Chivalry

[Lord of Light]

Is it dead? Far from it, as many middle aged, and some youth are taught it. I for one, was raised to be a gentleman, but I took it a step further when I started reading books based in the Middle Ages. I decided to start putting myself last, and let others go first, which is what seldom few knights did, but when they did, they won the trust of their lords and kings.

Recently, I was visiting a widow with my youth pastor and 4 other youth, and when we entered and when we left, I held the door open for them. One of them then commented "That's so humble." I had never thought of it that way, so that somewhat freaked me out. But then I asked God why the person had said that. I slowly began to realize, God was using me to be a witness through humility that I was showing without realizing.

Now, I want to make something clear: I am not saying this to brag. I am using this as an example as it is the only one I could find. Although I would like to challenge any guys on this forum to start acting like a gentleman, and for one, stop one thing I have seen that is rather common in modern times: a guy throws open a door, and just goes through it, instead of holding it open for the women behind him.

Also, for everyone, including young women, I would like to challenge you to start putting others first. It may take some time, but eventually, you will learn. I know that God will bless each and every one of you, and I will be praying.

[Xenithar]

It's true that finding humility starts out with little things like service and such. I've tried to get into the habit of serving others whenever possible, as well as practicing patience, and the rewards have been peace and contentment. Sometimes it takes a while to find that joy in service, but when you do, the blessings are wonderful ^^

[Copperfox]

For chivalry to resurge, we must combat the LIE that "goodness is boring." As a matter of fact, the long narrative poem which I began today in "Writing Club," though I didn't know that this thread would turn up in "Socratic Club," is precisely about chivalry.

[Lord of Light]

Very good point Copperfox. The fact that you were writing that poem when this thread turned up is entirely becuase of God.

"Being good is boring" is something that a lot of today's youth think, but they fail to realize they're missing out on a HUGE blessing! I recently volunteered last minute for VBS at my church. Almost right away, the people I was working with, who were teaching 2nd graders, were glad I was there. Later, I found out, it was because apparently, one of the ladies' son was there, but he wasn't very authoritative. It might have been his age, but I don't know everything around the situation. However, he was there, which I appreciated, because we had to split into 2 groups, in 2 separate rooms, and one guy had to be in each room. I must say, even though it was my first time working with 2nd graders, I enjoyed it, and would gladly do something like that every week.

Once again, I am not bragging. I am merely using this as an example, when we put ourselves aside, and help others instead, we get blessed, and feel very much content, and then we wish we could do something like that more often. So I would like to encourage the youth here: don't be afraid to volunteer for a church activity. But first ask God if He wants you there. If He does, He has something planned, which only He knows.

[HugsForReepicheep]

For chivalry to resurge, we must combat the LIE that "goodness is boring.".

This might be somewhat off-topic, but why does people start thinking that goodness is boring? I know they do, but not why. It's curious... Stories where people are good are often called un-realistic or boring; stories where people fail all the time are more praised. Where does it come from? Envy, guilt, denial, lack of identification?

So I would like to encourage the youth here: don't be afraid to volunteer for a church activity. But first ask God if He wants you there. If He does, He has something planned, which only He knows.

I'm glad you didn't forget the two last sentences, Lord of Light. Getting involved in church work is something I've been learning in the past one or two years and slowly but strongly I'm learning what's my part in church, what's God work for me there. I can't just do everything I'm asked for or that needs help; when I do just for that, I feel extremely out of place and even guilty. On the other hand, when I do what He prepares for me, I feel pleasure and peace, and I want to do more. Funny, it often happens when I'm not looking for it. :)

[Lord of Light]

That's exactly how it happened when I ended up volunteering for VBS. I showed up the first day(after having woken up on my own at 6:00, which VBS started at 8:00) My brother and I just got in the van, went to the church, and they said they needed help, so help we did. God arranges things, while we just fall into step, and for us, it may seem like variable change, but its all in God's plan.

[Darth Sparhawk]

From what I read, you are far better people then me;) Yet to open the door and to hold it for a lady is at least a demonstration of good manners, so I usually do it, when I my mind is not too busy (for example if I am distressed by something I can forget about manners).
About the fact that goodness is boring. In stories, perfect heroes are truly dull to write and read. A perfect hero easily breaks every resistance of his enemies and so the story becomes quite linear. So usually writers add few flaws to the min character - make him hotheaded, sometimes cheeky etc. People like the villains because on screen or when you read about them, they seem to have no limits. Personally, when I write, I try to show a character with some flaws, who had to overcomes them and my villains are really evil.

[Copperfox]

No, a hero does not have to be invincible in achievement of results to be pure in moral character. And the better one's moral character, the more a person is himself INTERESTED IN the others around him. Thus the saying, "The only interest-ING people are interest-ED people." It's the good guys who benevolently involve themselves in the lives of others, while bad guys are only involved if it's useful or amusing to them.

If I had to choose between meeting a man who worked for charity, befriended his neighbors, helped friends in need, promoted fine arts, and set an example of chivalry....OR meeting a man who could only manage to brag that he was more human because he was a cheater or a traitor or a coward or a loafer...I'd pick the first man, thank you kindly (not counting if it were a matter of leading the second man to a saving knowledge of Jesus).

[Ephinie]

You know it's interesting, but we have a discussion about goodness and why being good is given a bad name nowadays going on over in the Lampposts.

I think in regard to chivalry in particular, our society has a problem because the word IS so closely associated with the middle ages. That causes us a problem because of two things.

First, our society has a huge problem with the middle ages. It is held up as an example of oppression and hypocrisy, and just all around ignorance in general. When you talk about chilvarly in regard to Knights, you can't get away from having at least one idiotic know-it-all who has to chime in about how real midevial knights were actually brutish and cruel and opposite in every way to the idea that chivarly is supposed to promote. Yet they never seem to mention that what we have lost is the IDEAL and the pressure to strive toward that ideal - regardless of whether or not people in the past were successful in their striving.

And the second problem is directly related to the first. Because people feel that knights of the middle ages fell short of true chivalry (and what human person hasn't?), they toss the whole thing out as one big, beautiful lie. They point to chivalry as hypocrisy instead of realizing that part of chilvarly includes overcoming our natural faults as human beings and never stopping to TRY to be chivalrous no matter how drastically we fail.

So basically, I think chivalry is scorned because of its tie to the time period. Yet that does not make it invalid, and it is still a good, noble thing to strive for.

(Oh yeah, and we are also fighting against the misperception that being chilvarous toward a woman is degrading to her, but that could be a whole 'nother post.)

[Copperfox]

If you ever get the chance, watch the fact-based movie "A Man Called Peter," about the life of the great 20th-century minister Peter Marshall. Early in the film, the woman who eventually marries the minister gets to give a rousing speech about how women should both appreciate and demand chivalrous treatment.

[Darth Sparhawk]

No, a hero does not have to be invincible in achievement of results to be pure in moral character. And the better one's moral character, the more a person is himself INTERESTED IN the others around him. Thus the saying, "The only interest-ING people are interest-ED people." It's the good guys who benevolently involve themselves in the lives of others, while bad guys are only involved if it's useful or amusing to them.

If I had to choose between meeting a man who worked for charity, befriended his neighbors, helped friends in need, promoted fine arts, and set an example of chivalry....OR meeting a man who could only manage to brag that he was more human because he was a cheater or a traitor or a coward or a loafer...I'd pick the first man, thank you kindly (not counting if it were a matter of leading the second man to a saving knowledge of Jesus).

Naturally.
Yet fiction is different to real world. To have a faultless hero is a bit tiresome. Of course, I would never write a book which has a murderer as a protagonist. But I prefer to make my characters with some faults - some of them are arrogant, others cheeky... I wrote a book about hero who fell to darkness and it was a very interesting experience.
Of course, in general my heroes have to overcome their faults. Actually usually they are very good guys.
Unilke my villains and I love to write about them, however. It is interesting. The contrast with the heroes is amazing.

[DaydreamBeliever]

I think sadly that most chivalry is dead/or dying.
Manners have certainly disapeared.I remember recently at church at the Children's Message,the pastor gave a small gift to each child.Only one little girl said thank you.:(
If you ever get the chance, watch the fact-based movie "A Man Called Peter," about the life of the great 20th-century minister Peter Marshall. Early in the film, the woman who eventually marries the minister gets to give a rousing speech about how women should both appreciate and demand chivalrous treatment.

^Love that film.:)

[Copperfox]

D-D-B, have you been following my ongoing "Tale of Sophia Renee" in the Writing Club? It is precisely about chivalry, though practiced by a hero who lacks the advantage of being a pretty-boy teen idol.

[DaydreamBeliever]

^Haven't been..sorry...I don't usually visit the writing forum.:o
I'm sure its good though.:)

[Copperfox]

You see, I set out on purpose NOT to create for my leading male character a strutting, posing narcissist, obsessed with what a stud he thinks he is. Rather, I created a blue-collar Christian hero who has never had time for strutting and posing in his life, and whose only possible appeal to a woman is the fact that he IS chivalrous in spirit and in conduct.

[Elentari]

Joseph, your Duncan actually reminds me of a George MacDonald hero. :) His men, in both historical fiction and fantasy, were excellent examples of chivalry in action.

I have to agree that the most damaging thing to chivalry, besides the "goodness" issue, is the wrong attitude of women. When I was at the university and the subject would come up in classes the guys would often say that they didn't open doors and "all that" because they thought the girls would be offended.

Personally, the very thing that turned my head when I met my husband was his acts of chivalry. He always opened doors, including car doors, for ALL women, not just me. He walks on the side closer to the road, he helps me over puddles, and he has me walk in front of him when we can't walk side by side. He has done all this and more for the past 3 years (we've been married just over 1 year). Chivalry is not dead...But we women need to encourage it for it to continue. This is not to say we should not also be humble and look out for the needs of others. I do not take opening of doors for granted...I always say thank you. I expect a different standard of my husband than I do of other men because he is my husband and I know what he will do. When I am not with him I am perfectly capable of jumping over puddles and opening the car door by myself. :)

[Copperfox]

Well said, milady! And yes, of course, George MacDonald: it's been awhile, so I wasn't thinking of his work when concocting the character of Duncan MacBrae; but I _have_ read some of MacDonald's novels (my first wife Mary, now residing in Aslan's Country, got me started), and I daresay that my Duncan would get along splendidly with MacDonald characters like Alec Forbes. Thank you again for your votes of confidence, both on my epic and on chivalry itself!

[SK999111]

Sorry to pour what you may view as atheistic scorn over discussion
but as with so many things, i dont think chivalry needs to have anyhting to with God at all.
I hold doors open for people and try to be chivalrous just because thats how i have been brought up and i like being nice to people.
So i don't need God for it.
Its a shame, as even some of the most (i hesitate to say Bible-bashing) Christians or religious people seem to have forgotten what it is to be repectful to others, even though they exalt the idea of loving God and being loved by God.
But anyway, my point is that some people are chivalrous and polite just because thats what they enjoy and think should be done, without any reference to religion.

*And another thing. In Britain we have something called the aristocracy, basically the current day bourgeoise, who have civilised parties and speak with a stiff upper lip. They all are RIGOROUSLY chivalrous, i.e wait for other people, speak politely and wait for the host to sit down before they do etc. That sort of chivalry seems to have become ingrained in the upper class British culture.

[Copperfox]

SK999111: The atheist may have more in common than he cares to admit to himself with the religious hypocrite. The atheist openly refuses to obey a divine standard, while the hypocrite really does the same thing but lies about it. Both of them substitute their own arbitrary individual preferences for a transcendent standard of right and wrong; but the actual fact is that any chivalry or other virtue they still practice, however furiously they might deny it, is NOTHING BUT a vestige OF the transcendent standard--something that a sack of mindless chemicals could never have thought of on its own. Your arguments on this line have already been refuted in the past, SK; but I'm glad that enough of the residue is left in you that at least you like the idea of chivalry.

[Lioba]

Hello, I´m back again from school-holidays trouble and find this thread- it´s great and I´m happy that some men still care for this!
But may I say a word to the ladies-as Copperfox already mentioned their is also our share in it- demand it and appreciate it [and try to deserve it].
Let´s not demand it aggressively and not only by looking if the man keeps the rules of good behaviour that we have learned, but look for the right attitude. Let´s appreciate it- sometimes a smile is enough answer.
And let´s deserve it-the wrongest reaction on male disbehaviour is paying him back the same way.It only brings disgrace on ourselves.
Amnd know I´ll have a look on dear copperfox poem.

[loverble]

I always try to be as helpfull as I can. 6th Formers (The year in school I am in) are notoriouse for knocking kids over and being rude and never operning doors. So I take a great delight in opening doors for the younger years and surprising them. I also always say please and thank you in a nice tone. The smile they give is deferntly worth it. I also try to help teachers when they are laden with books and I help out with things like sports day, which as 6th formers we don't have to go to. I did the filming for it this year.
So women can do it just as much as men. I think now that the times have moved on from the Middle Ages that so should we. Women want to be treated equil so we should also do things like be chiverouse (Seriouse spelling error Sorry).

[Lioba]

Loverble- shurely times have changed. If we would limit chivalry to the persons originally adressed by it´s demands it obviously were doomed to end, because the cavallery is nowadays not a very big branch in our armies;)
But it is still good to remember why and for whom the rules of chivalry existed originally. You cvan even find similar ideas in other cultures and religions, for example in the culture of the Samurai who were the knighthood of Japan.
As I can see, chivalry always teaches the proper use of the talents and privileges that are given to us, the proper conduct towards others.
This is important for men and women.But besides this it is really so, that young men have little example and teaching about proper conduct.It would be wonderful, if they just said- Iwant to be a good person and therefore I train and motivate myself, but that will not do for most youngsters. I think, that their exist two things that encourage a boy or young man mostly - the example of another man he respects and the approval and sympathy shown by the girls.That is not at all unemancipated or oldfashioned- it´s just natural.

[Copperfox]

I'm afraid the samurai were NOT anywhere close to the Christian ideal of chivalry. Their bushido code in itself contained NOTHING to restrain them from killing defenseless people, whereas anytime European knights killed wantonly they had to DISREGARD their own faith to do so. G.K. Chesterton made a highly applicable distinction here: between courage based on contempt for death, and courage based on contempt for life. The former type is what Christians are commanded to practice; the latter type is what Japanese soldiers in World War Two DID practice, when they went from torturing and raping civilians for fun to dying in banzai charges and kamikaze attacks. Don't take my word for it: ask the Chinese, the Koreans, the Burmese, the Filipinos, the Vietnamese, the Malaysians, etc. What turned the Japanese culture into its far more peaceful modern form was PRECISELY the fact that they got STOMPED by nations which had the CHRISTIAN form of courage--leading to a temporary occupation of Japan which practiced the mercy and leniency Japan had NEVER shown to nations IT conquered.

[Lioba]

Copperfox- I agree with you in this that the noble treatment of adversaries is an ideal that has it´s deepest root in Christianity. as for the Samurai- Codes- fore example the hagakure- it has several thougts that clearly contradict christian standards but it also had a function to form a warrior into a certain ideal.Japan and - as I freely commit- Germany in WW2 were far from any kind of ancient ideal of knighthood.But here you also find the difference.
The remmants of German aristocracy were divided into those who loved mostly their privileges and hoped that the Nazi -Regime would help them to reinstall their old rights. But some were deeply influenced by the ideals of a christian culture and therefore became part of the resistance. Many of them were involved in the assassination attempt of July 20th 1944. As Stauffenberg said- he desired a christian nation of Germany than just winning a war. Such an idea would be totally strange to other cultures and has its roots in a common european tradition that was stronger than pure nationalisme-as the idea of christian chivalry was to be found in all european countries in the middle ages.

[Lioba]

But I just wanted to say something about the question if chivalry is against emancipation. It was not yet said here in the forum, but we might often find it as an argument in discussions. Why open the door for a woman as if she couldn´t do it herself. Chivalry has it´s origin in a civilisation where women had no rights and so on. First of all,a gesture of politeness, like opening a door, offering a seat in a stuffed streetcar and so on are meant as signs of respect and nothing else. When a guest enters my house I stand up and greet him to show my respect and not because he is unable to enter the room without my help.Their are gestures of charity like helping the little ones and gestures of respect .Both belong to chivalry and sometimes both aspects come together for example when I ask my children to carry Grannys bags when we go shopping.
The second point is, that chivalry has it´s origin in the aristocratic society of the middle ages and women could hold a lot of power at that time and could be rather well educated.When women like Eleanore of Aquitania or Hildegard von Bingen could "endure " chivalry without being offended, I see no reason why I should complain.

[Celebrion Seregon]

I have to say Chivalry isn't dead, but rather hard to find.

I've gotten so used to opening doors myself and what not, when a guy grabs it instead, I often wait for him to go through it himself and then catch it to enter myself, and when he simply holds it, I'm all confused about how to respond.

At camp this summer there were two guys in my "grow group" both were known to use foul language, but as usual I commented to one to watch his language, and the other agreed, he told the other boy, that he didn't mind the language himself, but it would not do to use it around ladies. something that is not often seen, a guy correcting his peers.

I knew a boy with impeccable manners....at first and around adults, but after he started dating a girl, and was no longer interested in me, all that stopped. if your going to be chivalrous, do it at all times or else you look like a cad

woman can be polite as well, offer to hold doors for other ladies and such...their smiles are a great reward. I recall holding a door and allowing an older African American enter before me at a gas station and she looked like she couldn't believe it. I also try to say ma'am or sir, on occasion even while talking to peers. it shows respect and people appreciate it.

[uniquemonke]

That was really well said everyone!!! i agree, most girls now a days when a guy does something nice for them they are shocked and just go, uh....thanks..., or they will just not say anything, its annoying to see them not appriate their willingness to do nice things for girls or women. if a guy does something nice for me i thank them, unless i didnt notice in time or they walked away already,

[Solya]

Oh, I simply adore the chivalrous men who'll open doors for women and stuff. :) The thing that makes it so magnificent is, in my opinion, that it is so incredibly rare for a man to do that for a woman nowadays. I was treated like a little princess at work today by my male colleague (who is, coincidentally, the one guy I can honestly say I love to pieces) and it just made me feel so much better about myself as a woman. It strengthened me to know that he was there to 'take care of me'.

Most of the time, you hear women complain that they'd rather open doors themselves or carry heavy stuff all by themselves. I guess that they feel like they're being 'judged' by men in the sense of "those women can't do anything on their own". I personally don't have that problem... in fact, I think much more highly of a man offering something chivalrous than I think of a man who just only takes care of himself!

[Copperfox]

Solya, are YOU current on my "Sophia Renee" story? Right now, Duncan MacBrae, my carefully-designed EMBODIMENT of Christian gallantry, really needs you in the bleachers cheering him on!

[Solya]

Ohhhh, I'm going to check it out tomorrow when I've got a day off. :) Really looks like I'm going to be rooting for the guy you describe... if only because he will remind me of that precious colleague. ;)