What Do you think could have happened to Susan?

[blackheart]

Well We all know that C.S. Lewis did not continue the story of Susan but only was mentioned "no longer a friend of narnia".
I'm really curious about your opinions. What could have happen to Susan?

I read this Statement in Wiki

"Susan does not enter into Narnia because she wasn't in the train when the accident happened and she had lost her faith. She remaines alive on Earth, the only one who was left of all the travelers to Narnia."

So does this mean that she will never enter narnia again even if she dies in earth?

[Copperfox]

Well, no one will enter the "mortal" Narnia again after the events of "The Last Battle;" it isn't there anymore. But Aslan's Country, which is Heaven, can be entered as surely from our world as from the Narnian cosmos. It really really sticks in the throat to think of Susan actually ending up being all darned to Heck, and there's no reason why she couldn't go to the altar at a church and be as surely restored to God's fellowship as if He had walked up to her in the form of Aslan and given her the Lion's kiss.

[Charn_Tim]

CF's absolutely right. I have always thought that Susan would have someday "returned to the faith"-especially after going through the pain and anguish of losing her family to a train wreck! Susan very much enjoys material things and falls into the trap of finds her enjoyment in them rather than the One who gives us material things to enjoy. In my mind, after living that lifestyle for a while, she would see the emptiness and shallowness, and would remember the joy, love, hope, and meaning in her younger days (especially narnian days). And as she reflects on the uncertainty and frailty of life, especially helped by seeing how short the lives of her dear family members were, she would eventually realize again what is most important and repent-whether this would take her days or years down the line.

As you might imagine, there have been several stories written about this, one I would particularly recommend is Alaina's (NarnianPrincess) called The Rest of the Story (http://narniafans.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4316). She writes it better than I could express it here!

[blackheart]

In another Thread here. I read about Aslan Saying that Once A king and Queen of Narnia, always a King and Queen of Narnia. That Actually given me relief that Susan despite all is still gonna come back to narnia when she dies. C.S. Lewis once stated in his letter to martin, a young fan that he believed Susan would come back to Narnia in her own way. Surely Susan's story is the most Important and Most Intriguing Unfinished Tales Of Narnia. How I wish C.S. Lewis was still alive today to answer our questions. but I believe that Someday we will get to meet him personally in Aslan's Country. and we will know what really happened to Susan. :)

[Charn_Tim]

Yes, good point, I forgot about Lewis mentioned that in a letter somewhere, so I went ahead and looked it up. He wrote:

The books don't tell us what happened to Susan. She is left alive in this world at the end, having by then turned into a rather silly, conceited young woman. But there is plenty of time for her to mend, and perhaps she will get to Aslan's country in the end.


He also mentions that she was the sort of person who could persuade herself if she wanted to that it was "all nonsense." ( :( ) But given the way she was always quick (although sometimes reluctant) to come to believe again in Aslan in the books (contrast this with the dwarves at the end of the last battle who so tricked themselves that they couldn't even perceive Aslan or any good thing), she would return to belief.

[~Lava~]

One would hope that she got over the silly time in her life; she was a very young adult at the time of LB and probably not as mature as she thought herself to be. Maybe after she has children (hopefully not with a guy like Rabadash or a materialist), she will sober up and return to ardent belief in God. She needn't decide that she thinks that her adventures in Narnia were real again, if she returns to the straight and narrow, Aslan will recieve her service either way.

[inkspot]

Did anyone see the movie "Hook" about Peter Pan after he grew up and married Wendy -- well, actually, Wendy's grand-daughter, I think. Anyway, he was a businessman in our world, but Capt Hook came and kidnapped his children and took them to Never Land! He had to go back and re-learn how to live (and fight) in Never Land to get his kids back. I always think maybe something like that happened to Susan's children; they somehow blundered into Narnia (or the Wood between the Worlds and some other world if there is no Narnia anymore) and then Susan had to recover her own lost memories in order to go after them and save them. And of course, encounter Aslan as he is in that world, and remember him...

That would be cool.

[~Lava~]

I watched it and like it in general, but the principal of it is completely non-book accurate. First, they could have given Moira the name she has in the book (Margaret), Hook and Tink are both dead by the time Wendy is half-grown. And Peter knew how to love a girl as though she were a mother, not as girl-friend.

It would be interesting to see that happen to Susan.

[inkspot]

LOL, I never analyzed the Hook movie that much!

But yah, it was just sort of the effect I was thinking of for Susan, how she could go through the Wood to a whole new world looking for her children and find Aslan in whatever form he takes there, and finally "get it" that he was Jesus, all along, and have an adventure plus get her faith and her kids back.

[~Lava~]

Since Susan was next of kin, she probably had all of Pete and Ed's clothing some of which contained the rings.

[inkspot]

Since Susan was next of kin, she probably had all of Pete and Ed's clothing some of which contained the rings.
Oh, good point! Yes, and maybe she puts them aside, and years later her own children find them and pop off to the wood between the world, and then Susan realizes what has happened and goes after them ... It could work. I quite like that.

[rains1313]

I don't think she will enter Narnia. I think she will go to the London Heaven and then on. She has always been more interested in our world than in Narnia. I am sure that she will/does grieve greatly at the loss of her brothers, sister, and parents. And hopefully this will be the change she needs for her heart and belief.

[Manu]

Hey guys, but do you remember what happened on Prince Caspian? When Lu saw Aslan, Susan did too, as both girls were walking together in the night, when the Pevensie and the dear dwarf Trumpkin were travelling away from telmarines, and in search of faithful hidden Narnians, to fight invasors, remember? Well, Susan knew it was Aslan who they´ve seen, and she denied it showing herself doubtful and leaving the poor Lu with no witness of what she knew she´s seen. Well, sure you remember when Aslan showed Himself to the group and talked to Susan... remember how she was about to cry in front of the great Lion, for what she knew she´s done to free her frustration and fear of travelling alone in the night? Well, I think that when she faced Aslan, in LB, she was one of the creatures that looked at Him with fear and sorrow, but loved Him in the deepest of her heart, dont you people think?
And, again, the author gives us his idea of the end of the world and the final judgement...

Bye!

[inkspot]

Susan never got a chance to look at Aslan in TLB -- she wasn't there.

[Manu]

Susan never got a chance to look at Aslan in TLB -- she wasn't there.

Of course not, Im just saying what I think it could have happened to her. And as she´s been once queen of Narnia, I reckon that facing again the very Lion who created it and gave Susan her crown, would made her realized of how silly she was to pretend Narnia to be an invention of she and her borthers on childhood =P

[Elentari]

The difficulty with figuring out what happens to Susan is that while NARNIA ends, "our world" does not, so there is no Final Judgement for all, just those in the world in which Narnia existed. I always figured that was why Lewis put the Pevensie PARENTS on the train also--so that Lucy could see that the worlds connect from the Mountain. However, since Susan is the only one not in the train wreck, her "fate" is less certain. I agree with whoever said that when she dies she will go to the "England Heaven", and through that place be connected to the others through the Mountain, but I also think that she will need to believe in order to do that. Since Lucy's parents "made it" I always believed that--though they had never met Aslan--they knew his "other Name" like He told Edmund and Lucy to learn. Susan appears to believe in nothing but pleasure, so she would need to begin to believe in Him again in order to be reunited with her family.

As for using the magic rings :) --Excellent thought...but even the Seven Friends weren't entirely sure they would work, and what if Susan ended up in a Charnish place? :eek: No, I'm sure she finds Aslan again through his other name in her own world.

[Anne_Juliet]

It seems to me that Susan's doing the same thing she always did: playing at being a grown up. She's always been the most reluctant when it comes to doing things in Narnia, but she ends up doing the right thing eventually.

[gair]

Have you ever read the Problem of Susan by Neil Gaiman? (you can google it and read it online). I think it is quite an interesting look at what happens to her, and possibly quite realistic??
It might be considered a bit explicit so be warned.

[Catherine]

Much as i hate to think of Susan not going to heaven when she dies, i don't think she will. Susan believed in and loved Narnia for a while, but then later she was willing to throw it away, just like in real life, some people go to church, act like christians, but then when something else comes up they abandon all that, and they end up paying in the long run cause they were never really saved.

[Xenithar]

I personally haven't much wondered what would happen to Susan. Like some of you had said before, perhaps the train wreck would help to change her perspective on some of her beliefs and so on.

One thing I've noticed throughout the books (and I think the movie makers did a good job on this as well) is that Susan was always the hesitant and sometimes a little snobbish person out of the Pevensie group. If she was taking a bad outlook on her adventures in Narnia, perhaps at the time she wished to forget about it because she thought there wasn't much good in what happened to her (although a lot of other characters seem to enjoy their adventures more than not like them). So, as she grew up in the real world after PC, she started to actually believe that the things in Narnia never really happened, and thought that her siblings still believing it was silly, and thus was no longer a friend of Narnia.

Anyways, that's just my theory on Susan '^^

[gair]

one of the things I noticed about Susan in the novels is that she is portayed as quite pathetic, an almost permanent 'don't be so wet, Sue' (which also seems to be pandering to the other stereotype of women - Lucy and Aravis are brave young women, almost as good as a boy; susan and most of the other women are vain and silly, easily frightened and tempted)
Though I think that she is mainly excluded from Narnia for growing up maybe it is because she is so wet and presumably weak willed she ifnds it easy to forget.

[Into the Wardrobe]

The nice thing about Susan is that we don't know what happened to her next. It makes us think about our own lives and where they're headed. It makes us think of our priorities.

I don't think Susan is necessarily weak or silly. She just has a different perspective than Lucy and Aravis. She was strong enough to be made a queen. Aslan could have brought in anyone to fill the role and I don't believe that she was just stuck in the role merely because she was available and they needed another daughter of Eve. She just made different life choices and had a different outlook than the rest of the family. She is left with hope. For now, that's what the world has as well. They must come to know the Lion in this world by the Name he uses here.

I like not knowing in many respects what happened to her. It's all circumspect anyway....Lewis didn't write it. He just left her in this world with hope.

[Lucy Fan]

I think I remember reading that Susan just sort of grew up and stopped believing in Narnia and that's why she is no longer considered a friend to narnia. But, I mean, I am sure Aslan would welcome her into his country. :)

[waterhogboy]

one of the things I noticed about Susan in the novels is that she is portayed as quite pathetic, an almost permanent 'don't be so wet, Sue' (which also seems to be pandering to the other stereotype of women - Lucy and Aravis are brave young women, almost as good as a boy; susan and most of the other women are vain and silly, easily frightened and tempted)
Though I think that she is mainly excluded from Narnia for growing up maybe it is because she is so wet and presumably weak willed she ifnds it easy to forget.

I agree with you as to the reasons Susan didn't come back to Narnia, however, I don't think it was because she didn't have more 'male' characteristics like Lucy and Aravis. Just different personalities. Men can be just as wet and weak willed!

[Elentari]

I agree with you as to the reasons Susan didn't come back to Narnia, however, I don't think it was because she didn't have more 'male' characteristics like Lucy and Aravis. Just different personalities. Men can be just as wet and weak willed!

While I disagree with the concept that Lucy and Aravis were "just as good as a boy", that IS to an extent, the way they were viewed by Shasta. ;) I'm not sure what Gair meant, but I don't think the characteristics mentioned in Lucy/Aravis were referred to as "male". Really they are just honorable ones not found in all men OR in all women.

I DO agree, though, that Lucy and Aravis--and Jill--are girls with traits (inner strength, bravery, and wits) that Lewis obviously thought played a significant role in their character development and attitude.

As an adult--as show in HBB--Susan is quiet and gentle, but not weak and certainly not vain and silly. She doesn't "go to battle" like Lucy, who happens to fight in a feminine manner, because that is not in her personality (regardless of "movie Susan", grown-up Susan was NEVER referred to as participating in battles).

The only woman I know of in any of the Chronicles who is "weak and silly" is Aravis' friend Lasaraleen, so I don't know who "most of the other women" that Gair refers to are. :)

While Susan cannot be truthfully labeled weak-willed or NOT brave, she is indeed a sort of "wet-blanket" with difficulty tapping into her imagination. She does not return to Narnia because she cannot believe in what she cannot see. She believes in Narnia and Aslan when she is THERE, but once back in England with no "hope" of returning--that she knows--she turns her back to Narnia and does not, like her brothers and sister, try to discover Aslan's other Name.

[gair]

While I disagree with the concept that Lucy and Aravis were "just as good as a boy", that IS to an extent, the way they were viewed by Shasta. ;) I'm not sure what Gair meant, but I don't think the characteristics mentioned in Lucy/Aravis were referred to as "male". Really they are just honorable ones not found in all men OR in all women.

I DO agree, though, that Lucy and Aravis--and Jill--are girls with traits (inner strength, bravery, and wits) that Lewis obviously thought played a significant role in their character development and attitude.


The only woman I know of in any of the Chronicles who is "weak and silly" is Aravis' friend Lasaraleen, so I don't know who "most of the other women" that Gair refers to are. :) .

Part of the problem I think is the inherent sexism of the 1950s when Lewis was writing. Also bearing in mind that he did lead a rather cloistered life in an oxford cllege and probably wouldn't have had much contact with women outside domestic staff and the domineering maternal figuires eg matrons at schools, though I do vaguely remember that he looked after some friend's aging mother/wife.

other women I was thinking about were mostly the telemarine women, esp queen prunaprismia (sp) - who should have had red hair grr. I think they could be said to be obsessed with lipstick and nylons and invitations or their equivalents lol. Granted they are the 'enemy' but the superficiality that is a part of being a woman is still criticised. The calormene women very definitely seem to come into the superficial category - agreeing with you especially with lasalareen.
I also think that the star's daughter is very similar to Susan. She is very passive, and takes the domestic role. Actually I think that Susan mainly suffers from being assigned the role of the little mother like anne in the famous five.
It seesm to me that the only characters that use their feminity in an assertive manner are the witches, and this is regarded as threatening. The lady of the green kirtle and the white witch (especially in the magician's nephew) use their sexuality to achieve their goals, and it could be argued that the lipsticks and nyons and invitations could be a represntation of susan's discovery of her sexuality, and this would be feared, adulthood and sexuality equals loss of innocence (too much blake sorry)

While Susan cannot be truthfully labeled weak-willed or NOT brave, she is indeed a sort of "wet-blanket" with difficulty tapping into her imagination. She does not return to Narnia because she cannot believe in what she cannot see. She believes in Narnia and Aslan when she is THERE, but once back in England with no "hope" of returning--that she knows--she turns her back to Narnia and does not, like her brothers and sister, try to discover Aslan's other Name.

agreeing with you there.

sorry, i do english lit and tend to get carried away and over analyse. And as yoyu may have guessed, I do feel quite stongly about susan and her fate

I may have contradicted myself several times. Too many ideas in my head.

[Elentari]

sorry, i do english lit and tend to get carried away and over analyse. And as yoyu may have guessed, I do feel quite stongly about susan and her fate

I enjoy English lit as well, but the thing to remember is not to read too much into stories. I will agree with you that Lewis tended to not portray adult women very nicely (Mrs. Macready, Eustace's mother, etc.) However as these women were also as NON-feminine as they come, it may have less to do with sexism and more to do with the loss of appreciation for true feminism in modern culture. I do believe Lewis may have been intimidated or simply uncomfortable around women...with the later exception of Joy.

I have always interpreted Susan's liking for nylons, invitations, and lipstick to be a form of materialism--preferring things over friendships.

The style of Lewis' writing is definitely from a perspective that could anger people who think boys and girls should be treated the same (I could add many quotes about girls not supposed to be fighting and all sorts of things about boys and girls being "inherently" different).

other women I was thinking about were mostly the telemarine women, esp queen prunaprismia (sp) - who should have had red hair grr.
I DO agree with that!!! :)

also think that the star's daughter is very similar to Susan. She is very passive, and takes the domestic role.

?????????????????????? The Star's Daughter is NOT passive. She doesn't have enough of a role to be ANYTHING. By the time her character could be extended (as Rilian's mum), the poor dear is already dead. Her role in TOTAL is "the fairy tale princess that Caspian marries so that the book has a fairy tale-ish ending and Rilian can have a mum that readers have "met" before".

It seesm to me that the only characters that use their feminity in an assertive manner are the witches, and this is regarded as threatening. The lady of the green kirtle and the white witch (especially in the magician's nephew) use their sexuality to achieve their goals

I wouldn't use the word assertive. That's too positive. They use an IMAGE of themselves, hiding what is really there (evil), to deceive men using themselves as bait (in Rilian's case with the GW) or as someone who can help them achieve an end (in Edmund's case with the WW). That is NOT femininity, it's deception employing physical means. The WW is NOT feminine in ANY of her actions or behavior, though the Lady of the GK does employ her "beauty" to ensnare.

ANYWAY, I'm way off topic. :)

Glad we agree on why Susan can't return, regardless of what nylons "signify".
;)

[gair]

lol ok

how about nylons signifying an item of clothing you wear on your legs?
off topic ish I'd call them tights. How about you?

[Elentari]

lol ok

how about nylons signifying an item of clothing you wear on your legs?
off topic ish I'd call them tights. How about you?

We now pause for a commercial break...

The opaque ones are tights, like the black or white ones I had to wear when I was little :rolleyes:...the sheer ones in "skin tones" are nylons. :D

No matter what you call them, though, nylons are EVIL! :mad:

::laughs::

Now back to the conversation originally in progress...:D

[gair]

would any other member of the forum care to take the floor?

if not...

I remember when I was very small, the first time i read the last battle accepting quite happily that susan had been ousted from narnia simply because she had become girly, and liked silly things like lipstick (bleagh) nylons (bleagh bleagh) and invitations over amazing things like talking animals, sword fights and a ginourmous lion -this was before i even knew what symbolism meant.
And now I have re read it several times I am still inclined to believe that she is ousted from Narnia for becoming girly. . It would seem that faith and feminity are mutually exclusive. The feminity I am thinking of isn't simply having 2 x chromosomes; it is being concious of the fact and flaunting it - not necessarily in a a lascivious manner I hasten to add. So I'm still going with the idea that the nylons are a symbol of sexuality. And I agree they can show commercialism and frivalry too. They are a driving force behind the desirabilty of women as objects. Grr.
Also lending weight to this argument is Miss Polly Plummer. Possibly going with stereotypical old maid idea, but you could assume that she had avoided being sexualised, avoided feminity, and looks down on it, regarding it as very silly, foolish behaviour. It seems that susan is partly criticised for having reached adulthood without having reached maturity. She's yet to reach that -they don't necessarily come together.
And I do think susan's behaviour is a bit daft , but at least it is given that there is the possibility that this obsession with lipstick and nylons is just a phase and she will cease to flaunt her feminity and mature - and presumably believe in narnia again.

OK point taken about Rilian's mum. But the domestic role I meant was rather like anne's from the famous five by enid blyton. The little mother. Also slightly pathetic and always 'don't be so wet'. Rather like susan in llw and pc.

The green witch and jadis (a dem fine woman as Uncle andrew would say) use their beauty - a feminine wile -to get their own way. Not particualrly commendable behaviour, but it works. Perhaps it is the shallowness and weakness of men who are so easily overcome by a bit of beauty that is the real problem? They are very lacking in other traditional feminine qualities though.

I'm beginning to confuse myself now. Meh.

[Elentari]

I remember when I was very small, the first time i read the last battle accepting quite happily that susan had been ousted from narnia simply because she had become girly, and liked silly things like lipstick (bleagh) nylons (bleagh bleagh) and invitations over amazing things like talking animals, sword fights and a ginourmous lion -this was before i even knew what symbolism meant.

I didn't read the books until middle school, though that was back in the mid-90s. ;) As I may have mentioned previously, I have often had a problem with readers inserting symbolism in a story where it was not needed, though possibly relevant. This mainly stemmed from high school English teachers who would say "what the author meant was..." and then say something that would be completely contradicted in the author's own words, provided you cared enough to learn about the author. (For example, the Chronicles are not allegory, they are suppositional.) However, the only purpose of this rant is to lead me to say I STILL have not grasped the purpose or merit of symbolism since I prefer to take books at "face value". :) I do not argue, however, that such symbolism does not exist for those who wish to find it.

And now I have re read it several times I am still inclined to believe that she is ousted from Narnia for becoming girly. . It would seem that faith and feminity are mutually exclusive. The feminity I am thinking of isn't simply having 2 x chromosomes; it is being concious of the fact and flaunting it - not necessarily in a a lascivious manner I hasten to add. So I'm still going with the idea that the nylons are a symbol of sexuality. And I agree they can show commercialism and frivalry too. They are a driving force behind the desirabilty of women as objects. Grr.

I am confused by your line about faith and femininity being mutually exclusive. What do you mean by this? I consider myself a very feminine lady AND I relate primarily to Lucy as the sister I connect with most in the story (Susan drives me nuts). I don't think femininity itself was the cause for Susan's "downfall"...but the MISUSE of her femininity. The "fake" kind, based on nylons and makeup...The "worldly" femininity so to speak. This femininity tells women they must be tall, thin, and wearing the latest Prada in order to be a "woman". To argue it is femininity ITSELF that is bad is to say that Polly, Lucy, Aravis, Jill, and Caspian's Lady were not feminine, which is a high insult since NONE of them acted the same as the boys EVER. They may have fought or done daring things, but all in a way unique to them as girls (females). Perhaps this is what you meant, I don't know.

Also lending weight to this argument is Miss Polly Plummer. Possibly going with stereotypical old maid idea, but you could assume that she had avoided being sexualised, avoided feminity, and looks down on it, regarding it as very silly, foolish behaviour. It seems that susan is partly criticised for having reached adulthood without having reached maturity. She's yet to reach that -they don't necessarily come together.

When I read The Last Battle I do not see a "typical" old maid! Look at it this way--whether or not she ever liked Digory enough to marry him, which I don't believe, obviously they were SUCH good friends that they'd rather be single and best friends than married to anyone else. This hardly makes Polly someone who "looks down on" sexuality. She was still a feminine woman, I am sure she viewed marriage as a positive thing, just not something she was able or willing to be a part of, for whatever reason. Choosing singleness does not in any way mean you think sexuality or marriage is "silly" or "foolish".

I DO think you nailed it HERE: "It seems that susan is partly criticised for having reached adulthood without having reached maturity. She's yet to reach that -they don't necessarily come together."

THAT I can agree with 100%. Susan is criticized for GROWING UP, she is not criticized for MATURING. Somewhere else, possibly here earlier or on another thread, we discussed the difference between being childISH and childLIKE. Digory, Polly, and honestly Peter himself were considered "adults" by Lewis, yet they are not "punished" for it, as Susan is. Susan's flaw is growing up TOO QUICKLY and loosing the child-LIKE faith of the others--including Digory and Polly who are VERY grown up, but not FAITHLESS. For Lewis, growing up and believing in Narnia were NOT mutually exclusive, but Susan TREATED them as such. Add all your symbolism to THAT idea and we may agree. :)

And I do think susan's behaviour is a bit daft , but at least it is given that there is the possibility that this obsession with lipstick and nylons is just a phase and she will cease to flaunt her feminity and mature - and presumably believe in narnia again.

There, you used the right word again--flaunt. A MISUSE of her femininity, not a fault of femininity itself.

I'm a bit of a stickler for this--she doesn't need to believe in Narnia again, she needs to believe in ASLAN again.

OK point taken about Rilian's mum. But the domestic role I meant was rather like anne's from the famous five by enid blyton. The little mother. Also slightly pathetic and always 'don't be so wet'. Rather like susan in llw and pc.

I've never read it, so I can't say. However, the "little mother" role has been done quite well without being like Susan. I'm thinking of The Five Little Peppers and some other books I can't remember the titles of at present. I do believe though that Lewis made her "little mother" role the way it was to LEAD INTO her "growing up" too fast, not because of any great maturity on her part.

I'm beginning to confuse myself now. Meh.

It's alright to contradict yourself if it proves you're thinking. :)

[gair]

I

The "fake" kind, based on nylons and makeup...The "worldly" femininity so to speak. This femininity tells women they must be tall, thin, and wearing the latest Prada in order to be a "woman".

:)

that is what I meant =)

you have put the words in my head where i want them, thankyou =)

enhanced feminity (by lipstick and nylons =D)

[~Lava~]

Had Susan made the right choices in her life, she would have been with the other friends of Narnia at the train station. She instead chose the easy way out and went for materialistic things than true faith. I hold that Lewis had no intention of being sexist nor do I think that he had something against adult women. There are three adult women (from our world) in the Chronicles who Lewis treats with the same dignity that he does the males, they are the adult Lucy and the adult Polly and Nellie (Queen Helen). He draws a line very distinctly between the women who are good, moral, and faithful and those who are silly, frivolous, and/or evil. Unfortunately our beloved Susan falls into latter category, she forsakes the gentle virtues that she was taught as a queen of Narnia to embrace the silly frivolity common of a materialistic daughter of the 1940's and 50's. She chooses nylons and make-up (the must haves of a European girl of society during the time) over faith and Lewis leaves her stripped of all her former dignity and any really valuable friendships.

It is not so with Lucy, Polly, Mrs. Pevensie, Aravis, Helen, Swanwhite, or Stargirl. They do not chose the wrong path and so they (all as adults) go to Aslan's Country. Jill, though not quite an adult, also reaps the benefits of her decisions. No Lewis was not sexist, he made equal use of idiotic adults (of both sexes) and idiotic children (also of both sexes).

[MrBob]

"It seems that susan is partly criticised for having reached adulthood without having reached maturity. She's yet to reach that -they don't necessarily come together."

gair, I agree that this is a great point. It makes what the Friends, particularly Jill and Polly stand out even more. She was no longer a friend for one reason: she stopped believing in Narnia.

But then Jill and Polly elaborate. Jill made the "lipstick" comment, ending with the idea that she was too much interested in growing up. Polly then elaborated that Susan was not actually as grown up as she thought. "Her whole idea is to race to the silliest time of one's life as quick as she can and then stop there as long as she can."

That does not describe a mature person. From what I take from that, her interest in boys was superficial and Susan was more interested in her social calendar being full than in having meaningful relationships.

The detractors of Lewis get too caught up in the lipstick quote and forget about the rest of what Jill and Polly say. In a sense, Susan was shallow. She turned her back on her family and faith and was interested more in attracting boys than in getting to know them.

MrBob

[Elentari]

"It seems that susan is partly criticised for having reached adulthood without having reached maturity. She's yet to reach that -they don't necessarily come together."

gair, I agree that this is a great point. It makes what the Friends, particularly Jill and Polly stand out even more. She was no longer a friend for one reason: she stopped believing in Narnia.

But then Jill and Polly elaborate. Jill made the "lipstick" comment, ending with the idea that she was too much interested in growing up. Polly then elaborated that Susan was not actually as grown up as she thought. "Her whole idea is to race to the silliest time of one's life as quick as she can and then stop there as long as she can."

That does not describe a mature person. From what I take from that, her interest in boys was superficial and Susan was more interested in her social calendar being full than in having meaningful relationships.

The detractors of Lewis get too caught up in the lipstick quote and forget about the rest of what Jill and Polly say. In a sense, Susan was shallow. She turned her back on her family and faith and was interested more in attracting boys than in getting to know them.

MrBob


WHICH, to add on to Mr. Bob's wisdom, she SHOULD have learned as an adult in Narnia...She had enough problems with kings fighting over her you'd think she'd realize how stupid it was. Interestingly enough, the only one mentioned in detail is Rabadash so you could also wonder if anyone remotely interesting or handsome ever pursued Queen Sue. ;) Regardless, it is surprising Susan chose the path she did since Aslan gave her a taste of it and she should have learned what was important and what was not.

Just a random interesting thought. :D

[~Lava~]

For that matter Lucy had quite few admirers too, what about hers.

[Elentari]

For that matter Lucy had quite few admirers too, what about hers.

Well, other than the fact we never find out how admired she is in England or she doesn't seem to put much importance to it, compared to Sue, and she seems to consistently have her head on straight...Either she learned something Susan did not or she retained something Susan did not. ::shrugs::

[inkspot]

This is an interesting observation: Susan in TLB book has done exactly what Peter in PC film has done: forgotten the lessons of a short lifetime as a Narnian royal. It seems inconceivable that she should be so interested in the superficialities of adolescence, after her royal upbringing and experience as a Queen of Narnia. We are sorry for her, astounded by her blindness. But this fault, in the books, is restricted to Susan alone. In PC film, Susan's character belies hints of this future, but Peter's character is in full-on forgetfullness mode. He behaves as if he never were a king of Narnia. Which is something which irks me about the film. :(

I'll agree on the other counts with Elentari (surprise!) and MrBob. Susan's problem is her silliness and preoccupation with things which are fleeting, ephemeral, when the others have remembered what is truly important.

[gair]

it's funny how susan for all her flaws- maybe because of her flaws- captures people's imaginations and attention far more frequently than any of the other characters

[inkspot]

Because her fate is the only one left unknown, we are free to speculate and make fan fics about what happened to her. It was an interesting choice on Lewis' part to leave her out of TLB.

[Elentari]

it's funny how susan for all her flaws- maybe because of her flaws- captures people's imaginations and attention far more frequently than any of the other characters

Maybe because we feel sorry for her? Maybe because as "the only one left out" we try to "figure her out"? Maybe because we can't figure out WHY she is the way she is. (umm, was:rolleyes:) Maybe so we can avoid her mistakes and NOT miss out on Aslan's Country! :)

[gair]

I think it's probably because she is the most human.

[Elentari]

I think it's probably because she is the most human.

Only if human=worldly/materialistic/easily seduced.

[gair]

human because she isn't perfect.

(I was thinking about this while I was doing my music practice)

I think she is most like ordinary people. Worldly, materialistic and easily seduced as you put it.
The other children(? - I'm never sure what they are once they go into narnia again) are admirable but distant. Something to aspire to rather than relatable.

*sigh* roll on the new term then I won't have to literarise on a forum. Or make up new words.

[inkspot]

LOL! Literarise! Any word can be an action word if you just verb it.
:)

[I_Believe]

In my mind sue realized how silly she was and made it to aslans country. I will just as Jack when i see him in heaven.:D

[Aslan'sLittleGirl101]

well i think susan would be able to go back. if one person is saved but stops believing in heaven, the person is still going to heaven no matter what. that is what happened to susan in my opinion.

[I_Believe]

well i think susan would be able to go back. if one person is saved but stops believing in heaven, the person is still going to heaven no matter what. that is what happened to susan in my opinion.

No thats not true. If you stoped believeing in Jesus your not going to Heaven. You have to believe in Him in order to go to Heaven. You have to confess that your a sinner and repent in order to go to Heaven. Jesus will always love you sinner or not. But you have to ask him into your heart in order to live forever in Heaven. If sue confess that she is a sinner and asks Jesus into her heart she will see her family again and be with them and all her Narnian friends forever.

[inkspot]

Two discussions at once here.

1. If Susan in our world is a believer in Christ, then we know she is going to heaven. What we would like to believe, and what Jack said he believed happened, is that she also rediscovered the reality of Aslan/Narnia and reached Aslan's country, too.

2. Whether a person who once accepts Christ as Savior remains saved forever, no matter what they do or come to believe later. This is a discussion better moved to the "Narnia and Christianity" forum with its own thread. Let's don't pursue it any further here, because this is mainly about Susan. And we do know that, in her case, "Once a king or queen in Narnia, always a king or queen in Narnia."

[~Lava~]

Yeah but Susan (at least temporarily) abdicated her throne. (that is all I am going to say about it).


We need a clarification as to what the purpose of this thread is, is it "What could have happened to Susan if she had not stopped believing?" or is it "What do you think happened to Susan after the end of TLB?"

I already put my two cents in about what could have happened to Susan if she hadn't stopped believing so now I will go into one of my pet theories as to what did happen after TLB:

Susan (dressed in black) goes to the police station to collect her family's personal effects. Very little is left but she has the contents of the boys' pockets, a little bag with Lucy's journal, as well some of her parents things, she is quite numb by the thought of them being dead but she spends the afternoon going through their stuff. By and by she gets to the rings in the one of the boys' pockets (probably Peter's). She vaguely remembers that there was something supposedly spectacular about the rings but completely forgets what they are very pretty though so while carefully hugging Lucy's Journal which she had located a while back she puts her hand in the pocket to try on one of the rings. The bedroom that she was sitting in fades away and she is standing in the Wood Between the Worlds. Near her are two depressions that were once ponds and also the pond that she just came out of. She sits there in the calm and decides to read Lucy's Journal which has the accounts of all of the adventures in Narnia save the one that just started. As she reads a ginger-colored cat starts playing with her side, eventually she comes to the part where she finds that none were going to Narnia anymore she finds Lucy's struggles to get over the fact that she could no longer be with Aslan in person and then reads through where Lucy finds the truth to be that Aslan was Jesus and he is always with her. Finally she finishes the book with a better understanding of her sister and a little ashamed of the part she played in making her sister's transition from being a Narnian Queen to being an ordinary English woman difficult. Then she notices the tawny cat that she has been unconscienciously petting this whole time. The cat is purring and she just wants to hug it. She eventually leaves and goes back to England and picks up her life but she always goes back to the calm place that we know as the Wood between the Worlds as a place of solace and always the cat is with her when she is there. Gradually she needs it or her heart is not at peace during the week. She starts having vivid memories flood back into her mind about her adventures in Narnia helped along by Lucy's Journal and those of her brothers which she found in their rooms. She grows to realize how silly she has been (especially when she reads Peter's journal and finds how bothered and worried he was about her) and starts trying to foster really meaningful practices in her life. One day after several years of this weekly routine, she goes to the Wood Between the World and instead of her small feline companion there is Aslan standing in all his glory and he takes her to his world.

[Narnia_Lover_4_ever]

OK after reading to page 3 I could hardly contain myself
I LOVE ALL YOU PEOPLE!!!!

Out of all of my friends I was/ am really the only one who goes past being upset about Susan. I try to figure out WHY ON EARTH would she stop believing after reading several good opinions I shall now state my own

In reference to those that said Lucy & Aravis were "better than"Susan because of their different and rather tougher personalities I say to you AMEN!

To those which said that she became materialistic i also say AMEN!

I just seriously like agree with all of you.

Now my thing is this In TLB Aunt Polly & i think Lucy said about Susan that she was now a brat who only cared about being populer(e.g. invitations) :mad:looking pretty(lipstick):mad: and being not just girly but umm how would i say this trying to impress people:mad:(nylons etc.. dont ask me how this is what i got out of it. Use your imagination..)

OK the thing about Lucy and Aravis is that they are TOTALLY (REPEAT) TOTALLY different from Susan and if you remember in HHB Lucy and Aravis become like best friends. I agree that Aravis' friend and Queen Pruna(however you spell it) They are um how would I say... You know those like books about knights and kings how the girls always just sat about and did nothing? only cared about their appearance and what people thought about them?

Well Susan reminds me of someone like that. When she comes back from PC she is so worried what her "friends"will think about her if she tries telling them at school that by the time she is confronted with Narnia she totally has BRAINWASHED herself into believing it started when:
1) they were at the Professors bored on a few rainy days they made up this imaginary world where animals could talk and they became Kings and Queens.

2) they were on the train staion platform waiting for the train. Started talking about "their old game"and that was all.

Now fast forward to VODT she is going to america because
her parents think that shes the prettiest one she should umm go.... proves that sometimes they(parents) make no sense(no offense to anyone but COME ON!


So now she is like oh, I am better than Lucy and Edmund. She doesnt want this game as she calls it that she played to affect her life and her plans. Totally forgetting the thigns aslan went for her and her family (LLW)

So I really have come to the extent so far Iw ill type about her after TLB when my fingers have had a chance to recouperate.

xD thank you all for your time

LONG LIVE ASLAN:)

[inkspot]

We love you too. :)

I like your analysis. I will, of course, draw a spiritual conclusion from what you said:

Just as Susan convinces herself that Narnia was an imaginary game because she doesn't want the lessons she learned there to impact her pursuit of (silly) pleasures in this world, sometimes we as believers in Christ are mightily tempted ot succumb to the temptation to put aside the lessons we have learned from Jesus when we realize they may interfere with some (silly) pleasure we want to pursue.

When I was a younger woman and wanted to live a wild lifestyle, of course I still had in my head all the Sunday School lessons and even the personal closeness I had felt to Christ growing up, but I convinced myself that it was sort of imaginary, that Jesus wasn't all that interested in me and what I was doing as long as I wasn't hurting anyone ... and so I sort of "forgot" about Him and pursued what seemed good to me at the time.

It was like the way Susan forced herself to "forget" about the True Narnia so she could ignore the lessons she had learned there.

[gair]

When I was a younger woman and wanted to live a wild lifestyle, of course I still had in my head all the Sunday School lessons and even the personal closeness I had felt to Christ growing up, but I convinced myself that it was sort of imaginary, that Jesus wasn't all that interested in me and what I was doing as long as I wasn't hurting anyone ... and so I sort of "forgot" about Him and pursued what seemed good to me at the time.

It was like the way Susan forced herself to "forget" about the True Narnia so she could ignore the lessons she had learned there.

yup.



also, I was re-reading 'The Problem of Susan' and it talks about resenting a god that could leave one person of a family behind from a train wreck.
Does anyone think that an event like that could completely shatter an already tenuous belief?
here's a link to the story if you're intersted http://www.impalapublications.com/blog/index.php?/archives/2396-The-Problem-of-Susan,-by-Neil-Gaiman.html
I think i mentioned it earlier in the thread.

[Narnia_Lover_4_ever]

Yes exactly inkspot. Couldn't0 have said it better. I am sorry I didn't point it out. My sister started crying.:o It is true that happens to people, they just need to how would you say it? Wake up and realize what they are doing is wrong

[Elentari]

yup.
also, I was re-reading 'The Problem of Susan' and it talks about resenting a god that could leave one person of a family behind from a train wreck.
Does anyone think that an event like that could completely shatter an already tenuous belief?
here's a link to the story if you're intersted...
I think i mentioned it earlier in the thread.

If this is the same one you posted before, gair, I'll remind the readers that it was a bit graphic. I'm 23 and was disturbed by the some of the imagery. I felt a lot of it was completely unnecessary to Susan's story.

As for your question, gair, I think it's complicated. What would I do if my entire family died together in an accident and I alone was left? I truly don't know. I know what I HOPE I would do. And that is what I will say here. While it is quite possible to allow your pain to lead to bitterness and to resentment, it also does nothing to make anything better. It solves nothing. A person who allows pain to cause resentment to grow in their hearts (and it is something you allow, not something that happens without your knowing) will only be in MORE pain and the pain will heal less slowly, if really at all.

Death in a family is always a tragedy--my church family is experiencing that pain today after a car accident. Yet I still believe it causes more pain to allow resentment than it does to run to the arms of a loving God who will walk with you IN your suffering.

To connect this to Susan, yes she is alone. Yes her entire family is gone. YES, this is INCREDIBLY traumatizing. I can't recall why the Pevensie parents were on the train, and I can't recall where Susan was at the time, so I don't know WHY she may not have been on the train...Maybe she was on a trip, Lewis doesn't really say. But I still think he was making a significant point by NOT having her there.

I have never connected with Susan as a character--not when I was 10, 12, 14, 18, 21, or now at 23. She may be the most "human" to some readers, but I usually just wanted to shake her. Honestly, until joining this forum I never gave a thought about what happened to Sue.

So I agree its tragic. I hope she came to rely on the Only One who could help, instead of falling into despair. I hope she DID come to realize what she missed and regain some of it. I hope she DID eventually make it to Aslan's Country. I sincerely hope that she did NOT begin to resent God, just as I hope that others who share her grief do not let resentment grow in their hearts.

[~Lava~]

She could have become bitter, yes, but I still like this idea that I posted earlier today:

Susan (dressed in black) goes to the police station to collect her family's personal effects. Very little is left but she has the contents of the boys' pockets, a little bag with Lucy's journal, as well some of her parents things, she is quite numb by the thought of them being dead but she spends the afternoon going through their stuff. By and by she gets to the rings in the one of the boys' pockets (probably Peter's). She vaguely remembers that there was something supposedly spectacular about the rings but completely forgets what they are very pretty though so while carefully hugging Lucy's Journal which she had located a while back she puts her hand in the pocket to try on one of the rings. The bedroom that she was sitting in fades away and she is standing in the Wood Between the Worlds. Near her are two depressions that were once ponds and also the pond that she just came out of. She sits there in the calm and decides to read Lucy's Journal which has the accounts of all of the adventures in Narnia save the one that just started. As she reads a ginger-colored cat starts playing with her side, eventually she comes to the part where she finds that none were going to Narnia anymore she finds Lucy's struggles to get over the fact that she could no longer be with Aslan in person and then reads through where Lucy finds the truth to be that Aslan was Jesus and he is always with her. Finally she finishes the book with a better understanding of her sister and a little ashamed of the part she played in making her sister's transition from being a Narnian Queen to being an ordinary English woman difficult. Then she notices the tawny cat that she has been unconscienciously petting this whole time. The cat is purring and she just wants to hug it. She eventually leaves and goes back to England and picks up her life but she always goes back to the calm place that we know as the Wood between the Worlds as a place of solace and always the cat is with her when she is there. Gradually she needs it or her heart is not at peace during the week. She starts having vivid memories flood back into her mind about her adventures in Narnia helped along by Lucy's Journal and those of her brothers which she found in their rooms. She grows to realize how silly she has been (especially when she reads Peter's journal and finds how bothered and worried he was about her) and starts trying to foster really meaningful practices in her life. One day after several years of this weekly routine, she goes to the Wood Between the World and instead of her small feline companion there is Aslan standing in all his glory and he takes her to his world.

[Kells]

If this is the same one you posted before, gair, I'll remind the readers that it was a bit graphic. I'm 23 and was disturbed by the some of the imagery. I felt a lot of it was completely unnecessary to Susan's story.

As for your question, gair, I think it's complicated. What would I do if my entire family died together in an accident and I alone was left? I truly don't know. I know what I HOPE I would do. And that is what I will say here. While it is quite possible to allow your pain to lead to bitterness and to resentment, it also does nothing to make anything better. It solves nothing. A person who allows pain to cause resentment to grow in their hearts (and it is something you allow, not something that happens without your knowing) will only be in MORE pain and the pain will heal less slowly, if really at all.


It was an unnecessary piece - honestly, it seems like it was written for shock value by a consistently disappointing writer. He clearly knows the books, since Edmund is the only one who mentions being in any pain in the accident - feeling a blow to the head, and he writes about the applewood wardrobe, and I find it horribly sad that "The Problem of Susan" is what he takes from them.

I could never see her letting it go and calling it a freak accident. Even if she wants to keep playing pretend, the rings will be among Peter and Edmund's personal effects - they will not work but she will know what they are, Jill and Eustace will not be found since they did not die on the train, and she knows what links all of them and Lucy hardly seems the sort not to plead with Susan to come with them. Instead, I think she gets the chance to make things right, and tell Aunt Alberta and Uncle Harold what happened and where their boy is.

[lizardy]

She had lost her whole family in a horrobly way, n she's lost her fate, but i believe that she'll find her own way to believe again n go to Narnia when she days.

[inkspot]

She had lost her whole family in a horrobly way, n she's lost her fate, but i believe that she'll find her own way to believe again n go to Narnia when she days.
Welcome Lizardy! I did not see you post before. I agree with you.

[EveningStar]

Let's all have the right tools to solve this puzzle, shall we?

FIRST OFF Susan stopped believing in Narnia. Nowhere, even in The Last Battle, did it say Susan stopped believing in God or in life after death. If the books are to be taken as true accounts of a real place, then let's go by the rules of reality. Only a few dozen people on Earth ever believed in Narnia. That doesn't mean only a few dozen people on Earth are going to Heaven when they die. Even the Apostle Peter didn't have any idea Narnia existed.

SECOND this whole idea of Narnia Heaven, as if it were an exclusive place, reminds me of an old Porky Pig cartoon where he got a powerful spray guaranteed to send those pesky termites straight to Termite Heaven. He put the jet into a hole in the baseboard but it blew back into his face. Moments later we see him rising above the clouds with a harp and a halo, surrounded by a ring of termites with little harps and haloes. Come on folks, you aren't separated from your loved ones for eternity if they choose to go to a "different Heaven" from you. It's not like she'd have to swim the Rio Grande at night to see her brothers and sister again. And yes, of course, when she died her parents and siblings would come to see HER no matter where she appeared. All the "lands" of Heaven are connected.

Now go for it. The truth is out there.

[inkspot]

For those of us who understand that Aslan is Jesus, then a rejection of Aslan is a rejection of Jesus -- which is why in this discussion we often assume that Susan rejected the entire Christ-life when she rejected Aslan and Narnia. Lewis doesn't address her relationship with Aslan in this world, but as we know he intended Aslan to be Jesus in Narnia, it seems a safe assumption that Susan's rejection of Him is complete in both worlds. You can't really say to the Savior, "I love you in Africa and hate you in the USA."

[EveningStar]

Good point, Inky. But could it be she wasn't as open as the others were to Aslan's identity as Jesus? That maybe, nominally, she considered herself Christian? After all, the others suspected, but only had it proven to them undeniably when seeing Aslan in Heaven face to face and he revealed himself to them as El Shaddai.

I see the Pevensies earlier a bit like the apostles walking with Jesus after his resurrection but before his ascension. When he spoke to them of many things including the prophesy that the messiah would die and rise again and their "heart burned strangely within them". Only at the table when they broke bread together did he call them by name and they recognized him...then he vanished.

[Copperfox]

Thank you, Magister, for integrating Heaven! One thing that turned me off when reading the mostly-beloved "Lord of the Rings" was Tolkien's bizarre notion that Heaven in effect WAS segregated: that Elves, Dwarves and Humans each had a _separate_ arrangement for eternity, so that they _never_ would meet again. (Hobbits probably went to the human Heaven.) Thus by choosing to be human, Arwen was causing herself to be parted from her parents for ALL eternity to come. First reading this as a non-Christian teenager, my reaction was, "WHY WOULD any kind of a decent God arbitrarily do this to His creatures, when there would be NO reason why He _couldn't_ let them see each other in the afterlife?"

[inkspot]

Not to wander off into Middle Earth, but did elves ever get an after life? I thought they just lived forever, so they would never have reached the human afterlife ...?

Good point, Magister, about Susan's perhaps being unaware of Aslan's identity as Jesus, and so, still considering herself a Christ follower while at the same time rejecting what she saw as a childish game, Narnia.

[AsbelMctalisker]

One thing that turned me off when reading the mostly-beloved "Lord of the Rings" was Tolkien's bizarre notion that Heaven in effect WAS segregated: that Elves, Dwarves and Humans each had a _separate_ arrangement for eternity, so that they _never_ would meet again. (Hobbits probably went to the human Heaven.)

I always took it that `The undying lands` was just heaven anyway and Elves could get there without dying.

[~Lava~]

We know one thing about Susan that makes me think that Lewis meant that she rejected it all, not just Aslan or Narnia. We know that she became a dreaded "materialist." One that would make Screwtape dance with joy; if indeed he was able to secure her, she would have been one of his greatest prizes. Now she may have stayed nominally Christian, but what is a nominal Christian. I would beg to say that a RINO (Republican In Name Only) or a DINO (Demacrat In Name Only) is far better than a Christian who professes belief with only their lips, not taking it into the realm of their heart. Susan's heart, at least at the time of the Train wreck, was paying homage to the gods of stuff, money, and society not Jesus.

[AsbelMctalisker]

I often wonder if Susan, rather than denying the existance of Narnia had actually forgotten about it.
If she had remained a `friend of Narnia` then its likely she would have been on the train with the others and died with them. Perhaps its necessary that one of the Pevesies survive and live on in England afterwards and Susan in being made to forget to ensure that one does.

[Elentari]

Thank you, Magister, for integrating Heaven! One thing that turned me off when reading the mostly-beloved "Lord of the Rings" was Tolkien's bizarre notion that Heaven in effect WAS segregated: that Elves, Dwarves and Humans each had a _separate_ arrangement for eternity, so that they _never_ would meet again. (Hobbits probably went to the human Heaven.) Thus by choosing to be human, Arwen was causing herself to be parted from her parents for ALL eternity to come. First reading this as a non-Christian teenager, my reaction was, "WHY WOULD any kind of a decent God arbitrarily do this to His creatures, when there would be NO reason why He _couldn't_ let them see each other in the afterlife?"

Actually, Tolkien never specifically says what happens to Men when they die. They simply go beyond the Circles of the World. The dwarves were not made by Illuvatar, which is why they had a separate arrangement. The Elves, immortal, died and went to the Halls of Mandos or traveled to the Undying Lands when they "tired". While this is still different from the Humans, I always had a feeling that it was more or less temporary and perhaps Elves and Men--all Children of Illuvatar--will be reunited after the Last Battle (yes, there's one of those in Middle Earth too!) I never could figure out which group Hobbits belonged in, though Human is most likely. ;) I'd have to go back to The Silmarillion to study Illuvatar's meaning behind it, and since I've just spent 4 hours working on a 2 week unit on The Hobbit for my husband, I'm much too tired for more research.

Not to wander off into Middle Earth, but did elves ever get an after life? I thought they just lived forever, so they would never have reached the human afterlife ...?

Umm...There's the Halls of Mandos and eternity in the Undying Lands. I think that's it, unless my theory is true and Elves and Men are reunited at the end of time. :)

I always took it that `The undying lands` was just heaven anyway and Elves could get there without dying.

Kinda and yes. :) The Undying Lands are pretty much the Elven equivalent of Heaven and yes, they could get there by ship by following the Straight Road, which was hidden from everyone else since the end of the Second Age.

Now back on topic--
We know one thing about Susan that makes me think that Lewis meant that she rejected it all, not just Aslan or Narnia. We know that she became a dreaded "materialist." One that would make Screwtape dance with joy; if indeed he was able to secure her, she would have been one of his greatest prizes. Now she may have stayed nominally Christian, but what is a nominal Christian. I would beg to say that a RINO (Republican In Name Only) or a DINO (Demacrat In Name Only) is far better than a Christian who professes belief with only their lips, not taking it into the realm of their heart. Susan's heart, at least at the time of the Train wreck, was paying homage to the gods of stuff, money, and society not Jesus.

Yup, that's what I think too.

[MrBob]

"Susan stopped believing in Narnia. Nowhere, even in The Last Battle, did it say Susan stopped believing in God or in life after death."

Elenatri, Nowhere in the books does it say that Lucy, Edmund, Peter or any of the other friends was a Christian. He conveniently left that out. The only "religions" that were in the books were Narnian religion and Calormene religion.

Since this is speculative fiction, Susan's religion is also relative to that. She was, in effect, of the Narnian religion and denied it later on.

"SECOND this whole idea of Narnia Heaven, as if it were an exclusive place...Come on folks, you aren't separated from your loved ones for eternity if they choose to go to a "different Heaven" from you. It's not like she'd have to swim the Rio Grande at night to see her brothers and sister again. And yes, of course, when she died her parents and siblings would come to see HER no matter where she appeared. All the "lands" of Heaven are connected."

Exactly. The different Real Lands are all interconnected. Lucy noticed this when she saw Real England and her parents from Real Narnia. They were separated but it would not be a great distress to go and visit. Time there was irrelevant and one could not tell the different between thirty minutes and thirty years. Susan, when she made it to the Real England, would have no problem visiting the Real Narnia after a few hundred years--or a few days.

MrBob

[Vanzetti]

Maybe it won`t sound very optimistic, but I always thought that Susan died and went to hell.

[AsbelMctalisker]

Maybe it won`t sound very optimistic, but I always thought that Susan died and went to hell.

All we actually know is that Susan is`nt present at the Narnian Last Battle and that all the people who ARE present from England have been killed in that world in a rail accident sometime in the late 1940`s. Something she clearly has avoided.
Since she is still quite young (somewhere between 18 and 20) there is no reason to assume that she is dead, she could still be alive in the England of 2008 as an old woman.
A lot of what she is being accused of in the so called `fall` is just normal behaviour for a young woman of her age and background at the time.
All thats happening with her is that she has an active social life and is seriously dating. Her main critics in the book are mainly children somewhat younger than her and an elderly woman who grew up during the Victorian period and probably never married (though its possible that she could have been widowed during WW1), a not altogether unbiased group.
Her most likely fate is I think, is that she met some man shortly after the time of `The Last Battle,` got married and had children just as most women of her time would have done and, as she grew older more of the `Queen Susan the Gentle` part of her character resurfaced.

The only real question to me is whether or not she actually remembers Narnia, if she remembers and denys it then thats one thing. If she has realy forgotten then thats a different story.

[Elentari]

"Susan stopped believing in Narnia. Nowhere, even in The Last Battle, did it say Susan stopped believing in God or in life after death."

Elenatri, Nowhere in the books does it say that Lucy, Edmund, Peter or any of the other friends was a Christian. He conveniently left that out. The only "religions" that were in the books were Narnian religion and Calormene religion.

Did I say that? I'll have to go back and search the thread because I do NOT remember saying that. ::shrugs:: :confused:

[Elentari]

Susan stopped believing in Narnia. Nowhere, even in The Last Battle, did it say Susan stopped believing in God or in life after death."

"Elenatri, Nowhere in the books does it say that Lucy, Edmund, Peter or any of the other friends was a Christian. He conveniently left that out. The only "religions" that were in the books were Narnian religion and Calormene religion. "

Did I say that? I'll have to go back and search the thread because I do NOT remember saying that. ::shrugs:: :confused:

If you look back, you will see that EveningStar made that comment, not Elentari. It's not a big deal, but I was really confused to be quoted when I had no memory of "believing" that at all. :) As for the comment about the book not saying the friends were "Christian", that can be assumed by reading between the lines, but you are correct that Lewis never comes right out and says it.

[gair]

there are some quite obvious hints though, especially at the end of the voyage of the Dawn Treader.
(when I was little I got very confused about how a sheep managed to turn into a lion lol)

[MrBob]

I'm sorry Elentari. I remember telling myself that it was Evening Star whom I was responding to but I must have wrote Elentari by mistake. Oh well, I got the first letter right :o

MrBob

[inkspot]

I'm sorry Elentari. I remember telling myself that it was Evening Star whom I was responding to but I must have wrote Elentari by mistake. Oh well, I got the first letter right :o

MrBob
No problem, MrEd.
:)
Sorry -- couldn't resist.

[~Lava~]

Though the books do not say it specifically, Lewis does imply it. One of the times is at the end of VotDT. Lucy also says something in LB that points to it: "In our world too, a stable once had something inside it that was bigger than our whole world." Also, the children live by the Christian code of Ethics (no evesdropping and such) and the knighthood of the boys is modeled after the Knights of the Round Table.

[MrBob]

"No problem, MrEd.

Sorry -- couldn't resist."


Of course, of course. :p

MrBob

[dayhawk68]

I say she goes crazy, morns, and dies then eventually comes back to Narnia. in that order.;)

[TimmyofOz]

So should I read Neil Gaiman's The problem of Susan?

[MRW]

The dream sequences are rather graphic, but I found it an interesting take on what happened to Susan afterward.

[dayhawk68]

The dream sequences are rather graphic, but I found it an interesting take on what happened to Susan afterward.

What theres a book! oh dern!:eek:

[Petraverd]

I've always held that Susan does find her way back eventually, I can't let myself go back on the 'Once a King or Queen, always a King or Queen.' But I also agree with Lewis in a letter of his, that I don't have handy at the moment, where he writes that a story where she returns would 'probably be longer and more grown-up than I cared to write.' I'll have to find the letter itself before long, but I do think she found her way back after a long and rather grown-up road.