Getting to know Aslan

[MrBob]

Aslan told Lucy and Edmund that they were getting too old to be in Narnia and had to get to know him better in their world. There are two totally differennt aspects about this that I would like to discuss.

1) Is that what Susan and Peter are told? In truth, we are never told what the conversation was between them and Aslan before they went home. All we know is that they are too old to be in Narnia. After that, Peter tells his siblings "It's all rather different than I thought. You'll unerstand when it comes to your last time."

If they were given the same discussion as Lucy and Edmund, why would Peter say that it was different than what he thought? How could Susan go so errant in her ways after being told this? I don't know, I guess it is just a random thought. We will never know what they were told or in what way they were told.

2) The Pevensies grew up in a "normal" English home. However, Eustace and Jill apparently grew up without a religious background (they didn't even understand the signifcance of Adam and Eve). Aslan, however, never get to tell them to get to know him better in their world. Weren't they the ones who were most in need of getting to know Aslan? They were the most ignorant of him on Earth.

Just to random thoughts. Suggested answers are welcome.

MrBob

[Animus Wyrmis]

Is that what Susan and Peter are told?

Maybe? I think that it depends on what exactly Aslan was referencing when he says Lucy and Edmund were brought into Narnia to get to know him better. If he's referencing all their adventures, then Peter and Susan probably got the same talk--but if he specifically means the voyage on the Dawn Treader (which is so weird in that there's no conflict they have to solve--it's just a cool adventure), then Peter and Susan might well have been told something different (time to live in their own world? Narnia doesn't need them anymore? You've done well, so go take a break?). I guess then the voyage would have been a special treat for the younger two, who are closer to Aslan anyway--Edmund because Aslan saved him and Lucy for obvious reasons.

How could Susan go so errant in her ways after being told this?

Actually, I've wondered about this. General fan conjecture (supported by one of Lewis's letters) is that "nylons and lipstick" --> material world --> "Narnia is just a game!" --> disbelief/forgetfulness/denial/anger/whatever towards Aslan --> also to Jesus. But in the books themselves we aren't actually *told* this. Peter says she's no longer a friend to Narnia, which means either that she doesn't believe/remember or that she doesn't want to talk about it, and Jill rounds in with the nylons/lipstick comment, and then Polly on growing up. But we don't know how well, I guess, these two know Susan--if Susan met them post SC, she may well have already stopped talking about Narnia and they would have heard of her through her refusal to talk about it and seen her quite possibly dashing in and out of the house ("Oh, can't stop to talk! Must go!"), which could very well mean that Susan is less ridiculous than they believe. (Lewis calls her "silly and conceited", IIRC, which isn't a glowing commendation but doesn't condemn her entirely either.) It's entirely possible that she did in fact figure out the connection, and took "live in your own world and know me there" too much to heart, so to speak.

I know fans generally take Narnia, Aslan, and her eventual place in Heaven as all connected (I totally do this, and how many fics have you read where the climax is Susan remembering--with the implication that with that will come all the religious conviction she needs--or going to church--with the implication that she'll remember?), but I'm not entirely sure how necessary that is. And Lewis did have Emeth get into Aslan's Country, so who knows what Susan needs to remember or believe in Lewis's theology.

The Pevensies grew up in a "normal" English home. However, Eustace and Jill apparently grew up without a religious background (they didn't even understand the signifcance of Adam and Eve). Aslan, however, never get to tell them to get to know him better in their world. Weren't they the ones who were most in need of getting to know Aslan? They were the most ignorant of him on Earth.

I still don't understand how four British children raised in an apparently Christian family and sent to normal British schools didn't pick up on Aslan and had to be told! But I also wonder--the others (excepting Polly and Digory, actually) were told they weren't coming back, whereas Eustace and Jill were never told that. Was Aslan saving that conversation for later (only not, because they die)?

And for that matter--*do* they need to know Aslan as Jesus, and if so--why, and what for? I mean, we're still talking about the same being, aren't we? Would Aslan be like, "Oh, wait, you never figured out I was Jesus, Lucy! No Heaven for you!"? And if so--when would her time have run out? (I mean, pretending for a moment she lived longer.) Ten years? Twenty? Was it a theological necessity or a comfort to them (that is, did Aslan want them to know he was Jesus so they could be saved, so to speak, or did he want them to know because he knew it would make the transition back to England easier for them?)? [I am working from memory on that scene in VotDT; please forgive me if I totally missed something.] Or was it simply that, as Lucy was Lucy Pevensie in England in not Queen Lucy and people were healed with doctors and medication rather than magic cordials, Jesus was the Son of God, not Aslan, and then it would be like--like sinking fully back into their own world?

MrBob, these are really interesting questions! Thanks for posting them. :D

[EveningStar]

Being in Narnia like they did changed them permanently as people. It changed their perspectives, their sense of values.

Perhaps this is similar to the way when people have near death experiences. They talk about how wonderful it was to go into the light and be at peace, yet when they return they don't run to commit suicide to get back there. They appreciate life more fully, spend more time with family and friends and less in the office. And they don't fear eventual death when it comes.

Perhaps there is a quote that somewhat parallels "Once a King or Queen of Narnia, always a King of Queen of Narnia." It comes at the end of Casablanca when Rick is about to part from his beloved Ilsa. "We'll always have Paris." She thought her husband was dead, but he was found in a concentration camp. She had found love again but had to give it up because her noble husband needed her. But, very importantly, Rick and Ilsa would ALWAYS have Paris? How so? Because it had become a part of her.

[~Lava~]

I will make one point before answering the questions to the best of my ability. We are never told that Jill grew up in a "non-normal" house or that she never was taught Judeo-Christian values at home. We are just told that she grew up going to a bad school, but one that was so bad that if she had told her parents they probably would never have believed her. Also, Lucy did not understand the Sons/Daughters of Adam and Eve stuff either. Jill, being in constant contact with Eustace, was very likely to hear the whole story of his first trip to Narnia which would include Aslan's parting injunction to his cousins.

Questions in the first/second paragraphs: Whether or not Peter and Susan are told exactly the same thing, I feel that it was probably similar and being so Peter said that it was different from what he thought because he was told that Aslan was Jesus. As for Susan, we can picture it better this way: those of us who are Christian have a very hard time understanding how a person who had such a powerful experience with their faith (like at a conference) could ever go back to the way things were or even reject what they had before for something else, yet I have had personal experience where a friend was completely on fire for Christ and has completely changed course since he left High School. I don't understand it but it happens more often than we even know.

Questions in the Third Paragraph: Eustace did not need it again because he was present during the talk given by Aslan to the younger two Pevensies. Another thing was that Aslan was not done sending them to Narnia, Silver Chair was not their last time. Aslan gave them and even better choice than any of the Pevensies got, he allowed them to chose whether they wanted to live in another part of the Narnian world while the final Battle was happening or if they wanted to go to certain death to defend Aslan's name. He gave them the choice of Martyrdom. By choosing Martyrdom, they showed that they didn't need to get to know Jesus better in their world. Perhaps, it is because they never knew Jesus in their own world that this was Aslan's choice for them or it could be that Aslan was counting on His faithful little Lucy to make this known to them.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

It seems to me futile to attempt to pick apart what the various visitors to Narnia "learned" from their time there, and how it equated to what they "knew" in their native world - if you're going to consider solely their knowledge in terms of what was explained to them in some allegorical or analogical sense. Neither Aslan nor anyone else ever sat them down to explain, "Now, Aslan is the Innocent Victim, like Jesus was, and the Stone Table is like the Cross, where judgment was meted out, and the Deeper Magic equates to the Resurrection Power which was exhibited on Easter morning..."

That isn't the type of "knowing" in which the visitors to Narnia grew. It wasn't what they came to know, it was Who - they matured in their relationship with Aslan Himself. Remember when Lucy met Him in the woods in Caspian and noticed that He was larger? He said, "That is because you are older." It was knowledge of He Himself that was the important thing, and even that wasn't abstract, detached knowledge about Him, but relational knowledge of Him - i.e. friendship. Also remember what He said to Edmund and Lucy at the end of Dawn Treader - "This was the very reason why you were brought to Narnia, that by knowing me here for a little, you may know me better there." (emphasis added)

Since we moderns all have a little Joe Friday in us ("Just the facts, ma'am"), we want to jump to the sort of things that can be transmitted by books or in classrooms. We want to know what Aslan or someone else told the visitors. But even if they learned no facts, they came to know Aslan, and that's the most important knowledge there is.

[Animus Wyrmis]

Totally random thought, but if Aslan had told Peter and Susan that he was in England too, wouldn't they have told their brother and sister? Edmund and Lucy must have been devastated and guilty over the news, especially because their siblings had lost Narnia and Aslan (and they were exiled from it/him, for the moment)--shouldn't their siblings have said something? And if you're going to run around seeking Aslan out in England, Lucy is probably the best person to find him with.

Only then, their conversation with Aslan in VotDT would have been radically different, because Lucy and Edmund would already have known that losing Narnia didn't mean losing Aslan.

Only now I'm totally confused as to why Aslan would only bother to mention it to three of them...

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Remember that the topics of their private conversations with Aslan were not generally discussed among themselves or with anyone else.

[EveningStar]

This touches on the difference between religion and faith. Religion is a series of organized beliefs about faith. Aslan did not structure the faith experiences the Pevensies, Jill and Eustace had in Narnia, but by affecting their pillars of faith, he also affected the religion that rested atop them.

[someone else]

Not that I'm that familiar with it, and being new here and all, but here's my tuppence worth.
I'd like to comment, but it seems to me that without defining what Narnia is and is not then how can you ask what it was that they were leaving?
I guess that you all have your own ideas of what Narnia is and have probably discussed it before, so I can only comment from my limited point of view, which is...

Narnia is that wee time which from time to time in our lives we get to spend in the “heavenly places” mentioned in the book of Ephesians, when we walk in the knowledge and presence of our Lord day by day, feeling also really close to him. Simply rejoicing and praising all day long. It’s His gift to us – for a wee while He lets us into the Kingdom (within) before we’re once again sent out into the world, back to our families and our monotonous daily lives and seek him there.

We may get given this gift once or may be blessed with it many times, and in the end we’ll rweach there again – in fact not just Narnia, but we’ll be taken to Aslan’s country, far across the sea and into the highest of heights.

Looking at it this way, that’d be why Peter says “you’ll understand when it comes to your last time” in other words by then you’ll be (or should know that you are) well equipped to come back into this world with its sufferings, sorrows and daily ?drudge???
Also that’s why Susan errs, because she lets herself forget, lets herself get caught up in the cares of this world.

As for Eustace an Jill being more ignorant – being brought up with ‘religion’ can be harder than being ignorant and being ignorant perhaps brings a greater revelation (no pre conceived ideas) when our eyes are at last opened.

[MrBob]

OK, first I just added that Susan question almost rhetorically. I understand the concept of losing one's faith, although to have such a great faith and turn from that seems a bit unusual.

"I will make one point before answering the questions to the best of my ability. We are never told that Jill grew up in a "non-normal" house or that she never was taught Judeo-Christian values at home."

Lava, we know that Eustace swore by "everything" instead, as Lewis mentioned in his commentary within the book, "swear by the bible" as Experiment House strongly discouraged Bibles. It is also mentioned that people at Experiment House hadn't heard of Adam and Eve (see the conversation with the nearly deaf Trumpkin). From that, I got the idea that Judeo-Christian religion wasn't taught, even at home, if they had no idea who Adam and Eve were. Lucy and her siblings were unfamiliar with the phrase Son of-Daugher of Adam and Eve. They knew who Adam and Eve were, but were stymied on the first part.

"Whether or not Peter and Susan are told exactly the same thing, I feel that it was probably similar and being so Peter said that it was different from what he thought because he was told that Aslan was Jesus."

I doubt Aslan was that specific. He wasn't for Lucy and Edmund. My issue is why Peter was so surprised and what he thought everything was about.

"Aslan gave them and even better choice than any of the Pevensies got, he allowed them to chose whether they wanted to live in another part of the Narnian world while the final Battle was happening or if they wanted to go to certain death to defend Aslan's name."

Explain that one, Lava. I don't recall Jill and Eustace having a choice in the matter, especially not Aslan giving them any kind of choice. Using the logic I am sensing from you, the Pevensies had a choice whether to try to find their way back or follow or Beaver to his den. They had a choice whether to help Caspian or stay safe.

"Totally random thought, but if Aslan had told Peter and Susan that he was in England too, wouldn't they have told their brother and sister?"

Animus, I'm with PotW on this one. They understood the difference between experiences and personal conversations with Aslan. Peter and Susan would never have told their siblings while Edmund and Lucy would never have dreamed to ask.

Heck, even Susan and Lucy debated whether to tell Edmund about what Aslan did for him in LWW. If that fact was debatable, then personal conversations with Aslan would be off-limits.

MrBob

[Animus Wyrmis]

Animus, I'm with PotW on this one. They understood the difference between experiences and personal conversations with Aslan. Peter and Susan would never have told their siblings while Edmund and Lucy would never have dreamed to ask.

Heck, even Susan and Lucy debated whether to tell Edmund about what Aslan did for him in LWW. If that fact was debatable, then personal conversations with Aslan would be off-limits.

Hmm...you two may be right on this. I was thinking more along the lines of comforting Lucy post-PC, and less about whether or not they might view it is a private thing ("If he wanted them to know, he'd have told them himself" type thing). That's a good point, PotW.