Are the Emerald Witch and the White Witch the same person.

[Josh]

For many years fans have argued on weather or not Jadis(from Magican's Nephew and Lion, Witch, and the Wardrobe) and the Emerald Witch(the lady of the green kirtle in the Silver Chair) are the same person. Lets settle this once and for all. Are they the same or not. And why?

[crazycigirl]

I always thought of them as different people. In my mind Aslan symbolized good, and Jadis and after she was defeated the Emerald Witch symbolized evil. It seemed to me that Jadis was defeated, (evil wasn't until Narnia was destroyed) then the Emerald Witch became the "evil". I don't think that they would be the same people, otherwise Aslan never really defeated Jadis. They were both evil and trying to take over Narnia, but different people from different places. Although they both seem to like giants. Jadis was half giant, and the Emerald Witch was friends with them. But than all the giants were evil anyway.

[Elentari]

Not ALL giants...Just the ones from the Western Wild. :) There was a giant in LWW and one in PC that were on the side of the Narnians.

The two witches are different. Two things connect them (as crazycigirl said):
1. Trying to take over Narnia
2. Evil witches

Each book had its own "bad" character(s):

MN & LWW: Jadis, the White Witch
H&HB: Calormens/Rabadash
PC: Telmarines/Miraz
VOTDT: minor little issues, not one big evil
SC: Emerald Witch
TLB:Calormens/Tash

I agree with crazycigirl that to make the Emerald Witch "Jadis reborn" would be saying Aslan never truly defeated her, which would make Jadis just as or more powerful, which we all know is not true.

[crazycigirl]

Ok, ok, not ALL giants!:D

But I agree with Elentari about the bad characters from each book, that's how I thought of it.

[Vanzetti]

I agree with crazycigirl that to make the Emerald Witch "Jadis reborn" would be saying Aslan never truly defeated her, which would make Jadis just as or more powerful, which we all know is not true.

Well, she ate the apple. Makes you wonder if she can be truly defeated at all.

[HugsForReepicheep]

I'd say they're different, but what could imply / suggest they are the same?

[gair]

-power hungry females using their beauty to ensnare easily led young men.
-prediliction for only colour of clothing =D
-come from the north
-are witches


In the silver chair it says (p179 in my edition, just before chapter 16)
a wicked witch (doubtless the same kind as that White witch who had brought the great winter of Narnia long ago)...."And the lesson of it all , your Higness"said the oldest dwarf "that those northern witches always mean the same thing, but in every age they have a different plan for getting it"

certainly the characters think they are different people

[PrinceOfTheWest]

I'd say they're different, but what could imply / suggest they are the same?One thing that contributed to the confusion was a comment in a cover blurb in one of the versions that said they were. This blurb was written by some anonymous hack at the publisher who knew nothing about the stories; nevertheless, that offhand comment affected a lot of people's thinking about it.

To add to the confusion, I understand that in the BBC series, the same actress played both Jadis and the Queen of Underworld, which would strengthen the correlation for those who saw it (I didn't).

We've had this discussion in other threads, and the conclusion is always the same: there's no support in the text of the stories for the idea that the Queen of Underworld is Jadis.

[kingcaspian]

In SC, during the parliament of owls, one of the owls said that the Lady of the Green Kirtle is probably of the same sort as Jadis, so I think they are two entirely different witches.

[Josh]

One of the reasons many think they are the same is cause some edition talks about Jadis saying: She is very dangerous, even in the Silver Chair.

Also Barbera playing them added to the rumor.

And remember the line in the books that says "Though Under Earth and Throneless Now I be, while I lived, All Earth was Under Me!

Now it is possible that that line was spoken by Jadis. After Aslan killed her in LWW, she took another appearance(the Emerald Witch) in Underworld. So she is "Under Earth" and "Throneless." But while she lived(as the White Witch) she ruled. Thinking she was on top of the world she claimed "All Earth was Under ME!" So that is on hint that they are they are the same.

[HugsForReepicheep]

One thing that contributed to the confusion was a comment in a cover blurb in one of the versions that said they were. This blurb was written by some anonymous hack at the publisher who knew nothing about the stories; nevertheless, that offhand comment affected a lot of people's thinking about it.

To add to the confusion, I understand that in the BBC series, the same actress played both Jadis and the Queen of Underworld, which would strengthen the correlation for those who saw it (I didn't).

We've had this discussion in other threads, and the conclusion is always the same: there's no support in the text of the stories for the idea that the Queen of Underworld is Jadis.

And remember the line in the books that says "Though Under Earth and Throneless Now I be, while I lived, All Earth was Under Me!

Now it is possible that that line was spoken by Jadis. After Aslan killed her in LWW, she took another appearance(the Emerald Witch) in Underworld. So she is "Under Earth" and "Throneless." But while she lived(as the White Witch) she ruled. Thinking she was on top of the world she claimed "All Earth was Under ME!" So that is on hint that they are they are the same.

So most of the reasons that leed to such conclusion are external to the books, therefore, don't count. Now that quote, Josh, is part of the books and needs to be thought of, but why would that relate specifically to Jadis? Just because she is the most powerful evil witch that appears in the series? If Lewis intended it to be so, wouldn't he be more specific on the matter, or add other quotes that pointed to that?

[~Lava~]

Emphatically NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Josh]

And remember the line in the books that says "Though Under Earth and Throneless Now I be, while I lived, All Earth was Under Me!

Now it is possible that that line was spoken by Jadis. After Aslan killed her in LWW, she took another appearance(the Emerald Witch) in Underworld. So she is "Under Earth" and "Throneless." But while she lived(as the White Witch) she ruled. Thinking she was on top of the world she claimed "All Earth was Under ME!" So that is on hint that they are they are the same.

So most of the reasons that leed to such conclusion are external to the books, therefore, don't count. Now that quote, Josh, is part of the books and needs to be thought of, but why would that relate specifically to Jadis? Just because she is the most powerful evil witch that appears in the series? If Lewis intended it to be so, wouldn't he be more specific on the matter, or add other quotes that pointed to that?


But thats the point. I think Lewis didnt want fans to be completly sure if they were the same. I think he wanted to make it more mysterious. So that is why I think he didnt make the quote directly point to Jadis. Though if you think about it, that quote does give a hint of a possible connection. This is a mystery of Narnia, and I like it that way.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

The only thing that seems clear to me is that people keep insisting upon seeing a connection where none exists. Lewis wasn't that tight a writer (a point that Tolkien made again and again). He just didn't get that complicated with his writing, and he wasn't the type to get into reincarnation and such. That toss-off comment toward the end of the book, the one already quoted about "those Northern witches" (note the plural) is the closest connection between the two different characters.

You could speculate some of these things about Charles Williams, perhaps, but not C.S. Lewis.

[Elentari]

The only thing that seems clear to me is that people keep insisting upon seeing a connection where none exists. Lewis wasn't that tight a writer (a point that Tolkien made again and again). He just didn't get that complicated with his writing, and he wasn't the type to get into reincarnation and such. That toss-off comment toward the end of the book, the one already quoted about "those Northern witches" (note the plural) is the closest connection between the two different characters.

You could speculate some of these things about Charles Williams, perhaps, but not C.S. Lewis.

Exactly. We've commented in other threads about how Lewis had loose ends and contradictions in his writing. Any argument suggesting him hinting at something and not coming right out and saying it would be in contradiction to his writing style. When else does he do that? Never. He's straight forward. Finally, the WW and the LOTGK don't even ACT REMOTELY SIMILARLY. If they were the same, I think they'd have similar characteristics, besides being evil witches. :rolleyes:

[~Lava~]

I agree with you there Elentari, they do not act the same. And that is because they are not the same.

Similarities:
1. They both are witches.
2. They both spent a conciderable amount of Narnia-time in the land north of Narnia.
3. They both are evil.

Differences:
1. Jadis doesn't do a good job of mimicing human emotion, LotGK does.
2. Jadis seems more powerful in magic than LotGK.
3. They are described differently.
4. They have different MO's.

[gair]

I agree with you there Elentari, they do not act the same. And that is because they are not the same.

Similarities:
1. They both are witches.
2. They both spent a conciderable amount of Narnia-time in the land north of Narnia.
3. They both are evil.
.

4. They both like wearing only one colour =D


Differences:
1. Jadis doesn't do a good job of mimicing human emotion, LotGK does.
2. Jadis seems more powerful in magic than LotGK.
3. They are described differently.
4. They have different MO's.

CS Lewis rarely describes any of his characters.
It is quite galling though that one of the few characters whose physical appearnce is noted - CAspian as a golden haired boy - is ignored in the film. Just a little petty hate. =)

[waterhogboy]

There is also the fact that, in PC, when the hag is attempting to retrieve the White Witch, Caspian says she's dead, to which the hag replies, 'You can never really kill her.' Perhaps this is saying she wasn't actually killed at the end of LWW.

[MrBob]

How could they revive her if she wasn't dead? In other words, if she was the Lady of the Green Kirtle, she would have been alive during PC. Tring to awaken the dead White Witch when she is alive as the Green Witch would be confusing.

MrBob

[~Lava~]

Very true, Mr. Bob.

The attributes that Lewis does describe of Jadis and the Green Witch are very different, right down to the way they ride horses.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

How could they revive her if she wasn't dead? In other words, if she was the Lady of the Green Kirtle, she would have been alive during PC. Tring to awaken the dead White Witch when she is alive as the Green Witch would be confusing.
Y'know, MrBob, this is a very good point, and one that I hadn't noticed before. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Lossëndil]

There is also the fact that, in PC, when the hag is attempting to retrieve the White Witch, Caspian says she's dead, to which the hag replies, 'You can never really kill her.' Perhaps this is saying she wasn't actually killed at the end of LWW.

I think she was actually killed. The hag is like those people nowadays that claim that they can talk to your dead geat-grandfather. Maybe the hag is able to call up an evil spirit of some sort, but not the WW. Aslan killed her, end of story. I trust that Aslan did his job properly.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

I agree with that. Too many people put far too much stock in that comment by the hag. Lewis himself pointed out that there's wishful thinking in hell, so I doubt he meant to make any kind of statements about the metaphysical realities of Narnia. That the WW could have even been brought back in some spectral form is doubtful; that she could be resurrected is virtually impossible.

Then there's always MrBob's point, which is the most clearly compelling argument I've ever heard to settle the matter - and so obvious that I'm kicking myself for not having spotted it myself. Construction of Underworld and the intricate nets of the Lady of the Green Kirtle would have taken at least a hundred years, and probably more. Even with an army of slaves, one doesn't build an entire realm in a few decades. Yet a few decades were all that would have elapsed between the end of the Telmarine interregnum and the kidnapping of Rilian. The Queen of Underworld was certainly very much alive - and already powerful - when Caspian and his soldiers fought off the suggestion that the WW be "brought back". There is no possibility that they were the same person.

[whitelion_bella]

let me inform you guys that there is something else that is kind of, how can i put this, similar to Jadis/white witch's personality.

the lady of the green kirtle named her horse 'snowflake'

now, what do you think about this?

[~Lava~]

Who says that she named it? For all we know, Rilian could have named her. She could have been given her by the Harfang giants; Snowflake could have been Rilian's second horse. Then again the Green Lady could have been enthralled by the Northern Witch who actually accomplished the goal that Lewis attributes to all northern witches.

I agree with Mr. Bob, the Green Witch could not have been Jadis because Jadis was dead at the time of Caspian's Coronation. The Green Lady was her own separate enitity long before this since words don't wear off of stone in 50 years.

[Josh]

Finally, the WW and the LOTGK don't even ACT REMOTELY SIMILARLY. If they were the same, I think they'd have similar characteristics, besides being evil witches. :rolleyes:


Well it could be that Jadis realized being an angry ice queen that shouts all of the time, doesnt work well. She was defeated in both the Magician's Nephew and The Lion the Witch, and the Wardrobe. So it could be that she changed her methods in order to find a better way to carry out her evil plans.

[waterhogboy]

How could they revive her if she wasn't dead? In other words, if she was the Lady of the Green Kirtle, she would have been alive during PC. Tring to awaken the dead White Witch when she is alive as the Green Witch would be confusing.

MrBob

Fair enough. But why couldn't the Green Lady be Jadis 'revived from the dead!?'. This is why the hag says 'you can never really kill her', becuase she can be revived in different forms from the dead.

I think when Aslan defeated Jadis in LWW, it was like Jesus defeating Satan on the cross. Although he was defeated he wasn't destroyed, and won't be till Judgement Day. Similarly, Jadis destruction wasn't final until LB. That's just my thoughts. I even wonder wether Tash was another of her forms... :rolleyes:

[PrinceOfTheWest]

That's really stretching it there, WHB. Satan is an immortal spiritual being, while Jadis was mortal. She'd have no power to bring herself back from the dead, or to survive death, for that matter.

[waterhogboy]

That's really stretching it there, WHB. Satan is an immortal spiritual being, while Jadis was mortal. She'd have no power to bring herself back from the dead, or to survive death, for that matter.

Where's your evidence for her mortality in the books?

It's only my own imagination. It's just what I like to think and I don't believe the books say otherwise, and as long as that's the case I shall think as I like :D

[Josh]

She ate the apple so she is immortal.

She acts different because she realized the way she acted before didnt get her anywhere. So she tried to be a deceptful seductress instead of a loud and angry ice queen.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Eating an apple prevented her from suffering natural death, but it didn't prevent her from being killed by Aslan, and it didn't empower her to take on another form.

What you guys are doing is all kinds of crazy speculating that has absolutely no support in the texts. You're spinning ideas about what Lewis intended by the character, but you have nothing from the stories themselves to build on. The only scrap of hint Lewis puts in the text connecting the two is an offhand comment about "those Northern Witches" [note : plural]. That's it. Beyond that, zip, nada, nothing.

You can imagine a world where this kind of stuff goes on, but don't call it Narnia.

[MrBob]

"She acts different because she realized the way she acted before didnt get her anywhere. So she tried to be a deceptful seductress instead of a loud and angry ice queen."

She was a horribly sore loser in Charn. Mind you, she was always on the lookout for the worst possible way to win.

When trying to persuade Digory to eat the apple or gve it to his mother, she used seducing language just as she had used with Edmund. She found the one thing that was his weakness, in Digory's case, his mother, and suggested that he use the apple to make her well instead of bringing it to Aslan.

She stayed "friendly" as long as it helped her. She was angry when her seduction didn't take hold.

The Green Lady, on the other hand much preferred to stay the seductress. When she got angry, she turned into the snake (Hey, she's green and changes when she gets angry--the Incredible Hulkess?) :p

"Then there's always MrBob's point, which is the most clearly compelling argument I've ever heard to settle the matter - and so obvious that I'm kicking myself for not having spotted it myself. "

PotW, I just thought of that last night. I'm surprised I never thought of it myself.

MrBob

[waterhogboy]

Eating an apple prevented her from suffering natural death, but it didn't prevent her from being killed by Aslan, and it didn't empower her to take on another form.

What you guys are doing is all kinds of crazy speculating that has absolutely no support in the texts. You're spinning ideas about what Lewis intended by the character, but you have nothing from the stories themselves to build on. The only scrap of hint Lewis puts in the text connecting the two is an offhand comment about "those Northern Witches" [note : plural]. That's it. Beyond that, zip, nada, nothing.

You can imagine a world where this kind of stuff goes on, but don't call it Narnia.

I apologise for my speculations, I'll try to be more narrow minded in future! :D I'm only messing, perhaps you're right.

Just out of interest though, we see that Jadis does have the power to change her form cos she makes herself into a stump in LWW.

[Elentari]

Just a random picky little thought here, but could we please correctly quote the hag? She says "...who ever heard of a witch that really died? You can always get them back". Then they attempt to prepare the blue circle. Even the hag knew the only way to bring the witch back was black magic. When she "came back" in the movie she wasn't completely alive then either.

As for the LOTGK's horse being named Snowflake...It's a white horse. Chances are, though she might have named the horse, it's more probable that Rilian did since she didn't care much for anything other than herself.

[~Lava~]

And Lewis puts it in Aslan's mouth that the north was a place to grow strong in Black Magic (MN not sure what chapter)

[waterhogboy]

Hmmmm... now, I've had a thought having mulled over this concept for some time.

We know that Lewis was very into classical mythology and used a lot of it as inspiration for his books. Now, I was doing a bit of research on Jinns and on Lillith and was interested to find that taking the form of a snake is a common feature to both! Also, we find that Lillith is renowned for her seduction and temptation. Both of these seem to fit with the temperement of the green lady.

However, we know that Jadis was half jinn, and so it would seem right that SHE possessed those qualities rather than the green lady... unless of course, she WAS the green lady!?

[PrinceOfTheWest]

And furthermore, she was first seen on a grassy knoll!

WHB, you crack me up!

We're all fortunate that Lewis' mention of Lilith was only glancing, and he didn't go into detail about what Arabic mythology says about her, and when she visits, and what she does afterward. Hardly appropriate for a family forum, eh?

[Sven-El]

And furthermore, she was first seen on a grassy knoll!

WHB, you crack me up!

We're all fortunate that Lewis' mention of Lilith was only glancing, and he didn't go into detail about what Arabic mythology says about her, and when she visits, and what she does afterward. Hardly appropriate for a family forum, eh?

Or for a children's book. And keep in mind her origin was more or less retconed. For all we know Jadis simply made the claims of her parentage herself.

[MrBob]

Well, if Lillith could go from world to world (on Earth as well as on Charn), what's to say she didn't also make it to another world where LotGK could have come from--or to Narnia itself in its infancy? Perhaps daughters of Lillith are naturally friends of Giants.

MrBob

[waterhogboy]

And furthermore, she was first seen on a grassy knoll!

My goodness you're right!! Sharp observation skills PotW!! :D

We're all fortunate that Lewis' mention of Lilith was only glancing, and he didn't go into detail about what Arabic mythology says about her, and when she visits, and what she does afterward. Hardly appropriate for a family forum, eh?

Yes, you are perhaps right. Though I'm sticking to my sinking ship of a story like the captain on the Titanic. I will NOT abandon it while there's still hope.

Well, if Lillith could go from world to world (on Earth as well as on Charn), what's to say she didn't also make it to another world where LotGK could have come from--or to Narnia itself in its infancy? Perhaps daughters of Lillith are naturally friends of Giants.

MrBob

Hmmm... however. If I stretch my hypothesis even more. Maybe the daughters of Lillith only got to Charn by means of Atlantis and the Wood between the Worlds (backing up the MN theory). They entered Charn and intermingled with giants and eventually gained control of that world. Ending with Jadis, who Digory brought to Narnia and then terrorised that world throughout it's history! :D IT all makes perfect and logical sense! What do they teach in schools these days...

Or for a children's book. And keep in mind her origin was more or less retconed. For all we know Jadis simply made the claims of her parentage herself.

And you, sir, sound positively English in your cynicism. :mad:

[~Lava~]

Johnny, even if she was a "Daughter of Lilith" That doesn't mean that she was any more related to Jadis as you and I are. As far as I know, you and I are related through the Lady Eve and the Lord Adam and not much further (unless weirdly, yours and my geneology crosses after that).

[waterhogboy]

Johnny, even if she was a "Daughter of Lilith" That doesn't mean that she was any more related to Jadis as you and I are. As far as I know, you and I are related through the Lady Eve and the Lord Adam and not much further (unless weirdly, yours and my geneology crosses after that).

No. Because only one daughter of Lillith entered Narnia that we know of. I spose you could say others may have entered through the 'chinks and chasms' Aslan mentioned, but that's just as theoretical an answer.

[EveningStar]

Nobody said the White Witch died without ever having ... well ... done things I can't describe in detail on a family friendly forum.

How do we know the Lady of the Emerald Kirtle isn't a DESCENDENT of Jadis? Therefore partly the same species. Maybe having a family resemblance?

Of course she probably didn't make her Snooky-Uckums a king, but Percy was probably one of those few men that ever scratched Maugrim's tummy to watch his leg kick whilst she whipped up some Bubble and Squeek in the kitchen.

It's also very likely that when she said "Time to take out the rubbish, Ducky Lover" that he didn't have to be asked twice. Even if it were hailing outside in the dark on a monday. While he was sick with flu and suffering from a mild case of broken leg....

Somewhere along the way, he probably got caught raiding the refrigerator at midnight and was fed to the secret police...after being slain, if she wasn't in a particularly nasty mood...while daughter dearest grew up and went to find herself new digs (literally). When Mum Mum got her head bitten off, Princess began seeing her stock portfolio going up, up, up...

I mean, think about it....

[MRW]

They say the Lady is the same type as Jadis. Jadis can't be the ONLY giant/Jinn cross in Narnian history. Even the hag in LWW provides evidence that there was more than one witch. "Who ever heard of a witch that really died? You can always get them back." Obviously, there's more than one. I've always liked EveningStar's theory -- that the Lady is Jadis' descendent. Ultimately, I don't think it matters HOW she got into Narnia. After all, we neither know (nor really care) where the hags and the werewolves and all of the other evil creatures came from. There are plenty of other places in the Narnian world for them to originate from.

Additionally, events in TMN can't completely be taken into account because, as Sven-El said, Lewis retconned Jadis' origin. TMN was written AFTER SC, after all.

[~Lava~]

We also know that there were more "chinks and Chasms" and that the Jinns (or at least Lilith) knew how to manipulate them. I still think that she was the prodgeny of an Evil Plant Spirit (are the evil ones also driads?) and a human (or a Jinn if you want it that way).

[MRW]

I still think that she was the prodgeny of an Evil Plant Spirit (are the evil ones also driads?) and a human (or a Jinn if you want it that way).

That's really interesting. What makes you think so?

[PrinceOfTheWest]

I think that an interesting speculation - that the "green" involved was somehow related, however distantly, to chlorophyll! Lewis makes clear that there are such things as evil plants who have spirits (see the description of the execution of Aslan at the Stone Table.) It seems to me from the sparse hints that the "green" of the Lady had more to do with venom, but that does not mean the plant speculation is invalid - there are, after all, poisonous plants!

The serpent thing is another aspect, though, and more closely ties to the venom aspect. Interestingly, I can't think of any other being in the Narnia stories who could alter aspect by nature. Rabadash was changed by Aslan, and the Witch and dwarf were changed by spell involving her wand, but I can't think of another case where any creature could just change shape.

[~Lava~]

That's really interesting. What makes you think so?

The whole green thing is part of it, but living underground waiting to spring up and catch people unaware is rather like weeds in a garden. They are there in seed form for quite awhile waiting for the right moment to germinate and grow, in essence they are living underground. Also a lot of poisonous plants in the rainforest are poisonous because they have a short life span (springing up over night and being gone the next one), and more so, they are often emerald green. The turning into a snake part seems to be something that the Emerald Witch has learned through spells and Black Magic. A vemonmous plant spirit crossed with a human can be very poisonous and very pretty at the same time. After reading the book I always thought of her as a dangerously pretty woman with top-soil colored hair and green eyes.

The only other thing I can think of is that she is some kind of Were-snake.

[MRW]

Now that you've explained it, that does make a lot of sense.

I always just thought she was the Emerald Witch because her snake form was green.

[waterhogboy]

Well, now that my opinions have been thoroughly ridiculed, I'll leave the matter as it is! :)

I like the were-snake theory! You can have werewolfs so it seems fair enough that the bite of other animals can have the same effect.

Your explanation of the poisonous plant idea is interesting Lava. I'd never thought of that before. The only thing is, I'd always imagined poisonous plants as being a very tropical thing, and so the fact she's from the North seems to make that feel a bit weird. I dunno though...

[EveningStar]

A were snake? But only on nights of the full moon? And would you kill one using a silver garden rake? Or would you cast them out with a spell of power such as "Slither thither!" :D

Talk about A Hiss Before Dying...

[~Lava~]

Poisonous plants live in a good many places, we have poisonous plants all over in my area.

I think that they killed her with a sword, ES.

[Animus Wyrmis]

::jumps in, kind of late to the party::

(This is my first post, so I apologize in advance if I screw something up. And I have lots to say, because I've been mulling it over while waiting for my account to activate.)

I don't think there's any definitive canon answer either way--there's plenty of evidence that Jadis and the Emerald Witch are the same, and there's a lot of evidence that they aren't. (I will admit here that I spent years being totally convinced that they were the same, and the first time someone questioned it I was totally flabbergasted.)

To start, there's two biggest points against it, for me:

Jadis is killed by Aslan at the end of the LWW
Jadis and the Emerald Witch act differently--the Emerald Witch is capable of feminine wiles, so to speak, and Jadis apparently isn't.


On the other hand, Jadis ate the apple in MN, giving her "unwearying strength and endless days like a goddess" (MN chapter 14). And in PC, we get the hag assuring us that "who ever heard of a witch that really
died? You can always get them back" (PC 13), and the rest of the company takes that as a serious threat [someone made an excellent point that, were they one person, Jadis should be underground at this point--but I'm not sure we have a definite timeline there, and anyway we aren't sure if the spell is a "bring her back from the dead" spell or a "locate her" spell or what]. As for her death, we don't actually see Jadis die, do we? We see that Aslan has "flung himself upon the White Witch. Lucy saw her face lifted towards him for one second with an expression of terror and amazement. Then Lion and Witch had rolled over together but with the Witch underneath" (LWW 16), and then we cut to the end of the battle, when the Witch's army know "that the Witch was dead [and] they either gave themselves up or took to flight" (LWW 17). And the narrator never actually says the witch is dead--he says her army *saw* that she was dead, which is a different thing altogether. So I would assume that it's possible that, whatever happened to Jadis at the end of LWW, she could be back again later. And while Aslan might be *able* to kill her, we know he follows his own rules, and the line about her being immortal was written after she apparently died. So I think either explanation fits with canon.

The other thing that gives me pause is that both witches go after Narnia with nefarious plots, but never seem to have plans of expansion. The White Witch, for instance, never bothers to take over Calormen. And I don't remember the Emerald Witch wanting to either (please, correct me if I'm wrong). And if I were an evil witch who knew that anyone who goes up against Narnia invariably winds up having to deal with Aslan, I would probably shelve that plan and take over the rest of the world first, if my plan was simply power. A personal vendetta, on the other hand, might cause me to try for Narnia again and again.

I admit that the White Witch and Emerald Witch have different powers, apparently, but then--so does Jadis in MN. And several thousand years is quite long enough, I should think, to learn different and more complicated magic. And there is the interesting inscription from SC that someone else mentioned.

Anyway, I personally think that this is one of those questions that can't be definitively answered either way, because I think both explanations work within the canon we've been given.

[~Lava~]

But in a way you just proved the point against you. You say that Jadis cannot die and so she must be the Emerald Witch and yet the Emerald Witch very clearly dies in SC.

[Animus Wyrmis]

But I'm not sure she *does* die, Lava. (And I'm not saying that she must be the Emerald Witch at all! I think it's possible, certainly, but I don't think it's the only possible explanation at all. She could have died; or not quite died and not been the Emerald Witch; or not quite died and come back as the Emerald Witch.) The book says: With repeated blows they hacked off its head. The horrible thing went on coiling and moving like a bit of wire long after it had died; and the floor, as you may imagine, was a nasty mess.

So they chop of the snake-witch's head, and she still keeps moving, and they assume it's dead--but apparently it can keep moving even so. It's quite possible, I think, that Jadis was *destroyed* here and *destroyed* in LWW, but that that doesn't mean she's necessarily *dead*. Can't she be seriously weakened--her spells destroyed--her snake form killed--without actually being killed?

Edit--that should be "I believe that the witch was *destroyed* here and Jadis was *destroyed* in LWW, but that doesn't mean either of them is necessarily dead. :)

[MRW]

Can't she be seriously weakened--her spells destroyed--her snake form killed--without actually being killed?
I don't see why not. This is MAGIC after all. ^_^ But, like the others said, I'd like to think that Aslan did the job properly the first time. Especially since Lewis didn't originally intend a sequel to LWW.

[Animus Wyrmis]

...I'd like to think that Aslan did the job properly the first time. Especially since Lewis didn't originally intend a sequel to LWW.

And if LWW stood on its own, I don't think I would argue that. But in MN--which was the second-to-last-book published, wasn't it?--Lewis sort of retconned that, telling us that because of the apple, Jadis would be given immortality. Now, I don't know how far the limits on that go, but I sort of think that an immortality in which one can be killed is sort of a lame immortality, and--while I don't argue that Aslan would probably have been able to kill her--he does sort of like to follow his own rules (remember when the Dufflepuds turned him invisible and Lucy made him visible?).

If it had just been the LWW, probably we wouldn't be having this conversation. But when one combines LWW with PC and MN, I think there's a strong case to make that Jadis is still around at the conclusion of LWW, regardless of whether she's the Emerald Witch later on. (As I said, I don't think this is a question that has a canonical answer at all; I think there's plenty of evidence both ways.)

[MRW]

(As I said, I don't think this is a question that has a canonical answer at all; I think there's plenty of evidence both ways.)
You do have a point. I suppose it all hinges on what Lewis meant when he used the word "immortal." Did he mean completely undestructable? Or did he just mean that she wouldn't die without outside influence (the way lots of authors use the word to refer to vampires)?

[Animus Wyrmis]

I suppose it all hinges on what Lewis meant when he used the word "immortal." Did he mean completely undestructable? Or did he just mean that she wouldn't die without outside influence (the way lots of authors use the word to refer to vampires)?

Exactly. I'm not sure how he meant "endless days like a goddess"; he certainly may have meant to leave the whole thing ambiguous. (I totally would have if I were Lewis; not only would that have meant the possibility of bringing her back again if I ever wanted it, but it would mean I could sit around watching my readers argue about it for years to come!)

[~Lava~]

A lot of things move after they die, are we to say that the snake that flopped all over after it died in Swiss Family Robinson was also a witch in disguise.

[Animus Wyrmis]

A lot of things move after they die, are we to say that the snake that flopped all over after it died in Swiss Family Robinson was also a witch in disguise.

Of course not; The Swiss Family Robinson wasn't a fantasy novel (and more's the pity). I don't know what generally happens to the animal forms of evil Narnian non-humans when they die; SC is the first time we see such a thing happen. It's certainly possible that they all writhe around, or that the snakes do; it's also possible that they don't unless they're not really dead. We can't generalize from that example, which is why I think you can offer it up as evidence for either side.

The quote from MN--"endless days like a goddess"--wouldn't throw up such a red flag for me if they weren't written after Jadis had apparently died; why not throw in an "until I kill her" or "unless she meets with an accident that prevents her from living"? I think (as I have said before) it's highly suspect to assume she's dead and gone forever and that's what Lewis wanted; I think it's just as suspect to assume she's still alive and kicking (or, uh, slithering?) later on in the series and that that's what Lewis wanted.

[MRW]

Exactly. I'm not sure how he meant "endless days like a goddess"; he certainly may have meant to leave the whole thing ambiguous. (I totally would have if I were Lewis; not only would that have meant the possibility of bringing her back again if I ever wanted it, but it would mean I could sit around watching my readers argue about it for years to come!)
I agree with you there! Besides, if things weren't ambiguous we wouldn't have anything to discuss. However, he did say like a "goddess" with a lowercase G. This leads me to think that he was referencing goddess of mythology (like Greek or Norse) which I think can sometimes be killed.

I don't know what generally happens to the animal forms of evil Narnian non-humans when they die; SC is the first time we see such a thing happen. It's certainly possible that they all writhe around, or that the snakes do; it's also possible that they don't unless they're not really dead. We can't generalize from that example, which is why I think you can offer it up as evidence for either side.
See, whenever I read fantasy, I assume that the book follows all the laws of nature that ours does until the author specifically tells me otherwise. I assume Marshwiggle blood is red until the book says that it's purple, and I assume Narnia's gravity is the same as ours until the book says something different. Things twitch and move after they die in our world, so I don't think it's likely to be any different in Narnia. Mostly, I think Lewis meant it to be creepy that the snake was still writhing, not a sign that it was still alive.

[gair]

how about that gods and goddesses are kept alive by belief? once people stop believing in them their powers fail and so they fade away.
The LoGK (i don't like emerald witch sorry - reminds me too much of little kids' stories) could be a faded version of the white witch - people think she is dead and don't believe in her anymore. And she can die properly because of this.

[~Lava~]

See, here is the deal, Lewis does not say "endless days like a goddess" and make me think that she cannot die at all. I see that and think: "Okay, so this fruit makes her like the elves of Tolkien, not dying unless they are killed."

I see "we can always get them back" and say: "well here is this evil being saying that they can get back an evil being." If I recall correctly, the line about "we can always get them back" was tempered by this line following it "So that is your plan, Nikabrik! Black Sorcery and the calling up of an accursed ghost"(PC 13, further down on the same page). In Screwtape, Lewis says "There is wishful thinking in Hell as well as on Earth" (Screwtape preface).

I will also note that snakes do have a tendancy to writhe after death, especially when death is caused by the slicing off of the head, I have personally seen it quite a bit (I live on a farm and snakes tend to be stupid).

One more thing, Dryads & Hamadryads are called the gods and goddesses of the forest in PC but in LB we find that these gods and goddesses can be killed.

[Animus Wyrmis]

And I think that her writhing after her head's been chopped can definitely be interpreted as simply moving after death. (You see here my bias for not coming down on either side--I think they can both be argued against; if it were a matter of say, fanfiction, I would accept either view.) Unlike you, MRW, I don't think we should necessarily accept real world-type laws as canon...would Narnia still be flat without VotDT? (And I totally get that this is a personal quirk of mine; I take a very restrictive stance on canon.)

Re: Caspian's comment--I'm not sure how we can take his word over the hag's, when he apparently hasn't learned magic (not fit for princes!), and she's, well, a hag. I would also note that instead of saying, "Don't be an idiot, hag," everyone *freaks* and Edmund and Peter come rushing in. Whether or not the threat is credible, it isn't laughed off.

I do agree that it all seems to hinge on how much weight you give to the "goddess" comment! I don't remember any stories of Greek goddesses being killed (Uranus and Cronus aside, but I'm not sure they count), but I could certainly be wrong. I would point out that we don't see other god/esses dying in Narnia--Tash is banished, but I don't remember him being destroyed. I tend to interpret it as actually like a goddess--if he simply meant "endless days until she is destroyed", why not say so? You can certainly see it that way, Lava, and I don't think you're wrong; I just don't think those who think that literally means she isn't going to die are wrong either.

But the dryads are tied to their trees, are they not? I mean, they're literally tied to a physical thing that can be killed. I'm not sure that's the same thing.

[~Lava~]

I still don't see how you can call up the spirit of a living person, I have never seen it done in any fairytale of weight or consequence.

It is clear to me that:

First off, the LotGK had to have been around long before Caspian was huddling in the cellar of Aslan's How talking to a hag as a last ditch effort to win a battle (as the old saying goes "Rome was not built in a day"). To have the sort of infrastructure that the Lady has underground and the relationship that she has with the giants is the work of many, many years; above and beyond the 70 or so years that she would have had if she had been brought back to life by the hag.

Secondly, all the evidence (saving a few cast off statements by people throughout the books which do not necessarily point to any oneness of the two) points that they were different. Can you imagine Jadis (in any of the books we see her in) treating a human like we see the Lady doing, I cannot. Nor can I see Jadis making a realization that her imperial manners are not well recieved. The Lady of the Green Kirtle has courtly manners and treats her guests much better than the White Witch ever did; she was capable of Human feelings, Jadis was not.

[MRW]

Unlike you, MRW, I don't think we should necessarily accept real world-type laws as canon...would Narnia still be flat without VotDT? (And I totally get that this is a personal quirk of mine; I take a very restrictive stance on canon.)
I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

I assume that any fictional world operates by the natural laws of our world only until there is canon evidence in a novel that points me in another direction.

Take your VDT example: until we read VDT, there was no reason to assume that the world of Narnia is anything other than round. I don't recall any evidence in the previous two books that points to it, and before this fact became canon, speculating that Narnia was a flat world just wouldn't have made any sense. Sure, it was always a possibility, because up until that point Lewis hadn't said anything either way. But Narnia certainly wasn't more likely to be flat just because it's a fantasy world and the real world is round.

In much the same way, it is possible that the writhing of the snake's body means that it's still alive, but it is terribly unlikely. Things in the natural world die when their heads get cut off. Their bodies frequently retain movement for a short time afterward ("running around like a chicken with its head cut off" isn't a saying for nothing). I don't recall Lewis writing anything in the Chronicles that implies a creature can be headless and survive. Thus, I must assume (until I am presented with fictional evidence that contradicts natural law) that the Lady is well and truly dead.

To have the sort of infrastructure that the Lady has underground and the relationship that she has with the giants is the work of many, many years; above and beyond the 70 or so years that she would have had if she had been brought back to life by the hag.
According to the Narnian Timeline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narnian_timeline), there was only fifty years between PC and TSC, which gives her even LESS time to complete everything, making it that much more unlikely.

I still think that the biggest evidences that they are not the same person are that their personalities are COMPLETELY different (as are their methods of operation and the types of magic they perform) and that Lewis didn't have very strong implications that they were the same person. They were the "same type," which grammatically implies that they have to be two different people.

[~Lava~]

While I don't put any stock in the Narnia timelines out there (even the ones that claim they are "Lewis Originated" directly contradict Lewis's writing), I was putting the absolute maximum year value that I could concieve of with regards my writing seventy years. I actually have reasons to doubt that it was seventy years in between the two but if seventy years is not enough time to build an Underground Empire (and it isn't) how much faith can we stock in the "same person" theory.

I also agree with you that grammatically, Lewis implies that they are different entities. There is more to support that they are blood-related than that they are the same.

However, if the Green Witch is related to Jadis, then how come she is never described as being incredibly tall (remember, Jadis is part giantess)?

[gair]

er...because Lewis hardly ever bothers with description?

[MRW]

For which I love him dearly. But he does mention things that are important to the plot or understanding of the character, such as Jadis' height and bare arms and Shasta's fair skin.

[~Lava~]

Well, she can sit sidesaddled on a normal-sized horse.

[MRW]

True. Does LWW or MN ever say just how much taller than normal Jadis is? I'm too lazy to look for it right now.

[AsbelMctalisker]

The other thing that gives me pause is that both witches go after Narnia with nefarious plots, but never seem to have plans of expansion. The White Witch, for instance, never bothers to take over Calormen. And I don't remember the Emerald Witch wanting to either (please, correct me if I'm wrong). And if I were an evil witch who knew that anyone who goes up against Narnia invariably winds up having to deal with Aslan, I would probably shelve that plan and take over the rest of the world first, if my plan was simply power. A personal vendetta, on the other hand, might cause me to try for Narnia again and again.
A possible explanation for this is that there is something special about the land of Narnia that means that whoever rules it dominates that world.
Perhaps the reason is that it remains closest to what Aslan originally intended at the creation before Diggory and the others arrived from England and mucked things up?
The real intent of both White Witch and Emerald Witch is ultimately to supplant Aslan, making themselves Queens of Narnia is a major step in that direction.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

I agree with that evaluation. It seems clear, especially from the creation account in Nephew, that the land of Narnia was in some way the "heart" of that universe. It was created first, upon it was bestowed the gift of talking beasts, living trees, and divine waters. It was the center of that universe, so whoever ruled that land had a special leverage over the remainder of the lands.

[~Lava~]

In addition, if you think of the dealing of Narnia with Calormen, you see that Calormen is definitely the stronger nation and also the least magical. I almost get the impression that because Calormen is a lot like our societies, the two witches power would not be of much use there.

[MRW]

The other thing that gives me pause is that both witches go after Narnia with nefarious plots, but never seem to have plans of expansion. The White Witch, for instance, never bothers to take over Calormen.
Well, LWW was originally a stand-alone novel. Lewis mentions that there are other countries in the world, but I don't believe he'd actually considered what and where they are at that point.

I almost get the impression that because Calormen is a lot like our societies, the two witches power would not be of much use there.
This is probably true. When Jadis came into our world, she utterly failed to impress or intimidate anyone except Uncle Andrew -- a magician.

Additionally, taking Narnia first seems to be the smartest move tactically, whether or not she planned on expanding.

She'd established a truce with the giants, so they didn't need to be dealt with. She could have probably taken over Calormen without too much trouble because they'd just have to fend for themselves. However, when it comes to Archenland and Narnia, they're sister countries. It was one of King Frank's sons who founded Archenland, and thus they've always been allies. If the Lady tried to move north from Calormen to Archenland, Narnia would come to their aide and trounce her (a la Rabadash).

Starting with Archenland would be even worse, becuase she wouldn't have the Calormen army supporting her.

However, starting with Narnia works because I get the impression that Archenland isn't strong enough to be much help. If they go north to help the Narnians, Calormen is likely to come up from the south and attack them while they're preoccupied. Their force is going to be divided, and things just won't go well for them. If the Lady then tries to move south, Archenland is likely to betray Calormen and help Narnia, even if their ruler IS a usurper, just because it's Narnia.

Of course, tactics aside, the Lady wasn't planning to take Narnia entirely by force. She had Rillian as the puppet king, after all. That wasn't going to work quite as well with the other two countries.

And, from a narrative perspective, these are the Chronicles of Narnia. The reader isn't going to care if an evil ruler takes over Calormen, because we're already supposed to believe the Tisroc is evil, and we haven't learned enough about Archenland to properly care about it either.

[Animus Wyrmis]

Eek, I go away for a day and all sorts of interesting and brilliant things get said! (Seriously. Y'all are so smart, it's making me giddy.) And I apologize, because this got *wordy* (which is totally not my fault. You try writing brief responses when there's a bear in your yard eating things).

As Lava says:
I still don't see how you can call up the spirit of a living person, I have never seen it done in any fairytale of weight or consequence.
Really? You can certainly call up people who lived in Narnia many years ago and are still living now--or at least, Caspian does. And as for the Witch, they simply say "Call her up"--which could mean "Call up her dead spirit, and we're all in trouble if she's not" or "Call up her living spirit, and we're all in trouble if she's dead" or "Call her up wherever and however she is". We simply don't know--the hag says they needn't mind about her being dead; we don't know if that's because she has an awful spell to bring back the dead, or an awful spell that will bring someone back, alive *or* dead, or because she's a sneaky hag and knows the Witch is alive.

First off, the LotGK had to have been around long before Caspian was huddling in the cellar of Aslan's How talking to a hag as a last ditch effort to win a battle (as the old saying goes "Rome was not built in a day"). To have the sort of infrastructure that the Lady has underground and the relationship that she has with the giants is the work of many, many years; above and beyond the 70 or so years that she would have had if she had been brought back to life by the hag.
I will confess that I have no idea how long it takes an indeterminate number of gnomes to build an indeterminate amount of buildings from an unknown starting point, nor do I have any idea how long it would take a witch (who may or may not have been part giantess herself) to create that type of relationship with giants. :) I will point out that the gnomes are either long-lived or the spell did something to their ages, because apparently after seventy (or whatever) years they can still remember Bism--that is, they weren't born in captivity. (Now I want a fic where they all get back to Bism and it's been, like, three hundred years and everyone they know is dead.)

I will also say that she's had a thousand years and more, if it is Jadis, to learn how to behave in a rather better manner. She does, you know, know how to charm a child in LWW, when she was totally incapable of wheedling in MN; perhaps it's not hard to believe that she could learn in that long how to flirt with a man. And if I were alive that long? Believe me, I wouldn't still be looking the same. :) (How much taller *is* Jadis than a normal person?)

MRW says:
I assume that any fictional world operates by the natural laws of our world only until there is canon evidence in a novel that points me in another direction.
I don't, not in other world scenarios. If a book is set on Earth in 2008, I assume that (say) gravity is still 9.8 m/s/s; but in Narnia? I don't assume that's *canon*. (There's a difference here--that is, if you were like, pre-VotDT, "I think I'll create a model of Narnia" and decided to make it round, I certainly wouldn't tell you not to! But I would argue if you assumed that was *canon*.) You're right that it's probably more likely; but likely and canon isn't the same thing at all. With the example of the Lady--as I have said, she might be well and truly dead. Or she might not. I simply don't take either way as *canon*, especially if I were following the Jadis!Lady theory.

AsbelMctalisker says:
A possible explanation for this is that there is something special about the land of Narnia that means that whoever rules it dominates that world.
Perhaps the reason is that it remains closest to what Aslan originally intended at the creation before Diggory and the others arrived from England and mucked things up?
The real intent of both White Witch and Emerald Witch is ultimately to supplant Aslan, making themselves Queens of Narnia is a major step in that direction.
Ooh! That's a really really really interesting idea! That would be possibly the coolest fic in the history of the world. But you know--Narnia doesn't ever expand its borders, and by LWW...and PC...and TLB...it seems to have trouble keeping itself organized, let alone being more powerful than those around it or having any sort of leverage over her neighbors. And yes--both witches want to be rulers of Narnia. But seriously, why? It seems odd to me that two women with relations with giants would show up and decide to take everything they could, just to have Narnia. Jadis doesn't even bother to take Archenland! It seems sort of personal, and I find that interesting. And the Green Lady, at least, would be able to take Calormen, I think. Especially if her plan is to rule from behind her man--that would totally work there. And if one is taking over the world...well, Narnia's never managed to annex anything that we know have, but Calormen's done pretty well in TLB and Telmar did awesomely. If I were planning on taking over? I wouldn't start with Narnia because of a gigantic lion that would insist on showing up.

(MRW--on a total plot side, of *course* evil witches need to take over Narnia. I mean, who cares if the Galma is being besieged? Not me! It's sort of...yes, Jadis becomes fleshed out in ways that don't really make sense with MN, because that's how writing prequels works when one didn't intend to. But the problem for me is that now we're stuck with a bunch of stuff that's there for plot reasons, and I want to meld it into something that works in terms of characters, because that's how my mind works.)

I really think (and, um, I'm afraid people might be getting the idea here that I really think Jadis is a) alive/around/not totally gone at the end of LWW and b) shows up in SC to be freakishly scary--I don't necessarily) that there are two* different parts we're debating: Is Jadis still around at the end of LWW? And does she come back in SC? Obviously you need the former to have the latter, but I don't have a real opinion on them. I think there's enough evidence to say no to both, or yes to both, or no to the latter and yes to the former. If it were a fic (er, Biographies of Scary Narnian Witches?) I would happily read any of the three. But I don't think it's at all conclusive enough to come down on any side with a canon! stamp.

*Possibly three. I was on livejournal a while ago and apparently some people think there were three witches, because of the differences in Jadis's backstory between MN and LWW.

[~Lava~]

Originally posted by Animus Wyrmis:
She does, you know, know how to charm a child in LWW, when she was totally incapable of wheedling in MN; perhaps it's not hard to believe that she could learn in that long how to flirt with a man.

Is she capable of charming a child, or is it that she scared him so much at first that he decided that he had to obey her and then pressed her advantages? I will note that she did not try to bargain with Ed until after he had eaten of "her food" (a food that will make you so desparately want it that you will sell out your family and throw your sister's friends to the dogs for it); in all honesty, she did nothing short of use black magic to make Ed believe that she was a nice person. Lewis very clearly states that the White Witch has no humanity in her; the implications of that are that she is incapable of being humane or of human feelings. The White Witch would not labor herself with seeking out a man to rule the kingdom through; she was a "great queen" she said so herself in the chapter "Deplorable Word" in MN. Nay, she does not need a man to be her puppet; she is Jadis. I would argue that Jadis was unchanged from the time of MN to the time of LWW in both her manor and her civilities.

Two other things:

Jadis' voice is described as calm (in the first meeting with her) and imperious (elsewhere); never bell-like (used to describe LotGK's voice on more than one occasion).

And according to the chapter "Deplorable Word": the White Witch is 7 feet tall "perhaps because Uncle Andrew was not seven feet tall..."(Deplorable Word; Magician's Nephew right after Jadis finishes her speel about how great Queens are above the law).

[waterhogboy]

As you know, I think Jadis and LotGK are the same person. For the reasons Animus stated and more.

People complain about her difference in temperament but this is easily explained. Jadis knows following her defeat in LWW that only someone of 'Adam's flesh and Adam's bone' can rule Narnia. That's why she bides her time during the Telmarine invasion and such to hatch her new plan. In this one she plans to marry a human and control him so, although he will rule in name, she will be the power!

I believe when the hag plans to 'call up' Jadis, she actually would be just bringing the already alive LotGK from her underground lair in the North.

[~Lava~]

And one needs circles and blue fire to this, why?

Another thing is that the Beavers make it clear that any child of Adam and Eve is a threat to her very life, she cannot work through them with out endangering herself:

Remember this: When Adam's Flesh and Adam's bone sit at Cair Paravel in throne the evil time will be over and done.

Jadis only worked through Ed because she knew that he was completely under her power due to his ever increasing lust for her magic food. Her power is not worth beans when a Son of Adam is on the throne at Cair.

[Animus Wyrmis]

So who was sitting on the throne when the White Witch first came to power? Why did Aslan need to plant a tree to protect Narnia from her under Frank's reign?

I don't know why one needs circles and blue fire to bring up a witch. I don't know, either, why one needs magical horns--or wardrobes--or pictures--to bring up human children. Or why the White Witch needs a wand to turn people to stone, when Jadis needed only her arm to destroy a door. Magic, one assumes, works by rules.

The prophecy, Lava, doesn't say that Jadis doesn't stand a chance against a Son of Adam. It merely says that when a human male sits on that throne, her time is done--and prophecies are tricky things; you'll notice they don't sit on the throne until the evil's gone, but that's a cause. They *can't* sit on the throne because Jadis won't let them. (And however dangerous it would have been for her to work with Edmund, it would be a thousand times worse for her to allow him to be reunited with his siblings--as we see.)

Of course Jadis enchants Edmund first (as the Lady may have enchanted Rilian; we have no cause to know), but after that she's more than able to keep him happy--his family is mean, he's wonderful, etc.

You say:
The White Witch would not labor herself with seeking out a man to rule the kingdom through; she was a "great queen" she said so herself in the chapter "Deplorable Word" in MN. Nay, she does not need a man to be her puppet; she is Jadis. I would argue that Jadis was unchanged from the time of MN to the time of LWW in both her manor and her civilities.
and of course you are right, but look where that's gotten her: defeat, defeat, humiliation, defeat, and...oh, more defeat. Why on earth shouldn't she change her strategy? Jadis uses people as best she can; the Lady uses people as best she can. They are not so different.

I'll add this, as I was just discussing this issue with a good friend. I think there are divides between what works and what doesn't--that is, something can be canon, or it can be possible within the realms of canon, or it cannot. That Lucy is blonde is canon; that Susan is blonde is not; that Eustace is blonde is (as I remember--someone, please correct me if I'm wrong) possible within the realms of canon. The question here, I think, falls firmly into the "possible" realm. It's possible Jadis died at the conclusion of LWW. It's possible she didn't. It's possible she showed up again as the Lady in SC. It's possible she didn't. Theories and personal canon can fall all over the map here, but if the question we're debating appears to be the *canon/authorial intent* of the thing, I think it's a losing battle for anyone trying to pick a side. :) Doesn't the very fact that we're all still here arguing about it a sign that it's not this clear-cut?

[~Lava~]

Of course she could change her MO, but you are all assuming that she is able to change to her whole character. Is the non-human, evil, proud, over-bearing Jadis able to change herself in such a way that would better her ability to succeed in a second time?

I might add that since she had not suffered defeat other than her death at the hands (or teeth) of the Son of the Emperor Beyond the Sea, she would have no reason to do so. You act as if destroying her sister at Charn and reigning for 100 years in Narnia are awful defeats. Had Aslan not risen from the dead, the White Witch would have won the battle against Peter and she would have reigned for millenia longer.

Had Aslan not killed her, why didn't she do as she planned before the rescue party came for Ed? If she did not die at Aslan's Teeth, then she did die when the 4 Pevensies took their thrones (also part of the prophesy as understood by the beavers). I must be firm on this point: all contextual evidence points to the fact that Jadis did indeed die at the end of LWW and that the Hag and the Werewolf intended to call up her ghost.

[Oleka]

It seems to me that Jadis and the Emerald Witch are different characters. After all Aslan has killed the White Whitch. Or not? In any case if suppose that the Emerald Witch is Jadis, why she lived under ground and didn't sent the Winter? And Jadis didn't can turn to a snake!

[Animus Wyrmis]

I think she probably could change her character or at least pick up better acting skills in the thousand-year interim.

Well, she destroyed her sister--but then she had to wait for who knows how long to be woken up; it was sheer luck Polly and Digory picked that pool and that Digory was just adventurous (or silly) enough to ring the bell. And she ruled for a hundred years in Narnia--but it took her long enough to manage it, didn't she? Nearly nine hundred years if the timeline is correct (which I'm not sure it is--but I think we can all agree it was at least several hundred years before she managed it). And then she only got a paltry few hundred years! If I were Jadis, I would want, this time around, a rather more decisive victory that would give me rather more time ruling and rather less time asleep or skulking around.

Had Aslan not killed her, why didn't she do as she planned before the rescue party came for Ed? If she did not die at Aslan's Teeth, then she did die when the 4 Pevensies took their thrones (also part of the prophesy as understood by the beavers).
I don't understand your first question. She didn't have time, did she? She knew Aslan was alive (to the best of my knowledge) when he showed up and grabbed her (that is, she's amazed he's around)--she had no time to grab Edmund and kill him. The rescue party took him before their bargain was reached, right? And the prophecies say:

When Adam's flesh and Adam's bone Sits at Cair Paravel in throne, The evil time will be over and done. I don't know that I would consider that death to Jadis, or really anything else. It says the evil time -- I would think, Jadis's reign, but we don't know if this refers specifically to this evil time or just any evil time. Regardless, I don't think it means anything about death or anything more than temporary relief for Narnia.
Because of another prophecy...it's a saying in Narnia time out of mind that when two Sons of Adam and two Daughters of Eve sit in those four thrones, then it will be the end not only of the White Witch's reign but of her life. This one seems slightly more damning to the living!Jadis argument, but we don't get the prophecy. We get told there is another prophecy which is either generally interpreted or interpreted by the Beavers to mean that if the four of them get to Cair Paravel Jadis will be dead (dead when they sit? Will die when they sit? Unclear). Jadis does reference this and seems to worry about it, but I don't know if she worries because it will be the end of her reign or her life. For all we know, the prophecy could be terribly vague ("The end of the White Witch," something like that) and be commonly but wrongly interpreted to mean her death. Until we have the actual prophecy, I'm going to have to argue that this doesn't tell us much at all, except that there is a prophecy which can be interpreted to bring about a bad result for Jadis--her reign, her life, both, neither.


I will be equally firm: all contextual evidence in LWW points to the idea that Jadis is defeated and possibly killed; all evidence in the series points to the idea that Jadis is defeated in LWW but has not yet been destroyed. There is no real canon answer to what the Hag intended to call up; only that Cornelius believes the Witch is dead ("All stories agree on that!") and that the Hag believes that is not a problem.

Oleka--Jadis was defeated when she tried to attack Narnia head-on and rule herself. Why not try another tactic? Underground was somewhere she could rule and plot in relative safety. Why would she send the winter? She had not yet taken Narnia; even if she had, we have no idea whether she would have wanted another hundred years of winter. (Jadis in MN could destroy things; in LWW she could make herself look different and turn people to stone. Oh, and make it winter and never Christmas. Why shouldn't she be able to learn more magic before SC?)

[~Lava~]

Okay, I will admit that the plan I was talking of was something I must have come up with on my own (or perhaps it was in the old BBC movie) since I don't see it in the book, I always assumed that she was going to hide out in Narnia and pick off the remaining three Pevensies as they left Cair for one reason or another. If she was still alive after Aslan tussled with her, all she needed to do was get one of them while they were with a hunting party or take out all of them while Aslan was away, or she could have just waited for them to leave to go back to their world and preyed upon Narnia after that.

She most certainly would not have waited until Rilian's time if she was alive when the Telmarines were in power because they did not have Aslan on there side and there was enough of the Black Dwarfs and other creatures who would have rallied behind her to get their land back. Why wait until Aslan was back in the picture before trying again? It seems to me that that would be most opposite to her interests.

[waterhogboy]

I think the vital distinction in this discussion is that between defeat and destruction. No one can deny that Jadis was defeated in LWW, nor that the LotGK was in SC. However, I think it's impossible to say that she was ever destroyed... that is until the Last Battle. Even if she was killed, that doesn't necessarily mean she was destoyed, only defeated.

I believe that after LWW, she was defeated to the extent that she would never be able to control Narnia again... however that didn't stop her trying.

[Animus Wyrmis]

I always assumed that she was going to hide out in Narnia and pick off the remaining three Pevensies as they left Cair for one reason or another.
That's a cool idea actually. I always sort of thought she disappeared back up north/west, to sort of regroup and try to figure out a better plan. (I also have to wonder how much of her power was tied into her castle and winter and wand--without those, how much did she lose?) I do think that she was weakened to some extent be her defeat, and that she clearly needed a better plan.

We don't know how long she waited, to be totally honest. We've been told that witches attacked/set to attack Narnia twice; we know Narnia was in some bad political turmoil or badly weakened/overpowered at least thrice--once to let the White Witch show up, once to let the Telmarines in, and once with Tirian (I love Tirian. But he sort of fails). But other than that, we have no idea what was going on. For all we know, Jadis *did* try more than once--even, perhaps, before LWW--and was rebuffed by the Narnians. After all, the kids don't get called into Narnia unless there's a problem or...or they're Lucy. And I assume she thought Aslan *was* gone, or she wouldn't have jumped in. :)

Waterhogboy--I think that's it exactly.

[MRW]

I must be firm on this point: all contextual evidence points to the fact that Jadis did indeed die at the end of LWW and that the Hag and the Werewolf intended to call up her ghost.

Bother contextual evidence, let's have some TEXTUAL evidence, shall we?
All page numbers come from my omnibus edition.

The battle was all over a few minutes after their arrival. Most of the enemy had been killed in the first charge of Aslan and his companions; and when those who were still living saw that the Witch was dead they either gave themselves up or took flight.

Jadis DIED at the end of LWW. That is canon.

The Hag in PC, by her own admission, is skilled in "spells and cantrips" (pg. 392, "Sorcery and Sudden Vengance"). A cantrip is defined as (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cantrip) "a magic spell; trick by sorcery" and as "artful shamming meant to deceive."

The hag's specialty is deceit. Essentially, she's a con artist. So when she says, "You can always get them back," it's just as likely that she's lying as not.

As for physical description, TSC describes the Green Lady and Rillian as being around the same height.
And riding towards them on that ancient road were two people of normal grown-up human size.
Jadis, on the other hand, is:
a great lady, taller than any woman that Edmund had ever seen.
[The words] sounded much grander when Queen Jadis said them; perhaps because Uncle Andrew was not seven feet tall and dazzlingly beautiful.
Jadis is seven feet tall. The Green Lady is the height of a normal human adult.

Another reason the Green Lady cannot be Jadis is that she has lived for far too long. Jadis died over a thousand years ago. The Green Lady supposedly remembers the time when the "Under me" verse was clearly carved into the stone. Additionally,
She is of divine race, and knows neither age nor death.
Jadis, as LWW makes clear, definitely knew death.

And to answer the question of whether or not the snake truly died:
The horrible thing went on coiling and moving like a bit of wire long after it had died; and the floor, as you may imagine, was a nasty mess.
"That Witch has lain a train of magic spells so that whenever she was killed, at that same moment her whole kingdom would fall to pieces. [...]"
"Hast hit it, friend wiggle," said the Prince. "When our swords hacked off that Witch's head, that stroke ended all her magic works, and now the Deep Lands are falling to pieces."

Jadis and the Green Lady both died at the end of their books. Their physical descriptions are completely different. Additionally, Lewis makes a point of likening the Green Lady to Jadis.
"Long, long ago, at the very beginning, a White Witch came our of the north and bound our land in snow and ice for a hundred years. And we think this may be one of the same crew."
A crew is a group of people who work together or are invoved in the same sort of work. This means that Jadis cannot be the only Witch. Why would Lewis merely draw parallels between the two characters if he meant to imply they were the same? Elsewhere, he's been very blatant when referencing the White Witch. His choice of vocabulary, the fact that Jadis DID DIE, and the conflicting physical descriptions makes it much more plausible that Jadis and the Green Lady are not the same person.

[Animus Wyrmis]

Jadis DIED at the end of LWW. That is canon.
Not...quite. The book says: "[A]nd when those who were still living saw that the Witch was dead they either gave themselves up or took flight" (LWW) (please forgive me for not citing or digging up my own quotes; I'm in the midst of packing and my books are sort of all over the place)--it's an indirect statement; it can be read one of two ways. First, that the Witch's army sees she is dead (because she is); second, that the Witch's army sees that she is dead--not that she is. Rather like...anyone read And Then There Were None? Each (except for the guy who helped him) of the characters killed after the judge "dies" can truthfully say "We saw that he was dead"; he is not dead. Either interpretation, I think, can be correct; it lends itself to either interpretation of Jadis's life. All canon says is that the Witch's army saw she was dead. It doesn't tell us the truth of that statement, or even what, exactly, they saw.

The Hag in PC, by her own admission, is skilled in "spells and cantrips" (pg. 392, "Sorcery and Sudden Vengance")....The hag's specialty is deceit. Essentially, she's a con artist. So when she says, "You can always get them back," it's just as likely that she's lying as not.
It is! We have no idea what the hag is up to in that chapter. She could be lying about any number of things, from her ability to raise the dead to her tacit admission that Jadis is dead to begin with. We simply don't know. I will point out, though, that this is seen as a credible enough threat by Peter, Edmund, and Doctor Cornelius that they do attack her so as not to allow her to finish the spell. And she does, doesn't she, phrase her answer to Cornelius as a question? "Who ever heard of a Witch that really died?" is I think the line.

Jadis is larger than the Green Lady; there is no reason for us to assume, however, that this is impossible. The woman can turn into a snake; surely she can make herself a little shorter, a little prettier, a little more like the perfect noble lady.

Another reason the Green Lady cannot be Jadis is that she has lived for far too long. Jadis died over a thousand years ago. The Green Lady supposedly remembers the time when the "Under me" verse was clearly carved into the stone.
Wait, how is that a problem? If the Green Lady is Jadis and she is telling the truth about remembering the verse, then clearly she was alive; if she is Jadis, clearly Jadis was alive all that time--and she has been around, by then, for ages.

She is of divine race, and knows neither age nor death. Jadis, as LWW makes clear, definitely knew death.
That, first, depends on what you mean by "death"; if Jadis doesn't truly die at the end of LWW, she doesn't know death. (Does Jadis age, as a side note? I don't believe so.) And, for that matter--who says this? Is it Lewis, or is it one of the characters? It sounds vaguely like Rilian might have said it; if that's so, can we trust him to know the truth about her?

Pg. 634; TSC: "The Queen of Underland":
The horrible thing went on coiling and moving like a bit of wire long after it had died; and the floor, as you may imagine, was a nasty mess.
This is slightly more damning than Jadis's death in LWW, but I'm still not convinced this is conclusive evidence; she's still moving (yes, normal animals do this, some of them; some of them don't. We have no way of knowing what creepy witch-turned-into-animals do). I find it still plausible that she's been defeated, and that her snake!self has been killed, but that the Lady is still around; more so if you accept that she's Jadis.

Pg. 637; TSC: "Underland without the Queen"
"That Witch has lain a train of magic spells so that whenever she was killed, at that same moment her whole kingdom would fall to pieces. [...]"
"Hast hit it, friend wiggle," said the Prince. "When our swords hacked off that Witch's head, that stroke ended all her magic works, and now the Deep Lands are falling to pieces." Wait, Puddleglum says this? How on earth would he know? This is guesswork, pure and simple, on the part of the characters.

Why would Lewis merely draw parallels between the two characters if he meant to imply they were the same? Elsewhere, he's been very blatant when referencing the White Witch. His choice of vocabulary, the fact that Jadis DID DIE, and the conflicting physical descriptions makes it much more plausible that Jadis and the Green Lady are not the same person.
Perhaps Lewis wasn't sure himself, and wanted the option of keeping them the same or different. Mostly, though, I don't think it's important to the stories whether or not the two Witches are the same. They're the same type of person, which I think is enough for the stories; whether or not it goes beyond that is sort of superfluous, I think, at least for the story (not for fans, though!). There is no "fact" that Jadis died, though--canonically she is *seen to have died*, which is not the same thing at all. Canonically, I think, they are neither the same nor different people, and I don't think that either is more plausible than the other. I almost find it more plausible that only one witch has been stupid enough to spend all this time and energy on conquering Narnia, only to fail miserably; but as I have said, I really think there's no canon answer.

[~Lava~]

But Jadis was not stupid; she was arrogant, mercenary, and cruel but never is she once accused of stupidity. I will remind you that in MN the White Witch was intent on ruling earth but we know that when she finds out there is a door to the world of humans visa-vee Ed, she doesn't get Ed to take her there even though she knows that with the four children coming her reign is going to be over. She doesn't try for Earth more than once. I doubt that she would try to invade Aslan's beloved country more than once.

[MRW]

Not...quite. The book says: "[A]nd when those who were still living saw that the Witch was dead they either gave themselves up or took flight" (LWW) --it's an indirect statement; it can be read one of two ways. First, that the Witch's army sees she is dead (because she is); second, that the Witch's army sees that she is dead--not that she is. [...] Either interpretation, I think, can be correct; it lends itself to either interpretation of Jadis's life. All canon says is that the Witch's army saw she was dead. It doesn't tell us the truth of that statement, or even what, exactly, they saw.
It's a pretty big oversight on Aslan's part to maul her and just leave her for dead. This is, after all, a WAR and Aslan and the soldiers would be quite remiss if they didn't actually ensure she was dead before leaving the battlefield. Aslan doesn't make mistakes, so if Jadis were still alive, he would have had to have spared her on purpose. I think that if he had, he would have said something about doing so. Additionally, this is the NARRATOR speaking, an omniscient narrator, so he was telling what the soldiers actually saw rather than just what they believed they saw. Jadis' death is (to me) indisputable fact.

Jadis is larger than the Green Lady; there is no reason for us to assume, however, that this is impossible. The woman can turn into a snake; surely she can make herself a little shorter, a little prettier, a little more like the perfect noble lady.
It may not be IMPOSSIBLE, but it requires a lot of speculation without much evidence to prove it. The White Witch CAN "make things look like what they aren't," but to my knowledge there's no evidence that the Green Lady also has this ability. Jadis used glamour. The Green Lady is merely a shapeshifter.


Wait, how is that a problem? If the Green Lady is Jadis and she is telling the truth about remembering the verse, then clearly she was alive; if she is Jadis, clearly Jadis was alive all that time--and she has been around, by then, for ages.
It made sense when I wrote it, but now I'm not sure where I was going with that.


That, first, depends on what you mean by "death"; if Jadis doesn't truly die at the end of LWW, she doesn't know death. (Does Jadis age, as a side note? I don't believe so.) And, for that matter--who says this? Is it Lewis, or is it one of the characters? It sounds vaguely like Rilian might have said it; if that's so, can we trust him to know the truth about her?
Fair enough. It was something that Rilian said, and he might not know the truth, but given the owls' comment that she is of the same crew as Jadis, it seems likely to be.


This is slightly more damning than Jadis's death in LWW, but I'm still not convinced this is conclusive evidence; she's still moving (yes, normal animals do this, some of them; some of them don't. We have no way of knowing what creepy witch-turned-into-animals do). I find it still plausible that she's been defeated, and that her snake!self has been killed, but that the Lady is still around; more so if you accept that she's Jadis.
But, as you cannot conclusively and canonically prove that she's Jadis, you can't use that possibility as evidence against a fact stated by an omniscient narrator. We've never seen anyone besides Aslan survive death, and the circumstances there were quite special.

Wait, Puddleglum says this? How on earth would he know? This is guesswork, pure and simple, on the part of the characters.
And yet, when the Underland starts to collapse the moment she dies, what other conclusion is there?

Perhaps Lewis wasn't sure himself, and wanted the option of keeping them the same or different. Mostly, though, I don't think it's important to the stories whether or not the two Witches are the same. They're the same type of person, which I think is enough for the stories; whether or not it goes beyond that is sort of superfluous, I think, at least for the story (not for fans, though!). There is no "fact" that Jadis died, though--canonically she is *seen to have died*, which is not the same thing at all. Canonically, I think, they are neither the same nor different people, and I don't think that either is more plausible than the other. I almost find it more plausible that only one witch has been stupid enough to spend all this time and energy on conquering Narnia, only to fail miserably; but as I have said, I really think there's no canon answer.
It's not important for the point of the story, no. However, I still think their individuality based on the truth of their deaths at different times IS canon.

Of course you can make arguments either way, but it seems to me that you have to do more tap dancing with the meaning of the text and a lot more theorizing in order to make them the same person. On the other hand, if you take the text at face value, Jadis died at the end of LWW and there's nothing to indicate that she was ever actually brought back, and thus she cannot be the Green Lady.

[~Lava~]

It's a pretty big oversight on Aslan's part to maul her and just leave her for dead. This is, after all, a WAR and Aslan and the soldiers would be quite remiss if they didn't actually ensure she was dead before leaving the battlefield. Aslan doesn't make mistakes, so if Jadis were still alive, he would have had to have spared her on purpose. I think that if he had, he would have said something about doing so. Additionally, this is the NARRATOR speaking, an omniscient narrator, so he was telling what the soldiers actually saw rather than just what they believed they saw. Jadis' death is (to me) indisputable fact.


It may not be IMPOSSIBLE, but it requires a lot of speculation without much evidence to prove it. The White Witch CAN "make things look like what they aren't," but to my knowledge there's no evidence that the Green Lady also has this ability. Jadis used glamour. The Green Lady is merely a shapeshifter.

This is very true, the Green lady doesn't ever seem to be able to make things look different to people, edgewise she would have used it when she was trying to Enchant everyone. She would have changed the appearance of the light so that it did not exhibit qualities like that of the sun, etc.

It made sense when I wrote it, but now I'm not sure where I was going with that.


Fair enough. It was something that Rilian said, and he might not know the truth, but given the owls' comment that she is of the same crew as Jadis, it seems likely to be.

Since the Lady told him of most of her plans at least in part, it is highly likely that he knew the truth. Especially since the Lady could have used such information to assure that he would protect her if trouble came. One does not want the world one is living in to colapse around him.

But, as you cannot conclusively and canonically prove that she's Jadis, you can't use that possibility as evidence against a fact stated by an omniscient narrator. We've never seen anyone besides Aslan survive death, and the circumstances there were quite special.

Technically, even Aslan did not survive death; he was dead for at least a couple of hours, then he rose. We have no evidence that anyone in our world or the Narnian but God Triune can rise of their own power from death. Thus, Jadis did not take that route.


And yet, when the Underland starts to collapse the moment she dies, what other conclusion is there?


It's not important for the point of the story, no. However, I still think their individuality based on the truth of their deaths at different times IS canon.

Of course you can make arguments either way, but it seems to me that you have to do more tap dancing with the meaning of the text and a lot more theorizing in order to make them the same person. On the other hand, if you take the text at face value, Jadis died at the end of LWW and there's nothing to indicate that she was ever actually brought back, and thus she cannot be the Green Lady.

I could not agree more but I will add that while their individuality may seem like a quibbling point in the story, it has severe implications that Lewis would not have tried exploring in the realm of his child audience. To give Jadis the power of defeating death at God's hand is giving God-like powers to an intrinsically evil character. This is what makes me so certain that he did not intend for the Green Lady to be Jadis in disguise, such an act would be something out of a Pullman book not a Lewis book.

[Animus Wyrmis]

I don't know that Jadis would be *stupid* for trying to retake Narnia. Perhaps single-minded is a better word? (And mind you--the smartest thing for her to do would with Ed would have been to kill him then and there, and then make with all haste to Tumnus and get Lucy. She took a gamble and lost; she gambled again when she gave Edmund up for Aslan. Why would she not gamble again?)

It's a pretty big oversight on Aslan's part to maul her and just leave her for dead. This is, after all, a WAR and Aslan and the soldiers would be quite remiss if they didn't actually ensure she was dead before leaving the battlefield. Aslan doesn't make mistakes, so if Jadis were still alive, he would have had to have spared her on purpose. I think that if he had, he would have said something about doing so. Additionally, this is the NARRATOR speaking, an omniscient narrator, so he was telling what the soldiers actually saw rather than just what they believed they saw. Jadis' death is (to me) indisputable fact.
I don't think it would be. He's shown before that he thinks delaying Jadis is an okay tactic (see the tree in MN). He doesn't need her to be dead-for-good to win this war; he needs her to be incapacitated/defeated. I don't see why Aslan can't have spared her--and that's even assuming he *wanted* to; if Jadis ate the apple, and Jadis is immortal, Aslan *may not be able* to kill her without going against the Deep Magic. And we all know how Aslan feels abouth that.

It's the narrator speaking, but he's saying *what the Witch's army saw*. Jadis's death may be an indisputable fact to you, but it isn't to me or a whole lot of other people. (I'll totally get to this again at the end of this post.)

Lava: Jadis's powers change between MN and LWW--why shouldn't they change afterward as well? And I'm not sure it's even necessary that Jadis come back alone; she has lots of followers still hanging around after her defeat; she could totally have pulled a Voldemort with her own personal Pettigrew. (And I'll remind you again: authorial intent is not canon. (Although for that matter, Satan keeps popping back up again, and she's always seemed more Satanish to me than Tash.))

And yet, when the Underland starts to collapse the moment she dies, what other conclusion is there [than that the Green Lady has caused the downfall with her death]?
Goodness, I don't know. That she's been defeated, and so it falls--because she wanted that to happen? Perhaps her powers need her to support them, and without her conscious they've collapsed. Perhaps one of the four pushed something and broke her enchantments. I can think of *lots* of reasons. Again--this may be the most probable explanation. It may even be the explanation Lewis wanted. But it's not *canon*. And, Lava--however much the Green Lady told Rilian, one cannot assume she accepted him as an equal partner and told her all. The passage can probably be interpreted to read that he knows, but it can also be interpreted to read otherwise.

I'm going to say something I've said a few times (sorry!): neither explanation is canon. I'm not trying to argue that an immortal Jadis masquerading as the Green Lady is canon; it's not. I'm not even trying to argue that it's the best explanation, or the one Lewis would have preferred (and if I've given that impression, I'm sorry! But there didn't seem to be much point in arguing that dead!Jadis was a valid theory, since you two are already doing so well). I just think it's *an* explanation. I think, really, that everything comes down to how you interpret a couple things:

The apple that Jadis ate, giving her "endless days and unwearying strength, like a goddess" (MN, approximate quote)--what does that mean?

That Jadis in MN uses different magic than she does in LWW: what does that mean? That the Green Lady uses different magic than either--what does *that* mean?

That Jadis (MN, LWW) and the Green Lady seem desperate to take Narnia, even though they should both/all know better--what does that mean?

The Hag in PC claims to be able to bring back the White Witch, though Doctor Cornelius reminds us she's dead; this is treated as a credible threat. Who can we trust in that room? Who's telling the truth, and about what?

That people see the White Witch die in LWW--that we don't--that we aren't told it directly: What does that mean? That the Green Lady has a creepy death--what does that mean?

That LWW was written first, and MN last, and SC in between: does that change how we see them, or which canon points we most take? (Corollary: why doesn't Lewis make sure we know the Witches are dead, why doesn't he show that, why doesn't he mention Jadis can be killed in MN?)

You're right, of course, MRW: I cannot canonically prove Jadis and the Green Lady are the same (I do not think it can be done). You cannot canonically and conclusively prove they are not. I mean, doesn't the fact that this keeps popping up again and again around Narnia fans--I mean, it made it to Wikipedia!--tell you that maybe it's really all up to interpretation? I think there is a really good argument--one that I would buy--for an interpretation that Jadis is killed at the end of LWW; I think there's an equally valid one that says she wasn't, couldn't have been. I think you can argue convincingly that Jadis shows up in SC; I think you can argue convincingly that she doesn't (I even know people who have convincing arguments that Jadis and the White Witch aren't the same, because of the differing backstories). They may not be equally convincing to me--or to you--or to someone else--but they're still canon-compliant; none of the theories can be considered canon.

[~Lava~]

You just basically said that it could be that God is not Omnipotent (all-powerful) when you said that Aslan could not kill the White Witch because of her eating the fruit. In addition, you skirted around the meat of my post about how Lewis would not have made the White Witch come back as the Green Witch because it opens a huge can of Worms.

It is my theory that the reason that the evil people in LWW saw that she was dead because Aslan swallowed her... "I have swallowed up girls and boys, women and men, kings and emperors, cities and realms..." (Silver Chair, Chapter 2: Jill is Given a Task)

[Animus Wyrmis]

You just basically said that it could be that God is not Omnipotent (all-powerful) when you said that Aslan could not kill the White Witch because of her eating the fruit. In addition, you skirted around the meat of my post about how Lewis would not have made the White Witch come back as the Green Witch because it opens a huge can of Worms.

Lava, I know what omnipotence is; please don't be patronizing. Aslan cannot kill her *without breaking his own rules* (if one interprets "endless days" to mean exactly what it says). Rather like, oh, Lucy in VotDT: she is not more powerful than Aslan; there is no reason he should need to wait for her to say the spell to turn visible. But he remains invisible in that house because that's the rules, and Aslan follows the rules. Likewise, he could certainly have saved Edmund without sacrificing himself for a night, but he chose not to break that rule. This isn't the "Can God make a boulder so big he cannot lift it?" question; it skirts it. This says "God wouldn't life a boulder he said was too big to be lifted", so to speak.

Anyway, what can of worms would that be? That Aslan didn't kill her? That evil can't be vanquished so long as there are people to bring it back up? I think the message still resonates: when evil threatens (as it does), Aslan will show. That doesn't change no matter who attacks, and Aslan has already shown himself willing to let Jadis live, assuming he can kill her once and for all. And I'm not sure that it even matters: authorial intent is not canon.

It is my theory that the reason that the evil people in LWW saw that she was dead because Aslan swallowed her... "I have swallowed up girls and boys, women and men, kings and emperors, cities and realms..." (Silver Chair, Chapter 2: Jill is Given a Task)
Which is an awesome theory, and one I like! I always assumed he bit her throat out, personally, but that's just me. But it's not canon.

[~Lava~]

I was not assuming that you did not know, I was clarifying in case I used the wrong omni- word. And since I said "theory" I have no doubt that none will take it to mean Canonical.

The Can of Worms is that the witch survived Aslan killing her.

[Animus Wyrmis]

I was not assuming that you did not know, I was clarifying in case I used the wrong omni- word.
In which case I apologize. It's been a rough week at my house, which is no reason to jump to conclusions and take it out on you. :)

The Can of Worms is that the witch survived Aslan killing her.
Which, really, I think is only an issue if you think Aslan meant to do away with her permanently. If she's immortal--if she cannot be killed within the laws of the world--then Aslan deathblow was never meant to destroy her, only to seriously delay her. And that's totally in character for him. So I don't think it's a can of worms at all.

[MRW]

That LWW was written first, and MN last, and SC in between: does that change how we see them, or which canon points we most take? (Corollary: why doesn't Lewis make sure we know the Witches are dead, why doesn't he show that, why doesn't he mention Jadis can be killed in MN?)
The very out-of-order order of the series (if that makes sense) is what has me convinced that Lewis meant the narrator's declaration of Jadis' death to be canon. I'll admit, my interpretation of the books comes because I read them in publication order -- I think it makes a huge difference in the way you view Narnian continuity.

LWW was supposed to stand alone, so at the time it was written, Jadis was supposed to be very dead. The Hag in PC later claims she can be brought back, but we have no evidence that this is true, and certainly no evidence that someone else tried it later.

SC comes next. In this novel, we don't have Jadis' Charn backstory. I'm not sure that Lewis had even settled on it yet, so technically we don't have evidence that Jadis' magic and methodology has changed over time. Because we don't know Jadis' past. We just know there is another Witch who has powers similar to Jadis, but who looks and acts almost nothing like her. Given that Lewis' original intent seems to be that Jadis died for good in LWW, there is no reason (beyond the BBC films;)) to susupect that the Green Lady is Jadis.

MN came after the others, and it's always been my least favorite because I think that in a lot of ways, it's a very weak prequel. While I liked that Jadis entered Narnia because of a human's mistakes, I think her Charn backstory doesn't mesh well at all with the information in LWW. Basically, Lewis isn't very good with continuity. I read somewhere (Past Watchful Dragons, I think) that he rarely, if ever, reread his published works and it shows in Narnia. The timeline he provided is contradicted by the books in a couple of places, and the information about Jadis is certainly contradictory. It is canon, so it must be taken into account, however, I factor it in LAST because it was concieved and written last.

At the time SC was published, everything readers knew about Jadis came from LWW. Based on that book alone, there is very little to make it seem possible for the Green Lady and Jadis to be the same person. If readers were supposed to believe they were the same person, if they were supposed to realize that Jadis had learned from her mistakes and tried again with a new MO, Lewis would have had to make it much more clear. Instead, the Lady is described as "part of that same crew" (implying that she can't be the same individual). She is then given completely different powers, and a completely different description. I think Lewis was trying to make it abundantly clear that they were NOT the same person.

Also, I think that if he had intended Jadis and the Green Lady to not be fully dead when the books claim they are, he would have made a point of bringing them back for LB, even if it were just to make a note of their total destruction.

[~Lava~]

I agree except on one point. I don't think Lewis provided those timelines I think someone who wished to cash in on Lewis's work made the timelines and claimed that Lewis had made them so that books could be sold with pretty pictures.

[Animus Wyrmis]

The very out-of-order order of the series (if that makes sense) is what has me convinced that Lewis meant the narrator's declaration of Jadis' death to be canon. I'll admit, my interpretation of the books comes because I read them in publication order -- I think it makes a huge difference in the way you view Narnian continuity.

LWW was supposed to stand alone, so at the time it was written, Jadis was supposed to be very dead. The Hag in PC later claims she can be brought back, but we have no evidence that this is true, and certainly no evidence that someone else tried it later.

SC comes next. In this novel, we don't have Jadis' Charn backstory. I'm not sure that Lewis had even settled on it yet, so technically we don't have evidence that Jadis' magic and methodology has changed over time. Because we don't know Jadis' past. We just know there is another Witch who has powers similar to Jadis, but who looks and acts almost nothing like her. Given that Lewis' original intent seems to be that Jadis died for good in LWW, there is no reason (beyond the BBC films;)) to susupect that the Green Lady is Jadis.

MN came after the others, and it's always been my least favorite because I think that in a lot of ways, it's a very weak prequel. While I liked that Jadis entered Narnia because of a human's mistakes, I think her Charn backstory doesn't mesh well at all with the information in LWW. Basically, Lewis isn't very good with continuity. I read somewhere (Past Watchful Dragons, I think) that he rarely, if ever, reread his published works and it shows in Narnia. The timeline he provided is contradicted by the books in a couple of places, and the information about Jadis is certainly contradictory. It is canon, so it must be taken into account, however, I factor it in LAST because it was concieved and written last.

At the time SC was published, everything readers knew about Jadis came from LWW. Based on that book alone, there is very little to make it seem possible for the Green Lady and Jadis to be the same person. If readers were supposed to believe they were the same person, if they were supposed to realize that Jadis had learned from her mistakes and tried again with a new MO, Lewis would have had to make it much more clear. Instead, the Lady is described as "part of that same crew" (implying that she can't be the same individual). She is then given completely different powers, and a completely different description. I think Lewis was trying to make it abundantly clear that they were NOT the same person.

Also, I think that if he had intended Jadis and the Green Lady to not be fully dead when the books claim they are, he would have made a point of bringing them back for LB, even if it were just to make a note of their total destruction.

Ooh, this is all really interesting! ::rereads::

I think you are right; I think a lot of our differences in interpretation come from how we approach the series. I think you are probably right (I say probably, because of course we will never know what Lewis intended and more's the pity) in that LWW was meant to be a stand-alone and that Jadis was meant to have died then and there, permanently, when it was written. If LWW was in fact a stand-alone novel I wouldn't be arguing this (well, I would still say that her death isn't canon, but the theory of not dead!Jadis would be purely one of absence of evidence against, not one where there's evidence for it, and I don't consider that very strong--I might jump in and go "it could technically be interpreted this other way", but I wouldn't bother to debate the point, because it would be implied canon). It's MN (and PC to a lesser extent--but mostly PC combined with MN) that really gives, for me, power to the theory of a Jadis who cannot be killed within the rules of the Deep Magic. I try not to rank canon, but I think if push came to shove I would have to go with the idea that the last thing written was the most meant, if that makes any sense at all. (That is, an author can change her mind after writing a novel and retcon it in the sequel, and I tend to assume that the author would have taken more pains to make it fit with the original if she had wanted it to.) I mean, LWW might have been meant originally to be a stand-alone novel, but eventually it wasn't meant to be, because he wrote sequels and a prequel, and that all has to fit. I do think it's entirely possible that by the time SC was written, Lewis had part of Jadis's backstory and was considering bringing her back later; SC gave him (I think) the opportunity to really go either way. (That is, given the statements in LWW, PC, SC, and finally MN, Lewis could have had Jadis show up again for a final showdown, or not; if yes, he wouldn't have had to do any more work ("I said she had endless days!") and if not, he wouldn't have left any threads dangling--even if she's still around post-TLB, she's in a dead world.)

My views on the canonacity (that is totally not even a word, agh, I need to go to bed) of a series tend to go first with the source material, then with companion books written by the author, then by interviews, then by notes. And if something is flatly contradicted I tend to go with the latest within a given group, unless I can possibly find a way to work it in. Does that make sense? I mean that if an author says "People can die" in book one and "No one ever dies here" in book ten, then I'll try to figure out a way to make those both work within the world (Something happened! People...turned immortal! In...five minutes. Or the first one was within someone's POV, whatever), and if that's flatly impossible ("Jenny was three years older than Sarah." "Sarah was two years younger than Jenny.") I'll take the later one as canon. Anything given in an interview or whatever that contradicts earlier canon doesn't get to replace it in my head. It's interesting that we have such different views! A lot of people seem to think that about MN--I know of at least one person who views it as a creation myth and not something canonical at all! (Er, a canonical creation myth?)

The very out-of-order order of the series (if that makes sense) is what has me convinced that Lewis meant the narrator's declaration of Jadis' death to be canon. (I am so sorry this got so long. I feel li