Magic vs Christianity

[polly&digory]

I know that some people are not allowed to read or watch stories that include magic. My cousins are one of those.
I have encountered people like this before who think that wizards and magic come from the wrong side. Sort of like when people don't celebrate halloween.
where do you think our idea of magic being okay came from or when did it mean that it was evil?

[inkspot]

Real world "magick" (as some people say) I think was condemned in the Bible (the verses are quoted over in the Harry Potter threads).

But I don't think magic in fantasy stories was ever condemned, if you look at fairy tales and all ... everyone knows it's not "real."

Some Christians think even "pretend" magic is bad for you to read about (because of those Scriptures about magic), so they don't let their kids read fantasy stories, even ones by Christian writers ...

[polly&digory]

i feel so sad when some of the greatest stories don't get read because of the fear some christians have. I feel sometimes that christians live in fear of almost anything that isn't the church. Its hard to live in a bubble like that.

[Kitanna]

Part of the reason certain magic books (Harry Potter comes first to my mind) are looked down upon by Christians is because some feel there is a connection to occult.
Since the occult is often paired up with wizards and witches and the Church looks down on that as unnatural it's no surprise books on the subject are often banned by such groups.
I was doing some research on the occult and this is what Wikipedia had to say about Christianity and Occult.
Christians view the occult as being anything supernatural which is done, not by God's power, but by the power of evil spirits. Many Christians believe that these supernatural happenings may be potentially harmful to human beings, either spiritually or perhaps even physically. Many Christians believe it is very unwise to get involved in occult practices, such as magick, the use of Ouija boards or Tarot cards as they consider that there is a risk of real, evil powers being behind any supernatural occurrences involved in these practices.

However, Christians accept Tolkien and Lewis because most people know how devote they were. But some of the more hardcore Christians feel these authors were really into Occult (because of the use of wizards and magic that are so key to the plots) and so they forbid their children from reading the books.

[Srob]

I think that there is a fine line that needs to be drawn at where to stop when reading books about magic or the supernatural.

Witchcraft(or "magick") is real. It is powerful and can be harmful. The Bible says that the eye is the door to the soul and what we see can enter our soul. Whether this be bad or good. I believe that when you associate yourself with such things as Tarot Cards, Ouigi(sp.??) boards, and Witchcraft(White magic---WIcca), you open yourself(your soul, mind, and such) to evil spirits and demonic forces that do associate with these things. It doesn't surprise me when people tell of stories of after reading the 1st couple HP books, they started having wierd things happen in their houses. One such story happened in my very church(and as my dad was a pastor, I knew about it). A family allowed 2 of the 3 children(the 3rd was too small to read) to read the HP books. After a couple of months of reading the books(I think they read 2 or 3, but read them over and over), they had some "unexplained" things happen in their house. Things would drop off shelves(and we live in MO, so no earthquakes), in the kitchen and break when no one was in there, doors would slam shut, you would hear "footsteps", and chairs would be knocked over. All while no one was around(they would even see the chair fall down, while they were ALL sitting in the Living room). Before the parents allowed HP books in, they had nothing of the sort. So my dad and mom, went over to pray over the house and the family decided(actually the kids did) not to read HP and they got rid of them(I believe that they burnt them). After the got rid of it all, and after the annointing(praying over) of the house, these things stopped. I cannot say 100% sure that these occurences were caused because of HP, because I didn't talk to the spirits/whatever was happening(and no one did), but I can certainly say it didn't happen before HP and it didn't happen after the got rid of it. So, my conclusion is that HP allowed certain spirits to be drawn towards the house.

I have heard NUMEROUS other instances such as these. I know of a man(He has came to our church talking about the occults, HP, and other such things) and his website is www.ericbarger.com He has alot of very intersting books and is very insightful on these matters. Some may want to look.

Anyway, I do not, and will not, read, listen, or watch the HP movies/books/soundtracks(do they have them?), because I personally believe that the books could possibly be opening my house or myself up to "spirits" that I do not want around. These stories remind me of the LB, where the Ape and the Tarkhaan call up a demon that they don't want around.

That is my perspective. As I say on ALL of my posts that are related to religious matters, PLEASE do not take offense to this, anyone.

Stephen

[TimmyofOz]

For a long time spiritual gifts were avoided by many protestants. The problem I see is the fear of opening oneself up to prosession. Practicing spiriual gifts without God is dangerious, because you open youself up to attacks from the other side. You need to be careful when you do it,but that might be because you are being active in spiritual warefare. I am trying to be open to spiritual gifts now in my life, like dreams, where I have downplayed them before. I am now in a church that at least talks about thing like speaking in tougues. But you must be careful. Not to open youself to the occult.
My pastor doesn't like Holloween, but loves CON.

[Aslan the Wise one]

I wotte a paper on this topic a few weeks ago i'm not that happy with it so I think i'm going to rewitte it but. I have read up on this topic and I think the peolpe who think all magic is bad are fools that is what I have to say.

[FallOfFingolfin]

I think that there is a fine line that needs to be drawn at where to stop when reading books about magic or the supernatural.

Witchcraft(or "magick") is real. It is powerful and can be harmful. The Bible says that the eye is the door to the soul and what we see can enter our soul. Whether this be bad or good. I believe that when you associate yourself with such things as Tarot Cards, Ouigi(sp.??) boards, and Witchcraft(White magic---WIcca), you open yourself(your soul, mind, and such) to evil spirits and demonic forces that do associate with these things. It doesn't surprise me when people tell of stories of after reading the 1st couple HP books, they started having wierd things happen in their houses. One such story happened in my very church(and as my dad was a pastor, I knew about it). A family allowed 2 of the 3 children(the 3rd was too small to read) to read the HP books. After a couple of months of reading the books(I think they read 2 or 3, but read them over and over), they had some "unexplained" things happen in their house. Things would drop off shelves(and we live in MO, so no earthquakes), in the kitchen and break when no one was in there, doors would slam shut, you would hear "footsteps", and chairs would be knocked over. All while no one was around(they would even see the chair fall down, while they were ALL sitting in the Living room). Before the parents allowed HP books in, they had nothing of the sort. So my dad and mom, went over to pray over the house and the family decided(actually the kids did) not to read HP and they got rid of them(I believe that they burnt them). After the got rid of it all, and after the annointing(praying over) of the house, these things stopped. I cannot say 100% sure that these occurences were caused because of HP, because I didn't talk to the spirits/whatever was happening(and no one did), but I can certainly say it didn't happen before HP and it didn't happen after the got rid of it. So, my conclusion is that HP allowed certain spirits to be drawn towards the house.

I have heard NUMEROUS other instances such as these. I know of a man(He has came to our church talking about the occults, HP, and other such things) and his website is www.ericbarger.com He has alot of very intersting books and is very insightful on these matters. Some may want to look.

Anyway, I do not, and will not, read, listen, or watch the HP movies/books/soundtracks(do they have them?), because I personally believe that the books could possibly be opening my house or myself up to "spirits" that I do not want around. These stories remind me of the LB, where the Ape and the Tarkhaan call up a demon that they don't want around.

That is my perspective. As I say on ALL of my posts that are related to religious matters, PLEASE do not take offense to this, anyone.

Stephen

I laughed. Does that mean I'm going to Hell? :p

[PrinceOfTheWest]

You know, FallOfFingolfin, you seem to have a hell fixation. Do you really want to go there that badly?

[FallOfFingolfin]

You know, FallOfFingolfin, you seem to have a hell fixation. Do you really want to go there that badly?

What's that supposed to mean?

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Just what I said. Why are you so fixated on hell?

[FallOfFingolfin]

Just what I said. Why are you so fixated on hell?

...I'm not.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Oh - my mistake. It just seemed to me that in a lot of posts you make, you seem to presume that other people think you're on the way to hell. I just don't meet many people who think like that.

[FallOfFingolfin]

Oh - my mistake. It just seemed to me that in a lot of posts you make, you seem to presume that other people think you're on the way to hell. I just don't meet many people who think like that.

Sorry--it's merely a figure of speech.
And reading sites like www.wayoflife.org may have that effect on me. :rolleyes:

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Well, heck, if I read that, I'd be afraid I was going to hell, too. But then, I'm Catholic, so they'd think I'm going faster. Why are you reading stuff like that?

[onlymystory]

I think this could develop into a conversation better left for pm's guys or at least start a new thread. Lets keep this thread on its original focus.

Having discussed this issue with many fellow churchgoers I will offer what insight I have. It seems that since the Bible forbids the use of witchcraft (interestingly enough it doesn't directly say magic that I remember. possibly why Lewis brings up the deep magic in Narnia), that many people see magic the same way. Hence the reason some people will not read CON, LOTR, or HP. Others say its just a story and who cares. Personally I think that those three series in particular are just stories and not harmful with certain precautions. Parents should first of all be aware of the appropriate age level of the books. Many parents think books will be okay even if a movie isn't. THis is hardly the case. Often the books are more intense. Second parents need to realize that even if their child is old enough to read the book can they understand what is behind it? If you don't want your kid to think magic is ok, then they need to be old enough to understand you when you talk to them about the differences in magic. And finally I think everyone should look at any book or movie before they read it especially when you're younger. Look at what the book is trying to get across. Is it a bunch of spells and incantations or is the author trying to provide solid moral lessons within a fairytale? (Something both Lewis, Tolkien, and Rowling are doing) Some parents have a harder time with HP because spells and wands are so much more prevalent. Despite being a children's book, one has to dig a little deeper for the lessons. (Another example of Rowling's talent.) I think everyone should have a clear understanding of what they are reading and what their own beliefs are before they begin the book. And finally, the biggest danger is falling into the land of if only. Thinking that if only you knew the right spell or the right word your life could be like the books. Nothing wrong with going into a wardrobe once in a while or looking like an idiot trying to run into Platform 9 3/4. One just needs to be careful especially as you get older. (One of the same dangers with those who get to obsessed over celebrities.) The land of if only is a nice place to visit but a dangerous place to live. Just use caution and discernment in your choices. Hope that made sense.

[FallOfFingolfin]

Well, heck, if I read that, I'd be afraid I was going to hell, too. But then, I'm Catholic, so they'd think I'm going faster. Why are you reading stuff like that?

Ha, I was doing some research for school and I stumbled upon it. I looked around the site after reading that apparently John Lennon's sole purpose in life was to lead all of his "followers" to eternal destruction.

After reading something like that, I supposed that it was a joke site. Alas, it's not.

And I'm using "What Must I Do To Be Saved?" as the introduction to my persuasive speech on why religion and public school should be kept apart. Imagine if a teacher came to the front of hte class and declared "YOU ARE A TERRIBLE, HELLBOUND SINNER! YOUR HEART IS BLACK!"

[EveningStar]

Here is a worthy question. Is the word translated in the Bible as Witchcraft referring to the same thing as what we see in Harry Potter or Chronicles of Narnia?

People tried to tell the future by bringing back the spirits of the dead who supposedly dwell where past, present and future meet. My ancestors used to try this with runic magic. The witchcraft used by the so-called "Witch of Endor" who brought back one of the old prophets to answer a question...that was more like spiritualism or holding a seance.

All I'm saying is that it would be worthwhile to establish just what was meant by "witch" in the Old Testament, and whether that refers to all forms of conjuring, regardless of the source of the power. :confused:

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Chakal, you've got a point there. Just what was the witchcraft that was condemned by the Scriptures? It seemed to involve trying to gain powers by allying with spiritual forces, which would include the dead, lesser spirits (what we would call animism), and "gods". There would also be an element of trying to seize or use power that wasn't appropriate for the person doing the witchcraft. An example might be Baalam in Numbers 22 - he was summmoned to put a curse on Israel. Notice that the Scriptures say that he talked to God, and God to him, so this wasn't a question of a false spirit. What it was was a question of disobedience, and trying to manipulate God. In Baalam's case it backfired, but if we presume that this was a template for how wizards worked, then it would be an example of trying to manipulate power that wasn't yours.

So the nub of the matter would seem to center around 1) idolatry, and 2) forgetting our place. In the case of the Israelites, the "formula" for getting things to go your way was following the law of God, not trying to invoke some power to do something marvelous on your behalf.

That being the case, it seems that neither the Potter books nor Narnia (nor Lord of the Rings, for that matter) fit this mold. As has been noted elsewhere, the "magic" in the Potter books is more like a peculiar form of technology. First off, you have to have some kind of innate ability - be "born with" something, so to speak - because there are clear cases of people who might expect to be able to do this magic but can't (squibs). Secondly, the spells used are learned in classroom settings, and mastering them seems to be a matter of skill and practice. There's no invocation of spirits of any kind, good or ill, nor are there "bargains" to acquire the powers. For potions, you have to follow the recipe properly. For incantations, you have to combine style, verbage, and internal intent (e.g. the Crucio curse doesn't work unless you really want to hurt someone.) Herbology and magical creatures are mere fancy, for such things don't exist. Interestingly, the only "magic" that's close to something an ordinary person might do - Divination - is mocked and derided as nonsense.

In Narnia, explicit magic is either bad (e.g. the White Witch's powers, or the Emerald Witch's spellbinding ability) or in some manner innate to the creatures (e.g. the centaur's abilities to prophecy). It seems forbidden to humans - Dr. Cornelius, a half-dwarf, says that magic is not a proper study for princes (humans), though he himself can do minor incantations. The spells in the Magician's Book on the Island of the Voices seem the closest to what we would consider "magick", but Coriakin was a star, not a human, and the spells were apparently given to him to help him govern the Duffers. Even he didn't want to use them, but was forced to. When Lucy is tempted to read the spell to make her beautiful, Aslan forbids her. The magic that moves people between the worlds is really Aslan exercising His authority over all His universes to move His creatures back and forth.

Even in Tolkien's world, good magic is innate to the beings themselves (e.g. Galadriel's mirror) or to places (at one place which I can't recall, someone refers to the Shire as being protected by it's own quiet magic.) Bad magic is someone attempting power beyond his natural lot (Sauron, Saruman). Interestingly, one of the main uses of bad magic (which Galadriel calls "deceits") is to dominate and subdue other beings and nature - something like our own technological society.

To me, it doesn't seem like any of these literary channels touches on "magick" as the Scriptures define and forbid. Interestingly, the one that seems most blatant (the Potter books) is the one that seems to me to take the subject least seriously. Tolkien and Lewis seem to understand more about such powers, and understand how they should and should not be used. In the final analysis, Rowling's magical duels seem like crude gunfights beside the subtlety of Tolkien's treatment of the White Rider facing down the Nazgûl king at the gates of Minas Tirith - or, for that matter, Puddleglum grinding his foot into the Emerald Witch's fire.

FoF, I'll PM you about the issue you raise in your post, if that's all right.

[FallOfFingolfin]

FoF, I'll PM you about the issue you raise in your post, if that's all right.

Alright, sure.

[inkspot]

Hey, Fingolfin! I haven't seen you in ages -- we must be hanging out in different threads. I am glad you are here. :)

I don't think it would be such a huge deal if someone in school got up and started hollering at his peers that they were black-hearted and going to hell ... I think everybody is a little hysterical on the subject of religion. Aren't you in your persuasive speech going to try to make Christians feel stupid for their belief? What should someone else not have the same right as you to make you feel stupid for yours? (Not that I want you to feel stupid -- I just want you to think about what you are saying ... how awful if someone in school told people they were going to hell, but I have a right to tell Christians they are totally wrong and ruin their worldview and hope for eternity. How fair is that?)

I agree with PoTW on the HP business. I think it's fantasy story with fantasy magic that has nothing to do with the witchcraft condemned in the Bible ...

[FallOfFingolfin]

Hey, Fingolfin! I haven't seen you in ages -- we must be hanging out in different threads. I am glad you are here. :)

I don't think it would be such a huge deal if someone in school got up and started hollering at his peers that they were black-hearted and going to hell ... I think everybody is a little hysterical on the subject of religion. Aren't you in your persuasive speech going to try to make Christians feel stupid for their belief? What should someone else not have the same right as you to make you feel stupid for yours? (Not that I want you to feel stupid -- I just want you to think about what you are saying ... how awful if someone in school told people they were going to hell, but I have a right to tell Christians they are totally wrong and ruin their worldview and hope for eternity. How fair is that?)

I agree with PoTW on the HP business. I think it's fantasy story with fantasy magic that has nothing to do with the witchcraft condemned in the Bible ...

No, I am not going to say a single negative thing about the Christian religion. I am thinking more on the idea of a TEACHER coming up to the front of hte class and saying something like this. I'm not saying that the Christian religion is wrong--merely that this way of expressing it is inappropriate in this environment. My speech is about all religions, not just the Christian religion. I'm not degrading any of the religions, just stressing equality on the subject in schools, ie balanced comparative religion/theology classes.

I've been speculating more about religion again lately, so I decided to see how this place is getting on. Wow, my thread got a lot of posts! Thanks for making me feel welcome, Ink.

[Srob]

I laughed. Does that mean I'm going to Hell? :p

Definitely not. I did not mean for it to be a laughing matter, but of course if you took it that way, that's fine. If anything, I am glad that I attributed you being a happier person, because you laughed which(for however long u laughed) gave u joy. So....your welcome...lol j/k

But no, your not going to hell.

[inkspot]

I've been speculating more about religion again lately, so I decided to see how this place is getting on. Wow, my thread got a lot of posts! Thanks for making me feel welcome, Ink.
I am glad you are thinking about faith! Yes, your thread is great -- you still get answers from random people. And of course you are welcome here.

[Cereniel]

Hmmmm, God gave us immaginations didn't he? I don't think he would have given them to us if he didn't want us to use them. While there is an exception to every rule, I don't agree with humans practicing magic. Look at the mess Uncle Andrew got himself in in MN! Jadis wasn't human, but was a Witch, and evil (who would have guessed?;))
This makes me think of in FotR when Sam asked Galadriel something about her mirror and if it was magic. I can't remember exactly what she said and I'm too lazy to look it up. lol. But I believe it was something like, "Yes, I believe your people would call this magic, but it's not to us Elves." I know she said somthing totally different, but I think that was the meaning. Galadriel wasn't human, and so it wasn't magic to her. It was part of her nature. Like how humans can talk and animals can't (in the same language).
Even the Wizards weren't human. They were that word I can't remember but that I think starts with an "I". Oh, Istari, is that is? Whatever......
And in LotR and CoN, most humans who get involved in magic end up getting destroyed. (Denethor, died, suicide *cringe*so sad he felt that helpless; Uncle Andrew, planted by animals and then kinda lost it.) But like I said there is an exception to every rule and what people do is their business. Personally, I'm a Christian and wouldn't do magic. (Real magic, not Pen and Teller magic.)
In the end it all boils down to Good and Evil. And in the end God (or good!) will always win. Thats why my parents let me read HP (not that they could really keep me from a book if I wanted it! lol!) because the good guys still win! Go Good Guys! :D Oh, that and I can tell the difference between fantasy and reality. Somewhat..... ;) I DO believe in Narnia! And Santa Clause, and talking animals and giants and unicorns and griffins and centaurs and dragons and dryads and naiads and mermaids (though deep water scares me senseless!)and......

Oh, one last thing! Doesn't the Bible say that (as in Job) the Devil can hurt us and our possesions, but he can't kill us or make decisions for us? and I don't think spirits are allowed to hurt us (not that I wanna find out! yikes! lol!)

Ok,now I'm done, sorry! I tend to be long winded (nah, really?! :rolleyes: ).

[Goldenrod22]

Hi! :)
A few posts back someone mentioned the example of the Witch of Endor as a promotion of witchcraft in the Bible. I heartily disagree! If you read the story for yourself, you will see that it is an example of a BAD thing that King Saul did. He did not trust God, and turned instead to the Witch (a medium, who probably had the ability to communicate with evil spirits) to see what the future would hold.
It is his disobedience that is held up in the Bible as a BAD example. Just as God mentions the evil queen Jezebel to show what NOT to act like, so He will include examples (only ever with witchcraft/sorcery portrayed as bad) of witchcraft as BAD things.

What I find to be a big problem with Christian followers of HP is that they do not want to deny themselves of the 'good'/bad things in the book. Perhaps they can overlook the rampant crude humor, innuendo, language, and so on (which gladly, C.S. Lewis refrained from, God bless him, in Narnia) to get to the 'meat' of the books. Which I suppose might be the references to hexes on enemies (I guess 'love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you' has no merit), spells (follow up with friends on some real spells on the publisher's website! ;) ), and oh-before I forget-the lack of a truly good main character with Harry Potter himself (It is so easy to forget the numerous lies and manipulations he uses to get his own way in the end, isn't it?)

The reason I am being so forceful about this is not because I am an ultra-sensitive, hate-mongering Christian. I am saying this for the children of the next generation, who are becoming so used to the dingy waters of acceptance that they are losing sight of what is truly pure and good. The things that I see around me in the bookstore, in the movie previews, and on TV are not all what our standard should accept. I, myself have a weakness for watching things that may throw in several curse words within a half hour program. I can still remember things said in some movies that I would never have liked to hear. But I do remember, and that is the dividing point.
Remember this, if you remember nothing else after you read this post:

It is a division between exposure to evil and actual absorption of the evil, and we have begun to blur the lines separating the two.

[inkspot]

GR22, welcome back! Havent seen you in ages -- maybe we have been hanging out in the wrong threads? Anyway, welcome back. And -- what did you think of the CON movie?