Your views of Christians/Christianity [Archive] - The Dancing Lawn

inkspot

07-10-2008, 02:16 PM

I notice sometimes in the Islam discussion thread, rather than responding to the statements about Islam, people sometimes just say, "Oh yeah? Well Christians are worse!" and tell something dreadful they believe about Christianity. Sometimes they are just mistaken about the facts/history; other times it seems to me the bad things which has been done was done by people claiming to be Christians but who actually weren't doing as Jesus did.

Be that as it may, I thought these kind of discussions would be better held in this thread than in the Islam thread.

For our discussion, we will define "Christianity" as the path of following the teachings of Jesus Christ.

We will define "Christian" as a person who believes the historical/biblical figure of Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God whose death and resurrection made a way for the forgiveness of sin, and for humans to be reconciled to God.

We will not use the word "Christian" as an adjective -- "I go to a Christian school ..." because in the Bible, the word Christian was strictly applied to people, so we will be purists and say the word cannot be applied to institutions or things.

I will go first with my opinion:

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's Son, Savior, and I feel that the path of walking with Him daily leads to spiritual fulfillment in this life and heaven in the next.

(You don't have to be a Christian to post here -- you can post questions or complaints, just like in the Islam thread. In fact, if you are about to blast Christianity in the Islam thread, don't do it -- instead, come over here and do it.)

Protagonist

07-10-2008, 02:37 PM

i don't like them they smell...

actually Christians are some of the nicest people I've met. Maybe except a few....

EveningStar

07-10-2008, 02:41 PM

The higher the standards of the belief structure, the more people in it will look like hypocrites, just because of human nature.

It's basically one of two religions in the world that claim NONE of its members are good enough to deserve membership. Something that reminds me of Groucho Marx' famous quote that he wouldn't join any organization that would have a man like him as a member!

Folk judge us the way they would judge members of the Lions' Club or the American Dental Association. Here are the standards. Here are the members. Do they practice what they preach? Keep in mind that the ADA says "Yes, or we expel them!" whilst Christianity says "No, but we forgive them!" That is a very important distinction. Christian isn't something you ARE, it's something God DOES to you if you let him.

Copperfox

07-10-2008, 03:39 PM

Though moral conduct is obviously relevant, as long as people speak ONLY of moral conduct they are missing the point. If you discuss nothing but who behaves better than who, it's as if two airplane enthusiasts were arguing over the merits of two different propellor-driven airplanes...while completely ignoring the faster-than-light starship that was making a soft landing a hundred meters away from them. Like breaking the light-speed barrier, Jesus broke the cosmic degeneracy barrier. Unlike ANY other belief system ever, Christianity DOES NOT ONLY recommend a code of behavior; it offers ATONEMENT for our chronic FAILURES to behave morally.

onlymystory

07-10-2008, 07:09 PM

I always like how CS Lewis talks about the term Christian. He explains first about how the word gentleman used to mean a man who owned land and had a coat of arms. He might be a liar and a cheat but he was still a gentleman. And then people said that a gentleman should be upright, and honest, and all these other good qualities. Which Lewis points out are all very nice, but it changes the usefulness of the word. Now calling someone a gentleman is simply a compliment, instead of actually giving any indication of the facts about the man. (Like calling a meal nice doesn't say anything about the meal or the chef). He argues that if we do the same with the term Christian, we will loose the true meaning of it. If someone has accepted Christ as their personal savior but is living with their boyfriend, it doesn't mean they are not a Christian. It means they are a bad Christian. I think its a good point to remember. Saying someone is a Christian shouldn't mean they are nice, or close minded, or good at serving in the community, or any of that sort of thing. It should mean that they adher to a biblical system of belief in Jesus Christ. The rest determines what type of Christian they are.

inkspot

07-10-2008, 07:47 PM

Oh, good point, Melissa! I had forgotten that business about "gentlemn" from Mere Christianity.

So, a person can be a Christian and perhaps not living completely withing a certain expected code of conduct.

onlymystory

07-10-2008, 08:25 PM

Exactly. If I remember right, Lewis makes the point that calling someone a Christian and only meaning they are a good person by it is useless. Just say they are a good person. And so if a Christian means someone who believes that Jesus was the son of God, died for our sins, rose again and that we have to accept Him as our Savior and Lord...then someone one living in sin, is simply a bad Christian. Not a non-Christian.

Elentari

07-10-2008, 10:21 PM

I'm glad I waited to respond to this until others did. This is an interesting and thought provoking thread. :)

Only My Story--you have some excellent insights and I love how you have involved Lewis' ideas and not just your own.

Saying someone is a Christian shouldn't mean they are nice, or close minded, or good at serving in the community, or any of that sort of thing. It should mean that they adher to a biblical system of belief in Jesus Christ. The rest determines what type of Christian they are.

This is an excellent point. So many people, especially in America, label themselves as "Christian" because they go to church or because "The US is a Christian nation", or because they simply aren't anything else. As inkspot touched on in the original post, the word Christian literally means "follower of Christ" (I am especially familiar with this since it is also the meaning of MY name). :) Technically speaking, if you are a follower of someone (or Someone) you SHOULD "adher to" the "system of belief", yet how you live out your life DEMONSTRATES to what extent you are a true/loyal follower or if you are a follower in name only.

If I remember right, Lewis makes the point that calling someone a Christian and only meaning they are a good person by it is useless. Just say they are a good person. And so if a Christian means someone who believes that Jesus was the son of God, died for our sins, rose again and that we have to accept Him as our Savior and Lord...then someone one living in sin, is simply a bad Christian. Not a non-Christian.

I'm assuming you mean that this someone who is living in sin has at some point in his/her life believed the above? If that is the case, I would not question that they are simply a bad Christian and not a non-Christian, but I would question the deepness of their belief. It would be like saying "I believe that You died on the cross as a sacrifice so that I would not have to pay the eternal penalty for my sin, but I am going to continue to do whatever I want anyway, thanks just the same."

It actually reminds me of Susan in The Last Battle. She believed at one time, and may yet believe again, but she has chosen to not believe for the present.

Mello

07-11-2008, 10:14 AM

Christianity is simply just another religion. And what are religion's good for? Controlling people.

Do I believe God exists? No.

Do I believe Jesus existed? Maybe. Just another prophet like Muhammad.

Honestly, what makes this God anymore real then the Greek and Egyptian Gods?

EveningStar

07-11-2008, 11:05 AM

Jersey, you think Christianity is just another religion. I respect that this is your opinion, and that you have a right to hold that opinion.

Yet your post carries a bit of bitterness with it. As if someone had deeply hurt or badly disappointed you at some time in the past. As if you don't just lack a religion, you dumped it or felt dumped by it.

I'm surprised at the number of what I call "angry athiests" I see out there. They treat God the way many bitter divorcees talk about "how men are" as if they all had the same desire to chase skirts, get drunk on Saturday night, and beat their wife, down to the last male organism.

I humbly suggest that while I'm not Muslim I don't curse Mohammad, laugh at ancient Greek temples or insult Hindus. I respect the desire of humankind to answer the great questions of existance. Who am I? Why am I here? Is there nothing more? Why do bad things happen to good people? What happens to me when I die? And in general it is a mark of refinement to speak of such questions and the answers people find for them with a certain respectful professionalism and to qualilfy statements like "There is no God" in the form of an opinion rather than a stated fact. I'm reasonably sure you don't have solid proof to drop the "I think" or "it seems to me" from what you're telling us.

And lest we forget, certainly wars and crimes have been spawned by members of religions. But also the Tribunal of Revolutionary France sought to wipe out religion through prison, forced labour, and executions. If you think athiesm is the answer to stop men from killing each other, you are dead wrong. Men kill each other because they think certain ideas or goals are more important than a human life, so they take the life to achieve the goal and perpetuate the idea. The Khemer Rouge bloodbath should convince you that without religion to fight over, the human race is very resouceful in discovering skin tones, languages, economic boundaries and limited resources to fight over.

If religion is THE truth about God, then of the world's several hundred beliefs, the vast majority of them are, by definition, wrong. Any member of most any religion will tell you that the vast majority of religions in the world are false ones. So I would be tempted to agree with you about religion TO A CERTAIN DEGREE. It's the "every last one" bit that I vehemently deny. That is not something that can be known by human beings in the 21st century. And even if you could prove that every existing religion in the world were wrong, that does not prove that there's not A God/Some Gods out there that could be worshipped correctly.

Please keep an open mind, observe carefully, listen to the small, still voice inside you. The one thing I can say for sure about Athiesm is that there is no mighty Non-God out there that will cast you into some sort of Hell for exploring the world's religions.

Mello

07-11-2008, 11:47 AM

And you assume that I haven't done research on other religions? I have. And like I stated before, they are all merely created by man for the sole purpose in controlling the masses. But, that's just religion.

When you get to the worship of a God or God-like figure, I often ask myself, how is this any different then having an imaginary friend? It's not any different. It's the same.

Copperfox

07-11-2008, 11:51 AM

What makes this God more real?

Throughout history, men have been willing to sacrifice their lives for their belief in a particular deity. However, with ONLY ONE exception, the truth-claims for which men willingly died were things NOT subject (at least at the time) to evidentiary proof. A worshipper of Thor in ancient times, for example, might let himself be killed by worshippers of Zeus rather than forsake Thor; but the Thor-worshipper could go to his death still confident that Thor was real and would reward him, because the Zeus-worshippers could not present him with any material proof that thunder was caused by Zeus and not by Thor.

But there was ONE time in the ancient world when men following a particular deity faced the life-and-death decision of standing for a truth-claim which WAS subject to evidentiary proof THEN AND THERE in the immediate circumstances. The Apostles of Jesus did not face death because of a remote and unprovable controversy over where thunder came from; they faced death over their very specific and objective claim that the crucified Jesus Christ had gotten up and physically walked out of His tomb in His own previously-dead body on His own two feet. This was NOT a claim they had been prepared to make at the time He was buried; at that time, their great concern was lying low and trying not to attract attention. But not very long AFTER their Master's death, these same intimidated men were doing the exact opposite: BOLDLY announcing that Jesus was alive again.

Everything in their religious upbringing, PLUS everything about their current situation, weighed AGAINST the Apostles falsely making up such a claim; if they were lying, they KNEW they could not expect any positive reward for it in this world or any other world, and if there were any doubt, they had no reason to invite trouble by jumping to an unsupported conclusion. But they made the claim, complete with detailed testimony of Jesus coming and speaking to them. They would not back down from this claim even when threatened with death; and again, if it were made up, they would KNOW it was made up, unlike the Thor-worshipper who would be following a tradition. So the Apostles had exactly ZERO motive to die for an imaginary Resurrection story....but every reason to die for the REAL one.

Jersey, a man named Josh McDowell was once as grimly set against Christianity as you are. He set out on a historical research project intending to prove that the Bible was a fairy tale; and I suspect he did at LEAST as much research as you ever did. But as he worked, THE EVIDENCE ITSELF--against his full, fighting, bitterly resentful resistance--changed his mind, and convinced him that the Bible was true after all. This led to his writing a number of books in defense of the Christian faith, of which perhaps the most digestible is "More Than A Carpenter." I recommend it.

As Mr. Lewis has said, it is not that Christianity stumbles over awkward facts; rather, Christianity itself IS one of the "awkward facts" over which WE can't help stumbling.

Mello

07-11-2008, 11:54 AM

Yes, well, that's like me saying The Jersey Devil 100% percent exists because I saw some odd footprints and a torn up carcass a few feet away. :|

Copperfox

07-11-2008, 11:59 AM

No, it is not the same, and YOU KNOW it is not the same. In your hypothetical example, you would not be reporting an actual conversation with the Jersey Devil, and reporting it to a hostile audience that was prepared to kill you dead for making the claim.

There could be several possible reasons why you are so desperately stretching for glib and facile ways to dismiss a substantial argument which you don't want to hear, and perhaps it is not your fault that something has led you to do this. But unless you are very far gone in intellectual decay, you know as well as I do that this IS what you are doing.

And I would STILL push you out of the way of an onrushing truck, because refuting nonsense does not equal hating the speaker of it.

EveningStar

07-11-2008, 12:02 PM

I won't gently hint it anymore, I'll come out and say it. You can say what you believe or don't believe, and you can go on till the cows come home about why, but posts that just say "I'm right and you're wrong" are extremely irritating and strongly discouraged.

Specifically, what were you looking for in a religion that would have said to you, "This is the place?" And which religions did you study? Did people you asked take the time to politely and fully answer your questions? Have you always felt this way? Those kind of remarks mean a WHOLE lot more to us than "Because it's so." We already know WHAT you believe, but the question you've never addressed is WHY.

We won't shout and we won't laugh. Just please show respect for others by speaking about why you think you're right, not why you think others are wrong. And yes, that is possible and even rather simple to do.

Elentari

07-11-2008, 12:04 PM

Jersey, have you ever heard of multiple people--as in millions--having the EXACT SAME imaginary friend? I will agree that "organized religion" can and is used to manipulate people. The sad thing is that it can and does turn people away from seeking for Truth. I am thrilled that you have taken the time to research other religions, but if your conclusion is that
they are all merely created by man for the sole purpose in controlling the masses.
then I have to question your intentions and your openness to perhaps not being right. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but it is possible to be wrong.

Everything in their religious upbringing, PLUS everything about their current situation, weighed AGAINST the Apostles falsely making up such a claim; if they were lying, they KNEW they could not expect any positive reward for it in this world or any other world, and if there were any doubt, they had no reason to invite trouble by jumping to an unsupported conclusion. But they made the claim, complete with detailed testimony of Jesus coming and speaking to them. They would not back down from this claim even when threatened with death; and again, if it were made up, they would KNOW it was made up, unlike the Thor-worshipper who would be following a tradition. So the Apostles had exactly ZERO motive to die for an imaginary Resurrection story....but every reason to die for the REAL one.
It says in Acts that one of the Pharisees (Gamaliel) stood up in front of his fellows and said that if these men were following after a man, "Christianity" would eventually die off when they did. However, if Jesus was truly the Son of God then it would be futile for them to fight against the disciples for they would indeed be fighting against God Himself. (Acts 5:34-42)

Mello

07-11-2008, 12:38 PM

EveningStar

07-11-2008, 01:10 PM

In other words it was the difficulty you had reconciling traditional religious views with the findings of mainstream science. I realize that they are usually stated as "either/or" and that different denominations of Christianity see more and less difference between the religious view (why) and the scientific view (how). Some go as far as saying the religious view is only the reason why, whilst the scientific view is only the reason how, and fit the two together into one seamless "Truth" with a Capital T.

Of course you realize if you were a time traveller and you had a matter/antimatter containment leak and had to ditch your timecraft on a planet where the people could understand you (because of your universal translator) but lived like cavemen, that your explanation of who you are, how you got there, and why you mean no harm might come out something like this...

"I became ill in my house among the stars and I slipped and fell to earth. I need friends to help me find a place for myself since my house is ruined and I cannot return."

Which would be true, but sound like a child's bedtime story.

I believe God told us the truth, and he didn't lie to us. However I believe that Genesis sounds extremely like "I became ill in my house among the stars." The staggering truth of how to go from the leptonic suspension to discrete matter using the aufbau principle might be a bit much for Abraham and Sarah.

What could God do? "Something I call atomic energy that you don't understand was the result of a quantum singularity that you don't understand and...though you and hundreds of your descendents will die never knowing, one day someone will log onto something called a forum and say, 'Gee, it was just like he said!'"

I think not.

The purpose of Judiasm was to tell people that they exist for a reason, that they suffer because things are not the ideal way they will be someday, and that the death of the body is not the end of existance. There are other details, yes, but basically it's God saying, "Don't panic!" and "No, I haven't forgotten."

One can do that without resorting to scientifically rigorous explanations. One can tell that to a six month old baby by picking her up and cradling her gently. Religion is not meant to educate as much as to reassure and counsel.

As a lapsed Catholic you would really appreciate Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, who helped discover Peking Man and was a Jesuit priest.

See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Teilhard_de_Chardin

Yes, a Catholic and a Jesuit and he believed in evolution and considered himself a devout Christian.

That's something else for you to add to your researching. And to be quite honest, I don't want to be RIGHT, I want to make sure I've told you the source of my joy and comfort rather than hiding it from you. At least read the article. It's not biased for or against. It just exposes you to a new experience.

John

Copperfox

07-11-2008, 01:20 PM

Jersey, there are numerous diverse and sincere faith-approaches to the detailed content of the Bible, but all of them are closer in spirit to each other than any of them is remotely like the approach of closing your eyes and blazing away with a pump shotgun at any and every notion of faith.

Meanwhile, your silence is deafening with regard to my earlier post about the Resurrection of Jesus. (Note that, as even the Monty Python troupe recognized, mere automatic contradiction of the other party is not valid argument.)

Elentari

07-11-2008, 01:33 PM

Fine.

I was raised a Roman Catholic. In time it became quite clear to me that I was no way fit to follow this religion. After all, as a young child I studied dinosaurs and the evolution of mankind.

I'll never forgot being forced to going to Sunday School and being taught about Adam and Eve. Being the way that I am, I questioned the teacher. Stating, how could the animals of modern times and man be the first beings on this planet when dinosaurs and creatures EVEN before them were here first?

I then realized, at the age of 13, having discovered what Atheism is was what I truly was. Luckily, I was able to go to a public school for my high school years, taking many courses in literature, science, and history.

So as a young child you studied dinosaurs and evolution--this tells me you were interested in complexities of life and scientific studies, yes? Yet your study of these subjects disconnected you from the religious affiliation of your family, which did not support those topics of study, so you felt seperated and you had to choose between them. This actually makes lots of sense to me since I had friends in HS who struggled with similar things dealing with the Roman Catholic church. You felt forced to attend a church you did not agree with (or that did not agree with you). As a teacher, I am THRILLED that you questioned your teachers, yet from your post I gathered that 1. they did not appreciate it, and/or 2. you did not agree with/appreciate their answers, or 3. they couldn't answer which told you they didn't know or didn't care. Am I close? Actually, there is a fairly simple answer to the question, Jersey, but I won't irritate you by going there. I will simply say that I believe we had very similar educational experiences (some form of Christian education and also public education), but the difference is I see you as looking at religion through the lens of the scientific, while I look at the scientific through the lens of my belief. I studies dinosaurs and evolution too, though probably not as young as you. Because I believe the Bible to be God's Word and therefore Truth, I know that God created the world in 6 days and evolution as a theory of the development of man is false, based not only on what I read but on what I see. 4 years of HS and 4 years of liberal arts education has not demonstrated to me otherwise. As for dinosaurs, I am open to them existing at some point (there seems to be lots of fossil evidence), but they did not exist for more than a day or 2 before God created Man.

I will leave any further theological discussion to those with more wisdom than I since I know I cannot change your opinion, I can just let you know mine.

Mello

07-11-2008, 01:52 PM

Actually, my parents supported me in my studies of evolution and ancient life. It was within my readings of such subjects that (in my opinion) how absurd religion was.

During my years in high school, I had an English teacher and of course a Science teacher who supported me as well. One of my most cherished memories was going to the Museum of Natural History in New York City.

There they were featuring the fossilized remains of 'Lucy', which was amazing.

In the end, nothing negative in my life made me become an Atheist, I openly chose it. I was never meant for religion, or is it religion was never meant for me? Who knows.

Solya

07-11-2008, 01:53 PM

Wow, I had written a very tiny post for this topic a few hours ago but couldn't post it due to my laptop acting up a little. Now that I'm back, I see a whole discussion has been started. I won't comment on it yet, because I feel it would take up too much time and I have nothing to add other than the fact that I agree with our dear EveningStar. :o I will, however, grace you with the post I had originally intended to appear in this topic...

There's also the use of the term 'Christian' as an excuse for outright prejudice and misconduct towards others of the non-Christian belief systems, which I notice a lot of people struggling with. These people who call themselves Christians do not act according to the teachings Jesus gave us, but yet they're on the forefront of the 'battlefield' most of the time and ensure that people often see Christianity as a religion with old rules whose members act out of hatred and show nothing but closed minds.

I personally don't even like to assume the title 'Christian' because of the negative connotations it had for me in the past. I feel that 'follower of Christ' would be better suited, because I try to follow Jesus's teachings in the best way possible and act according to those. It's also to do with the fact that I have not really found a good church yet, though... I love to visit the Roman Catholic churches, but I think I disagree with a lot of things from the Church of Rome at the same time. Everything the term 'Christian' has ever meant for me is related to it, and I don't want to walk back into the fold I left years ago. So, yeah, still searching something over here...

Copperfox

07-11-2008, 02:02 PM

Solya, what you say is partly true, but in part you are probably a victim of revisionist history. Fanatical haters of God have spent more than two centuries trying to alter the actual facts of history, to deny Christianity credit for true accomplishments while maliciously exaggerating its faults.

For example, college professors will endlessly hammer away at condemning the Crusades--but try to conceal or minimize the CONCRETE FACT that not one Crusade would ever have happened at all if MUSLIM nations had not FIRST spent whole generations waging wars of conquest, including the forcible conquest of large portions of Europe. And professors want to deny Christians any credit for social-justice advancements; therefore they tend not to admit the fact that, for example, the women's-equality pioneer Susan B. Anthony was a Christian, and that it was Christian preacher William Garrison who prodded Abraham Lincoln to quit stalling and issue the Emancipation Proclamation.

Solya

07-11-2008, 02:18 PM

Yeap, I think that is exactly what happened here. :rolleyes: I have some pretty negative personal experiences going on where the Roman Catholic Church is concerned, but I try to not let those affect me to the degree of me not liking the tradition itself anymore. The thing is... I love the saints, and angels, and the whole thing about Mother Mary, etc... but I find little comfort in the churches around here... :rolleyes: Or maybe, I just need to get used to it again after years of doing my own rituals.

EveningStar

07-11-2008, 02:21 PM

Christ showed us what we ought to be but could not be. Then before we could despair, he told us to do our utmost, and his grace would fill in the difference.

Justification through Grace does not mean paying off our whole debt. It means paying the part of the debt we default upon.

If we owed God $100 and we had $90, Jesus would take our $90 and only kick in $10. He works to make our best good enough.

Given that, it's hardly surprising that few Christians practice what they preach. In fact, none of them fully do. Jesus himself said so, and for me that pretty much cinches it.

John

Mello

07-11-2008, 04:40 PM

There isn't a painful reason why I left Christianity. I did it because I felt it was the right thing for me to do.

I enjoy being an Atheist and I'm proud to be one. I don't believe in an after life, the idea of ceasing to exist does not frighten me. Instead, I embrace it.

inkspot

07-11-2008, 04:56 PM

Sorry about my previous post, which I have now eliminated -- I hadn't read all the way through the thread!

Jersey, honey, you worry me, really you do, when you say things like that. Don't you know that indiacting you welcome death is not a healthy attitude? If there's every, any way, really, I can help ... I don't know ... But PM me, or I sent you my email, too. Life's not so bad, sweetie, really it's not.

Mello

07-11-2008, 05:26 PM

I never stated my life was bad. The fact that I'm interested in Death shouldn't really matter to anyone.

Not only am I into prehistory and evolution, but I enjoy researching and reading up on known serial killers. Why? Simple, I find it interesting that certain people are inclined to murder, while others are not.

I'm also recently reading up on The Four Horsemen, as well as going to research New Jersey Devil sightings in my area.

Copperfox

07-11-2008, 06:34 PM

>> ...because I felt it was the right thing for me to do.

If you deny the existence of any transcendent moral standard, then "the right thing" does not have, cannot have, and never will have any greater or other meaning than "I felt like it." Which, of course, is the core motivation of all those "interesting" serial murderers also. They killed because they felt like it--and because they intentionally chose to MAKE themselves believe that they would never have to answer for their crimes. Take away their ability to kill, and regardless of the boastful show they put on, they are worms, deserving only contempt.

EveningStar

07-11-2008, 06:52 PM

Let's try to bring a positive spin to this thread, shall we? After all the word "Gospel" is usually translated "Good news!"

Without a spiritual realm, "beauty" is only a series of sensations that causes units to move toward or linger about the stimulus. Without a spiritual realm, "ugliness" is only a series of sensations that causes units to move away or avoid the stimulus. In other words, the gut wrenching beauty of Debussy's "Clair de Lune" is just a very complex, multi-layered coordinated continuum of affective agents which, like sex, hunger, and fatigue, make certain outcomes more likely than others through neurochemical mediation. And that would include, Jersey dear, your art, my stories, the grief I feel for my lost son, the sunset, and Chopin's Etude in D Major.

Do you really feel comfortable with that? I, for one, do not.

You may not feel comfortable with a traditional religious explanation of the meaning of life. But you have even spurned the non-traditional one, stripping your existance of all significance above and beyond biochemistry which was, itself, a highly implausable order to expect from a universe without a prime mover.

You underrate the miracle that is you. I've never met an athiest yet that didn't say he/she hated being felt sorry for, but I can't help it. I hurt for you.

John

Copperfox

07-11-2008, 06:58 PM

And if I ever actually had occasion to push Jersey out of the way of an onrushing truck, my satisfaction in saving her life would have nothing to do with a mental exercise in calculating the relationship between the impetus of my forward pushing motion and the resistance of Jersey's body based on my mass compared with hers and her vector of motion just before I pushed her.

Mello

07-11-2008, 08:35 PM

Here we go with the pushing me out of harms way....

How would you even know it's me?

Copperfox

07-11-2008, 08:43 PM

The "you" is a for-instance, because you happen to be the one claiming that kindness to others is foolish or pointless. No matter how frantically you try to make it not be true by the sheer force of your will, you can't even put a dent in the fact that God made us all, and He made us with an intrinsic value that we should respect in each other.

EveningStar

07-11-2008, 08:47 PM

He wouldn't know it was you. He wouldn't push someone out of the way of a car because it happened to be you, or to win an arguement. I know Joe quite well. He'd feel pity for a stranger and go for it.

There is a great good out there. I call it God. Whatever it is, a bit of it lives in us and wakens within us a certain desire to protect, to nurture, to pity. Joe knows about life and death. He's faced both with courage. I have too, and yes, it does involve saving a life at peril to my own. And no, I'm not bragging about it. Just saying that I'm not speaking hypothetically when I talk of Joe or I being willing to shove you out of the way of harm.

Mello

07-11-2008, 10:58 PM

Well, I know I don't want anyone's pity.

Copperfox

07-11-2008, 11:25 PM

That's okay, Jersey! Pity is a sort of double-edged soft-plastic sword; it doesn't always get the best result. Pity, without wisdom, fails to complete a painful but needed series of medical treatments, or allows an alcoholic to take "just one more drink," or allows a 13-year-old boy to "have his freedom" running with 19-year-olds who turn out to be gang members. I have, or rather you-know-Who has, a superior substitute for pity: GRACE AND TRUTH.

Did you know that Friedrich Nietzsche was physically very frail? I'm convinced that he was always trying to compensate for his bodily shortcomings by flexing his philosophical biceps, showing off how tough-minded he professed to be by scorning love and hope. I don't know what you're compensating for by showing off how tough you are, but I know that you don't need a defense mechanism against us. The nearest thing we have to hostility toward you is a hostility against MISTAKEN IDEAS, from which many of us have also been liberated, so that we know just how venomous they are. No pity? That works. But what also works is an accurate prognosis: bitterness of soul, and a resentment of the very One Who gave you every positive attribute you have, WILL KILL YOU if they are not eventually dealt with somehow, and this death will not be nearly so cool as you might think.

You're allowed to be vulnerable here. Everybody is. Will it make you look down your nose at me if I say that I wept for the passing of each of my two wives in turn? Rhetorical question, I don't really care squat if you look down your nose at me, but I mention my grief because NO ONE ELSE HERE thinks it weakness to love and cherish others.

As I said some while back, Jersey, it still is not too late for you to come in out of the cold.

bruiser

07-11-2008, 11:43 PM

It's never too late for _anyone_ to come out of the cold, until that is the day that you die.

Copperfox

07-11-2008, 11:46 PM

That's my girl, Amanda! Jersey, Amanda/Bruiser knows a LOT for someone her age about strength and weakness, pain and relief. When she talks faith, it is NOT merely an ignorant child parrotting back rote lessons; she bears witness to God as He has shown mercy to her in real life.

Mello

07-11-2008, 11:48 PM

I'll be an Atheist until the day I die. I can assure you of that.

And I bid all of you a farewell. I shan't return.

Elentari

07-11-2008, 11:52 PM

I will look forward to seeing you in Heaven Jersey! :D

Copperfox

07-11-2008, 11:59 PM

>> I shan't return.

Translation: she knows that none of her arguments can hold water for five seconds, and doesn't want to admit it. Lord God, You love her just as You loved me when I went through a period of being somewhat snooty toward believers; please let her have no rest in the poisonous embrace of nonsense....

bruiser

07-12-2008, 12:06 AM

I'll be an Atheist until the day I die. I can assure you of that.

And I bid all of you a farewell. I shan't return.

I told you Jersey, that I didn't pity you.

Now I take that back, I do pity you my dear. Everyone has insecurities about _any_ religion. That's why it is called faith. People just need some faith to believe, I lacked faith, and still kinda do to a certain amount. It just seems that you have _no_ faith at all. Not in a religion, nor in humanity. That's why I pity you.

Fare thee well, dear. I hope one day we will be able to laugh about this in Aslan's country.

Mello

07-12-2008, 12:07 AM

And is exactly the reason why I don't like Christianity. Everything else is wrong in a Christians eye, save for their own believes.

"Of all religions the Christian is without doubt the one which should inspire tolerance most, although up to now the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men." - Voltaire

bruiser

07-12-2008, 12:13 AM

I personally think that I tolerate more than I should. I mean, I tolerated all of your smart comebacks when I said anything to you without jumping down your throat. I tolerate people who are way different than me. I have friends from every range of religion, color, thoughts, cliques, everything. So I don't think that your accusation of me being non-tolerant is adquate. Some other people, maybe, but that is not for you or I to judge.

Mello

07-12-2008, 12:15 AM

Actually, I wasn't referring to you in general. I was referring to Christianity as a whole. :D

Elentari

07-12-2008, 12:19 AM

Jersey, this is entirely off the subject, but since you are still posting... :)

I was born in South Jersey, though I have not lived there in 13 years--Are you familiar with Vineland?

Mello

07-12-2008, 12:23 AM

Yes...

and I really don't want to get off topic here..

bruiser

07-12-2008, 12:23 AM

Actually, I wasn't referring to you in general. I was referring to Christianity as a whole. :D

oops. ^^ Well I was kinda caught up in the moment and the post was right below mine. :o My B.

:p

Mello

07-12-2008, 12:33 AM

*shrugs* Means little difference to me. Isn't your fault.

Elentari

07-12-2008, 12:39 AM

I was just curious, Jersey, I wasn't intending on taking it further, as it has no bearing on the conversation. :D

Everything else is wrong in a Christians eye, save for their own believes.

I don't want to stomp on your toes, Jersey, but this isn't limited to Christians. It's logic. But even it were just Christian, for the sake of your argument, let me put it this way. If I am taking a multiple choice test (and I do not see "all correct", "none correct", or "a and b correct" or other combo), would I not be LOGICAL in concluding--thanks to my education with an un-do focus on filling in standardized test dots--that there is only ONE CORRECT ANSWER?

Using that same logic, if I believe that I know the correct Answer (in this case, the only way to Heaven=Jesus) wouldn't I necessarily then--LOGICALLY--assess other answers as being false?

bruiser

07-12-2008, 12:42 AM

*shrugs* Means little difference to me. Isn't your fault.

[sigh] Well I didn't wish for things to get bad between us just because of a miscommunication. o.0

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 12:44 AM

Jersey sure is taking a long time getting around to leaving forever. That's okay, it wasn't MY idea for her to leave. But Voltaire's a fine one to be invoking; he smugly predicted that Christianity would soon be eliminated from the world, but he's the one that's dead, and his own former house is now used by a Christian publishing company. Yet perhaps it may be of some comfort to Monsieur Voltaire that one major group of folks took foundational inspiration from him: the Russian Communists, who created a form of materialistic tyranny which (in verifiable fact, NOT opinion) committed more murders in less than a century (around a hundred MILLION) than ALL religions combined have done in the history of the world.

Mello

07-12-2008, 12:47 AM

Well, I like to defend myself. :D

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 12:53 AM

Defend yourself? Jersey, let me remind you of your very first post on this thread:

>> Christianity is simply just another religion. And what are religions
>> good for? Controlling people.

It was you who picked a fight in the first place. I guess you figure the best defense is a good offense. But it remains true that no one here hates you or wishes any harm to befall you. We just don't like to leave nonsense unexposed, for nonsense is a barrel-plugged gun that shoots backwards to hit its own user.

bruiser

07-12-2008, 12:53 AM

He does have a point though. You did say that you were bidding us a farewell forever. o.0 Hey; I ain't going to argue if you change your mind to stay. :D

bruiser

07-12-2008, 12:56 AM

Mello

07-12-2008, 12:58 AM

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 01:00 AM

Now, that IS nonsense. There is nothing more tactful to call it and still be accurate. Giving up on life and hope, when you KNOW there are people who would be your friends if you would let them be, IS nonsense.

bruiser

07-12-2008, 01:05 AM

Oh darn...I really wanted to be disliked too...

And no bruiser, I'm not staying. I have done a lot of thinking today. When I go to bed tonight, and I awaken tomorrow, I will not sign onto here. Hey! If I'm lucky maybe I won't even wake up.

o.0 It takes a _lot_ for me to dislike someone.

Well dang. I was looking forward to hearing from you again. Believe it or not, you will be missed.

hehe. I hope that you wake up in the morning. :p If to do nothing but breath in some good God-given air.

Mello

07-12-2008, 01:06 AM

I seriously doubt I will be missed. Seriously.

Hylian Princess

07-12-2008, 01:10 AM

Oh darn...I really wanted to be disliked too...

And no bruiser, I'm not staying. I have done a lot of thinking today. When I go to bed tonight, and I awaken tomorrow, I will not sign onto here. Hey! If I'm lucky maybe I won't even wake up.

I tend to stay out of these debates..Im not good at expressing my thoughts :o ....but I just wanted to say I really am truly sorry that you feel that way. It makes me sad that you feel so negatively :(

QA48

07-12-2008, 01:11 AM

It seems like you want to be pitied, JG.

Anyways, let me know how's the weather in NJ when you wake up in the morning. I'm still waiting for a good debate from both sides. (Though the Dull side have won the first round. I'm still waiting for more from the Brights*)

*Reference to the Loser Letters by Mary Eberstadt

bruiser

07-12-2008, 01:13 AM

I seriously doubt I will be missed. Seriously.

Yeah well. I'll miss you. Seriously. Even though things between us were a little sketchy. XD

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 01:13 AM

Your seriousness, Jersey, deserves the dignity of a responding seriousness. Your picking a fight yourself, which you know you did, and then pleading self-defense, won't be missed; but the healthier person you could so easily choose to be if you weren't so interested in being bitter--she is already sadly missed. God Himself is unhappy about THAT Jersey's absence...and I don't think He has totally resigned Himself to it yet either.

Mello

07-12-2008, 01:21 AM

And how would you know how your God feels? You're merely implying your feelings to your God.

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 01:25 AM

Actually, He has communicated His feelings to me and to others, albeit in ways which you would choose to dismiss in advance without even giving them a hearing. (And His communication has _changed_ various feelings of mine in ways that they would never have changed on their own.)

I notice that you aren't denying that you picked the fight, since you can't deny it.

bruiser

07-12-2008, 01:26 AM

Point taken. _But_ you can better your understanding about what God would think about something by reading the Bible.

Papa Joe beat me in posting. XD
I agree with his above post also.

Llama-Llama-Duck

07-12-2008, 01:26 AM

And how would you know how your God feels? You're merely implying your feelings to your God.

There are pages and pages of how he feels in the Bible.

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 01:29 AM

And the veracity of the Bible is something men have sacrificed their lives for, under such circumstances that there WAS NOT AND COULD NOT BE any possible motivation for them to make the sacrifice unless they had experienced something substantial to convince them of their position. I already explained this to Jersey, and got no adequate answer from her.

Mello

07-12-2008, 01:29 AM

There are pages and pages of how he feels in the Bible.

Which was written by Man, who conveyed their own feelings in it.

And to you Copperfox, fine, I picked a fight. I meant it as a debate, but as always it's difficult to debate with Christians. But if you want to see it as picking a fight, then so be it Copperfox.

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 01:32 AM

No, Jersey, you don't get away with projecting on me. "Debate" would be something like: "I believe that supernatural beliefs are used for political reasons, to control a subject population." But the loaded wording you set out with WAS picking a fight; that's not me wanting to see it that way, it's what you did.

Llama-Llama-Duck

07-12-2008, 01:32 AM

Which was written by Man, who conveyed their own feelings in it.

And to you Copperfox, fine, I picked a fight. I meant it as a debate, but as always it's difficult to debate with Christians. But if you want to see it as picking a fight, then so be it Copperfox.
In Christianity, we believe that the words were inspired by God. He uses man to impliment his word.

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 01:40 AM

If Jersey is like scores of other naysayers I've met, the real reason she finds it "difficult to debate with Christians" is because her idea of a fair debate is that she is already declared the winner before a word is said. This makes it monstrously unfair in the naysayer's mind for our side to say anything other than conceding defeat.

Mello

07-12-2008, 01:41 AM

I'm sorry, Copperfox.

Llama-Llama-Duck

07-12-2008, 01:43 AM

To be fair, I'm a bit closed-minded, too. Of course she's going to think strongly and stubbornly on what she thinks, like we all do, but we need to gently explain our cause. ;)

bruiser

07-12-2008, 01:46 AM

Of course she's going to think strongly and stubbornly on what she thinks, like we all do, but we need to gently explain our cause. ;)

I couldn't of said it better myself.

Mello

07-12-2008, 01:58 AM

Well, I give up. I'm sure all of you are thrilled beyond all words now.

bruiser

07-12-2008, 02:02 AM

Well, I give up. I'm sure all of you are thrilled beyond all words now.

Accually, I dislike the fact that you give up so easily. How will you be able to support your thoughts while you are away?

Mello

07-12-2008, 02:06 AM

Doesn't matter anymore. My life doesn't matter anymore. Goodnight and Goodbye all.

bruiser

07-12-2008, 02:10 AM

Good night Jersey. You _will_ be missed, and you do matter as does everyone. Hope to be seeing you later.

bruiser

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 10:16 AM

Jersey, in case your latest goodbye proves as short-lived as the one before it, I'll ask you to remember that the very way you came to the attention of many of us WAS with the issue of whether your life mattered. We kept trying to tell you that your life, each life, DOES matter. If you do go off sulking, it is NOT because any of us wanted to drive you away. Even if it seemed to you that we were ganging up on you in large numbers, our numbers did not signify hatred of you, any more than large numbers of adult volunteers turning out to search for a lost child are proving their "hatred" for the child! We want lost children like you to be "found"--not abused!

Solya

07-12-2008, 11:51 AM

Dear Jersey, I hope to see you return one day. I, too, sometimes have days on which it all becomes too much and I just need to have a break from the intense discussions. When I first came here, I was totally bowled off-balance by the wonderful people here. A discussion turned into a conversion for me, in the end, but that is not what the people on this board set out to do. They just talked with me and provided a safe place to vent my feelings and thoughts about Christianity. The fact that you are currently on the point of giving up and saying goodbye makes me hopeful, because the very same thing happened to me a few weeks or months after my first arrival here.

I wish you well, with whatever path you choose, and hope to see you again one day. :)

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 06:39 PM

It never ceases to be encouraging to remember that a certain Clive Staples Lewis fought savagely and frantically AGAINST being led to faith in Jesus, but we all know how that turned out. Sort of like a happier version of the old pop song "I Fought the Law, and the Law Won."

Mello

07-12-2008, 08:15 PM

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 08:48 PM

No doubt it is; but the Devil, who laughs at your skepticism and eagerly hopes to correct your opinions HIS way when you die, is much MORE annoyed than you are at the thought of you receiving the truth. As for your own annoyance: only to be expected. Medicine that can save your life does not necessarily taste good going down.

Mello

07-12-2008, 09:05 PM

Makes little difference to me. I don't believe in an after life. For me after this life, there is nothing.

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 09:15 PM

Most people in car crashes don't believe in the imminence of the crash either. Our opinions do not create or nullify reality. I understood this much even before I came to know Jesus, and I did NOT become a believer without encountering EXTERNALLY REAL evidence which I could know I had not made up in my own head. Just like Josh McDowell. You, meanwhile, are still not really debating, only stubbornly contradicting.

Mello

07-12-2008, 09:25 PM

However, they are my believes. And they shall stay that way until I die.

Elentari

07-12-2008, 09:38 PM

If there is no afterlife, what is the meaning and purpose to existence?

(I'm not exactly asking anyone particular this question, this is just a question I remember asking myself when I was in high school and college, listening to classmates and friends discuss their beliefs.)

If there is no life after death, then what is the purpose of the great size and beauty of the universe or the size of a grain of sand or the existence of men? If there is no creator, then why is the world such a detailed place? What does it matter that no sunset or sunrise is the same as another, or snowflakes for that matter. Why are their more grains of sand or stars in the sky than can be numbered? What is the purpose of it all, if Man just lives, doing whatever it is they do until they die?

This has been the question that leads me back to God again and again. If God is real, then this life has purpose because we are eternal beings. I was thinking about this thread all day today simply because I spent most of it outside. I live in a rather rural area, so I am surrounded by fields of corn, green hills, huge trees, and gorgeous bluish-green mountains. When I am outside, or at my parents' (who live at the beach :D), or simply sitting in sunshine or watching the rain :) I cannot help but feel deep down inside the glorious PURPOSE of life. Lately especially, as I am at a place in my life where God is teaching me about living a life at rest so I can be more aware of what is around me, the world I see causes my heart to ache with the Beauty of God. I'm noticing the little details in the grass and flowers, how every sunset (and sunrise, though I don't see many of those ;)) is unique, and how the thunder of a thunderstorm and the break of a wave on the beach both remind me of how incredibly powerful and awesome my Father, God, the Creator of it ALL, truly IS. Creation itself is truly awe-inspiring and, if you listen, the rocks truly do cry out in praise of the Creator.

Mello

07-12-2008, 09:44 PM

And what would the afterlife be then? For all you know is that Heaven will be a place where all you do is sit around and stare blankly into space. And Hell could look just like the world we see now.

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 10:03 PM

Congratulations, Jersey, at least now you're doing a little bit of reasoning. The idea of Heaven being dull and boring has occurred to many minds. It's understandable in a way; but those who hold this view have failed to grasp something.

Assuming for sake of discussion that Heaven is real, then all who live there will be living in the immediate, visible and interactive presence of the Power that INVENTED life, intelligence, love, beauty, friendship, music, pleasure, logic, knowledge, colors, flavors, aromas, languages, and happiness. This Power just MIGHT be able to come up with something to make Heaven interesting.

BarbarianKing

07-12-2008, 10:05 PM

I'll be an Atheist until the day I die. I can assure you of that.

Most atheists are. The second after they cross the threshold, (which you don't believe in, I know), they go "oh, oh!" And they stop being atheists a second too late.

Makes little difference to me. I don't believe in an after life. For me after this life, there is nothing.

However, they are my believes. And they shall stay that way until I die.

In the meantime the God I believe in keeps on loving you in a way you could never imagine. But I can!

Mello

07-12-2008, 10:11 PM

And would you know how an Atheist would react to realizing after death, that Heaven and Hell actually existed?

fernshirehobbit

07-12-2008, 10:14 PM

probably with grief akin to severe pain...and he would probably wish that he had spent less time trying to be "analitical and smart". thats just me two cents anyways...

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 10:14 PM

Jersey, it does not require ANY courage, or integrity, or wisdom, or insight, or moral fiber, to persist in stubborn denial; all it requires is the stubborn denial, which any three-year-old is capable of. You were showing more intelligence and strength in your post before last, merely by doing even the slightest bit of actual DISCUSSION (raising the "boring Heaven" issue), than in all your mere denials otherwise.

Perhaps this question will help things: if you knew that you WERE in fact going to exist forever after death, but you were offered the chance to request what conditions you would like to exist IN, what would you request?

Elentari

07-12-2008, 10:14 PM

And what would the afterlife be then? For all you know is that Heaven will be a place where all you do is sit around and stare blankly into space. And Hell could look just like the world we see now.

True Beauty cannot exist without its Creator because it is an extension of Himself. Since Christians believe Heaven to be perfection, the beauty HERE--which I've mentioned--is BLAND compared to the Beauty of the eternal. My heart aches at the beauty here because I KNOW that Heaven is MORE and I cannot comprehend it.

Lewis described Aslan's Country as being bigger and more vivid. The food tasted better than the best you'd ever had on earth. The colors were "more real". It is impossible to feel tired or sad. His description of it in The Last Battle is possibly the best description of a Heaven I've ever heard, though it is fiction. The part to remember though is that as interested in what was around them as the Friends were, there goal was to be near to Aslan. Once they stood in His presence, nothing else could grab their attention from Him. None of us--Christian or no--could sit and stare into space when in the presence of Jesus. We would be either on our faces in awe or running to Him, and like Lucy with Aslan, wanting nothing more than to be in His glorious presence.

And in Hell, whatever it may look like, I can guarantee that NOBODY, even the worst criminal in the history of the world, will be running TOWARDS Satan. They will be running away in terror and discovering that no matter how hard they run they aren't really moving at all (like running on one of those moving paths at the airport only faster).

BarbarianKing

07-12-2008, 10:23 PM

And would you know how an Atheist would react to realizing after death, that Heaven and Hell actually existed?
You're the atheist. Tell me how would you react upon realizing that a second too late?

Mello

07-12-2008, 10:29 PM

I pondered the idea of an 'empty' Heaven and a Hell much like the world we already live in from reading the Johnny the Homicidal Maniac comic books. In which, the main character Johnny dies and he arrives at Heaven (there was a mix up, as he was intended to go to Hell). In Heaven everyone sits on chairs, just staring.

Finally, the mix up is cleared up and Johnny goes to Hell, where he meets Señor Diablo/Satan.

Quoted from Wikipedia:

'Señor Diablo is the name given to the Devil in the JTHM comic. Señor Diablo represents Johnny's understanding of evil. This understanding includes lack of caring for other people and how they feel about life. In the JTHM hell Johnny sees a perfect example of a world of torture and pain which is a replication of the world that already exists, where the slightest upset to the inhabitants' routines makes them go mad.'

Soon, Johnny returns to Earth, even more demented then he already was and continues his murdering ways.

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 10:40 PM

Barbarian King, I request that you not press Jersey on your latest question just now. It seems to me that she is edging gradually toward something like a coherent answer to mine.

Again, Jersey, if non-existence were not an option on the menu, but you could file a request for what kind of afterlife you preferred, what do you imagine you would find the most bearable and the least boring?

BarbarianKing

07-12-2008, 10:40 PM

That does not really answer the question so let me rephrase it:
How would you react upon realizing that there is a God, as Christians believed in, a second too late?
And add:
And that He really loved you more than anyone had ever loved you before?

If I was an atheist, I'll tell you how I would react: I would cry in despair, with unimaginable sobs, upon realizing that I rejected that glorious love because my puny mind found it illogical that someone like that could exist and I could not find it in my heart to believe it.

bruiser

07-12-2008, 10:40 PM

No, they do want me to convert. And it's getting annoying.

That was what I thought before my coming to God. You can only imagine what I was told by a preacher, who I believe tried to scare me into becoming a Christian. One comment that he made to me, that I probably will never forget, was 'Amanda you _are_ going to Hell.' Not 'if you don't change,' but that I '_was_ going' wither I liked it or not.

Jersey, firstly I would like to welcome you back. :]
Next, the conversion topic, the people who are trying to shove religion down your throat are acting wrong. [Not that they wanting you to become a Christian is wrong, but the fact that they are trying to _force_ you to become one against your will is wrong. The same way I feel about the men that tried to force the Native Americans to become Christians.]

Elentari

07-12-2008, 10:40 PM

Well, I guess that's understandable considering I got my idea of HEAVEN from a combination of Revelation, conversations with my dad (a pastor), and Lewis' descriptions of Aslan's Country in The Last Battle. They don't all fit together completely because, other than knowing that Heaven is where we will live eternally in the very presence of God--and what we can learn from Revelation--though I think those descriptions are more the apostle TRYING to describe the Heaven he sees in words we humans can comprehend, we really don't know what Heaven will be like EXACTLY. (Though we know what it is NOT--sitting in chairs staring for example. That reminds me of Charn in Magician's Nephew.

My thoughts on Beauty--which have had a major impact on how I view Eternity--come not only from Lewis (Narnia) but also from my journaling prayer-conversations, reading of Tolkien (his land of Valinor in the Silmarillion and the way it effected the Elves' view of Middle Earth), and John and Staci Eldridge (the books Captivating[I], [I]Epic, and Waking the Dead particularly.)

Mello

07-12-2008, 10:45 PM

To answer Copperfox: Emptiness.

To answer BarbarianKing: I would simply say: 'Oh well.'

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 10:51 PM

* Sighs *

For a moment, Jersey, I thought you were beginning to do some actual, profitable thinking. But all you can come up with is "Emptiness"? I'll take the FULLNESS of God every time. And in the nearest approach I can make here to the "Affectionate Fighting" game, I will "cruelly attack" you with my continued prayers for you to find something a WHOLE lot better than patting yourself on the back for such brilliant rebuttals as "Oh, well."

bruiser

07-12-2008, 10:53 PM

To answer Copperfox: Emptiness.

To answer BarbarianKing: I would simply say: 'Oh well.'

Ohh dang. Amanda gets no answers, or even comments. :[
just kidding. :D

BarbarianKing

07-12-2008, 10:56 PM

Mello

07-12-2008, 10:59 PM

Elentari

07-12-2008, 11:03 PM

Well I am going to be honest. If I am wrong and Eternity is nothing more than sitting in a chair staring at a wall, completely EMPTY and void of all love, joy, and laughter...I would weep and never stop because my heart cannnot stand emptiness.

And if I was not a Christian and I died and found myself in an eternity I did not believe in, standing at the very throne of God Himself, with Jesus at His right hand, I would fall on my face because I could not BEAR to look into His eyes of Love and see HIM weep for ME as He turned His face away.

For those who view tears as weakness, I view them as a visible reminder that our hearts are not made of stone.

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 11:05 PM

Jersey, quoting that "reign in Hell" saying ONLY proves your ignorance--not only ignorance of eternity, but even ignorance of "Paradise Lost." Only poor-quality English teachers, and their duped students, believe the malarkey that John Milton considered Satan "the real hero." That boast you quote was put in Satan's mouth ONLY to set Satan up for much-deserved humiliation.

Elsewhere in the epic, one of the righteous angels tells Satan:

"Reign thou in Hell, thy kingdom; let me serve
In Heaven God e'er blest, and His divine
Behests obey, worthiest to be obeyed!
But chains in Hell, not realms, expect..."

Elentari

07-12-2008, 11:07 PM

Here's a quote for ya--"There is only ONE Lord of the Rings and HE does NOT share power."--JRR Tolkien.

bruiser

07-12-2008, 11:09 PM

And who's to say that you, Jersey, would be ruleing in Hell?

Mello

07-12-2008, 11:12 PM

Jersey, quoting that "reign in Hell" saying ONLY proves your ignorance--not only ignorance of eternity, but even ignorance of "Paradise Lost." Only poor-quality English teachers, and their duped students, believe the malarkey that John Milton considered Satan "the real hero." That boast you quote was put in Satan's mouth ONLY to set Satan up for much-deserved humiliation.

Well, lucky for me I'm an Atheist and I don't believe in Satan, either. ;)

You might think my negativity towards everything isn't bringing me happiness. In truth, it does everyday.

All of you read about the good of the world(of which there is very little). I read up on the evil and darkness of this world. And I enjoy it.

Elentari

07-12-2008, 11:17 PM

Then why are you here, Jersey? Why are you on a Narnia forum if you prefer reading about evil and darkness?

I am slightly surprised that atheists, since they profess to believe in neither God nor Satan, would be more interested in evil than in good. (I don't know many atheists, most non-Christians I know either don't practice anything and don't have a marked preference or are decidedly involved in one side or the other (good--social work, evil--Wicca, Satanism, witchcraft, etc.)

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 11:17 PM

Jersey, if you really believed that nonsense yourself, you would not get indignant at people here seeming to insult you; instead, as a lover of evil, you would ask them to insult you MORE. A dislike of rudeness (real or perceived) actually is part of our GOD-GIVEN sense of justice and fairness, though our sinful nature distorts this in self-serving ways.

You only prove again that "When you argue against God, you are arguing against the very Power that gave you the ability to argue in the first place." Claiming to enjoy evil, and yet feeling MORAL INDIGNATION when you believe you've been insulted, reveals the untenable absurdity of your position. You are sawing off the tree branch you are sitting on.

Mello

07-12-2008, 11:22 PM

I could honestly careless what others think of me or what they say about me.

And the reason why I come here? It's amusing.

bruiser

07-12-2008, 11:23 PM

haha.

I accually don't read much into the 'good of the world' as you say. [Yesh I read the Bible.] However, the novelists that I find the most amazing are normally very dark mooded [well not them so much but their novels]. I enjoy reading Mr. Poe's works, Stephen King, and others. I'm not really into the darkest of the dark, nor am I into happy-go-lucky things either.
I do think that the world is falling apart as long as we keep treating it the way that we do. Things, if we keep going at a decreasing rate, will get worse. That is something that ought to be bold faced by now.

Elentari

07-12-2008, 11:29 PM

And the reason why I come here? It's amusing.

I didn't ask why you STAY, I asked why you CAME.

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 11:32 PM

Jersey, you know as well as I do that your "amusement" is a feeble attempt to convince yourself that you are smart and sophisticated, instead of miserable. I know it, because before I came to the truth I came near enough to being the same way. You don't fool me for a microsecond, and _realizing_ that I'm not fooled is probably why you get so irritated with me. But as long as you're breathing, it _still_ is not too late for you to prefer love and freedom over the cramped, pitiful dungeon of your pseudo-Nietzschean ego.

Mello

07-12-2008, 11:42 PM

Oh Copperfox, you don't irritate me. Why, I've never had someone make me laugh so much before. :D

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 11:44 PM

Jersey, you have said far too many peevish, grouchy things on this thread for me to be fooled by your claimed "laughter," any more than by your claimed "amusement."

bruiser

07-12-2008, 11:47 PM

Aye.

btw - You never told us the reason why you joined the forum, not that I am complaining or anything, just curious. Yesh; I know that the cat died because of his wondering thoughts.

Would you Jersey, accually enjoy the story that this forum was created because of? Someone as hard-natured as yourself, accually enjoy an enlightening book as so?

Mello

07-12-2008, 11:47 PM

And so what if I am grouchy? Certainly I am allowed to be that way if I so chose it.

bruiser

07-12-2008, 11:50 PM

Anyone is entitled to a bad day, but one elects to lead an unhappy life.

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 11:50 PM

Yes, of course you are allowed to be grouchy. What you CAN'T get away with is being frequently grouchy, and yet at the SAME time pretending that your superior attitude of "amusement" sets you above being grouchy.

Elentari

07-12-2008, 11:53 PM

Is this going somewhere? :confused:

bruiser

07-12-2008, 11:54 PM

Is this going somewhere? :confused:

Truthfully, I doubt it.

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 11:57 PM

Not going anywhere? That's because blindly stubborn contradiction doesn't need to arrive at any articulate, reasoned conclusion. Jersey pretends to be intellectually superior to the rest of us, but in actual fact she knows that she has left numerous points unanswered because she HAS NO answer. All she has is her obstinate denial, which is one hundred percent emotion-based without an intellectual leg to stand on.

Mello

07-12-2008, 11:57 PM

Yea, it's going nowhere. Because, I'll never be converted. I've made a promise to myself to never convert back to Christianity.

And now I'm being called unintelligent. How wonderful. I could go in depth about Evolution, however it's late and I work for a living, so I'm tired.

bruiser

07-12-2008, 11:59 PM

Convert back to? Dear what you went through didn't sound like Christianity to me.

You still haven't answered my question[s].

Copperfox

07-12-2008, 11:59 PM

Jersey, it was merely an emotion-based promise you made. Thank you for doing my job for me, proving that your stand has nothing to do with facts and everything to do with which FEELINGS you choose to indulge.

Elentari

07-12-2008, 11:59 PM

Oh that makes it better, Jersey! In my personal experience, "never" always turned into "okay, so it happened". This is actually encouraging!!! :D

Mello

07-13-2008, 12:05 AM

And oh boy, what feelings would those be Copperfox?

Copperfox

07-13-2008, 12:12 AM

Basically of bitterness--the same bitterness you try to hide behind a front of smug amusement. But I like to believe that Elentari's optimism is justified. Self-pity and resentment make a mighty protein-deficient diet; you can still change tables.

Mello

07-13-2008, 12:13 AM

Maybe I am bitter, however, it's what I choose to be. And no one can convince me otherwise. Be it God or Man.

Copperfox

07-13-2008, 12:15 AM

You're STILL doing my job for me, PROVING out of your own mouth that you have NO truth-basis for the things you simply, stubbornly WANT to believe. By contrast, I came to Christianity only gradually, checking into facts all the way.

Elentari

07-13-2008, 12:17 AM

And now I'm being called unintelligent. How wonderful. I could go in depth about Evolution, however it's late and I work for a living, so I'm tired.

I have a premonition that going in depth about everything you may know about evolution in this conversation is not going to prove to us that you are an intellectual, Jersey. ;)

Convert back to? Dear what you went through didn't sound like Christianity to me.

You still haven't answered my question[s].

bruiser, My sentiments exactly.:rolleyes:

Not going anywhere? That's because blindly stubborn contradiction doesn't need to arrive at any articulate, reasoned conclusion. Jersey pretends to be intellectually superior to the rest of us, but in actual fact she knows that she has left numerous points unanswered because she HAS NO answer. All she has is her obstinate denial, which is one hundred percent emotion-based without an intellectual leg to stand on.

Copperfox, I wasn't asking for an articulate, reasoned conclusion, I was asking for a CONVERSATION instead of a tennis match. ;) As for leaving questions unanswered, as most of them were my questions (she at least acknowledged yours to a point), I am patiently waiting, though I don't expect answers. Not because I don't believe she has them, but because I have ETERNITY to wait. :cool:

I'll wait to see what happens tomorrow.

Mello

07-13-2008, 12:17 AM

So, you're stating that I never read about Evolution?

bruiser

07-13-2008, 12:20 AM

So, you're stating that I never read about Evolution?

No, I don't believe that is what she was trying to state, dear. Even the most intellectual people without Christ lack what ought to be common knowledge.
Just because you are ignorant in knowing Christ [not saying that you are dumb, those are two different things] doesn't mean that you are dumb.
We all know that you have a passion for Evolution and that you know a lot about it.

Copperfox

07-13-2008, 12:21 AM

For the record, J-D, evolution is not a subject on which I will pester you. Several positions are held in good conscience there; C.S. Lewis himself believed that evolution had happened.

Elentari

07-13-2008, 12:22 AM

Ok, I'm getting a little upset, Jersey. I will NOT have every word I say misconstrued just because you enjoy fighting. What I said was

I have a premonition that going in depth about everything you may know about evolution in this conversation is not going to prove to us that you are an intellectual, Jersey.

You mentioned earlier you studied evolution as a child, therefore I can assess--as a TEACHER with AN EDUCATION as WELL AS a STUDENT of HIGHER LEARNING in PUBLIC institutions--that "you know your stuff". We are often experts at what interests us.

What I SAID, however, that giving us a lecture on evolution would NOT prove to us that you ARE an intellectual because I for one, and many other Christians, think that evolution is a bunch of BALONEY.

Is THAT clear?

Mello

07-13-2008, 12:29 AM

I was implying my post to Copperfox, and look, you took it out of context and the wrong way.

And I think Creation is baloney. Cause it utterly makes no sense. How could one male and one female populate the whole planet? Wouldn't that make us all children of incest? Wouldn't there be birth defects because of that? Wouldn't the human race of died out because of said defects?

Copperfox

07-13-2008, 12:30 AM

Elentari

07-13-2008, 12:38 AM

I was implying my post to Copperfox, and look, you took it out of context and the wrong way.

Took it out of context? I apologize, but next time you "imply", Jersey, note which writers mention the subject in threads previous to yours. Copperfox did not mention evolution, while I responded to that part of your thread. It was an honest mistake, but don't tell me I took anything out of context. Next time, however, I will assume you only talk to Copperfox, since that is generally the case 9 times out of 10.

Mello

07-13-2008, 12:43 AM

J-D, if you mean that you meant that I was dwelling on evolution, I sure was not. Still, it is true that, in actual contemporary practice, pro-evolution academic figures have had to resort to virtually fascistic measures of censorship to silence views which would question their Darwinian orthodoxy.

Assuming that Adam and Eve were real, I believe that they contained all the genetic material for future humanity in all its diversity, so that no two children of theirs were _genetically_ siblings any more than two strangers today would be. But the Mods will shut down this thread if there's much more discussion of reproductive restrictions on inbreeding.

So, even though Adam and Eve sinned, they would still be allowed to create the human race? Seeing what they did, I wouldn't have scraped the idea of allowing the human race to continue to flourish.

And there's even a Christian woman whom I work with who agrees with me, that Adam and Eve never existed. It's too sketchy and makes no sense.

Copperfox

07-13-2008, 12:46 AM

Refer to my previous statement that I was not pestering you about evolution.

Mello

07-13-2008, 12:47 AM

Sorry, I just didn't want this thread turned into mindless arguing. :D

bruiser

07-13-2008, 12:48 AM

So, even though Adam and Eve sinned, they would still be allowed to create the human race? Seeing what they did, I wouldn't have scraped the idea of allowing the human race to continue to flourish.

Dear, that is what makes our God so great. Is the fact that he _can_ and _does_ forgive and forget. He forgave Adam and Eve, but he also punished them, and the rest of humanity, with females having to go through painful child birth and males having to work hard.

And there's even a Christian woman whom I work with who agrees with me, that Adam and Eve never existed. It's too sketchy and makes no sense.

I'll leave this open for someone else to discuss.

Mello

07-13-2008, 12:52 AM

Dear, that is what makes our God so great. Is the fact that he _can_ and _does_ forgive and forget. He forgave Adam and Eve, but he also punished them, and the rest of humanity, with females having to go through painful child birth and males having to work hard.

Good thing man invented drugs that takes the pain away, huh? ;)

bruiser

07-13-2008, 12:59 AM

Good thing man invented drugs that takes the pain away, huh? ;)

Even better that God gave man the knowledge and materials to be able to create thoes drugs that you speak of, huh? :D

Mello

07-13-2008, 01:09 AM

Even better that God gave man the knowledge and materials to be able to create thoes drugs that you speak of, huh? :D

Then what was the purpose of him punishing females by having them have pain in child birth, if in time he was going to give knowledge to man to negate said punishment?

bruiser

07-13-2008, 01:18 AM

Then what was the purpose of him punishing females by having them have pain in child birth, if in time he was going to give knowledge to man to negate said punishment?

Just because we do have the said pain killers, doesn't mean that they are able to be used on the female, because of a harmful reaction to them. Plus, the said pain killers don't always kill all of the pain. Do they not, for you would know better than I, being a mother and all.

Mello

07-13-2008, 01:44 AM

I had an C-Section, because of complications. So, I was numb from the neck down.

Solya

07-13-2008, 05:47 AM

No, they do want me to convert. And it's getting annoying.

First of all, I would like to welcome you back on board. :) I had a feeling you would return, and I am pleased to see you again so soon. Personally, I am still not setting out to convert anyone to anything. I have only ever attempted to reason with you and to provide counterarguments to some things you were saying. I am sure that many others here will agree with me when I say that I do not believe we set out to convert you to our ways. We only attempted to make you see the other side of the argument. I feel that God wants this to happen, yes, but I do not know His motives or why He inspires me enough to continue talking with you. I just want you to know that I like talking with you for the person you are, and that it has never been my purpose to talk you into following the path I walk. The fact that you are annoyed by what you deem to be attempts to conversion, however, makes me realise that you have probably not experienced His kindness in ways like these before. It can be daunting, and new, and maybe not even understandable... but He is present in our words and actions towards you, and the fact that you feel any response to it at all makes me hopeful that you are feeling Him in one way or other.

As for Heaven and Hell... I believe Hell is pure emptiness and focuses around one's own misery for the rest of one's existence. Heaven has always been its polar opposite. In Heaven, one can laugh and weep with joy and love and be reunited with one's loved ones and experience peace at every waking moment. It is like you take all the good things about your life, enlarge them so that they fill you up whole and then let them spiral out of you in one fluid motion. That's as close as I can get to what Heaven feels like to me. I hope you will come to experience the same feeling one day, even though I have no say in whether you ever will, and that you will come to realise that we here on TDL have only ever meant to share His love with you.

On the subject of evolution, however, I have always been perfectly clear. I believe in evolution as the logical explanation for God's creation of Earth and its inhabitants. I do not believe we are put here only in order to reproduce and then die again. That line of thought oversimplifies the magnificence of creation and evolution in order to have it suit one's limited human understanding of it. Still, my beliefs in evolution do not make me any less of a Christian than I am. The two beliefs are not mutually exclusive, you know, and so it seems to me like it is quite useless to talk about it in this thread. I would, however, welcome you in the thread we've got going here about evolution. ;)

(Mmm, I had to rewrite this post once because my connection dropped out on me. I think the gist of the first one was preserved, but I cannot help but wonder if I put things as eloquently in this one as I did in the previous one. Still, my words stand as they always will. Take what you wish from it... and I hope we can continue debating in a friendly manner without having you think I am hellbent on making you convert to my ways.)

EveningStar

07-13-2008, 08:34 AM

Jersey, faith is not the same thing as superstition. Problem is, humans have a natural disposition to build a raft of superstitions around the genuine bits of faith they possess. In a sense, superstition is attracted to faith because both cater to our tendency to fill in the gaps in our knowledge.

What bothers most athiests is that....if God is so powerful and made the world, why entrust the knowledge of his faith to a few people in tennis shoes instead of sending a telegram to everyone signed "God"?

Certainly if we're getting meshed in the arguement of who's going to hell if Mrs. McDermitt's jeep has a flat tire on the way to Bothsueze? Her, for failing to evangelize? Jimmy for not giving her a spare tire? The chief's son, for not hearing about Jesus before he died of the flu? All of them? Nobody?

We expect God to be Sheriff Andy Taylor to keep the peace in Mayberry. He always shows up and never has to fire his gun. Crime is negligable.

It's not that way. Is it frustrating? Oh yes. We express it thusly:

"Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven!"

We wish things worked that well here. But matter of factly in this world humans are pretty much in charge, though ultimately responsible to the higher power.

It begs the question...and I'm sure many Jews look at their six million bretheren that died in concentration camps and asked it...why did the plots on Hitler's life fail? Why didn't God give their efforts a nudge?

Had Hitler been the only evil affecting the world, I'm sure he would have been hit by a bus. But people listened to the message. It brought out the hidden evils in people's souls. "They areally AREN'T like us" and "Why does Isaac Meershaum have a store when my boy has to clean toilets?" They wanted to believe they really were better than some other race, that their loss in World War I was due to a betrayal, not failure of the military, and that somehow their suspicions that white people were meant to rule the world were somehow so. They got excited. They got the Olympics. They got the Autobahn. They beat Poland. They came close to wiping out the Soviet Union. Until they realized they weren't just LOSING but WRONG and REPENTED for wanting to kill off "inferior" races they had to suffer. So no, Count Stauffenberg did not take out the Fuehrer. The accumulation of wealth won by the sweat of other men's brows had to be wiped out and the balance restored. And if those words sound familiar, they are from Lincoln's Second Inaugural when he said we all pray to the same God that the war may be over but perhaps in God's wisdom it goes on till everything built on the toil and blood of other men be wiped away.

True enough, but how about the innocent people that suffered along with the guilty?

You mean, for instance, like Jesus? What was HIS crime?

That's the way things work in this world. But that's not to say that prayer does not change things, or that God does not take pains to make sure the course of history flows entirely from beginning to presaged end.

Through it all, the unfairness and suffering, we are given one clear message from God. That when we see him face to face, the score will be settled. The guilty are punished and the innocent ones rewarded.

Sound like only wishful thinking? Not to me. What endures is not what we build or what we buy or sell, but what we learn and feel. And I have learned and felt a lot that has made me a better person even in this plane of existance. Heaven is real...it has already partially begun for me when I realized I could make a difference in the life of a child.

Copperfox

07-13-2008, 10:14 AM

And again, our very capacity to feel moral indignation bears witness to a supreme source of goodness. If the universe could somehow have been created by an evil power, that evil power would not have bothered including any moral conscience in it, if indeed even capable of imagining such a thing as moral conscience. Nor could a few chemicals blindly stumbling around have invented conscience.

Mello

07-13-2008, 11:26 AM

Religion just isn't for me. It's never interested me. Why would I want to go to church with a bunch of strangers? And why would I go since I loathe mankind so much?

Well, in the beginning I was forced to go because of my family. However, they realize now that I am Atheist and don't push the matter....besides my grandmother.

PrinceOfTheWest

07-13-2008, 12:19 PM

Do you loathe your family, Jersey?

Mello

07-13-2008, 12:28 PM

Yep. I can't stand any of them.

Copperfox

07-13-2008, 12:37 PM

Speaking in the most objective, detached, impartial, disinterested way, Jersey....have you looked at the theoretical possibility that the fault in this estrangement _might_ not lie _entirely_ on their side?

But even if you are in fact a 101-percent innocent victim of totally unprovoked evil from your family members, it remains true that your feeling of being _wrongly_ treated proves you are a spiritual being, because thoughts of right and wrong ARE spiritual. Dumb animals know only instinct, whereas we humans are at least capable of knowing goodness.

PrinceOfTheWest

07-13-2008, 01:07 PM

Yep. I can't stand any of them.Forgive me if I've misunderstood you, but am I wrong that you have children? I thought I saw you make a post to that effect, but I could be wrong.

Mello

07-13-2008, 02:06 PM

I have a daughter, but she no longer lives with me.

Copperfox

07-13-2008, 02:12 PM

Yes, I remember you mentioning her before. If Prince of the West overlooked your past mention of her, it wasn't willful negligence on his part. POTW bears many responsibilities, and is burdened by that silly inefficient notion that many other people are deserving of his love and attention.

Mello

07-13-2008, 02:21 PM

I never said that he did.

Copperfox

07-13-2008, 02:32 PM

I didn't say that you said POTW was willfully neglectful. But then, you didn't say that I said that you said....

Mello

07-13-2008, 02:51 PM

Now I'm slightly confused, lol.

Solya

07-13-2008, 02:54 PM

Religion just isn't for me. It's never interested me.

And yet, you are debating with us about religious matters. There is nothing so strange as a discussion partner whose claim is to have no interest in the topic of discussion whatsoever! ;)

Why would I want to go to church with a bunch of strangers?

They will not always be strangers, nor will you always have need of a church that is physically present.

And why would I go since I loathe mankind so much?

To learn that there is more to life than merely the faults of mankind, perhaps.

Well, in the beginning I was forced to go because of my family. However, they realize now that I am Atheist and don't push the matter....besides my grandmother.

Mmm, I do not like the word force at all here. It sounds to me like an aversion to religion was partially created because of the force you felt in always having to go to church and stuff. I can relate to that slightly, because there also has been a time in my life in which I was more or less forced to go sometimes. I came out of that none the worse for wear, though, and I realise they were pushing me to do so because they loved me dearly.

PrinceOfTheWest

07-13-2008, 03:24 PM

I have a daughter, but she no longer lives with me.Setting aside the confusion about who thought who said what and was under the impression of something about someone else... :D

Do you not love your daughter? And desire her to love you?

BarbarianKing

07-13-2008, 04:13 PM

And what you like me to say? That I would be upset over the fact I would not be able to go into Heaven? I don't believe in Heaven and Hell, but given the choice?

'Better to rule in Hell, then to serve in Heaven.'

Even YOU don't believe that! And you still avoided my question but that's OK. I won't press you.

I could honestly careless what others think of me or what they say about me.

Like I said, even you don't believe that!

Mello

07-13-2008, 05:40 PM

Then what do I believe then, hm?

PrinceOfTheWest

07-13-2008, 07:13 PM

Leaving you and BK to follow that train of discussion, I'm really interested in your answer to my question, if you'd like to volunteer it. Do you not love your daughter, and desire for her to love you?

I ask as a parent of six myself.

Mello

07-13-2008, 08:19 PM

No, I do not love her. Nor do I dislike her.

PrinceOfTheWest

07-13-2008, 08:25 PM

Um - wow. First time I've ever heard a mother say that. Do you mind me asking how old she is, and how long she lived with you before she went to live elsewhere?

And also - do you desire her to love you?

Mello

07-13-2008, 10:21 PM

She is 3 years old, she lived with me until about 2 months ago.

And no, she doesn't have to love me. However, that's her choice.

PrinceOfTheWest

07-13-2008, 11:26 PM

Three years old, and you don't love her? The best you can say is that you don't dislike her?

And though I appreciate that you grant her the freedom to love you or not, that wasn't precisely what I asked. What I asked was whether you desire her to love you.

bruiser

07-13-2008, 11:44 PM

This may seem completely random, but I have reasoning behind the question.

Jersey do you listen to music? If so, what kind of music?

Elentari

07-13-2008, 11:50 PM

We could probably extend that question to everyone, but that probably belongs in another thread. :D Nevertheless, the conversation--music--pertaining to individual beliefs/Christianity could pose interesting. :cool:

Llama-Llama-Duck

07-13-2008, 11:53 PM

Jersey, I don't mean this harshly at all, but, if you don't love your own daughter, I would think you're reluctant to give love to anybody. Do you love your family and friends? Or do you esteem at all? I am just wondering if you believe in love at all..

Copperfox

07-13-2008, 11:58 PM

Bruiser's question is relevant. Though music styles are not exactly morally good or evil in a direct sense, their connection to emotional moods can be a clue to the listener's mentality, as long as you don't claim too much certainty in the "research results."

L-L-D, Jersey's comments over time have lent themselves to a supposition that she is not as gushingly affectionate as some folks.

Mello

07-14-2008, 12:13 AM

No, I don't desire for my daughter to love me.

And I listen to heavymetal, deathmetal, rock (on occasion), instrutmental, and opera.

bruiser

07-14-2008, 12:41 AM

And I listen to heavymetal, deathmetal, rock (on occasion), instrutmental, and opera.

Aye, so you are familiar to the band HIM are you not? Since they are a semi-popular deathmetal/ lovemetal band.

I tend to listen to Punk rock, metal, a little instrumental, alternative rock, things similar to that nature.

Normally, if I didn't know anything about you at all what-so-ever, I could assume that you were a rebel, you had expirenced many hardships throughout your life, and that you had a weaker side to you depending on what type of instrumental and opera music that you listened to.

inkspot

07-14-2008, 10:59 AM

Sorry I missed all this discussion! Jersey, I am so glad you decided to stay. I have just been so fond of you ever since you showed up here, and believe it or not, I remember a few weeks back in a different thread about something related to the Narnia films and faith, you said, words to the effect, "I believe in myself and my daughter, and that's it." Those are not the words of a woman who does not love her child. Then, in another thread, you actually mentioned your love for your daughter -- and I responded to the effect that the fact you could and did feel love was the best evidence I had that humankind is not worse than animal kind.

So, this business of not loving your child, this is something you are telling yourself because she is no longer with you, and you don't want to hurt. I understand. It's the same when you are trying to fall out of love with a man because it can never be, and the love has just turned to pain, and you don't want it anymore. That's OK, but don't convince yourself that you can't or don't love. Just accept that for a while, this love means pain.

As for your obsession with the dark side: so what? Lots of people, even Christians, are obsessed with the dark side. There's nothing in reading about serial killers or X-Files phenomenon that conflicts with Christianity in the least. You want to wear black clothes and a dog collar or whatever it is you want to do, that's all cool by Christ. He loves you, and His kids love you. :)

Now, let me agree with CopperFox that your belief in evolution and your regard for science and logic does not preclude belief in Christ -- lots of scientists and Darwinists still believe in God. Let me also say that I remember in the other thread you said it took you years to "escape" from Christianity -- this is not a word used by someone who just woke up one day and decided never to go back to church because it was boring. This is a word used by someone who had a struggle with Christianity and felt they barely got away with their life.

So: your image of being a "dispassionate" person who has no emotions and doesn't care about the emotions of others, it's just that, an image, and clearly doesn't reflect who you really are. If you keep it up, you are going to mess up your head, because those emotions you deny wil work out one way or another, and probably in an unhealthy way.

Now, for you, Jersey, let me say: I truly am so very fond of you because you're such a funny kid, and I would love for you to stay around. If you want to discuss Christianity, keep it coming. I think it's great you're still here. If you want to discuss anything else, you know, just PM me.

And back to the thread.

:)

EveningStar

07-14-2008, 11:15 AM

Evolution and the Existance of God are not mutually exclusive. Otherwise we would be saying that God could not exist in a universe where evolution were possible. To the best of my knowledge, evolution is not only non-poisonous, it's not even unsanitary. If evolution could be proved beyond a doubt...if we had the films, the lab tests, a home movie of a fish crawling out of the sea and discovering the first baseball...that would not be a God-killer.

What bothered people was not Darwin's publication of "The Origin of Species" in which he claims that species changed throughout time. It was his later book "The Descent of Man" that raised the real uproar among the public.

Evolutionary theory opened the possibility (one explanation among many) that life was somehow less wonderous because it might have spontaneously arisen from nonlife without the assistance of a previous living thing and thus we would not owe our existance to a higher power. That explains the outrage factor. But let's elevate this discussion above the plane of like/dislike.

Here's why you should rethink the idea that evolution precludes the existance of a God. The whole notion that a dynamic universe would exist in the absence of a Prime Mover, rather than a formless cloud of hydrogen without disturbances, without currents, without features, is a bit much.

In other words there must be unbalance in the universe to drive change. Convection, electrodynamic forces, unequal distribution of mass. Dead matter would degrade, it would not drive itself on to eruption, explosion, implosion, and excitation. Existance would fall to the lowest common denominator...the equal distribution of matter and energy in its most fundamental form.

A dynamic universe without a Prime Mover would presume the following:

1) That there is such a thing as a perpetual motion machine able to operate indefinitely without an external source of energy. The wheel spins forever.

2) That the perpetual motion machine was set into motion without an external perturbation. In other words the wheel not only spins forever but nothing gave it a whirl.

3) That any form of paranormal activity (feel free not to put this into a religous context) does not yield even the slightest possibility of a form of consciousness outliving the body.

That's what makes the idea of life arising spontaneously from a dead universe so laughably implausible. Notice I did not even contradict you on the possibility that life could arise from nonliving matter, or that it might even (implausibly) do so completely spontaneously. What I said was that the conditions for life to arise from chemistry on a wet beach during a thunderstorm WOULD NOT EXIST without a Prime Mover. To me that Prime Mover is God.

And just so I'm clear on this, I believe God created life by a deliberate act. It didn't happen under the body of one of his abandoned cars because he left a box of oreos in the trunk.

inkspot

07-14-2008, 12:37 PM

Thanks, John, I agree wth you, of course.

There is already a thread about evolution, so if we ant to discuss that, let's do it here:
http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6373&highlight=evolution

The subject only comes up in this thread because Jersey listed it as one of the ideas why she did not believe in God, because she believes in evolution -- but as John points out, that is not really a reason not to believe in God. It's certainly not a reason not to believe in Jesus as creation does not touch on His claims to be God, at all.

So, back to the thread ... What are your views on Christians and Christianity?

I have been reading Don Wilsons Blue Like Jazz, and he believes many people are driven away from Christians because we behave as if people have to earn our love by behaving in a certain way.

I think that is a wrong-headed thing, and Jesus loved people even when they behaved in a very dastardly way. So probably we, as His children, should get a better handle on actually loving unconditionally as opposed to just saying we do.

Solya

07-14-2008, 02:04 PM

Thanks, Inky and EveningStar, for adding some more to something I previously posted. :) I most certainly agree with you on all counts.

Jersey, you and I seem to have pretty much the same taste in music! :) That is wonderful. I hope you find the same kind of solace in it which I have experienced. I find its listeners to be generally clever and strong people with a great capacity for love and kindness. I believe you to be that same kind of person.

Second, I want to reinforce what Inkspot already mentioned in her post and which I overlooked in a previous one of mine. There is nothing at all wrong with the dark side for as long as you stick to research and reading only. I certainly won't have to tell you that it would be a different matter entirely if you acted upon the dark things you read, of course. I personally still research paranormal phenomena and am still active within the communities of Pagans, occultists and New Agers. Me being a Christian has not wiped out my experience in that field, nor has it ever acted as a reason why I could not pursue that particular area of expertise of mine.

The problem with many Christians I have encountered is that they only focus on the 'lighter' aspects of life. It is all about love and joy and peace and wonder. There is nothing wrong with these things, of course, but many seem to forget that the suffering and the pain that come with living are just as valid of a feeling as the positive ones are. (Perhaps even more valid, seeing as our faith also marks great events of suffering such as what happened to Jesus and His followers.) They try to suppress everything that reminds them of the darker side of their lives because they fear it. They fear the influence it might have on them and their faith. I cannot say I honestly blame them for it, but on the other hand they are turning this dark side into a devil that is far bigger than they ought to allow it to be.

Facing the dark side through study and confrontations with the darker side of yourself seems like a much more stable path to take. I have found that ignoring the darkness is only going to make it that much more potent, so I have confronted most of my own fears in regards to it and have welcomed it in my life for what it is. I treat it as a friend instead of an enemy, and I believe that the Devil will find it all the more difficult to make me yield to any darkness because of it.

As for unconditional love, finally, because I just read Inkspot's previous post in its entirety... how would we achieve it? I have personally always been capable of it, for as much as I can remember at least, but I have always run into people who did not believe in it or whose love was so bound to conditions that I wondered how on Earth they were still breathing! To me, loving people unconditionally comes as naturally as living. I just do it without having to think about it. Some people have called me naive because of it, but I think I am far from that... I know exactly how human nature works, even though I sometimes marvel at the easy switch to hatred and anger most people can make, and I can love everyone unconditionally because I know precisely that this is what they need...

Who is to judge for another how much deserving of love the other is? Who is to judge the conditions of love for another? Time and time again, I have come across people who have literally told me to not love someone. That totally came as a shock to my system. I was not aware of anyone putting conditions to love as though it was something you always had to earn. The thing with love is that it is so pure and it is always more than enough to give. You can never run out of it, so why should we not share it? Are we so afraid of what it can do or something?

Copperfox

07-14-2008, 02:21 PM

My good buddy Timbalionguy has had some really bad things happen to him in his professional career, and it is precisely _because_ I have endured great grief myself that I can earn a hearing with him and try to help him.

Mello

07-14-2008, 02:29 PM

I'm glad some of you find me amusing. I'm done with this thread. I will no longer reply to it.

inkspot

07-14-2008, 03:04 PM

I'm glad some of you find me amusing. I'm done with this thread. I will no longer reply to it.
Ouch! Are you saying this because I said you were such a funny kid? To me that's a pretty high compliment ... I hope ti did not come out wrong! If you read the rest of the post, I think you have a pretty clear idea that I am very fond of you and have been paying close attention to any of your posts in any thread for just this reason, I have you in very high esteem, Jersey!

In any case, if you are offended because of that, remember you told CopperFox a few pages back that your whole reason for engaging in dialog with us on a subject that didnt interest you was that we amused you. So even if I did mean that I was amused by you (which I didn't), turn about would be fairplay, wouldn't it? I told you I was thrilled you'd decided to stay -- and what I meant by saying you were a funny kid was that I find you fresh and charming. There aren't too many like you here, and we need you. :)

inkspot

07-14-2008, 03:13 PM

Sorry to double post, but next I wanted to address Solya's, and I wanted to get my response to jersey up there before I moved on, in case she is still here. :)

Solya, I believe you are very capable of unconditional love and truly puzzled as to why others are not. In the church in the USA, in the past two decades, there has been a kind of shift in thinking. Christians felt stepped-on and put-down by the Political Correctness thing and by attacks on religious freedom, and began to get militant. (You don't want to do that to Christians -- look at Sarajevo...)

So, a situation sprang up in many churches where the prevailing attitude seemed to be: It's Us against Them, and although the "Them" we felt we were against were forces trying to clamp down on our free speech and religious liberty, the "Them" we could see and interact with were "the liberals," the druggies, the hippies, the homosexuals, the feminists, the pagans ...

A culture of feeling we were at war with people sort of sprang up, instead of at war with spiritual forces in high places. Wilson says we began to look at those who didn't align with us politicaly/socially either as enemies or as charity cases. In neither case did we extend unconditional love. To the druggies and AIDS victims and busted-up freaks we extended charity. To the homosexuals and liberals, we extended contempt.

I am not saying this is universally the case across the board with every believer because it surely is not. But I think that there is some wisdom to be found in remembering that "we wrestle not against flesh and blood." Non-believers do not want our pity, but everyone wants love.

Is this making any sense?

Although I have mentioned gay people here, please don't lets start a discussion of gayness specifically, because we do not talk about this particular ethical issues as such on this family-friendly forum; I use it here as an example, only.

Thanks!

EveningStar

07-14-2008, 03:35 PM

People expect a God like Solomon that will sit on the throne and pass laws in this world. When they don't find an old man in a dress that smites people, and they see natural laws being carried out even when it involves floods, fires and plagues, they feel there must not be a God at all.

Just as people felt, during his earthly life, that a "real" messiah would whomp the Romans and make everyone Jewish. Which didn't happen with Jesus. And I'm glad, frankly. He was the solid gold ring in the Cracker Jack box, the unexpected treasure of spiritual freedom and the gift of eternal life. The Romans are dead, and Christ lives, and I live in him.

Face it folks. The natural order of things was deliberately put into the world. The world is nature, after all. Whatever happens to us when we die, what happens during our lifetime is mostly the result of acts having consequences within the framework of our natural and urban environment. God does intervene, but not to impress us or inform us. After all, the God that created the universe could afford to buy a Super Bowl ad spot to say, "Yes, it's really me!"

That must indicate that God doing parlour tricks to scare the natives into bowing down simply isn't his style.

Jesus told Pilate that his kingdom was not of this world. In other words he owns the world but does not fill out the paperwork, set the speed limits, sit behind the jurist's bench, or vote in the legislature. We wanted to rule ourselves according to our ideas of fairness and tolerance. Now we get to do it till we're sick to death of it, and when death releases us from the hate and sin of this world we will understand the yearing for "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven."

So why does he leave it up to us? For the same reason he wants us to pray about our needs EVEN THOUGH HE KNOWS THEM IN ADVANCE. We are to participate, practice, study, struggle, grow and learn sympathy the hard way.

I'm a Scoutmaster. I know best where to pitch the tents, how to settle spats, and how to give first aid. However I would be doing them a disservice not to let them find out how to lead successfully the hard way...find out what happens when you elect the popular boy rather than the responsible boy as patrol leader, etc etc.

God made us in his image. He presents us with some of his problems, though on a scale we humans can grasp. He wants us to work our way through them in order to more fully understand and appreciate him.

In the 1001 Arabian Nights tales, there was the story of Aladdin. He, when he tasked the djinn to make his palace, asked him to leave one column in the throne room out so that local artisans, struggling to make one to match the workmanship, jewelled excellence, and perfect symmatry of the others, would realize how impossible it all was. That was an excellent way to brag without being seen to brag. Not that God is a braggart--he's not--but by building 9/10s of nature and having us fill in the last bit, he impresses us with the mysteries and challenges of existance.

For now the way we botch those challenges in our anger, prejudice and pettiness keeps us from experiencing the joy we are made to share.

Solya

07-14-2008, 03:44 PM

You make perfect sense. :) One difference I have always noted between Europe and the US is the difference in Christianity. You guys feel a lot more judgemental to me most of the time, but at the same time you also seem to have a level of faith and togetherness we have not always got here anymore. In many ways, I think the European religious mindset has been influenced by political and cultural things in ways the American one has not. I am friends with a few gay people, just as I debate quite heavily with feminists and hippie-like people, and generally speaking my political preferences have always been extremely left-wing in nature. For me, discarding those people in the way you describe seems to be the most dangerous thing one could possibly do. It serves no purpose other than to make people think we as Christians are intolerant and judgemental all the time.

You know, the only things I ever rebel against are a lack of freedom and a lack of love. These two run so deeply intertwined for me that I believe we can only truly experience the love and freedom of our faith if we stop thinking that the "them" you mentioned in your post need anything other than our love. It does not mean we need to approve of the way they lead their lives. It just means we need to see them as human beings whose struggle with life is just as great as our own struggle with it.

Also, the way some of us clamp down on non-believers or people of different religions... gah... it makes me a bit shaky in my faith sometimes, to be honest. I am always one for open and honest debates, but never for evangelising to the point of no return or something like that. I think Christ calls to all of us in our own time and that no one can convince us to follow Him unless we are truly called to do so. I have been called in various ways myself and I know that none of those callings have ever been related to someone telling me I was living my life in sin and was feeding my soul to the Devil. I have been told this, many times over, by those Christians who professed to know God's love for me. Yet I noticed no love from them. I noticed they saw me as something beneath them instead. I noticed I was nothing more than a silly little girl in their eyes. I noticed they held no warmth or love for me, and so I turned from them as I had turned from my Saviour before.

Sometimes, our ways do more harm than good. We would do well to remember that it is not judgement that has made the world a better place. It is love that did. It will always be love that does. No other force in the Universe has the pleasure of being known as both terrible and wonderful at the same time, after all. And, in the end, that is what our service in Christ comes down to. It is not about who has prayed the most, converted the most, evangelised the most... it is about who has loved the most in His name and image.

inkspot

07-14-2008, 05:04 PM

Oh, bravo to EveningStar and Solya both! You are both so very right!

John, you have such a great way of putting things, particular the analogy with the Scouts ... God is wowing us with nature, and wooing us with love, but educating us with putting the everyday governing of ourselves in our hands.

God made us in his image. He presents us with some of his problems, though on a scale we humans can grasp. He wants us to work our way through them in order to more fully understand and appreciate him...

For now the way we botch those challenges in our anger, prejudice and pettiness keeps us from experiencing the joy we are made to share.
Yah, exactly. And even some of us Christians, real believers in Christ, let the anger and/or pettiness get in the way of sharing the joy -- and love -- of Christ.
I have been called in various ways myself and I know that none of those callings have ever been related to someone telling me I was living my life in sin and was feeding my soul to the Devil. I have been told this, many times over, by those Christians who professed to know God's love for me. Yet I noticed no love from them. I noticed they saw me as something beneath them instead. I noticed I was nothing more than a silly little girl in their eyes. I noticed they held no warmth or love for me, and so I turned from them as I had turned from my Saviour before.
Exactly the point of the book I was reading. Wilson says if you really love someone, you can be totally honest with him, and he will understand you intend the best for him, even if you are worried out of your mind that his behavior is destructive to him; he may or may not take your advice, but bedrock: he will know you love him, that you care.

Whereas if you are mad at him for his destructive behavior, and not really loving him in spite of it, he will assume your advice is worthless, because, what do you care?

We need to ask Jesus to help us love people, to love people, truly love them, through us, I think, so that when and if we do explain the truth of Christ to them or discuss their destructive behavior for them, there is a groundwork for it, a groundwork of love.

In my flawed way, in my clumsiness, I was hoping my love for Jersey Dagmar showed in my posts, so she would feel and hear that first, before anything else. I still hope she will! :)

Mello

07-14-2008, 06:51 PM

I seriously doubt I will

Copperfox

07-14-2008, 08:10 PM

Compare the respective lengths of the last two posts. As I've said, it takes no special talent or courage or wit just to keep on stubbornly contradicting. But Jersey, the One Who invented talent and courage and wit still stubbornly AFFIRMS His goodwill toward you.

EveningStar

07-14-2008, 09:31 PM

Jersey, we don't get a commission if we "sell" you on belief in a God. We find great comfort in our faith. We want you to have that comfort too.

Mello

07-14-2008, 09:47 PM

And why do you think I have no comfort? I honestly doubt I would find any comfort in converting over to something I don't wish to.

Solya

07-15-2008, 04:35 AM

I merely extend my hand towards you, as a friend, because I believe you have been hurt and I wish for you to be healed. :) If you have read my past posts at all, you will know that I do not do this out of a wish to have you converted to my path. Of course I would feel very happy if you did, but it is not the reason why I began to talk with you and it is not the reason why I still speak with you now. All I want for you is to experience that my religion does not equal hatred, anger, spite and judgement. In my own way, I still want to share that love with you which I have plenty of. It is not bound to petty restrictions and I doubt anyone would be able to destroy it, so take what you will from it.

Inkspot, after all, is right when she says that the groundwork of the things we do for God should be love. I am not going to judge you, Jersey, in the way that I have been judged by Christians in the past. To do so would be to take away the one commandment Jesus gave me, which is to love everyone and provide healing for them when need be so. That is my calling in this life and I act upon it on a daily basis. The things I give, I give freely... so take them to your heart, even if you do not know what to do with them or see them as something you do not need, and let them be there as an added comfort to the comfort you say you already experience.

Protagonist

07-15-2008, 05:06 AM

I believe you have been hurt and I wish for you to be healed.
Okay... That's a huge insult to a lot of people. Especially to people who left Christianity. (like Jersey obviously)
We want you to have that comfort too.
"Atheism is the rejection of theism."

there is no faith to believe in when you're in that position.

Solya

07-15-2008, 05:33 AM

Okay... That's a huge insult to a lot of people. Especially to people who left Christianity. (like Jersey obviously)

Believe me when I say it was not meant as such. I would wish the same kind of healing upon any Christian, and that sentence of mine did not even relate to her having left Christianity at all. If you took it that way, you are reading too much into my words which is not there at all. I know better than to insult people like this.

EveningStar

07-15-2008, 06:49 AM

I've talked to a number of Muslims and one of the things that bothers them about Christianity is the concept of the Trinity. They see this as tri-theism and consider it blasphemous.

Admittedly, claiming to believe in one God but to say he is in three persons is a rather hard concept to wrap oneself around considering how other people define "one God".

Though the Trinity is a fundamental belief of Christianity, there are still bodies of Christians that deny the equal as one doctrine. To them Jesus is some kind of "God, Jr." or "Vice God". They don't consider the Holy Spirit to be separate from God the Father.

And yet in an odd way the doctrine of the Trinity explains a lot. That God has always had fellowship and never, in the strictest sense of the word, been a loner. I explain it to some people that you have this father figure who makes executive decisions, a child/youth/creative portion in charge of new life, and this third being...the Holy Spirit...who acts basically like the mother figure. Sustainer, nurturer, guardian of the home, hearth, and church. So I tell them the human family was designed to experience to a degree this closely knit fellowship and thus be more in the image of God.

Solya

07-15-2008, 07:52 AM

Yes, the Trinity is a concept which has sparked many a debate before. :) The funny thing, to me, is that most Wiccans I have talked with found it very easy to wrap their heads around that concept because of the threefold or triple Goddess in their own religion. Their viewpoint consists of their Goddess being maiden, mother and crone all at once and yet separate from one another. (There are also mentions of triple deities in other traditions of Paganism, I believe, but the system of Wicca is probably the most prominent example of it.) The Trinity is not such a difficult concept to understand, to me, but I think it is a source of confusion for quite a lot of people. I will see if I can remember something I read about it a while ago, but I am running out of time to do so right now... so I will check in here later on to see if I can recover anything from my memory. ;)

EveningStar

07-15-2008, 08:10 AM

There are a lot of odd things out there that are equally strange but true.

Like all living things I am an offshoot of pre-existing life. But I am half and half a man and woman that were unrelated strangers before they met and fell in love. A living cell from each of their bodies formed one new unique life and my whole body developed from that union. There is nothing more odd about God's spiritual union than their is with my physical one.

It is quite possible that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, under different circumstances, might have been entirely separate. But they are all-present, so they completely overlap. They are all-knowing so their minds share one data set. It might simply be that three eternal all knowing, all powerful, all present perfect minds would HAVE TO EXIST IN A UNION in order to be present in the same universe.

Just speculation of course, but it explains a lot of the mystery to me.

inkspot

07-15-2008, 10:47 AM

I like the way CS Lewis explained why we can't fully understand the concept. He used an example from geometry ...

If you are using only one dimension, you could draw only a straight line. If you are using two, you could draw a figure: say, a square ... If you have three dimensions, you can then build what we call a solid body: say, a cube ... And a cube is made up of six squares.

A world of one dimension would be a straight line. In a two-dimensional world, you still get straight lines, but many lines make one figure. In a three-dimensional world, you still get figures but many figures make one solid body. In other words, as you advance to more real and more complicated levels, you do not leave behind you the things you found on the simpler levels: you still have them, but combined in new ways -- in ways you could not imagine if you knew only the simpler levels.

Just so, God can combine, at His level, distinctive and separate Persons into one Being, just as we once combined the lines to be a square the square to be a cube -- they are still separate things (lines) and yet they are one thing (a cube).

In God's dimension, so to speak, you find a being who is three persons while remaining one being, just as a cube is six squares while remaining one cube. Of course we cannot fuly conceive a being like that: just as, if we were made so we perceived only two-dimensions in space, we could never properly imagine a cube.

Lewis is a smartie. :)

Copperfox

07-15-2008, 12:23 PM

I believe, with G.K. Chesterton, that God has eternally willed Himself to be a Trinity so that, even before He created anything _outside_ Himself, He could already contain a sort of _society_ within Himself, enabling Himself to experience love even before He had angels and humans to love.

The biggest _abuse_ of Trinitarian doctrine has occurred where, because of the inevitable emotional appeal of Jesus in His Incarnation, people get so fixated on _this_ Person of the Trinity that they crowd out the Father, leaving Him in their minds having NO role to play that is distinctly His own.

Solya

07-15-2008, 01:20 PM

And how about the Holy Spirit? If there is one aspect of the Trinity which is deserving of more attention than it's recently been getting... it's that one. The concept image we've got of the Father and the Son is pretty solid, but the Holy Spirit seems to be harder to grasp at. :) One of the most confusing texts concerning the Trinity is, according to some other people I've spoken with, the part of the NT in which Jesus prays to His Father in the Garden of Gethsemane. In there, there is a very clear distinction made between Father and Son which then confuses everyone when the claim is made that they're both the same entity. ;)

Copperfox

07-15-2008, 01:25 PM

In the circles I move in, the Holy Spirit is in no danger of being disregarded, because people believe in His gifts like prophecy. But for everything else, for everything which is not NAILED DOWN as being specific to the _Third_ Person of the Trinity, people are _constantly_ saying this was really Jesus, that was really Jesus--until God the _Father_ is left with nothing, _absolutely_ nothing.

EveningStar

07-15-2008, 01:28 PM

I have always seen a parallel in the Trinity to the human family. A father, a mother and a child. I believe the family was patterned after the Trinity.

Though it must be clearly said that the Hebrew for God is genderless (neither male nor female) it is not a stretch to say the Holy Spirit is the motherly side of God.

Just look at what the Holy Spirit does and you'll see what I mean.

Solya

07-15-2008, 01:30 PM

Copperfox

07-15-2008, 01:38 PM

About a female Holy Spirit:

Problem is, ANY time ANY Person of the Trinity is mentioned in God's Word in ANY way that could specify a gender, it is ALWAYS male. And no, this is NOT because "those patriarchal primitives never thought of the idea that God could be feminine;" they ALWAYS had available examples of mythical god-DESSES on which they could have drawn for comparison.

Feminists who insist that God is definitely female also insist that men should not feel threatened by this; well, I can turn that the other way, and say that WOMEN should not feel threatened by Jesus having called the Father AND the Holy Spirit each "He." God does indeed, in ALL three Persons, possess ALL gentle attributes which are classically feminine; but for purposes of identity, He has to have had a reason to refer to Himself in masculine terms. I can point out one reason: I have NEVER EVER seen ONE case of God being preached as Goddess, where pantheism wasn't brought along with it.

I speak as a man who, in twenty years of military service, never had even the tiniest bit of discomfort in obeying orders from female officers.

inkspot

07-15-2008, 02:43 PM

Solya, each day in my quiet time, I invite the Holy Spirit to pour out His gifts on me, and then I of course declare that I receive them, accept them. The ones I can remember from Scripture, and which I receive by name, are these (in no particular order):

Wisdom
Discernment
A word of knowledge
Prophecy
Evangelism
Tongues
The Interpretation of Tongues
Preaching
Teaching
Service
Hospitality
Leadership
Faith
Mercy
Generosity
Exhortation
Encouragement

I feel like I desperately need wisdom and discernment, so I usually put those right up at the top of my list. I feel like the Holy Spirit has given me faith, mercy and generosity; those are areas where I feel strong. The others, I am still waiting and hoping.

Jesus said when He was leaving the disciples that if He left, He would send them a Comforter, the "Spirit of truth" to guide them into all truth ... This is the Holy Spirit to me. Doesn't really matter if He wants to be masculine or feminine or both. He's Truth.

PrinceOfTheWest

07-15-2008, 02:45 PM

Mmm, well, apparently the Catholic Church is a bit in disarray concerning those Gifts of the Holy Spirit because I never even heard about them until I researched other denominations. :rolleyes: The only references that I've been able to find that led towards them were in the texts given to me by a Catholic monk and within some teachings of Catholic mystics. If I had been told this years ago, it would've probably prevented my turning away from Christianity. The Holy Spirit is often left with absolutely nothing over here where I live, and I am growing increasingly frustrated because of it.
Gee, you must've had bad Confirmation prep. Around our parish, the pre-Confirmation classes are all about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Plus, there are retreats focused on the Holy Spirit - effectively Life in the Spirit Seminars for teens. I went to one when I was in high school and it changed my life.

CF, I 100% agree with you that we must refer to and conceptualize the Lord as He has revealed Himself to us - which includes gender (i.e. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). That being the case, it's perfectly orthodox to understand that the Godhead transcends and contains all realities, including gender. Distinctions such as male and female proceed from Him, and ultimately reflect something of His nature. Many mystics have reflected on the maternal nature of the ministry of the Holy Spirit (e.g. how He "carries us" to the Father), so that lies within the bounds of solid orthodoxy. That being said, we must keep in mind that God revealed Himself to us as He did for a reason, and we should respect that.

EveningStar

07-15-2008, 03:12 PM

Just so we're clear on what I just said, masculine and feminine aspects do not refer to male and female. Only mortals need sex to keep the population up. For God to have a gender would almost imply that he himself (they themselves?) was the product of sexual reproduction.

Given the way early man looked at women, no wonder God said he was a he in order to be taken seriously. But as for how he presented himself, the Holy Spirit descended in the form of a dove when Jesus was baptised. Does that mean God is a bird, and only creatures with wings are made in his image? Of course not. God is whatever he wants to be, unlike the majority of us who are stuck with the same face in the mirror every morning.

Solya

07-15-2008, 03:22 PM

Our Confirmation prep basically consisted of our priest telling us things that were new to my classmates but not to me. There was nothing in those talks (from what I remember, at least) that spoke of the Gifts, the nature and the presence of the Holy Spirit. This was the same priest who told me just before my Confirmation that the gift of the discerning of spirits would never be real in someone as young as I. I think that sums up how bad it was, right? ;)

Inkspot, thanks for the list. :) I have not been around people who could speak in tongues or interpret them, so all I know about that came from reading up on it. Personally, I feel strongest in the areas of discernment, prophecy, mercy and faith. I was also told that empathy is another gift of the Spirit, but I actually connected that gift to mercy myself. These all developed so rapidly after my Confirmation that I was left disoriented and confused because of it. I am still developing in the healing one now, because there was a time in which I was not ready to handle what came with that particular gift. It is unfortunate that I had such a lousy Confirmation prep, because it took me years to be able to deal with what came after Confirmation for me.

Because I sense the Holy Spirit being such a huge presence in my life, I think we are doing the Holy Spirit a disservice if we gloss over Her/Him in the way that priest I just talked about did. I don't know about the gender of the Holy Spirit, because I think the Spirit transcends our idea of it... but, then again, I'm no expert on the subject. :p I do see the Spirit as the very essence of life, though... like the deepest truths and wisdoms of this Universe... like love drawn in a single breath... nurturing, powerful, guiding... the core of our belief is maintained by the Spirit, I think...

inkspot

07-15-2008, 03:35 PM

I grew up in the Assemblies of God denomination in the late 60's to late 80's so I heard a lot of speaking in tongues, and I still work with A/G clients and attend their functions from time to time, so I still hear this. I personally do not have this gift at this time, but I am sure it is real. It's only one gift though, or two if you count interpretation of tongues separately, from a long lift of gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Isn't the idea that the Holy Spirit lives within us, so the "God in us" is the Spirit?

Solya

07-15-2008, 03:44 PM

Yeah... the divine spark I always get so giddy about is real! :D LOL, I frightened many people back in the day by telling them I could sense that spark in them.

The Spirit's already there at Baptism, of course, but I personally found that the Spirit gets a whole lot stronger after Confirmation. It's nearly impossible to not sense the pulling and pushing of that spark within your spirit. I think the Spirit lives in all followers of Christ, but that it takes a while for any of us to really listen to what we're being told by our little spark.

inkspot

07-15-2008, 04:06 PM

Sometimes in church in the USA, it doesn't feel like anyone is really trying to listen to the Holy Spirit. In big churches like mine, it seems like taking classes and going to summits and seminars and stuff is the life of the church ... I don't know ... I just don't hear a lot of people talking about intimate friendship with Christ or hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit.

But then again, who am I talking to about it? No one.

EveningStar

07-15-2008, 04:17 PM

That's because people don't achieve balance, they jump from extreme to extreme, swinging on the old pendulum. OUCH, the fire is HOT, jump for the ice, boys! BRRR, the ice is COLD, we need to be in the fire, boys!

We cannot retreat from the natural world or we wonder why God won't save us if we stand at Avalanche Point setting off cherry bombs. We also cannot retreat from the supernatural thinking of God as a Sigmund Freud that says anything goes as long as you remember YOU ARE SPECIAL.

True belief in God is neither the complete absence of the spiritual nor is it the complete denial of the physical. We must stop thinking of religion as a philosophy and remember that it is a living truth full of power.

Copperfox

07-15-2008, 04:46 PM

A female deity CAN be, and has been, taken perfectly seriously even among male chauvinists. The absolutely supreme top deity in the Shinto pantheon is the GODDESS Amaterasu--and believing in her didn't stop the samurai from keeping women subordinated. So yes, Yahweh COULD have assumed a female identity; but something about His relationship with creation made it more appropriate for Him to present Himself as masculine.

inkspot

07-15-2008, 05:19 PM

True belief in God is neither the complete absence of the spiritual nor is it the complete denial of the physical. We must stop thinking of religion as a philosophy and remember that it is a living truth full of power.
Yah, agreed. I get the idea though ... and maybe this would be better over in the Emerging Church thread ... that some churches in the USA are moving more toward a spirituality which meshes very well with physicality -- and yet doesn't have Christ in it, or at least has Him in a subordinate sort of position. Whereas, I think if we are going to embrace spirituality at all in His name, it is He we have to embrace -- not just some random force for good or something.

EveningStar

07-15-2008, 05:36 PM

In other words NEVER say "Use the Force, Luke!" :D

Sorry, I spent too many Sundays over at St. Yoda's... :p

shortangel

07-15-2008, 05:48 PM

i've given this alot of thought before i answered and sorry if this is stuff that is been already said in here, first of all what is a Christian? a Christian is not somebody who stands around with a bullhorn or a sign that says you're going to burn or repent repent, or God hates whatever, sorry that i said that but sadly it's how people that don't believe view Christians, a Christian is somebody that believes that Jesus paid for his sins on the cross, and that he died and rose again, and who believes that church membership is not required for salvation

EveningStar

07-15-2008, 06:54 PM

For the vast part of the Church's 2000 year history, we didn't even have bullhorns. We had to use megaphones like Rudy Vallee. :D

But you are right. Jesus told us to love one another, ad we've been enforcing that with dungeon, fire and sword for nearly two millenia. :p

That being said, and all jokes aside, Jesus has lived on in the hearts of folk of good will and we have survived through the centuries of screaming, shooting and stabbing by practicing the golden rule. We aren't the loudest ones, just the happiest ones.

Elentari

07-16-2008, 02:17 AM

The Spirit's already there at Baptism, of course, but I personally found that the Spirit gets a whole lot stronger after Confirmation. It's nearly impossible to not sense the pulling and pushing of that spark within your spirit. I think the Spirit lives in all followers of Christ, but that it takes a while for any of us to really listen to what we're being told by our little spark.

I'm not Catholic, so I don't quite know what Confirmation is exactly, but I know what you mean, Solya. For me, I was 5 when I first became a Christian and I was surrounded by it, because my father was (is) a pastor. Spiritual truths, therefore, have been something I have had a somewhat CONTINUING learning experience with, depending on my age/understanding. When I was 5 all I cared about was that, since I knew (in that childish innocence of just KNOWING) that God was real and good, that the only thing to do was to love Him. I wanted to go to Heaven--I knew that was where my family would be going and if God was there to, all the better. That was the limit of my understanding. I was saved, but God was still "up there" while I was down here. The way the "Spirit" moved was something I never (knowingly) experienced for myself, though I saw evidence in my parents, though it was something I did not understand.

I truly became a follower of Christ in high school when I realized that being a Christian meant that I needed to submit to His authority in everything. At that point, the Holy Spirit became real to me. Though I have never spoken in tongues or interpreted, I have felt the blessing of having my mother pray in tongues for me. When I was younger I worried that I wasn't a "good Christian" because I didn't speak in tongues or prophecy, but God showed me that prophecy wasn't simply speaking out loud in church, it could also be demonstrated in my prayers for a friend or in the pictures the Holy Spirit may give that minister to a small group. I feel that my visible gifts are in mercy and faith, and being a quietly content behind-the-scenes person, this suits me wonderfully. :)

Anyway, the main purpose of this post was my view of the Holy Spirit and the two-fold way He works in us. As I've mentioned in other posts, my church is going through the book of Acts which mentions the Spirit, oh, all the time. ;) My pastor noted something that I had been curious about for awhile. When we are saved, the Holy Spirit resides WITHIN us, helping us to live like Jesus...to be holy. The Holy Spirit can also come ON us--like at Pentacost when the flames lit on everyone's head and Peter preached a Spirit-lead message and 3000 people were saved. So, the Holy Spirit is always IN us (love, joy, peace, etc. are fruits OF THE SPIRIT), yet the POWER of the Spirit can also come ON us (it's mentioned several times in the Old and New Testiments where "the Spirit came upon" someone and something incredible occurred. I imagine this would feel quite different...more powerful, inspiring...so when we act or speak we are not speaking our own words--as Peter I'm sure would agree--but the very words of God THROUGH us.

Solya

07-16-2008, 05:16 AM

a Christian is not somebody who stands around with a bullhorn or a sign that says you're going to burn or repent repent, or God hates whatever, sorry that i said that but sadly it's how people that don't believe view Christians,

Actually, that is usually the very first thing a non-believer hears when he/she tells others that he/she is not a Christian. I have heard the burning in hell, the going to hell, the repenting, the idea of God hating people like me, the prejudices towards other beliefs... and those people claimed to be Christians just as much as we now claim to be Christians. But, you know, once one gets past those people Christianity is absolutely wonderful. :p

Elentari, thanks for that wonderful addition. The Holy Spirit being within us is the spark I talked about earlier, but the Holy Spirit coming on us is far more powerful than just that single spark. It feels like every hurt you have ever had to deal with is lessened, the walls you have put around yourself are lowered and you are no longer who you always thought you were. It is the one true moment of knowing God is here and knowing that God loves us. It is like you are so calm within yourself that there is room for the Holy Spirit to move in. I have sensed it happen inside of me sometimes, especially during the gifts of discernment and prophecy, and it is a feeling I cannot truly put into words.

Copperfox

07-16-2008, 09:24 AM

EveningStar

07-16-2008, 09:58 AM

That's ridiculous, Copperfox. Badgers don't drive cars, they peddle bikes! :p

All jokes aside, what people have done over the last 2000 years has less to do with religion and more to do with people. People try to use religion to explain and excuse what they do, but basically such motives, which transcend religious, racial, language and cultural differences are:

1) Our new regime will be glorious, but only if we can count on 100 percent support of the hearts, minds and backs of all its members!

2) That group of people dresses funny. They won't marry us, won't eat our food and won't sleep under our roof. And they don't talk about what they do behind closed doors. I bet it's evil, and I bet they'll kill us in our sleep if we don't strike first.

3) Because they believe the way they do instead of the way we do, they think we're wrong.

4) Their son talked to my daughter about coming to their next ceremony. She's had trouble with her faith before. I'm not going to let that creep steal my child's immortal soul!

It's important to realize that I could be talking about Animist vs. Zoroastrian, Bahai vs. Unity, Hutu vs. Tutsi, Zulu vs. Bantu.

It's important also to stress that back in the Middle Ages every group thought there were other groups that deserved to die because of their beliefs. It was a medieval mind set, not a Christian mindset.

inkspot

07-16-2008, 10:15 AM

Badger, you need not say that "WE" have been illegitimately resorting to the sword for two millenia. If I stole your car without your knowledge and purposely drove it into a playground full of children, would you be under any obligation to turn YOURSELF in for that crime? Neither do you need to take shame on yourself, or expect me to take any on myself, for unjust violence done by past evildoers who were in OBVIOUS DISOBEDIENCE to Jesus.
Actually, it may not be that bad an idea. In the book I've been reading by Don Wilson, he tells about setting up a confessional booth at Reed College's infamous Ren Feyre in Portland. (It's a serious drugs/drinking/bachanal/ bash). But when the scoffing students entered the booth, the Christian "confessor" instead confessed to them ...

"Jesus told His followers to feed the hungry and heal the sick, and we haven't done that great a job. We're really sorry. Christ commanded me to love my neighbor as myself, and I just haven't been that loving. I'm really sorry about that. A lot of women and children died in the crusades, and some of their killers were Christians. I am really sorry this happened ..." and so forth.

He reports he interacted with about 30 students that night (not Christians! There are hardly any Christians on the whole campus!), and that every one of them had a positive response, and some of them wanted to hug him ...

I don't know if anyone will consider Jesus because of what they heard that night, but at least they heard something different than the fire and brimstone shortangel and Solya have mentioned.

Copperfox

07-16-2008, 10:19 AM

Ephinie

07-16-2008, 10:39 AM

Yielding to emotion at the expense of truth does not honor God in the long run. While this guy was so busy being ashamed of Christian civilization, did he find one moment to acknowledge the fact--not the "opinion," the CONCRETE FACT--that NOT ONE Crusade would ever have been launched into the land of Israel if not for the MUSLIM nations, in their case OBEYING their actual core teachings, FIRST spending whole generations waging wars of unprovoked aggression which included conquering large parts OF EUROPE?
That is exactly what I learned about the Crusades in college (more specifically while doing graduate work), and it was in a state university that I learned that - not a Christian one. So the idea that the Crusades were a response to rapid Islamic expansion through use of the sword is something that is easily digested in a non-Christian setting. Though granted, I do not know the personal beliefs of anyone else who was in my class or of the professor. I'm sure some were Christians, but I doubt all of them were. And while there was a lot of class argument on some things, the idea that it was a response was never debated.

I'm not sure how I feel about Christians (or any group specifically) "apologizing" for the actions of others in the past. I can see why some people do it, but the idea of it makes me queasy. I think part of the reason is that I grew up in an environment where I was always being blamed for other people did, and I was forced to apologize for other people's actions constantly (then get punished when I refused). So I really do not see any justice or - more to the point - productivity in apologizing for things other Christians did ages in the past before we were born. Besides, I think apologizing for the actions of other Christians who were not following Christ's example puts us in a precarious position - ESPECIALLY if we are trying to witness and preach the gospel. How much would someone want to be part of a religion when the first thing they hear is, "Yeah, they were wrong back then; but we've finally got it right now!" I think it would probably be better, if the subject of specific atrocities comes up, to simply state firmly that the people committing those actions were not representing Christ in what they did.

But dang, I hate it when people throw the Crusades in my face... because you know, based on everything I've studied about them, I'm pretty convinced they were in the right for at least the first half of them. After the third Crusade, things really went downhill fast. But at least the first three, I think, had good reasons behind it.

Copperfox

07-16-2008, 12:13 PM

Miguel Cervantes, author of "Don Quixote," was a personal participant in the sea-battle of Lepanto, which was a counteroffensive against Turkish aggression in the Mediterranean. Without that great victory for Western civilization, whatever of Europe even remained free would have been restricted from direct sea access to Africa and Asia Minor.

Ephinie, you're right about us cutting our own feet out from under ourselves by excesses of apology. Pope John Paul II was perfectly right to apologize for the Catholic persecution of the Hussites in Eastern Europe; but not _every_ forceful action by _any_ European power was _always_ the same thing as a Ku Klux Klan lynching. Under the reign ot Mao Tse-Tung, Chinese people were constantly forced to participate in "self-criticism meetings," where they were presupposed to have shortcomings which they must confess to commissars instead of to priests. But _this_ "confessional" was not meant to make them better people; it was meant to keep them so beaten down in self-contempt that they would never question their masters. In modern America, likewise, Mao's inheritors in academia want Christians to be trapped in endless self-criticism, so that we won't find the aggressiveness to protest as our Constitutional rights are being stolen incrementally.

inkspot

07-16-2008, 12:23 PM

Clearly Don Wilson and his fellow Christians at Reed University were not taking part in self-criticism sessions. They rightly understood the anti-Christian feeling at Reed (the one-room prayer chapel they set up on Easter had been trashed by students and desecrated in revolting ways). They were well aware that the students on that campus are tolerant of everything and everyone in the world excepr Christians because they believe that Christians are intolerant, judgmental, self-righteous, mean people who want to kill Muslims and gays.

I am not saying this is true: I am saying this is what the students at Reed believe.

So, one way they felt the Holy Spirit leading them to reach out to students who look at them through such a distorted lens was to demonstrate the very opposite of what those students thought of them -- to point out what Christ commanded and where, they personally had failed. Rather than judging and condemning the pagan students (as the students expected) they confessed their own shortcomings.

The crusades was a small part of it. And in fact, Don records that many of the non-Christian students he spoke with that night told him, "You had nothing to do with that ... You don't have to apologize for that ..." Yet the message was clear: Christians are not hateful, intolerant, judgmental people who want their enemies dead.

I don't think it's fair to say "this guy was so busy being ashamed of western civilization." He was so busy trying to demonstrate love and compassion for students who are far from God, and he saw a way which disarmed their most fervently held beliefs about Christians.

Copperfox

07-16-2008, 12:28 PM

Solya

07-16-2008, 01:07 PM

You know, if I'd run into a Christian who apologised for everything his faith buddies did back in the day... I would probably have asked him while he was still with his faith if it made him apologise that much for past actions. I have been able to handle the idea of eternal hell and damnation just fine back when it was thrown at me, but an apology would definitely have made me laugh about it slightly. Also, it is not about what happened in the past that put me off Christianity all those years ago. It was about what was happening in the present to the Church and its people which made me run away faster than anything else. I am done running now, but sometimes I do wish that I could find more Christians like us here on TDL in real life.

I never have had a problem with the teachings of Christianity. Rather, I have had (and still have) a problem with people using Christianity as an excuse to spread their own fear and hatred into this world. Those people totally make my head spin.

bruiser

07-16-2008, 01:27 PM

I do wish that I could find more Christians like us here on TDL in real life.

I understand exactly what you are saying. It seems like all of the 'Christians' around me at home [well anywhere I assume], except for a few, are either too extreme with what they do trying to force their religion down your throat, or they are not firm enough in what they believe in, like there are people that say that they are Christians but they don't show it.
People that I think are decent examples of Christians are my Great-great Aunt Margret and Uncle Joe. They are nice to everyone and do anything to help anybody. Although Aunt Margret can't go to church because she is too weak and sick, Uncle Joe still goes. They bought me my first Bible, took me to church every Sunday when I was little, everything. I take them as one of the best Christian people that I know.

Elentari

07-16-2008, 01:33 PM

I think my friends have read the same book, Inkspot, because I have heard that story before. I don't want to sound like I'm trivializing it, but it reminded me of an opposite of that Kleenex commercial where the guy is sitting on a big couch in the middle of a city with a box of Kleenex. He invites people to sit down, listens to them as they vent, cry, whatever, then gives them Kleenex. Everyone leaves smiling. I say opposite, because in this sense the Kleenex guy would be doing the talking.

I'm not sure what to think. On one hand, having him sweep the rug out from under them when it came to their arguments against Christianity, by apologizing instead of arguing, seems like a good idea. On the other hand, Solya has a good point--it is not about what happened in the past that put me off Christianity all those years ago. It was about what was happening in the present to the Church and its people which made me run away faster than anything else. I am sure Wilson apologized for things happening today also, but it is a difficult thing apologizing for the behaviors of an entire group, because many of them don't realize you apologized for them and continue to act in the same ways. I truly hope that for those students the seed was planted in their hearts as well as in their minds, that what Wilson did made them re-think their beliefs against Christianity and cause them to look at it again, not as a religion, but as a relationship with Jesus.

inkspot

07-16-2008, 01:48 PM

Then I would ask Wilson this: were those non-Christian students allowed to walk away believing that EVERY professed Christian DURING the time of the Crusades was as evil as the Crusaders are assumed all to have been? And that Christians today are okay ONLY because they've learned their lesson from the more-enlightened secularists?
No, because this wasn't a class about the Crusades or a seminar about who did what to whom. It was an outreach event. Here's what he wrote about the first student who came in, and Don explained he would be confessing to him:

"What are you confessing?" he asked.

"Everything," I told him.

"Explain," he said.

"There's a lot. I will keep it short," I started. "Jesus said to feed the poor and heal the sick. I have never done much about that. Jesus said to love those who persecute me. I tend to lash out, especially if I feel threatened, you know, if my ego gets threatened. Jesus did not mix his spirituality with politics. I grew up doing that. It got in the way of the central message of Christ. I know that was wrong, and I know that a lot of people will not listen to the words of Christ because people like me, who know him, carry our own agendas into the conversation rather than just relaying the message Christ wanted to get across. There's a lot more, you know."

"It' all right, man," Jake said, very tenderly. His eyes were starting to water.

"Well," I said, clearing my throat, "I am sorry for all that."

"I forgive you," Jake said.

So he doesn't specifically address the Crusades; that was just one thing which he mentions having discussed with his friends before they did the outreach. I don't actually know if any of them mentioned the Crusades.

But what I wanted to point out was the idea that perhaps if someone thinks you are intolerant, spiteful, self-righteous, judgmental and have a desire to kill people who disagree with you, then one good way to dispel that notion may be to show them that you are following Christ, but in many ways you have failed, and you are sorry.

I don't know. I just think there might be something to it.

bruiser, that was a really sweet tribute to your aunt and uncle. God bless them. :)

Solya

07-17-2008, 07:53 AM

There is something to it, yes, but it is hidden underneath many layers. Sometimes I just wish people would be better at apologising for the things they have done, you know. Admitting failures seems to be somewhat of a difficult thing to do for most humans. Yet I think it needs to stay at the "I have failed"-level instead of turning into a collective "we have failed". We can only ever speak for ourselves, after all.

Copperfox

07-17-2008, 01:07 PM

Similarly, a certain public figure in the United States has brazenly claimed that there was NOTHING to be proud of in America until she and her husband showed up as saviors. To agree with her out of misplaced humility and overtaxed politeness would be to trample on the memory of MILLIONS of noble, virtuous Americans who came before this arrogant, self-absorbed woman; and it would ever afterward hinder us if we did wish to extol America's positive aspects. Thus with Christians: if in ill-timed meekness we accept the assessment of our own faith given by adversaries who have a self-serving motive to slant the facts, it will ever afterward be harder for us to speak plain truth about what the Christian faith does in fact have to offer.

Hermit of Archenland

07-20-2008, 09:12 AM

I am also irritated by the defensive attitude to the past many Christians have. Yes, there are many examples of the Church in the past having failed to live up to the message of the Gospel (as it still sometimes does today) but that does not mean the Church's entire history has been a catalogue of unremitting evil.

A good example is the Inquisition. This is regarded today as a bunch of fanatics torturing anyone who fell into their hands. But for many centuries the Church did not permit torture at all, and even when this was changed there were severe restrictions on the use of torture in interrogation. I'm not saying the Inquisition was a wonderful organisation of entirely saintly people, but I would much rather be interrogated by the Inquisiton in Medieval Spain on a charge of religious heresy than by the KGB in Stalinist Russia on a charge of political subversion.

All religious organisations have their faults, but secular movements like Fascism and Communism have been responsible for much greater suffering