Anti - Lewises and why

[whitelion_bella]

kinda related to the thread "haters" in the lion the witch and the wardrobe, but only focuses not on hatred of some people toward 'Narnia' but of hatred of some people towards Narnia author, C.S Lewis.

please tell me guys, why do some people hate/dislike C.S Lewis? i've been trying to find answers from here and from around the internet, but i can't have a conclusive answer to why. even his dear friend, JRR Tolkien criticizes him so much, Lewis had second thoughts of writing CON. Lewis is a great and talented author, yet, why do some people downgrade him? i really had a fever when i read reviews over the internet of how Lewis is such a bad author and such :mad:

[Ephinie]

J.R.R Tolkien's works are very different from Lewis's, and it's possible he criticized him simply because he truly thought Narnia was a bad idea. Keep in Mind, only The Hobbit was marketed to children out of Tolkien's big fantasy works; and THAT was considerably darker than the Narnia series. I think it is an issue of personal taste there, and of course Tolkien would want to speak honestly and truly to his friend about what he thought. Think of how detailed and meticulous Tolkien was when creating his world. No doubt all the little inconsistencies that we find in Lewis's work would have driven poor Tolkien up the wall!

Thus, I think it probable that some people's dislike of Lewis today is the same - a difference in taste about what they like and don't like.

HOWEVER - I'd wager that the majority of people who dislike Narnia nowadays have less valid reasons. These reasons could be any of a number, such as:
1. They either do not or cannot appreciate the richness of the stories.
2. They disagree with the values in the stories.
3. They don't understand the values.
4. They resent the traditional roles portrayed and the Christian messages in the books.
5. They don't understand the traditional role and Christian messages, so they write it off as being in the same group as Harry Potter or other fantasy works. (this last one is aimed specifically at Christians who don't like Lewis).
6. And finally, they saw the movies first and decided there wasn't any point in reading the books, because they couldn't possibly be that good.

Most people are not going to be reading Lewis's non-fiction works if they haven't picked up either Narnia or the space trilogy first and decided they liked them. This is really sad, because Lewis has a lot of good things to say in his non-fiction. Narnia is often the only books people think of when they hear his name, particularly in Christian circles. Some adults may read them for the first time and just not appreciate them. Honestly, though, when I hear other Christians say they don't like C.S. Lewis or they don't think Narnia is worth taking time out of their schedule to read, it hurts my heart.

[Copperfox]

Jesus told Nicodemus that those who do evil hate the light. That accounts, in a condensed way, for scoundrels like Phillip Pullman who hate Mr. Lewis. Occultists hate Mr. Lewis for depicting witches as bad. Extreme feminists hate him for NOT portraying every woman as able to break apart five-ton granite blocks with her baby finger. People obsessed with sex hate him for downplaying sexuality.

[Sven-El]

Jesus told Nicodemus that those who do evil hate the light. That accounts, in a condensed way, for scoundrels like Phillip Pullman who hate Mr. Lewis. Occultists hate Mr. Lewis for depicting witches as bad. Extreme feminists hate him for NOT portraying every woman as able to break apart five-ton granite blocks with her baby finger. People obsessed with sex hate him for downplaying sexuality.

On the note of the Feminists, Copperfox, I always find it funny how the object to the roles of the women in Narnia, when compared to Tolkien, Lewis had much more prominant females in his books with very distinct personalities. Actually one time at school, I was looking through the resource materials and they ahd a book that listed various childrens books that had postive female role models for young girls and Narnia was listed. Certainly, I'd rather my future daughters behaved more like Lucy, Polly or Jill and not like any one on Gossip Girl.



HOWEVER - I'd wager that the majority of people who dislike Narnia nowadays have less valid reasons. These reasons could be any of a number, such as:
5. They don't understand the traditional role and Christian messages, so they write it off as being in the same group as Harry Potter or other fantasy works. (this last one is aimed specifically at Christians who don't like Lewis).



That certianly is one of the reasons that Christians do object to Narnia, and likewise Lord of the Rings. I have read some Christian critics who do decry the magic in Narnia, as well as the use of Pagan deities like Bacchus ( which probably explains his apsnese from the PC film).

Another reason, and this I learned this at a Christian Writers confrence this year, is that it is very hard to market fantasy to a Christian aduiecne for the sole reasons that they use magic and have "too much imagination" and aren't "realistic". The average Christian reader ( based on their makreting reserach) tends to be a married mother, who just neds a good holesome read, that isnt' too "weird". If there's any market for thrillers it is mostly in end times ( fiction by Ted Dekker, Randy Alcorn, and Frank Peretti is sometimes "too dark adn disturbign" for Christian readers and often times thrown out of Christian book stores) This leaves Fantasy having to be either makreted as an Allegory ( which would make Tolkien cringe) or as " childrens fiction" ( classic literature itself is marketed as a "Home School Resoruce"). This leads to thd extrem of Christian adults deciding that such books are not worth their time as they are meant for kids.

[Copperfox]

Yes, the suppression of Christian fantasy is much like the former suppression of Christian rock music. I know, having been an artist in both suppressed areas.

[Darth Sparhawk]

Copperfox has said it very well. Nothing to add.

[inkspot]

Yah, one reason I believe critics today dis Lewis is that they do not like his faith, and they do not like his fantasy works reinforcing the reality/goodness of the faith.

When LWW movie was coming out, and Pullman was being as snotty as he can be, I read one article trying to make people think CSL was weird and a pervert because he had taken in the old mother of his war buddy who didn't survive WWII. The article made light one of those "earnest battle field promises" each made to the other to look after his mother if he didn't survive. They tried to make Lewis' faithfulness to his promise into something smarmy and perverse. The only reason I can see for anyone to do that is to make people think there is no goodness, that for all CON tries to make children believe in absolute goodness, really the author was batty at best or a pervert at worst. It's a sick, sick thing to say about CSL or anyone, really. :(

[Into the Wardrobe]

kinda related to the thread "haters" in the lion the witch and the wardrobe, but only focuses not on hatred of some people toward 'Narnia' but of hatred of some people towards Narnia author, C.S Lewis.

please tell me guys, why do some people hate/dislike C.S Lewis? i've been trying to find answers from here and from around the internet, but i can't have a conclusive answer to why. even his dear friend, JRR Tolkien criticizes him so much, Lewis had second thoughts of writing CON. Lewis is a great and talented author, yet, why do some people downgrade him? i really had a fever when i read reviews over the internet of how Lewis is such a bad author and such :mad:

The Inklings used to be fairly brutal in tearing one another's works to bits verbally. Yet they still remained friends and didn't let that impact their friendship. Tolkien thought that Narnia had too many different creatures from various mythologies in it. He worked to create Middle Earth as something that fit together as a whole other land and world. He thought that Lewis' work was sloppy since so many elements were thrown in together. But, they were writing and creating for different reasons. What mattered to Tolkien didn't necessarily matter to Jack. I'm glad Jack proceeded with Narnia. They still remained friends in spite of this.

As for today, I think that the moral compass of this generation is almost at a stand still. It's so broken. They crave everything that is not family friendly and search for what is inappropriate. It would be unlikely for so many to love the Chronicles of Narnia because there are so many morals and good examples contained in them. In those stories, evil characters are written as evil. The White Witch, hag, and wherewolf are not written as misunderstood characters to be redeemed later. Evil is portrayed for what it is. It's not something to be flirted with without dire consequences to follow. It's a story with a realistic, sort of happy ending, that shows that life isn't always fair.

People are taught these days in school to make things turn out as fair as possible...then they read about the Pevensies not being able to return because they're too old, and they are horrified. They don't realize that what Jack wrote is close to life in the adult world where we don't always get what we want; and fair is something hoped for but not always seen. It wasn't fair for the Narnian Lord to jump in the water and turn to gold. It wasn't fair for Roupe to be left on Dark Island for so long, it wasn't fair that Miraz took over and hurt the Narnians, and it wasn't fair that Shasta had to grow up away from his real family....one would think by the end of the series they'd be used to unfairness to the point where the lost Pevensie might not feel so out of place. Too many kids grow up on Disney movies with the problems resolved and a happy ever after with no problems later. With that sort of mentality, reality starts to appear like the Underworld does to Glumpuddle, Jill, and Eustace. I think that the world was blessed to have a writer like Lewis. He made things tough but hopeful for his characters. He showed how there was hope and good parts to life in spite of unfair circumstances.

Ephinie has a great list of why people hate Lewis. They don't understand. It's their loss.

[EveningStar]

Children need to understand how there is unfairness out in the big world so they know they're not the only ones suffering from it.

Look at Bambi. When it first came out as a film, people accused Disney of frightening kids. He replied that children need to deal with the dark questions they ponder, and they need to see that even when the unthinkable happens it is still possible to persevere and make a life for oneself.

[Copperfox]

Even the Shirley Temple movies, remembered as pure fluff, actually had "hard" elements in them. The characters Shirley played often had to endure great adversity, including in some films the death of one or both parents. Although there was always at least one kindhearted adult to come to her rescue, Shirley gave young viewers someone to identify with when it came to facing the unfair things of life.

[Sven-El]

And yet here is an irony when it comes to people hating Narnia for it's theems and messages and lewis' beliefs. Lewis himself enjoyed the books of HG Wells, and even Orwell's Animal Farm even though he may have disagreed with their personal beliefs and simply appreciated them as stories. He even wrote in Out of the Silent Planet that he was indepted to the stories of HG Wells. ( though OTSP is more similar to Burrougsh Barsoom stories and Bradbury's Martian Chronciles.) Cirtics like Pullman and others just want to tear it all down with out appreciate what came before. Oddly, even JK Rowling has admitted to liking Narnia and being influenced by it.

Why can't people appreciate the forest inspite of a few trees?

[BarbarianKing]

Even the Shirley Temple movies, remembered as pure fluff, actually had "hard" elements in them. The characters Shirley played often had to endure great adversity, including in some films the death of one or both parents. Although there was always at least one kindhearted adult to come to her rescue, Shirley gave young viewers someone to identify with when it came to facing the unfair things of life.

And I don't want to be left out of the good ship Lollipop.:D

[whitelion_bella]

When LWW movie was coming out, and Pullman was being as snotty as he can be, I read one article trying to make people think CSL was weird and a pervert because he had taken in the old mother of his war buddy who didn't survive WWII. The article made light one of those "earnest battle field promises" each made to the other to look after his mother if he didn't survive. :(


...did Pullman wrote THAT article?! :eek::mad:

by the way, the thing i find most intriguing is, since Phillip Pullman wrote his dark materials and everyone knows that this series literally attacks christianity and religion in a rather disturbing way, Pullman was awarded something (some sort of an award) by the archbishop (or is it archdiocese?) of London. why does the London church do that? (correct me about this because i am not sure but i read something like this in TIME magazine) instead of excommunicating him or something, why do they give him some sort of award?

[Sven-El]

...did Pullman wrote THAT article?! :eek::mad:

by the way, the thing i find most intriguing is, since Phillip Pullman wrote his dark materials and everyone knows that this series literally attacks christianity and religion in a rather disturbing way, Pullman was awarded something (some sort of an award) by the archbishop (or is it archdiocese?) of London. why does the London church do that? (correct me about this because i am not sure but i read something like this in TIME magazine) instead of excommunicating him or something, why do they give him some sort of award?

It would be archbisop, an archdiocese is simply the office itse'f which incldues an archbishop. And to be excommunicated ( kicked out from the church) one would have to be a member first, and Mr. Pullman is undoubetly NOT a member of the Angelican Church. His award would have been a CBE ( a knighthood, JRR Tollkien and Steven Spielberg have recevied such accolades. Lewis was offered a knighthood but turend it down as he was Irish.) which are given by the archbisop.

Any rate to address the matters of Tolkiens disaproval of Narnia as mentioned in earlier posts, it had a lot to do with Tolkien not liking that lewis melded things from so many different mythologeis, in particular that Father Christams and Bachus showed up in a secondary world. He simply wanted his friend to do better. Tolkien also ahd a bit of "profesional jealosy" if you will .Lewis was able to find a publisher for Narnia where as it took Tolkien a long time (and lots of rejection) to get LOTR published.

[Copperfox]

Tolkien just had a blind spot. Narnia DOES have its own internal logic, because the point IS that Aslan created the place for the benefit of humans. Being God, and foreknowing the arrival of humans, Aslan populated the Narnian world with beings whose presence would be meaningful TO humans. If I manage a Renaissance festival, and have actors there portraying historical persons from a 600-year time-range, it is NOT because I don't know history, it's because I want my customers to enjoy imagining that they meet persons of multiple eras.

[Sven-El]

Tolkien just had a blind spot. Narnia DOES have its own internal logic, because the point IS that Aslan created the place for the benefit of humans. Being God, and foreknowing the arrival of humans, Aslan populated the Narnian world with beings whose presence would be meaningful TO humans. If I manage a Renaissance festival, and have actors there portraying historical persons from a 600-year time-range, it is NOT because I don't know history, it's because I want my customers to enjoy imagining that they meet persons of multiple eras.

True. Plus strait forward history in the sense at a Renaissance festival would be boring. They can go to a museum for that.

And of course, you can't fault Tolkien for being so nit-picky. ( look at most of his work afterall.) However, I'd like to point out that I don't think it is far to lump Tolkien in though with the Anti-Lewis camp as it were. There were plans on Tolkien's part to do a time travel story that would tie in the Space Trilogy by Lewis into LOTR, so he did think highly at least of that series.

Plus Lewis did share his work with him at an Inklings meeting. He knew he would receive criticism. That was part of the point.

[SongsofLife]

As for today, I think that the moral compass of this generation is almost at a stand still. It's so broken. They crave everything that is not family friendly and search for what is inappropriate. It would be unlikely for so many to love the Chronicles of Narnia because there are so many morals and good examples contained in them. In those stories, evil characters are written as evil. The White Witch, hag, and wherewolf are not written as misunderstood characters to be redeemed later. Evil is portrayed for what it is. It's not something to be flirted with without dire consequences to follow. It's a story with a realistic, sort of happy ending, that shows that life isn't always fair.

I don't know how I've missed this thread until today. Great discussion. I've learned a lot just reading it. I agree with Into the Wardrobe -- the moral compass, not just of this generation, but for many, is broken. Lord have mercy. The truth has been so distorted. The lies are sly and pervasive and persuasive. We need artists, writers, musicians, dancers to help tell of the Light to counter act the Gossip Girls mentality, the culture of death mentality, the "rationalize it because it makes me feel better about my immoral choices" mentality.

Come Lord Jesus, enlighten our minds.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

It is a good thread. I think Tolkien's objections to Narnia were more a matter of taste, and his critiques reflect that. The comments about the stories being "a pastiche" and poorly developed are the comments of one author to another about tradecraft. Furthermore, Tolkien was an exceptionally picky writer, especially with himself (I dread to think what he'd have to say about my works!) To even consider that Tolkien was "anti" Lewis in the manner of Phillip Pullman is to totally misunderstand their interactions.

[Sven-El]

It is a good thread. I think Tolkien's objections to Narnia were more a matter of taste, and his critiques reflect that. The comments about the stories being "a pastiche" and poorly developed are the comments of one author to another about tradecraft. Furthermore, Tolkien was an exceptionally picky writer, especially with himself (I dread to think what he'd have to say about my works!) To even consider that Tolkien was "anti" Lewis in the manner of Phillip Pullman is to totally misunderstand their interactions.

Exactly. Also he was his friend, and simply wanted him to be "better". Any friend would want that.

[whitelion_bella]

thanks guys, now i finally know why Tolkien criticizes Lewis so much. at first, i thought Lewis made friends with the wrong person and i was thinking "why in the world would Lewis still stick and remain friends with that guy?"

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Another thing to keep in mind: the tenor and expression of friendship among crusty old curmudgeon dons at Oxford during that time looked quite different than we might expect. Coarse bantering, mockery, and abuse would have been typical expressions of affection and camaraderie. We might read Tolkien's statements about Lewis' works and wonder just when Lewis was going to storm out of the room, but Tolkien would have considered it merely being honest. Tolkien was ruthless toward the works of Charles Williams, at one point writing a poem thick with satire and mockery, yet at Williams' funeral he expressed to Williams' wife his deep affection for Williams and regard for his intellect and work.

[SongsofLife]

... We might read Tolkien's statements about Lewis' works and wonder just when Lewis was going to storm out of the room, but Tolkien would have considered it merely being honest.

Rather reminds me of some discussion threads here on TDL! ;) I've been impressed with -- and sometimes puzzled by -- the passion with which some opinions are expressed here. Yet underneath there seems to be a mutual respect I find refreshing and educational.

[Sven-El]

Rather reminds me of some discussion threads here on TDL! ;) I've been impressed with -- and sometimes puzzled by -- the passion with which some opinions are expressed here. Yet underneath there seems to be a mutual respect I find refreshing and educational.

Exactly. They could agree to disagree, like so many of us here do.

Or here's another example. I have this friend and he and I are pretty much like twin brothers separated at birth in terms of our relationship. Because we are so close I have no problems sharing with him some of my writing and getting feed back.

For example, I shared with him a much earlier draft of a sci-fi trilogy I am writing. He’d hear some of the dialogue or various other things and say, " What were you thinking" " That is just lame" or " "Jonathon, if I ever write a story I'm going to sue that line and have the other characters make fun of him." Other time’s he’d basically riff on it like on Mystery Science Theater 3000. Then I'd read him a newer or more improved version and he'd say "That's much better!" or " It's hard to believe that something so amazing could come have started out so lame." He even said once," Jono, that is so cliche, you can do better."

Was I hurt? No. Because of my friendship with him I expect him to give me open and honest feedback and be brutal if necessary. Is it discouraging at times? Yes, a bit, but it helps sharpen me as a writer.

[whitelion_bella]

Was I hurt? No. Because of my friendship with him I expect him to give me open and honest feedback and be brutal if necessary. Is it discouraging at times? Yes, a bit, but it helps sharpen me as a writer.

reminds me of that allegory of the three pencils; one rule of becoming a great pencil is that you have to endure painful sharpenings to be a better pencil. :)

[FunkyFawn]

Yah, one reason I believe critics today dis Lewis is that they do not like his faith, and they do not like his fantasy works reinforcing the reality/goodness of the faith.

Yup. The entire "free thinker" movement makes the false assumption that anyone with intelligence with discount religion. People like Lewis put a serious crimp in their philosophy. Lewis clearly was very intelligent, you don't teach where he taught if you are not, yet he came to Christ after his training in logic and his logic arguments are quite good.

Rather than attack the arguments, they instead attack Lewis.

Many of them are completely unaware that Tolkein was a Christian and a member of the Oxford Christians. In fact, Tolkein played a role in the conversion of Lewis.

[EveningStar]

They hate him because he was so good at doing what he did...which was disagreeing with them. It brings to mind the phrase, "Quit trying to confuse me with the facts of the case!"

[Protagonist]

There is no evidence that these critics hate your faith.

[inkspot]

There is no evidence that these critics hate your faith.
Well, Pullman for one says so, no confusion there. He's said something about he wihes he could get into every child's head and forcefully drag out any religion. So, that one I'm pretty sure about.

The other article I read, where the guy made fun of CSL for keeping his battle field promise to look after his army buddy's mother if he were killed, from the way he sneered about Lewis' integrity, I am pretty sure he has a chip on his shoulder about faith, too.

[Animus Wyrmis]

I do think there are a lot of people who really don't like his style/worldbuilding too--I keep running into these people. "It's not internally consistent!" they say. "It doesn't make sense! Explain to me how the language never changes in a thousand years. Tell me how all the other lands get populated by humans. Where does Tash come from?!"

To which I say, "Oh, pfft!" but then of course I was raised on the Oz books (which are, um, not very consistent at all) and the Narnia books. So I think there is a definite sort of...suspension of disbelief? Type thing? That a lot of people just aren't managing, which is fine--if I had come to the Narnia books with the ideas on worldbuilding I have now instead of the ones I had as a child, I don't know that I could have just gone with it. (Er. I say that. Probably I would still be like "Yay Narnia!")

Also, I think that a lot of people don't like his writing style; it's very chatty and fourth-wall breaking and in general a style I really like but that a lot of other people don't. (And it drives me crazy now that all the stories get told to the author but EVERYONE IS DEAD IN THE LAST BOOK, so please explain that one to me, Mr. Lewis! But of course that wasn't something that bothered me even five years ago.)

Also...I think there are people who feel like they're being preached at (and not just non-Christians, either; there are a lot of Christians who feel that way), and that bugs them. I don't mind it--I didn't when I believed in God and I don't now--but I suppose I can see how people could; everyone's moment at which they go "Okay, seriously, stop shoving it down my throat, I get it" is different.

And my father, at least, doesn't like Lewis because he feels that he is very low on the list of Important Christian Writers His Daughter (And Probably Other People) Should Be Reading--but then, my father doesn't much like apologists.

[inkspot]

Bah - how can anyone say Mere Christianity, for instance, should be low on the list of Christian writers to read? It's sort of foundational by my reckoning ...

[Animus Wyrmis]

Bah - how can anyone say Mere Christianity, for instance, should be low on the list of Christian writers to read? It's sort of foundational by my reckoning ...

I assume because everyone has a different set of criteria for determining how important each work/writer is? And I think people also have different ideas about which ideas and questions are most important/worthwhile/interesting/whatever. My father keeps mentioning Augustine to me (I've read the Confessions; it's City of God that he wants me to read), for instance, but I have very little patience with Augustine.