to James the I that great pervert and tyrant....) *after* she had her head chopped off. Some of those more faint of heart asked me to remove my costume before we ate supper. :D

I think Rain said something about Halloween being the celebration of Satan's Birthday, um, does Satan have a b-day as he was once an angelic being? Aragorn commented upon it being traced back to the Druids, that's the more common explanation I've heard, but I have some problems with it as well as people often talk about the Druids being the first to carve pumpkins, etching in the faces of demons, but as they didn't have pumpkins at that time it would be kinda hard for them to make jack-o-lanterns out of them.

Just a penny for your thoughts, as I don't really have an explanation for Halloween, just a couple theories.

Anyone interesting in posting a question? Comeon! There must be *something* that you're dying to ask!

[TrueCrusader]

Is it really satans b-day?

[Dead Rain]

ok, i guess you do have a point with satan being once an angelic being. so i guess a better way to phrase it would be: halloween is a day that celebrates satan. for inctance, Christmas may not be the EXACT day the Jesus was born, yet we still celebrate his birthday on December 25.
i believe that it is the same thing for satan and halloween.

[TrueCrusader]

From what i have heard Halloween is basicly a store made holliday to get people to buy morte candy.... That is what i had heard!

[GrayCloak]

:huh: ahem, True, I think you're thinking of a different holiday, Valintine's day for one I concider to be invented by Halmark and Hershy, even though people arugue otherwise. I do no believe there is a doubt that Halloween is the decendant of some older holiday.

Perhaps is has it's origins in pagan rights, and witchcraft celebrating Satan. Or maybe it was a druid holiday. I've heard to that it's a perversion of the Mexican 'day of the dead' Cinco de mio (I don't speak spanish, do forgive me on the spelling), I once even read an intersing artical that stated that 'Halloween' was a peversion of 'Holy day' and was in origin a Christian holiday and was peverted by haters of the faith to be the opposite.

[black cloak]

what about cupid Gray you can not forget about cupid

[B1-66ER]

Please discontinue the talk of guy down stairs. Its not the best subject.

[GrayCloak]

Oh sorry, didn't know that was bad teritory.

Here's a new theological question to get us off the topic, it'll be interesting to see people's take on this:

What do you believe about the Gifts of the Spirit? About faith healers, seers and speaking in tongues said in the name of God. Do you beleive these people to be sincere, if misguided? Or are they snake oil salemen, capitonizing off the ignorant and hurting? Do you think there is truth in what they practice, do you believe that God has actually given them these gifts?

I'd love to hear this one throughly discussed, but I'll let someone else be the first to answer, because I really need to go study for a test, and even now I'm pushing my luck. :unsure:

So someone post a long and detailed argument for or against, and then we can all jump to its aid, or attack it from every side. :)

[rosymole]

Speaking from the point of one who does not believe in 'God' or follow any religion I think those people that claim to be faith healers etc do tend to prey on those whom they know are vulnerable. I don't mean vulnerable in the harsh sense, but simply those that that are willing to embrace anythign to help them when they have problems.
I believe more in the abiliyy of the individual to overcome difficulties in their lives, that they use faith healers etc i think is just a way of boosting them sleves up, and using another person to help them because they don't have the confidence and self beleif to make things happen themsleves.
There a lot of bad, bad people out there who will use people who have strong belief in religion and they will use this to make money. I've seen coutnless television programmes, and heard nightmare stories from acquaintances about so called 'faith healers' who portray themsleves as great spiritual leaders blessed with gifts of healing, and people hand them over vast sums of money and get nothing in return. It makes me really angry! Partly because these people are so wicked as to behave in such a way, and secondly that the people who go to them don't seem to have the confidence to make a change for themsleves, with out relying on someone else.
Surely if God has such great powers of healing why can't they deal with him directly instead of going through a middle man?

Ok rant over! :P (I really don't want to offend anyone with my opinions so if i ever get a little over evcited just give me a poke and i'll go and have a cold shower!)

[Dead Rain]

Spiritual gifts are from God, imo and many others'. They can vary from cooking to evangilizing to preaching to singing and all the in-betweens. spiritual gifts are meant to glorify God. if one misuses them, he is(duh) not glorifying God. and that does not make his gift not a "spiritual" gift. well.. it's compicated. the fruits of the spirit in Gal...what is it Galatiens 5:22? i believe that talents in those catergories are "spiritual gifts". James 1:17, i believe that is the verse, says "All good gifts are from above" meaning God. for instance, most here i think would agree that Eminem is not a very good person, nor is his music(morally in all sences). but he does posses a gift for make music. well i don't like his music(at all. not even the sound), but as an example, please bare with me here. he has a good git, even though he uses it poorly. and that good gift is from God. now God doesn't want him to use his gift for the glory of satan(which is, of course, what he is doing), but God gave us all the freedom to chose. and eminem's choice was bad, very bad. my mom thinks that i have the "gift of helps" as she says. i don't think so but.. yeah... i sshould probable go do homwork too. sorry, if you ask later i can finish(or at least try to) what i was saying. sorry.

[jennyjenjen56]

Well put dead rain! :) As for tongues that's complicated. I don't think it's as common as the many people who claim to have the gift of tongues would lead someone to believe. Seers are a big no no. In my opinion, until Christ returns, prophecy is basically gone (Biblical type prophecy). We have the bible. Unless it's used for edification or something. As in confirmation of something already before you, as in a choice your about to make. But I think its a rare gift, and if someone makes a prophecy it must be in tune with the bible. Always check everything against the bible! Now I believe some fortune tellers or so called seers really do see things. They are dealing with Demons, a very nasty business. I think the healers thing is crud. Yes, God can heal you, and yes, miracles can happen, but give me a break. These faith healers are frauds, IMO. Other wise I agree with dead rain! I don't know what my gift is, I know I don't speak in tongues, prophecy, or heal people so... There are lots to choose from that for sure! :)

[jennyjenjen56]

rosymole I feel very similar about faith healers! Although I believe in God so I differ on a few things! :)

[GrayCloak]

Great discussion, I'll state my own two cents because well...frankly I enjoy the sound of my own voice.... :P lol.

I actually agree with some of the things you said rosymole, but I also disagree with you as well; I do not believe man has power within himself, I think that all strength comes from God. And thanks for posting here, I would love for you to stay and discuss these kind of things more. :)

Like Rain and Jenny posted, I too believe that all 'gifts' come from God, whether one be good at Music, math, writing, ect. God has given them all character and other attributes based upon his own ultimate design. However, I was talking along more of the supernatural gifts, so with that in mind...

I am a very...um trusting I think would describe it best (ok maybe gullible sometimes) person when it comes to these certain gifts, seeing and knowing people with cancer, heart conditions and other illnesses there is nothing that is more appealing to me than the idea of being able to lay hands on them and have God heal them. And it is because of this that I find faith healers so offensive. I believe that they pray upon those who are desperate for healing and sincere if misguided in their ideas of how to achieve it. People who go to these healers insist once they've been laid hands on that they're cured of whatever ailed them, only to find out that they are still ill. Men use God's holy name as a marketing tool, breaking the third commandment, and shake the faiths of those whom they claim to have healed.

Speaking in tongues I do not believe in either, but I think that most of those who do believe it are sincere

As for prophecy I believe that God reveals himself through his Word and Law, showing us daily how we must conform our lives to his Will. My dad does speak fondly though of a 'prophecy' he had the day he met my mother, telling his friends when they asked what he thought of he saying "That's the woman I'm going to marry..." :D

So does anyone want to agree or disagree with me? Or add their own thoughts? Rosymole, are there any questions you would be interested in posting concerning religion, or why you don't accept it? Or any other theology based thing?

[Dead Rain]

[quote]I do not believe man has power within himself, I think that all strength comes from God[/qutoe]
aye. i too believe that.
as for the spiritual gifts, what i meant was that not all spiritual gifts are like healing or speaking in touges, and that that can be misused.

i believe that the BIble is VERY clear on the speaking in tounges issue. i go by that and that alone! duh. :D

as for prophesy, i believe that in the Bible all prophets of God, who God called the prophetsw ewll.. that is a very...eh.... large issue. we have several already on the table. (and Gray, i liked you input on your dad. which i believe is mere human instinct. i think.... :D )

[jennyjenjen56]

very well put Graycloak. I do believe in tounges to a certain extent. Althought I believe closer to what you believe than with someone who believes in them fully! :)

[TrueCrusader]

This is a question that i posted on the Problems in lewi's theology!



If you died then you saw God standing at the gates of Heaven and he said "Why should I let you into heaven?" What would you say?

[GrayCloak]

Though I apreciate your posting here True, if you read when I started this topic that was the first theological question I posted, and those here answered it rather well. :D

Feel free though to post another question if you like, and that goes for everyone, I'm to busy at the moment to think of something really controversial. :P

[Dead Rain]

well how about we talk about...um... just a sec. and i'll figure it out......
oh i just had one. man. sorry guys. i had a great one to talk about last night but now i can't remember it. sorry. man....!

[TrueCrusader]

Oh sorry I didn't see the first post (I have not been here in like three weeks!)

[GrayCloak]

*sigh* do I have to do everthing myself? ;)

Ok, here's a question that I a fellow student asked in class the other day that almost got me mad enough to jump the guy. (and I could have taken him too... :rolleyes: )

If God is so good, and he loves us, his children, then why does he allow such bad things to happen to us?

The asker of this question is a 'materialist' (he thinks he is anyway really he just looking for something to escuse his own sin) and had never gotten a good answer before from any Christian. So what's everyone's take on this? I'll post my answer when I have time to write a long winded page and a half responce. :P

[TrueCrusader]

OOOH OOOH May I answer the question? Or have you had enough of me?!

[jennyjenjen56]

If God is so good, and he loves us, his children, then why does he allow such bad things to happen to us?
In all honesty I've struggled with this myself but the answer I would give is this: God granted us free will. We have free will to do whatever we want. He did this because He wanted us to truly love , worship, and follow Him and not be some mindless drones. So we have free will and we screwed up with our free will. We sinned and all of creation has been degenerating ever since. With sin our bodys, minds everything became unperfect. So this led to people being able to make bad, selfish,evil choices. Choices that cause bad things to happen. Like sickness, because of the degeneration of creation and our physical beings, health issues have arrisen. When we make decisions it rarely only effects ourselves and there are a lot of poweful people in the world who make choices that cause bad things to happen. Another thing is that God has a plan for each of our lives, he is the author. When your reading a story sometimes characters have to go through terrible things in order to reach the final conclusion, which tends to be a happy ending. God, the author of our story, sees the big picture. He knows how every thing will turn out and as His children we need not fear because we are in His hands and our end will be magnificant. :) Yes bad things happen as a song by the supertones says "reasons fail with Children without mothers". Gods ways are more than we can know, but make no mistake we and our sin are the cause of all the unhappieness in the world. Sin is responisble, of course satan had a hand in it as well ,but I think I go my point across! :D

[Dead Rain]

as in answer to your question, GrayCloak, i have this to say. Everything will come down to this: God will have all the glory. that's a lot of glory, but not nearly as much as He diserves.

[GrayCloak]

Ok, so I've been away from here for a while in hopes that more people would answer, but *sniff* I guess it's just the three of us again, eh, Jenny and Rain? ;)

Here is my take on the whole situation: What right have we to ask? The origonal sin in the garden of Eden was Adam and Eve (and Eve did it first mind you-uh sorry, personal gripe) eating of the forbidden fruit because they 'Wanted to be gods unto themself'. Man throughout eternity has been in a struggle with God because we want to be little gods determing good and evil for ourselves, hence when bad things happen we have no right to ask God why he does them because to understand God's divine will and plan for eternity we would have to be god ourselves.

One of my favorite (and most convicting) quotes from the Bible comes from the book of Job when Job's wife tells him to just curse God and die, and Job responds to her. "...You speak as one of the foolish woman do, should we accept good from God and not evil?"

God is God, not us, and he can ONLY do what is right, whether we understand it at the time or not. I have stuggled with this when my family has gone through adversity, and found myself asking "God, why are you doing this to us, we're just trying to serve you?" but then I have to ask myself where was I when he seperated the heavens from earth? When *he* created the world and all that's in it?

God certainly knows what he is doing.

Sorry if that was a bit long, it's been building up for quite a while-sometimes I take things kind of personally. :rolleyes: So someone else please post a question, or we'll be stuck reading mine forever.

[pacifiquesea]

Originally posted by GrayCloak@Nov 18 2004, 07:19 PM
(and Eve did it first mind you-uh sorry, personal gripe)

Adam was there watching and he didn't stop her. Not to mention that humanity didn't even 'fall' when Eve took the bite, but when Adam did.

[Dead Rain]

i looked at my last post again as saw that it wasn't really clear. so here: what i meant was everything would all work our in God's Almighty plan. but it obviously didn't come out that way. sorry. and Gray, i'm not copying you. trust me.

Q:

what are your views on morality and what are your moral standards(ie limit to what you do and don't do)?

[GrayCloak]

Originally posted by pacifiquesea+Nov 18 2004, 07:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (pacifiquesea @ Nov 18 2004, 07:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-GrayCloak@Nov 18 2004, 07:19 PM
(and Eve did it first mind you-uh sorry, personal gripe)

Adam was there watching and he didn't stop her. Not to mention that humanity didn't even 'fall' when Eve took the bite, but when Adam did. [/b][/quote]
Hey, I'm not letting Adam off the hook here, the guy relieved his duty as head of household over to his wife. Not to mention, since he was watching Eve he was not protecting her. Kind of like he was thinking, "Well, God said I'd die, and the Serpant says I'll be like a god myself, I wonder if my wife will die, or become a god..." I've just always thought that Eve was the first feminist, as she took it on herself to eat of the forbidden fruit without the council of her husband.

Sorry if I sounded like I was giving ALL the blaim on Eve, but you know I am a woman after all, kind of makes it personal. :rolleyes:

Rain, I got what you were saying, and I know you're not copying me; you have to much common sense for that. :D

And I'll answer your question later as for now I have to go make dinner.

[Dead Rain]

that's fine. tell me what you make and if it's good!

but yeah. i don't think that it was really man's fault or women's fault or Adam's fault or Eve's fault. but rather that it was mankind's "fault," if you can even say that. in reality, God let Satan fall, even though He didn't want him to, He let it happen, and that goes into the whole big thing of why does God let bad things happen: all for His glory. i personally don't care who's "fault" it was, i don't think that's important. at all. and i'm not saying that Adam was any better than Eve or vice-versa. but rather that they are equal. and i'm not saying that women should do everything that men do, but rather that they should be permitted to, by their own choice, but still taht they(the women) should listen and take great heed to advice and instruction. i had a lot more to say, but i just forgot. so.. yeah. *noddes head proudly(which is wrong, but it's a joke so..yeah.)*

[rosymole]

Hello I ahve returned armed with a trunk load of questions, but for the sake of clarity I will fire them off one by one...
A good place to start i suppose is at the begining!
What are your views on creation? In view of all the scientific evidence for evolution, how is it possible fro one person to have created the earth in 7 days and moulded man from clay?

(NB if i get any actual facts wrong please feel free to correct me - fro the past two years now i have been dipping in and out of the Bible in an attempt to educate myself!) :)

[TrueCrusader]

Well, first He created the world in six days, the last day (the seventh) is the day on which God rested. also, as far as "Scientific" evidence goes what were you exactly refering too? Now getting to the main point God created Man for his and only His Glory! Now Why God Created the world in six days is because He is the Lord of all things. Why God didn't do it in one second I don't know, you would need to be God to know that! But I do know that he is the Lord of all things and his glory is shown through every way in life! Now getting back to your " evolutionly believes" How do you believe the world was created? You believe that man evolved from a tiny adom (or some tiny thing) Where is your scientific evidence that man evolved! How do you KNOW that evilution is real! Is it now true that every year comits hit the moon and disolve into dust? 'How do you explain that there is only inches of dust instead of Feet and feet of dust? Is it not true that every year the moon farer and farer away from the earth? If evilution was reall shouldent it be farther away? Your so called "Scientific" Evidence shows only the signs that would support evilution! they don't show you the other evidence! please ask your questions I would love to answer them!

(Sorry if That was a bit harsh but its kinda touchy ground!)

[GrayCloak]

Ok True, what you've said I agree with, but that was unnecessarily harsh. rosymole asked a very valid question, and I think it needs to be answered in depth so that she doesn't get the feeling that her opinion is being thrown aside. (which sadly is often the case when it comes to this issue) So I'm going to try and answer your question the best I can Rosymole, but if I leave anything out, or seem to be making ungrounded statement, hit me with something hard and make me clarify what I say because I don't want to be arbitrary.

Please excuse the drool now rolling onto my key board, as this question is like Christmas coming early for me. :lol:

Ok: To start things off I would like to completely disagree with the statement

fro one person to have created the earth in 7 days and moulded man from clay?

God is not a person-he is God, thus it is completely possible because he is the creator and sustainer of the earth. He is a infinite spirit, and has known the end from the beginning of the world since before time itself. This is kind of hard to grasp, but to fully understand God and why he does what he does, and how he does it we would have to be God ourselves.

Ok, moving on from this I am riding in on my white horse to defend Six Day Creation. Firstly we must all understand that any given facts are interpreted through the filter we all have, and this does not always work in truth's favor. Scientist and Archeologist are working with TINY fragments of skulls and bones and they have to work backwards from what they have to determine their meaning. Because their underling worldview is Materialism this means that they will interpret these facts in a way that supports their paradigm.

Furthmore our dating systems are shady to say the least. Parts of volcanic rock which were formed only hours before being tested by these methods are sometimes said to be millions of years old.

Evolutionary charts have now been widely disproven because Homo sapiens, homo erectus, homo habilious, and neandertal man, all seem to coexist together when some of them are thought to be ancestors or descendants of the others. (and obviously your ancestors from millions of years ago can not exist at the same time as you.) Also the heads of these ancestors are not that different from modern day prime apes, and could easily be monkeys not our long lost cousins.

I do not think it's fair that the Materialist worldview somehow was given the title of 'Scientific' while the rest of us (and I mean all other religions not just Christianity) are counted as myths. The truth is that the evolutionist themselves speculate about the origins of man-where we evolved not only physically, but socially as well because when we were monkeys a long time ago, one day were found out that our hands could work with tools. Materialism was invented because of the wars between the protestants and the Catholics while people were searching for a kind of 'middle ground' where they could avoid either side of the issue.

I have a deep problem with Materialism not only because it is contrary to what the bible teaches but also because the most foundational Materialist belief is in 'Survival of the Fittest' but this belief leads to racism, discrimination, and all sorts of horrible things because we have no moral absolutes; no over-arching rules of good and evil. Only a thought that he with the most power is best equipped to survive.

I have so much more to say on this issue, and Rosymold if I've said something you disagree with, or you would like something clarified, please post and say so, because I'm not sure if I've been able to make myself completely clear here...and of course anyone else is welcome to add or object.

[Dead Rain]

WHOA. quite a long post there, Gray. and True.

yes, True. you were a bit harsh. but i'm glad that you and Gray got that out before i did. that would not have been pretty.

Gray, I must disagree with your first statement on the whole "evolution" thing(that you said God is not a person).

God is a person. But He is not human, He is God. "God" is His name and also His title. He is the God. there are no other gods. But God, the Lord, is a person. i'm not sure if you meant that God wasn't a person. i think that you probably just said it wrong, but if i am incorrect in my thinking, please correct me.

I, of course, disagree with the theory of evloluion. it is just a theory. not proven. most of what Gray and True said is what i would say. but i would have probalbey been i lot more harsh, that just being me.

now the question that i asked beforebut no one answered.:


Q:
what are your views on morality and what are your moral standards(ie limit to what you do and don't do)?

[Warrior-Poet51088]

Wahooooooooo! I'm back. And with ym schedule (said shed-YULE, the British way!), this is probly one of the two threads I'll be checking.

First off, someone mentioned, in answer to the question of "why do bad things happen to good people?", that "God gave man free will." I myself am a hardcore Calvinist (on this issue), and I believe that, since God is omnipotent, [I] it is impossible for us to do anything on our own.

Other than, I'd go with Dead Rain or Graycloak on just about everything else so far......;-)

P.S. Graycloak, are you a guy or a girl (sorry, I forgot again!)?


JOKINGLY: Cuz I want to marry you. LOL. I just had to say that. Your beliefs (again, so far) match up with my own. I am completely joking about this, and will nto stalk you.









I promise. No stalking.

Lemme know if I really freaked you out, and I'll edit the post.

[Dead Rain]

haha. Gray's a girl. but what about my question, Aragorn? aren't you gonna answer it?

[Warrior-Poet51088]

Sorry, which was that again?

[Dead Rain]

ha.....ha.....ha.. very funny, Aragorn.

Q:
what are your views on morality and what are your moral standards(ie limit to what you do and don't do)?

[black cloak]

Originally posted by Dead Rain@Nov 22 2004, 04:34 PM
Gray, I must disagree with your first statement on the whole "evolution" thing(that you said God is not a person).

God is a person. But He is not human, He is God. "God" is His name and also His title. He is the God. there are no other gods. But God, the Lord, is a person. i'm not sure if you meant that God wasn't a person. i think that you probably just said it wrong, but if i am incorrect in my thinking, please correct me.


wait God is NOT a person he is a spirit.

[Dead Rain]

read the Bible, you

[Dead Rain]

yes, He is a spirit. but look up the definition of a person

[black cloak]

k this is what i got Father, Son, or Holy Spirit: in Christianity, the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit, together being the Trinity

[Dead Rain]

ok first off, the Trinity is too complicated for any of us to understand completely. so dont' even go there, that will end in complete argument.
but do you understand that God is still a person, even though He is not human and is God?

PS. majority of the time, when i say "God" i am refering to the Trinity. if i am talking about Jesus and God in the same whatever and.....yeah. my mind just went plank.

[Warrior-Poet51088]

DR: The Bible/ God's nature.

[Dead Rain]

what? what are you refering to, Aragorn?

[GrayCloak]

Originally posted by Aragorn51088@Nov 22 2004, 07:39 PM
I promise. No stalking.

Lemme know if I really freaked you out, and I'll edit the post.
I'm not that easy to freak out, in fact I am usually the one who freaks others out. (i.e. a good opener when you meet a boy is not "Hey, you want to see my collection of swords? lol) As long as you're not fourty and living in your mom's basement I think you're funny. :D

And yes I am a girl, thank you for clarifying that one Rain. ;) And when I said that God was not a person I meant that God is not Human; as in one of us. He is God. period.

To answer your question about morality: I belive that the moral law is summarily comprehended in the ten comandments. (and no we can't earn our own salvation by following the ten commandment, because we can not perfectly keep them <_< ) I believe that 'by their fruits you will know them' and that once your heart has been changed by God that you will strive to follow his moral law. Of course because we are sinful we will be unabel to perfectly follow the law, but it serves to teach us our duties and show us our need for our Savior Jesus.

[Dead Rain]

well said. thank you.

and thank you.

[crjr9833]

I am a Roman Catholic.

[GrayCloak]

I'm a Reformed Presbetyrian-so we're on compleate oposite ends of the Christian spectrum I would assume?

Would you care to share anything about some of the topics we have been discussing, or add/disagee (probably with me, eh? :D ) Or maybe post a question yourself?

[Dead Rain]

yeah, crjr9833. what GrayCloak said! :D will ya?

[Warrior-Poet51088]

DR: I was answering your question, foo! (Like Mr. T, I "pity da foo").

I'd go with what Gray said, but I would add that God's nature is the ultimate standard (He is perfect, right?!); that He is the only one who can measure up to Himself, and we are Totally Depraved (I had to do it, I just had to do it.) ;)

[Warrior-Poet51088]

Originally posted by Aragorn51088@Nov 22 2004, 11:53 PM
(I had to do it, I just had to do it.) ;)
Hehehehe. I just thought of something else.
The reason I "had to do it" was:
a) I freely chose to do so
B) It just chanced to happen
3) God willed it to happen
e) God let it happen

What do you think?




Bonus:


"My name is Michael J. Caboose, and I hate ________________"

[Dead Rain]

hahaha. ok. i just cgot a little confused cause so many other ppl asked no.. wait. yeah...whatever you said. and i figured as much to your...eh... funniness.

could be could be.

crjr9833-- are you gonna ask a question now?

[GrayCloak]

I think that answer to Aragorn's question is none of the above, as it is obvious that envirormaental changes in the forums coupled with social pressure and right timeing allowed for him to grandually post a reply over the course of millions of seconds in which nature selecting which words would be apropriate....lol...sorry, this time *I* just had to do it....

So does anyone want to post a question, or should I take upon myself the task again?

[rosymole]

Oh can I?! I'm still contemplating how to reply to the 'creation' question I, in hind sight , bravely posted ( was i scared/offended?- now way! ;-)), but to skip back a few posts, I would quote but i haven't got the energy to go back that far tonight- the topic of morality arose, correct?

I think it's fair enough to follow the 10 Commandments- they are the basis of good human behaviour and decencey (sp?), but how about other moral issues? (not wanting to get too adult about these things) such as those who don't conform to the ideas held by those who adopt "The Silver Ring Thing" etc. This is something thats been well publicised in the UK although we tend not to adopt schemes like this 'en masse' as Christian youth is not very big in the UK.

[GrayCloak]

Good to see you again Rosymole, I hope we didn't scare you off with all our post about Creationism, but you must understand for those of us who've talked about this before it's a pretty touchy subject. I can't tell you how many times I've been called by old 'friends' that I am stupid, ignorant, and narrow minded because of my biblical stance. If you have any questions about creationism and how it holds up, by all means post them; or I'll never get a chance to explain my veiwpoint to it's fullest! ;)

On the mortal issue (thanks to a question posted by Dead Rain) Please post what things you think are listed outside of them so we can discuss them further. (But, eh, we should probably try and keep this as clean as possible, if you know what I mean; some things are better left not mentioned)

And please forgive the innocents of a sixteen year old, but what praytell is the "The Silver Ring Thing"? I do not believe I've ever heard of that before.

[rosymole]

Gray, I would never accuse you of being stupid, ignorant or narrow minded - and those that do can't see the wider picture! Just because someone has different views from me doesn't mean that they have any less value. We should all be like sponges and absorb as much from others as possible!

I think I may have become confused due to my own laziness by reading 'mortal',as 'moral'??? oops!

I thought, throught the Great British Press (!?) that "The Silver Ring Thing" was well known in Christian Youth cirlces in the US, but maybe only for some. Basically, from my limited knowledge, it's a pledge if you like that teenagers and young people can take to assure that until they are married they won't 'give themselves' in marital terms to anyone, be it current boyfriend/girlfriend, or if they already have done so then they are made 'pure' again. To show their commitment to Christ and themselves they wear a silver ring on their wedding finger, and don't take it off until they are married. It seems to go hand in hand with the rock music side of religion.
Hope you see what I mean..thinking about it, it's probably a subject left alone to spare any blushes!

[GrayCloak]

lol. Oops myself, due to my bad typing I wrote 'Mortal' when the origonal question had to do with 'morality'. *blushes* my bad, sorry about that Rosymole. :)

Now that you explained about the 'Silver Ring' I remember hearing of something like that before, though I'd never actaully heard about the ring aspect of it, just kids making a vow. (lol. after reading your post I noticed that the pewter ring I always wear is actually on my ring finger.)

So anyway Rosy, what was your question concerning morality? Do you want to hear other people's stances on how they view issues outside of those 'Top ten things that really tick God off'? I'd be happy to give my best answers to any questions that you would pose! :)

[TrueCrusader]

Ok Maybe I should shut up and stop digging my grave but hey I am to stupid to stop! I saw that rosymole posted about christian
Boyfriend/Girlfriend dating! (And I would like people to post there moral standings on dating) but I myself find it.... Well.... Not a sin but something you should not do. (God says nothing of dating in the bible so I can't say that it is a sin!) What I mean is you shoulden't "Date" In the pagan way! (Its just putting yourself in a place that you should not be in!) but I think there is a difference in "dating"! If you are "Courting" (Which could mean a whole different thing then dating) Then that means that you are trying to find someone suitible for marriage! But Again I just think dating is well (Once again) putting yourself in a position that you should not be in! I am home schooled, so Maybe other people have different views but that is my personal opinion of dating!

PS. Aragorn And DR I would love to see your replies!

[Dead Rain]

ok where'd my post go? anyway. what i said was something like:

why did you(True) ask specifically me and Aragorn?
and you are COMPLETELY WRONG in your thinking, if that is truely what you think. the Bible DOES give guide lines for dating and a whole lot more(duh. but yeah.)

[TrueCrusader]

I am sorry dead rain I don't think that it is a sin I am probaby wrong but could you please point out the verse that says that you should not date? And I think you interprated my post wrong (probably because I said what I did not want to say) I said that the bible Does give guidlines to dating but it dos not say directly Thou shalt not date, sorry for any misinterprations

[TrueCrusader]

Sorry, What I meant was Well I would like to hear your replies. Well I would like to hear aragorns reply because he is a calvinist.

[crjr9833]

What do any of you know about the Eucharist??

[Dead Rain]

True-- ok. yeah. i guess i did kinda not get what you meant. but if that is what you meant(what you corrected me on), then you are correct. the Bible does not say thou shall not date. yes. sorry. i didn't mean to jump to a conclusion. that's not like me. sorry.
but the BIble does say the bad company does corrupt good morals. i guess that was kinda what i was saying. and that marriage is also...eh... explained(?). not sure if that's the right word but.. well you get what i mean. and again i'm very sorry for accusing you wrongly. will you please forgive me?

[lsipher]

Crijr, by eucharist do you mean the name by which R.C.'s traditionally call the bread when celebrating the sacrement of The Last Supper? Or are you refering to something different?

- lou

ps Great thread guys, been reading but not posting 'til now. Couldn't let you hog all the fun!

[Warrior-Poet51088]

OK, Specter has told me that the site was hacked this morning, and everything post 4:00 a.m. was lost.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Cuz I made a beautiful post on what I believe about dating/ courtship, but I don't have time to re-type it now.

And, yes, I know what the Eucharaist is, and I usually refer to it as The Lord's Supper.

[GrayCloak]

Gee sorry about your post Aragorn;that really stinks. I'm going to avoid the whole dating issue; it's uh, not really my forte' (Nah, that's a lie, I'm just scared stiff of it :) )-maybe I'll post something about it later...maybe.

Ok so about the Lord's Supper: crjr you have no idea what you asked! ;) I saw your post this morning and I've been thinking how to condense my answer into an apropriate post size all day. So, I'll give you the short answer my confession gives, and if you like you can ask questions and we'll take it from there I suppose. (and everyone else please post your comments on this issue if you like.)

k, here goes:

The Lord's Supper is a sacrament, wherein, by giving and recieving bread and wine, according to Christ's appointment, his death is showed forth; and the worthy recievers are, not after a corporal and carnal manner, but by faith, made partakers of his body and blood, with all his benefits, to their spiritual nourishment, and growth in grace.

In anyone doesn't understand this, or wants to ask me about it, please do, but I don't think I can state my deepest beliefs better that that.

[crjr9833]

Grey Cloak, are u Catholic?? Well I guess what you said was right. But, yes, it is a sacrament in the form of bread and wine changed into, by God through the priest, the Body and the Blood of Christ. Though it still has the appearances of bread and wine it truly has become the Lord. So do us Catholics believe.

[crjr9833]

Jesus instituted this sacrament at the Last Supper.

[GrayCloak]

lol! No, crjr, I'm not a Catholic, I'm a prodistant, and more acuratly; I'm a Reformed Presbyterian.

I beleive the Catholic's doctrin of the Lord's Supper is called Transupstantiation. (gee I hope I spelled that right) where the bread and wine physically become the body and blood of the Lord Jesus; whereas I would reject that docrine and say that "the worthy recievers are, NOT after a corporal and carnal manner, but by faith, make partakers of his body and blood..." So there is no changing; the bread remaines bread, and the wine remains wine.

Ooooh! I really want to get into this more, but I have to go study for a test, someone else want to post?!

[TrueCrusader]

No problem (In fact it was probably my bad post), I wasent really talking about christian/pagan dating but more of youth group dating... (By the way i do not support dating in any way, and in our church we do not have a youth group!) But yes I love taht verse "Bad commpany courupts good morals." I also like the one "Do not be decieved God will not be mocked whatever a man sows so also shall he reap"

[crjr9833]

Gray Cloak, I must disagree. The Eucharist is and stays the Body and Blood of Christ whether one believes it or not. And the Catholic Church is the only church with a valid Eucharist. And by the way its Transubstantiation, the change of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

[Dead Rain]

True-- who you talkin' to?

Gray--aye

Crijr--ehh.. i have lots to say but no time to say it. oooooo. i like htat. good sig line! hehe.

[Warrior-Poet51088]

OK, I'll do it. I'll take the time, which I do not have, to support Gray Cloak, and try to see what else crjr has to say about transubstantiation.

I do not believe in Transubstantiation. According to Roman Catholic theology, we need Transubstantiation to purify us before God, by taking away our sins (do you agree, crjr?).

Well then, what happens to Hebrews 9, which says, "So Christ was sacrificed once, to take away the sins of many people..."(v. 28). See the preceding verses on what the alternative is.

I don't have time to post much else, but please, let's keep in mind that we all (at least the Christians) acknowledge Jesus Christ as LORD and Savior, and therefore are brethren. It means don't get into fights!

NOTE: crjr, I respect your beliefs (and I had been wondering if a Catholic would have the guts to come out and say that the rest of us are excommunicae, and are outside of Christ's saving graces). I would ask you to please not make this a bone of contention, becuase it will offend some people, who will lash out at you.

[Bitter Milton]

Hey guys, i thought id interject. Youve been talking about christianity all of this time, but heres something new.

Oy vey! I'm Jewish! However, ive studied christianity alot, and ive read many books about different ends of the world. I also did an extensive report on cults, so i know alot about them.

There are alot of perks to being jewish. I get 8 days of presents, and i get to miss alot of school for religious holidays. Besides, if it werent for us creating the demon Lillith,the white witch wouldnt have a mummy!

[GrayCloak]

Well, I'm commiting intellectual suicide here, as I have a final tomorrow I NEED to study for (seriously this test is going to be somewhere over a hundred questions) but I can't help myself; I literally can't! (....trying to resist urge to type long winded responce...resistance it futile...prepare to be bored...;) )

I just need to make this REALLY quick:

Ok, Firstly, thanks crjr for spelling Transubstantiation, as you might have noticed: I'm an horrid speller. I know what it means, and I compleatly disagree with it.

One of my main (but not my only, I'm only stating this one because of a lack of typing time) is that through Transubstantiation, and the ACTUAL partaking of Jesus's body and blood, and host becomes an object of veneration, which is against the second commandment. I know the Catholic comandments are different than a prodistants, but the second comandment biblicaly is:

"Thou shalt not make unto thyself any graven images, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters under the earth....(here's the part I want to draw referance to) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them, for I the Lord thy God am a jelious God, visiting the iniquities of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fouth generations of them that hate me. And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my comandments...."

Ok, I need to study: Common! Aragorn, Rain, you guys are smarter than me; see if you can answer this better.

Oh yah, and Bitter Milton, welcome. What kind of Jew are you if I may ask? Do you fit into the three biggest catagories of Liberal, Conservative, or Orthadox? There are two others, but I can't remember them off the top of my head.

[Warrior-Poet51088]

Welcome to the discussion, Bitter Milton!

I'm am TERRIBLY, TERRIBLY sorry, but, having seen Fiddler on the Roof one too many times, my first thought when someone says they're Jewish is of Tevye dancing and singing "If I were a rich man". Don't take this the wrong way: You are made in the image of God, and I respect you! Could you please ask us about anything in particuliar that makes Jesus of Nazareth not Christ?

Gray: I would say that, in addition to that, Transubstantiation makes it sound like Catholics are cannibals. And another thing: in the Mosaic Law, God said not to eat any animal while it's life-blood is still in it----Catholics are deliberately drinking what they consider to be Christ's blood. God would not contradict himself like that!

[Dead Rain]

aye. i agree with you, Gray. and I also disagree with the Transubstanatiaion thing(i can't spel it either). and also welcome to the disscussion to Bitter Milton. i didn't klnow that you were Jewish. care to tell us about..wel... anything that comes to your mind regarding such? that probably didn't make any sense..but .... wel... yeah.

[Bitter Milton]

Being Jewish is pretty cool. I'm not sure if i could put myself in one particular Jewish group, but politacaly, i am a liberal. I'm not a super orthodox jew, my family still drives cars on saturday. I like Judaism because it has a proud and noble heritage, and when i go to my synagoge with my family and friends, i just feel very proud.

one thing that ticks (edited: because the p-word isn't family friendly, not that extreme of a word but we try to stay away from it on here! :)) me off are some narrow minded christians. when people dont realize that there are any other religions besides christianity, it makes me mad.

Aragorn: I LOVE THAT MOVIE!

[GrayCloak]

Bitter Milton it's interesting to read your post; I've just finished a course of Death and Dying at a local collage, and Judeism is one of the Religions we studied the beliefs of.

Care to add a question of you own to debate; or to comment on any of the former discussions?

And just a comment, but Christian's are not the only one who can be 'narrow minded' as you put it. There are some things that transent, race, religion, creed and doctrine, and stupidity is one of them. ;) (and in the Will of God, some people more than others) I've met more Materialist (not a general slam against them as a whole) that were far more narrowminded than Christians; we just seem to get all the bad wrap for such things...:(

[Dead Rain]

aye. thank you Gray. and Milton.

as to Gray i was jsut gonna say the same thing!

[jennyjenjen56]

Christians do seem to get the whole closeminded or narrowminded rap a lot. Of course pretty much everyone else is narrominded by there own standards. I think a lot of the problem is that we each have different definitions of what narrowminded and closeminded means.

[Bitter Milton]

Yeah, i didn't mean to single out Christians as being the only narrowminded people, but they are the people that i have met that think their religion is the only one.

does anyone think i am going to hell because i am jewish?

[Dead Rain]

no not at all. you could call yourself a budist or a hindu or a anything-that-goes-against-the-Bible and yetstill believe and trust and obey God's Word. wait did that come out right? Gray, did it come out right(i ask Gray because she kinda knows what i mean. or at least i hope she does.... AHHHH!)?

[Bitter Milton]

AH. I know some people who think that, and it just seems bizarre. I don't think you guys (christians) are gonna be spending eternity with Satan.

Anyone here Mormon?

[TrueCrusader]

Ok Sorry I have not been here in a while! Bitter Milton considering your question about going to hell.... Well that depends do you truly love God and want to serve him? Because there is a verse (I dont remember where it is in the bible) I think this is how it goes but I don't rely remember "No one who loves me will be left behind" Again I think that is the verse I remember it coming up in the sermon and in sunday school.

Bitter milton: Do you believe that Jesus was the eternal son of God and that he is the Lord of Heaven and Earth?

[Bitter Milton]

Yes, i love my god, which i believe is the same as yours. To your second question: no , i do not. Jesus is not god.

[jennyjenjen56]

does anyone think i am going to hell because i am jewish?

I believe that anyone who does not believe that Jesus Christ was God and is Lord and savior, and has not accepted Christ as their savior, is going to Hell. You can be Jewish and Go to heaven, it all depeneds on where you stand with Jesus. I think it would be pretty hard to be Buddhist, Hindu, or any other polytheistic religion, and be a christian. Pretty much every thing they believe doesn't mesh with christianity. But the point is that we are all sinners and the only way to heaven is by accepting Christ as your savior. It's only through his Blood that we can go to heaven because God can't be in the presence of sin, and without the redemtion of Christ, our sins have not been washed away and therefor we cannot be in heaven with Christ. I want to make it clear though that I don't think it's someones religion that sends them to hell, we are all bound for hell, Its only through Jesus that we are saved. It's our sin that dooms us. Thats what I believe, I don't mean it to be offensive, I don't want to come off as a fire and brimstone preacher but that is what I believe. Thats why christians are so concerned with "converting" people to Christ. Thats Why were so insistant that our religion is the only right one because we believe, even if it sounds nuts to you, that with out Jesus, because we believe he is the ONLY way to Heaven, your doomed to eternity in Hell. So if someone is trying to tell you Jesus is the way, its only because they care. It's not about being right, most of the time, its a matter of eternity to us. The idea that anyone we know or come in contact with may have to spend eternity burning in Hell bothers us! That might be why we come off as pushy, close minded, narrowminded, and that like.

[Warrior-Poet51088]

Bitter Milton: A friend of mine from school is Jewish, but he believes in Jesus as the Christ (so, he's a Messianic Jew*).
You believe in Jehovah, correct, Milton? Could you also define what you mean by "liberal Jew"?

*Messianic Jew: In the sense that he believes the Messiah has already come not that, like other Jews, he is still waiting for the Messiah.

[Bitter Milton]

When i say liberal jew, i mean that i don't follow Jewish rules with utter devotion. My family spends a great amount of time on the sabbath in worship, but we still watch tv, cook, and do other things that would normally not be done.

as for messianic jews, i have heard of them, but ive never met any. there arent very many of them, but they are a very vocal group. they are often requesting recognition as jews. do you know any more about them aragorn?

[GrayCloak]

I've been aware for a while and missed the whole conversation on going to hell, but I must say I agree with Jenny compleatly. I belive that anyone who 'confesess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead," shall be saved.

Which is why I know that people from other denomination than my own are saved just as well as I am.

Those of other religiouns however, like Budist and Hindues, I do not believe wil go to heaven, unless God does something to change their hearts.

[Warrior-Poet51088]

Milton, I do not know much about them, but my friend is a very "charismatic/pentecostal"(strictly in my opinion) Christian--he believes that his father has the gift of prophecy, something I believe the New Testament says will stop(the gift, that is). Prophecy isn't necessary any more--it was used by God to foretell of His Son's coming.

Which reminds me: how do you combat the fact that Jesus did fulfill the prophecies regarding the Messiah?

[Bitter Milton]

Aragorn: concerning jesus, thats a very good point. I'm not sure what to say. i'm not too knowledgeable about the new testament. did christ ever say specifically that he was the messiah?

[Dead Rain]

I believe that anyone who does not believe that Jesus Christ was God and is Lord and savior, and has not accepted Christ as their savior, is going to Hell. You can be Jewish and Go to heaven, it all depeneds on where you stand with Jesus.

that is what i meant. just thought i'd let you all know. and also, when i said the thing about being budist or Hindu, i meant that in the sense that not all ppl consirder themselves "Christians" but may believe what Christians believe. or rather i shoould say that not all ppl like to be called Christians. or with their background, like if someone was budist and then "converted" to Christ. sorry.

Those of other religiouns however, like Budist and Hindues, I do not believe wil go to heaven, unless God does something to change their hearts.

aye. the opposite of that is not what i was saying.

[Bitter Milton]

I have a hypothetical. Here goes.

Lets say that Hitler and Ghandi are both waiting for the lords judgement. Ghandi doesnt accept jesus as his savior, but Hitler does. Who goes to heaven/hell?

[pacifiquesea]

Well, once they're waiting for judgement, it's too late.

(I won't be posting much on this thread, because I become dangerously adamant to the point where it affects me physically. Awesome!)

[GrayCloak]

In my opinion; they both go to hell.

You see Hitler may have claimed the name of Christ, but that does not make him a Christian. "My their fruits you will know them" the bible says, and obviously Hitler was wicked, wicked man. Period. Ghandi was not a believer; he did not rest upon the saving grace of our Lord Jesus to clense him from his sins. I know this can be hard for alot of people to hear but we cannot get into heaven because we are 'good' people (and by the way without the bible what is the basis of what is good or not?) our only hope for everlasting life has to come from Jesus's death and atonement for sins.

Oh, and I'm sorry you won't be posting here much, pacifiquesea. But I'd love to hear any imput you'd be willing to share with the rest of us.

[pacifiquesea]

But if Hitler had truly repented just before death (all hypothetical) then of course he would go to heaven. You're right though GreyCloak - just because someone says they're a Christian certainly doesn't mean anything, and it is the fruits that count.

Especially the strawberries.

[jennyjenjen56]

Well If Hitler had asked Jesus to become his savior and had truly ment it, Its a change of heart, Then he would go to heaven. Of course only if the choice had been made before death. And if Gahndi had not then yes he would go to hell. Its not our works that save us, it's Jesus. Hard to understand and to believe, I know, but it's not us, it's faith through Jesus. Even good people go to Hell if they Don't have Jesus. It's very very sad!

[pacifiquesea]

We could say the same to you.

[Dead Rain]

aye, pacifiquesea. Milton, what jenny said is the truth. read the Bible and you will understand. really. i know that that sound sreally lame, but it's true.

[Warrior-Poet51088]

Hey, Milton, if you're gonna make a statement like that, at least let us know why you disagree with us!

Also: You said that Jesus isn't God. How do you support your position?

And, yes, Jesus did say that He was the Messiah, though it was usually indirectly.

[pacifiquesea]

True that. Actually, it may seem indirect to us, but to the people in those times his claims to be God were quite clear cut.

[lsipher]

Yep, they'd both go to hell.

My uncle and his family are Jewish and politically liberal too. Small world.

- Lou


ps Isn't attacking someones character, when you don't like their argument, a logical fallacy? Check me on this Grey, but it's called an ad hominim attack.

[GrayCloak]

50 points and a cookie goes to lsipher for spotting and corectly named the logical fallacy as an ad hominim (meaning against the man) This in when instead of refuting a given argument you attack the person themselves.

This would be the case with Bitter Milton calling (me? I guess and Jenny and Rain too) fools. Obviously we've run into a sore point, and touched some soft skin. But name calling isn't a good rebuttle.

Bitter Milton, you obviously disagee with me, and that's compleatly fine; you're entitled to your own opinion. Would you care to share with us why your beliefs are better than mine? Or would you care for me to offer evidence on my behalf. I will willingly debate this topic with you as long as you would like because it is fundimental to my faith.

[jennyjenjen56]

Yes, milton you are entitled to your opinion, so what is it, and why do you dissagree?

Also Milton I deleted your post because comments like that are not allowed on this message board. And to many repeat offenses can result in a ban. We want your involvment on this message board but please keep it civil. Don't call people names and explain why you dissagree. PLEASE DON'T FLAME!!!
Thank you
Jenny

[Warrior-Poet51088]

Go Isipher and GrayCloak! I had to do a mock trial of the deity of Jesus last year in an honors class, and "ad hominim" was a term we learned, when studying about what was/wasn't "courtroom" appropriate.

FYI: I was the lead prosecutor, trying to prove that Jesus wasn't the Christ, and my side won by a landslide, or so I heard the voting went.

[Dead Rain]

and do you agree with that which you strived to "prove"?

[GrayCloak]

[QUOTE"ad hominim" was a term we learned, when studying about what was/wasn't "courtroom" appropriate.QUOTE]

You'd be surprised how many times people get away with logical fallacies though; in debate I couldn't always count them on one hand. I once got called 'stupid' 'mean' and 'harsh' in quick succession, followed by a couple 'straw man' arguments and two 'hasty generalization'. *sigh* I miss debate....;)

I really hope you reply Bitter Milton, I'm dying to discuss the previous issue further.

P.s. Rain, I'm sure Aragorn did believe what he was arguing; people often have to take opposite sides when debating; He seems like a Godly man from his post. (After all he is a Calvinist! ;) lol, sorry!)

Uh, right Aragorn-You DO believe that God is the Christ
-right?

[Warrior-Poet51088]

Yes, yes.

Several people who are big head honchos in the school were very concerned with what a friend of mine believed the year that she did the trial. But that may be due to the fact that she was "claiming"(in the trial, not in real life) that Jesus had lied when, at the last supper, he said that he would never drink wine until he was in Heaven (I don't remember the exact passage, so I may be messing it up), and then she brought out the fact that on the cross, they offered Jesus gall, and he drank some of it. Gall is a mixture of WINE and vinegar. It was really pathetic. The defense panicked, managed to not read the passage in John that says explicitly that He spat it out(!), and looked like fools.

I won the debate because
1) We allowed the head defense attorney to talk on and on, until the jury just got bored of it, and then we would say, well yes. We agree with you on that. And the jury would just be like, Gah! She blathered on about a point that the other side already agreed with! Grrrrr!

2) We, unlike my friend, were somewhat caring(for the most part): rather sympathetic towards the defense and their beliefs, so that we didn't lose just because ppl were like: "They're sooooo mean!" of course, one of my close friends, who was on the prosecution with me, was pretty harsh on some of the "witnesses" he examined.

3)We were allowed to outright lie. So, when one of our "witnesses", who was playing Caiaphus (high priest at the time of Jesus' crucifixion), was questioned as to whether he wanted to kill off Jesus for political reasons. When they quoted a passage wherein Caiaphus blatantly says that Jesus was a political problem, our "Caiaphus" simply said that, "The author of this book[Matthew] is clearly lying." It was great, cuz how could they go against an "eye witness"?!

4) I used a cheap trick my teacher told us about. Take some red food coloring, but it in a darkly colored cup, put a layer of mineral oil on top of that, then some water on top of that. Take a bowl, and put some water in it. Show everyone that the bowl and the cup have water in them (do this by dipping your fingers into the water, and sprinkling a little of it). Then, slowly pour the cup of "water" into the bowl, and you've just changed water into wine! It made the jury go "ohhhhhh!" and most of the guys were taken by that alone: that, quite possibly, Jesus had been a fake miracle-worker!

5) We were better dressed.
It's as simple as that. The three main attorneys for our side all wore suits and ties, and our witnesses were jjst cool-lookin'! One of our witnesses was the thief on the cross, and the guy had torn up his shirt and put "blood"(paint, duh) on it. We had blood capsules for him to pop in his mouth when we were questioning him, and by the time the defense came up, we were going to have him pretend that he had died, just to see what they would do.

I'll stop rambling now, but yes, I do believe that Jesus is the Christ! And I'm kind of amazed that someone would have to *ask* me that, after all my posts! :(

[rosymole]

I've just about half an hour reading pervious posts and now I'm exhausted!
But i do have one question, if someone is a devout Hindu/Sikh/Muslim etc and they spend their entire life devoted to their God(s) and religion and never commit any act of unkindness against another human being then according to the Christian views held by many here that person will not get to Paradise, but go the other way? Correct?

But, is it not possible that each person who worships a God, is following and worshiping the same God, just called a different name and interpreted differently by different people? There are so many different world religions, some having enormous following and growing rapidly (Isalm being the prime example) how can so many have got it so wrong? I don't know if I've explained myself very well, but i can clarify if need be!

(I haven't posted for a while on here because to be honest i get a little confused, and for certain subjects eg the dating one esp i don't want to risk getting too 'adult' about the converstaion if you like, and in general i think it's best that i hold my tongue!)

[jennyjenjen56]

No there is one God, and the bible is the supreme athourity on God. The problem with these other gods is that their message goes against God's word. If you bring everything against the Bible and the One God, all these other gods are false. There belief systems do not mesh, there for they do not come from the same God. There is tons of info and evidence I could look up to support my facts. But I'm to lazy at the moment. As to why other religions exsist ,we(I) believe it's from Satan. And man's own sin, wanting to live life their way. Satan and God have been at war for a long, long time. Satan wants to win at all costs. One of the ways he gains power, and hurts God deeply, is by decieving people away from the truth. Many religions you will see are very similar to christianity, at least on the outside or to some extent. But when you get to the heart of the belief they are way wrong and do no lead to Jesus, who is the way the truth and the life. He said no one comes to the Father except through me (Jesus). There is only one God. All other religions, imo, are false and are pulling people away from Christ.

never commit any act of unkindness against another human being
You kind of hit the nail on the head, it doesn't matter what you do, we all sin, accourind to God. See Jesus has a target, we are the arrows, and his standard is the bullsie. The problem is that Sin, is the wind, and it pushes us aside so that we miss the mark. But Jesus he is the hand that Guides the arrow. Only with Him can we hit the mark. He paid the ultimate sacrafice, a pure blood sacrafice as ordaind by God. His blood washes away our sins so that we can be in paradise with God. It doesn't matter how good you are, how kind you are, Its not by works that you are saved but by faith in and that Jesus did and can save you. Its a gift for the taking. A lot of people look at that and say it's to easy. Or they look at all the other religions and think .. well they sound good, I like the way this works. The also look at the suffering in the world, and wonder why. People also don't believe because of their pride, the don't need a God, or their intellect blocks them. Because God goes beyond understanding. Its a faith thing. Satan is the deciever, he does anything to keep sould away from God. Ok now that I've talked long enough. Does that explain it somewhat?

[GrayCloak]

Darn you Rosymole; I'm five minutes from heading out the door; why must you ask such interesting questions! ;)

Ok, to give my short and mean answer, I believe that those who worship other gods are not saved, and do indeed go to hell. I beleive that the ONLY way to everlasting life is through God (the Christian God, obviously), who sent his only son Jesus to die on the cross and parden us from our sins. This is essential to my faith because I cannot earn my own salvation; it can only be through Jesus. If being a moral person is our hope in salvation then it really is a sad one, becaue your eternal life rest solely on whether your good deeds outweigh your bad. This is the case with many other religioins:

Hindus beleive in an over-arching god (Brahman) but because 'all is one' and the world is really an illusion (maya) then really I am god, you are god, and the keyboard I'm writing with is god. The essence of the Hindu religion is to become one with the ultimate, and the way to do this is through paying off your karmic deabt until at last you've freed yourself from the wheel of life, death and rebirth. So is is by their works that they at last gain salvation. (or in this case 'oneness')

Buddhists likewise share the belief in becoming 'one with the ultimate' but they believe to gain nirvana (or compleat enlightenment and oblivion) through the Four Nobles Truths, and the Eight Fold path. Again, they are earning their own salvation through pacticing these things.

And lastly in Islam they believe that upon your birth you are assigned two angels to follow you throught the course of your life. One angel takes note of all your good deeds, and one marks down all your bad. When you die you will stand before Allah, and the two angels will read off from their list. If your good deeds outweigh your bad, then you go to heaven; however if your bad deeds are greater than your good then there is fire and brimstone in your near future.

Now there are many more fundamendal differences between my religion and these, and I wish I had time to go more deeply into detail about them (*Hint* *hint* Aragorn want to take a crack at it?) But is essence what I'm trying to get across is that despite the sincerity these peope may have, they and I do not worship the same god, and our beliefs clash (well, my beliefs clash with the muslims', but the Hindu and the Buddhist would roll their eyes and say 'foolish westener, don't you see we're all god?")

Now with this said, you're probably wondering 'well then what makes you so cotten picking sure that YOUR religion is the right one, and everyone else is wrong'; should you wish an answer, I promise I will bore you to death with a page and a half, and I promise not once will I tell you to 'except my beliefs by faith'. I don't know your personal feelings on God, Rosymole but it's allways ticked me off when I've asked (what I thought we anyway) logical questions about the Christain (and other) faiths, and I've been told to 'accept that by faith'. Because my God is the God of Truth I see evidence of him in reality, and will gladly share that with you should you ask.

Ok, well that was too long even for my own good. Rosymole, I hope I didn't scare you off, please post more questions! Anyone want to disagree or add to what I've said.

-And Aragorn, due to a typo I re-read my earlier post and noticed it said 'did' instead of 'didn't' (implying that you believed that Jesus was not the Christ) my sincerest apologies; I grovel for your forgiveness... :)

[Dead Rain]

P.s. Rain, I'm sure Aragorn did believe what he was arguing; people often have to take opposite sides when debating; He seems like a Godly man from his post. (After all he is a Calvinist! lol, sorry!)


i thought that he was that, but he SHOULD HAVE said that he personally did not agree with that which he was arguing for. it just kinda threw me back a sec.

and rosy, as jenny said, there is only ONE God! other gods are idols. and some idols are money and personal possesions while others may be people. the BIble directly teaches against worshiping idols and other gods. the ten commandements sum all that up quite well! and from what i read of Gray's post, she's right. just listen to her. he he. no rather listen to what the BIble teaches, (which is what Gray is telling you so... yeah).

and for future reference, please, everyone, use a capital "G" for the Christian God and a small "g" for other gods.

[Bitter Milton]

Jenny: Fine. I think that the basis for your reasoning is poor. Why would someone who did so much good in the world go to hell, and why would someone who did so much bad go to heaven? If God doesnt judge us on our actions in life(on earth), why did he give us free will at all?

[jennyjenjen56]

Free will is a gift, so that we aren't walking zombies forced to worship the living God. When you want someone to love you and have a relationship with you, you don't want to make them love you. Also free will is so that we can each fufill, if we listen To God and follow His will for our lives, our purpose, and have joy while doing it. Do you think we could really feel love, or joy without free will. The best things in life are because we have free will. Without it we would just be robots. Thats not what God wanted for our lives. Sadly Satan came into play and we chose to listen to him. Sin is the link in all of the bad things that happen in live. Sin began the downward spiral. Since we can't be perfect, read my discription of the arrow and the target on the previous page, we needed someone to cleanse us of our sins and pay the penalty for them, so that we can live for ever in heaven. We all have sinned and therefore are incabable of getting ourselves to Heaven. Hypothetical questions, like Hitler v. Gahndi are stupid really because Hitler would have never accepted Jesus anyway. He's in Hell and as for Gahndi, I don't know the status of his heart, so I can't say. But we can't earn our way to heaven thats for sure. And Jesus's death paid for all sins, if we only accept his cleansing, even the most atrocious sins. All can be forgiven, its the deapth of His love for us. He died, see the passion of the christ, a horrible death for us, he loves us that much and even evil Men like hitler could and would have been forgiven, if only they would have repented and asked Jesus to be lord of their life. It's simple and not simple. It's a matter of the heart, something only Jesus can fully discern.

[GrayCloak]

Jenny I must say I both agree and disagree with you.

I agree with your basis for getting into heaven; Through Jesus and the cleansing of our sins by his blood. However I do disagree (Gasp!) with your statements on free will.

I believe we would both agree that God is omnipotent and eternal, correct? Therefore saying that we as his creations somehow have a will outside of his control would undermine his very nature and godship. God can not be the god of all gods, if we unto ourselves can make choices that he cannot control. I would say that everything in eternity has already been predetermined by God, and that some people he has chosen to show forth his great loving-kindness and grace, while through others he can demonstrate his righteous anger and wrath. (This is called the doctrine of Predestination by the way)

An example of my point is Pharaoh back in the book of Exodus. It says that 'God hardened his heart' not that Pharaoh himself wanted to keep the Israelites in captivity, but rather that it was God's will that Pharaoh continue on in his wickedness so that in the end his judgment upon him could be so much greater.

With this in mind I would also say to Bitter Milton that actions and good works are not our basis for getting into heaven. Our life is not a score card of good vs. bad deeds so we can get into heaven, but instead we should strive to do good BECAUSE Jesus has already covered our sins with his blood, and it should be a natural outworking of our changed hearts.

[jennyjenjen56]

I do agree with you Dead rain and I don't, I say that he gives us the range to make those choices. we can't do anything that goes agains Gods plan, but if we didn't have free will then sin isn't our fault. So we have choices but there are paramiters. And there is predestination to a point. Of course God can make us choose something or feel something. I dare say thats how he leads us to the right choice. But we ultimatly choose our fate. its a difficulte doctrine to grasp. :)

[rosymole]

thank you for your honest and bacled up answers- i appreciate the honesty! I did think of another linked question earlier but have forgotten it now- i've got lots of others too, but i'll limit them to one at a time so as not to overload on the information provided!

[crjr9833]

What jenblabla said. I don't entirely agree.
Yes, humans have free will and they can help what they do. God can use humans for His plan, but we must be willing for him to use us. God does not make us do anything.

[Dead Rain]

Jenny, you mean Gray in that last post of yours, right? i haven't replied in a while. so i'm just checking. i'm just a little confused. the last thing i saw was Milton's Post at the top. so.... i'll..never mind. but did you mean me or Gray?

[Bitter Milton]

Yeah, what are you taliking about jenny?

[Warrior-Poet51088]

God can use humans for His plan, but we must be willing for him to use us. God does not make us do anything.

So, apparently, when we say that God is omnipotent(all-powerful), we, somehow, ahve a power of our own that he can't control???
This is perhaps the single biggest flaw I find to be common to most free will believers(Arminianism, anyone?). I need to get some sleep, but hopefully I'll get to post tomorrow.

[Capstick]

QUOTE: "Jenny: Fine. I think that the basis for your reasoning is poor. Why would someone who did so much good in the world go to hell, and why would someone who did so much bad go to heaven? If God doesnt judge us on our actions in life(on earth), why did he give us free will at all?"-Bitter Milton, Dec. 7

Hi everyone, there's some really good discussion going on here it looks like, so I just had to get involved. I hope I'm not bringing up a dead issue, but I wanted to interact with some things that had been said.

Milton, from reading your post listed above, it looks like you misunderstood some things that people have been saying. A lot of us here are Protestants, and we strongly believe that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ, and that no one can earn salvation - in fact, we believed this so strongly that we separated from the Roman Catholic Church about five hundred years ago :-). Thus, it doesn't matter how much "good" a person does here on earth - we believe that if they don't accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, it does them no good.

Second, I think that most of us here DO believe that God juges us here in this life- the Bible is quite clear on that. However, as I said before, our "works" are not the basis for our salvation.


Now, regarding this whole discussion on free will, I think it can sometimes be a rather hard concept to grasp. As a Calvinist, I believe that God has foreordained everything that happens, and, as Aragorn said, NOTHING is outside of his control (Aragorn, you stated the point clearly enough so I don't think there's any reason for me to attempt to restate it here).

[jennyjenjen56]

Yeah I ment gray! OOOPS! :) I believe we have free will but I also believe in predestination to a point. GOd doesn't controll every action, he could but he doesn't. If God was controlling our every move and every choice then he would be respoinsible for sin. I believe in predestination as in he created us so he knows how we will react to things and what choices we will make. Yet he still lets us make those choices. He is in control, he can controll but lets ua have free will. Its a gift. IMO! :D

[Warrior-Poet51088]

(Aragorn, you stated the point clearly enough so I don't think there's any reason for me to attempt to restate it here).

Why, thank you. And don't worry, I'll let it go to my head.

[Dead Rain]

GOd doesn't controll every action, he could but he doesn't.

ok. whew. i was worried there for a second, jenny. don't scare me like that. man..... whew. load off my mind. i agree with the statement that i quoted of you above. that is what i'm "whew"ing to.

aragorn--haha. you crazy my-brother's-double. you sure do add some laugher here. and i..eh.. won't thank you for that. it's for your own good. trust me. :D

[lsipher]

Instead of posting my two cents. Let's just say that I agree with Grey, Aragorn and Capstick. They articulated it clearer than I could've anyway.

But...Let us not forget, during this discussion/debate, that there are somethings which our limited intellects are not supposed to understand fully, ie..the Trinity, free-will/predestination, ect. It would be arogant, or worse, for us to assume otherwise (ie..the first sin. Anyone?)

- Lou

[Capstick]

Well put Lou - and I don't just mean agreeing with us :-). I have to admit myself that there are some doctrines (predestination/free will, for instance) which I do not completely and fully understand. And, as you said, sometimes we aren't meant to. However, that should be seen as a shortcoming on our part, rather than a flaw in the reasoning or character of God.

For instance, can anyone here who is not a physics major give me a fully-detailed explanation of how and why gravity works (other than simply saying that the earth has a gravitational pull and it causes objects to fall)? Or how about mathematical proof that the earth is round?

In the same way, I think that there are some things that we simply cannot fathom completely because we don't have the intellect, abilities, etc. In other words, we cannot understand them because we are not God.

Any thoughts on this?

[Dead Rain]

hey Capstick, good to see you again.

However, that should be seen as a shortcoming on our part, rather than a flaw in the reasoning or character of God.
~~
In the same way, I think that there are some things that we simply cannot fathom completely because we don't have the intellect, abilities, etc. In other words, we cannot understand them because we are not God.

uhh.. well i don't know. i mean, i don't think i agree with you on that. i mean.... just let me say something and then you tell me if it's what you said or not. i mean....whatever.
God created us, and created us personally(by this i mean each and every one of us in different ways and in same ways). He made those particular things(like the Trinity, ect.) complicated so that we could not understand them. and He created our minds not...eh...knowledgeable(because i can't think of the word i would have use other wise) enough so that we couldn't understand them because He doesn't want us to understand them. once again, i think i may have just re-stated what you said, but...just..yeah.

oh wait. never mind. i miss read your post. Continue....

[Capstick]

That's fine. I was simply trying to say that there are some things that are too complicated for us to fully understand.

P.S. you don't have to agree with me on everything; I won't mind if you have your own opinion :-)

[Dead Rain]

ok. i think that i just misread your post before. and then tried to say what i thought, but i GREATLY doubt that it came out right. so... until Gray gets here and helps me to understand your post or what not, we can just go on to another question. what'do ya say?

[Warrior-Poet51088]

P.S. you don't have to agree with me on everything; I won't mind if you have your own opinion :-)

What??????????? Freedom of speech in...........well, by Americans in cyberspace??!!

[Capstick]

LOL Aragorn, your sarcasm is noted :-).

However, your comment brings up an interesting point, and since, as Rain said, we should probably move on to a different question, here goes (be warned: this is somewhat controversial!):

What are everyone's opinion on the "rights" of free speech, religious tolerance, etc? Are these "good" things? Is religious tolerance a Biblical concept? Why or why not? Do you think that the religious tolerance we have today is what our forefathers had in mind when they drafted the Constitution?

[GrayCloak]

ok. i think that i just misread your post before. and then tried to say what i thought, but i GREATLY doubt that it came out right. so... until Gray gets here and helps me to understand your post or what not, we can just go on to another question. what'do ya say?

Rain, I think what Capstick meant was that there are just some aspects of God's nature and character that we are simply unable to comprehend at this point in time. Take the Trinity for instance; we believe there is one God; however he has three distinct persons; but he is not three gods he is One. I've never heard anyone describe the trinity without falling into a refuted herasy (or making up a new one of their own) I don't think at this point in time we can fully understand some things like this, because we are simply unequipped to.

And Chappy; good to have you back; it never is dull with you around. ;) I'll post on your new question when I have the time.

[Dead Rain]

ok thank you, Gray. i confused myself at first. then i thought that what you said (before you said it) was what Capstick meant, and then i confused myself again. so thank you for clearing that up. and yes, i agree with taht.

[Capstick]

Hey, I found this article on Predestination, and it seemed quite relevant to the previous discussion everyone was having on free will. If HTML works, click <a href="http://highlands-reformed.com/predestination.html">here</a>, otherwise you'll have to copy the link and paste it into your browser. The link is:

http://highlands-reformed.com/predestination.html

I highly recommend that anyone interested in this topic take a look at it! (Gray, Aragorn, and Lou, since all of you appear to be Calvinists I think you'll find it quite interesting).

P.S. I'm still waiting for someone to respond to my previous question :-)

[GrayCloak]

Wow, this guy is brilliant! Actually, I've read him many times before, including this article; I think I've read everything ever written (with the execption of his latest book) by him.