Forgiveness

[bruiser]

Firstly I don't know if this should go here, but it can be moved if needed.

I've been thinking recently over some things and I was wondering about people's thoughts on forgiving others. Most specifically, people forgiving others and ask of forgiveness for their mistakes to God. Well which should be of the greatest concern? Should one ask forgiveness of their wrong doings to God first then ask forgiveness from their neighbor? Also, if one can not ask for their neighbor's forgiveness but they are forgiven by God, does that automatically make things all the better? Does one have to always ask for God's forgiveness when one can fix things up themselves?

"Forgiveness does not always lead to a healed relationship. Some people are not capable of love, and it might be wise to let them go along with your anger. Wish them well, and let them go their way."
Is that quote true?

What about this one: "The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget."

[Spare Oomian]

I think that forgiveness is a concept people understand but don't.

The bible says to forgive your neighbors and that God will forgive. However, I personally don't believe that God forgives you unless you are truly sorry for what you've done...and in my opinion if someone cannot be forgiven by God then they should not be forgiven by others.

This is something that gets people into a lot of trouble. A person will murder somebody (just an example) and say "I'm Sorry" thinking that that is enough. But God sees deep within your heart, and He knows if you are truly "sorry". Some "Christians" only call themselves christians to they can do whatever they want but "God will still forgive me for it later". WRONG! To earn forgiveness you must me truly deeply sorry, and then you may be forgiven.

I think I agree with the second quote. Forgiveness is reachable, but honestly-if somebody does wrong to you it is hard to forget although you have forgiven them (if you have forgiven them). I'm not so sure about the first quote...it makes sense but I dunno.

[Copperfox]

Forgiveness cannot exactly be earned, but an offender does need to recognize his NEED FOR forgiveness, if the forgiveness is to do him any good. (It could be said that AFTER an offender has been forgiven, he can proceed to earn RENEWED TRUST.)

A human being who forgives one who hurt him is like someone delivering a pharmacy prescription. The delivery person has done his job with the handing over of the medicine, but the patient still has to TAKE the medicine.

Amanda dear, both of the sayings you quoted have truth in them. Since this is a forum where fantasy is enjoyed, let's imagine something ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE: imagine that you commit some offense against me so serious and hurtful that I can no longer trust you. In that case, my "judicially and spiritually" forgiving you would not create a duty for me to expose myself to more abuse by you, when you have shown no willingness to STOP the harmful behavior. More realistically, a battered wife can and should forgive her husband spiritually; but she does NOT owe it to him to follow him around saying, "Please beat me up some more!"

[Ephinie]

Hmm. Let me share a snapshot of my late teen-hood. When I was seventeen, just getting ready to turn eighteen, I had the whole process of going away to college all in the works. I was set to leave at the start of that summer, a couple months before school started, mainly because the sooner I could get away the better. My birthday is in November, so I still had more time to wait than I would have liked. But there was nothing I could do about it.

Then my eighteenth birthday hit, and with it my mother pulled me into a special meeting with our church's young adult/youth pastor. In this meeting, they (my mother and the pastor) told me that in order for me to remain living at home between then and when I would leave for college, I had to sign a "contract." If I did not sign it, or if I failed to obey it, I would be kicked out. Basically the contents of this contract included a list of daily, household chores that I was expected to complete in addition to the 40-50 hours a week that I was already working. It also listed a minimum sum of money I was to pay for "rent" each month (though that wasn't an issue as I was already helping out financially way more than the sum listed), and it listed prohibitions of things that I was not to do. All of these things were things such as no drinking, no smoking, no pre-marital sex, ect. Basically, a list of things that I had NEVER done anyways and had NEVER given her any reason to think that I ever would. Plus it listed a "curfew" of 12am, which was also ridiculous because I NEVER went out at night except to go to work. Granted, I was often at work until 2am or later, but it was stipulated that work was a valid exemption from it. Ah well. The part that is relevent to this post is that one of the other rules in the contract was that I was required to go to "deliverance counselling" at least once a week until I was either finished with deliverance or had left home. Nice. I had no other options at the time, so I had to sign it. And I figured, well, I'd only have to put up with it for a few months anyways.

So I went to these counselling sessions at the church, and they weren't exactly the most fun experience. I could go into some pretty intricate detail, but that would be veering too far off topic. What it all came down to was, eventually, they decided that I was ready for "Deliverance." I go there for my session the next week and there are two rather than one person to work with me. They explain that they always do deliverance with two people so that they outnumber the person being "treated." That way they have reinforcements if the "spirits" were particularly stubborn. (Now bear in mind, I wasn't exactly complicit with their views. I was just doing this because it was what I had to do. I didn't have any other options at the time that I could see other than to stick it out until I could leave for college. We had moved into the area very shortly before, and due to my full work schedule, I had never managed to make any friends there. So I didn't even have anyone that I could stay with for a couple of months.) They explained that before they could begin deliverance, they had to make sure that there was absolutely no unforgiveness in my heart.

This was where we ran into problems. The aim was to get me to forgive every person who had ever hurt me. Ever. Even if I did not have any concious awareness of having been hurt. My first contention, obviously, was that if I had no awareness of having been hurt, then I had not been hurt - so there was nothing to forgive. I did not appreciate having people try to, from my perspective, trick me into thinking something had hurt me when it really hadn't. I felt like they were playing mind games with me.

The second problem we ran into was when they brought up some things that I said I had already forgiven whatever person was involved. They insisted to me that I hadn't REALLY forgiven them, I only thought I had. But I needed to do it for REAL this time. That way it would be valid. I absolutely, firmly stood my ground on that one. I said that if I had already forgiven someone for something, I was not going to sit there and act like it wasn't good enough or like it wasn't valid. If I did that, then how would I be able to EVER say that I had EVER forgiven ANYONE? Because if they could tell me, "Well you haven't really forgiven so and so... you need to do it again!" then what would prevent any other person from coming along and telling me the same thing... trying to always make me feel like I was stuck in unforgiveness for things that were so far forgiven in the past that I hadn't even thought about them in years? It seemed like a precarious position to accept, and one that I would not tolerate.

The third and final problem that we ran into was in regard to the situation I was presently in at the time. My younger brothers were incredibly abusive, though they were not old enough to be strong enough to cause any kind of real injury. My mom was not directly abusive in the same way, but she encouraged their behavior in the way she responded to it. They basically were trying to convince me that not only did I need to forgive my brothers for their behavior, but that if I REALLY forgave them, I would just sit there and take it and not take any steps to protect myself or to change their behavior toward me. So. That was a problem. It was a huge problem for me.

I left that meeting two hours later feeling incredibly frustrated. Apparently they were even more frustrated, because they told my mom that I was simply unable to go through deliverance because I was unwilling to let go of my unforgiveness. At least that was the message that got back to me, and I'm not denying that my mom has a certain way of hearing what she wants rather than what is being said.

So basically, the experience left me with some very strong opinions about the nature of forgiveness. The first is that once you make the choice to forgive someone, don't let someone else talk you out of it. Even if you don't feel that forgiveness inside yet, you have to stand firm and insist that you DO forgive them. Also, don't feel like you are being unforgiving if you are taking steps to keep someone from hurting you. You can still forgive them while protecting yourself at the same time. It seems like it is very easy for people to throw in your face, "Well you need to forgive!" if they want to do something they shouldn't, and you're keeping them from doing it.

[Solya]

Those were very wise words, Ephinie, and I wholeheartedly agree with you. :) Thanks for sharing that.

Forgiveness, for me, is something that goes a lot of different ways. During confession, I ask God for forgiveness for all the times in which I have not followed Him as well as I could have and also for all the times I did or said something which harmed other people. Yet I also ask other people for forgiveness if I know I have hurt them in some way or other, but only if I am truly deeply sorry about having done so. I do not demand forgiveness from God or others, but I simply ask it.

Similarly, I have forgiven people who have hurt me a lot in the past because I can now see all the good they brought me through acting the way they did. It doesn't mean I will ever forget all the horrible things they did and said to me, but it does mean that I forgave them for doing and saying them in the first place. A lot of good came out of that awful period in my life and I don't want to be dragged down time and time again because of my inability to forgive them for making such a huge mistake. I wished them well in my mind and still hope they may someday learn something from what happened in those years. It doesn't mean I will ever trust these people again. But I have still forgiven them for what they did in the past, even though it took me many years to be able to do so.

[inkspot]

I recommend a book called Bold Love on this very topic: what it means to forgive and love the way Jesus did.

As for the questions Amanda poses in the original post:

* If you cannot, for whatever reason, get in touch with the person to ask forgiveness, then it's good to ask God to forgiveness. That "works."

* If the person is unaware of your offense, I would say, do not confess and ask forgiveness -- unless you need to make restitution. If you stole from somebody, it's good to confess, give it back, and ask for forgiveness. But if you just talked bad about them or something, and they don't know it, there is no reason to go and confess it so they can feel bad toward you and then ask them to forgive you. To me, I would not do that.

* God's forgiveness is the most important. If the other party is dead, for instance, they can't forgive you, and that's OK, but you have to make sure God to ask god to forgive you. It's His forgiveness that makes the difference for you spiritually.

* Like others have said, it's important to forgive, but that is not the same as saying you have to put yourself in the position to be abused again. If you can see that the person who hurt you might do it again, you should get yourself out of his reach, not question. You can fully forgive him and fully be smart enough to stay out of his way.

Ephinie, again, I am amazed at your family. Brother, that's wild.

[*Mrs.Beaver Fan*]

Firstly I don't know if this should go here, but it can be moved if needed.

I've been thinking recently over some things and I was wondering about people's thoughts on forgiving others. Most specifically, people forgiving others and ask of forgiveness for their mistakes to God. Well which should be of the greatest concern? Should one ask forgiveness of their wrong doings to God first then ask forgiveness from their neighbor? Also, if one can not ask for their neighbor's forgiveness but they are forgiven by God, does that automatically make things all the better? Does one have to always ask for God's forgiveness when one can fix things up themselves?

"Forgiveness does not always lead to a healed relationship. Some people are not capable of love, and it might be wise to let them go along with your anger. Wish them well, and let them go their way."
Is that quote true?

What about this one: "The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget."

Forgiveness is a wonderfull thing, especially how the Lord never fails to forgive us. We always want to be forgiven for our wrong doings even if you do not deserve forgiveness from the Lord or others,therefor we must forgive those around us.

[Copperfox]

I'm surprised that no one has directly discussed the Parable of the Two Debtors, from the second half of Matthew 18. Let me give what I believe will be a clear and accessible exposition of Our Lord's words.

In ancient times, and indeed right on up to a couple of centuries ago, it could happen that a man going into debt he could not pay might be sentenced to forced labor, with his debt paid over time by the value of the work done. This form of _temporary_ slavery was practiced in England's American colonies even _before_ they began importing African slaves whose bondage was permanent. This debtor-slavery system is the context of the parable in question.

In the parable, a king has entrusted a huge sum of money to one of his stewards. The steward, whether by neglect or intentional wrongdoing (Jesus doesn't specify), loses or wastes all the money with nothing to show for it. When the king audits the steward and finds out what happened, he declares that the steward, _with_ his whole family, must be sentenced to debtor-slavery, with the implication that the money figure involved could take all of them their lifetime to earn back. The steward begs for mercy so pitifully that the king relents and cancels the punishment.

Soon afterward, however, the steward encounters a lower-ranking castle servant who owes him a modest amount of money. Grabbing this servant by the throat, the steward shouts, "Pay me what you owe me, NOW!" The lower-ranking servant, unable at the time to pay, begs for more time; but the steward refuses to listen, and takes legal steps to have this man sentenced to the same kind of punishment the steward was just reprieved from.

The king finds out about this, and has the steward brought back to him. "You scoundrel!" roars the king. "I forgave you all of _your_ debt when you begged me for mercy; so you should also have shown mercy to your fellow servant! Since you would not be merciful, neither will I; your pardon is reversed, and you _will_ have to go into debtor-slavery yourself!"

Jesus concludes that refusal by us to forgive others will bring on us the same disapproval. It bears noting, however, that the lower servant on whose behalf the king was outraged was not, for his part, a defiant and unrepentant scofflaw. The lower servant wasn't saying to the steward, "Ha ha, sucker, I stuck it to you, just _try_ to get your money back," but was begging for mercy based on a professed willingness to pay when he could. Therefore, while demanding that we have a forgiving attitude, this parable is not clearly requiring us to be cheerful and compliant toward aggressive thieves who are in the very process of robbing us on purpose.

[Ephinie]

I can appreciate that story a great deal more now than when I was growing up. I still have a little bit of trouble with it, however, as it was used against me to shove down my throat the idea that every time I felt I had been hurt or wronged by my brothers, I was the one who was in the wrong simply for not forgiving them.

It also came into play with my unpleasant experience that I have related in this thread already. When I was in that "counselling" session, I was told - using that story to illustrate - that God was INCAPABLE of delivering me from anything if I had even one single bit of unforgiveness anywhere in my heart. Even if it was so insignificant that I couldn't remember it.

Still a good story, though.

[EveningStar]

Forgiveness, from the human perspective, has two functions.

First it frees you of the burden of prosecution, having a grief to bring against them before the Throne of God. This is not the same thing as reconciliation which may or may not occur. This is not the same as absolution which is a matter of the slate being clean from God's perspective. You forgave the man that killed your sister. You did so after testifying against him in court and watching him put away for 900 years to life. You never want to see him again, but you have ceased hating him and wishing that he would go to hell when he died. That relieved your burden and you felt like you could go on with your life, which was a good thing. The man who killed your sister may not have been forgiven by your sister herself. He also sinned against his wife and child by leaving them in the lurch. He ruined the lives of his mom and dad and three siblings. He also estranged himself from God by unrepentantly thinking he only regretted being caught. You can't send him to Heaven, you can only drop the charges you have against him.

Second it rebuilds relationships. You may look for the perfect wife, husband, family member, friend, neighbour or co-worker. Let me know when you found them. Let the Guinness Book of World Records know when you found them too. Forgiveness enables you to hold on to people who are flawed but worth keeping.

Forgiveness from God's perspective works differently. We were created to do many things on our own, but also to do two very important things we can't do alone...namely integration and fellowship. To do that thing larger than the individual, we must have a plan to establish order and certain boundaries of acceptable behaviour to preserve that order. God regards people who knowingly refuse to follow that plan or stay within those boundaries as malfunctioning. He has a word for that kind of kind of breakage....SIN. We can be repaired and forgiven, or we can refuse to be repaired...and end up replaced. That's what they do with my Nissan when one of the parts refuses to work with the others. I had a brake rotor that was reworked and now it functions correctly. I also had a brake shoe that was broken...it was replaced. Wholeness was restored. It was not done in anger (till I got the bill). I did what I had to do. So does God.

That being said, yes, God does experience genuine emotions. They are not exactly like ours. For one thing--and this ought to make sense to you regardless of your religious persuasion--God does not fight or flight. He does not have endorphins or adrenaline. He does not have a body designed to run from a sabretooth tiger or fight a romantic rival. When he gets angry, he does not bang his fist or break things. He experiences the emotion of anger but not the physical response. So he decides what to do to change the thing that makes him angry. God's wrath is simply another way of saying he's willing to do something way beyond taking you behind the woodshed with the board of education. God can and does punish with death and even death beyond death. Even though he does not get blind anger, you don't want to make him angry. Really, you don't.

Perhaps this is why God is so splendid in forgiveness. He doesn't get "fed up" the way we do because his emotional system does not experience the "fatigue" that comes from living as a spirit bound to a body designed to hunt mammoths with spears. We're in his image, but the model is much more sophisticated than the portrait, in the way people blink and move about while paintings stand there and stare.

[Copperfox]

Hunt mammoths with spears? I don't know about that; I'd think it would be safer to hunt mammoths who _didn't_ have spears. Right after I shoot an elephant in my pajamas.

[bruiser]

Thanks to everyone who has replied. Ephinie I am sorry to hear about your insane councelling session. I think that I would of snapped if they did something like that to me, but you would have gone through your parents if you did. My dad would of said something to the point of 'that's my girl' and my mom is unpredictable.

Papa Joe and Mr. Badger, both of your imputs are enjoyed and I look forward to them the most. [No hate towards anyone else.]