Reducing Jesus

[Copperfox]

The first time I ever got to deliver a sermon from a church pulpit (somewhere in the neighborhood of 1976), it was about the same subject I now am turning into a forum thread. Numerous persons in society want to be able somehow to retain the "niceness" of Jesus, while at the same time stripping Him of the divine authority that would compel us to OBEY Him in areas where we didn't feel like obeying.

I was reminded of this by seeing a professed Christian writing that Jesus was ONLY a man, but He sort of worked His way up to a higher status. This notion is closer to ancient Arianism, or the modern Jehovah's Witnesses, than it is to Biblical Christianity. What a disgrace for it to be entrenched in churches!

Who else has noticed the popular culture's attempts to make Jesus less than He is?

[HugsForReepicheep]

What about 'Santa Claus Jesus'? It doesn't turn him into an ordinary man, as it still grants him some magic powers, but Jesus becomes just a veeeery nice man who came to teach us how to be veeeery nice to each other, so we can get eeeeverything we've ever wanted as soon as possible. ¬¬

[inked]

Well, the old chesnut about him being a great moral teacher but nothing more is still very current. Mr. Lewis dealt with that pretty effectively in the Lord? Liar? or Lunatic? trilemna.

Then there's the "he was an avatar of the divine, a realized master sent back to earth" bit. Leading to this really bizarre bit of movie clip expressing the end result:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccb2GsnOoBM

An "Out on a Limb" sort of attempt to reduce Jesus to elevate the self. You know, the standard line "I am god" has been working since the Garden.

[lieke]

Inked, it's so good to see you again!! :)

This whole problem is trying to get the 'good' things out of faith, and not the 'bad' ones (i'm calling obedience in hard situations the bad ones now, because they are viewed like that a lot). I must say that i understand part of it: obeying is NOT easy (at times), and you ALWAYS fail (i don't mean that you fail with everything, but that you can NEVER do everything right, you know, sin and such). I don't understand, however, how we can still be talking about the same Jesus Christ.

[gair]

I have a lecturer who refers to Jesus as the Big J, which personally I find rather amusing, but I can quite easily see how it could be offensive.
Is this what you mean by reducing Jesus? That he can be described in a cartoon character way?

[queenaravis707]

Yes, people have reduced Jesus to the size of a pea. They believe that because he was 'human', he did everything a human did. Not so. He was God in human form. I personally, want to see Jesus more on a personal level, so I talk to Him like I'm talking to a dear friend, but with all the respect due to Him.
Has anyone seen Hamlet 2? Well, not seen, but heard? It's terrible. Absolutely terrible about what they make Jesus up to be. Jesus has gone from 'Savior' to 'stand-up comedian'.

[lieke]

I don't think so (though that could be part of it). I think CF means this (CF, please correct me if i'm wrong:)):

To christians (actually, to the whole world, but christians believe it) Jesus was both man and God. Reducing Him would be saying that he was only man (or only God). If we take away His 'Godness' that means He's just a man, and therefore He can be an example to us, a great moral teacher, but it doesn't give him any authority over us. We don't have to obey Him, He's 'just a man', He could have been wrong in some things.

And then HFR said something about 'Santa Claus Jesus', you know, the Jesus that loves you and that's all He does. He gets no controll over your life, but only when you need Him (because things go wrong, or you just need to feel more happy) He is allowed to come close. He can give you joy, blessings and all that, but when it comes to life changing things like taking away sin (which can be very painful indeed), He is not allowed anything. While there is nothing wrong with asking Jesus to be there in the great moments, and in the blessins, that's not all, everyone knows that. And the only way we can ever be completely happy is if we give Him the full controll over our lives.

[Copperfox]

EVERY post here so far has some merit. But my chief point is people thinking they're doing Jesus a favor by denying His God-nature. I don't encounter ANYBODY calling Him 100 percent God and no way human, but I encounter a lot of the reverse.

[EveningStar]

It's odd that people accept that God INVENTED sex but then don't think he can even have ONE child born by immaculate conception. They accept that God said "Let there be light" and there was light, yet they wonder if God actually CAN do something about their past due mortgage. They believe that God made the sun, moon and stars, yet they have trouble believing he actually parted the Red Sea. Hmph.

[Lord of Light]

Hmm...very good point Copper, although it probably depends largly on where one lives, etc, as to whether or not a person believes that Jesus is 100% God. Although probably a large part of what you are referring to is the notion that "Jesus came so that you could have a good life, so that you could get wealthy, be healthy, and live a happy life." Yes, I am referring to the "Health, wealth, and prosperity" idea, where if you just "believe in Jesus, you get wealthy, healthy, and prosper."

Jesus is God, as He is the Trinity, three in one. So how could He not be God?

If I am correct, in the Bible(now, I'm going to really paraphrase here) it says something along the lines of "those who fear God will be blessed", so, if one tries to say, "Jesus is not God, so I don't have to obey Him." well, they better re-think that. When it says "fear God" it basically is telling one to love, serve, and OBEY God.

[Driad54]

Jesus is fully divine, and human. The whole 3 in 1 deal.
Though this is very difficult for our feeble human minds to comprehend and understand.

[Truman]

Yes, people have reduced Jesus to the size of a pea. They believe that because he was 'human', he did everything a human did. Not so. He was God in human form. I personally, want to see Jesus more on a personal level, so I talk to Him like I'm talking to a dear friend, but with all the respect due to Him.

Ah, I'm gonna have to disagree. Driad's right. He's 100% God and 100% man. I mean, you think "Oh yeah, He performed all these miracles and there's no doubt He's God because of the prophecy..." yeah yeah. We know He's God, but he was also fully man as well. He wept, suffered, and even asked God, the Father if there was a way out of His crucifixion. I mean, it's not like He wasn't experiencing any pain because He was just God in human form. He wasn't just that, He was also human.

But yeah, I agree the public churches of today are really downsizing JC. Pretty sad to see. :(

[Copperfox]

By the way, Jesus is not ALL THREE Persons of the Trinity all by Himself. It's the Father Who is the Father, and it's the Holy Spirit Who is the Holy Spirit. The "Jesus Only" heresy is a heresy, just as surely as Arianism is a heresy.

[EveningStar]

The problem with humans is that they expect God to be some sort of copy of themselves, only bigger. For instance Zeus had a wife and cheated on her several times. Baldur was slain with a spear.

Without expressing or implying that God is a computer of any sort, the structure of his mind is such that he can do TYPES of thinking we can't. As sophisticated as the human mind is, we can't carry on two separate conversations absolutely simultaneously. We can talk to two people at once by switching attention, but we can't pay full attention to--and consider--both conversations AT ONCE. Imagine doing it with four people. My computer can, because it's a quad core. So even though my computer is far less sophisticated than the human brain, it can do something I can't...which is four simultaneous threads of execution. Now imagine trying to be a mini-God yourself. Except your universe only has four people in it. Could you simultaneously ponder and process four simultaneous prayers to you for guidance? My computer could, and it's nothing like as complex as my mind...because it is DIFFERENT. God is also different.

God is infinite, which means that the share of his attention for each person on Earth would also be infinite. That makes God unique in the way he thinks, because thinking about things does not push aside other things. We can't even imagine what that would feel like. So when we talk about a personal relationship with God, it literally is, because we get as much of his attention as we could expect if we were the only human on earth.

As long as people try to manufacture a god out of an old man in a toga with magical powers, they will never understand that God is a different TYPE of person with different capabilities than any life form we've experienced on earth. And so they will try to imagine themselves having a three in one trinity or listening to a half million prayers or being aware of the sins of a 12 year old boy named Apu in Calcutta on a Wednesday, and they will shake their heads and say "Impossible!"

Ditch the old man in the toga. Meet God, the blessed and only ruler, the king of kings and lord of lords.

[shortangel]

here's a little recomendation the book entitled know what you believe has a chapter on who Jesus is, i agree with everything said in here people are nervous when the name of Jesus is mentioned in public nowadays, there's also an article entitled who is Jesus in the users guide to the bible you can find it at used bookstores

[queenaravis707]

Ah, I'm gonna have to disagree. Driad's right. He's 100% God and 100% man. I mean, you think "Oh yeah, He performed all these miracles and there's no doubt He's God because of the prophecy..." yeah yeah. We know He's God, but he was also fully man as well. He wept, suffered, and even asked God, the Father if there was a way out of His crucifixion. I mean, it's not like He wasn't experiencing any pain because He was just God in human form. He wasn't just that, He was also human.

But yeah, I agree the public churches of today are really downsizing JC. Pretty sad to see. :(

Yes, I do think he was 100% God and 100% human... kinda came out wrong, sorry. :o
I've always believed that we can't fit God into our minds because since God was the creator of 'logic', he defies it. If He were contained in logic, He wouldn't be God, would He? And if He was limited to acting to our human ways, it would make us equal to Him, therefore, we could be God ourselves. I don't understand how people want a god that acted like them. I, personally, want a God that proves to be powerful than everything. And my God is. :D

[PrinceOfTheWest]

One thing to keep in mind about Jesus: because He was 100% human and 100% divine, that means He had two complete natures, and two complete wills. His divine will, that of God the Son, was in perfect harmony and obedience to the Father. His human will that came from His human nature was what had to be perfectly submitted. That's why Scripture speaks of Jesus as the New Adam - He came to succeed where the Old Adam failed. That's why He struggled, was hungry, and had to work to submit His will in Gethsemane - it wasn't that His divine will was wavering, it was that His human will recoiled from the agony ahead (who wouldn't?) But He submitted that will perfectly, completing the mission, and opening the way for our human natures to be obedient and, ultimately, glorified.

[TimmyofOz]

My ex-wife had a "Santa Claus Jesus" belief. In fact she really believed in Santa Claus even at 38 years old. I don't understand how it work in her bi-polar brain.

She loves taking about Jesus and being a good Christian, but she doesn't go to church much and it has no real effect on her life. She couldn't pray herself if her life depended on it.

It took me a while before I came to the conclusion she wasn't really a Christian. She is a Christian because she is an American. Who is to say but God if I will see her in God' Kingdom.

[Truman]

Well, the Bible says that a true Christian can be easily shown by "the fruit" that the person yields as a growing believer. Basically: what you've done for Jesus. Now, there are many who have done nothing for Jesus, and yet they call themselves Christian; but are they really?

Timmy, you've got a good point on "Who is to say but God..." but I still think God has clearly pointed out what to expect in a Christian. If a person isn't doing or hasn't done anything at all for Christ (and in Christ's name), then I think we'll be able to tell the real Christians from the fakes. ;)

[Protagonist]

http://yoism.reality-movement.org/images/Penn&Teller/JesusToast.JPG
Jesus is a piece of toast.

[Copperfox]

Piece of toast? Actually, that's more correct than you think--for Jesus is the Bread of Life; and as such, He has quite a bit more to offer than shallow, empty wisecracks.

[Truman]

Man Copper, you have a witty retort for everything, don't you? :rolleyes:

[Copperfox]

Thank you, Truman. To the extent that your compliment is true, it's my compensation, in middle age, for youthful years in which I would often imagine the perfect reply to something--only AFTER it was too late to use it.

[inkspot]

Well, the Bible says that a true Christian can be easily shown by "the fruit" that the person yields as a growing believer. Basically: what you've done for Jesus. Now, there are many who have done nothing for Jesus, and yet they call themselves Christian; but are they really?

Timmy, you've got a good point on "Who is to say but God..." but I still think God has clearly pointed out what to expect in a Christian. If a person isn't doing or hasn't done anything at all for Christ (and in Christ's name), then I think we'll be able to tell the real Christians from the fakes. ;)

It's not our business to decide who is faking it. Have you read Mere Christianity? Lewis points out the difference between a Christian like me who was born into a Christian home and raised in an intact family and accepted Christ at an early age and have 30 years experience in following Him and some other woman of my age who was raised by wolves, abused by men, and had to fight for everything her whole life who came to Christ last year. For me, it may (it should!) be easy to present a nice loving Christian front to the world -- for her, it may be the deepest struggle just not to kick the cat. And when she, out of her love and gratitude to Christ, resists kicking the cat, Jesus is smiling on her, saying, "You go, girl! You can do it!" Everything else in her life may be a complete mess, but she is on the right path. She has called on the name of the Lord, and she is saved. Who am I to come along and look at her dirty life and say, "Yah, she says she's a Christian, but look at the way she lives"? She never had the advantages I had. I have a lot to learn if that's my attitude. She may be a lot closer to Christ than I am if I've set myself up to judge her. :(

[Truman]

I didn't mean judging. I just meant your being able to tell about someone. Sure, they might not have been able (but how though) to get anything done, but I believe, for most cases, you can tell. You don't have to judge anyone, I'm just saying you'll be able to know in your own mind.

She may be a greater Christian than you, true, but if she was, wouldn't she act as so? Why the disguise?

[Copperfox]

There has to have been SOME meaning to Jesus saying, "By their fruits you shall KNOW them."

[Lord of Light]

She may be a greater Christian than you, true, but if she was, wouldn't she act as so? Why the disguise?

Its quite often something that I find rather amusing. Many times, a person can be a very strong Christian, (i.e. great faith) and spiritually they are like a warrior. But emotionally, they may be like a child, teenager, etc. I've met a few people who are emotionally like a child, and have the faith of a teenager. But one thing that is often done is assuming that age determines both maturity and spiritual maturity. I know this is not true, as I have a youth pastor who is only 26, but his spiritual maturity is much greater than that. I can't put an age on it, because its not something I can tell. Only God could figure that out.

There are also those that physically appear older than they are...I'm a pretty good example, since everyone thinks I'm 19 or 20, when in actuality I'm only 16...well, almost 17, but that's besides the point.:D

And many times, one doesn't even realize that others can or can't tell something about them. Its a little confusing, but rather amusing...why'd I rhyme?:confused::eek: Ah well...

[Copperfox]

There was something of that in my darling Janalee. The brain damage from her car-crash injuries affected her emotional control, so that in some elements of personality she was like a teenager; yet she still had both an adult intellect and an adult commitment to Jesus. Now of course she is a child in joyful submission to God, and at the same time a being of glory in whom no flaw exists.

[TimmyofOz]

Inkspot, I am not going to state who I am going to see in Heaven. I have often heard it said that when we get to Heaven there will be 3 surprices for us. First we will meet people that we never expected to see there, second that we will not see people that we were sure would be there, and last that we are there. Hey, I'm a hypocrite and the old man still makes me stumble. I know my works won't get me to Heaven, only Christ's blood. But I know that many who profess to be "Christians" will be turned away, because their profession was only on the outside, but Christ wasn't in their heart.

[Copperfox]

And it IS NOT evil "judging" to try to safeguard the flock against phonies. Safeguarding was done by Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Peter and Paul, to name a few.

[Lucy most Valiant]

I think the error of perceiving Christ as more human than divine stems from the modern politically correct view that everyone is supposed to be tolerant of everyone and everything. It is taught in the schools from day one, and has become a permant part of society. Consequently, Christian pastors who want to still profess their faith, but appease the modern expectation downplay Christ divinity and uphold his humanity. For if he is merely human, than he cannot judge man or hold them accountable but is merely a peaceful, loving, holy man. Thus, I'm OK and you're OK and we all just love one another. And if you happen to be keeling headlong into terrible sin I accept it because Jesus was full of love and peace.

But dare I say God is intolerant. Of course he loves sinners but sin is utterly repugnant to him. He is all just and cannot and will not accept blind and unrepented sin. This of course is due to His infinite divinity as Lord of Universe. So, if God's divinity is downplayed, then divine justice, and divine law (ten commandments) can also be downplayed because they all go together.

[Copperfox]

Some things HAVE TO BE narrow, rigid and specific. When an airplane is on landing approach to an airport, even five degrees' deviation from course or from descent angle could cause it to crash into something as it lands. When God insists on something specific--like the Lordship of Jesus--it's for a reason, not just because He feels like being hard on us for the fun of it.