Atlantean Dust and Magical Rings:

[Sir Godfrey]

In Chapter 2 when Uncle Andrew explains his study of magic and the origin of the magic rings. He says that he was given a box of magic dust by Mrs Lefay (whom he believed had fair blood in her). He claims that the box was Atlantean. He then explains after many failed attempts he was unable to use the dust to transport the guinea pigs to another place, at least that was before he discovered that he could sucessfully use the magic dust when it was made into the form of rings. I though this was an intrest subject, since it is by the magical rings that Digory and Polly are transported to The Wood Between the Worlds. And that the dust seems to be quint essential beginnings of the magic that transports us from are world into another world. But then again who is to say Digory and Polly were the first into another world? What if Mrs. Lefay was? or maybe someone else was.

[eggnog]

I dont know. umm i would think that it is from a place of magic but i do not know if it was atlantis. it could have very well been form a different relm or world in the book but it was found in atlantisbecause i could not think of any other place that is mythical on the earth rather than el derodo orthe north pole. ohh it could have been a wish from someone back in that day in the book that someone wished for it for chistmas from santa. lol i do not know.

[Sir Godfrey]

I just read in Chapter 3 is that the dust is from The Wood Between The Worlds and from other places. The Yellow rings are made of the dust from Wood Between The Worlds, thus it wants to get back to the Wood, while the Green Rings are made of dust from other places, thus the Green Rigns want to go elsewhere.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Well, I don't think it's clear that the dust is from "other places" - I seem to remember that it all came from the Wood, somehow. It's just that some of it "wanted" to return and some of it "wanted" to depart. It could have both existed in the same place, just like positive and negative charges do in our world. The question was, how did Uncle Andrew separate the two elements, and capture them in rings?

[Malacandra]

Well, I don't think it's clear that the dust is from "other places" - I seem to remember that it all came from the Wood, somehow. It's just that some of it "wanted" to return and some of it "wanted" to depart. It could have both existed in the same place, just like positive and negative charges do in our world. The question was, how did Uncle Andrew separate the two elements, and capture them in rings?

A wizard did it!

The dust came from Atlantis, but that doesn't mean it originated there - only that the Atlantean wizards managed to get hold of it somehow. Maybe they used dust from another world to visit the Wood Between The Worlds and get the dust...

um...

Wait a minute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down) :eek:

(Btw, Bertrand Russell's argument in the linked article is, as we say, full of it. But this may not be the place to discuss why.)

[MrBob]

Sir Godfrey, reread Chapter 2. Uncle Andrew never claimed it was Atlantean dust. He told Digory, "The Atlantean box contained something that had been brought from another world when our world was only beginning."

Now the fact that the dust was in the possession of Atlanteans means that they also came from that other world. It is just another theory regarding the Atlantean mythology.

MrBob

[Sir Godfrey]

Sir Godfrey, reread Chapter 2. Uncle Andrew never claimed it was Atlantean dust. He told Digory, "The Atlantean box contained something that had been brought from another world when our world was only beginning."

Now the fact that the dust was in the possession of Atlanteans means that they also came from that other world. It is just another theory regarding the Atlantean mythology.

MrBob

Yeah I made a slight error in my writing. I know he claimed the box was from Altantis, but that the dust wasn't Atlantean.

Also please read what I said about Chapter 3, were I realized I was wrong in my assumptions.

[eggnog]

i was no help but it seems like that could be it. but i dont know.

[MrBob]

What I would like to know is how Uncle Andrew could misuse this "dust" so badly that it caused a few guinea pigs to explode.

But seriously, what it means is that the Atlanteans supposedly came from another world into the Wood. Who knows how they got there much less getting the dust from the Wood.

Who knows, maybe Uncle Andrew's godmother came from a race of beings that used to live in the Wood?

MrBob

[eggnog]

or she herself could have been an atlantian

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Well, remember what Aslan says at the end of Prince Caspian - that there are "chinks and chasms" that allow passage through the various worlds, and that there were once more of them and now there are fewer. Perhaps someone found a chink that took them to the Wood Between the Worlds.

[Malacandra]

What I would like to know is how Uncle Andrew could misuse this "dust" so badly that it caused a few guinea pigs to explode.
MrBob

Well, y'know, if only half the molecules in your body suddenly decide to plane-shift away, or if they're instantly replaced by an indeterminate amount of Woods matter, some funny things could happen...

[Sir Godfrey]

Well, remember what Aslan says at the end of Prince Caspian - that there are "chinks and chasms" that allow passage through the various worlds, and that there were once more of them and now there are fewer. Perhaps someone found a chink that took them to the Wood Between the Worlds.

That is a great point PrincOFTheWest. It seems that there could have been many people who entered the Wood Between The Worlds or other worlds through the 'chinks and chasms' or hidden tunnels before Digory and Polly.

[eggnog]

i did not remember that. thanks

[BarbarianKing]

What I would like to know is how Uncle Andrew could misuse this "dust" so badly that it caused a few guinea pigs to explode.

But seriously, what it means is that the Atlanteans supposedly came from another world into the Wood. Who knows how they got there much less getting the dust from the Wood.

Who knows, maybe Uncle Andrew's godmother came from a race of beings that used to live in the Wood?

MrBob
I don't think anybody actually "lived" in the Wood Between the Worlds. That is a place where "nothing happens", the trees just go on growing but nothing else. Remember that Digory and Polly compared it to their attic hideout where nothing happens, it is in the houses (the actual worlds) where people live and eat, and sleep, etc.
Somebody did make it there and perhaps to or from another world.

[inkspot]

Tolkien and Lewis both (if I am remembering correctly) seemed to intimate that Merlin and other "men of the West" came from Atlantis before it sank into the sea. This mention of the Atlantean box was probably meant to evoke that "magical" heritage, as Malacandra said -- the wizards of Atlantis had managed to get some dust from the Wood Between the World.

[buckmana]

Mrs Lefay never opened the box, so she didn't know what was in it.

The odds are, until Uncle Andrew opened it, it had remained closed since the Atlanteans put the dust inside it.

Now, I'm fairly horrified at what happened to the guinea pigs (their proper name is cavy/cavies), since I kept these as pets.

Uncle Andrew mentions experimenting to get the dust "into the right form" for what he needed.

Now, he doesn't go into detail of how this was done, but I'm expecting it was through dark magic.

What if his first attempts were unsuccessful because he was combining the properties of the green and yellow rings?

That would have resulted in an object that tried to take you to the wood and return you from the wood at the same time. Obviously, if you pull on something in two different directions at once, you'll break it (or in this case, kill it).

Which probably explains why the first unfortunate subjects exploded.......

[inkspot]

Good point, Buck.
:)

[Sir Godfrey]

That truly is a great point Buck and I agree. I got the thought as Uncle Andrew is explaining his experiments that he was indeed using dark magic or witchcraft.

[BarbarianKing]

That would have resulted in an object that tried to take you to the wood and return you from the wood at the same time. Obviously, if you pull on something in two different directions at once, you'll break it (or in this case, kill it).
This makes a lot of sense. I always thougt they sort of blew up, or popped as in popcorn, lol. I think that torn apart makes more sense.

[eggnog]

It seems that you could be correct because like you i also thought that they exploded like a little bomb. lol

[Sven-El]

Well, one needs to only look at what Andrew's aunts name is...Mrs. LeFay. Lewis drew the name from Morgan LeFay in the Arthurian Legends. While it may be simply implied that she is Morgan from the legends. It's nto to say she couldn't be both the Morgan from Arthru's stories and an Atlantian. If in That Hideous Strength Merlin is from Atlantis then she could be too.

As for how Morgan could came upon it, if she were Atlantian I'd like to submit Clarke's Third Law: " The Technology of any suffiecently advanced culture woudl appear as indistingushable from magic to the unadvanced mind." Basically according to the legends ( which both Lewis and Tolkien adhered to in their own legnedarium) Atlantis was the most advanced civilization ever. This would mean by some means they could develop the means of making the extra-demensional journey to the wood between the world.

It could also help retcon Jadis's origin too. Remember how in TL,TW,TW, ( novel.) Mr. Beaver said that the witch was descended from Lilith, Adam's first wife? Well, That is how she could both be from Charn and descended from Lillith. Lillith's clan makes the journey to Atlantis, dsicovers the means to get to Charn, and takes it over by there sheer force of will. Then over time the gradually grow worse and worse untill Jadis desrtoyed it with the Deplorable Word.

Meanwhile in our world, Atlantis sinks, Morgain and Merlin head to Briton and the rest they say is history.

My theory at least.

[inkspot]

Good theory, Sven. I like it.
Also, round here, you can just say LWW and we get it.
:)

[Sven-El]

Thanks, Inkspot... on both counts! I'm still new to the world of internet forums....

[BarbarianKing]

Another interesting theory, and it makes a lot of sense too, Sven. I think Lewis would've liked it.

[Sven-El]

"It's all in Plato ( well... at least Atlantis is.) All in Plato. Bless me, what are they teaching in these schools?" :D

And thanks... to be honest you all are much more accepting of my theory thene ven some in my literature classes in college were.

[waterhogboy]

I really like that theory - it makes alot of sense! I might not agree that the godmother WAS Morgana Le Fay but certainly it would make sense that she was descended from her.

[eggnog]

yeah ......

[buckmana]

Actually Le Fay means The Fairy.

It's used to indicate magic or a certain type of mythical being more than a relationship between people.

And it was said that this woman was a real fairy godmother.

[Sir Godfrey]

I am just thrilled by everyone's theories and prespectives. :)

[fernshirehobbit]

i am actually writing a fanfic deeling with this dust and the wood between the worlds, so my sister and i have been pouring over the books trying to find out about it lol

[Anne_Juliet]

Uncle Andrew said he "discovered" it was Atlantean, but he doesn't really know what he's dealing with, so I don't think he's a reliable source.

[Benisse]

Well, I don't think it's clear that the dust is from "other places" - I seem to remember that it all came from the Wood, somehow. It's just that some of it "wanted" to return and some of it "wanted" to depart.

One of the aspects of Lewis' writing style that I like a lot is the way he can create something that is imaginary and make it concrete and unforgettable in such simple prose. The Wood between the Worlds is one such place, with the peace and sleepiness and hush and greeness so vivid and poignant.

In 2003 I got to visit Oxford, and to my delight found that, within short walking distance of the Kilns (the home of Lewis), there was a quiet woody area with a small pond, green with duck moss and surrounded by sleepy overhanging trees. In my imagination I could see this serene setting mulitplied and silently morphing into the Wood between the Worlds. Thinking of that scene even now refreshes me and makes me long to go back, to learn more, to sit and reflect...
blessings,
Benisse

[fernshirehobbit]

the wood between teh worlds is such an interesting concept. i almost wanted to go there more than narnia when i was little:eek:

[Vanzetti]

Aslan said there were holes between worlds, so atlanteans could get the dust through one of them.

Hmm... I wonder if Narnia is connected to the Cthulhu Mythos. :eek:

[AsbelMctalisker]

Well, one needs to only look at what Andrew's aunts name is...Mrs. LeFay. Lewis drew the name from Morgan LeFay in the Arthurian Legends. While it may be simply implied that she is Morgan from the legends. It's nto to say she couldn't be both the Morgan from Arthru's stories and an Atlantian. If in That Hideous Strength Merlin is from Atlantis then she could be too.

Interesting postscript to this is since she is partly of fairy blood (of which the surname LeFay is an obvious hint) is that in some non-biblical medieval christian mythology the inhabitants of the fairy realm are sometimes refered to as `children of Lillith`.

[AsbelMctalisker]

Aslan said there were holes between worlds, so atlanteans could get the dust through one of them.

Hmm... I wonder if Narnia is connected to the Cthulhu Mythos. :eek:

Or could there be a bunch of lunatic dwarfs with a map of the holes running about all of space and time, ripping people of as in `Time Bandits`.

[MRW]

Well, one needs to only look at what Andrew's aunts name is...Mrs. LeFay. Lewis drew the name from Morgan LeFay in the Arthurian Legends. While it may be simply implied that she is Morgan from the legends. It's nto to say she couldn't be both the Morgan from Arthru's stories and an Atlantian. If in That Hideous Strength Merlin is from Atlantis then she could be too.

That's really interesting. I'm guessing that the Cosmic Trilogy took place around the same time as the Earth portion of the Narnia books, and if Merlin is still alive in the CT, I don't see why it can't be Morgan in the CoN. Her personality fits what I've read about Morgan's personality.

I've never actually read all of the CT. Could you build a textual case for them referencing each other that way? After all, Lewis established that the CoN takes place in the same incarnation of England that the Sherlock Holmes stories do.

Slightly off-topic: MN says there were two other women with fairy blood -- a dutchess and a charwoman. Any ideas who they might be?

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Slightly off-topic: MN says there were two other women with fairy blood -- a dutchess and a charwoman. Any ideas who they might be?My speculation is that Lewis didn't have anyone in mind when he wrote that - it was just a toss-off statement to lend an air of legitimacy (i.e. that Uncle Andrew had done his homework.)

I'd be really shocked if there were any connection between anything about Narnia and the Cthulhu Mythos!

I'm not familiar with the Cosmic Trilogy - what's that? Is that The Mists of Avalon?

[MRW]

I'm not familiar with the Cosmic Trilogy - what's that? Is that The Mists of Avalon?
It's a sci-fi trilogy that Lewis wrote. The books are: Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, That Hideous Strength. Like Narnia, they have very strong Christian undertones and themes. You can read more about them here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Trilogy). I've only read OotSP, and years ago at that so I don't remember it well.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Oh, that - what I've known as the Interplanetary Trilogy or Space Trilogy. I'm quite familiar with that - even named one of my kids after Ransom (middle name).

[Narborg]

Didnt' Lewis say that the dust came into our world " when it was just begining"? Ive always interprated that to mean it was part of the prosese of our worlds creation.

[buckmana]

I read the first two, but couldn't bring myself to bother looking for the third one.

Now, granted, this was when knowledge of the solar system was in it's infancy, but they're not good novels (no offence to C.S. Lewis intended).

The difference between science fiction and fantasy is this:

In fantasy, you don't have to explain the rules, everything works by magic.
In science fiction, there is no magic, everything happens for a reason and in the end, you explain what that reason is.

If I may make an observation, C.S. Lewis appeared not to know this and wrote the sci-fi books as though he was writing fantasy. Demons possessing humans and enchanted planetary spirits don't really belong in the world of sci-fi.

It was too magic and sorcery, not enough science-fiction.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

The 1930s was hardly when knowledge of the solar system was in its infancy. The fact that you don't appreciate them as novels doesn't make them bad novels - many people with good literary tastes appreciate them. Your definitions of what is fantasy and what is science fiction are also quite arbitrary - upon what authority (other than your own preferences) do you make them?

Nobody's saying you have to like the Space Trilogy, but they're still great stories with a powerful sub-message.

[MRW]

Science fiction differs from fantasy in that, within the context of the story, its imaginary elements are largely possible within scientifically established or scientifically postulated laws of nature (though some elements in a story might still be pure imaginative speculation).
This is always how the difference between the two genres has been explained to me, and why Star Wars (until the thing with midichlorians) is often classified as fantasy rather than sci-fi. The (admittedly) little I know about the Cosmic Trilogy makes it seem more like science fantasy than true science fiction, but that's neither here nor there.

If I know Lewis, he was much more concerned with the underlying allegory than following the conventions of a particular genre. It seems a lot like what Madeline L'Engle did with her Time quartet/quintet, combining science, fantasy, and religious mythology.

[MrBob]

"Didnt' Lewis say that the dust came into our world " when it was just begining"? Ive always interprated that to mean it was part of the prosese of our worlds creation."

Narborg, Uncle Andrew tells Digory that Atlantis was already a great civilization at the dawn of time. The box was Atlantean so it, too, was an extremely ancient box. It could be that Atlantis was on one of the other worlds that connected to the Wood. Their pool disappeared millenia before Polly and Digory ever made it to the Wood.

buckmana, there is a reason bookstores and libraries place sci-fi and fantasy together. They tend to cross over a lot. Narnia is a full-fledged fantasy with no sci-fi. I can't comment on his Space Trilogy as I haven't read it, but it can have aspects of both genres. If so, it just isn't in one single genre.

As for the definitions,
"In fantasy, you don't have to explain the rules, everything works by magic.
In science fiction, there is no magic, everything happens for a reason and in the end, you explain what that reason is."

I must disagree. In fantasy, supernatural events take place as "magic." They still have rules, but they are described in terms of the rules of the magic (witches fly on broomsticks, cast spells, prophesize, etc) or they have talking animals.

In Sci-Fi, events are based on science, even seemingly supernatural events. The rules are based on the science we know or speculative science of tommorow (spaceships, energy weapons, etc.). They can also have talking animals, but the process of evolution or something similar must have produces them.

It is very easy to combine aspects of sci-fi and fantasy. Star Wars is one example. The Force is fantasy while the starships and weaponry is sci-fi, based on speculative science.

Even His Dark Materials (Philip Pullman) has a combination of sci-fi and fantasy. The entire concept of the story is fantasy, but the machine that Lord Asriel made to open the Northern Lights was sci-fi as was the remote bomb that was meant to kill Lyra.

MrBob

[Sven-El]

This is always how the difference between the two genres has been explained to me, and why Star Wars (until the thing with midichlorians) is often classified as fantasy rather than sci-fi. The (admittedly) little I know about the Cosmic Trilogy makes it seem more like science fantasy than true science fiction, but that's neither here nor there.

If I know Lewis, he was much more concerned with the underlying allegory than following the conventions of a particular genre. It seems a lot like what Madeline L'Engle did with her Time quartet/quintet, combining science, fantasy, and religious mythology.

Keep in mind when lewis was writing the Space Trilogy, a lot of the "rules" of mdoern sci-fi had yet to be established. Look at Edger Rice Burroughs John Carter of Mars. The Martian stories of Ray Bradbury. They border on fantasy as well. Bradbury even said he wrote science fantasy not science fiction.

Arthru C. Clarke has even had things that border on fantasy in his more "hard science" fiction like the monolith and the Star Child ( Dave Bowman in his "evolved form" complete with an avatar if you will that merges with HAL), or the Overmind and OVerlrods in Childhood's End.

Many people think fo Star Trek as more Sci-fi then Star Wars, but look at some of the things the crews of the variosu ships have come across .Q is a priem example. HE ahs very magical powers. The crew of the Original Enterpsie ( Kirk's) came across a being who claimed to be Abarahm Lincoln, and they encountered several "Q" like creatures."

I feel at least teh Atlantean dust coudl border on sci-fi in the line of logic that Atlantis is a more"advanced" culture. Like wise with the differing time-stream between Narnia and our world.