Ending Thoughts

[White Wolf]

I just put down the Silver Chair, and Last Battle....

Wow..... wow wow wow wow wow

I recently reread LLW, PC, DT, SC, and LB in order (don't know about Nephew or HASB yet) but wow...

Peter- High King
Lucy- THe Valiant
Edmund- The Just

Gone. Dead. All of them, like the winds of summer.

Eustance Scrubb
Jill Pole

Best friends, possibly lovers? Boyfriend and Girlfriend. Newest King and Queen of Narnia. Together, forever.

I read with great joy as Eustance became the man I'd hoped him to be, from Treader to Silver Chair. I knew he cared for Jill, when they went after Rilian with Puddleglum

I guess I'm still in shock, knowing that they are going to die... killed in a accident, but living forever with Aslan

Anyone else feel this way, seeing- well, reading them after their deathes? If they make, Last Battle, do you think they'll show Susan, in her dark aftermath after the accident?

How old are Peter, Edmund, Lucy, Eustance, and Jill by the Last Battle, anyways?

[Charn_Tim]

haha...yeah, my thoughts exactly after I read it for the first time (and second, and third...) :).

It is kind of shocking that it ends that way, but the overwhelming aspect for me was their intense joy at having arrived in "Aslan's Country" at last-the same feeling that Reepicheep must have had at the end of Dawn Treader.

[Narnian_Blade]

Yes, I did have a feeling similar to that. Kind of a joy that they reaches Aslans country mixed with sadness that they are dead and won't be fighting Jadis or anyone anymore. But their start in new Narnia was like the beginning of chapter one and everything else was just like the cover of a book.

[Jacksie]

When they die Jill & Eustace are 16, Lucy is 18, Edmund is 20 and Peter is 23.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Supposedly - based on that speculative Narnian timeline. I traced down the source of that, and it's from a book called Past Watchful Dragons, published by Walter Hooper after Lewis' death. As I mentioned in another thread, some of what Hooper has published in Lewis' name has come under criticism by Lewis experts as being somewhat suspect - not quite Lewis, so to speak. I've never read the book, but I've got my questions.

[Puzzle dear]

I was sad at first that they wouldn't get to raise their own families in our world, but now I'm happy for them.

[ºººJill_Poleººº]

Even though they died...I loved the ending, it was the most loevely ending I've read in my 15 years of life :(

[White Wolf]

Really? Wow... Lucy and Edmund really are older than Jill and Eustance...

I hated it when the Pevensie's could never come back...:_:

But if Lu, Peter, and Ed could say something to Susan, coming back in spirit form ala how King Trinian did, what do you think they'd say?

[TolkienGoddess]

Why do you think Lewis killed them all off? I haven't read the LB, but most stories just end happily. Even the LOTR ended well. Frodo, Bilbo and Gandalf go into the West, which is sort of like joining Aslan's country, but why do you think Lewis chose to have the accident happen at all?? :(

[unleavened]

Well, the ending to LB is happy. They all end up in the New Narnia of eternal bliss. What could be happier?

[onlymystory]

Why do you think Lewis killed them all off? I haven't read the LB, but most stories just end happily. Even the LOTR ended well. Frodo, Bilbo and Gandalf go into the West, which is sort of like joining Aslan's country, but why do you think Lewis chose to have the accident happen at all?? :(

um, might want to read the LB. they all die except Susan. THere are many threads about Susan's life after LB. As far as the movie I would imagine they show a glimpse of Susan getting the news, heartbroken, and then I picture her going through their things and coming across a diary of Lucy's about Narnia and maybe Jill's coronation clothes. I imagine her sinking to the floor with these in her hand and remembering all she had tried to forget with a look of renewed hope on her face.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

why do you think Lewis chose to have the accident happen at all?? :(I think unleavened has the gist of it. For Aslan, and His followers, death is not an end, but a doorway to something better. After all, that's what "passing into the West" is in Tolkien's lore, at least for the elves (and a few hobbits, and even one dwarf). The Friends of Narnia simply passed into the West via the doorway of earthly death. It was no tragedy for them, though it was for those left behind.

(btw, nice imagination picture, unleavened!)

[Puzzle dear]

uh, onlymystory, Jill became a Queen only after she was tossed through the stable door into the True Narnia, so I don't think Susan would find any coronation clothes in their belongings.

[onlymystory]

the clothes from the coronation ceremony of Prince Rilian. Jill and Eustace were dressed in them right before Aslan took them away and they were wearing them in their own country when they went after "them". sorry, didn't mean for her coronation just coronation clothes in general as in fancy clothes.

[Puzzle dear]

Oh, okay sorry bout that.

[onlymystory]

no biggie. I wasn't very clear on that.

[Puzzle dear]

anyway that'd be a good Susan epilogue.

[HM High King Peter]

I think many of you are missing the point entirely. Susan is not going to come back. Remember, Lewis says that she is "no longer a friend of Narnia." This would extrapolate to mean that she turned her back on Narnia and on Aslan. She won't be joining them. :-(

However, there is the thought that "once a king or queen in Narnia, always a king or queen in Narnia." So maybe that means that Susan had her fire insurance if you know what I mean. When we all get to heaven we can ask Jack what he meant to happen.

[HM High King Peter]

Puzzle dear, you ARE a dear, and quite right. However, there were her clothes from Narnia that she puts off at the end of SC and wears to a fancy dress ball the next holiday.

What I do find interesting is that Lewis refers to all the friends of Narnia as Kings and Queens, even though Eustace and Jill had never been proclaimed so in the "shadow Narnia." Similarly, after calling them Kings and Queens, Lewis refers to LORD Digory and LADY Polly. Another truth we shall never know until Heaven.

But, AH, the Truth we shall know then. And His name is Jesus. Hallelujah!

[HM High King Peter]

It would indeed.

[Puzzle dear]

Puzzle dear, you ARE a dear, and quite right. However, there were her clothes from Narnia that she puts off at the end of SC and wears to a fancy dress ball the next holiday.

What I do find interesting is that Lewis refers to all the friends of Narnia as Kings and Queens, even though Eustace and Jill had never been proclaimed so in the "shadow Narnia." Similarly, after calling them Kings and Queens, Lewis refers to LORD Digory and LADY Polly. Another truth we shall never know until Heaven.

But, AH, the Truth we shall know then. And His name is Jesus. Hallelujah!
*giggles modestly*
they called me dear...

[lamer]

The ending is second to only The Silver Chair. I can't bash the hilarity in the end of it :P

But as for TLB I was spoiled by one of my friends as to the ending, but when it happened halfway through I wasn't ready for that :P I thought only Edmund, Lucy, and Peter were involved. But it's Dogrin(I think that's how you spell his name), Polly, Eustace and Jill as well.

I loved how they brought back the old animals in New Narnia (I know it's Heaven so they had to do it) such as the Beavers, Tumnus, Bree, Reepicheep, etc.
It was great. I want to read it again...

[CSLewisFan]

Even though they died...I loved the ending, it was the most lovely ending I've read in my 15 years of life :(

I'm going to have to agree with Jill. :)

Death is many times the happiest ending of all. When I think about it, death is one of the few ways I would like to end this life.

What could be better than entering a new and glorious world, better that Narnia could ever be?

-Austin

[EveningStar]

I think that the Pevensies had the entire country of Narnia as their family. They raised them as wise kings and queens, tempering justice with mercy.

There is a lot to be said for raising a family, the great joy at so many wonderful milestones you share along their path to adulthood. And yet they break your heart again and again. You watch them make wrong choices and you try to pick up the pieces. And when they get it all together you breathe a sigh of relief and thank God that you selectively remember the good times better than the bad when looking back on it all.

And sometimes they don't live to be that old. Sometimes you get cheated out of the natural order of things and you get to bury your child and have to endure that sick feeling time and time again when you drive past the cemetary that used to be just another landmark. Sometimes you change your route entirely so you won't have to see it unless you want to.

The Pevensies never had to feel that pain. I would not call them unlucky.

[lamer]

Notice in the end of the book. They were happy. All I can say there. When Aslan was relaying the story they were all happy.

[Puzzle dear]

When I first read the book the excerpt: But for them it was only the beginning of the real story. Their adventures in Narnia and this world had only been the cover and title page. Now at last they were beginning Chapter One of a Great Story, one that goes on forever, each chapter better than the last. This paragraph made me angry! I wouldn't get to join them on their adventures anymore, and I would never get to read the Great Story or enjoy it! :mad:

[lionessofgod]

I have read through about half of it, and man, IS IT GOOD OR WHAT?! That book is so awesome! I believe that what Puzzle the donkey was when he was dressed up represented the Anti-Christ, because he deceived many and even true Narnians. That was the sad part, because the Narnians gave up hope w/ Aslan after that. I wish that they would have had more hope. :( Sadly, NOOOOO! They just couldn't. But I believe that the ending will be awesome because the Narnians get surprised out of their socks and that they will most likely be ashamed. Ha on them!

[onlymystory]

trust me, the end is great.

[Susan's_Shadow]

I feel sad for susan in the end....................it made me mad. It made me feel like susan was a traitor. I guess she is. :o

whatever........i'm not making sense

[Charn_Tim]

I feel sad for susan in the end....................it made me mad. It made me feel like susan was a traitor. I guess she is. :o

whatever........i'm not making sense
I know what you mean, I love Susan too and it makes me sad that Lewis ended it that way. But I still think that Susan comes around in the end, as we have discussed in many threads in this forum already. The thing to keep in mind is that Lewis keeps Susan alive in England while all the others are dead. It's not like Susan has died too, and doesn't come into the New Narnia; she is still alive, and Aslan says, "Once a King or Queen of Narnia, always a King or Queen"...

[Knight of Narnia]

I just finished Last Battle fairly recently and I was at first kind of shocked with the way that he ended it... but after taking some time to think about it, it really becomes a beautiful ending. The last paragraph about this only being the cover and the title page was simply brilliant.

[Narnia's #1 fan]

lol i dunno about you, but if i ever met someone or something as great as Aslan and he said that i could go into his country of perfection and glory and live with him for eternity, i would be happy beyond comparison of anything wordly, i would forget the old world instantly and leave for the eternal world of happiness and eternal life. :D

[EveningStar]

The Pevensies lived a reasonably long life if you add up all their Narnian time and Terrestrial time. They met the highest possible of career goals, becoming national heroes and monarchs. They had a wonderful relationship with their Lord. They experienced adventure and saw more of life than most 80 year olds.

As they say the greatest way to live successfully is not to add years to your life but life to your years.

[SailorSaturn13]

I feel sad for susan in the end....................it made me mad. It made me feel like susan was a traitor. I guess she is. :o

whatever........i'm not making sense


She isn't, to me. She simply OUTGREW Narnia. Her talents aren't lying in simply blessing Aslan, or in ruling over animals, but in relations with people. Her powers belong to Earth, not Narnia. If she will use this power for good (and i think she will) she will come into Aslan's country.

As for betraying others, she probably just felt heraself a burden in Narnia (see "Horse and his Boy" ) If she would've been told that they are going to death she likely would join them simply to share thair fate. But to hang with them just to exchange old stories over Narnia (which since PC isn't hers anymore as all beasts she knew in LVV are dead as is her son ) isn't her thing.

Wendy didn't betray Peter by returning from Neverland. Neither did Susan.

[Malacandra]

But that's the sad part. She didn't outgrow Narnia - not in the sense of becoming a responsible, reasoning adult, as if that represented an "outgrowing" of Narnia in any case. There's a strong suggestion that Narnia isn't something you outgrow, as Peter didn't, as Polly and Digory didn't either; and Susan wasn't putting on the mantle of maturity but simply settling on shallow empty-headedness. Even the considerably younger Jill Pole could see what the matter with this was, as could Polly from her truly mature perspective.

Susan made haste to get to the nylons-lipstick-invitations stage of life as quickly as possible and decided she would stay there as long as possible. There is nothing wrong with nylons, lipstick and invitations in their proper time and context, but a girl who decides several years early that there is nothing better in life than to become arm-candy for Hooray Henries and to carry on being such for as long as she can possibly get away with it - such a girl (to break this very long clause up) is not exercising any power for good at all.

Susan betrayed no-one but herself and harmed no-one but herself, but that doesn't make her story one whit the less tragic. I like to think she could and would find her way back; but the important thing would be to turn herself around, and not merely decide that all choices were equally valid and there was nothing wrong with hers. Had Narnia merely been a childish fantasy there would have been no harm in her treating it as such. But it was real. She didn't exchange childish fantasy for adult maturity and reason, but for anti-intellectual vapidity, shallowness and hedonism. Lacking one concrete argument against Narnia, she merely giggled, waved her hand and pretended it didn't exist. I pity Susan.

[EveningStar]

The other youths found maturity in taking responsibility, facing loss, enduring the heat of battle and the burden of leadership. Susan sought maturity in the outer trappings of adulthood. Big difference and quite a mistake in being useful to The Kingdom.

That's not to say one should not take pride in one's appearance and engage in good grooming. Only that she did not mature in the ways Aslan had planned for her.

Not to be sexist at all (READ THAT FIVE TIMES BEFORE POSTING A REPLY PLEAS)...not to be sexist AT ALL...but she was beginning to define herself as someone that would belong to a man someday, in accordance with the era's ideas on romance. Aslan had more planned for her. He got disappointed.

[castel]

Susan has simply makes her choices.

Wendy didn't betray Peter by returning from Neverland. Neither did Susan

True.

She's not a "traitor". (such a ugly word indeed :rolleyes: )

But just a girl who lives now her own life and who has forgotten than once, long time ago, she's been queen of Narnia.

[Malacandra]

The other youths found maturity in taking responsibility, facing loss, enduring the heat of battle and the burden of leadership. Susan sought maturity in the outer trappings of adulthood. Big difference and quite a mistake in being useful to The Kingdom.

That's not to say one should not take pride in one's appearance and engage in good grooming. Only that she did not mature in the ways Aslan had planned for her.

Not to be sexist at all (READ THAT FIVE TIMES BEFORE POSTING A REPLY PLEAS)...not to be sexist AT ALL...but she was beginning to define herself as someone that would belong to a man someday, in accordance with the era's ideas on romance. Aslan had more planned for her. He got disappointed.

Why "not to be sexist"? The word gets bandied about these days as though i) sexism is a self-evident evil and ii) it should always have been recognised as such and iii) all of history should be retrofitted to the current world-view, all of which I'd consider highly debatable. On a reading of That Hideous Strength, it seems as though Ransom, the eldilia and oyersi, and Lewis himself, are thoroughly comfortable with what you might call sexism; albeit a kind of sexism that is fulfilling for women as well as men. The female members of Mr Fisher-King's household don't seem distressed at not being allowed to be men. :cool:

But another problem, I think, is that Susan had fixated on romance, courtship, dressing-up, gossip and fashion, rather than what to do next. If she'd been interested in "belonging to" a man, after the customs of the place and times, then she'd have been showing an interest in settling down and becoming a homemaker (housewife, whatever) rather than just pursuing shallow, glamorous excitement; and the other female Friends of Narnia would have been a lot happier.

Let the reader mark well Chakal's use of the words "outer trappings". That's extremely significant. Susan was willing to adopt some, and only some, of adulthood's outer trappings; as if Peter were willing to wear the crown and carry a sword and shield, but any thoughts of actually ruling Narnia with wisdom and courage never entered his head; or as if one were to agitate for the right to vote, and never bother to learn the first thing about politics. Had Susan traded childlike innocence for adult responsibility, there would be no case to answer (and not much likelihood that she would have dismissed Narnia as a children's game).

castel, it's not enough to say that Susan "made her choices" or "is living her own life". Nothing could be more probable than that she will some day have to explain to Aslan why she should have pretended that he was only a fantasy.

[EveningStar]

I think Aslan was making a strong, self confident woman out of Susan, but Susan instead chose to rely on makeup and traded The Wardrobe for a new spring wardrobe (pun intended).

God wanted her to concentrate on her INNER BEAUTY. She was a ruler, not just a queen consort but a queen regent (There's a difference, ask Elizabeth II!) and as such was supposedly above using the Ogden Nash principle...in other words as he once wrote in "Biological Reflections":

A girl whose face is covered with paint
Has an advantage with me over one who's ain't!

She was meant to be a Joan of Arc, an Elizabeth, a Catherine the Great. Instead she became just another bit of fluff looking to fill her dance card.

For her Aslan broke the glass ceiling. She had a chief executive's job with a conmensurate salary. Edmund turned in Tumnus for sweeties. In a real way Susan turned in Aslan for sweeties. I pity her decisions, and I believe she repented of them and that somewhere out there she's a 72 year old woman waiting for Aslan to breathe on her once again. But she did this to herself. You make bad decisions, you have to live with them. That's life.

[castel]

Nothing could be more probable than that she will some day have to explain to Aslan why she should have pretended that he was only a fantasy

Well, if really Aslan is a so wise, so powerful, so generous and "all mighty" caracter......so, he will forgive her for sure. ;)

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Actually, the worst case isn't having to explain to Aslan - it's just never seeing Him again, because Susan had "better things to do". She'd be simply reaping the fruit of her own choices.

[Malacandra]

Well, if really Aslan is a so wise, so powerful, so generous and "all mighty" caracter......so, he will forgive her for sure. ;)

Eh, I suggest you consider the theological implications most carefully before you make with the winks. It's an unfortunate possibility that Susan's denial of Aslan's reality could lead directly to Aslan's last words to her being "I never knew you. Depart from Me." :(

...Why yes, this is a topic I think about a lot. What gave me away?


/me rips a page out of the dictionary, highlights "regent" and "regnant", and hands it to Chakal :p

[castel]

I suggest you consider the theological implications most carefully

Well, i prefer considering the philosophical and logical implications than any theological considerations for my part.

Each of us make of a story a different interpretation.

But if i was Susan and than one day Aslan dares say me something rude like :"I never knew you, Depart from Me", i honnestly think i'm going to respond only one answer to him : "screw you !! dirty furball !!" :D






(just a joke.......don't take it seriously ^^)

[Malacandra]

Well, i prefer considering the philosophical and logical implications than any theological considerations for my part.

Each of us make of a story a different interpretation.

But if i was Susan and than one day Aslan dares say me something rude like :"I never knew you, Depart from Me", i honnestly think i'm going to respond only one answer to him : "screw you !! dirty furball !!" :D

(just a joke.......don't take it seriously ^^)

Well, yanno, that line I put into Aslan's mouth is a direct Biblical quote, though it has to do with those who called themselves Christians but never clothed the naked, fed the hungry, sheltered the homeless, visited the prisoners, and so on... but I think it might cover those who directly experienced him and still chose to dismiss him as a childhood game.

But philosophy and logic aren't incompatible with theology, especially not at this juncture.

Seriously dude, you imagine Susan would be able to stand before Aslan in his glory and give him back-chat? Or talk of what he dared? Any of us would be doing well to stand on our feet and look him in the eye. And a little less flippancy and more thought might be wise. ;)

[castel]

Seriously dude, you imagine Susan would be able to stand before Aslan in his glory and give him back-chat?

No.

And that's why i said that was a joke.

But that would be very fun !! :D

But philosophy and logic aren't incompatible with theology

hmmm..........

[Malacandra]

You maybe want to expand on that "hmmm........"? Or you think that the hmm says it all? :cool:

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Castel, you're going to have to adjust to the idea that on a forum devoted to C.S. Lewis, you're going to find a lot of people who take their faith seriously. You'll find that if you make shallow jests about Aslan, you will find yourself in the same position as Eomer making callow comments about Galadriel in the presence of Gimli the Dwarf - "you speak evil of that which is beyond the reach of your thought, and only little wit can excuse you."

It seems clear from your posts that you know essentially nothing about Christianity, and have swallowed whole and without question the propaganda that you have been fed. If you wish to discuss Christianity from an informed perspective, your should read at least the entire Chronicles of Narnia, and I would suggest Mere Christianity as well. Hopefully, you can then post without looking like such an ignorant fool.

[SailorSaturn13]

Castel, you're going to have to adjust to the idea that on a forum devoted to C.S. Lewis, you're going to find a lot of people who take their faith seriously. Y
It seems clear from your posts that you know essentially nothing about Christianity, and have swallowed whole and without question the propaganda that you have been fed. ... Hopefully, you can then post without looking like such an ignorant fool.

POTW, YOU are making yourself a fool by attacking jokes. You remind me of those people in Iran and middle East who burn embassies just because some magazine published Mohammed cartoons. ;) God is surely too powerful and confident to be angered by harmless jokes.

Seriously dude, you imagine Susan would be able to stand before Aslan in his glory and give him back-chat? Or talk of what he dared?

Susan surely wouldn't say what Caspel proposed, simply because she isgentle and not aggressive. But actually I think she could, she has the courage to do it. However, she most likely won't for as soon as she sees him she would see she was wrong and admit it(unlike Rabadash). And she has a right to be angry of Aslan - he ripped her two times out of Narnia; isn't it not enough not to want to live this through again??! And he had ripped two her families off: Narnian and Earth fmily alike. She would have things to blame him, too.


It's an unfortunate possibility that Susan's denial of Aslan's reality could lead directly to Aslan's last words to her being "I never knew you. Depart from Me."
Which would mean a lie since he DID knew her.


Well, yanno, that line I put into Aslan's mouth is a direct Biblical quote, though it has to do with those who called themselves Christians but never clothed the naked, fed the hungry, sheltered the homeless, visited the prisoners, and so on... but I think it might cover those who directly experienced him and still chose to dismiss him as a childhood game.
:cool:
No. Lewis admitted it himself in TLB: "He who speaks Tash and does good belongs to me, and he who speaks Aslan and does horrible things belongs to Tash(devil)" Point is how you LIVE, not what you believe. And here Susan might be better of , even if Lewis denied it.

[castel]

Princeofthewest, you know nothing about me and you're an idiot.

I know probably the Bible a lot better than you. (i have made theological studies)

And that's why, because i know so well the Bible and christian's dogma, than i can say i'm a proud atheist.

When i'm reading the wonderful books of mister Lewis, i see a great story.

Not a book full of religious stuff.

Just a great, wonderful, marvelous and magic story.

That's the way i like to read those books.

I know Lewis was a christian.

But i don't care.

That's not why i love his books.

Like i said to you before, i respect your faith.

Respect my convictions too, and please, please tries to take this just a little less seriously. ;)

[The Dancing Lawn]

WHoa O.k. LAdies and gentleman lets play nicely.

[Malacandra]

Castel, you're going to have to adjust to the idea that on a forum devoted to C.S. Lewis, you're going to find a lot of people who take their faith seriously. Y
It seems clear from your posts that you know essentially nothing about Christianity, and have swallowed whole and without question the propaganda that you have been fed. ... Hopefully, you can then post without looking like such an ignorant fool.


POTW, YOU are making yourself a fool by attacking jokes. You remind me of those people in Iran and middle East who burn embassies just because some magazine published Mohammed cartoons. God is surely too powerful and confident to be angered by harmless jokes.

Right, because scolding someone for their flippancy - in a forum where it's likely to be seen that flippancy is being perpetrated solely to be annoying - is exactly the same as burning embassies over a cartoon published in an obscure newspaper. :rolleyes: Behaviour like that is often known on the internet as "trolling" and some boards I've known clamp down on it mighty hard. The mere fact that something is "only a joke" doesn't excuse it; at least, not from the perpetrator being called to step up and elaborate on their PoV; it's not like anyone's going to get burned at the stake here. The issue is not altogether God's power and confidence but the state of mind of human beings.


Seriously dude, you imagine Susan would be able to stand before Aslan in his glory and give him back-chat? Or talk of what he dared?

Susan surely wouldn't say what Caspel proposed, simply because she is gentle and not aggressive. But actually I think she could, she has the courage to do it. However, she most likely won't for as soon as she sees him she would see she was wrong and admit it(unlike Rabadash). And she has a right to be angry of Aslan - he ripped her two times out of Narnia; isn't it not enough not to want to live this through again??! And he had ripped two her families off: Narnian and Earth fmily alike. She would have things to blame him, too.

At last an argument, of sorts. It is one thing to say that Susan has something to be upset about. It is quite another to speak of her as having the "right" to be angry. That she was shut out ("ripped"? Please!) from Narnia? Visits to Narnia were at Aslan's discretion, and he decided it was time for Susan and Peter to learn to know him in their own world. A little upset might be in order, but furiously sulking at Aslan for daring to cross her would be silly. (If she did. We're ascribing feelings and motivations to Susan that aren't justified by the text. All we know is that she chose to regard Narnia as a children's game. We have nothing whatever to suggest that this was because she was angry at Aslan for not letting her go back to Narnia.)

Then as to the loss of her family in a railway accident, what possible grounds has Susan for laying that at Aslan's door? She has just spent the last few years denying that any such person ever existed! But the accident itself - most railway accidents can be adequately explained by human greed and stupidity without any need to blame the Almighty. Whether it's management paying too much attention to profit and too little to safety, or trades unions refusing to allow incompetent employees to be fired, or even the paying public who shut their eyes to safety issues as long as the fares are kept low, there's a long list of people whose ways need to be mended before ever we curse God for his cruelty. And of course, if greedy and stupid humans always had the cushion of miraculous intervention by God to shield them (and innocent parties) from the consequences of their actions, would they not become ever more greedy and stupid?

This is, of course, an extremely brief overview of the whole problem of human pain and suffering. All I'm aiming to do is to demonstrate that Susan has no self-evident grounds to be mad at Aslan. As to courage, I'll pick that up in a later post if you like. This one has become quite an essay already.


It's an unfortunate possibility that Susan's denial of Aslan's reality could lead directly to Aslan's last words to her being "I never knew you. Depart from Me."

Which would mean a lie since he DID knew her.

Not a lie; just a reflection that the Susan he once knew no longer exists, and the Susan who stands before him is not she.


Well, yanno, that line I put into Aslan's mouth is a direct Biblical quote, though it has to do with those who called themselves Christians but never clothed the naked, fed the hungry, sheltered the homeless, visited the prisoners, and so on... but I think it might cover those who directly experienced him and still chose to dismiss him as a childhood game.

No. Lewis admitted it himself in TLB: "He who speaks Tash and does good belongs to me, and he who speaks Aslan and does horrible things belongs to Tash(devil)" Point is how you LIVE, not what you believe. And here Susan might be better of , even if Lewis denied it.

But it is what Susan was doing with her life that is the very issue here! Granted that it would be no better for her to go about praising Aslan in between, say, beating her children or defrauding her employer, and so on; but it is not as though she was living a blameless life of goodness and love at the same time as denying Aslan. The passage you efficiently paraphrase above comes from a very powerful section in which it is made clear that Emeth the Calormene had, without knowing it, been seeking Aslan all his life. He thought he was seeking Tash, but the image of Tash he had in mind - as holy, beautiful, and so unutterably admirable as to be worth dying a thousand deaths to see but once - and the service he sought to offer to Tash, were of the nature that can be accepted only by Aslan. The same can't be said of Susan, unfortunately. She had ample opportunity to mend her ways, but denying that there was anything wrong with what she was doing is not the way to start.

[EveningStar]

This is an extremely short piece that expresses exactly what I think happens to Susan. Though it's my work, not Lewis', I think it makes a lot of sense and explains my position well.

http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4308

Respectfully submitted.

John B.

[Malacandra]

This is an extremely short piece that expresses exactly what I think happens to Susan. Though it's my work, not Lewis', I think it makes a lot of sense and explains my position well.

http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4308

Respectfully submitted.

John B.

That's it, I'm definitely writing mine now! :D

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Hey, guys! Lighten up! I was just joking!

(What? That doesn't excuse everything?)

It would appear that any god is fair game as the butt of jokes except the Imperial Self. Nothing new there.

You needn't worry about me smashing windows and burning buildings. God is great enough to defend His own name without my assistance. My post was made out of fraternal concern for my fellow forum participants, for I know that if people make frivolous jokes about sacred matters, they end up - as the sort of people who make frivolous jokes about sacred matters.

All I know of you, castel, is what you've posted on these forums, and my statements stand. (Do you honestly think that propaganda is not spread in theological studies departments?) But rest assured, I respect you in the same manner that you respect my faith.

[castel]

By the way, i have juste make a joke about Aslan and Susan, oki ?

Not about your faith.

If you don't able to laugh about it, that's very sad for you.

Do you honestly think that propaganda is not spread in theological studies departments?

Less than the propaganda spread in the churchs by the priests every sunday morning.......

How someone with a brain can believe the world has been made in 7 days ?

Where is the logical in that ?

And adam and eve would be the father and the mother of all the humanity ? ^^

Lol, that's the real joke !!

And this one don't make me laugh.......

[EveningStar]

I find the assertion that there is nothing and no-one out there an act of faith not of pure emperical observation. Logically, scientifically, you must start with observations, and in this case the observation must be looking for God and not finding Him anywhere. You can only argue that you have seen no convincing evidence so far. You have not looked everywhere, and even if you had, how are you sure you know what you're looking for? You have not defined God either spiritually or by his observable characteristics. Proving that something does not exist is amazingly hard to do, even when you have limits. People even miss guns in suitcases when they know what they're looking for and limit the scope to a single load of baggage. It takes less faith to believe in the possibility of a God than to bank on the certainty of no God.

I felt the tip end of your previous message was a bit too smug and needed a bit of rounding off with the sandpaper of diversity. In addition, my personal opinion compels me to say your signature graphic about "Proud to be Athiest" seems a bit confrontational and provocative, especially since that is not your email sig but part of you chosen identity on an overwhelmingly conservative and overtly religious forum. I badly want you to feel welcome here, but as good general advice goes, you'll get a lot more drinks at the pub if you don't call men, "Hey, idiot!" :rolleyes:

[Malacandra]

By the way, i have juste make a joke about Aslan and Susan, oki ?

Not about your faith.

If you don't able to laugh about it, that's very sad for you.


Since everyone, including you, knows very well that Aslan is Narnia's personification of Christ... don't come the innocent, sonny.



Less than the propaganda spread in the churchs by the priests every sunday morning.......

How someone with a brain can believe the world has been made in 7 days ?

Where is the logical in that ?

And adam and eve would be the father and the mother of all the humanity ? ^^

Lol, that's the real joke !!

And this one don't make me laugh.......

Have you considered posting in sentences and even paragraphs, O great student of logic, philosophy and theology? Then we can get onto whether everyone, or even a majority of people, in the Church believe in a literal seven-day Creation and descent from a historical Adam and Eve. (And if you like, you can explain - logically of course - why either view would be insupportable.) But at one sentence fragment every other line when you do condescend to answer, it might get wearing.

(By the way, is English your first language? I don't want to slam you for grammar and so on if it isn't.)

And you should know that a word like "propaganda" in this context is going to be viewed as highly inflammatory, thus weakening your case for not wanting to offend anyone, honestly. ;)

[EveningStar]

It is obvious, Castel, that you do not understand what pain you can unintentionally inflict on people by "kidding" about their beliefs. Their religion is their view on how to live, but it's also their thoughts on what happens to them when they die and, even more horrifying, what happens to their loved ones. Wait till someone you absolutely can't live without dies. You won't find jokes about religion so funny then. I know that all too well. :(

An elderly couple that are a little overweight are having a lovely picnic by the stream. Along comes a jogger in the prime of his youth that looks at them and says, "Hey Pops, were you always fat, or only since you got old??" Their day is ruined. They may never come back to that park. Was it illegal? No. Irresponsible? Need I say it? A joke is not funny when it hurts people.

What is the Islamic cartoon flap, anyway? It's people frustrated with terrorism hitting all muslims below the belt as a way of letting off steam. And a lot of muslims looking to vent frustration on the West. This has never been about freedom of speech. It is about irresponsibility, the idea that whatever is legally permissible should be said loudly, often, and in your face just because it can be. Like calling an old fat bald man an old fat bald man just becuase he is....

[SailorSaturn13]

(in http://dnausers.d-n-a.net/cslewis/news18.html)

WHAT HAPPENED TO SUSAN?

Michel Faber has written a new Narnia story, entitled 'BRAVE AGAIN' explaining what happened to

Susan (see September 'C S Lewis News'). Positive comments from Gracia Fay Ellwood, Marilylle

Soveran, Keith Wilkerson, Rodney Loewen, Kirsten Edwards and Mary Stolzenbach. Shelly Pitman

complains 'It's not C. S. Lewis' and Angela Johnson is worried about the time sequence.

Kathryn Lindskoog comments-'I have in my computer a good little book about how Susan got back to

Narnia. Here is what happened. In 1980 a cloistered Carmelite nun in Flemington, New Jersey,

wrote an eighth chronicle of Narnia, telling what happened to Susan, and called it THE CENTAUR'S

CAVERN. (At least twice, C.S. Lewis encouraged readers to invent new tales of Narnia.) I found

her a Protestant publisher in Canada who wanted to bring it out. The altruistic plan was to make

it extremely clear that this was not by C. S. Lewis, and to donate all profits to the work of

Mother Teresa. I got Sheldon Vanauken to read the manuscript, and he offered to write a blurb.

Everyone involved felt sure that Lewis would have approved. But to her dismay, C. S. Lewis Pte.

turned her down flat. We were all surprised and deeply disappointed.'

David Lenander adds-'A gentleman (I think from New York) contacted me last year. He's written a

new Chronicle about Susan, for which he cannot get permission to publish.'

[SailorSaturn13]

Back to issues.


on an overwhelmingly conservative and overtly religious forum.
;)
if you think so about yourself, I suggest you read THIS:
http://www.capalert.com/capreports/chroniclesofnarnia-lww.htm

This may help you to see yourself like I see you.
(Note: i don't share this opinion about film)


if people make frivolous jokes about sacred matters, they end up - as the sort of people who make frivolous jokes about sacred matters.



You mean, like Van Gogh?
:rolleyes:

When i'm reading the wonderful books of mister Lewis, i see a great story.

Not a book full of religious stuff.

Just a great, wonderful, marvelous and magic story.
:)

Exactly. And LVV does seem greater than LB...

[Malacandra]

::follows link::

:eek:

Hoo boy. So you see, people are quite moderate here...

[Christine Marie]

http://www.capalert.com/capreports/chroniclesofnarnia-lww.htm

LOL at that link

Offense to God (O)
* half man, half goat character
* characters of flame dancing in fire
* magic to enter another world
* magic to make hot drink and cakes
* enticement of a child by evil
* many characters "frozen" (killed) by witch, repeatedly, then some resurrected
* magic potion to heal, repeatedly
* half man, half horse and many other mythological creatures such as a man with a goat's head as characters
* speaking character of wisdom created from the petals of tree flowers (Gaiaism?), twice
* many demon-like characters
* demon revelry

LMAO! Especially at Mr. Tummus offending God :D

[EveningStar]

Gone. Dead. All of them, like the winds of summer.Very well put! You express yourself well.

[Malacandra]

LOL at that link

Offense to God (O)
* half man, half goat character
* characters of flame dancing in fire
* magic to enter another world
* magic to make hot drink and cakes
* enticement of a child by evil
* many characters "frozen" (killed) by witch, repeatedly, then some resurrected
* magic potion to heal, repeatedly
* half man, half horse and many other mythological creatures such as a man with a goat's head as characters
* speaking character of wisdom created from the petals of tree flowers (Gaiaism?), twice
* many demon-like characters
* demon revelry

LMAO! Especially at Mr. Tummus offending God :D

I am sorely tempted to write and correct this character's exercises for him, but I fear it would be one of those "waste of time and annoys the pig" undertakings.

He also has a link on his page to someone I am almost forced to describe as a whackjob, in that he concludes inter alia that:

i.) Lewis is a heretic who
i.a) did not believe in the divinity of Christ and
i.b) did not believe in Biblical inerrancy and
i.c) did not believe in salvation by faith,

and

ii.) Narnia books are an introduction to the occult because
ii.a) they contain "fabulous" creatures and
ii.b) they are sold in "occult" shops (by which I'm forced to believe that scented soap is a tool of Satan if it can be found in "occult" shops) and
ii.c) they are recommended reading for players of the "occult" game Dungeons and Dragons (even if D&D is indeed an "occult" game, which is a viewpoint found mainly in Jack Chick tracts and among people who know nothing about it, Lewis can hardly be held responsible for the character of the people who like him)

and

iii) Aslan actually represents the sun-god, not Christ,

and

iv) the bonfire party at the conclusion of Prince Caspian is exactly modelled on a witch's sabbat (I don't think he meant "sabot", which is a kind of wooden shoe or else the outer casing of an armour-piercing shell).

Oh, and
v) he knows personally an ex-Wiccan-turned-pastor who says he knew people found the books an excellent recruiting tool.

Therefore, for causing the little ones to fall into sin, it would be better for Lewis if a millstone were tied around his neck...


My friends, I say to you sincerely and without mockery: pray for these fools. :(

[Christine Marie]

Oh my, I didn't even get to those parts on the site. Yes, those people (or person) are/is completely coo-coo

v)iv) the bonfire party at the conclusion of Prince Caspian is exactly modelled on a witch's sabbat (I don't think he meant "sabot", which is a kind of wooden shoe or else the outer casing of an armour-piercing shell).

ah oh, dancing around a bonfire with people means you're worshipping Satan? I guess I'm going to hell for when I did that at Girl Guide camp :eek: :( :rolleyes:

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Oh, you should see what those types of people say about us Catholics. It would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.

[Christine Marie]

Oh, you should see what those types of people say about us Catholics. It would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.
Catholic!? Heathen! :mad:

;)

[SailorSaturn13]

Hoo boy. So you see, people are quite moderate here...

:) I know. On THEIR forum I wouldn't even try to post. I just wanted to make a point not to condemn someone for harmless joke. I DO like Lewis' books, otherwise I wouldn't be here.

[♥Green Eyed Goddess♥]

This thread is retarded!

[sarahnarnia1983]

yes it was sad but it is a very good ending and the best ending ive read in 18 years. its nice to know that they all live with aslan in the end.

[Malacandra]

This thread is retarded!

And as that's the word of someone who's been posting 35 times a day since mid-January, we'd better take notice of expert opinion. :p

H*ly cr*p *n * st*ck, do you not have a life, wma? :rolleyes: