Consistency and Coordination

[Copperfox]

Some of you will remember my "Monologues" threads, which poked fun at roleplayers who blindly contradict each other's posts, basically because they willfully refuse to pay attention. I don't want to produce clashing notes myself, so here's a consistency question.

My Talking Tiger characters, coming up from their defended enclave in the far south, are supposed to be following Aslan's own guidance. Now, since Aslan is God and therefore is infallible, He would not wait to send them to Narnia with orders to help humans until _after_ there was not one living human left inside Narnia's borders. Therefore I have to suppose that there still are some still-living yet not-out-of-danger Narnian humans for Ninecatcher to find out about. But I need to know--since logically Ninecatcher should have known this fact before she even entered Narnia--how _long_ Jadis has been in power at the time play began. If that's been indicated, I've missed it somehow.

[Ephinie]

Jadis is not in power yet. This is the beginning of the long winter - when she returns and starts to TAKE power. It comes at a convenient time of year because, as we are supposed to be moving into spring soon, the Narnians will begin to realize that for some reason, spring just isn't coming. This is their first clue that something is not right.

[EveningStar]

I seem to recall Tumnus telling Lucy that the White Witch makes it always winter and never Christmas. I may be wrong, but my Narnian History seems to tell me that the death of the tree of protection was what brought Jadis in rather than the long winter.

Of course when I was a young badger I fell asleep in history classes and dreamed of smoked salmon and tea with two lumps of sugar.

[Copperfox]

Yes, going by The Magician's Nephew, the Tree of Protection HAS TO have died before Jadis CAN take power. But of course, like modern Americans panicking over inflated global-warming allegations while ignoring the REAL threat of terrorism, it could be that Narnians of the current generation have become too mentally lazy to keep aware of what is and isn't their true peril.

My concern is for making my character's actions harmonious with what the situation is supposed to be. I have been operating all along on the belief that we're in a time when Jadis already HAS taken over Narnia, and a belief that the curse of winter would have been imposed by Jadis AFTER she crushed all open resistance. This is why I depicted Ninecatcher in her first post as anxiously watching for a chance to run across the Archenland-Narnia bridge unopposed--because I thought she would have cause to expect the crossing to be guarded by Jadis' forces. Was this not apparent by my saying that Gripstone was hurt fighting Minotaurs on the alternate route?

I've been expecting Ninecatcher to be sneaking around in Narnia, looking for human survivors who would be hiding from Jadis like Jews in occupied Europe hiding from the Nazis. But if Narnia isn't even conquered yet, this will radically change the procedures for my Talking Tigers. (It could feel odd calling on humans to flee when their cause ISN'T lost yet.) Can we PLEASE get the circumstances REALLY established???

[Ephinie]

The Tree of Protection is gone by this point, and Jadis is just beginning to cause it to be winter. What remains to be seen through roleplay is how the take over happens and all of the little details. But yes, she IS causing the long winter already. The winter is not allowing her in - she is already in. That doesn't mean that her power or control is assured yet, though.

[Copperfox]

In that case it would have been helpful, back when I said that Jadis already had the passes guarded, if I had then been told No, she doesn't yet. But I'll go back now and change my introductory post to reflect the fact that Ninecatcher could actually still enter Narnia openly. The Minotaurs with whom she and Gripstone had a fight, were some sort of scouting party for Jadis, not an established border patrol.

But this will call for further Deus Ex Mod-kina. If Narnia is not yet subjugated, this changes the mission which I have been declaring since I first proposed my Tiger characters. Now Ninecatcher and Gripstone must either:

-- Do nothing until Narnia IS subjugated, and then evacuate humans;

-- Fight on the side of whatever Narnian resistance there is, AS IF there were still a chance to stop Jadis; or

-- Make like Ezekiel and Jeremiah, telling Narnians, "It is not Aslan's will to allow you to succeed in resisting at this time; you must choose an alternative to open warfare."

Ephinie, do you care to speak for Aslan and tell me what IS His will for my characters?

[Ephinie]

Who says none of the passes are guarded yet? Seems like isolating a country's entries and exits is a good way to start an invasion.

[Copperfox]

But if Narnia is not yet conquered, then its ordinary citizens of assorted species would be attempting to continue routine commerce with Archenland; and Jadisite roadblocks would surely be noticed. I still have it that the alternate pass at least has Jadis' attention; but one way or another, Ninecatcher now is IN Narnia. So will she find the land in alarm with the discovery that the exit points are being seized? And is that subdued goblin part of a force which Ninecatcher and Retaw have to fight or evade?

My questions about the tigers' mission remain unaddressed. It is not good enough to say "Aslan will let them find out something one of these weeks"--because my characters were approved WITH the understanding that they ARE supposed to be under definite instructions from Aslan, so they DO know what they are meant to be doing.

Therefore, as oracle of Aslan, please give a ruling on those alternatives I listed for the mission of Ninecatcher and Gripstone.

[Ephinie]

Do whatever you want with them. The point of roleplay isn't to follow along a pre-written storyling that HAS to be played out a certain way and only that one certain way. If that's what you're looking for, you might as well write a story instead. The point of roleplay is to find out things as they are played out. Yeah, what happens in the end might be significantly different than what you expected or wanted to happen. That's roleplay. The only thing we know that IS set in stone is that Jadis will win Narnia in the end (at least for a while). How she does it and the details of her attack or invasion are what we are learning. That is the point of the roleplay.

You do not need to pick apart every single detail of everything that is going on everywhere in Narnia to have fun roleplaying. And you also don't need to sit there and ask permission before your characters do any given thing. I couldn't tell you what the heck their mission is from Aslan because they are not my characters. They are your characters. You figure it out.

And finally, keep in mind that Narnia is a large enough country that not every single region is going to get word of what is happening in every other region right away. They don't have instant communication like we do. Maybe the southern Narnians have started to notice already, but the northern ones haven't. Maybe her securing of the border to the south is in early enough stages that there haven't yet been survivors to get back and warn people. It comes back again to - every tiny detail does not need to be known in advance.

What we have done is given you all a structure in which to roleplay. This is the world of Narnia in this specific time period. The threads represent geographical differences. We haven't told you that you have to follow a specific plot or that you can't decide what your characters are doing or why. If you're looking to me to validate your roleplay or to invalidate it, then you're looking to the wrong purpose. The only roleplays that I will oppose or claim can't have happened are ones that in some way violate the canon.

EDIT: And as to the goblin, you don't need to know exactly where he came from and in what way he is connected to the larger picture, either. Your characters don't know. There's no reason you need to know now instead of finding out through roleplay.

[EveningStar]

It has always been my contention that the White Witch caused Narnia to be always winter in order to keep folks from producing their own food. That way she had an iron grip on them...rebel and you starve.

In my story "The Journey" Jadis had passed a law that hoarding food rations was an open act of treason and punishable by death. So was smuggling in food from other countries. A complex underground movement tried to keep hope alive by supplementing what the locals got with extra rations.

That being said, Copperfox, you've taken the vision of one artist and opened it up for folk to tinker with and even bend round upon itself. It will never feel comfy. That's one reason why I would be TERRIFIED to have just anyone writing dialogue for my characters in Byron on Wells. The first moment Thornton Foxworth had a dalliance with Holly, I'd have gone absolutely ballistic. Same about Bramblewood stealing money from Mr. Badger. You've opened this can of worms, now don't flinch when they squirm, dear friend. And squirm they will...that's what worms do.

[Copperfox]

My most fundamental question, I suppose, is whether or not Aslan would want the tigers to tell Narnians, "No, sorry, you WON'T be allowed to succeed in repelling the invasion." That one question is not at all picking apart every detail. If left on my own to choose Aslan's will in this area, I will say yes to that--yes to telling Narnians to accept the inevitable and go from there.

[Ephinie]

In deciding that, you might want to ask yourself if your characters are hearing directly from Aslan in some kind of direct-communication or if they are basing their knowledge of what is going to happen in faith and in the stories that their ancestors have been passing down to them through the ages. Mortal creatures are flawed, even ones on divine missions. I'm sure you are creative enough to consider all possibilities, though.

[EveningStar]

If you would be bold enough to attribute the death of the Tree of Protection to an act of stupidity or impiety, that might give you some reasoning for what happened.

Assuming for a moment that Jadis, who was gathering her forces in the north and waiting in cold storage, wanted to find herself a useful idiot. Assuming that she gave him Satan's bill of goods...cut down the tree and I, your lover, will become ruler and you will share my kingdom!

That would have the overarching quality of Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge. It would also explan why, as with saving Edmund, Aslan would have to be vague. "I might not be there to help you in the battle. You must be ready to deploy your forces tomorrow."

We know there were ancient prophesies about the four thrones in Cair Paravel. And we know that there were ancient prophesies about Aslan returning and winter meets its death. Who is the prophet? How vague are those prophesies? There is no mention of a time frame. Even the White Witch never knew when the four thrones would be filled and had to keep paid spies on the lookout for sons of Adam and daughters of Eve.

My story "Heart of Ice" dealt with this scenario. A half-wit second-born prince from Archenland was the only bloke on hand to supply a successor to the Narnian throne. The White Witch appeared to him when he tried to look into the divining pool the Archenland kings used to tell the future. She led him to believe she would be his queen and that he would live forever if he cut down the tree of protection and made himself and her wreaths from the topmost branches of the tree. He brought her the evidence that the deed was done and she stabbed him through the chest. "Here is my kiss, o prince!" For a moment before he collapsed dead he realized that deeds to the Brooklyn Bridge aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

The High Mage Orbereth had a vision of four who would fill the thrones. His final prophesy was smuggled out of prison before he was executed.

[Copperfox]

It has always been my openly-stated premise that the emigrant Narnian tigers have a DIRECT AND OPEN command from Aslan to come back north and help humans. That is how I will play Ninecatcher and Gripstone. As for the goblin, the reason why I asked whether he had buddies around was precisely because, as I've been saying, I didn't KNOW how far along the invasion was, and I didn't want to be inventing circumstances which would contradict the plans of Mods. On this point, left to my own judgment, I will say that there are other goblins.

[Ephinie]

Keep in mind that I am also not the one who introduced your goblin friend. I wouldn't be able to tell you anything about him because I don't know myself.

[EveningStar]

Don't goblins come from Turkey? ;)

[Inkling]

Agreed, on all counts. I am with Ephinie...the Tree of Protection is gone, Jadis has started to impose power by sending her forces out to begin to secure the land, and the Long Winter has started, though not everyone would be aware of it yet.

Copperfox, you do have freedom to develop your tigers' mission in that direction. I see that there would be a few humans in Narnia, as I have said, but that they would not be extensive or well organized. Jadis /knows/ the prophecy, and she's going to fairly swiftly try and ensure that there aren't any Sons of Adam and Daughters of Eve around to take her (still tenuous) grip on power.

She's gathered her army and built her castle, and she doesn't want much information to leak south (or many of her subjects to make it south). The earliest dissenters have been subdued, but she's also smart enough to realize that the longer it takes the majority of Narnians to realize that winter isn't going to go away and that she's got a grip on the country, the better.

Thus, your tigers still have a mission.

I also agree with EveningStar. You've given us the world, but whenever you allow cowriters the story will never end up exactly where you've planned it.

*FACEHOOFS* I have sailed past the shore of Turkey, and didn't notice any goblins hanging around Ephesis. Go ahead and make more if you want. The mods (at least this mod) don't have a firm plan for where the storyline is going, as long as it's consistent with the guidelines we've established.

[~Lava~]

I hate to say this guys, but there is actual book evidence that at least implies that it was quite obvious when the winter came on. In LWW, they look down at the waterfall below the Beaver's Dam and conjecture that the water must have been flowing due to the forms that the ice made. The water of Narnia was flowing when the winter came on so it was not that the previous winter just never ended. The power over the seasons that Jadis held and demonstrated was undoubtably a swift and powerful intimidation ploy that scared the mainly-beast creatures of Narnia into submission fairly rapidly. She probably worked out her plans and started her coup before she used the winter. In essence, the winter was the fait accompli of the witch's rise to power.

[Copperfox]

My Tigress character Ninecatcher (in "Snow") set out intending to do some kind of networking within Narnia, to facilitate a large-scale evacuation of humans from there. But her mission has just become small-scale, as one orphaned human girl has been thrown upon her protection. Ninecatcher can't ignore the immediate needs of an individual in favor of a _theoretical_ chance of helping greater numbers; she will therefore bend her efforts to getting the child (and possibly a Faun joining them) out to the refuge of Archenland.

But as for _which_ way to go: Ninecatcher has good cause to expect that Jadis will be aware of the recent penetrations of the southern mountains, at both the main and secondary passes. If she heads directly back that way, she and those under her care likely will be intercepted. Which leads to a geography question: am I right in understanding that Jadis' headquarters is more in the western than the eastern half of Narnia?

I contemplate Ninecatcher trying to be unpredictable for the enemy. Jadis has no power to wipe the Eastern Ocean out of existence; so if Ninecatcher and her charges can get to the coast, they may be able to find a way to travel south by water. Second question: which of the threads would I be entering in an attempt to reach the ocean?

[Ephinie]

First to Lava: One waterfall freezing in one place doesn't mean that it was spring when the winter came on or that all of Narnia was frozen over all at once. The fact that a waterfall froze at all is remarkable, because usually even during winter flowing water does not freeze like that. At least not normally. So that reference in the book so far has not caused us a problem with consistency.

Next to Copperfox: Here are some links to some maps.
http://unhinged-gargoyle.deviantart.com/art/Map-of-Narnia-85997055


http://www.scriptoriumnovum.com/l/g/narniamap02.gif

http://toknowasiamknown.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/narnia-map.jpg

We know from reading the the witch's castle thread that the witch does seem to be currently in her castle. So figure out your route based on the maps. I personally find the first one the easiest to decipher in terms of where things are. The second one is the one found in the books, and the last is the one made for the movies.

[Copperfox]

Thank you, looks to me as if Ninecatcher needs to make a beeline into the Woods thread. This, apart from the cold weather, should be the best escaping terrain a tiger could ask for, and noplace near Jadis' likely location. Note also that, on the basis of real biology, no two wolves, let alone one, should have the slightest chance against a tiger of either sex, and even a werewolf (in a world where it enjoys NO invulnerability) would be at a disadvantage.

[MagicalHobo777]

This rp looks interesting...But one question:

What happened to the non-Narnia Role-Playing?

Did they do away with it?

If so, Im sad :(

[Copperfox]

Yes, they did eliminate it. One exception: if you search in the Duffers area, there is a thread called "At The Steakhouse," in which a sort of roleplaying still is allowed precisely because NOT taken seriously. Look at it from the beginning, and there's a chance it will make some sense to you. :rolleyes:

[Inkling]

Also, Jadis /is/ currently in her castle, plotting away. Whether LO has any plans to move her...well, that's up to her. Ya pays your crescents and ya takes your choice. :)

[Copperfox]

Name: Raoulin de Carrefour
Species: Son of Adam
Current Age: 47 (as of 3/24/2009)
Place of Origin: Telmar



I thought that, from the time "the" Caspian took power, Telmar was simply annexed to Narnia, no longer separate at all. Not that it affects me.

[Ephinie]

I thought that, from the time "the" Caspian took power, Telmar was simply annexed to Narnia, no longer separate at all. Not that it affects me.

It is made clear in Prince Caspian that the Telmarines had invaded Narnia a long time ago and set up house there, as the current line of Narnian kings had descended from them. But the subject of whether or not there were still Telmarines in Telmar was never addressed. There was likewise never mention of if there was still a political body over there. Thus, Raoulin de Carrefour is assumed to be from a political body that is still in Telmar as we need a villain in order to have a story. Since Rilian is Caspian's son, it made sense to me that he would wish to establish an official relationship with any political body that might still be left over in Telmar. Likewise, I also figured that based on Rilian's personal experience with the Green Witch, he would almost certainly not be duped by another devious, plotting woman. Fool me once, and all of that.

[Copperfox]

My Tigress is heading for Glasswater Creek, trying to minimize her distance with a child and faun riding on her back on the way to Archenland. Does this put her in "Southern Marches" or "Great Woods"? If the latter, that would not necessarily put her and her vulnerable charges in the way of events otherwise happening there.

[Inkling]

I'd go for the Southern Marches, but I'll leave that to you. Also, you can pass through the Woods without interacting with the other group. :D

[~Lava~]

I have a question for Little Otter. What does Jadis expect to accomplish with the kitten? She would know that we would be suspicious of any way that the cat tries to communicate with her. They don't trust the trees so the cat cannot talk to the trees to relay the message. The Spectre has been seen and is known by the other animals so the Spectre is out. Icefang and Kayla, though not knowing the cat itself, would know any other emissaries of the queen. And it would be suspicious if the cat left for a little while and then came back again every-so-often. So why?

[Little Otter]

I have a question for Little Otter. What does Jadis expect to accomplish with the kitten?

The kitten is a spy, obviously. ;)

She would know that we would be suspicious of any way that the cat tries to communicate with her.

Well, yes, but only if it's obvious that the kitten is trying to communicate with Jadis. Which it will not be. Got that?

They don't trust the trees so the cat cannot talk to the trees to relay the message.

Duly noted. :)

The Spectre has been seen and is known by the other animals so the Spectre is out.

It'd be pretty obvious that the Spectre is on Jadis's side. No good creature is going to willingly associate with something so obviously evil. However, Spectres - by the definition used by the person playing the only Spectre in the game - are excellent at stealth and getting from place to place quickly. They can spread out so as to be hardly visible if they wish, they make no noise, and they're very good at the whole now-you-see-them, now-you-don't thing. So the fact that people have seen Spyros isn't going to stop Jadis from using him, and it does NOT mean that he will be seen.

Icefang and Kayla, though not knowing the cat itself, would know any other emissaries of the queen.

Not necessarily. Jadis has a vast army, and she isn't so foolish as to let her spies be recognizable by the majority of her soldiers.

And it would be suspicious if the cat left for a little while and then came back again every-so-often. So why?

No, actually, it wouldn't. Not unless you were taking what you know out-of-character and giving that knowledge to your character, which I'm sure you wouldn't do. ;) Case in point: Icefang just ran off to who-knows-where - ostensibly to the woods, but how do YOU know that? And yet, nobody is questioning him, even though you all know quite well that he worked for the Witch at one point. That whole shindig with the henchwuffie could have been an elaborate scheme to get Icefang into your good graces - that's not beyond Jadis. And even so, the object of your in-character suspicions is a cute, fluffy, half-starved, half-frozen three-month-old kitten. Seeing any problems here?

In order to role-play well, you have to throw what you know - you, the player - out the window. That means no trusting a former agent of the Witch because you saw in the thread two down from the one your character is involved in that he or she had a life-changing experience, and no suspecting a kitten (who has given no IC indication that he is anything more than a helpless fuzzy thing needing protection) because you read that the Witch sent him after your characters.

One more thing - don't forget that this is not a happy-ending RP. Jadis rules Narnia for the next 100 years. We're here to play in C.S. Lewis's sandbox and have a good time - don't try to change canon. ;)

THIS POST IN ITS ENTIRETY ENDORSED BY INKLING!

[~Lava~]

I am well aware of the fact that we are playing in Jack's sandbox. I also know that Jadis had not stamped out all of the resistance even after having reigned for 100 years. I think that sending the kitten right now was a mistake. We are moving too fast. I think that there can be a happy ending for our characters, even though Narnia's is a long way off. And no, I would never concieve of using OOC knowledge. If you had read through the Latern Waste thread. You would note that Ava is incredibly suspicious of everyone, it is natural in foxes. It was only after Icefang risked his life for the rest that Ava even considered making friends with him. If I do not come off as suspicious of everyone in my posts, I have failed in my preconcieved notion of my character.

[faithfulpurelight]

*shrugs* Suspicious is one thing, but I think it's a little strange that she doesn't trust Sterling when all he's seemed is pathetic and in need of help. *shrugs again* People risk their lives if it's part of the Witch's plan, for fear of otherwise. I think the real thing is, the whole threatning to leave him if he doesn't act within your specific rules. Kittens are curious, they wander away on their own, and such.

And I think if you want a happy ending, you gotta go to Archenland or something. Because the Witch stomps on any resistance by turning them to stone. Everyone else stays very quiet and doesn't talk about it in the open and such.

[~Lava~]

Some of the suspicion that you think I am aiming at you, is really aimed at the trees nearby. Like I said in the post that you were not supposed to "hear", I think that you are too young to be part of our resistance plans and therefore will not discuss it with you. I don't want to endanger your life. Also, you are kind of seeing what years of being an older sibling and an Aunt bring to my character. I was always told by my older siblings not to tell Mary or Bethie about something, they'd spill the beans. Thus Ava is treating you like a lovable little tattle-telling sibling who one doesn't tell important things because they cannot keep their mouth shut.

[Inkling]

*sagenods* See? See why she's Jadis? :D. Thank you, LO, for saying /exactly/ what I would have far more eloquently than I did elsewhere. I have seen a great deal of borderline blurring of the IC/OOC distinction.

Jadis can send whoever she wants, unicorns are always good, specters, hags, giants, goblins and weres are always eeeeeevil.

Thus it is written.

I have seen /nothing/ suspicious about the kitten yet which would trigger treating him as anything else but what he is presenting himself as: alone, little, and helpless.

[Copperfox]

No, some Giants are GOOD. In fact, the "Snow" roleplay is the VERY time when Giant Rumblebuffin from LWW should be seen getting petrified as he fought heroically against the enemies of Narnia.

[Petraverd]

...and it is /also/ stated not a sentence or two after Rumblebuffin is de-stonified that 'so few giants are good-tempered.' I would imagine the general thought when any Narnian encounters a giant would be they would be the general bad-tempered not-exactly-pleasant-to-meet kind of giant rather than the very rare good-tempered ones.

The Buffins were known as such, granted, but I still highly doubt giants are well looked upon. Not to mention I rather doubt many good giants will be approved for this RPG for reasons stated above. ;)

[Inkling]

*nods in agreement* It is the exception rather than the rule...though if a plausible case were made I would take it under advisement. I'm sure Ephinie has her own thoughts on that too.

[Copperfox]

I certainly wasn't campaigning for player-character giants. I want Rumblebuffin himself to be seen!

[Copperfox]

Paging Doctor Who! Paging Doctor Who!

We may have a timestream problem in "Snow." The wolf character Sennulf, bringing his pack to the "Pass" thread, found the area where my tigress and others had slain some goblins and taken smaller characters in tow. Sennulf said:

>> They've only been gone five days at most, and the humans will slow them considerably."

In the progress of time as I've played, Ninecatcher and those with her have not yet even gotten through ONE full twenty-four-hour day. So if Sennulf and Co. are only as far as our starting point at a time four or five days after the village party got underway, they should be hard put to overtake us even WITH humans burdening us. But we need to know if the added time in Sennulf's reckoning is somehow counting back earlier, putting him closer to us in time.

Actually, Sennulf had better HOPE he doesn't overtake us. Given the comparative capabilities of tigers and wolves, that wolfpack will be a LOT smaller in number after any confrontation with Ninecatcher; and she will make a point of killing the leader.

[Simetra]

A couple things in reply to this... first, about the time thing-- sorry, I'll fix that. Apparently I wasn't reading the dates on the posts well enough, and I wanted d to make sure I didn't just say "BOO! Suddenly Sennulf is right on your heels, even though he just found out!" I'll edit it, though.
As for whether or not the battle will work out... firstly, there's no point in telling me that ooc because it's not a warning to me, it's to my Wolf, who can't hear you. ;) Secondly, although you are right to say that a Tiger (and even a Tigress, although they are a lot smaller than Tigers) would be more powerful than a Wolf, size is more equible in Narnia than in our world. Thirdly, be aware that this is the Captain of the Queen's guard we are talking about. He knows what he is doing. And his guard... may or may not be entirely made up with Wolves. ;)
Thanks for the note about time, it's good to know there's someone keeping things consistent. :D

[Copperfox]

"Large" means REALLY large, like elephants, and "small" is like mice. If you need proof, note in "The Horse and His Boy" that the Talking Horses did not appear any different to the eye than ordinary horses. Tigers and wolves likewise fall in a middle range of size, and will NOT be altered physically.

It's appropriate to remark on this OOC, because a player should not be allowed to think erroneously that even the biggest and smartest wolf ever whelped would have a snowflake's chance against even a female tiger, who is both stronger AND more agile. To summarize intellectually, nanny-nanny-pooh-pooh.

[Simetra]

That assumes that we will fight fair, and not gang up on you. And again, that we have only Wolves.

[Little Otter]

Hee. Yeah. Never assume the evil characters will fight fair. ;)

[FONT="Georgia"] Paging Doctor Who! Paging Doctor Who!

Could blow a hole in the space-time continuum the size of... well, the exact size of Belgium, actually. That's a bit undramatic, isn't it? Belgium? =P

[Inkling]

Okay. Let me clarify a couple of issues that have come up, and where I, at least, stand on them as one of the RP mods.

1) This situation with Ninecatcher and the humans: Ninecatcher and Retaw /did/ deal with the goblins, and it makes sense for Jadis to send out forces after them to see what happened. That seems logical to me.

Also, I'd like to not watch this degenerate into 'pro-wolf'/'anti-wolf' sentiments. There are good and bad wolves, just like there are good and bad people. Part of the REASON, at least, for me, that this idea resonated is because it allows us to explore the choice to either stand firm against evil and oppose it, possibly suffering the consequences, or contribute to the evil either through ignorance or pride.

And there's always requesting a character who isn't a wolf. ;)

While I agree that the timing for Sennulf's pack to follow is off (and I'll discuss that in more details later), it makes sense that Ninecatcher and those she's protecting are not going to be unchallenged.

Also, Copperfox, if there /is/ combat, there will be a panel of judges who will determine the outcome. And I would not condone having any character die without a /very/ good IC explanation for why it is fitting and necessary.

Oh...one more thing. Looks to me like there was only one scout wolf that you might have seen...not the whole pack.


2) Drainor and his blindness: Josh, I feel like you're still taking this somewhat personally...and that does not make for fun RP. Let it turn him a better character. Drainor has found himself in a fairly precarious position. Whether it is deserved or not is beside the point. Jadis has reason to think it is, and I don't see her being kindly disposed towards /anyone/.

Yay for (naturally arising) drama. He has two choices, that I can see: he can try to regain Jadis's goodwill (most likely through grovelling) or he can cut his losses and join those opposing Jadis. I do not anticipate that there would be anyone Jadis wouldn't stab in the back.

If he gets into her confidence again, she might reverse the spell. Otherwise, I'm going to insist that you find a /logical/ way if you want him to regain his sight.

3) Timing I think we need to move slightly ahead. Let's say this is the second day since RP began, and we can add in sleep 'tonight'.

[Copperfox]

Inkling, are you saying that, when the pursuers were openly moving around the southern village not long after the fugitives had left it, my NPC Faun could not have seen their unconcealed activity from a hill?

I sure don't object to having had some time for GOOD guys to converge on my vulnerable party--such as the absent and sorely missed Gryphon--but sleep? How much sleep would you pause for if you were fleeing for your life from foes who were only a few miles behind? Ninecatcher, for her part, got a nap in the late afternoon of the first day, and she is driven to fulfill her mission of mercy.

As for combat, I am not trying to decide blow-by-blow in advance; it's just that, amid all the wolf-machismo talk, I find it fitting to remind folks of the facts of biology. Not only can any adult tiger easily massacre the toughest wolf there ever was; the tiger could do it fast enough that the first wolf killed would be dead before other wolves could execute a concerted attack. Meaning that, on the tiger's worst day, the wolves could not possibly lose less than three of their number before they had even a chance of pulling down the tiger.

[Simetra]

The Wolves weren't out in the open. The one Wolf was, then he moved back to the pack and they did their work in a more concealed area (certainly not undetectable, but the pose given was a little iffy). As for the wind, I apologize if it sounded like they were downwind by chance. They were purposefully downwind, and checking the wind constantly to be aware of its direction. Hunters do this, and Sennulf is, shall we say, an experienced hunter. However, if a mod thinks this is godmodding of the elements, I will be happy to change my pose.

[Knight of Narnia]

Hey CF,

Hopefully soon my group will be traveling further south after we finish our business in the Great Woods. Having Icefang and Kayla added to your numbers would certainly help out Ninecatcher with Sennulf's pack, esp. since Icefang would already be familiar with the tactics of Jadis' wolves (being a former Lieutenant in her army).

[Copperfox]

Simetra, I was not accusing you of god-modding. Anyone can invent _some_ of their own circumstances, or we wouldn't be able to get anywhere; but that means I _also_ can invent some. And what I "invented" for Laertes the Faun was entirely reasonable. The now-deserted village is just that, a village, a human habitation for farmers--which means, inevitably and indisputably, that there is a whole bunch of _cleared_ land there. In the woods, sure, your wolves and shapechangers could hide out; but unless they all have invisibility cloaks, an observer at a height _would_ see them in the village. As it is, I made a concession by NOT claiming that Laertes detected the shapechangers. But even if the assembling of the improvised sled was itself done out of sight, their action of _bringing_ the lumber to the hidden place _would_ have been visible.

Knight of Narnia, thanks! I will SO take all the help I can get! Just remember that Ninecatcher is not going to _assume_ wolves to be friendly.

[~Lava~]

CF, It may take us a little while to get there, we all have caught ourselves up in a battle that wounded us on the first day and we have to collect my family. Then we have to get to your location. The animals we are tend to be Nocturnal or Crepuscular in nature, I am thinking that we will sleep for a few hours at my parents house and then turn south to try to catch up with you.

[Simetra]

Seeing the Wolf collect lumber makes total sense to me. I agree with you, he could easily see that. The thing I am not sure about is the rest of the pack.
The Wolf that collected lumber was a scout. That means he was far ahead and away from the pack. The pack itself would be elsewhere, by definition of the scout's job.
I think the problem is that I didn't communicate time well enough. It would have been a goodish distance (and therefore time) between when the scout came upon the village and when he returned to the pack.

[Inkling]

Oh, I have no problem with Laertes seeing the scout. I just understood from the post what Simetra was saying...that the rest of the pack is some distance away.

Also, while I am all right with Ninecatcher's party joining up with Icefang's, be certain that it would be plausible IC for this to happen. And no, Ninecatcher wouldn't necessarily sleep with the danger, but I /am/ moving us ahead to the beginning of the next day.

[Copperfox]

I'll modify my post so Laertes only actually saw that one; but what he did see still is enough for him to give the exact same warning to Ninecatcher, and for her to take the same precaution. And yes, she will have pressed on through the night, as much as was physically possible for her flock.

Note also that, in accordance with discussions Aravis-Y and I had long before now, the Gryphon Retaw should already be searching by air for either Ninecatcher or Marius, whichever he would spot first.

[Inkling]

I have to say how /thrilled/ I am to be told that I'm showing favoritism towards the evils *Inky's sarcasm meter 'splodes*. So...let's talk about time and distance in a forum RP:

1) Days don't necessarily follow a normal 24 hour pattern.

2) I (or Ephinie) don't necessarily have to declare a day /ended/. I personally try to provide time-related information subtly in my posts. See what's happening in Cair Paravel in the Silver and Sovereigns game for an example. There have already been two full 'days' since the start of RP.

3) I expect that you'll behave reasonably. After a decent amount of posts, by mutual agreement, it can be night and then morning. If you need me to control time myself, I can do that. Let me point out that I really /haven't/ been. In my last post here, I tried to move things ahead, and apparently that wasn't seen either.

4) As for our specific situation: A highly trained wolf pack, knowledgeable of the terrain and unencumbered by the young and the weak, would /logically/ move more quickly than a tigress who is encumbered with humans/fauns/etc.

5) In terms of distance...I figure the Queen's Castle is on the eastern border between Lantern Waste and the Southern Marches. The pass to Archenland is right at the bottom of that region. The Dancing Lawn is at the northern end. Again, that's why it's possible for the evil types to be in Lantern Waste or the Marches quickly. I don't have a perfect map in my head, but I have some idea.

6) Please realize that I am trying to be as /fair/ as possible towards both sides. It is not always easy. Ephinie is doing the same. I would prefer that complaints/suggestions/praise/etc. be brought to me instead of being scattered around to everyone else. It is the same reason I was so unhappy with what had been going on before we opened: talking about it behind our backs helps nothing. I do try to listen to reason, and I hope I am not unfairly influencing the outcome.

7) Copperfox, you are pretty certain Ninecatcher will die. I am not. Besides which, as before stated, a panel makes the decision when it comes to battles, again, precisely so it WILL be as far an outcome as possible.

8) I'm creating a new OOC thread here for all this sort of discussion. I've noticed quite a bit of it cluttering up the RP threads and that shouldn't be happening.

Okay...dealing with this didn't really help my massive headache...:(

IN ORDER TO MAKE CERTAIN THAT WE TRY TO KEEP THE THREADS AT AROUND THE SAME TIME I AM MOVING ALL THE 'SNOW' THREADS AHEAD TO THE NEXT MORNING (I.E. THE SECOND DAY SINCE RP BEGAN). IN YOUR NEXT POSTS, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO TOUCH ON WHAT HAPPENED DURING THE REST OF THE 'NIGHT' AND THEN MOVE AHEAD.

[Ephinie]

So here's my two cents:

First off, yes, a group of wolves running at top speed will always overtake a group that has humans in it. If you want, I'll look up some statistics about how much ground actual wolves can cover in one night. It is several miles, I know that much. If the tiger or other four-legged creatures let the two-leggeds ride on their backs, of course they can cover more ground. But they still won't outrun wolves if you're getting down to an actual chase scenario. Even a cheetah would run more slowly if it had something on its back. I don't know that you guys actually are being chased per se, but logically wolves can cover huge amounts of ground in a seemingly short time. They also don't have to stop to eat every day as humans would.

Secondly, time is fluid. It is going to be incredibly difficult for us to keep tabs on specifically how many days have passed and when and how long each day is. There are several people who have to post, and sometimes a person might wait three or four days before posting. A bit of flexibility is required, as we can't control other people's characters.

Last, back to this issue of combat. Losing a duel does not mean that the character automatically dies. This system allows for a huge amount of various outcomes. The purpose of it is to determine who is victorious in any given fight as well as to allow for an if/then consequence. For example, let's say Raoulin and Torin fight a duel. Raoulin wants to cut off Torin's trigger finger. Torin wants to cut off Raoulin's goatee. IF Petraverd and I agree to the stakes beforehand, then the winner of the duel gets what he wants. Death to the character will ONLY happen if the two people fighting agree BEFORE the duel begins that death is the consequence of losing. Once you agree to terms and start the duel, the decision is then made by the three judges as to who wins. So, in that respect, you no longer have control over what will happen to your character until the consequence is fullfilled. So. Don't agree on death for the stakes if you don't want to die.

[Copperfox]

Okay, trying to be to the point, never having had it as my goal to give Inkling headaches:

1) By favoritism, I mean the effect in practice, not a warped inner motive. I never thought of Inkling as warped!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2) Simetra reports being directly told that "time was fluid."

3) I was not directly told that time was fluid to anything like the extent that was helping Sennulf, and I constantly indicated to fellow players that I was going hour by hour. My movement to and from the village reveals that I wasn't going on the now-promoted understanding of the timestream.

4) Sure, wolves are faster than humans--but across half a country, without advance knowledge of where my party was, or whither bound?

5) No, I don't _want_ my character to die.

6) But given the enemy's genocidal character, why should we expect mercy?

7) Can I make at least so much use of this fluid time as to say that Gripstone has been brought back to shape by some potion or other, and, knowing exactly (thanks to Retaw) what Ninecatcher was doing, he has raced unencumbered and continued on a reciprocal course to find her, and so arrives in time to stand with her?

8) I'm not even asking for Gripstone to have a troop of NPC's with him like Sennulf has.

9) But in any case, if my Tigress and maybe her mate are killed, I won't mind it so much if only some humans can escape somehow, since my Tigers always were prepared to sacrifice their lives to save humans.

[Ephinie]

7) Can I make at least so much use of this fluid time as to say that Gripstone has been brought back to shape by some potion or other, and, knowing exactly (thanks to Retaw) what Ninecatcher was doing, he has raced unencumbered and continued on a reciprocal course to find her, and so arrives in time to stand with her?

I really don't see an issue with Gripstone being recovered if you want him to be recovered. He isn't my character, so I don't control him. That means I couldn't tell you exactly what to do with him and for how long. If you think it's reasonable for him to be back in action, then by all means, do with your character what you think ought to be done with him. The only stipulation that we put on Gripstone before was that people are supposed to wait two weeks between character requests, and I'm pretty sure it's been more than two weeks since we got the RP section back up and running.

[Copperfox]

Thank you. In that case, whatever else happens, Gripstone will be with his true love come good or ill.

[Knight of Narnia]

Ink or Eph - One thing I did not think about when I created Blackclaw was how to handle the inevitable combat between him and Icefang. I mean, since I control both.... how do I make them fight each other? :confused:

[Copperfox]

Actually, I think that this should be the EASIEST of all combats to create. Precisely because you own both characters, no OTHER player's satisfaction is at stake...so just imagine the fight as if you were writing a story, and YOU decide who wins.

[Little Otter]

I have a question for Copperfox. It's not a huge issue, but I'm interested. The language Ninecatcher is using to communicate with Gripstone - what sort of explanation do you have for that? In the books, English is the only language spoken, even in Calormen, Telmar, and the Islands, and I don't recall any mentions of any sort of language barrier.

[Copperfox]

English is the only language definitely depicted in the books as being used. But since Lewis refers to multiple instances of the Narnian world being entered--and since the adult-Pevensie epilogue of the BOOK of Lion/Witch/Wardrobe indicates MANY nations existing in that world, not just the six or seven directly portrayed (see also Horse/Boy, mentioning multiple smaller nations)--there could have been other languages brought into some corners of that world. Just consider the "islander" women who came with the first Telmarines; there was NO WAY that English would have been THEIR native tongue. And my tigers grew up in the far south, where they could have encountered a "minority" language.

If you just click my own tiger graphic, you'll see my novel "Southward the Tigers," which contains my speculation of how the Calormenes could have originated. With Calormenes having RACIAL difference from Narnian humans, it's not unreasonable for them to have had blood of other than British origin. That was my premise in "Southward".... and the "Snow" roleplay is in part consciously based on that story of mine--that is, based on what would have flowed from the things I speculated.

[Little Otter]

Ah, I see. That makes sense. To a point. Both the examples of possible sources of other languages you cited speak English in the book... and not just a sort of corruption of English like Frank and Helen originally spoke when they arrived, but formal, well-structured English. I almost wonder if their speech didn't change when they arrived in Narnia (meaning the world, not just the country), like Frank and Helen's did... as a sort of coming into the vocation of being a Son of Adam or a Daughter of Eve in a world where that means something.

...not to say that being human doesn't mean something in our world too, but all sorts of abstract concepts are more Real in Narnia. And also not to say that English is superior to any other language, just that it's what Lewis used.

Just conjecture. Lewis left a lot of empty spaces, and my theory's really no more likely to be correct than yours at the end of the day. :D

[~Lava~]

I think that over the years, a dialect that was corrupted could have developed among certain isolated groups. Also, who is to say that animals and dryads and such did not develop ways of their own to speak.

[Copperfox]

Thanks for being openminded, Otter. Note that I said the island WOMEN, not the sailors/pirates who married/abducted them. The women would have been Polynesian or something close. And although the Calormenes would have adopted English as the language of the first culture to exist in that world, the radical phonetic difference in their names could at least conceivably reflect ancestral language. Consider how many ancient Jews assumed the Greek language when they settled in Greek-speaking territory, but the Hebrew language still was retained by some persons among them.

[Petraverd]

*cough*

Radical /phonological/ differences. Not phonetic. Big difference in those two terms. They're both structured with the same phonemic inventory, they're just put together differently.

</linguistics major rant>

[Copperfox]

They have the same inventory because Mr. Lewis was WRITING it all in one language. He couldn't easily have included accent-egule, soft-signs, demi-vowels, etc., even if he hadn't been writing for kids. This is not enough to prove conclusively that the names couldn't be reflecting different origins.

* Earned living as a linguist for 14 years *

[Petraverd]

Precisely why you can't /say/ there are radical phonetic differences. You can't tell from the text itself, there's no way of knowing what sounds make up a written word without hearing it /said/, regardless of the letters used. Hence, no phonetic data to really work with to say one way or another. Phonological ones, on the other hand, make themselves a bit more obvious - even without knowing precisely how something is pronounced, it's easier to get an idea of syllable structure and such things, at least. Minimal data, admittedly, but more than nothing.

I'm not arguing that they can't signify different origins, either. Just making sure the proper terms are used in the right place.

But I suppose that's neither here nor there in concern with the RPG.

[Inkling]

Oh, I would argue (and have) that semantic explorations are VERY important. And Petra's right about the differences between phonological and phonetic differences. You would need much more data than could /possibly/ be gleaned from the CoN to make any kind of definitive statement regarding the latter.

Ah, shades of linguistics classes haunt me still! While it is certainly interesting to speculate, and the filmmakers would likely agree with Copper, I'd say that we should be careful about the terms we use, which was Petra's point...and certainly the man who created Ransom would have understood linguistics. :D

[Ephinie]

Actually, I think that this should be the EASIEST of all combats to create. Precisely because you own both characters, no OTHER player's satisfaction is at stake...so just imagine the fight as if you were writing a story, and YOU decide who wins.
Yah, what he said.

[Little Otter]

They have the same inventory because Mr. Lewis was WRITING it all in one language. He couldn't easily have included accent-egule, soft-signs, demi-vowels, etc., even if he hadn't been writing for kids. This is not enough to prove conclusively that the names couldn't be reflecting different origins.

*chuckles* Didn't stop Tolkien...

[Copperfox]

"Lord of the Rings" and "The Silmarillion" were written presupposing an older audience than the main audience Narnia was aimed at.

[Copperfox]

It's been about five days since there was a new post on the "Northern Marshes" thread. Mods, may I be allowed to suppose that Woefulgut's ship DOES reach Archenland safely? I realize that this puts my Marshwiggle days ahead of all other characters chronologically, so he must then be put on pause till others catch up.

[Inkling]

I have no problem with that, Copperfox. I thought I'd responded on your profile. Ah, well. Safe landings. :D

[Knight of Narnia]

Hey guys,

How can we handle the trees' response in the Great Woods thread?

I want to give it a chance to answer, but it shouldn't be anyone holding a PC who would answer.

[Admiral Halsey]

*inserts an answer regardless*

Traditional Roleplaying convention leaves the management of an NPC to the player whom introduced it to the roleplay.

Failing that, the responce is mutally handled between the group, if the introducer only wanted to add the element in, rather than control it.

[Copperfox]

Have people seen my suggestion which would take the evil tree-spirit out of action without killing it? We can say that if a tree-spirit gets the chance to emerge from its tree and is given a fresh piece of root from its tree, it can replant itself and survive the destruction of the rest of its tree; but it will be unable to spy and report for at least months while it sprouts.

This mercy can be offered to the RP tree if it 'fesses up.

Time to note something: the super-powerful trees in the movie "Prince NON-Caspian" were an exaggeration. If Lewis had meant the conscious trees of Narnia to be tougher than Ents, he never would have shown a Dryad perishing by "mere" human hands in the book "The Last Battle." So if these RP's have something to do with the Narnia books, the evil tree currently of interest should NOT be able to smash the good guys.

[Admiral Halsey]

That's a good point actually.

For the purposes of roleplay on this forum, what is considered 'Canon' Narnia? The books? The Films? Or a the best middle path between the two?

Is fanfiction considered canon? If not, are there any exceptions?

This seems an excellent point of consistancy and co-ordination to establish.

I like Copperfox, belive I would prefear to stick to the books interpretation, since they are the orginal work of C.S. Lewis, rather than a reinterpratation.

I belive 'Mod approved' fanfiction should also be considered.

[Copperfox]

Mr. Lewis' books are entitled to be "the last word," because they came first. And though I say it with an axe to grind, fan fiction which does NOT contradict Mr. Lewis head-on (as "Prince NON-Caspian" did intentionally contradict him head-on) also deserves consideration. The "Snow" roleplay is based in part on the premises of my fanfic novel "Southward the Tigers;" and seeing no Mod-generated explanation of HOW Jadis gained control of Narnia, I have urged acceptance of the explanation EveningStar offered in his "Byron on Wells" series.

[~Lava~]

If it has a chance to replant itself, what is to prevent it from doing it in such a way as to cause to alert the witch to suspicious activity. No, if we go that route we ought to replant it in a place where it will not cause us harm.

[Simetra]

If I may step in, I have some experience with other Narnia roleplay which may bring in some insight in this.

I am definitely in agreement that the books (not the movie or fanfiction) have final say on how things would work in roleplay. It is both respectful to Lewis's world and less confusing. However, this is the perfect case to bring up Lewis' inconsistencies. His dryads change character so much that it is necessary to establish which type of dryad to use. (For instance, sometimes it seems that a dryad's spirit can leave its tree indeterminately, other times it seems that it can only be away for a short time and short distance. Sometimes a dryad seems the guard of all of that species, other times it appears to just be the spirit of one tree). From what I have researched into them, I think Copperfox's observations about their strength is correct, though this certainly varies from LWW to PC to LB. I don't know how many details we as a roleplay group want to establish, but it may be easiest to say that different species of tree have different personalities-- so the jovial ones that dance for weeks with the fauns are, say, peach trees, and the more centaur-like ones are, say, birch. I use these simply for example, not necessarily for suggestion.

I would also like to add this input, which may cause a stir, but we'll see. It has been my experience in Narnia RPing that when one uses fanfiction to establish a history, players often try to follow the plot of the fanfiction. A fanfiction is all fine and well, but it is /not/ an RP. RP is about making a story together, and that goal is frustrated by the attempt to follow an established plot; it is also frustrating for the person trying to follow the plot because most others /aren't/ trying to do this. This is not to say that fanfiction should not be used at all. Clearly we have used some of Copperfox's ideas already. But the danger is present and I think it would be wise to keep it in mind when establishing canon.

[Copperfox]

Simetra's remarks are good overall. The input of my fanfic novel is a matter of filling in the blanks of prior history, setting up the reason why Talking Tigers are doing what they're doing; it is no serious threat of contamination to the imagined "present" situation inside Narnia.

[Copperfox]

When Mr. Lewis made up the character of the Hermit of Archenland, he failed to tell us how old the Hermit was; he also failed to tell us whether the Hermit seen in "Horse/Boy" was unique, or whether there was a succession of Hermits all through Archenland's history. This is one of Mr. Lewis' more frustrating omissions.

But for purposes of the "Snow" roleplay, consistency calls for the Mods to decide this point. Because if THE Hermit, or ANY Hermit, is alive and active at the time of this roleplay, then it is not possible that he would be unaware of, or indifferent to, what's going on in his own country's capital. With the traitor Arlis doing everything in his power to help Jadis, for the Hermit not to intervene in some way would be as if Gandalf in "Two Towers" had not cared a bit about what Wormtongue was doing to help destroy Rohan.

[Inkling]

Regarding the Great Woods Situation: 'K. Let's just think this out logically. A group of birds is stunned mid-flight. What would reasonably be expected to happen to them? Hint: They do not get special hag-finding abilities.

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

That's right. Being unable to flap their wings, they would fall to the ground and have broken necks as their main problem.

Can't C-spine them...there are no Narnian EMTs.

You have one hag down to be dealt with however you like. The other hags are not only tough but magical, meaning that they can use magic to heal. Plus, they're deep in the bracken. I'm sorry, but you don't always win, and I feel like I'm being more than fair. I basically left the others alone. You lose Marius and take down a hag.

[Copperfox]

~ ~ I didn't claim that the birds FOUND Marius, only that they resumed trying. I realized all along that you were intent on the Centaur being taken (remember my saying that I didn't mind the Dwarfs dying?), but it would be un-Narnian of his friends to give up easily. And the very same thick foliage which helps the Hags, should have prevented the birds from breaking their necks.

~ ~ As it is, the Dwarfs and the Faun who joined them leave that one less-fortunate Hag a mutilated and lifeless mess, then take off and cease to be part of the onstage action (reducing the crowding of NPC's).

[Inkling]

Even conceding that they survive the fall, they are not likely to be in good shape. Even when the magic wears off, it'll take a while to . I am willing to work with you to make it fair.

Thank you for your offer as far as the dwarfs go. I will be content with a /realistic/ outcome.