Islam?

[SapphireOfSeptember]

I am just wondering what other beliefs think of Islam.

[CSLewisFan]

I must admit, at first glance, Islam is an attractive creed.

It can be simply summed up in one repeated phrase: la illaha illa Allah! (There is no God but Allah!)
Allah is supposed to be the same God as the one that believers in Jesus and the Jews follow. The full creed of the Muslim is: “There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is His prophet."

The five "rules' or "pillars" of Islam are:

1. The traveling to Mecca at least once, to commemorate the birth of Islam, 622 years before Christ was born.
2. Fasting.
3. Almsgiving (Charity)
4. Ritual prayer five times a day.
5. Of course, professing the creed, “There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is His prophet.”

Some have called Islam the simplification of Christianity; I disagree and think the opposite.

Islam adds to Christianity, for where Jews have only our “Old Testament” Scriptures and Christians add the New Testament, Muslims also add the Quran. In the Quran, Muhammad tells you how to live Jesus' ethic (Jesus is seen only as a man, an ethical teacher). Which he was, but he is so much more.

Islam neither merely simplifies Christianity nor merely adds to it, but reinterprets it. The Muslim interpretation of the New Testament is not the same as the Christian one; the Quran tries to interpret the New Testament as the New interprets the Old.

An illiterate peasant, Mohammed received the Quran by word-for-word dictation from Allah, according to the faith of Islam.

Islam believes in a single, all-just, all-merciful, all-powerful God who created the world and man, insists on obedience to His will, and promises salvation and immortality to believers and those who obey.

I cannot believe in Islam for several reasons.

I am a follower of Jesus Christ.
I do not believe the Bible is inherently flawed. I could not use the Quran as a reliable source to discover more about Jesus, as the Quran is not inspired by God.

Islam ignores Jesus' divinity when they view Jesus only as a good teacher and a holy prophet. Christianity declares that Jesus was crucified; Islam asserts that it only seemed like Jesus was crucified, and that God miraculously "took him up to God, Himself." The Muslim do not believe that Jesus is the great Rescuer of a lifestyle of sin.

Jesus tells us that there is no way to God but through him. I am saved by Jesus' grace and mercy. Muhammad or his teachings are not even part of the picture.


I hope PrinceoftheWest and Basilides can further expound on this, as they and other smart people are much better at explaining what they know, and not just knowing it :)

-Austin

[Gibby]

An illiterate peasant, Mohammed received the Quran by word-for-word dictation from Allah, according to the faith of Islam.

Yes, and my understanding is that "an angel" told him to start writing, and Muhammad didn't, so the angel choked Muhammad 3 times until he agreed to write it down. Also, Muhammad went into a deep depression for 2 years after writing the words down. This doesn't sound like words from God, does it?

Islam believes in a single, all-just, all-merciful, all-powerful God who created the world and man, insists on obedience to His will, and promises salvation and immortality to believers and those who obey.

They also believe that their god can change, too. Or abrogation as they call it.

I'm with you C.S. Lewis fan. Christ is Lord...

[Impreza]

Yes, and my understanding is that "an angel" told him to start writing, and Muhammad didn't, so the angel choked Muhammad 3 times until he agreed to write it down. Also, Muhammad went into a deep depression for 2 years after writing the words down. This doesn't sound like words from God, does it?



They also believe that their god can change, too. Or abrogation as they call it.

I'm with you C.S. Lewis fan. Christ is Lord...

Gibby...He was not chocked. But was given a tight hug.

CSLewisFan...yup...that's the basic things about Islam.

[TimmyofOz]

I love Jesus and I don't want to live like I'm in Arabia in the 6th century AD still. I also don't feel women need to wear bags over their bodies. There is little I can think of that is good about Islam. Especailly the going to hell part. :eek:

[Impreza]

I love Jesus and I don't want to live like I'm in Arabia in the 6th century AD still. I also don't feel women need to wear bags over their bodies. There is little I can think of that is good about Islam. Especailly the going to hell part. :eek:

Most part of the Arabian countries wear casual nowadays. In Islam, every part of the flesh of a women is an aurat, which is forbidden to be seen by any man except by her own husband.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Well, SapphireOfSeptember, I hope you've gotten a few ideas. Let me give you one more, and then hopefully you can give us some feedback.

From my studies of both traditions, one of the biggest differences between Islam and Christianity is how God relates to man.

Islam teaches that what God wants of man is worship done correctly. It teaches that Abraham knew how to worship God correctly, and tried to pass it along to his descendants through his sons Isaac and Ishmael. Unfortunately, the descendants kept losing the true practice of the faith and wandering off into idolatry. God sent various prophets to man to recall him to the true worship, and some obeyed for a while, but the true worship kept getting lost. At last God sent His final word to Muhammed, the perfection of all the earlier revelations (which were only partial). It was to this final, perfect revelation that all men were called to be submitted (muslim).

The pivotal point here is that Islam teaches that men are just creatures who need to perform certain actions to be pleasing to God, but they remain creatures - effectively, slaves of God. Willing, submitted (muslim) slaves of a benevolent Master, perhaps, but slaves nonetheless.

Judaism and Christianity teach that what God wants is His family back. They teach that God created man in a special way, breathing life into him personally, and impressing man with His image. Man, however, rebelled and left God's family to go out on his own. He immediately began reaping the bitter fruit of his rebellion, but God's options were limited - as long as man was sinning, he could not return to God's family because God is utterly holy, and His presence requires perfection. But God did not give up. He began speaking to men and (here's the important part) making covenants with them. A covenant is a family bond; an adoption is a covenant, so is a marriage. Blood brotherhood is a covenant. God made covenants over time with men - with Noah, with Abraham, with the people of Israel through Moses, with David. These covenants were very important, for they were God's steps in bringing man back into His family. They in no way "profited" God; indeed, they cost Him a lot, and man reaped all the benefits - but that is the nature of love.

So, in time, God took on flesh and was born of the virgin Mary. He taught us many good things, but few of them were new. The most important thing He did was make the final, definitive covenenant with mankind. This covenant went beyond the wildest imaginings of man: it was adoption back into God's family. By entering into this covenant, man could be welcomed back into the place he had lost by his rebellion - in fact, to a greater place. But because covenants had to be sealed by blood, Jesus took the radical step of sealing this one with His own blood - which at the same time (by some mysterious means) satisfied the judgement of God against man's sins and washed away the stain of guilt that kept man from coming into the presence of a Holy God.

So that is what we Christians are. We are not just people who believe a certain set of teachings, or willing slaves muslim to a particular set of requirements. We are people who been re-adopted back into God's family. The price is higher than just following rules or assenting to truths. We have to die, which we do in the Sacrament of Baptism, and then live each day letting Christ's life grow within us.

And there is your big difference.

[Parthian King]

Prince of the West has laid out some excellent truths that summarize very well the essentials. Basilides has (elsewhere) made some great points, too. I would like to make a fairly simple but (I think) profound observation of what I think is the key difference between Islam and Christianity: The Cross.

I am not referring to merely the purpose of the Cross, though that is of course part of it. And I am not merely referring to the critical place of the Incarnation in the Christian's worldview (i.e., as the miraculous event of human history) contra the Islamic worldview, though that of course is also inseparable. I am speaking of the very idea that God Himself can not only come down to enter His creation with an end to redeem it (shocking all by itself), but that He chose to do it through a show of weakness and not strength. Now, we are so used to tying it all together (and rightly so) that we can hardly perceive of God Incarnate, bound by time and space, but as a victorious, conquering warrior in His first coming, rather than (as we anticipate Him) in His second. He could have done it that way.

Instead, God chose to be weak not only as any other man (meaning, as compared to God--confined by time and space), but He crowned the whole work with the supreme show of weakness: Crucifixion. We have certainly lost, in spite of all the passion plays, what crucifixion was in the first century. Cicero declared that this horrific humiliation not even be breathed in the same sentence with the name of any Roman citizen. Ancient graffiti found in Rome lampoons Christian worship by displaying a naked man with the head of an ass hanging from a cross. Crucifixion was supremely painful, supremely ugly, supremely humiliating. And Christ embraced it. This means that at the bedrock of the Christian faith lies the concept of a God who not only can be weak, but willingly chose to be weak for mercy's sake. "No servant is above his master, nor a pupil above his teacher." In spite of all the Christian slamming that has gone on (ironically, much of it by other Christians), at the end of the day Christians who see the cross are willing to be weak and find strength in it. True Christianity, historical Christianity is therefore shot through with divine irony and paradox: In brokenness is strength, in outward defeat is inward advantage, and power is perfected in weakness.

Islam denies the cross (i.e., that it ever happened) because it is unfathomable that a great prophet would be so executed. Weakness is not strength, strength is strength. God is never weak, but only ever strong. Defeat is defeat, and victory is victory. There is no irony, there is no paradox. The God they see is not a God who allows things to happen apart from His will and weeps for those things even as He folds them into His eternal purposes, but "everything that happens is the will of Allah" in a much more direct and fatalistic way.

[underthefryingpan]

my dad has several muslim friends at work(he's a civil engineer) and has a great respect for them.

i believe they have part of the truth such as, there's only one god. but they don't have the whole truth (such as jesus christ came to save us and we need to be baptised etc) therefore we need to pray for their conversion.
if a muslim has never heard of jesus in his life, and yet leads a good moral life; i think God might let him go to heaven. but if he rejects the gospel once he is exposed to it, or leads an immoral muslim life, he is in big trouble in the afterlife. it is a heresey after all, i can't consider it as beneficial as catholism.

it is rather like the last battle isn't it?

i'm sure there's many different degrees of islam and not all muslims go around in burkas.

[Gibby]

if a muslim has never heard of jesus in his life, and yet leads a good moral life; i think God might let him go to heaven. but if he rejects the gospel once he is exposed to it, or leads an immoral muslim life, he is in big trouble in the afterlife. it is a heresey after all, i can't consider it as beneficial as catholism.



The bible is clear about the way to the father.

John 14:6

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

[SapphireOfSeptember]

You see, I am a devote muslim. I would just like to get a few points straight since a user has misunderstood a point. The Angel told Muhammad to READ not to write. To Repeat the words of God, to memorize them and explain it to others. He did NOT choke Muhammad, he said "Read, Oh Muhammad the words of your Lord." in surah Al-qalam verse 1-3. And he repeated this 3 times because Muhammad did not understand what the Angel Gabriel wanted him to do since he was illiterate. Muslims believe that God shaped Adam from clay(soil) and breathed life into him, we believe in the story of Adam and Eve, and the Fruit tree. How satan whispered to Eve to eat from the tree when God told Adam and Eve not too. Since in our faith, God Created the world, and man, he is the Owner of the Universe, the Creator. So we are his slaves in a fact. He owns us and to him we will return. In islam, we believe that a believeer can create a personal relationship with god. It is not just a set of rules we follow because Muhammad (Peace be upon him) told us too.

[Gibby]

Thanks for that clarification, Sapphire of September. I don't personally have the Quran and I had heard this many times and found other sites that stated this as well (some of them looked like legitimate scholarly sites also). Frankly, I was not too comfortable quoting the "choking" story without seeing the actual verses in front of me so I apologizehttp://www.narniafans.com/forum/images/icons/icon11.gif. Do you have access to the verse in question and could you post it?

[PrinceOfTheWest]

So we are his slaves in a fact. He owns us and to him we will return. And right there is one of the greatest differences between Islam and Christianity. As Jesus says, speaking through the Apostle John, "See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are." (1 John 3) and through the Apostle Paul "So through God you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son then an heir." (Gal 4).

It is true that we have no right to claim anything more than creaturehood, but God by His grace and through the sacrifice of Jesus has granted us this adoption.

[she-elfwarrior19]

Yes, and my understanding is that "an angel" told him to start writing, and Muhammad didn't, so the angel choked Muhammad 3 times until he agreed to write it down. Also, Muhammad went into a deep depression for 2 years after writing the words down. This doesn't sound like words from God, does it?



They also believe that their god can change, too. Or abrogation as they call it.

I'm with you C.S. Lewis fan. Christ is Lord...

I also believ that Christ is the Lord, he dies on the the cross and Jesus is God's only son and that "whoever believes in him shall not parish but have eternal life."john 3:16.
And no those words definately dont sound like they are from God.

[unleavened]

The big difference (according to a muslim who converted to Christianity) is this:
Christianity's God is Loving. Islam's God is not.

In fact Christianity centralizes around love (after all, God is love!). No other religion's God does.

[Charn_Tim]

In addition to the above differences noted by others, I would like to add my own 2 cents on the difference between Islam (and all other religions for that matter) and Christianity. I guess this just says what the others have said a bit differently, but it is a story from the book, What's so Amazing About Grace, by Phillip Yancey. (I think this quote is actually in "inkspot's thread of amazing grace" too, but whatever).


During a British conference on comparative religions, experts from around the world debated what, if any, belief was unique to the Christian faith. They began eliminating possibilities. Incarnation? Other religions had different versions of gods appearing in human form. Resurrection? Again, other religions had accounts of return from death. The debate went on for sometime until CS Lewis wandered into the room. "What's the rumpus about?" he asked, and heard in reply that his colleagues were discussing Christianity's unique contribution among world religions. Lewis responded, "Oh, that's easy. It's grace."

After some discussion, the conferees had to agree. The notion of God's love for us coming to us free of charge, no strings attached, seems to go against every instinct of humanity. The Buddhist eight-fold path, the Hindu doctrine of karma, the Jewish covenant, and Muslim code of law-each of these offers a way to earn approval. Only Christianity dares to make God's love unconditional.
So no religion besides Christianity (including Islam of course) offers the free gift of God's grace to pardon our sins (by the cross, of course-as others have pointed out on this thread).

[SapphireOfSeptember]

The Cross and the Crescent: An Interfaith Dialogue between Christianity and Islam

This is a good book I think you should read.

[SapphireOfSeptember]

Quran Describes God's Nature Exactly

The Quran is clear on who God is and who He is not. There is no room left for doubt after reading the Quran in the Arabic languge: God is One. He is the only Creator, Sustainer and Owner of the Universe. He has no partners. He has no relatives; wives, children or offspring. He is not like His creation and He does not need it for His existance, while all the time the creation is totally dependent on Him. His attributes are clearly spelled out as the epitome of each and every one. He is for instance, the All-Knowing; the All-Hearing; the All-Seeing; the All-Forgiving; the All- Loving; the All-Merciful; the Only One God. There is never a contradiction to this found anywhere in the Quran.

[SapphireOfSeptember]

Scientific Miracles in Quran

The scientific miracles of the Quran could not have been understood at that time, yet today we take for granted the many things included in the revelation of the Quran. Some include mentioning: The formation of embryo in the womb of the mother (surah 98); deep seas partitions; waters that do not mix; clouds and how they make rain and how lightning is caused by ice crystals; formation of the earth's mountains deep underground; orbits of planets and stars and moons - and even the mention of space travel (surah 55:33).

[SapphireOfSeptember]

Quran Challanges Readers

The Quran makes the clear challange, that if you are in doubt about it - then bring a book like it. Also, to bring ten chapters like it and then finally, to bring one single chapter like it. 1,400 years - and no one has been able to duplicate it's beauty, recitation, miracles and ease of memorization. Another challange for the unbelievers to consider; "If this (Quran) were from other than Allah, you would find within it many contradictions." And yet, another challange offered by Allah in the Quran is for the unbelievers to look around for evidences. Allah says He will show them His signs within themselves and on the farthest horizons.

[TimmyofOz]

Most part of the Arabian countries wear casual nowadays. In Islam, every part of the flesh of a women is an aurat, which is forbidden to be seen by any man except by her own husband.
Like I said women shouldn't have to wear bags over theit entire body. I've been to some Arab nations and I've seen women that every part of their body is heavly covered. That is wrong!!!!!! I am very affraid of Fascist-Islamists. Given a chance they will do to me and other non-Islams what Hitler tried to do to the Jews. And right now I don't see any moderate Islamists. When fascist Christian Germany was killing Jews, Christian USA and Britian fought to distroy it. I don't see any Islamist nation fighting to distroy fascist-Islamist.

[SapphireOfSeptember]

no! women don't have to if they don't want to. at least not to wear those heavy bags your talking about. it depends. i am a muslim and i try to wear modest cloths (long-sleeve and long skirts or pants, jeans, etc) and a nice hijab(scarf)
islam does not force a women to cover her whole body. only her face and her hands and feet are allowed to show. other than that she has to cover up the rest of her modestly.
actually, when women wear those "bags" it very cooling. since its hot over in the mid-east , women wear those over shorts and tank tops usually.
it can be whatever.

[SapphireOfSeptember]

to tell you the truth timmyofoz, being a fascist is NOT AT ALL islamic. those things that are happening right now that are possibly coming from "islam" is not at all acceptable if you are following the religion correctly. other islamic countries are not doing anything about it because they don't have strong armies, etc. so they can't just barge in trying to save the world from wrong-muslims followers who think that God told them to kill other people. that is just WRONG. america had big, strong armies. thats a difference

[kirke]

hmmm thats an interesting relationship... muslum to facist... ill have to go back and see how he got that idea


edit- interesting. Islam looks doun very badly on killing,

". . . Do not take life, which Allah has made sacred, except through justice and the law. He orders this so that you may acquire wisdom" (6:151)

to kill one innocent person according to islam is exactly the same thing as killing all of humanity. The terrorists used the excuse of dying in an act of war you will go to nervana, but killing innocents is an act of terrorism not war. i think you get the idea of all muslums being facist murderers from either A) what others said after 911. B) taking the Quaran out of context. or C) you actually know nothing about it and since Alqueda (sp) claims they are muslum you think they sum the religion up. none of those choices gives true muslums the chance to show what Islam is really aboutl.

[Parthian King]

I am not a Muslim, obviously, but for the sake of both fairness and accuracy it should be said that what has been branded as Islamo-Fascism is a form of political authoritarianism that is atypical of the practice of most Muslims. These people do base what they do upon the Quran as they read it, but then again, the Crusaders based what they did upon the Christian Scriptures as they saw them. The disconnect is that Mohammed and his followers were in fact conquering warriors of the early Middle Ages, and Jesus Christ and his followers were pacifists, at least in the personal and religious sense; they won converts through entirely different means. Therefore I would contend that todays "Muslim" extremists have not been as far from the spirit of their perceived founder as "Christian" extremists have been from theirs. Be that as it may, it is not politically accurate to say that all Islam is fascist in the political sense. Their extremism is certainly fascist-like in many ways, but many Muslims abhor what these extremists have done.

SapphireofSeptember (my favorite stone, BTW), I appreciate your measured response. We Americans have been wounded (and not just Americans--our friends the Brits have been hit, too), and sometimes those wounds lead to fear (as Timmy confessed), and that leads to certain statements that aren't meant to be a sweeping as they sound. TimmyofOz can speak for himself, but I think his point is that even vocal support for action against extremists is muted among certain Islamic countries, and sometimes we hear support for extremists from people who have claimed to be friends; that hurts Americans when we see American blood being spilled in the fight. But what we as Americans often don't measure is the very, very deep wounds of a region and a people much more ancient than our own, and so many misunderstandings and conflicts over the centuries that it makes one's head spin to try and sort it all out. Those problems, lamentably, seem to be getting even more complex; it is hardly only Western blood that is being spilled. I do appreciate, though, your sentiments of strong opposition to violent extremism. I enjoy hearing from you.

I also think it may be better to keep things to a discussion of the differences between Islam and Christianity in their purest religious forms, and not take the discussion onto political grounds. I'm not a mod, but it seems kind of unfair to force SapphireofSeptember to explain the actions of a violent fringe, though I'm glad if it has cleared something up for someone. I personally am more interested in discussing issues of spiritual truth.

[Impreza]

Like I said women shouldn't have to wear bags over theit entire body. I've been to some Arab nations and I've seen women that every part of their body is heavly covered. That is wrong!!!!!! I am very affraid of Fascist-Islamists. Given a chance they will do to me and other non-Islams what Hitler tried to do to the Jews. And right now I don't see any moderate Islamists. When fascist Christian Germany was killing Jews, Christian USA and Britian fought to distroy it. I don't see any Islamist nation fighting to distroy fascist-Islamist.

There are some countries where there are lots of Moderate Islamists. Just take a look at Malaysia. Majority population are Malays who're Muslims, but living in peace together with minorities like Chinese + Indian + Other races who makes up another 50% of the population. Malaysia's a very peace loving country.

[Johan 72109]

Like I said women shouldn't have to wear bags over theit entire body. I've been to some Arab nations and I've seen women that every part of their body is heavly covered. That is wrong!!!!!! I am very affraid of Fascist-Islamists. Given a chance they will do to me and other non-Islams what Hitler tried to do to the Jews. And right now I don't see any moderate Islamists. When fascist Christian Germany was killing Jews, Christian USA and Britian fought to distroy it. I don't see any Islamist nation fighting to distroy fascist-Islamist.

I'd have to disagree with some of your points TimmyofOz... :o While your viewpoint is understandable, considering the way America has suffered over the past few years, you have to consider that your statements are perhaps a little broad.

In this case, I'd suggest that comparisons of religious history in terms of politics and war is rather pointless, since when religion gets involved with politics and war, it mutates into something that is a far cry from the original religion itself (if that makes sense... :o )

Your example of WWII, in particular pertaining to the killing of the Jews, is in fact a flawed one. Firstly, both Britain and Germany were only nominally Christian at this time, especially in the case of Germany. As to the idea of Christian countries uniting... What about Soviet Russia, which suffered the worst casualties (27 million - I think I can safely say this is more losses than those suffered by Britain and America, throughout military history, all added together... :( ), lost (then regained) the most land, and (it has been argued by many prominent historians) contributed the most to winning the war... and was a totalitarian atheistic nation, not a Christian one. As for the comment about the killing of the Jews prompting other nations to intervene, in fact there's substantial evidence to suggest that the outside world didn't care about the plight of the Jews until it was too late, even when they were realising what was going on. Jews were frequently barred from emigrating to countries that were 'overcrowded' (such as Britain and America), and there were fierce complaints when they did. A very brave member of the Polish army, a Jew named Szmul Zygielbojm, managed to escape a POW camp, find a plane, and fly across the Third Reich to land in England. Here he explained the impending German 'Final Solution' that as yet had not been implemented, and begged on a radio broadcast sent to all the world for something to be done to help European Jewry, most of whom were still alive. As it was, nothing changed, the military plans were not centred around bringing the war to a close before a genocide could be carried out (which may well have been possible), and 6 million innocents were killed in gas chambers... 'Christian' nations did not particularly bother about the Jews until it was far too late.

And, in fact, Islamic countries HAVE been involved in fighting the more hardline states, though not to as large an extent as America and Britain in WWII, simply because they don't have the resources. Pakistani soldiers and civilian contractors have fought (and died) in both Afghanistan and Iraq. The Afghani war was fought to a large extent by the Northern Alliance, who fought, died (sometimes by being bombed accidentally by their Coalition allies, one prominent example being in Qalai Janghi prison camp, where an inmate uprising was suppressed by US airstrikes which also destroyed the local Northern Alliance HQ).

In addition, I have several Muslim friends who are very moderate, very nice people.

Hehe, getting off the soapbox now... :o

[TimmyofOz]

I'm not trying to be mean. There was a time about 12 years ago when I met a teenage Muslim girl, and being very impressed with her faith. But after seeing how the Muslim nations have behaved these last 10 years, those ascribing that faith need to do a lot of explaining. As far as World War II, first, the Soviet Union would have never gone to war with Germany except that Hitler invaded Russia, breaking a non-aggression treaty. Stalin had no problem with Hitler till then. Second I'm sorry the United States and her allies couldn't win the war any faster. We were fighting as hard as we could and the Germans were resisting. Yes, it would have been nice if we could have liberated the death camps a year or two earlier thus saving millions of Jews. But bombing death camp would not have ended the war sooner which is the only way we could have saved the Jews. Last, Israel belongs to the Jews, take it up with God. Mohammed visiting Jerusalem in the spirit doesn't cut it, any more than the LDS claim that Jesus visited American. There is no historical evidence that Mohammed ever visited Jerusalem.

[TimmyofOz]

If you read this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution) you will see that Hitler's final solution started after America entered the war. To say that the USA wasn't trying to win the war hard enough is a rotten thing to say about the hundred of thousands of Americans that gave their lives to defeat Germany.

[Seravian]

Like Parthian king, I would like to discuss about spiritual issues, not politic ones.

Not that I want to ignore reality, but I think war and such would be off topic. And words like "rotten" don't help with the Chistian mood one is granted from the Chronicles of Narnia. ;)

I am very thankful to those depicting the image of God for both christian and Muslims. I didn't know about the differences with the very important concept of Freedom: to choose between good and evil, either as child of God that freely chooses within his Heart to go to Him, or as an obedient creature fulfilling the Will of His mighty absolute Master.

[kirke]

know your turning a stereotype against muslums to defending the US in WW2? someone used a simple point to show that calling the entire religion bad because of one terrorist group is a bad idea, and you responded with 2 posts totaly unrelated to Islam.

Yes some countries that practice Islam have groups that have totally messed up what the Quran says, but that doesnt mean you should say all of Islam (or all of the country) is bad...

[kirke]

if we are to take it the way you are saying Christianity is the worst religion on earth...
there are several "christian groups" such as the Church of Jesus Christ Christians which are NAZI's and the Peoples Temple

why cannot there not be "islamic groups"

[TimmyofOz]

know your turning a stereotype against muslums to defending the US in WW2? someone used a simple point to show that calling the entire religion bad because of one terrorist group is a bad idea, and you responded with 2 posts totaly unrelated to Islam.

Yes some countries that practice Islam have groups that have totally messed up what the Quran says, but that doesnt mean you should say all of Islam (or all of the country) is bad...
I was reponding to Johan 72109 about his comments about whether the USA took its war against Germany serious enough.
As far as who is bad and who is not. People aren't bad just sinners. Ideas are bad. Islam is a bad idea that turn people away from Jesus. The only way Muslems will enter heaven is if the Bible is wrong.

[Johan 72109]

My point about the Allies being capable of saving the Jewish population of Europe is not meant to be 'rotton' to the thousands who died... Sorry if you got that impression... :o I understand, and am greatly thankful for, the sacrifices people made.
But the fact remains, the Allies could quite possibly have ended the war sooner, or at least managed to liberate large sections of Europe sooner, though it would have been more expensive, monetarily and in lives lost (though bear in mind that delay cost four million jewish lives and the lives of many others in minority groups). At least they could have allowed in more Jewish immigrants. Evidence for this ranges from letters and news articles of the time (displayed in famous museums such as the Holocaust memorial in the Imperial War Museum), and books, such as 'While 6 Million Died'. My point remains, The Allies still have culpability in the deaths of the Jews. As to your point about Soviet Russia, bear in mind that America only joined the war after Pearl Harbour. Russia after Barbarossa in 1941, America after Pearl Harbour in 1941 - we're talking very similar events, even if Pearl Harbour was smaller scale than Barbarossa. The war was not about preventing atrocities against the Jews, though it should have been. Anyway, major side-tracking here, sorry... :o If you disagree on any points here (I've been wrong before), perhaps PM me, or start a seperate thread or something, I dunno... :)

I also have to say, I agree with Kirke - these Muslim radicals are a minority, just like our Christian radicals.

[CSLewisFan]

Anyway, major side-tracking here, sorry... :o If you disagree on any points here (I've been wrong before), perhaps PM me, or start a seperate thread or something, I dunno... :)

This is a cool discussion, but I think a seperate thread would be best. :)

-Austin

[TimmyofOz]

OK, let's talk about the teachings of Islam. Let's start with Allah. Allah is not the Arab word for the Jewish-Christian God "YHWH". Allah is an ancient Arab moon god that Muhammad claimed did all the acts that God did. Allah didn't do any of the divine acts in the Bible any more than did the golden calf.
Islam claims that the Bible is corrupted, while the Koran is perfect.
Islam teaches that Jesus Christ was neither crucified nor resurrected; therefore, it is impossiple that salvation can be had through faith in Christ.

[kirke]

you know its not very often that i see someone use YHWH for Yahweeh but it is accurate. It is kind of difficult for me to post against you, because i am myself christian. I will leave the Christian bashing to any atheists or muslums that you have bashing.

I cannot understand what your point is timmy. I mean this board, as i understand it, is supposed to be about learning about the worlds most popular religion (Islam), but everything you say is set to say that Islam and muslums are just ignorant and pointless, or atleast thats the feeling you give to me. I know you want to get your beliefs said, but if you look around 90% of the threads in this section are about Christianity... cannot just 1 be set aside from the Christian belief to the Islamic? It almost sounds by the way you talk you are trying to tell them they are wrong and need to convert, but the fact is you cannot convince someone to give up the beliefs that they have grown up on just by saying your wrong over the internet.

[Seravian]

I openly agree with Mr. Tumnus!!!

[Saruman]

I cannot understand what your point is timmy. I mean this board, as i understand it, is supposed to be about learning about the worlds most popular religion (Islam), but everything you say is set to say that Islam and muslums are just ignorant and pointless, or atleast thats the feeling you give to me. I know you want to get your beliefs said, but if you look around 90% of the threads in this section are about Christianity... cannot just 1 be set aside from the Christian belief to the Islamic? It almost sounds by the way you talk you are trying to tell them they are wrong and need to convert, but the fact is you cannot convince someone to give up the beliefs that they have grown up on just by saying your wrong over the internet.

TimmyofOz was presently presenting some facts concerning Islam and Christianity. I don't get anywhere from his post that he is referring to Muslims as being either arrogant or ignorant, or even pointless. He has every right to say what he wills, just as much as any Muslim, or Buddhist, or Catholic, or Protestant, or Hindu, or rock-worshipper, or Indian-spiritist, or satanist, or atheist, or agnostic, or gnostic, has to say about anything on this forum. And who says that Islam, or Buddhism, or Atheism, or Hinduism, etc., cannot be wrong? They can't all be correct, that much is certain.

[inkspot]

LOL, that's right, Curumo. I think Timmy was just saying:
* Allah is not the same word as Yahweh and referring to a theory discussed in another thread that actually Allah refers to a pre-Islamic moon god which was worshipped in the form of a meteor shard that is still in existence today. I cannot find the other thread or the theory, can anyone help me out? This isn't intended to disrespect Islam, but it's a theory I have heard before about its origins. Oh, here is a link, I don't know how reliable it is:
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-meteorite-worship.htm
* Muslims don't believe that Christ died on the cross and would not respect a God who did. This I have heard from Muslim friends.

Anyway, let's all respectful of one another; not just Christians be respectful of Muslims, which goes without saying, but Christians be respectful of other Christians, too. Thanx!

[kirke]

curumo i think you are looking at the wrong post... im talking about the one where muslums are "facist killers"

[Saruman]

curumo i think you are looking at the wrong post... im talking about the one where muslums are "facist killers"

I didn't realize that. I thought you were responding directly to his last post. Nevertheless, now that I have read his post, I think he was trying to make a point concerning those who actually live by every single word of the Quran for, as we see in Israel, the groups of Arabic peoples that call themselves Palestinians (based off an extinct group of Greek peoples called the Philistines), continuously and violently attack through homicide bombings. The men and women, boys and girls, who strap themselves with explosives and rejoice at the death of the Jews (and of others) do so because they are taught by sheikhs that it is what they are supposed to do.

Barbara Walters had an interview with different peoples of different faiths (Islam, Buddhism, Atheism, etc.). Her first interview dealt with a prison inmate, a Muslim, who shared that those young men who sacrifice themselves to kill off a Jew will be promised with "seventy-two young women, who are perpetual virgins." Author and long-time student of prophecy Hal Lindsey has gone into even greater depths and details concerning the holy jihad declared against those who refuse to accept Allah.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that all Muslims are like this (for many are moderate and do not practice many of the creeds found in the Quran), but I believe TimmyofOz has rather nailed it on the head in a way. When the so-called Christian Nazi Germany began to eliminate the Jews (part of a deeper spiritual warfare that's taking place), the Christian nations of USA and Britain fought to stop them and, by God's grace, we succeeded. And not least of all who helped Nazi Germany in the "kampf" to eliminate the Jews were the late Yasir Arafat, an Egyptian, and other Islamist leaders.

Let me reiterate to make it clear that I don't believe all Muslims are like this; sadly, however, a vast majority of them are. One need only to read the newspapers concerning the happenings in Jerusalem to know what's going on. Even better, the Word of God already spoke of this matter long ago:

Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about.... And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it (Zechariah 12:2-3).

[kirke]

where did you hear the palastinians where from the philistines??? if thats true its kinda ironic that they are in a constant fight with Israel huh...

anyways back on subject, it isnt the majority of muslums who do that... if you read those newspapers they will do the exact things we do in america... the stories they cover are atleast 2/3 (easily more most of the time) bad things. i cannot remember the last time i have seen the front page article of my local paper be about something good that people are doing

[Saruman]

You've misunderstood. The Palestinians call themselves Palestinians because of the name of the land when the Roman caeser took it over; he renamed it "Palestine" out of spite of the Jews. The Philistines were a seafaring folk descended from the Greeks who now no longer exist. The Arabs call themselves Palestinians. Either they are from different Arabic countries (which many of them are) or they are originally from the land of Israel, and are, in truth, Israelites (by definition of the name of the country only, not necessarily by heritage).

Perhaps the media covers a lot of bad stuff because there is seldom anything good worth reporting in the news. These days are full of sorrow.

[kirke]

i think they cover mostly bad stuff anymore because people are more interested in terrorists killing people than say middle school kids helping senior citizens.

[TimmyofOz]

LOL, that's right, Curumo. I think Timmy was just saying:
* Allah is not the same word as Yahweh and referring to a theory discussed in another thread that actually Allah refers to a pre-Islamic moon god which was worshipped in the form of a meteor shard that is still in existence today. I cannot find the other thread or the theory, can anyone help me out? This isn't intended to disrespect Islam, but it's a theory I have heard before about its origins. Oh, here is a link, I don't know how reliable it is:
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-meteorite-worship.htm
* Muslims don't believe that Christ died on the cross and would not respect a God who did. This I have heard from Muslim friends.

Anyway, let's all respectful of one another; not just Christians be respectful of Muslims, which goes without saying, but Christians be respectful of other Christians, too. Thanx!

Of course inkspot, I will mind your recommendations. You know I think the world for you. :) I am not trying to be mean. The difference between Islam and other world religions (Hinduism and Budhism) to the Christian is that Mohammad inspired by the Enemy created Islam to counter the spreading of the Christian faith by taking certain biblical characters and bastardizing them into a religion that is legalistic and does nothing to save people. Those other religions being older and from another part of the world has nothing in their basic doctrine about Jesus. Islam's basic doctrine creates a different Jesus Christ and so according to the I John 2:18-23. are from the antichrist. The Islamo-fascist want to create a world caliphate from Spain to Malaysia where Christians are either killed or are second class rightless subjects. That is exactly what Hilter tried to do to the Jews. It is hard to have a dialog with people (even nice people) that accept a religion that's goal would distroy Christianity.

[TimmyofOz]

Actally inspot that web sit you referenced is even harder on Islam than I was. :D

[inkspot]

Actally inspot that web sit you referenced is even harder on Islam than I was. :D
Oh, sorry, I just did a google search and that's one of the first sites that came up. I don't know anything about the site, but that it mentions this moon god/meteor thing.

The problem with a discussion of Islam is that it is apparently divided into many sects which differ on the proper way to live a Koran-honoring life. The fact cannot be denied that a good many Islamic people in various nations of the world have been taught that hatred and terror are key. What is troubling is that more moderate Muslims seem to fear the reprisals of the terrorists (who can blame them?) and do not speak up much in condemnation of terrorist acts or in favor of peace. Likewise it is difficult for a moderate in an extremist land to take any action to stop the terror tactics. This is especially true in the Israel/Palestine situation where radicals rule, and non-radicals are quickly done-away with, from my understanding of the situation.

It seems to me that "radical Christianity" has at times been aggressive in much the same way, but that today if a "Christian" sect began using weapons of terror, every other Christian church would soundly condemn it and do what was possible to stop it. But perhaps I am overly optimistic.

Oh, I forgot: earlier in this Thread, Sapphire averred that Muslim women do not have to cover up -- that it is a choice for them whether to wear the complete covering. But I do not think in many nations, and in certain communities within other nations, that there is any choice. At least, this is my understanding from reading the news and other sources.

[TimmyofOz]

inkspot

It seems to me that "radical Christianity" has at times been aggressive in much the same way, but that today if a "Christian" sect began using weapons of terror, every other Christian church would soundly condemn it and do what was possible to stop it. But perhaps I am overly optimistic.
I agree inky, I was once involved with radical pro-life groups, but as they started to talk about a time when it might be ok to go beyond peaceful protests and personally protesting specfic abortionist, I dropped out of the movement. I knew that violence would be just around the corner. I am still pro-life just not as active. I'm glad I didn't get your wrath against me earlier. :D

[Saruman]

It seems to me that "radical Christianity" has at times been aggressive in much the same way, but that today if a "Christian" sect began using weapons of terror, every other Christian church would soundly condemn it and do what was possible to stop it. But perhaps I am overly optimistic.

Oh, I forgot: earlier in this Thread, Sapphire averred that Muslim women do not have to cover up -- that it is a choice for them whether to wear the complete covering. But I do not think in many nations, and in certain communities within other nations, that there is any choice. At least, this is my understanding from reading the news and other sources.

If they truly follow the teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, then they would sharply condemn any such terrorism. No man, I believe, can be called a born-again Christian if he chooses to engage in any form of terrorism/violence, and those like Timmy has mentioned certainly need to do some praying and rethinking about their decisions in life. They are not being a witness of Christ in any way.

As for Muslim women wearing berkas, they are required to do so in most Muslim countries, from head to foot, with only their eyes showing. It is part of their religious culture, unless I am mistaken.

[SapphireOfSeptember]

You might want to check out this islamic sight. very interesting...
http://www.harunyahya.com/

[TimmyofOz]

Well, that web sit sure set me straight about Jesus not being the Son of God. :p, I'm sorry I won't be mean. But don't tell us to read a web site or as they use to do shove a phamplet in my hand and ask for money. This is a
dialog. Why would Islam make me a better person, when I already have a personal relationship with God. My sin have been forgiven and I am going to be with Jesus forever. Are you going to tell me my Bible is corrupted and I don't have a relationship with God? If all I know about the bible is wrong, why should I listen to Mohammad views about God or Jesus. Did Mahammad preform miricles as great as Jesus. Did he fulfill biblical prophecy? Of course the bible is too corrupt to know.

[SapphireOfSeptember]

:( Why are you taking this so offensivly? I never even mentioned that the bible was corrupted! Even check so for your self, did I even mention corruption? We believe that most of the things mentioned in the bible are correct. We do believe in the Messiah, as you have probably seen on the site.
I am not trying to force you over to Islam, it is not right to force someone out of a religion the are comfortable with, but all I was trying to do was give an idea of what Islam is all about.

[TimmyofOz]

I'm sorry, I know your just a 14 year old girl and Islam is the religion of your parents, but people are blowing themselves up daily in the name of Islam and Allah. My God would never ask me to strap on a bomb so I could blow people up. I will try not to be so offensive and just pray for you that you can come to know Jesus and find a way out of Islam without your family coming after you.

[inkspot]

The website Sapphire linked to had clear topics on "Islam is against terrorism," and "Pacifism of Islam" and what have you, so i don't think Sapphire and her family are representatives of the radicals you fear, Timmy. That's why it is difficult to have a discussion of Islam: there are too many different sects that each believe the Koran says something different. Some radicals believe death in suicide bombing of infidels is their key to paradise, whereas some moderates believe that Islam is a religion of peace. To keep returning to the idea of terrorism in a discussion with Sapphire would be the same as to keep returning to the Crusades in a discussion of Christianity. While I, too, believe Jesus is the Son of God and the only way to salvation, I don't want Sapphire to think she is disrespected or unwanted here, because that's not true. I don't think Sapphire denies the existence of radical Islamic terrorism, but I think she has made it clear, she is not part of it.

[waterhogboy]

True - if I was undecided unbeliever viewing this conversation right now, I'd probably be siding with Sapphire because shes stating her view in a far more mature, peaceful and polite manner, despite her age...

[kirke]

I'm sorry, I know your just a 14 year old girl and Islam is the religion of your parents, but people are blowing themselves up daily in the name of Islam and Allah. My God would never ask me to strap on a bomb so I could blow people up. I will try not to be so offensive and just pray for you that you can come to know Jesus and find a way out of Islam without your family coming after you.
timmy you SERIOUSLY need to stop that crap... just because some radicals say they belong to a certain religion doesnt mean its true... look at the people who hold up signs that say stuff like "God hates Qu**rs" or David Kuresh and the people who said they were christian and drank cyanide punch to kill themselves in god's name

just because some people say they are islamic (or in as ur saying the suicide bombers, who are insugenents (sp) but they dont say they are islamic) does not mean that that is what they really are. Alqueda is not muslum, these suicide bombers are not muslum... if you search the koran it says that if you kill one innocent person then you might as well have killed all humanity (and dont try to say that it means your not innocent if your not islamic cause it doesnt)

[kirke]

True - if I was undecided unbeliever viewing this conversation right now, I'd probably be siding with Sapphire because shes stating her view in a far more mature, peaceful and polite manner, despite her age...


odd you say that because i am a christian and with the way this conversation keeps going i am siding up with sapphire

[SapphireOfSeptember]

Terrorism is a crime against humanity. It is a brutal attack on innocent people. Islam is a religion that means "peace". In the Koran, the Holy Book of Islam, God commands believers to bring peace and security to the world. Terrorism and all other mischief on Earth are the very acts that Muslims are commanded by God to stand against. The Islamic morality is the cure for terrorism, not the source of it. Those who resort to or support terrorism in the name of Islam are in a great error. They are committing a crime which God has cursed in the Koran. All true Muslims denounce terrorism of any kind, and share the sorrows of its victims.

[inkspot]

There, that should make Timmy feel better. Now, Sapphire, I understand you are a teenager, so I admire you for opening this thread and seeking to educate people about Islam. In Christianity, we feel we are "saved" when we believe on Jesus as Messiah or Savior. That means, His sacrifice cancels our sins, and we are allowed to be with Him in heaven when we die.

What does Islam teach is required for a person to be saved, or guaranteed that they will go to heaven after this life? Is "sin" a concept in Islam, and must a person somehow deal with their sin problem in order to get to heaven?

[SapphireOfSeptember]

There, that should make Timmy feel better. Now, Sapphire, I understand you are a teenager, so I admire you for opening this thread and seeking to educate people about Islam. In Christianity, we feel we are "saved" when we believe on Jesus as Messiah or Savior. That means, His sacrifice cancels our sins, and we are allowed to be with Him in heaven when we die.

What does Islam teach is required for a person to be saved, or guaranteed that they will go to heaven after this life? Is "sin" a concept in Islam, and must a person somehow deal with their sin problem in order to get to heaven?

In Islam, every human makes sins, it's in our nature. The way we are guaranteed heaven is if we follow the ways of Muhammad(Peace be upon Him), and the words of the Qur'an, And a true, and sincere belief in Him, (no doubting that there even is a god). God set us a way of life for which he told us to live upon. When one makes a sin, or wants to get rid of a sin, they seek forgiveness from God, which God gives forgiveness of sins by us praying to Him, making Du'aa(This is a way when we raise our palms up to chest level(as if we are catching something) and say to God to forgive our sins, or any needs we might be in need of). Also, by doing a good deed with your intention to God, God will erase a sin you might have. The Prophet once mentioned that even if a person had sins as much as the sea, God will forgive them if the seek forgiveness from Him.

[Seravian]

Please, let us not confuse the meanings of being "radical" (the one who tries to act in consequence with his convictions) with "fundamentalist" (the ones who act fanatically and break the law of love with self-explñoding bombs, phrases like "God hates fags" and etc. :( )

Saphire: Thank you for giving us the chance to get to know your religion according to your own experience. ;)

[inkspot]

Good, Sapphire, some of what you say is similar to what we believe as Christians. We base the forgiveness on belief in Christ and His sacrifice of atonement, but we likewise believe that no matter how terrible your sins or how many you have, God can forgive you. It's a very comforting thing. Of course to us, the sacrifice of Christ is absolutely necessary for forgiveness - the Bible says "no sins can be forgiven unless blood is offered" (Hebrews 9:22). For some reason, the sacrifice of Christ was necessary, by our Scriptures.

But Christ's becoming a man and gving Himself for us also allowed us, when we believe in Him, to come into relationship with Him, and for Him to place His Spirit in us. In this way, we feel like Christ is within us, helping us every day to sin less and less. Is there a concept like this in Islam? Is there a part of Allah that resides in you when you become Muslim?

[Gibby]

Please, let us not confuse the meanings of being "radical" (the one who tries to act in consequence with his convictions) with "fundamentalist" (the ones who act fanatically and break the law of love with self-explñoding bombs, phrases like "God hates fags" and etc. :( )

Saphire: Thank you for giving us the chance to get to know your religion according to your own experience. ;)

Isn't a "fundamentalist" someone who adheres to the "fundamentals" of a religion? I would consider myself a fundamentalist bible-believing Christian and I certainly don't fall into your described definition of a "fundamentalist" I think this word has been abused and the meaning twisted.

[purplemonkeyhunter]

Isn't a "fundamentalist" someone who adheres to the "fundamentals" of a religion? I would consider myself a fundamentalist bible-believing Christian and I certainly don't fall into your described definition of a "fundamentalist" I think this word has been abused and the meaning twisted.
I think the word fundamentalist now has the connotation of the people who blow up themselves, bomb abortion clinics, make claims that God hates gay people etc. It perhaps dosen't mean that, when I looked it up, the word meant pretty much what you said, but I think now that is just what people think of when they hear fundamentalist.

Something that gets me angry is people assume since a few people act a certian way, all people of their race/religion or w/e group they are in are like that. I've heard someone say that they believed that at least twenty percent of Islamic people were "terrorists". I don't know any people of that religion persannaly, however I have met a few online through message boards and things like that, and not one was a "terrorist" or hated America. All were american citizens. Some people will believe anything they hear, any propaganda, and it frankly scares me how ignorant of the world people can be. How much I don't know. Stereotypes put on people.

I'm going to stop my rant before it's started and I say something stupid lol.

[Green Knight]

If it hadn't been for the followers of Islam, we wouldn't know about the writings of most of the ancient philosophers. Plato, Aristotole, Socrates, and may others would have disappeared into the mists of history beause of the actions of many Medieval Christians who thought that anything not written by Christians was the work of the Devil, and therefore, not worth knowing.

[TimmyofOz]

If it hadn't been for the followers of Islam, we wouldn't know about the writings of most of the ancient philosophers. Plato, Aristotole, Socrates, and may others would have disappeared into the mists of history beause of the actions of many Medieval Christians who thought that anything not written by Christians was the work of the Devil, and therefore, not worth knowing.
Well that is not quite true. The writings of Plato, and Aristotole were not taught much in the West (Roman Catholic Europe) during the Middle ages. But they were popular in the Eastern Orthodox Europe. When Constantinople fell to the Islam invaders many of these writings were brought to the West with the refugees. And these writings started to have an effect on the Roman Catholic teachings if you read Thomas Aquinas. Granted Aquinas lived before the fall of Constantinople, the movement of the Crusaders also brought Eastern and Western Church teachings together. Islam scholars also kept these writings but because they were well know in Turkey, not because Mohammed was a geat reader Plato. There is a clear correlation between the Fall of Constantinople and the start of the Renaissance in Italy in the 15th Century.

I am sorry everyone is mad at me. But I do believe the world would be better if Muslims became Christians.

[Seravian]

the actions of many Medieval Christians who thought that anything not written by Christians was the work of the Devil, and therefore, not worth knowing.

That would be something that I'd call fundamentalist. I think this meaning of the word was already long ago very much used in Theology. But there I really am not an expert, perhaps PrinceoftheWest could help?

I was always told, as well, that Religious Fundamentalism means that the interpretation of the Sacred Texts is done straight away without thoughtfully reflecting. It often ignores Theology and sciences that involve rational processes. But the people employing such exegesis call themselves "true to the Bible" just because they do what the Bible textually means. (for instance, they wouldn't eat meat at saturday because it's meant so in the Leviticus).
This is what I consider is seriously wrong, because it's damaging the Gospel by proclaiming a meaning of the Word of God, without any solid argument supporting it! And in consequence, you have people that blow up themselves, that bomb abortion clinics, etc. just because they think they act according to the fundamentals of their Bible, or Quoran, etc.

And we christians...we do not behave necessarly better than the Muslims...that's why I disagree with you, Timmy. The world wouldn't be necessary better. The world would be better if we would really act lovingly i.e. more consequent with the Gospel!

And I daresay something to all Christians, though I will sound fanatic: It is because of not humble attitudes of many fundamentalists that we Christians are loosing mercy in our hearts: we become harder and support the segregation of denominations of people that believe in the same Lord and the One Law of Love.

With such a segregation, fundamentalists become fierce and lack mercy. This
feeds the atheists up and as a consequence, they really don't want to hear the word Christian nor religion nor spirituality and etc. again, for it brings so
many fights and hatred. That's what I think makes Aslan very, very sad. So
many people that get away from Him just because of the fights among us his
followers. And this wouldn't concern the Muslims! It's just because of uis christians!

Ecumenism and above all, Prayer, is what will brings us to One Body in Christ!

[inkspot]

As this is the Islam Thread, I think maybe we are getting far afield from our topic to discuss Christian fundamentalism -- we could open a separate thread on that, but I am afraid it is bound to be divisive. Sapphire, if you are still with us, did you have an answer for my previous question:
Christ's becoming a man and gving Himself for us also allowed us, when we believe in Him, to come into relationship with Him, and for Him to place His Spirit in us. In this way, we feel like Christ is within us, helping us every day to sin less and less. Is there a concept like this in Islam? Is there a part of Allah that resides in you when you become Muslim?
And something else I thought I should mention: you say that forgivess comes through keeping the rules of Islam and doing good deeds. This contrasts with Christianity, where forgiveness comes through asking and receiving it from Christ. Keeping the rules and doing good deeds may follow as Christ gives you strength, but they are not the "stuff" of salvation, in our faith.

[Seravian]

Inkspot, you are right, what I wrote was more like an exabrupt instead of something cooly reflected. I just wanted to openly notice that what happens with Islam -that many Muslims are fundamentalists and other not- happens very regrettably with us Christians as well!

Other than that, I am lookign for Sapphire's answer on Inkspot question too.

[SapphireOfSeptember]

Good, Sapphire, some of what you say is similar to what we believe as Christians. We base the forgiveness on belief in Christ and His sacrifice of atonement, but we likewise believe that no matter how terrible your sins or how many you have, God can forgive you. It's a very comforting thing. Of course to us, the sacrifice of Christ is absolutely necessary for forgiveness - the Bible says "no sins can be forgiven unless blood is offered" (Hebrews 9:22). For some reason, the sacrifice of Christ was necessary, by our Scriptures.

But Christ's becoming a man and gving Himself for us also allowed us, when we believe in Him, to come into relationship with Him, and for Him to place His Spirit in us. In this way, we feel like Christ is within us, helping us every day to sin less and less. Is there a concept like this in Islam? Is there a part of Allah that resides in you when you become Muslim?

I am so sorry I have not answered your question right away, but I had to get off of Narniafans because I have midterm exams coming up next week and I had to study and do schoolwork.

Regarding this topic about a part of Allah that resides in us, we believe it not nessicarily that way. Muhammad told us that God is closer to us then ourselves. He knows what you know and don't know about yourself, and gives us his blessings and protection from him if we are sincere believers. I don't exactly understand what your trying to say when you said,
" But Christ's becoming a man and gving Himself for us also allowed us, when we believe in Him, to come into relationship with Him, and for Him to place His Spirit in us. In this way, we feel like Christ is within us, helping us every day to sin less and less."
A muslim can develope a relationship with God if he is sincere. God's blessing's and love for us show us how much he cares about us. In Islam, Allah does not take the blame of a man's sins when He showed man the right path and sent messengers to warn them of the punishment of the hellfire if we don't ask Allah for forgiveness.
I think I am understanding what you mean by Jesus's (Pbuh) spirit in christians and how if a person truely believes in him, then jesus will help clear those sins away. I hope that is right. (?)
I also want to say that some people in this sight seem to claim that if leaving Islam to follow christianity, the world would be a better place. if timmyofoz is saying this, he then must mean all the other religions in the world because Christians dont commit anything against others...? Well, I opened this thread to discuss the similarities between islam and chrisitianity. not to provoke the other religions mistakes. I dont mention against christians so please do not provoke me with negative remarks..Thank you.

[inkspot]

Thanks, Sapphire. Listen, just come on narniafans when you have time, and don't feel pressured at all. You and all the students here should put your studies first.

I am not a theologian, so I cannot explain exactly how this happens, but because we believe our God is Three People in One: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit part can reside inside us. Then, the more we trust in God, the more the Holy Spirit guides our actions, so that we do more and more good things and less and less bad things.

I sense that maybe there is no correlation to this in Islam? You are in a relationship with Allah, so your closeness to Him guides you to behave better, or to desire to behave better, is that it?

As for clearing the sins away: we believe all sins were forgiven because of Jesus' sacrifice. That means sins I did in the past, and sins I may do in the future. We believe this forgiveness is universal, and those Christ calls will accept it and begin to live for Him and allow His Spirit to work through them. Others who do not accept this gift of forgiveness are what we would call "lost" or still bearing the burden of their sins and at risk of hell in the future (a similar concept to what you describe in Islam).

I think Seravian had the better point about what would make the world a better place: if all people would act as loving and compassionately as Jesus acted. There are a lot of people who believe in the common doctrines of the Christian church who do not act as Jesus acted. There are a lot of people of all faiths and no faith who do not act with love and compassion, and the world would be a better place if they all did. It would be a better place if I did!

[SK999111]

Hello
I have been wondering for a while which oarent in islam do you get the religion from?
In Judaism, you are Jewish if your mother, is regardless of your fathers faith. Is this the same in Islam?

Thank you

[kirke]

I don't exactly understand what your trying to say when you said....

i think the reason you didnt understand the feeling of bonding we have with Christ by him becomming a man is because as far as i know muslums do not consider mohommad (srry for sp. if wrong) to be god, but just the proffit of god. Christian's believe that Jesus is God as the "son" part of the trinity (3 in 1 god). I may be wrong though.

[SapphireOfSeptember]

Hello
I have been wondering for a while which oarent in islam do you get the religion from?
In Judaism, you are Jewish if your mother, is regardless of your fathers faith. Is this the same in Islam?

Thank you

Actually, that is a very good question. In Islam, A man can marry a women from the people of the book (Judaism, Christianitiy, Islam). But the children's religion would be their fathers religion, unless the non-muslim mother divorced the father and raised the children according to her own faith.
But most non-muslim women who marry muslim men usually convert to Islam.

[waterhogboy]

Hey Saph!

One thing I've always wondered is the how Muslims regard Jesus. I know he is held as a prophet, the prophet Isa, but does he appear at all in the Qu'ran and if he does what does it say about him?

[SapphireOfSeptember]

Hey Saph!

One thing I've always wondered is the how Muslims regard Jesus. I know he is held as a prophet, the prophet Isa, but does he appear at all in the Qu'ran and if he does what does it say about him?

As muslims, we regard Jesus as one of the 5 greatest prophets. We do believe in the messiah, in which Jesus (pbuh) will return to unite the muslims and christians together to fight off the 'Dajjal' (the one who claims he is god, and starts violence in the world. the prophet muhammad once said that the dajjal will have powers other men do not posess (the worst of evil))
Jesus will save us from the Dajjal and during his return, it would be a peaceful time after the dajjal.
In the Qur'an, Jesus is mentioned many, many times. There is a chapter in the Qur-an about Mary, mother of Jesus (peace be upon her) and her story.
I can give you some translations soon. you might want to check out this site that contains useful information about the Qur'an and the prophets. Its a really interesting site. i hope you'll find it useful for any information you might be finding about islam.
http://www.jesuswillreturn.com/
an islamic site about Jesus (pbuh)
also another
http://www.harunyahya.com

[samven582]

OK, let's talk about the teachings of Islam. Let's start with Allah. Allah is not the Arab word for the Jewish-Christian God "YHWH". Allah is an ancient Arab moon god that Muhammad claimed did all the acts that God did. Allah didn't do any of the divine acts in the Bible any more than did the golden calf.
Islam claims that the Bible is corrupted, while the Koran is perfect.
Islam teaches that Jesus Christ was neither crucified nor resurrected; therefore, it is impossiple that salvation can be had through faith in Christ.

but don't take my word for it.....look what the arab christians themselves say

this one is written by a Lebanses christian preacher who live in the US...i emailed him abt 2 years ago and he emailed me back and asked me to watch him in Al Jazeera and i did....he is a nice guy

Allah-God-Yahweh Is Allah the name of the true God? By William Qarraa

I received some time ago several letters asking about the name of God. "Is Allah the name of God or the name of a god/demon?" Several people thought that the name of Allah, linked to Islam, is the God of Islam or the bad god.

My answer was:

1- The Name of Allah is the name of the true God:



a- The Moslems worship the true God who has been the God of the Ancient and New Testament. They confess that "in order to be a good Moslem, you have to be a good Jew and a good Christian", a statement of confessing to the truth of the other two religions. b- The name of Allah was taking by the Moslems from the Christians who existed five centuries before the arrival of Islam. Arabs were mentioned in the book of Acts at the time of the Pentecost.

c- The existence of bad elements in any country or religion does not make that religion bad and hence does not make all moslems bad or all jews or chritians bad. People become bad when they do not follow the teaching of their religion.

d- Beauty and Truth is One. All religions reflect the beauty of God in a certain way and so does the Islam.

e- Moslems teach us that there are 99 names for Allah and that the 100th name is hidden. These names are adjectives of God and do not tell us the true entity of God.The 100th name may be the one that really is the name of God.


2- The Name of Allah is the same as the name of Elohim:

a- In the Semetic languages Vowels do not count. Consonants form the words. These consonants are not written because they are not important and they do make the word sick and ill. So if we look at the name of Allah and the name of Elohim we will find the following:
Allah = L + H, Elohim = L+H+M (we will ignore the M and come back to it later).
b- In the Semetic languages, word roots are formed of three letters. It was found later on that these three letters were formed of two two-letter verbs. A complete study was made by several scholars among which is Fr. Marmarji S.J. in Lebanon.

c- L+H= LH (pronounced 'lahh') means "to him". God, Allah or Yahweh is not the name of God, Allah and Yahweh. God is not the name. He exists and no one knows his name. If we know His name then we will possess Him and understand Him, then He is not God the Omnopotents the Existant etc.. d- So instead we say "to Him" be the glory. "To Him" be the praise Look at the book of Revelation 5:13: Blessing and honor and glory and power be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. It is safe to say that instead of saying God you can say "To Him"

e- Till our present day, Christians and Moslems replace the name of God with "Taala" (pronounced 'Tah-ah-lah') the excelsior, the most high.


3- Moses and the Name of Yahweh

a- Moses did not know the name of God even several hundred years after Abraham who is supposed to have known God and became the friend of God. Moses is from the descendents of Abraham, he is the leader and yet he did not know Him. The story is known where Moses says what is your name so I may tell them. God said "Yehyeh Asher Yehyeh" that means be who it be. He may have said I be who I am, or it is not your business to know my name. God definitely did not reveal his name to Moses. Moses used the verb to be in order to denote God, hence the word "existent" came to play a role. You have to know that the word of God when uttered does not go out in vain, it has to produce something. The "existent" has a triple chronological dimention in the semetic language. It means he who was, he who is and he who will be.Revelation again mentions these three dimentions. b- The name got deformed adonai


4-Is it possible to know the name of God?

Knowing a name or naming something means you are in command. Adam names of all the animals (Gen 2:19) because God gave him power over all of them (Gen. 1:26). The father always gives the name to his sons indicating the power over children. God changes the names of Abraham and Sarah. He tells him to call his son Isaac.

Remember also: "You are my son, today I have called you.". When the name of the Lord is called. You are calling the person of the Lord.

That's why it is impossible for man to grasp God and understand Him. He is out of our reach. Knowing His real name is grasping Him.

On the other hand, we use the names God, Theos, Allah, Elohim to denote an entity that is ' "To Him" be the glory'. A name is not enough to denote His power and glory etc..


5- Elohim

Elohim is the Hebrew name for Allah with the exception that it has an "M" at the end. "M" indicates the plural. And plural could indicate one of the following: a- plural of respect. Addressing a person with plural denotes respect. A king, a prince, a president are all addressed in president. You find that in Arabic, French, Italian etc.. (It is self explanatory).

b- plural of plurality of Gods despite the belief in one God, the people of Israel continued to worship several gods. They worshiped the golden calf (Exodus 32:4), the Baal and Ashtaroth (Judges 2:13) others "the foolish" said there is no God. That's why they were worshiping the gods, the "elohim" not the "eloh". It is amazing how the sons of Abraham who is the worshiper of the One God have stayed polytheist for a long time.

Finally, the name of the one and only God, became the name of the plural of gods. Theologically now: "Elohim" is the name of the Only and One God.

c- Plurality of the persons (out of revelation) The Lord appeared in the form of three men and Abram addressed them as a singular.(Gen 18). We know now that God is one in three persons through the revelation of Jesus Christ the Son of God. Since the Bible is a revelation, then we have the knowledge of the person of God even through the layers of the Old Testament.


Conclusion

Our conflict on what God, Allah, Yahweh should be called in a futile conflict that revolves around something superficial that would never define the name of God which is the nature of God. No language can say that they have the true name of the Entity that created the world. All what we can do is say "To Him" be the glory. Amen

More on this issue please, click here


http://www.albushra.org/varia/allah.htm

[TimmyofOz]

I want to respond but I promised myself I would stay off this thread. Help me PK or PotW.

[purplemonkeyhunter]

I have a question, what are Islamic beliefs on hell?

[jonathanruiz209]

GO HERE::

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp

[Spare Oom]

Sorry, but that cartoon about Allah being a moon-god (jonathanruiz209's link) is just plain wrong. "Allah" is made up of two words in Arabic - "Al" meaning "the," plus "lah" or "llah" meaning "god." It's perfectly possible that the word "allah" has been used back in history for a pagan god, just as we who speak English use the word "god" to refer to pagan beings like Jove or Bacchus. However, Allah is used nowadays to refer to God Almighty, just like the English word God. Allah is not a "proper name" for God, but simply the Arabic word for God. It is used by Christian Arabs, as well as Muslim ones, to refer to God.

If people really think that the Qur'an asks Muslims to worship the moon, they should read it and see. What they will find is that it speaks throughout of worshipping only Almighty God. Surah 6, verses 73 - 79, show Abraham rejecting worship of the stars, the moon, the sun and idols, and preaching worship of the One God.

Samven 582 posted a very detailed account of the word "Allah" just a couple of posts ago on this very thread!

[Parthian King]

Timmy, I'd love to help, but I'm on the road and can nly throw in the occasional comment.

I would simply say, a la Lewis, that to call Jesus great prophet is not an option given to us. Those who walked with him considered him God and recorded his words as making this claim. A great prophet cannot get the idenity of God wrong not to mention saying he's Him! So Jesus was liar, lunatic, or Lord. No other option presented itself. Christian writings were laid by those who folowed Christ personally down a matter of decades after his days on earth. It is a very trustworthy record.

[Mar]

i would be curious what islams think that aslan represents.

i mean lewis had in mind aslan as jesus..but what does the movie mean to you?

[Spare Oom]

Mar, I know that C. S. Lewis was a Christian so I see Aslan as his representation of Jesus, from his viewpoint as a Christian. I'm more familiar with the books than the film version, though I did go and see the film and I appreciated the fact that it was true to the spirit of the book.

[samven582]

GO HERE::

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp

I had a feeeling sombody would eventually post this :rolleyes:

[Mar]

Mar, I know that C. S. Lewis was a Christian so I see Aslan as his representation of Jesus, from his viewpoint as a Christian. I'm more familiar with the books than the film version, though I did go and see the film and I appreciated the fact that it was true to the spirit of the book.
oh okay, i was just wondering why you liked it if it had to do with christan stuff! lol just wondering though..

[Spare Oom]

Mar, the Chronicles of Narnia still contain much for me as a Muslim. To begin with, they are a great fantasy story, rousing and magical, with interesting characters, imaginative events and good overcoming evil. I love the idea of discovering a strange land through a wardrobe or whatever, and I used to dream of finding one as a child. The stories have a poetry and beauty about them which move me - I shiver at Charn, feel a delicious sadness creep over me when Peter and the others rediscover Cair Paravel, and delight in the voyage to the utter east. Many of the religious themes in the Chronicles of Narnia apply as much to Muslims as to Christians - for example the children being called "Sons of Adam" and "Daughters of Eve," the tree of forbidden fruit, Satan as a tempter, life being a spiritual journey, Creation and the Day of Judgement, etc. Even though Aslan does not equate in every respect to the Muslim view of Jesus, I can still appreciate Aslan's role in Narnia as that of spiritual guide and saviour. Hope that answers your question :) .

Further to what I said yesterday about jonathanruiz209's "allah the moon-god" link, the following verse from the Qur'an (Surah 41, verse 37) states clearly that Muslims must worship only God - not the sun or moon:

"And of His signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Prostrate not to the sun and the moon, but prostrate yourselves to God, who created them, if it is He you worship."

[TimmyofOz]

Ok I promise to be nice.
My understanding of what Spare Oom is saying is that even if Allah may have been a moon god in pre-Islam Arabia, that is the name of the one god they worship now and that god is the same God that was in the Bible.

First, Islam says the Bible has been corrupted, and so you reject any teaching in it that contradict the Koran. That says your god is the god of the Koran, not the God of the Bible.
Second, your god isn't the God of Christainity, because our God is Trinitartian.
Third, if your god is the one true god and not just an Arabian god, why must I know Arabic to worship him.
Last, this word study of yours on Allah and Elohim, means nothing. Elohim is generally seen as the Hebrew word for the english word "god". Just as "theo" is the greek word for god, and "allah" is the arabic word for god. JHWH is the Hebrew Name of God. Just as Zues is the name of the Greek god, and (Father, Son-Jesus Christ, and Holy Spirit) is the name of the Christian god. If I were to talk about god to an Arab in Arabic I might say the word "allah" for god, but would call Him (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) to tell the arab person who allah was. So my God is not the Allah of Islam.

So what does this all mean. I means that the True God is either Allah, the Trinitarian God of Christainity, or some other god. They can't all be God. I know what your thinking, that then Christains reject YHWH. No We believe the Old Testament is inerrant also and that the New Testamant only fulfills the what the Old said who would be the Savior. So as I said before in an earlier post, Islam is only giving Allah credit for what the True God did in the Bible.

[Spare Oom]

[TimmyofOz:] "First, Islam says the Bible has been corrupted, and so you reject any teaching in it that contradict the Koran. That says your god is the god of the Koran, not the God of the Bible."

[TimmyofOz:] "If I were to talk about god to an Arab in Arabic I might say the word "allah" for god, but would call Him (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) to tell the arab person who allah was. So my God is not the Allah of Islam."

Since I'm a Muslim and you're a Christian, we obviously see things differently. The Qur'an tells me that the One God I worship is the God of Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Mary, Jesus and other people familiar to Christians from the Bible. That is what I believe.

In the Qur'an, Jews and Christians are referred to as "people of earlier scripture" or "people of the Book" and we are told: "Surely, those who believe in God and follow the Qur'an (Muslims) and those who were guided from among the Jews, and those who followed Jesus' true message from among the Christians, and those who were Sabians (monotheists), whoever believes in God and the Last Day and performs deeds of righteousness, they shall have their reward with their Lord, no fear shall be on them, nor shall they grieve." (Surah 2, verse 62).

[TimmyofOz:] "Second, your god isn't the God of Christainity, because our God is Trinitartian."

God in one person or God in three persons?
For me, the truth of the Oneness of God is something that touches my heart - I feel it with every fibre of my being.

The Qur'an says:

"So believe in God and His Messengers, and do not say: 'Trinity', desist! it is better for you, most surely God is One God, Glory be to Him! High exalted is He above having a son. What is in the heavens and on the earth belongs to God. And God suffices for a trustee."

Personally I felt this Oneness of God even when I was a Christian, and never did accept the idea of a God "in three persons." Jesus in the four Gospels emphasized One God - not Three in One. Jehovah's Witnesses also reject the idea of a Trinity, though their religion is Bible-based.

[TimmyofOz:] "Third, if your god is the one true god and not just an Arabian god, why must I know Arabic to worship him."

You don't have to, or not much anyway. I worship God and I know very little Arabic. Regarding the term "Allah," English-speaking Muslims use "Allah" and "God" interchangeably. Prayers are offered in Arabic because saying the same words unites Muslims across space and time and, once you know the prayers in Arabic, you can step into a mosque anywhere around the world and join in the prayers. Therefore, I have learnt enough Arabic to understand the prayers. However, I haven't read anything that says I can't offer the prayers in English if I wish. Outside the five obligatory prayers, which follow a set format, I often pray to God in English.

You may hear of some people adopting an Arabic name on converting to Islam. That is not obligatory. Some of those who embraced Islam at the time of Mohammed did not have Arabic names and they did not change their names. I didn't change my name, which is of Hebrew origin. After all, I became a Muslim, not an Arab :) !

You may also hear Muslims using the occasional Arabic phrase even when they're speaking in another language, eg. "insha'Allah" (God willing) or "Al-hamdulillah!" (Praise be to God!) Using these phrases unites Muslims across the globe but it's perfectly permissible to say them in English or any other language.

[TimmyofOz:] "JHWH is the Hebrew Name of God. Just as Zues is the name of the Greek god, and (Father, Son-Jesus Christ, and Holy Spirit) is the name of the Christian god."

I believe there's some debate about what exactly YHWH means, but that it's something along the lines of "I am who I am" or "He is who He is." This emphasizes God as an eternal being, so Muslims would have no problem with anyone referring to God as YHWH.

[Saruman]

Much of what Parthian King has had to say is rather right on the money as far as Jesus' identity is concerned. When Jesus boldly declares that "I and My Father are One" (John 10:30), He indeed leaves no room to interpret that He is a mere prophet; and do not forget what God the Father had to say concerning Jesus:

Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, You are My beloved Son; in You am I well pleased (Luke 3:21-22)

and

While he [Simon Peter] yet spoke, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye Him (Mt. 17:5)

The reason behind a Holy Trinity? God's Word declares this better than I could ever:

Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father? (John 14:5-9).

If Jesus Himself tells us that He is the Father (God), then two conclusions are to be drawn from this:

1) Jesus Christ is not a prophet.
2) Jesus Christ is God the Father in the form of a Man, being fully God and fully Man, being the Second Person of the Holy Trinity (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit). This concept is quite clearly portrayed and given to us in the Bible, in the Old Testament and in the New.

For the God of the Bible (whom the Muslims claim to be the same "Allah" of Islam) to declare that Jesus is "His Son" in whom "He is well pleased" and also commands that we listen to Him, there then comes into the light a clear separation between Christianity and Islam, and (unfortunately) between Christianity and Judaism as well.

As far as Timmy's point made concerning the Name of the One God, he too is right on the money. The consonants YHVH (often thought to be Yahweh, Jehovah, or Yahushua or Yahoshua), means "The Becoming One." In essence, God becomes to us what we need (and please don't misinterpret that to mean He is a magical genie that is at our disposal, to answer and respond to our every call). God is Love, God is Mercy, God is Truth, God is Good, God is Just, God is Righteous, God is Holy, God is Grace, God is Forgiveness. He is all of these things, and He becomes to us these things. He is our Salvation, He is our Banner, etc (Jehovah-rafa, Jehovah-tsidkenu, Jehovah-shama, Jehovah-nissi, etc.) Sadly, the Jews refused the command of God when He commanded that His name be declared among the nations. Instead they left us with "YHVH," and the correct spelling and pronunciation of God's name is not now known to us fully, but the meaning of His name remains.

Allah is, indeed, the ancient "moon-god," whose symbol is the crescent moon. He is a separate entity from the God of the Bible. He certainly makes no claim concerning having a "son," but God the Father declares of Jesus that "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." And the statements found in the four Gospels of the New Testament were chronicled by the same disciples who were with Jesus step-by-step, what Parthian King calls "a very trustworthy record." Couldn't have articulated it better myself.

I have a question for my Muslim friends on this forum: why is it that we Christians and the Jews are called "people of the Book," when there are pronounced upon us many condemnations? Why are the Palestinians who dwell in the ancient land of Israel so vehement and so dedicated in their determination to exterminate every last Jew on this earth? If Islam is purported to mean "peace," why then is there such a conquest to exterminate and to destroy?

"Surely, those who believe in God and follow the Qur'an (Muslims) and those who were guided from among the Jews, and those who followed Jesus' true message from among the Christians, and those who were Sabians (monotheists), whoever believes in God and the Last Day and performs deeds of righteousness, they shall have their reward with their Lord, no fear shall be on them, nor shall they grieve." (Surah 2, verse 62). (emphasis added)

A question here about Jesus' "true" message. What message, other than what He preached while here on this earth, would declare that He is only a prophet and not God?

Islam has me bewildered entirely.

[TimmyofOz]

.
2) Jesus Christ is God the Father in the form of a Man, being fully God and fully Man, being the Second Person of the Holy Trinity (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit). This concept is quite clearly portrayed and given to us in the Bible, in the Old Testament and in the New.

I think you mean Jesus Christ is God the Son. :)

[Christine Marie]

I learned about Islam in World History class in grade 12 and two things struck me as very odd about the faith:

1) The belief that Jesus was a prophet but not the Son of God. If they believe he is a prophet then do they believe he was lying about him claiming to be the messiah? If so, why do they consider him a prophet instead of a heretic?

2) Muhammad's life seems to be an odd choice for someone chosen as the main prophet. He married 11 times and had four wives at a time, including one who was only six years old! :eek:
It's as if he's trying to show that God made women for the purpose of serving men and only serving men, and that really bugs me! Women are to respect their husband and men are to respect their wife, no plural!
And I won't even get into forcing children into marriages :mad:

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of good Muslim people out there but I just can't believe in it ; )

[Christine Marie]

Terrorism is a crime against humanity. It is a brutal attack on innocent people. Islam is a religion that means "peace". In the Koran, the Holy Book of Islam, God commands believers to bring peace and security to the world. Terrorism and all other mischief on Earth are the very acts that Muslims are commanded by God to stand against. The Islamic morality is the cure for terrorism, not the source of it. Those who resort to or support terrorism in the name of Islam are in a great error. They are committing a crime which God has cursed in the Koran. All true Muslims denounce terrorism of any kind, and share the sorrows of its victims.
Exactly!
I'm not a Muslim but it's quite obvious that true Muslims do not condone suicide or murdering, especially in the name of God!
Some Muslims and my fellow Christians misconstrue parts of their Holy Books to carry out deeds of hate and it is very wrong

The situation with the suicide bombers seems more of a need for power and pride (both sins) rather then a matter of faith

[inkspot]

Welcome to the discussion, Christine Marie.

Couple things to think about: Old Testament men often had several wives. It's a bad system, but God's people followed it before Christ, I don't know why or how it changed. Anyone have an idea?

Also, in the Quran as I understand it, Jesus does not claim to be God, in fact he makes clear that he isn't God. Muslims believe the Quran, and they believe Christian Scriptures have got it wrong.

As for Mohammed being a poor choice for prophet: we're all sinners, and God can use anybody who surrenders to Him. (I'm not Muslim, but in Christianity this is true: it doesn't matter what kind of a mess you have been before you come to Christ, He can use you, even if you are the unlikely choice.)

[Christine Marie]

Also, in the Quran as I understand it, Jesus does not claim to be God, in fact he makes clear that he isn't God. Muslims believe the Quran, and they believe Christian Scriptures have got it wrong.

But that confuses me. Did they write Jesus to be a completely different person since he was very upfront about being the Son of God and so were his followers so I don't quite understand how the Islam interpretation of Jesus began?
As for Mohammed being a poor choice for prophet: we're all sinners, and God can use anybody who surrenders to Him. (I'm not Muslim, but in Christianity this is true: it doesn't matter what kind of a mess you have been before you come to Christ, He can use you, even if you are the unlikely choice.)
I understand what you're saying; I just find it strange that a prophet felt the need to have 11 wives and at least one who is only a child. Polygamy is about using women for self-gratification and I just don't like it; it removes the sanctity and respect of marriage

[inkspot]

Agreed, polygamy is a bad thing ... I just think in the old days, people didn't realize how bad it was. Also, I thought you meant Mohammed had all those wives before he was called as a prophet. Did he take them after he was already a prophet? That would be odd, from our viewpoint.

As for why the Quran says Christ presented himself differently than in the Christian Bible -- I guess if it weren't different, then Islamic people would have to believe Christ was the Messiah, and there wouldn't be any reason for a different religion ...

[Spare Oom]

[Christine Marie:] "Muhammad's life seems to be an odd choice for someone chosen as the main prophet. He married 11 times and had four wives at a time, including one who was only six years old!"

It was quite common back then for parents to betrothe their children from a very early age, usually to cement ties between families/tribes. This took place in Europe too. However, the couple wouldn't live together as man and wife, or consummate the marriage, until the younger of the two at least reached puberty. (That may still sound early by today's standards, but remember that it's not so long ago that the age of consent in America was ten.)

[Inkspot:] "Old Testament men often had several wives."

Yes, and those men included prophets. In the Old Testament, we hear of Abraham, Solomon and others practising polygamy.

Islam reduced the number of wives permitted to four (more wives were allowed in Arabia prior to that). Polygamy made sense in the society of the time as men often went off on long, dangerous journeys across the desert to trade goods, and many male lives were lost in tribal wars. This meant there was a surplus of women. If a man had more than one wife, the wives could rely on one another for support, and for help with childcare and daily work.

Only one of the Prophet Mohammed's wives was a young girl and she married him willingly. The others were older, often widowed. There was great love and respect between Mohammed and his wives, and between the wives themselves. They lived together as a family.

A different way of life, yes, but not necessarily a bad one.

[Spare Oom]

[Curumo:] "Allah is, indeed, the ancient "moon-god," whose symbol is the crescent moon."

I've already given my views on this in earlier posts. The long message from Samven582, posted in this thread (message 78), explores this in depth.

[Curumo:] "I have a question for my Muslim friends on this forum: why is it that we Christians and the Jews are called "people of the Book," when there are pronounced upon us many condemnations? Why are the Palestinians who dwell in the ancient land of Israel so vehement and so dedicated in their determination to exterminate every last Jew on this earth? If Islam is purported to mean "peace," why then is there such a conquest to exterminate and to destroy?"

You'd have to ask a Palestinian about that, but the dispute in Israel is over land rather than over the nature of God. Muslims and Jews live together in peace in other countries.

[Spare Oom]

[Curumo:] "Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, You are My beloved Son; in You am I well pleased (Luke 3:21-22)"

In the Bible, “Son of God” is not a title reserved exclusively for Jesus. Other people besides Jesus are called “Son of God,” eg. Adam (Luke 3: 38), Israel (Exodus 4: 22), David (2 Samuel 7:14), Ephraim (Jeremiah 31:9) and peacemakers (Matthew 5:9). Therefore, I don’t believe that the title “Son of God” was ever meant to be taken literally, but only metaphorically – it was an honorary title denoting closeness to God. The Qur’an objects to the literal interpretation.

[Curumo:] "Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father? (John 14:5-9)."

This simply shows that knowing Jesus means knowing God, since Jesus brings knowledge of God. It doesn’t follow that Jesus is God.

[Curumo:] "A question here about Jesus' "true" message. What message, other than what He preached while here on this earth, would declare that He is only a prophet and not God?"

Many verses in the Bible point to what Muslims believe to be the true message – that Jesus was the Messiah (ie. the anointed one whose coming was awaited by the Jews), that he was a prophet, that he was born of the Virgin Mary and that God gave him the power to do miracles – yet that he was not God. Here are just a few of these passages, taken from the Good News Bible:

John 17: 16-18
Jesus answered, ‘What I teach is not my own teaching, but it comes from God, who sent me. Whoever is willing to do what God wants will know whether what I teach comes from God or whether I speak on my own authority. A person who speaks on his own authority is trying to gain glory for himself. But he who wants glory for the one who sent him is honest, and there is nothing false in him.'

John 7: 28-29
Do you really know me and know where I am from? I have not come on my own authority. He who sent me, however, is truthful. You do not know him, but I know him, because I come from him and he sent me.

John 5: 30
I can do nothing on my own authority; I judge only as God tells me, so my judgement is right, because I am not trying to do what I want, but only what he who sent me wants.

Jesus is talking about being sent by God and teaching what God has asked him to teach. His power and authority have been given to him by God. In John 17: 16-18 (above), he calls on people to glorify God – not to glorify him.

Mark 13: 32
No one knows, however, when that day or hour will come – neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son; only the Father knows.

The Son does not know, yet the Father does. Therefore, how can they be one being? And if Jesus is not all-knowing, how can he be God?

Mark 12: 29
Jesus says that the most important commandment is 'Listen, Israel! The Lord our God is the only Lord.'

Note that he says “our God” (ie. Jesus’ God as well as ours).

John 14: 28-31
If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father; for he is greater than I…the world must know that I love the Father; that is why I do everything as he commands me.

The Father is greater than Jesus, and Jesus loves Him and obeys Him.

Matthew 26: 39
He went a little farther on, threw himself face downwards on the ground, and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is possible, take this cup of suffering from me! Yet not what I want, but what you want.’

What Jesus wants may differ from what God wants. Also, Jesus prostrates and prays to God, so how can he himself be God? We should be worshipping the One Jesus prayed to; not be worshipping Jesus himself.

John 20:17
But go to my brothers [ie. the disciples] and tell them that I am returning to him who is my Father and their Father, my God and their God.

Jesus states clearly that the Father is his GOD! This couldn’t be more plain. If Jesus has a God (ie. the Father), Jesus cannot be God.

The Qur’an confirms this:

Surah 5: 72
Most certainly they blaspheme who say: ‘God is the Messiah, the son of Mary,’ but the Messiah said: ‘O Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.’

[Curumo:] "Islam has me bewildered entirely."

Sorry about that. I’ve tried to explain my own understanding of Islam in this thread (as has SapphireOfSeptember) as well as in the thread on “Does Jesus care?” There are plenty of others better qualified than I am to discuss these things, but unless they have an interest in C. S. Lewis they’re unlikely to join this Forum.

I can recommend two books which look in detail at Jesus in Christianity and Islam. The first is Jesus Prophet of Islam by Muhammad ‘Ata’ ur-Rahim and Ahmad Thomson (sorry if the title sounds provocative to Christians) and the second is For Christ’s Sake, by the same authors.

[Christine Marie]

Agreed, polygamy is a bad thing ... I just think in the old days, people didn't realize how bad it was. Also, I thought you meant Mohammed had all those wives before he was called as a prophet. Did he take them after he was already a prophet? That would be odd, from our viewpoint.

That's true...
He apparently only had one wife prior to him being a prophet and then got involved in polygamy. Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not 100% sure on this


Oh, and thanks Spare Oom for the Jesus- Islam explanation :)

[TimmyofOz]

Agreed, polygamy is a bad thing ... I just think in the old days, people didn't realize how bad it was. Also, I thought you meant Mohammed had all those wives before he was called as a prophet. Did he take them after he was already a prophet? That would be odd, from our viewpoint.

As for why the Quran says Christ presented himself differently than in the Christian Bible -- I guess if it weren't different, then Islamic people would have to believe Christ was the Messiah, and there wouldn't be any reason for a different religion ...

Inky, It looks like the Pope has little faith in Islam and the ability of the Islam nations to get along with the West.
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48464

[inkspot]

I notice the pope did not make an official statement -- Timmy's link and the link in the article to an Italian news story are attributed to what people at a conference sa