Does Susan go to the "New Narnia"?/Whatever happened to Susan?

[judyfromkansas]

When I first read "The Last Battle" I received a genuine shock when I learned that Susan was no longer a friend of Narnia. Apparently she'd gone materialistic and turned away from the rest of her siblings.

Ever since then, I've wished that Lewis had written a book following up on Susan's fate.

If YOU were to write such a book, what would you have happen? :)

Me, I'd have her find her faith - and her way back to Narnia - again! :D

(BTW, "The Last Battle" is by far my LEAST favorite of the Chronicles).

[Ephinie]

If I were to follow it up... I would write a book in which we see Susan grown and married. The main story would be about her children finding their way into the wood between the worlds and having an adventure in a different sort of land (since Narnia would be destroyed by this time). In the end, when the children returned, they would talk to their mother about their experiences; and Susan would find her faith again in Narnia and Aslan through them. Such a story would also have to portray a certain amount of history with how Susan dealth with the angst of losing every single member of her family in a terrible train accident. One would logically assume also that in the end when she refinds her faith in Narnia, the angst will finally be resolved because she'll know that her parents and brothers and sisters are all in the "real" Narnia.

[I'mbigger/you'reolder]

I like those ideas. C.S. Lewis could really go to town on an issue like the once saved/always saved concept. You may think this idea is a little strange, but you could even gear this story to adults. Ephinie's idea would be cool, because it would relate more to the parents, and how "those games we played as children" might be the right way, contrary to what the world says. "Out of the mouth of babes..." would be a big point to make with a story like that.

[rosymole]

This may be a little controversial but I'm glad that not all the Pevensies made it to the end - because it makes the story seem more real. People will always fall by way side when it comes to faith and belief in something, and those that remain on the 'true path' as it were become stronger. Susan's fate shows the falability of human nature thereby reinforcing the other themes and behaviour in the stories.

oh, judyfromkansas - just so you know, strange as it may seen, not everyone who posts on this site has read all the books so be sure to alert the masses if your going to post a spoiler!

[cslouis]

Originally posted by judyfromkansas@Oct 17 2004, 10:39 AM
Ever since then, I've wished that Lewis had written a book following up on Susan's fate.
Yes, it seems important to me too that she is offered the same kind of opportunity for redemption that Edmund was. To see her be received back into Narnia. Didn't the Prof say in the LWW, "Once a King in Narnia, always a King in Narnia." So, she was not sent away, she went away.

[dave the gray]

"A sower went out to sow his seed. As he was sowing, some fell... on the rock; when it sprang up, it withered, since it lacked moisture. Other seed fell among thorns; the thorns sprang up with it and choked it.

And the seeds on the rock are those who, when they hear, welcome the word with joy. Having no root, these believe for a while and depart in a time of testing. As for the seed that fell among thorns, these are the ones who, when they have heard, go on their way and are choked with worries, riches, and pleasures of life, and produce no mature fruit."

Luke 8:4-15

[judyfromkansas]

Originally posted by Ephinie@Oct 17 2004, 10:48 AM
If I were to follow it up... I would write a book in which we see Susan grown and married. The main story would be about her children finding their way into the wood between the worlds and having an adventure in a different sort of land (since Narnia would be destroyed by this time). In the end, when the children returned, they would talk to their mother about their experiences; and Susan would find her faith again in Narnia and Aslan through them. Such a story would also have to portray a certain amount of history with how Susan dealth with the angst of losing every single member of her family in a terrible train accident. One would logically assume also that in the end when she refinds her faith in Narnia, the angst will finally be resolved because she'll know that her parents and brothers and sisters are all in the "real" Narnia.
Hmm. I like your idea! But why couldn't Susan's children actually find their way into Narnia? Remember, Narnian times flows differently from our own! Perhaps the children could find their way into Narnia's past - perhaps pick up the events from the time the original Kings and Queens blundered their way back into our world (after the hunt for the White Stag). Perhaps...and this is radical, I know...perhaps the children could even undo what led to Narnia's destruction - and then Narnia could live again! That IMO would rock. Then the oft-discussed possibility of new Narnia books might be made possible - if the right author were found...

Something to think about, anyway...

[queensusan]

I was surprised when I read The Last Battle. But I'm certain that if the story had really happened, or if Lewis had written more, eventually would come to terms of finding Christ again after the loss of all her family. She knew her siblings believed, and I supppose her parents did too. She must have known that.

[nejofsherwood]

Originally posted by rosymole@Oct 18 2004, 12:52 PM
This may be a little controversial but I'm glad that not all the Pevensies made it to the end - because it makes the story seem more real. People will always fall by way side when it comes to faith and belief in something, and those that remain on the 'true path' as it were become stronger. Susan's fate shows the falability of human nature thereby reinforcing the other themes and behaviour in the stories.

I agree, oddly I wouldn't like a perfect story. I like that it reflects reality by showing that some people do fall away. Besides, when I think about it, it's better that it's Susan rather than anyone else (or at least any of the Pevensies). I really think that, though no author is perfect, Lewis knew what he was doing.

[Bitter Milton]

Wheres Susan now? She didnt go back to Narnia, but is she out of the shadowlands?

[Specter]

Susan represented the people of this world that believed at one point, but fell away to disbelief, or were to engrossed in this world to worry about the next.

[Joogie]

That's an insightful interpretation, Paul. :)

I do agree with you in the respect of C.S. Lewis' intent for what she was supposed to represent, but in terms of story, I think it's utterly fascinating to speculate.

My idea is that all of the possessions of her family that was "smashed up on the British Railways" were handed over to her and that she eventually found the rings (which you recall Peter was carrying). Then I think she got into the Wood Between the Worlds and spent the rest of her life popping in and out of different lands because she didn't have the sense to "mark the home pool" the way Digory and Polly did.

Or she just went into a decline when she discovered that all her immediate family was dead.

Here's something else to throw into the discussion. Why did the Pevensie parents die as well? I don't think it further the plot very much at all, and it was a bit of coincidence. Is there some meaning behind it that I'm missing?

~Nelli.

[lieke]

at least they saw there parents, that means that they were out of the shadowlands aswel, but if they were with aslan now... i dont know?????? i think that susan is playing a game, i think she does know that there is a narnia and the other stuff, but that she will not admit it (if you understand)

[rosymole]

If you look at the CoN from a non-Christian point of view, as I do, then Susan's disapearence from the stories is merely her 'growing up', as was mentioned in the stories. SHe embraced the adult world and lost her innocence as children do, and there is nothing wrong with growing up and not wanting to 'make believe ' anymore. There comes a time when unfortunatley practicalities have to take over!
Also,the time the children were living in, if we consider the story as real, then the reality of the world situation would have made them grow up pretty quickly- evacuation, rationing and the threat of invasion can do a lot to extinguish childish play.
This is a very 2D way to look at it I know, so if you bring in the allegory then it does become more 'explainable', especially with the parents. Although when I was younger, much younger, there was also a slight fear caused by Susan's not being there - what would happen to me if when I grew up I didn't believe in the stories I'd been so involved with as a child?

[Specter]

The problem with that, Rosymole, is that C.S. Lewis wrote them from an entirely allegorical standpoint. I.E. Christian point of view.

Looking at them from a non-Christian point of view is somewhat contrary to the intentions of the author.

However, when practicalities must take over, we have to learn to distinguish WHICH stories to believe and which not to. Which are historical, and which are not. What should you be worried about and what shouldn't you be worried about.

[rosymole]

I see where you're coming from Paul and understand that in an ideal world everyone who read the CoN would immediately pick up the allegory and understand and appreciate it fully for what it is and does, but sadly not everyone will, people can live a very closed existence and only look at what is directly before them and not really it.
If people read things exactly as the author had intended all the time wouldn't this limit the scope for healthy debate?

[Specter]

Not necessarily. It might make the debate healthier. Let's take this poem for example:

Robert Frost's famous poem, "The Road Less Travelled"

Some claim it to be Anti-Christian. That is a very dangerous claim to make, and couldn't be further from the truth. The poem can be taken many other ways, but when you claim that an author intended negativity, it sheds a negative light on the artist. The poem stemmed from a time when he was on vacation and there was a dark night when he was on a path through some woods. There was a point where another path crossed his, and another man that looked remarkably like himself was walking on that one. He wondered where that man was travelling. He wrote to his wife about it, and the idea for the poem struck him. It's simply about that night, for the path he was on was becoming less of a path, because not many travelled by it.

[Bitter Milton]

I think she was definately an allegory, and the wood of worlds idea is a neat one.

maybe she just has to wait till she dies and then she'll go back to narnia. If the chronicles of narnia were true stories, then she could still be alive today!

[Bitter Milton]

Heres another example of Narnian time difference:

in LB Eustace and Jill and the rest of the friends of Narnia were all smashed up at the same time, right? but eustace and jill had their adventure in narnia and then found the pevensies in the stable. they said they were taken their right after the railway accident. whats up with that?

[ballon]

Personally, I think that what happened to Susan is obvious. After finding out about her families death she would surely be reminded of good time, and she would remember Narnia and beleive in it again. And after her renewed belief she would be brought back to live with her family in Narnia. In the last battle it states that " they lived happily ever after" and surely they couldnt be happy with out susan there also.

[ballon]

Anyone care to reply

[Specter]

that's a pretty good idea Ballon. We honestly don't know for sure and can't but that's sort of the impression that I get would and could possibly happen.

[Ithilien]

I like the idea of Susan as a wayward wanderer who gradually lost faith. It was kind of encouraging to know that the Pevensie children were not all pefect and had moments of discourage too. Still, like what cslouis said, I think I would like the idea of redemption so that she is saved in the end; that would be comforting. But I don't like the idea of a follow-up: that would take out the magic of the original chronicles and become very "Dune"- like (a sextet that has about 20 added prequels that no one really cares about).

[Daughter of Eve]

Well, I have to admit, I'm strange. I would make up stories, never write them down, but they'd be made up stories, about Susan, and her eventually coming back to Narnia. My personal favourite was that, oh, I think it was a daughter of one of her friends was coming to stay for a bit or something, and discovered an old painting of a lion in the attic, and asked if she could hang it up. So, she did, but Susan felt very uncomfortable looking at it. Then, she ended up going to an Easter service I believe, and when she came home, and saw the painting just looking at her, she remembered everything that happened, and.... yeah. :)

[kathianta]

Susan's fate, however realistic, always saddened me. The line that goes something like 'she's spent all her life trying to be the age she is, and she'll spend the rest of it trying to stay that way...' That really got me. I just found it really tragic that 'gentle' Susan lost faith. And I thought maybe it was a bit out of character. You could probably explain it away with her age, if you were to write a sequel - you know, blame it on a personality crisis due to adolescence. Personally, I didn't like The Last Battle that much. It was a bit too religious for me (although that could have been that by the time I read it, I understood the references), and on top of Susan's remaining in the 'real' world', there was the way in which CS Lewis disposed of the others in this world. That was horrific!

[VeritasRatioque3D]

Hmm. I like your idea! But why couldn't Susan's children actually find their way into Narnia? Remember, Narnian times flows differently from our own! Perhaps the children could find their way into Narnia's past - perhaps pick up the events from the time the original Kings and Queens blundered their way back into our world (after the hunt for the White Stag). Perhaps...and this is radical, I know...perhaps the children could even undo what led to Narnia's destruction - and then Narnia could live again! That IMO would rock. Then the oft-discussed possibility of new Narnia books might be made possible - if the right author were found...
Something to think about, anyway...

Actually, I'm afraid it wouldn't work. Narnia time, while different from our time, still follows a strict foward moving linear motion like ours. In other words, time might move faster in Narnia but once the time has passed you cannot go back to it. Just like in our world, once the time is used that's it, no more. The time relationship between earth and Narnia can be illustrated by two lines paralleling each other. The “left� ends of the lines are stationary and cannot move – this is the beginning of time. The right sides, however, are both constantly extending further right. The Narnia line moves faster than the earth line and is therefore longer than the earth line. The time jump works like this. The children are at the very end of the right side of the earth line (the present) and they jump to the very right end of the Narnia line (the present in Narnia). In the time they spend there, the line moves 3 feet. They are still at the very right end of the line because they are always in the present, they are just 3 feet further into the future than they were when they arrived on the Narnia line. Now, at the time the Narnia line has moved three feet, the earth line has not even moved 1/8 of an inch. When the jump back to the earth line, they jump to the very right end of the line. Then, when they go back to Narnia for the second time, they once again jump to the very right end of the Narnia line which has now moved say 20 feet, while the earth line has only moved 1 foot. See how this works? Time moves forward in both places, one time just moves faster than the other. No one can go back in time in Narnia (except Aslan) just as no one can go back in time here on earth.

Oh, and Narnia was never destroyed. It was the shadow of Narnia that was destroyed. All the characters (except Susan) find themselves in the real Narnia at the end of the LB. Why would you want to undo the destruction of a shadow? No one would want to go back to that shadow after they had experienced the “more real� Narnia.

[Lord Darcey]

I was reading this and getting ready to get back to my homework (midterms tomorrow and I'm still studying), when popped into my head a little (fairly gruesome and not at all Narnia-like) story fragment. Susan has been staying with her boyfriend (she's in her late teens/early twenties, right?), but she has been having nightmares about the death of her family. One day, Aslan comes to her in her sleep and tells her that her family is fine, and they wave to her. Now she is reassured and believes once more but she wants to get back to Narnia. Not realizing that they are in the real Narnia now, she thinks she can get in by going back to the wardrobe. She manages to track it down to an auction, buys it, and brings it home, but when she goes into the wardrobe, she finds instead of being in Narnia she is in a cold abyss and she can't get out. She panicks, cries, and feels sorry for herself. She's getting cold and her hands are going numb, so she reaches back into her memory and brings back the images of sitting cheerfully by a fire with her family, and it's as if she's there. She's warm and renewed and she opens her eyes and finds herself in the real Narnia. Her body is found in the wardrobe, dead of a heart attack at age nineteen (or whatever age she happens to be).

And this is why I would never, ever be hired to write anything for the Narnia series. W00t. *hides* I'm actually debating not pressing the submit button, but oh well.

[faeriechylde]

Wow...
In spite of the fact that you may be right about not writing anything to do with Narnia, Lord Darcey, I would venture to say that whatever you might write would be critically acclaimed. That sort of depressing but deep thing is exactly what they're making me read in college right now, lol.

[faeriechylde]

Why would you want to undo the destruction of a shadow? No one would want to go back to that shadow after they had experienced the “more real� Narnia.
Amen to that! :cool:

[DryadofLanternWaste]

Narnia was never destroyed. It was the shadow of Narnia that was destroyed. Why would you want to undo the destruction of a shadow? No one would want to go back to that shadow after they had experienced the “more real� Narnia.

can I reword and borrow that quote from you for my siggy?

[Soli_Deo_Gloria]

I dunno that your story fragment is so depressing. Look at it this way. I just had a friend in college die and the worst part is wondering if he was a Christian. Yet if Susan were to be visited by and your fragment run its course Susan would wind up in the real Narnia and the shadow of this world. What is better? True that those left in this world would grieve, but she would be in a much cooler place. Small problem might be the wardrobe ceased to be a door to Narnia. I think Prof. Digory made that comment at the end of LWW.

[faeriechylde]

You're right, SDG, I spoke too soon. It's not depressing at all. But Lord Darcey never said Susan went through the Wardrobe to Narnia, just a cold abyss, and besides, that could have been all in her mind. Wow, it really is an amazing psychological allegory! Are you planning on being a writer at all, Lord Darcey? Because you have talent, I must say.
And to Dryad: haha, you're right about VR3D's quote. It's awesome!

[Lyra Chappell]

I think Susan found her family dead and inherited everything from all of them; I think she ended up lonely and wealthy, living an empty life. Maybe she searches the Earth for the Wardrobe...maybe she used the rings...Maybe she never got to Narnia again. But if she did, it would happen because she found a way to make it happen. A strange view; people would say, how awful, her whole family dead, how could a loving God let this happen? Just Lewis' way of demonstrating; we don't know or understand the reasons behind what God does, but we can trust that He loves us. :rolleyes:

[rosymole]

That's an interesting idea Lyra, sounds quite plausible too. Welcome to the site!

[she-elfwarrior19]

yes i sort of agree with ballon, its quite a good hypothisis

[inkspot]

I have wondered about the parents and Susan. It was a bit rough of Lewis to leave Susan there alone with her whole family smashed up on the railway. If he just put the Pevensie parents there so the kids could be happy to be in the new Narnia for eternity, what about Jill and Eustace's parents? I do like the idea that maybe Susan came into possession of the rings, and that brought back to her how real Narnia was, and she was able to use the rings to join her family ...

[inkspot]

A couple of observations. I don't have the books with me, so I cannot quote chapter and verse, but of the four kids, Susan is always the one in a crisis who wishes they had never begun their adventure, so it is not out of character that she distances herself from Narnia. I am thinking she says they ought to turn back when they first get into Narnia, then for sure at the end of LWW when the grown-up kings and queens are chasing the white stag and it bounds into the unknown, she counsels the rest to stop following and turn back for Cair Paravel. In these instances, I think Lewis is foreshadowing that she will eventually "turn back" from Narnia. Also, I like the idea of grown-up Susan trying to find her way back to Narnia, but I think in TMN, the Wood Between the Worlds has just dried up puddles for worlds that have ceased to exist, so perhaps if she tried to get back to Narnia, she would find herself there, just looking at the dried up spot where she can't go -- and instead she might go to some other world, and there meet Aslan as he is in that world, and make her peace with him in that form?

[legolas]

When I first read "The Last Battle" I received a genuine shock when I learned that Susan was no longer a friend of Narnia. Apparently she'd gone materialistic and turned away from the rest of her siblings.

Ever since then, I've wished that Lewis had written a book following up on Susan's fate.

If YOU were to write such a book, what would you have happen? :)

Me, I'd have her find her faith - and her way back to Narnia - again! :D

(BTW, "The Last Battle" is by far my LEAST favorite of the Chronicles).


What??! I don't remember that!!! :eek:

[legolas]

I have not read the books, but I am listening to the tape now! It's in the last battle part now.

[legolas]

OK, I got to the part, I believe you... :( She saw the part I played In the school play... :(

[Mudpuddle]

That is one inconstancy in the Chronicles. In one book Aslan says that once you are a king or queen of Narnia, you are always a king or queen in Narnia. Yet, Susan losses her queenship.

[waterhogboy]

However, Susan doesnt die in the crash - there's still time...

[legolas]

However, Susan doesnt die in the crash - there's still time...

Thats true. But you would have to right the book yourself! And I don't think anyone would let you do that. The Last Battle was CSL last book. But I prefer to look at it like that. ;) :p

[NarniaDreamer]

So I've been searching for a while for an answer to my question. And quite simply there isn't one or at least it's not a good one! Yes, Peter said Susan was "no longer a friend of Narnia." But Aslan also said, at the very end of The Last Battle, "There was a real railway accident. Your father and mother and all of you are--as you used to call it in the Shadowlands--dead." So is it safe to assume Susan was left alone in the world having to bear the grief of losing her entire family in a horrific accident? Friend of Narnia or not--that's harsh! I guess I just wish everyone had a "happily ever-after" ending.

[legolas]

Yes, Peter said Susan was "no longer a friend of Narnia."

Actually, only Susan 'turned against them' or " was no longer a friend of Narnia"

[rosymole]

Didn't she go to america at some point during the CoN? I think that's true, maybe while VDT was happening? Perhaps she stayed there?

[inkspot]

Welcome, NarniaDreamer, I didn't see you post before.

I have wondered about Susan, too, but I think she had a happy ending. I think she grew up and married and had children, and then when her children read the Chronicles of Narnia, Susan remembered it all! And she told them the stories were about her and her (dead?) siblings! So they were all excited about it and wanted to try to get to Narnia because their mother knew it was a real place. They somehow magicked themselves into the Wood Between the Worlds, but Susan didn't know what had happened to them and had to follow ... and they all came to Narnia one way and another. :D
And they lived happily ever after.

[legolas]

You know what, how about you just write a good detailed book about that and see if anyone will publish it! :D ;)

[holyboy]

I think Susan told the narrator of the CoN what happenerd in Narnia, or else how would he know what happened in Narnia? Susan was probably told by Edmond and Lucy by what happened when they were trying to convince her that Narnia existed. It never said the narrator actually went to Narnia, so how else was he suppost to know what happened in Narnia?

[Wallis]

I like your thought Holyboy666. Several times Lewis indicates that he was told certain things. Perhaps it was Susan.

Susan could represent a lot of people who start out believing in things, "fall away," and then return after running a gauntlet of life's experiences and feeling one's mortality.

What is comforting is that Aslan/Christ never forgot or abandoned Susan, just like in the real world.

[legolas]

That is very true!! I never knew who Susan represented until now!! :)

[Tarkheena_Finduilas22]

ack! spoilers spoilers spoilers! I haven't read the book yet! :p

[inkspot]

ack! spoilers spoilers spoilers! I haven't read the book yet! :p
You better read it now...

[Reepicheep1707]

How would the Narrator know what was going on through The last battle if Susan was not there, and everyone had died in the accident? Or had the narrator ever been to Narnia? I might have missed that.

[inkspot]

The narrator is always CS Lewis, occasionallly he says something in the first person ("if there is a story about it and it is at all interesting, I may tell it in another book"), but he never does say how he knows the stories. We were just speculating that perhaps Susan told him, but there's no way she could have told him the eventsof TLB, as you say.

[Prodigious1One]

I just finished reading "The Last Battle" this evening. I love it. The ending is so joyful and wondrous. I hope that Susan joined them all in the new Narnia, but it seems that she has lost her "faith" or she became too vain. I expected Aslan to to make mention of her, but she isn't a topic after Peter makes his comment concerning her to King Tirian.

I was worried about Susan in "Prince Caspian" because of her somewhat "non-chalant" attitude when she and Peter weren't believing that Lucy saw Aslan. It seemed that she made her heart bit hard more than Peter. Then in Voyage of the Dawn Treader she was hip and happy in New York, and then I thought: "Gee--she is a bit far and away."

If there's any hope; Aslan did say that their parents were there, however their characters were not presented, that is, no one saw them and they didn't speak, so perhaps Susan is there.

Maybe C.S. Lewis left that open for the reader to dwell on. "The Last Battle" does have very explicit Christian teachings, probably the most poignant is that of the dwarves who aren't able to acknowledge the new Narnia and her trapped in their own minds. Emeth has a really great story, worshipping a false god with true heart, and receiving grace from Aslan in the end.

[Wallis]

I am compiling a list of conversations that Susan makes from LWW. From my pickle barrel, she is a very reluctant participant. She clearly did not want to be in Narnia.

She becomes even "nastier" the second time she arrives. Then, we see a good view of her vanity in the Horse and His Boy.

I feel that Susan was downright glad that she was "barred" from Narnia and wanted to forget all about Narnia as she grew older.

This opinion should not paint her as "bad." There are a lot of people who do not fancy "fantasy" or things that just do not fit in with the "real world." Perhaps we can speculate that she was "somebody" in the "real world," whereas she had to share notoriety in Narnia. She, like many people, are much more comfortable in a world where norms are set, very little changes, and there is a kind of structure in which a person can find one's place, even when one's goals is to climb the social ladder as far as one can climb.

[Warrior-Poet51088]

If there's any hope; Aslan did say that their parents were there, however their characters were not presented, that is, no one saw them and they didn't speak, so perhaps Susan is there.


If I am remembering rightly, which is questionable(!), it's mentioned that the children do see their parents--they're in another country within the New Narnia.

I really need to re-read the series!

[Reepicheep1707]

As far as I can remember, the children look off and see there parents, and there parents even wave to them.

[inkspot]

I dunno if it's still posted on the home page of this website, but I wrote an essay on this subject ... it would be toward the bottom of the page ...

[inked]

The possibility, indeed, IMHO, likelihood, is that Susan has fallen from grace and is not saved. Period. I know no one likes that idea, but reality is that men and women can choose to reject salvation for the delights and charms and illusions of the world. No matter how notorious the sinner, repentance even at the moment of death (in articulo mortis) is accepted, AND refusal of grace is permitted. This is the meaning of the thieves co-crucified with Jesus. One repents and adheres to the Lord; the other scoffs and refuses to believe. One is saved that all may hope; one is damned that none may presume. Each acts according to his own free will. Susan, therefore, is the painful reality that once a king or queen in Narnia does not mean that one is always a king or queen in Narnia in the sense of absolute admission is guaranteed regardless of how one lives one's life or the overwhelming evidence of grace in one's life. Remember the Lord's words in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus the beggar, "Some would not believe though one rose from the dead." AS painful as it is to face, human choice matters. In the end, there are those who say to God, "Thy will be done;" and those to whom God says, "Your will be done." Susan chose to reject Narnia: she denied it, apostasized to faith in Aslan in Narnia and Jesus in this world, and chose the vain and empty things over substance and reality.

This is painful, Inkspot, I know for you because of your essay. Sorry. But it is clearly Mr Lewis intent to establish that there is a distinction between heaven and hell (THE GREAT DIVORCE as he called it and wrote). Human choice makes that distinction real in this life and the next! One may hear, "Well done, you good and faithful servant,' or "Depart from me, I never knew you." Both have Dominical authority and weight and import.

I think highly unlikely that the author of THE GREAT DIVORCE would mean the opposite in Narnia. It would be an offense against consistency and logic that I cannot fathom Lewis having made. One may hope that I misunderstand or that Lewis was wrong, but I don't think he left the option of both.

[inkspot]

Each acts according to his own free will ... it is clearly Mr Lewis intent to establish that there is a distinction between heaven and hell (THE GREAT DIVORCE as he called it and wrote). Human choice makes that distinction real in this life and the next!
Uh-oh, you're going to get this thread locked up, too! :p
I think Lewis leaves it open as to what happens to Susan, and my imagining of it is as valid as yours and far nicer! Why should we surmise Su is lost forever just because she has strayed at this moment? I know from personal experience that it is possible to be no longer a friend of Narnia at one point in your life, and then to rediscover the faith and pursue it with an even more real and mature passion at a later point. It could happen for Susan, too! And God, knowing everything (while not always making it happen) would have known that eventually Susan would return to Him, so there was no possibility of a lie in the promise, "Once a King or Queen in Narnia, always a King or Queen in Narnia."

[inked]

I knew you'd say that. :)

Notice I said in articulo mortis.

If Susan is alive, she could repent and return. If she isn't, it's too late. If she won't, she's doomed herself.

But, we can agree to disagree! It's just that you are wrong! :p

There is no lie to "once a Queen or King in Narnia, always a King or Queen." From the perspective of eternity to which all moments are present, that is emphatically a true statement. But that does not mean "once saved always safe" in the sense that one can never fall from eternal salvation. Indeed, if the damned are able to view the past and their opportunities for salvation rejected, it will be to increase their punishment by self will. On the other hand, they may see it as "freedom" or "liberation" and dwell in self-satisfied annhilation. The choice matters.

[inkspot]

Notice I said in articulo mortis.
What does that mean?
I think it means I am right. :p

[inked]

in articulo mortis "at the moment of death"

The state the soul is in at the moment of death when it is subjected to the particular judgement: that is, in a state of grace, or a state of rejection of God. (See Dorothy L. Sayers' discussion in her introduction to Purgatory for a lucid and brief discussion. AFTER you finish HBP! :D )

[Wallis]

There is an "end" piece of the puzzle that is missing. Only Susan is left out of her immediate family. The Chronicles end with a view of heaven. What Lewis left out is the impact of the tremendous loss of family for Susan.

We can only speculate how this tragedy might have affected Susan. From real life experience, I have seen tragedy both drive people closer to God and also further from God.

[Narnia12]

So I've been searching for a while for an answer to my question. And quite simply there isn't one or at least it's not a good one! Yes, Peter said Susan was "no longer a friend of Narnia." But Aslan also said, at the very end of The Last Battle, "There was a real railway accident. Your father and mother and all of you are--as you used to call it in the Shadowlands--dead." So is it safe to assume Susan was left alone in the world having to bear the grief of losing her entire family in a horrific accident? Friend of Narnia or not--that's harsh! I guess I just wish everyone had a "happily ever-after" ending.
You are so right !!!!!!!!! narnia12

[inked]

People are so desperate for their to be a "happy ending" that they will abolish free will and insist on universal salvation against human will. Susan must be saved so I can feel good. Problem is, ya'll, that Susan had free will and she was no longer a friend of Narnia by choice. Her choice. If she died in the train crash it was an eternal choice, not redeemable. It is so very hard to hear the Dominical, "Not all who say to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven." All who choose to follow Him are admitted, "He who comes to me I will in no wise cast out," but all who choose to reject Him are free to so do.
Same with Narnia. Lewis has painted a picture of the consequences of human free will. And note that the joy and happiness of those choosing Aslan and Narnia is NOT interfered with by Susan's choice not to believe in Narnia. It is a datum with no adverse effects on the Friends of Narnia. It's easy to believe Jadis did not make it to Aslan's Country for she opposed Aslan from the first, but Susan's opposition is not less real because she came to it late. Same for us! Choices count, here and now, then, and eternally!

We could wish otherwise, but the Universe nor Heaven run on wish-fulfillment! Therefore, choose wisely, build on rock not sand!!!

[unleavened]

I agree w/ you, inked. I think Lewis painted a realistic picture of the kindom of Heaven. Even those we loved so much on earth, if they refuse to believe and live by the truth, will not be there. God, b/c he is loving and merciful, made a way for us to get to Him, but we must take the the way he provides.

[Tarkheena_Finduilas22]

I finally read it and now I can add.

The book was sooooo sad! But also happy too, because they once again see all their friends in Heaven.

Does anyone think about Eustace (Spelling???) or Jill's families? what about them? they suffered to loss of a loved one as well didn't they? I think it's very sad for them, just as it is for anyone, but if only we could realize how happy they were with everything, I think we'd be happy as well. Knowing they were safe. It's very complicated to express all I have inside about this book. I guess I can't type very fast!

Susan was wrong to turn against Narnia, but that is what many people do about God nowadays! They turn against him and they will suffer the penalty. No escaping. God gave man the chance to make decicions. But what did we do? We sined. And God still lets us make decicions. Susan made the wrong one. She had the power to do the right, but didn't. It is her own fault. I do think there is a happy ending though. For the rest of them. But there is no use trying to make a happy ending for Susan.

Maybe when we get to heaven, we can ask C S Lewis about all this. :o

[Wallis]

Eustac'es parent probably would have turned their anger against the Pevensies for "corrupting" their "perfect" son.

Jill's parent swould have naturally mourned.

But in death, there should also be great joy. We survivors mourn out of a selfishness: we won't see our loved ones again in this world. But we should also celebrate that our loved ones are finally FREE!

[holyboy]

Jill's parent swould have naturally mourned.

Its hard to say what Jill's parents would do, because there wasn't as much time spent with Jill to develop her character (in my opinion, they only gave her a book and a half for development) and we are never introduced to Jill's life outside the school, which was for a chapter and a half, so it is hard to determine how Jill's parents would have reacted if we didn't get to know her as well as the other children.

[Hwin_46]

Welcome, NarniaDreamer, I didn't see you post before.

I have wondered about Susan, too, but I think she had a happy ending. I think she grew up and married and had children, and then when her children read the Chronicles of Narnia, Susan remembered it all! And she told them the stories were about her and her (dead?) siblings! So they were all excited about it and wanted to try to get to Narnia because their mother knew it was a real place. They somehow magicked themselves into the Wood Between the Worlds, but Susan didn't know what had happened to them and had to follow ... and they all came to Narnia one way and another. :D
And they lived happily ever after.


One small problem: The Narnia Susan knew of would have ended by the time any of this had happened and neither she nor her offspring would be able to get to the REAL Narnia.

[inkspot]

One small problem: The Narnia Susan knew of would have ended by the time any of this had happened and neither she nor her offspring would be able to get to the REAL Narnia.
Only if you believe in linear time. If you believe, like me, that God exists altogether in every time and no time, then it follows that everything exists at once ...

[rosymole]

I think i see what you mean Inky, but as you know my theolog is not too hot..but if Susan did have children and she told them about Narnia and about the ideas behind it - the love, acceptance, truth, faith etc, then when their time came they would still get to the 'New' Narnia, because they had accepted it all before hand even though it (being the old Narnia) didn't exist anymore..just as we don't live in the same Biblical world of the OT/NT but still accept it's values and believe heaven is waiting for us?

[inkspot]

I think i see what you mean Inky, but as you know my theolog is not too hot..but if Susan did have children and she told them about Narnia and about the ideas behind it - the love, acceptance, truth, faith etc, then when their time came they would still get to the 'New' Narnia, because they had accepted it all before hand even though it (being the old Narnia) didn't exist anymore..just as we don't live in the same Biblical world of the OT/NT but still accept it's values and believe heaven is waiting for us?
Yes, I like this idea. That seems to line up right, we're not living in Bible times, but the Bible's ideas still work for us.

Also, in my story, maybe they get into the Wood between the Worlds and have adventures in other lands, and by the time they make it to Narnia (if there is any such thing as time) they get into the new Narnia, the True Narnia, at the end of The Last Battle. Remember because of the muddle with time, you might arrive back in Narnia and find 100 years had passed, or no time at all, so they might just come a little late into the new Narnia.

[Wallis]

You know what is interesting? Even as on another thread we are searching for a new "C.S.Lewis," all of our comments are expanding and enriching the original seven published books.

[inkspot]

You know what is interesting? Even as on another thread we are searching for a new "C.S.Lewis," all of our comments are expanding and enriching the original seven published books.
Yeah, and some of us have even posted some fan fiction over in the Professors Notebook that keep the stories alive and moving forward, too. I should write my one about Susan ... when I get the time ...

[Zaffie]

*OKAY* Susan does'nt turn against the rest , she gets older (No duh') and whenever the others metion anything about Narnia she just says it was a game they that her, lucy, peter, and edmund played when they were "Kids"

[holyboy]

That is an interesting insight, Zaffie, but it raises another question: Do the Friends of Narnia "grow up" too, or are they still "kids?"

[borntofly]

they do grow up, but they still have the faith they had in their childhood. Digory and Polly got older but I don't think that changed anything. They stay kids in away unlike Susan who got too caught up in the world and wanting to be old that she lost her faith.

[TimmyofOz]

Inkspot, you must remember the promise "Once a Queen of Narian, always a Queen of Narnia". I don't just wish happy endings, The Lord makes promises to complete the good work he has started in us. I am not the Calvinist I use to be. People do leave the faith in our eyes. What the Holy Spirit is doing, i only have His Word to us as my understanding. I too have always imagined a good sequel that picks up with what happens to Susan. Even wrote a starting chapter myself. But where is she to go, Narnia is no more. Going to the New Narnia wouldn't do. It is Heaven, not a place where you deal with evil, both inner and outer kinds. Jumping into a pool won't work to get there anyhow, when only the Door that Peter seals in LB is the only way to New Narnia. Is there a way to get permission to write a sequel? Another Chistian writer did write a sequel to The Screwtape Letters. :(

[inked]

ToO,

The phrase about once a king or queen, always one does not necessarily imply a "once saved always saved" Calvinistic approach to Susan. It remains as an historical fact in both the Earth of the Pevensies and the Narnia of the Pevensies that the High Kings and Queens really and truly existed and altered the course of that world. A fact, as someone famously observed, is a truth made physical, and once that is accomplished, not even Aslan or Jesus will alter it in Narnia or here! And, since Narnia is ended in the physical fact sense within the Narniaverse, it is an UNALTERABLE reality that Susan was always shall have been a Queen there. That does not mean that she ultimately ends in the Real Narnia without regard to her later life choices. That is my take, at any rate.

[inkspot]

But where is she to go, Narnia is no more. Going to the New Narnia wouldn't do. It is Heaven, not a place where you deal with evil, both inner and outer kinds. Jumping into a pool won't work to get there anyhow, when only the Door that Peter seals in LB is the only way to New Narnia. (
Criminy, Timmy, rain on my parade! :(

[TimmyofOz]

Inked, Like I said I'm not the calvinist I use to be. My Ex-wife fooled me and maybe herself into seeing herself as a Christian. She loves Jesus like her love of country but don't let that get in you way of abandoning you husband for another man. So people do follow what they think of as Jesus. Did Susan do that? That is her story. She fell away and LB was the last book. :(

[waterhogboy]

Inked, Like I said I'm not the calvinist I use to be. My Ex-wife fooled me and maybe herself into seeing herself as a Christian. She loves Jesus like her love of country but don't let that get in you way of abandoning you husband for another man. So people do follow what they think of as Jesus. Did Susan do that. She fell away and LB was the last book. :(

That's true, if Aslan and Jesus are the same person, when she stopped believing in Aslan, she stopped believing in Jesus too...

[inkspot]

That's true, if Aslan and Jesus are the same person, when she stopped believing in Aslan, she stopped believing in Jesus too...
But that doesn't mean she stopped believing forever. I know this very well because of my own checquered past (yes, Inky was once checquered and not always the plain, sweet and wholesome gal you know and love). In Revelation 2:4-5, Jesus said, "But you walked away from your first love--why? What's going on with you, anyway? Do you have any idea how far you've fallen? A Lucifer fall! Turn back! Recover your dear early love. No time to waste, for I'm well on my way to removing your light from the golden circle" (The Message Bible).

It's clear that anyone who once loved Christ can return to Him and love Him again, no matter how far they have fallen (trust me on this!). And in books that are not Scripture and are fantsasy with already a twist about how much times passes there while you are away from the fantasy land, I don't see why Susan couldn't get back, even if she were an old grandma.

Timmy: sorry about your ex, that is dreadful. But it's human (carnal), too. Jesus loves and forgives, and He helps you do the same, blessed be He.

[TimmyofOz]

Thanks Inkspot, LB was the final book. And Aslan made it a practice never to be open about other's story. "No one is told any story but their own". CS Lewis wanted to inject that Susan had fell away and the other friends of Narnia knew it. But her story is not told and Aslan wasn't going to help us. Lewis probably did this on purpose so we would debate her fate and trust in Aslan (Jesus). :D

[TimmyofOz]

In VDT Aslan tells the children they need to know Him in their world. I just hope the Susans of this world know Jesus and not waste too much time about Aslan. Maybe she will just grow out of the baby's milk of Aslan to something better. Is that blaphemy here? :eek:

[inkspot]

Nah, not blasphemy. But being as Aslan and Christ are the same, it's a meaningless distinction. It's my belief Susan returned to Christ and was reunited with her family in the New Narnia by the end of her days. :D

[infinityfulfilled]

In "The Last Battle", I think one of the children mention that Susan is more interested in nylons (or something of that sort) than Narnia anymore. Since the Chronicles and especially "The Last Battle" is related to Lewis' Christian beliefs, I think Lewis is implying that Susan has become materialistic and therefore has fallen away from those beliefs. If you look at "The Screwtape Letters", in Screwtape's first letter to Wormwood he suggests that its really important to keep his patient seeing a lot of his materialist friend to keep him with "the Father Below".

[meraby]

Nah, not blasphemy. But being as Aslan and Christ are the same, it's a meaningless distinction. It's my belief Susan returned to Christ and was reunited with her family in the New Narnia by the end of her days. :D


Sorry all... I have not posted for quite some time (and not on this thread). Been quite busy. Anyhow, I found this discussion interesting in a number of ways. First, C.S. Lewis absolutely believed that Susan "Lost her salvation." It was inherent in his theology per the screwtape letters. Thus, in the fiction C.S. Lewis writes, Susan is lost and will never again feel the love of Aslan, unless she repents and comes to Christ. Remember, they were brought there so they could come to know Christ better in this world. Susan rejected Aslan and by definition, Jesus.

Now.. I DARE not touch the predestination argument! or by extension, the once saved always saved argument. LOL..

[meraby]

Nah, not blasphemy. But being as Aslan and Christ are the same, it's a meaningless distinction. It's my belief Susan returned to Christ and was reunited with her family in the New Narnia by the end of her days. :D

OOPS...... I quoted the wrong one last time... Sorry. LOL, out of practice.

Now, It would be impossible to be reunited in Narnia, as Susan was not brought into Narnia. She now belongs to this world. However, if Susan comes to Christ, she can once again be reunited. However, in heaven, she would be in England. Which ajoins Narnia and every other world. Thus, they are reunited, in a way.

[TimmyofOz]

Meraby seem to think that once backside always backside. :rolleyes:

[meraby]

Meraby seem to think that once backside always backside. :rolleyes:

Actually, I don't. Please re-read my post again. I think you may have misunderstood it.

[inkspot]

I get it. You think for sure Susan is not saved (not a believer in Christ) at the end of TLB, and I agree. But Lewis mercifully did not have her on the platform or the train, so she survived when all her family was killed. Why? Because while she is alive in the shadlowlands, she may yet return to Christ and be reunited with her family in heaven. It's my idea that the New Narnia is a symbol of heaven, and as it adjoins the New England, also a symbol of heaven, she will find her family there and be with them. Why not?

[meraby]

I get it. You think for sure Susan is not saved (not a believer in Christ) at the end of TLB, and I agree. But Lewis mercifully did not have her on the platform or the train, so she survived when all her family was killed. Why? Because while she is alive in the shadlowlands, she may yet return to Christ and be reunited with her family in heaven. It's my idea that the New Narnia is a symbol of heaven, and as it adjoins the New England, also a symbol of heaven, she will find her family there and be with them. Why not?


EXACTAMUNDO!!!

Although I personally disagree with C.S. Lewis. I don't believe that a person can lose thier salvation.

[Narnian_Blade]

If the book was extended, what would become of Susan, and how to you think CS Lewis would put it? Originally, he wrote these stories as stories, but he tried to make comparisions to the christianity side of things.

In this book, Susan does not come to Narnia because she pretty much stopped believing it or something. But she was still alive in the "non narnian" world. In time, do you think she would have gone back to believing in narnia after she got over herself? (like so many christians do after they fall away from the faith) I was just thinking that after a while, she would come to her senses and then get to the new narnia that aslan created. This of course is just my imagination, and I am curious how everyone else thinks it would have turned out.

[Girlie]

Well, if Susan turned back to her faith, wouldn't it be too late for her? I mean in the end times Jesus will return but there's not going to be anymore chances after that. So because there is a new Narnia, she probably cannot get in even if she turns back and then dies.
Well, at least that's how my thinking goes.

[Narnian_Blade]

Hmmm, possibly, but for some reason, I always had it in my head that she still had a chance. I mean, the doors to narnia weren't closed after LB were they? I'm not sure exactly how that relates to end times, but I know that the end times are really a process as described in the bible, but I'm sure how it works in narnia :p

[Mudpuddle]

>In time, do you think she would have gone back to believing in narnia after she got over herself?
She would have to or Aslan would be shown to be a liar. Remember it was Aslan who said that once you were a King or Queen of Narnia you were always a King or Queen of Narnia. I don't see any conditions or room for loop-holes in this statement.

[Inklet]

Here is where I most love this recurring theme in Narnia:

We are only told our own stories.

Aslan knows all our stories, but he is no gossip. We'll just have to wait.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Lots of room for speculation here, of course, but my thought would be that if Susan didn't die in the train crash (and there's no indication that she did), and later returned in her life to following Christ (Aslan in this world), that she would be welcomed to Paradise upon death. And, of course, since Paradise is Aslan's Country, and all worlds are mere spurs off that, I would think she certainly could return to the Real Narnia.

[Narnian_Blade]

Thanks everyone for all your insight her. Yes, it's true that Aslan only tells us our own stories, but that just gets my imagination going! (I very much like this aspect of it).

Somehow I figured that she would turn back and get into narnia but I didn't know why.

"Once a king or queen in narnia, always a king or queen in narnia."

That pretty much speaks for itself. She'll be arriving later!

[@tlantis]

When I'm thinking of what became of Suzan I always think of her standing beside the open graves of her brothers and sister. Think of what C.S. Lewis wrote in the problem of pain: suffering is God's megaphone.

There's a real teaching in her story... for all of us.

[Narnian_Blade]

Oh I would have to agree on that one too. The death of her siblings must have been a real wakeup call for Susan.

Similar things happen in our world for the same purpose.

[SusanTheBenevolent]

I think that when she saw she'd lost her brothers and sisters she'd believe again. I think that she fell in the trap of material things because she didn't realise that there were others that mattered much more. I have no doubt that if she'd been made to choose between her family and everything she may wish in the world she would have said her family.

The problem is that sometimes you don't see your true priorities until it's too late to do something about it. Her siblings and parents' deaths probably opened Susan's eyes and brought her back to Narnia. Susan is always fearful, but not just for her own well-being, also for her siblings'. She is too attached to the physical world and that's a proble, for sure, but she still tries to do what's 'best' (even if she is clueless). I mean, her disattachment from Narnia is not because she stops believing in good, but because she apparently has 'grown up'. And let me tell you, considering they live in a post-war world, it'd be very easy to lose your faith. Many bad things happen in a war, all of them terrible, and the physical may get huge importance (staying alive being the priority, for example).

But of course the loss of what's truely important would probably make her find Narnia a lot easier than before. Some of the best christians (or devoted to any religion) are actually people who had lost their faith. Having faith just for the sake of it is fanatism. Seeing for yourself why that faith helps you is what makes you devoted. Susan was absolutely unable to have blind faith, but it seems that after something like the death of her family she'd have it more than ever. She'd want them to be well, to start with. She'd wish to be with them. And eventually she'd remember what she thought she'd forgotten.

Also, think about her siblings. Do you really think that they would be able to be completely happy without Susan in there? They needed their parents to find true happiness, and Susan is doubtlessly one of those they love. Once a queen in Narnia... I got the message that Susan would come to her senses eventually. Also, isn't God's main (one of them) role to forgive? Susan may have to go through another test of faith. But this time she'd pass it.

[raven]

you guys think Narnia is "heaven"? Explain to me how they would have ever gone before....they weren't dead..

[Aslan the Wise one]

I think if CSL had more time he would have bad the Narnia books more deeper such has tolkiens Lotr.

[MissBeaver]

um well, you know in the Last Battle when the children die in the train crash and they see their parents and Aslan takes the to the new narnia. (i hope that was correct lol) i'm not sure whether Susan goes with them...because they explain in earlier chapters, that she is so keen on growing up that she has forgot all about narnia. and it would be terribly sad if all the other other children got to go to the new narnia and susan dosn't. she one of my favourite characters you see. may i have missed something..

[inkspot]

I think you got it right. She does not go at that time because she is in America, but Lewis leaves it open. Perhaps she returns to Aslan before she crosses that great divide of death. I hope so. :)

[Aslan Footsoldier]

you guys think Narnia is "heaven"? Explain to me how they would have ever gone before....they weren't dead..

narnia is not heaven, but the 'new' narnia that exists in LB is. hope this helps!

[onlymystory]

Susan could also find Jesus in England (who is Aslan by another name) and end up in the new version of our world. I personally like to believe that she can still find her way to Narnia, after all our world didn't end, several of them were just in a train accident. If however, she can't get into Narnia, if she found Jesus, I would assume the others can walk around the countries to her. But if she believed again I think she's good to get back into Narnia.

[Narborg]

Yes, we are never told.

[Narnian_Blade]

Wasn't there a part in the LB where they talked about a bridge between new england and new narnia. The kids could see their parents waving at them from new england.

[Flamazon]

She would undoubtedly return to Narnia. Not only would her siblings want her there, and she was never a bad person but I believe that she would have found Aslan again. When comparing it to the religious point of view, we know that many people lose faith because they don't want to follow anything blindly but know insteadwhysomething is. Often however, when faith is lost and then found again, it comes back without doubts and is unbreakable. I who have gove through this process can tell you that if Susan were to believe again, nevermore would she falter and doubt. ;) She'll find the way!

[inTHEwardrobe]

I don't think she does. To me, I got the picture that the new Narnia is Aslan's Land, and Aslan's Land is 'The Other Side' - or, heaven. Susan would have to die to go to the new Narnia.

[onlymystory]

In a letter CS Lewis wrote to a child who asked the same question he said that at the end of LB, Susan is still alive in our world and so she still has a chance. Lewis went on to say that it was his belief that Susan did eventually get back to Narnia, she just took a little longer than the others.

[onlymystory]

Lewis also said in a letter to a little boy that Susan was still alive in our world and so still had a chance. He said that he further believed that she would eventually make it to Narnia.

[narnia#1fan]

If the book was extended, what would become of Susan, and how to you think CS Lewis would put it? Originally, he wrote these stories as stories, but he tried to make comparisions to the christianity side of things.

In this book, Susan does not come to Narnia because she pretty much stopped believing it or something. But she was still alive in the "non narnian" world. In time, do you think she would have gone back to believing in narnia after she got over herself? (like so many christians do after they fall away from the faith) I was just thinking that after a while, she would come to her senses and then get to the new narnia that aslan created. This of course is just my imagination, and I am curious how everyone else thinks it would have turned out.

well he wrote the story for his goddaughter lucy but by the time he finish she was too old for fairy tales!!

[narnia#1fan]

so thenn susan doesn't die and everyone does that so confusing why wasn't he on the train to?

[Narnian_Blade]

well he wrote the story for his goddaughter lucy but by the time he finish she was too old for fairy tales!!

Aww, too bad. But at least he wrote a great book and she probably enjoyed it even though she was too old for faerie tales. I guess I had better get writing my stories right now before my goddaughter even exists, lol.

[LionessVoyager]

Yes. In the last battle, Aslan told that all the worlds were connected by His own country. If Susan finally believed again, then she too would be able to go to Aslan's country. She would be able to travel to all of the worlds. Although Narnia is itself a world within a world. She might have to travel a bit before she could find where Narnia and England hooked on to wherever she came to. Did that make sense? Am I right?

[Flamazon]

Yes, that makes sense and frankly it's a relief to all of us who are still rooting for Susan! :)

[Charn_Tim]

Hey everyone, I was just thinking about this the last couple of days and I just had a discussion with some fellow narnia friends after watching the movie again today :) Well, here are my thoughts...

I am convinced that Susan will find her way back to Narnia and here's why:
1) The number one reason is that Aslan says, "Once a King or Queen of Narnia, always a King or Queen." I think this means that she will find her way back and eventually figure out Chrsitianity in the end.
2) Everyone except Susan perished on the train and are now in "Aslan's country" or heaven. Hopefully, through the death of her close family, she will realize the transitory nature of life and realize how meaningless pursuing the things of this world are, and turn to Christ [Aslan] in the end. This gives Susan the chance to repent and turn back to Christianity, which she eventually will in the end because of reason #1 above.
3) It is Peter and Polly in LB who are speaking about her falling away and not being a friend of Narnia anymore. It's not like Aslan himself has come out and said that Susan is no friend of Narnia, its merely Peter and Polly speculating about the condition of her heart. Aslan knows the condition of her heart, and the choices she will make in the future, even if she isn't making the correct ones now.

So there is yet much hope for Susan (and good news for us Susan fans!) to join us in Aslan's country in the end...

[inkspot]

so thenn susan doesn't die and everyone does that so confusing why wasn't he on the train to?
I forget what the book says, but there is some explanation as to why Susan wasn't on the train with her parents or the other kids, anyone remember? I thought it was because she was in America.

I did not realize Lewis had speculated about what might have become of her -- thanks for that insight, onymystory.

[Parthian King]

That is very, very interesting. Can you give us a reference to that letter onlymystory? I would love to read that "speculation" about Susan voiced to a concerned child.

[newworld_56]

i hope susan does get to the new narnia .. otherwise that would stink.. =(

[kevinbailey]

It broke my heart as a child when Susan was not included in the final trip to Narnia. As an adult, I have realized that Lewis was not simply being cruel in writing it the way he did. I think that he left a door open to Susan becoming a modern-day Digory, ala Professor Digory in LWW. Perhaps--as I choose to believe--Susan overcame her grief at the terrible loss of her entire family, and came into possession of the rings, as well as her family's wealth. Perhaps she married, had children, grandchildren, and--by the present day--great-grandchildren. Think of it! These children now have a conduit into the wonderful lands beyond, by means of their great-grandmother's rings! And upon the death of the grand old woman Susan has become, she will join her family in the stable, in the flower of her youth once more, always and forever, "Susan, Queen of Narnia." After all, in LWW, did Aslan not say, "Once a King or Queen of Narnia, always a King or Queen of Narnia"? And when have we known Aslan to lie?

[kevinbailey]

*This is a re-post of a reply I made to a thread I found when running my own Google-search on the fate of Susan.*

It broke my heart as a child when Susan was not included in the final trip to Narnia. As an adult, I have realized that Lewis was not simply being cruel in writing it the way he did. I think that he left a door open to Susan becoming a modern-day Digory, ala Professor Digory in LWW. Perhaps--as I choose to believe--Susan overcame her grief at the terrible loss of her entire family, and came into possession of the rings, as well as her family's wealth. Perhaps she married, had children, grandchildren, and--by the present day--great-grandchildren. Think of it! These children now have a conduit into the wonderful lands beyond, by means of their great-grandmother's rings! And upon the death of the grand old woman Susan has become, she will join her family in the stable, in the flower of her youth once more, always and forever, "Susan, Queen of Narnia." After all, in LWW, did Aslan not say, "Once a King or Queen of Narnia, always a King or Queen of Narnia"? And when have we known Aslan to lie?

[Nema]

There are a couple of things I find fascinating about Susan's story. We are told that she refuses to talk to the others about Narnia, and speaks about it as if it were just a game they played as children. Instead she focusses her
attention on fashion and make up and being 'grown up'.

But if you think about it, is it really at all likely that she believes Narnia was just a game they used to play? She lived for years in Narnia. She already grew up there once and we know she became an exceptional beauty with many suitors. Isn't there probably something a lot deeper going on than simple disbelief?

Peter, Lucy and even Jill's acceptance of Narnia is impulsive. They just take it as what it is and go with it. Edmund and Eustace both come to understand it by learning valuable lessons about themselves from their time there. Susan's different. She never really stops trying to be realistic and think things through sensibly, which doesn't ever get her anywhere in Narnia.

She's more rooted in how 'our' world works. I think it's natural therefore that Susan's path needs to be different to that of the others. I would suspect that while they do their learning and growing in Narnia, Susan needs to make her spiritual journey in our world. I'd like to think that for all it seems that way, Susan's story isn't one of warning or condemnation. She's no worse a person than the others, she's just not so capable of leaps of faith.

I think it's just that she needs to get back to Narnia by making sense of things for herself, not through revelation like the others.

[kevinbailey]

I find myself in total agreement. I believe Susan's journey must be completed in this world as well. However, I feel it has as much to do with the terrible tragedy that befell her, in losing all her family in one fell swoop, as with her well-demonstrated loss of belief in Narnia. Had she perished in the train, I feel she would have met the same Narnian fate as Jill, Eustace, Lucy, and her brothers. I feel that--just as she did in Prince Caspian--she would have felt great remorse at her unbelief, and would have once more been welcomed by the forgiving Lion.

[Rhyanidd]

I have always believed that Susan would get back to Narnia....I could'nt believe she would forever be out of Narnia!! ;) My friends don't like Susan but I always liked her...probably because I know what its like being the oldest daughter...mothers tend to (at least the mothers I know) haver their oldest daughter help with babys...and such......Susan's practality is not that she is'nt fun its just that she is more her mothers right hand then Peter would be...I feel sorry for her...but anyway she has to find her way back in!!! :( has too!! And are you ever to old for Fairy Tales? I know I'm not!!

[Rhyanidd]

Ok sorry that I am posting twice so close together but there was something I had to say...Somebody said on this forum(I didnt see this post till after I had posted my last one)that they didnt think that Lucy, Peter, and Edmund, and everybody else could be completely happy without her...and in this world probably not! But in heaven things are differnt...I can't understand how I or anybody could be happy without close friends and family but somehow (in a way that our simple brains can't understand) we will...but I do think she will find her way back to Narnia or Heaven or one of those paradises!!! :o I think she just has too!!

[onlymystory]

I'll try to find the reference again. I think it was in a collection of letters I found. It may take me awhile but I will post it as soon as I can. And Lewis isn't clear on where exactly Susan is, just that she wasn't on the train. But remember that in LB, Jill and Eustace are the only ones still in school and it sounds like its probably their last year. If Lucy is out of school then Susan could be anywhere. She wouldn't have a reason to be on the train.

[The Tisroc]

I'm actually reading the insert form the older bbc dvd collection (the new one has bonus discs and stuff) and in the "Little Known Narnia Facts" it states:

"Digory Kirke, Polly Plummer, Peter Pevensie, Edmund Pevensie, Lucy Pevensie, Eustace Scrubb, and Jill Pole were all killed in a serious railway accident in 1949"

Is this serious!?
Dear god thats deppresing

and if its not true, which I hope it isnt,
then it can be said that the reason susan is not there is because she isnt actaully dead yet within the real-world context of the plot-line

does anybody else know anything about this?

[Lirimaer_senshi]

The reason the others were on the train in the first place was because they were meeting up with Edmund and Peter who had dug up the magic rings (the same ones used in MN). They wanted to send Jill and Eustace back into narnia because they had a feeling that they were needed. Susan had dismissed their memories of Narnia as their childhood games and wasn't interested in it. Therefore she would not have had any interest in the rings whatsoever.

[yoshi71089]

wow, all these posts are so awesome! when i first read LB, i was very sad for Susan. I just couldn't understand, because i read it when i was 11. But after reading all these posts, it gets my hope for Susan. Wow, Lewis was amazingly good at allegoring to the real-world christianity!

[thelawtman]

how did u find that out?

[onlymystory]

its in the book. Last Battle

[thelawtman]

oh yea i jsut read it and it does talk about that.

[DharmaPatil]

Susan has some task to perform as an adult in our world and that is why she couldn't go on to Narnia along with everyone else. I assume she will make it back into Narnia but it may be her destiny to need to wait until old age to do so. Perhaps, like Digory, it will be Susan's role to serve as a sort of 'mentor' to a new generation of children who will enter Narnia or other magical worlds. Such a role would take place well beyond the period when C.S. Lewis was writing the books and/or the span of his life, and so unless he were to see it as his role to write novels about the future, he necessarily had to leave the question of what ultimately happens to Susan somewhat uncertain. But I think it is safe to assume that she ultimately does make it back into Narnia. Remember, also, that C.S. Lewis says that there comes an age when older adults start to believe in fairy tales again, so I assume when that age comes Susan will believe in Narnia again and make it back. Probably Digory went through a long period of time where he didn't believe--we meet him again in old age when he believes in fairy tales. I assume the same will happen with Susan. C.S. Lewis just couldn't be specific without speculating as to the future of our world and that was never his intent.

[legolas]

Well, if Susan turned back to her faith, wouldn't it be too late for her? I mean in the end times Jesus will return but there's not going to be anymore chances after that. So because there is a new Narnia, she probably cannot get in even if she turns back and then dies.
Well, at least that's how my thinking goes.


But what about the children that were not even alive when narnia came? what would happen to them? shouldn't they have a chance?

[Arachne]

The clue to it all is, I suspect, in Aslan's words to the Pevensie children (I think it's in LWW but don't have a copy so I can't give a page reference): "Once a King or Queen of Narnia, always a King or Queen of Narnia".

[Astral]

I was really angry with C.S. Lewis when I found out he hadn't let Susan into Narnia just for growing up. A lot of people have testified that he was a bit of a misogynist - he didn't like women. That really looked apparent to me in Last Battle, when you find out why she's not there, in Jill's speech. I think that was supposed to apply to all grown women, not just Susan.

I posted this somewhere else, but there's a lot of good fics on this topic at fanfiction.net. One that I especially liked was Belief, by someone whose username I can't remember. I think it was Italian-sounding. o_o Use the search function and contain it to works by C.S. Lewis and you'll find it.

[Charn_Tim]

I was really angry with C.S. Lewis when I found out he hadn't let Susan into Narnia just for growing up. A lot of people have testified that he was a bit of a misogynist - he didn't like women. That really looked apparent to me in Last Battle, when you find out why she's not there, in Jill's speech. I think that was supposed to apply to all grown women, not just Susan.
Aww, no way! Lucy is pretty much the star of the show for the first book, and plays a major role in the others, and he never puts her in a negative light. Also, in MN, it is Digory, not Polly who messes things up, and Polly always does what's right. If you asked me, he splits up the heroism pretty equally among the two sexes. I think he put the stuff in there about Susan to warn kids not to become shallow, materialistic phonies-guys or girls, not because he was a misogynist.

Looking at Lewis personal life, I don't think this idea holds either. You should read A Grief Observed to see how much observing his wife slowly die tore him up inside if you get a chance...

[WolfsBane]

In a letter CS Lewis wrote to a child who asked the same question he said that at the end of LB, Susan is still alive in our world and so she still has a chance. Lewis went on to say that it was his belief that Susan did eventually get back to Narnia, she just took a little longer than the others.

I'd like to think that too. That someday, somehow, someway Susan made it back to Narnia. It's not like people can't get lost, or lose their faith and then get it back.

Arachne also makes a very good point, I think. Aslan did say that, and maybe Susan's behaivor then served some greater purpose...or maybe she was just lost for a bit...the accident I think might have been what brought her back.

But again that's all speculation...but I do think she'd make it back somehow.

[DeplorableWord]

I actually think Susan DOES make it to the "new Narnia", and this is why.

1. As you will probably be able to recall, Susan "turns away" from the truth about Narnia, and the magic, and Aslan and gets wrapped up in the "material things" of this world (or so say the other 3 Pevensies). She is not on the train with the other kids because I think that she was given another chance at being saved.

2. "Once a king or queen in Narnia, always a king or queen in Narnia." Susan was once a queen in Narnia so, unless Aslan was lying which I believe he was not, Susan will return and become the queen of Narnia once again, which is another reason why she was given another chance on the train... so she can return and because Aslan IS NOT a liar.

Hopes this helps!!!!!

[PrinceOfTheWest]

"Once a king or queen in Narnia, always a king or queen in Narnia." Susan was once a queen in Narnia so, unless Aslan was lying which I believe he was not, Susan will return and become the queen of Narnia once again, which is another reason why she was given another chance on the train... so she can return and because Aslan IS NOT a liar.Actually, Aslan doesn't say that - Professor Kirke does, back in England after the children tell him the story (in the book he isn't walking into the room.) And even if He had said it, that wouldn't prevent Susan from choosing her own path. She could be a queen in Narnia who exiles herself by her choices - she'd just be an exiled queen.

[TimmyofOz]

Actually, Aslan doesn't say that - Professor Kirke does, back in England after the children tell him the story (in the book he isn't walking into the room.) And even if He had said it, that wouldn't prevent Susan from choosing her own path. She could be a queen in Narnia who exiles herself by her choices - she'd just be an exiled queen.
I'm suprised by you POW. Aslan does to say "Once a king or queen of Narnia, always a king or queen, Bear it well, Sons of Adam! Bear it well, Daughters of Eve!". It is the last thing Aslan says in LWW. And that is what suprises the children when the Professor quotes Aslan.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Dead right, TimmyOfOz! I stand quite corrected. Aslan did say it, and then Professor Kirke echoed it. My point about Susan's choice still stands, but I need to be more careful in my research.

[TolkienGoddess]

From reading the HHB, I got the idea that only Susan, not Lucy, was being sought after as a bride. I don't know if it was here, or another Narnia forum that I read, but someone said that Susan could not come back to Narnia b/c she had been sexually active. Now, I don't know whether Susan ever gets married or not, but it seemed to me, if Lewis meant this as a biblical parallel, that Susan would not be allowed into "heaven" b/c she was promiscuous, having sex outside of wedlock, or something along these lines. Was Lewis trying to send a message to young girls reading his books? We know that Lewis was Christian, and maybe he was saying that if you are materialistic and lustful, w/out repentance, then you will not be allowed into "heaven"? I may be way off here, but I was always intrigued by the statement I read in the mysterious thread. Any thoughts??

[TolkienGoddess]

Aslan_FootSoldier posted this:

"narnia is not heaven, but the 'new' narnia that exists in LB is. hope this helps!"

How come in PC, Caspian, and others refer to "Old Narnia", if "New Narnia" is not established until the LB?? :confused:

[holyboy]

How come in PC, Caspian, and others refer to "Old Narnia", if "New Narnia" is not established until the LB?? :confused:

You have to remember that Lewis did not plan out every book before he wrote them. He was not expecting a continuation to LWW, and later believed that VDT would be his last book. When Caspian refers to the "Old Narnia" in PC, he is talking about the Golden age when the 4 Pevensie children ruled Narnia. As far as I know PC is in no way refering to "New Narnia" that appears in LB, because CSL had not thought of New Narnia yet.

[elfjad]

I think Susan does eventually go to New Narnia because when Aslan was at the entrance to the New Narnia he chose who would be able to enter and who would not. Susan still has time to 'repent' and I don't think she really doubts Aslan's existence unlike the Dwarves who couldn't be helped in the LB, rather she put it aside while she 'grew up'. I did like the ending in a sense but I thought it was really unfortunate that all of them (except Susan) died due to a train crash. It made me quite sad.

[Puzzle dear]

I know Susan would go to the True Narnia, eventually. I'm glad at least one of the kids survived so that their descendents could hear about it.

[Rhyanidd]

I dont think that Susan was sexually active, I mean she was sought after as a bride but that doesnt mean she slept with anybody!!!

[TimmyofOz]

I have wondered about the parents and Susan. It was a bit rough of Lewis to leave Susan there alone with her whole family smashed up on the railway. If he just put the Pevensie parents there so the kids could be happy to be in the new Narnia for eternity, what about Jill and Eustace's parents? I do like the idea that maybe Susan came into possession of the rings, and that brought back to her how real Narnia was, and she was able to use the rings to join her family ...
I always saw Susan moving in with Eustace's parents and getting the rings also. She is kind of old by now and may be just entering college. But rings only take her to the magic woods though.

[Dora_the_explora]

I don't Know. If you doln't know, I definately don't Know!!!

[PrinceOfTheWest]

I'm actually reading the insert form the older bbc dvd collection (the new one has bonus discs and stuff) and in the "Little Known Narnia Facts" it states:

"Digory Kirke, Polly Plummer, Peter Pevensie, Edmund Pevensie, Lucy Pevensie, Eustace Scrubb, and Jill Pole were all killed in a serious railway accident in 1949"All of that, except the date (which is speculation) is revealed at the end of Last Battle. As far as it being depressing - well they certainly didn't think so, because they all ended up back in Narnia, never to have to leave again! That's an interesting speculation on the part of TimmyOfOz as to what happened to Susan. Personally, I can't see her toying with the Rings at all, even if they did eventually come into her hands - but who knows?

[inkspot]

"The books don't tell us what happened to Susan. She is left alive in this world at the end, having by then turned into a rather silly, conceited young woman. But there is plenty of time for her to mend, and perhaps she will get to Aslan's country in the end — her own way."
--From "CS Lewis' Letters to Children"
Lewis felt Lewis still might come to Aslan's country.

As for the confusion about "new Narnia." The "Old Narnia" in PC was the remnants of the original Narnia the Pevensies found in LWW, hidden away in the land the Telmarines now held. It has nothing to do with the "New Narnia" at the end of TLB, which can be seen as heaven, Narnia perfected, and from which no one ever has to leave ...

[PrinceOfTheWest]

From reading the HHB, I got the idea that only Susan, not Lucy, was being sought after as a bride. I don't know if it was here, or another Narnia forum that I read, but someone said that Susan could not come back to Narnia b/c she had been sexually active.I agree with ReepicheepFan here - there's no indication that Susan was promiscuous, either in Narnia or back in England (though Lewis had no illusions about just what girls who obsessed with "nylons and lipstick and invitations" were capable of). She was sought after because she was so beautiful - a point which was brought out in several books. Lucy was sought after, too ("all princes in those parts desired her to be their queen") - she just wasn't as interested.

Lewis would find it telling that someone would even think that sexual sin would be the "door-slammer" for Susan. In Mere Christianity he points out that though the modern world thinks that Christians believe sexual sin is "the biggie" - i.e. the worst sin - the fact is, it's not. The modern world hears a lot of chastisement regarding sexual sin because it violates those laws so flagrantly, but it's not the worst sin. Pride is, as he makes clear in the chapter The Great Sin. In fact, even if Susan were breaking God's laws regarding chastity, I don't think Lewis would have considered those her greatest offences. Her self-absorption, disregard for the blessings she had received, and obsession with lesser goods would have probably come before that, as well as her (probable) vanity.

If you can, see if you can run down a copy of a short story called The Shoddy Lands by Lewis. It's very interesting.

[lionessofgod]

I really don't understand.... :confused:
Very very confused about that.... :eek:
Ummm......*mind goes blank and drools*

[lionessofgod]

Oh! I've got it now! :D
Maybe it's because of....DESTINY

[Susan's_Shadow]

All through the books, Susan has been my favorite carecter. I can see a lot of myself in her. When I finished The Last Battle, I was so dissipionted. :eek: I thought Susan was a traitor. I am so glad to find out that some people think she still has a chance. :D

P.S. Sorry If I spelled anything wrong.....I hate spelling..

[EveningStar]

First off, let's get to the basics. The old Narnia was like old Earth. The new Narnia was like the New Heavens and Earth mentioned in Revelations. And yes all the lands were connected in the middle. So sayeth C.S. Lewis.

In the old Narnia the kids NEVER got in except when the animals couldn't handle things themselves. They were repairmen who never got to see the washing machine and stove unless it was on the fritz. Period. Susan was not invited back because she did not do good work with a wrench. She was undependable. What's more, she was an adult. So what's the hangup with adults here?

For one thing adults get tied down into complex relationships and commitments. Susan certainly did. What if she married and had a child of her own? Would such a person run to the front and shoot arrows or would they hang back for Dearest Ronald and little Jimmy? The reasoning here is similar to a Catholic Priest who is married to his vocation. The young Pevensies were married to their vocation. The older ones began to smell what we Scoutmasters call "the fumes"....gas fumes and perfumes....

[Narnian1]

In the old Narnia the kids NEVER got in except when the animals couldn't handle things themselves. They were repairmen who never got to see the washing machine and stove unless it was on the fritz. Period. Susan was not invited back because she did not do good work with a wrench. She was undependable. What's more, she was an adult. So what's the hangup with adults here?

For one thing adults get tied down into complex relationships and commitments. Susan certainly did. What if she married and had a child of her own? Would such a person run to the front and shoot arrows or would they hang back for Dearest Ronald and little Jimmy? The reasoning here is similar to a Catholic Priest who is married to his vocation. The young Pevensies were married to their vocation. The older ones began to smell what we Scoutmasters call "the fumes"....gas fumes and perfumes....

And what of VODT?? It wasnt in dire need then. Children came when Aslan call, just as children of the Lord come when He calls.
And what of Peter?? What of Digory and Polly?? They all get there. Susan must wait until Aslan calls her. She will appear in the England that her parents did, thats where her heart was, thats where her parents who knew not of Narnia's hearts were, and thats wear the ended up. The others ended up in Narnia because they went to Narnia in order to know aslan better.

[Basilides]

Silliness and conceit may have gotten the better of Susan as an adult, but I'm confident that Aslan's love is even more powerful than silliness and conceit. New Narnia accepts even such as these, even silly and conceited people like us, if Aslan vouches for us.

Besides, once a king or queen in Narnia, always a king or queen in Narnia.

[Starkindler]

Lewis once wrote in a letter that he had hope for Susan. I don't think we need to assume that she was particularly bad, just that she was too wrapped up in material things, which could easily have been resolved as she matured. Sure, she couldn't go back to Narnia after LB (there wasn't any non-heavenly Narnia to go back to), but she could still get to heaven like everyone else who never went to Narnia at all, and then presumably get to the new Narnia from there (just like the others could get to the heavenly England from the heavenly Narnia).

[Starkindler]

Lewis said he had hope for Susan - he may have seen her as a little like himself at that age (especially considering that he himself lost his mother when he was young, and then lost some friends in WWI when he was about Susan's age). Though her parents died in the accident (which I think was not just for the other kids' pleasure but to show the connection between the heavenly Narnia and the heavenly Earth), I think by then she may have been living on her own, anyway, so I don't think she moved in with the Scrubbs. As for the Rings, I always assumed that Aslan made sure they were irretirevably mixed up in the wreckage - after all, any emergency worker who tried to pick up a yellow one would be sent to the Wood with no way back, and the secret would eventually become common knowledge. I think Susan probably matured past her superficiality in LB (especially considering the tragedy that happened to her) and then lived a relatively normal life after that.

By the way, to the Tisroc, I just want to say that the BBC probably shouldn't have put that comment in its set, because it is depressing when you hear about it that way, but when you find out in LB like Lewis intended, it's actually more of a positive thing.

[SapphireOfSeptember]

I know but Why did she disappear? It's so weird! I mean, her siblings don't even mention her at the end of The Last Battle, if you know what I mean.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

I know but Why did she disappear? It's so weird! I mean, her siblings don't even mention her at the end of The Last Battle, if you know what I mean.Ah, but they do. They don't talk about it a lot, because it clearly distresses them, but their point is that she chose other things in her life - things that ultimately displaced her love for Narnia.

[SapphireOfSeptember]

So did the Pevensie Parents go to Narnia with them? And they all lived in Narnia Happly ever after?

[inkspot]

It was like "new Narnia" or the perfected Narnia, and the parents turned up in the "new England" or perfected England. Lewis' concept about heaven was that the best things of the nations or homes we love would never perish, they would be waiting for us in this perfected state. That's why Susan might still get in, if she returns to faith in Aslan before she crosses over.

[Queen Lucy the Valiant]

What do you think will happen with Susan now as the rest of the Pevensie's have died?????
(only just finished the Last battle ;p)

[xxskandarloverxx]

i hav not read that yet
so they all die;(

[Kitanna]

I guess she'll do what many others do when they go into grieving. She'll grieve for some amount of time (weeks, months, years...) and the hurt will stay with her, because her siblings are gone and not coming back, but eventually she will find she can move on with her life despite the pain of losing those she loved. But that's just what I think.

[xxskandarloverxx]

dose lucy an edmund and peter die?????

[Queen Lucy the Valiant]

Oh, im so sorry i've just ruined the last book for u haven't i??
Im so sorry, but yup :( :( :( :(

[Aravis Kenobi]

C.S. Lewis wrote a child who asked what would happen to Susan, and you can find this in another thread, I'm not quite sure which one, but C.S Lewis said that Susan was still alive in our world, and that she could return to the belief in Aslan, and that if that happened, she would join the others in Aslan's country. :)

[sfreak]

Wahhhhhhh why Susan why

[Danny]

I always thought that Susan still died, only she had "grown-up", or strayed away from "childish" fantasy, and that was the reason why she did not reach Aslan's country. Sort of an allegory of faith.

[Elastigirl]

omg thats horrible that lucy, edmund, and Peter die! :eek: :(

[Ara]

Whoa whoa whoa! They DIE??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Ah CR*********P!!!

[Sharlene]

Everyone dies sooner or later, y'know

[Midnight Rider]

Everyone dies sooner or later, y'know
Huh? In which book?

[Midnight Rider]

If you mmean the last battle, she was still alive and simply didn't believe.

[georgie4621]

they all die! OMG i didn't finish that one yet, thats so sad
:(
i am gonna die too!
i wonder what will happen to susan, i can't believe lucy dies too, she is so young, thats so sad!
:(

[onlymystory]

don't worry hun. its not nearly as sad as it sounds. read the book and I think you'll find you like it a lot better then you'd think.

[Proverbs31]

Please, don't get yourself worked up. The Kids, along with their parents die, they are killed in a train wreck. But when they die they go to heaven in a sense, it's all part of C.S Lewis' extreme allegory. They reached Aslans country, which if you read 'Voyage of the Dawn Treader' you would understand what a great feat this was. It was not nearly as sad as you imagine it to be, it was wonderful. All your lives you serve this all powerful master, in Narnia it was Aslan in our world it's Jesus. Not to say they are one in the same but more like Aslan was a represenation of Jesus, it's quite remarkable and it thrills me to think about it. Don't worry it's all good, and I like to think Susan comes back to the truth and eventually accepts that she was wrong and when she died she finds herself in Aslan's country as well. So don't worry about it, death is not ugly for those who are dying if they know the truth.

[A_childs_imagination]

is it just my opinion or is it really annoying that susan does that. that she stops believing. i dont mean in a religious way because that would make me very hypocritical, but its like going on holiday to france and then years later saying dont be silly france doesnt exist! i know thats an exageration but it doesnt make sensefor her to stop believing in narnia. she was always my favourite character and the last battle kinda ruined that for me. but i like that c s lewis said that she does believe again. that she does go to "aslan's country" it restored my faith in her.

[A_childs_imagination]

Lewis said he had hope for Susan - he may have seen her as a little like himself at that age. i think you are absolutely correct. lewis was not always a christian. as a young adult he lost his faith and was an atheist for several years. even trying to persuade others to be an atheist to. but a few years later he was converted back to christianity although i unfortunately cannot recall how.
i think he made susan stop believing to represent his own loss in faith. i also thinks that this indicates Susan will indeed believe once again. i also like to think that when she dies she will also join the rest of them. in the spirit of her youth in "aslan's country" thats just my opinion so tell me what you think

[Soli_Deo_Gloria]

Thought: "Once a King or Queen in Narnia, always a King or Queen in Narnia" (Someone correct that quote if it is wrong I don't have the books in front of me.)

Thought: This is not the first time Susan has been drawn off by worldly distractions. Remember in The Horse and His Boy she almost marries Rabbadsh..... crud I hate spelling. She falls for the Calormen prince only to return to her senses when she sees the truth of what he was.

Thought: In PC Aslan tells all of the Pevensie children they must know Him by a different name in our world.

Theory: People have an odd way of returning to thier mistakes. It appears to me that Susan has yet again fallen for that which is false. If Susan repeats her previous decisions, the death of her family could cause her to realize what is truly important, which might drive her to find Aslan by His name in this world eventually reuniting her with family

P.S. Since time works differently in Narnia, if Eustace and Jill died only minutes earlier they would have a jump start on the rest. Or Aslan could have "dropped them off" and took the rest with Him to chill until the end of the world. I mean like time really has any constraints on Aslan.

[Eustace Scrubb]

Susan's fate is never expanded on past the children's explanations of her being "no longer a friend of Narnia" and a "jolly sight too keen on being grown up", when they reached Narnia after their deaths. She was symbolic of the unbeliever - she'd turned her back on Aslan and Narnia and chosen to live her own life. And in a way, even though it is through death, she misses out on going to Aslan's country with her brothers and sister and parents.

However, there is some small glimmer of hope for her. C.S. Lewis himself said in a letter to a boy in 1957 that it wasn't necessarily the end of Susan. "...But there is plenty of time for her to mend, and perhaps she will get to Aslan's country in the end - in her own way". I believe she would have eventually, especially after the deaths of her whole family. She would have turned back to Aslan and Narnia in the end, hopefully, and gone to Heaven.

[lions mane]

o.k. my post is ganna be pretty long cause i have a lot to say!
uhm. has their already been a thread on this, i'm not sure but i do remember reading and posting to a thread very simular to this, maby i was just thinking it cause it was quite a while back! and 2nd of all i'm very sorry (even though i didn't start this thread) to all the people who didn't finish the book before the spoilers. sorry, a_childs_imagination where did it ever say that lucy ended up in aslans country, cause i've read the books quite a few times and i don't ever remember coming across that? and to tell u the truth i really agree with eustace scrubb (my fav. character), i think that after she had realised that her whole family had past that she really came back to aslan (jesus) and started to beleive in narnia (heaven) and was forgiven by aslan. so i do beleive that she ended up in aslans country!

sorry to anyone if i've ofended u in anyway!

[Lord Moseley]

yeah well i kinda agree with you
as u can see from the book susan doesnt believe in narnia anymore
she likes to hang out with her friends and do girl stuffs
she believes that narnia is just a make-believe world that she used to play with her brothers and sister.
according to a letter that lewis wrote to a girl, asking if susan will go back to narnia, lewis respond that susan is a self-centered girl, but that doesnt mean that she will not be able to get back to narnia, there are lots of time for her to change, and perhaps someday she will get back to narnia.

source: "beyond the wardrobe, the official guide to narnia"

:D

[Malacandra]

It’s fairly unlikely that Susan would have been going to college, either before the death of her family or after. It’s stated in the books that she was not very good at school work, and higher education was by no means as common in those days as it is now; you usually only went to university if you were in the top bracket intellectually, as opposed to today when it is almost the default option on leaving school.

That said, just holding a School Certificate (the exam qualification they had in those days) would have meant she was educated to a good all-round standard that would put her in much the same position as a fair few first-year undergraduates today, and by what I’ve seen on these boards, even Lucy could have taught the average poster hereabouts plenty about grammar, spelling and so on. :)

The usual thing for a young woman of Susan’s age to have considered would be getting married. Most people did. In her case it would have meant finding a nice young man with an honest family background and a respectable character, with promising career prospects – almost certainly something in an office or bank judging from what I can tell of the Pevensies’ social class – and settling down in her early twenties. In that case she could perfectly well have lived into the 21st century and be a great-grandmother by now.

Of course Susan might have found alternatives. As a beautiful girl who had, apparently, been worming her way into the world of party invitations as soon as she was old enough to pass for twenty-one, she might have found herself a sugar daddy – a rich but much older man to set her up in a nice little flat somewhere with all her needs provided for, in exchange for which he got a young beauty to show off in public and… well, the forum policy requires that if you can’t fill in the blank for yourself, I don’t tell you.

As for her spiritual welfare, it was entirely in her own hands. Aslan may have intended the loss of her whole family to come as the massive kick in the behind that drew her attention to the things that did and didn’t matter in life. I can picture her, all dressed up for a party, receiving the telegram with the bad news, and suddenly everything that she thought was important melting into insignificance as she realized she would give it all up to have her family back for a week, a day, even half an hour.

Or it might have been too much for her to swallow, and she might have decided that if He could let something so terrible happen to her, He could not have loved her as much as He ought to… and she would jolly well pay Him out by not believing in Him.

It was her choice. It’s our choice. It would be well if we chose wisely.

[ElectricJello]

Really? Wow, thats a long post!:D

[Malacandra]

This is shorter. :p

[MyChEmIcAlRoMaNcE_rOcKs!]

man i just finished the book ast night and it was sad.hmmmm is eustace and jill dead too?probably since they r in the real narnia.do u think susan would go and live with eustace's family?

[inkspot]

I think Malacandra's options for Susan are probably about right. As she was no scholar, she probably married -- as she was a great beauty, she might have married very well. And I know some old ladies who were about her age during WW II, and they are grannies now, or great-grands. I like to think ol' Susan sees the movie with her great-grandchildren, realizes it was made about her and her siblings, remembers what it was like to be with Aslan, and finds her way back to his country!

[SailorSaturn13]

I think Malacandra's options for Susan are probably about right. As she was no scholar, she probably married -- as she was a great beauty, she might have married very well. And I know some old ladies who were about her age during WW II, and they are grannies now, or great-grands. I like to think ol' Susan sees the movie with her great-grandchildren, realizes it was made about her and her siblings, remembers what it was like to be with Aslan, and finds her way back to his country!

I think this vision is fairly true. However, I don't think Susan will need to "redeem" herself. Gentleness is, after all, "the most important and precious gift". What Susan lacks in belief in God she more than compensates by her belief in humans. She can become a wonderful wife and loving mother. "Nylons and Lipstick" about which Lucy complains are a helpless but first step towards this - a phase through which a girl must pass in order to grow up. I can imagine her encouraging her childer to be solidary with others and help them. And to uphold the fairy-tales in your heart but not be stuck in them, using them in real life instead. Susan, like Cinderella, is undergoing a transition from one phase of her life to another. Lewis didn't approve of that. But WE should. She is, like Philip Pullman said, "a Cinderella in a story where the Ugly Sisters win." But I am sure she will find her prince, as did Wendy from "Peter Pan", who is also "Not a friend of Neverland anymore". ;) Susan can have a fulfilled and long life HERE, on Earth - and come in Heaven after that. :)

Note: before, Lewis appreciated that. In PC, Aslan says that they must "go closer to their world" - and this Susan does. And that she no longer believes in Narnia isn't a catastrophe - "If someone says Tash and does good, he belongs to me" - said Aslan.

BTW, I think Rowling took her as a model for Lily Evans... ;)

[Soli_Deo_Gloria]

____SS13 I part agree and disagree with you. I agree that Susan need not immediately return to Narnia, perhaps not even return to believing in Narnia, but she does have some growing up to do. When I read TLB (my sencond favorite by the way) I took it "nylons and lipstick" to mean she had begun to value the outward apperance more than inward beauty. As a guy I cannot speak to how girls mature, but I can speak how a guy views that process. It seems to me that some girls hit a stage where appearance is paramount. How they treat others and respect for themselves falls to the wayside and will be sacrificed if they can look appealling. Personally nothing is more childish. To paraphrase my father, maturity is measured by how much you think of others before yourself.
____I would also take issue with your statemen

" What Susan lacks in belief in God she more than compensates by her belief in humans."

No amount of belief in finite, flawed humans and make up for trust in the infinite, perfect, loving God. The best way for her to become a loving wife and mother is to follow the example of Aslan, who thought of Edmund before Himself.
____On your note, in PC I took Aslan to mean the children, who according to the above definition were much less children than some adults I know, must grow closer to Him in our world, not grow closer to our world.
____So I agree that Susan can live a long fulfilled life here, but I disagree that she can continue to ignore Aslan. To have a good life here she must return to the laws Aslan lived out and taught, even though she call Aslan by His name here and call Narnia a fairy tale

Note: If one truely knew the nature of Tash they would have a hard time doing good. If they did say Tash and do good, as soon as they learned the truth of Aslan they would switch sides. Susan knows the truth of Aslan and can no longer call on Tash, this is related to some of Lewis other theological beliefs and that is another thread around here somewhere.

[SailorSaturn13]

No amount of belief in finite, flawed humans can make up for trust in the infinite, perfect, loving God.

The very idea of christianity is to love people, not God.

And yet many horrible thing were done by people believing in a God while mistrusting other people to be good. Inquisition, someone?

wehave very many valiant people, (often fighting on different sides), and many who are just (but their justice differs...) but few people bring the needed understanding and kindness towards others.


I took it "nylons and lipstick" to mean she had begun to value the outward apperance more than inward beauty. It seems to me that some girls hit a stage where appearance is paramount.
How they treat others and respect for themselves falls to the wayside and will be sacrificed if they can look appealling.

This is a not that good, but a nesessary stage. The point is that the OPINION of others becomes important at that point, but the UNDERSTANDING that one should build this opinion by inward beauty (and one's doings) rather than by appearance only comes later.

And yet, we just DON'T know what really happens in Susan. Given her charackteristics before, it's far more likely, that she already IS more (and her parties have some sence), but Lewis (and so his "positive" heroes) just see "nylons and lipstick"
Note: unlike Tolkien, who had three sons and a daughter, Clive Staples Lewis knew very little about children.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

The very idea of christianity is to love people, not God.Where did you get the curious idea that these two are in opposition? The central laws of Christianity, as delivered by its Founder, are, "You shall love the Lord your God will all your heart and all your soul and all your mind and all your strength", and "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

And yet many horrible thing were done by people believing in a God while mistrusting other people to be good. Inquisition, someone?Why, when people say this, do they conveniently omit all the positive things that have been done by Christians? Like eliminating slavery, promoting justice, valuing women and children, supporting families, and the like? Sure, people fail - but if they are held to a high standard, they get up and keep striving to meet the standard. If you're as concerned about justice as you seem to wish you are, then tell the whole story.

[Malacandra]

I think this vision is fairly true. However, I don't think Susan will need to "redeem" herself. Gentleness is, after all, "the most important and precious gift". What Susan lacks in belief in God she more than compensates by her belief in humans. She can become a wonderful wife and loving mother. "Nylons and Lipstick" about which Lucy complains are a helpless but first step towards this - a phase through which a girl must pass in order to grow up.

Except that as Lucy, Jill and Polly all agree from their different perspectives, the trouble with Susan is that she is not passing through that phase at all – rather that she made haste to get to that stage in life as quickly as she could and remain there as long as humanly possible. I might like icing (actually I hate the stuff), but, while there would be nothing wrong with me in enjoying icing in its proper place, it would be very foolish of me to consider icing as the only food worth eating, and neglect all other food in order to put only icing on my plate. I would become very ill and die an early death if I did.

I can imagine her encouraging her childer to be solidary with others and help them. And to uphold the fairy-tales in your heart but not be stuck in them, using them in real life instead.
But she was not upholding the fairytales in her heart – she denied that they had ever been anything but a children’s game!

Susan, like Cinderella, is undergoing a transition from one phase of her life to another.
No. See above. A “transition” implies that she will emerge from it, and on the information given, that’s the one thing Susan is determined not to do.

Lewis didn't approve of that.
Not proven by any argument you have brought. At least, not if she were truly undergoing a transition. That he didn’t approve of the deliberately getting stuck, I’ll not dispute.

But WE should. She is, like Philip Pullman said, "a Cinderella in a story where the Ugly Sisters win." But I am sure she will find her prince, as did Wendy from "Peter Pan", who is also "Not a friend of Neverland anymore". Susan can have a fulfilled and long life HERE, on Earth - and come in Heaven after that.

Oh, Philip Pullman. :rolleyes: A piece by piece dissection of Pullman’s wrong-headed views is beyond the scope of this post. On the little I know of the man, it is not to be wondered at that the one character in the books he should most like would be the one least true to Narnia and Aslan, and by extension Christianity and Jesus. As to Neverland, the case is somewhat different (and whether Wendy can be described as “not a friend of Neverland anymore” is open to debate, too). No-one is suggesting that Narnia is, or should be, a place where you perpetually deny adulthood and adult responsibilities. Indeed, the stories pretty much without exception thrust adult responsibility onto very young shoulders. Returning from Neverland is almost the opposite of returning from Narnia.

But hey – you think Susan can do as she pleases with her life and ignore Aslan all she likes, and still end up with the same reward as her brothers, sister, cousin and friends who all kept the faith? And this in some way strikes you as fairer than the alternative? Cinderella? A very favoured Cinderella who was privileged to meet the handsome prince very early in the story, who never went through anything like the privations of the real Cinderella.

Note: before, Lewis appreciated that. In PC, Aslan says that they must "go closer to their world" - and this Susan does. And that she no longer believes in Narnia isn't a catastrophe - "If someone says Tash and does good, he belongs to me" - said Aslan.

This is dangerous nonsense. For someone who knew only of Tash – as did Emeth – to do good in the name of Tash in the belief that he was high and holy, this represents the closest approach to Aslan that this person can make. For someone who knew Aslan at first hand to deny him and, so far from doing good, to concern herself solely with frippery and frivolity, is an utter tragedy.

[SailorSaturn13]

Just an info. My thoughts follow later...

(in http://dnausers.d-n-a.net/cslewis/news18.html)
WHAT HAPPENED TO SUSAN?

Michel Faber has written a new Narnia story, entitled 'BRAVE AGAIN' explaining what happened to

Susan (see September 'C S Lewis News'). Positive comments from Gracia Fay Ellwood, Marilylle

Soveran, Keith Wilkerson, Rodney Loewen, Kirsten Edwards and Mary Stolzenbach. Shelly Pitman

complains 'It's not C. S. Lewis' and Angela Johnson is worried about the time sequence.

Kathryn Lindskoog comments-'I have in my computer a good little book about how Susan got back to

Narnia. Here is what happened. In 1980 a cloistered Carmelite nun in Flemington, New Jersey,

wrote an eighth chronicle of Narnia, telling what happened to Susan, and called it THE CENTAUR'S

CAVERN. (At least twice, C.S. Lewis encouraged readers to invent new tales of Narnia.) I found

her a Protestant publisher in Canada who wanted to bring it out. The altruistic plan was to make

it extremely clear that this was not by C. S. Lewis, and to donate all profits to the work of

Mother Teresa. I got Sheldon Vanauken to read the manuscript, and he offered to write a blurb.

Everyone involved felt sure that Lewis would have approved. But to her dismay, C. S. Lewis Pte.

turned her down flat. We were all surprised and deeply disappointed.'

David Lenander adds-'A gentleman (I think from New York) contacted me last year. He's written a

new Chronicle about Susan, for which he cannot get permission to publish.'

[PrinceOfTheWest]

For a wonderful story interpreting this question, take a look at this post (http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4554)over in the Professor's Notebook forum. We've had a couple of members take a stab at interpreting this, including the irrepressible Magister Chakal, but this new story is, in my opinion, a masterpiece.

[SailorSaturn13]

If so, I suggest you read "The problem of Susan" (of Neil Gaimann), too.

[Malacandra]

If so, I suggest you read "The problem of Susan" (of Neil Gaimann), too.

Why? :confused:

In all seriousness, I've not yet read it (though I suppose I might; my stomach is pretty strong as well as being well-padded), but what's good about it? All I've been able to pick up from looking around is that it features an elderly Susan who has either miraculously mutated from the not-very-good-at-schoolwork girl mentioned in Dawn Treader, and vain silly creature in Last Battle, into a professor, or who was crassly slandered by the author in the first place and was really professor material all along. Oh, and the sex scene featuring Aslan and the White Witch. :rolleyes: And it all took a while to get published because it had to be given enough plausible deniability that the Lewis estate couldn't ream Gaiman a new one. Meh. Why give it the attention?

[LadyEm]

This could be a repetitive thread, because I remember seeing many posts along this strain - though perhaps they were discussions within topics that had gone off topic.
That said I apologize for any repeats.

But It seems to me as though there are two camps of Lewis Philosophers: critics and friends.
The Critics are full of bad things to say about Lewis while friends seem to reconcile all the facts in a far nicer way.

That said, I was just having a discussion with a friend, who was reading a book called "The Magical Worlds of arnia: A Treasury of Myths, Legends, and Fascinating Facts."

It goes into trying to explain why Susan was kept out of Narnia and was saying, as part not whole of the explanation - that part of the reason was that Susan was being punished for her sex, sexuality and being grown up.

I have heard this theory batted about online, and it has never sat right with me. The correct reason in my understanding with all that I have understood, read and interpreted is that Susan had forgotten about Narnia and her heart had strayed from it and had become occupied with other things. It is not that nylons and lipsticks and loved were bad things - but that they had replaced and eclipsed narnia and Aslan in her heart. I am quite sure that Lucy wore lipstick and Nylons, but it seemed that they became Susan's love.

It also goes on to say that Lewis was quite a racist and a bigot against every type of group, accepting what other people had said and never questioning what others supposed - against jews, muslims, and other religions. It also mentions that he was very bigoted against catholics - which does not sit well with me, as Lewis and Tolkein were such great friends. Regardless of their differences, it seems as though he respected Tolkein and Catholics in general very well, even though he himself could never become a Catholic himself (he had differences that were irreconcilable).

It is not as though Lewis did not have his faults - even he is the first to admit how black and tarnished his soul is. And it isn't as though he didn't have issues - we all have issues. He also is quoted as saying that Lewis himself felt the most connected to Susan out of all the Pevensies.

I have noticed that despite the research that this person apparently did, when quoting the facts it seems that he put a spin of his own interpretation on the quotes available.

I am curious to know the comments from a lot of you on these subjects. A lot of you are very knowledgeable and I would appreciate the discussion.

[SailorSaturn13]

Why? :confused:

In all seriousness, I've not yet read it (though I suppose I might; my stomach is pretty strong as well as being well-padded), but what's good about it? All I've been able to pick up from looking around is that it features an elderly Susan who has either miraculously mutated from the not-very-good-at-schoolwork girl mentioned in Dawn Treader, and vain silly creature in Last Battle, into a professor, or who was crassly slandered by the author in the first place and was really professor material all along. Oh, and the sex scene featuring Aslan and the White Witch. :rolleyes: And it all took a while to get published because it had to be given enough plausible deniability that the Lewis estate couldn't ream Gaiman a new one. Meh. Why give it the attention?
Because this introduces much more detailed view in what happened after LB. And is also more normal. The point is, Susan emancipated and had a good and fruitful life HERE, on Earth. She DID grew up after all. "Nylons and lipstick" passed, like they mostly do, and out came a wonderful woman. She wasn't broken by the death of the others, nor did she tried to prove something - she just lived , and lived full. As for Professorhood, it does really have little to do with school notes, but rather with being oscessed with the subject, and after a story had cost the lives of 3 her siblings, Susan could surely become obscessed with stories. As for Lion-witch sex, it isn't Susan's dream - it is Greta's, and has to do with how unfair God was towards Susan.

[~Grateful * Surrender~]

Ok I must really be missing something what book are you all talking about? Lion having sex of that is just...what is this?

[~Grateful * Surrender~]

As to the gender issue it was not because she was a girl but because from the start (I do not speak of the movie but of the books) Susan was always the logical one and she always had to have a solid explanation fro everything. She was the mother of the children when they went to the country in LWW and she was always considered one of the grownups in England among her parents. She was put in as very pretty and everyone adored her if you do remember in the Voyage of the Dawntredder, Susan was favored to go to America with her parents.

No Lewis was no sexist because if he was why would he have had a girl so favored by so many in his books. And looking at his life he went through so much for the woman that he married it is a wonder that anyone could even be possessed with that inclination to say so.

Back to Susan, she let her vanity, pride and favoritism get in the way of her love for Narnia. She allowed herself to be caught up in the things of the world and soon Narnia faded away behind the scenes of worldly beauty and wonder. Susan let the logic of the world tell her that Narnia was completely impossible and ridicules. However the other woman that went back, not young girl such as Lucy and Jill, was Mrs. Polly. She had believed in Narnia till the end and went back with the rest of them. Lewis simply used Susan as an example of those Christians who let the cares of this world lead them away from the concept of Heaven and in all reality God.

The Chronicles were all filled with allegories; it didn’t stop with LWW it went on to the last. Plus, one more comment on the sexist issue, if Lewis was a sexist, why would he have made Lucy the beloved of Aslan? Why would he have had a girl be the most faith filled and trust in Aslan even when the rest doubted and wanted to go the other way? Why would he have put a girl in charge of signs that would be vital to Narnia?

If Lewis is to be called a sexist, that conclusion can in no way be extracted from the Chronicles.
About the racist tumult I really can’t say. I do not know Lewis and his works quite well enough to raise an argument satisfactory to put that debate to rest. I personally do not think that Lewis was in the mind of segregation of any religion. This statement I base on the Chronicles, something that was said in the Last Battle.

I cannot quote it 100% but the feel of it was when Aslan was talking to Culorman Soldier who had come into the new Narnia through the stable door and the soldier said something about fallowing Tash and Aslan said, “ you sought in earnest the truth. You worshiped Tash but knew that he was not the true one. So I consider every good deed done by you in the name of Tash a deed done for me for you sought the truth.” This really explains a lot in a nutshell. I mean think about it, because of Lewis’s allegorical style almost everything can be traced back to our walk on earth. I believe that he believed (not that I totally agree) that anyone who truly hungered after truth could and would find it in God, and the Lord Jesus, even if they never really found namely Jesus but believed in the one true God and his divine truth that that person was saved.

I have done my best at thoroughly defending my side of the Lewis fight. I love the works of Lewis and I admire him as a writer and hope to be, one day, a smidgen of what he was.

[devils_advocate_for_evil]

I must say I don't know anything about Lewis as a person, but as a writer I believe him to be lacking. His plot is fantastic which allowed for such a great movie, but I picked up the book just the other day and almost fell asleep! His little nuances, like the wand for the witch, give the book the wrong feel. The way he describes, she carries with her a faerie wand, which is not the image he needs. Also, his dialogue is repetitive and lacking in flavor. I can understand that the time period is different, and thus the dialogue was as well, but it would still not be that stilted and formal and repetitive between siblings!! Especially the White Witch's sudden moodswings. They make her seem as pyscho! I was not impressed....

[~Grateful * Surrender~]

I hate to say this because I know that you really like Jadas but she was sort of psycho if you think about it. She was a dictator and all the dictators that I have ever heard of are a little bit on the far edge. She was filled with such hate for everything really that psychotic behavior is almost expected. If she wasn’t that way I would have to wonder.
A for hi writing style, I honestly think as Lewis put it, “What are they teaching children in schools these days.” The reason so many think that Lewis is a boring, dry, and repetitive writer is because we as a generation have been dumbed down to think that the paperbacks we buy at wal*mart are so festinating and good literature. We have forsaken the classics! The Chronicles are classics and they were not set as such for no reason. I must confess I am also a great fan of Jane Austin, and Victor Hugo for they, as was Lewis, were great writers. Yes in our society their work may seem boring and dull and even repetitive but that is only because we are so focused on fast paced action that we overlook the art and talent of these authors.
Personally I could not put the books down. I read them in less than a week and that is definitely a record for me. I grew up loving Lewis and his work and now am fixing on reading them all again so that I can grasp it even better. I am reading Mere Christianity at the moment and I think that Lewis is viewed so distastefully is because he demands, by his writing, a higher level of concentration, attentiveness, and really he requires his readers to actually think about what he is writing instead of laying it all out. His writing is not so trivial that you come away thinking, “oh that was a nice book,” but more what did he really mean by…or what significance is he trying to relate to me by this. I do not mean to pummel your personal beliefs but mine are firm and set and I have a habit of speaking my mind.

[devils_advocate_for_evil]

I have a feeling you are surprised when I say that I love Mark Twain, Jane Austin, Charlotte Bronte, Emily Bronte, and such classic writers. I loved "A Tale of Two Cities" as well as "Pride and Prejudice!" I just found that Lewis' books were lacking. I don't like Jadis as a person, I like Tilda Swinton who did a FANTASTIC job as the white witch. I just found that the dialogue was too boring and stilted. But then again, that is my own opinion, not that of others..

[Malacandra]

Ok I must really be missing something what book are you all talking about? Lion having sex of that is just...what is this?

It's a short story by Neil Gaiman, "The Problem of Susan". I've seen the rumours flying around the internet, but I've not read the story.

Thanks, SailorSaturn13, for a good and helpful reply. Of course, Greta's perspective on God's "unfairness" might possibly be a little flawed...

[pink-cheetah]

do you think that when Susan died, and if she did "grow out of nylons and lipstick", she could always pass from the 'England-within-England" into"Narnia-within-Narnia" like Mr. Tumnus said somethng about all the countries are connected or something from Aslan's country?

[LadyEm]

I don't think that The Forgiven Traitor was saying that any of those books listed are not classics - they very much are. Each author has their different points of view, in which they write from - which is why looking at Lewis' writing tells a lot about him.

In a way, Tolkein would have agreed with you devil's advocate - he always complained that it was way to "hodge podge" for his taste.
Secondarily, the witch was a psycho. It's Lewis' character, he created Jadis. If he writes her as being psycho, then she is indeed psycho. There would be no Jadis without Lewis, therefore, Jadis is a figment of Lewis' imagination, whom we enjoy but must accept as who she is.

Backtowards the topic at hand - Forgiven Traitor - I completely agree. I myself started off reading the books, and then saw the BBC movies and finally the brand new one - the books really are the final word, so speaking from the books is an excellent place to start.

You see, those are the answers that I draw from the Chronicles as well, in not so much words or evidence. It has been many years since I've read them (due to loads of homework and reading in college, etc).
It really amazes me at the conclusion of some of the critics because I don't follow their logic based upon research that has been twisted into their own interpretation.

You did an excellent of job of defending Lewis' works. I appreciate it - and Lewis has been one of the greatest inspirations in my life - he inspired me to write novels, he also inspired me in my faith in numerous ways. I can honestly say that I too, hope to become even a fraction of the quality of the man Lewis was - well, as a woman of course.

As for Susan - the one thing I do partly agree with in the book she was reading - was that when her family and friends - all those closest to her died in that train accident, that it was bound to affect her. It is very likely that the grief of such a thing would be very crippling, and that it would cause some sort of turn around in her life.

I think though, pondering it that Lewis was rather ingenious to pick Susan to stay behind, and yet leave her story open ended. The debate and the deep thought provoking that he has caused in people's heart's and mind's is really quite amazing.

When I first read The Last Battle, I cried and cried for Susan. I couldn't help it, but I also didn't realize the full impact of what Lewis was trying to do. Also, in no way did Lewis say that she could not have another chance - after all if she didn't have another chance, that would completely defeat the theme of grace throughout the books, following Edmund and his friendship with the White Witch and Aslan's ultimate sacrifice.

I think that if Lewis wanted to be sexist, he would not have had the girls come on an adventure in the first place - or have Lucy lead it by any means at all. And no, Lucy would not have been the most beloved of Aslan, as you've pointed out. Nor would Lu have engaged in battles as a Queen, or led any for that matter. Perhaps we should just edit Lu and Su completely out of the adventure and leave them behind in Narnia and have the High King Pete meet up with Tumnus?

Anyways, Lewis also has several Calormene's being of importance in Narnia - for example Aravis, the friend of Shasta's was, I believe a Calormene princess for all intensive purposes. And she became a Queen of Archenland after marrying Shasta(prince corin) who turned out to be the heir to the throne of Archenland.

[Kermit With Sword]

do you think that when Susan died, and if she did "grow out of nylons and lipstick", she could always pass from the 'England-within-England" into"Narnia-within-Narnia" like Mr. Tumnus said somethng about all the countries are connected or something from Aslan's country?
she might...
she'd most likely be givin' a chance from aslan.

[QA48]

I have a feeling you are surprised when I say that I love Mark Twain, Jane Austin, Charlotte Bronte, Emily Bronte, and such classic writers. I loved "A Tale of Two Cities" as well as "Pride and Prejudice!" I just found that Lewis' books were lacking. I don't like Jadis as a person, I like Tilda Swinton who did a FANTASTIC job as the white witch. I just found that the dialogue was too boring and stilted. But then again, that is my own opinion, not that of others..

Don't forget that CoN were written for children. Have you tried reading "The Screwtape Letters" "Mere Christianity" or "The Great Divorce"? ;)

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Don't forget Till We Have Faces!

[LadyEm]

And his other series' for Adults including Perelandra, This Hideous Stregnth, etc.

[devils_advocate_for_evil]

Also, I used the wrong word the witch, I didn't mean pyscho I meant pyschofrenic....dual-personality, I can't spell it though!

[Christine Marie]

It goes into trying to explain why Susan was kept out of Narnia and was saying, as part not whole of the explanation - that part of the reason was that Susan was being punished for her sex, sexuality and being grown up.

I have heard this theory batted about online, and it has never sat right with me. The correct reason in my understanding with all that I have understood, read and interpreted is that Susan had forgotten about Narnia and her heart had strayed from it and had become occupied with other things. It is not that nylons and lipsticks and loved were bad things - but that they had replaced and eclipsed narnia and Aslan in her heart. I am quite sure that Lucy wore lipstick and Nylons, but it seemed that they became Susan's love.
Exactly. It wasn't "the lipstick, nylons and invitations" that kept her from Narnia, it was her lack of faith that immersed her in materialistic things over spiritual. "The lipstick, nylons and invitations" was only a symbol of this.
You can still be a Christian and enjoy going to parties and wearing make-up :D

[Christine Marie]

I must say I don't know anything about Lewis as a person, but as a writer I believe him to be lacking. His plot is fantastic which allowed for such a great movie, but I picked up the book just the other day and almost fell asleep! His little nuances, like the wand for the witch, give the book the wrong feel. The way he describes, she carries with her a faerie wand, which is not the image he needs. Also, his dialogue is repetitive and lacking in flavor. I can understand that the time period is different, and thus the dialogue was as well, but it would still not be that stilted and formal and repetitive between siblings!! Especially the White Witch's sudden moodswings. They make her seem as pyscho! I was not impressed....
Have you only read "The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe"? If so, I would recommend reading the whole series because I didn't enjoy "The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe" that much, either, but *love* the other books.

And Mr. Lewis was certainly not lacking as a writer, he has written many books (outside of Narnia) that are some of the most prolific of all time. "The Abolition of Man" is considered one of the 10 ten greatest non-fiction works of all time.

And although, "The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe" isn't that great (in both our opinions ;)) it is not the b and end all of the Narnia series, so please, read them all and you will see what I mean :D

[Wallis]

Regarding Susan, from the very beginning, Susan was the first to want to "go back." Narnia was not a part of her "world." Although certainly frightening but challenging, Narnia was just the "thing" for the boys to experience. And Lucy, being a bit tomboyish but full of love and compassion, Narnia was just the "place" for her.

Again, for Susan, Narnia just did not fit into her view of how "things" ought to be. And, some people are just not cut out or comfortable with an existence that is "outside the accepted box of reality." This does not mean that Susan rejected Narnia or Aslan. Narnia is/was not heaven. Aslan, to Susan, was not the Christ. In her rejection of Narnia and Aslan was limited to a choice of ignoring or denying a sphere of existence that belief in the same bordered on mental instability in the eyes of other people. She walled off or boxed up her Narnia adventures as a means of maintaining her sanity in the "real world."

Imagine being Susan's husband, and the morning after you're married, Susan comes up to you and starts telling you about Narnia. Uh-oh! Time for the men in little white coats!

[Wallis]

Addendum.

Rejection of Narnia's existence or the experiences Susan had in Narnia does NOT equal lack of faith in the Christ.

At no point did Lewis give the impression that Susan rejected the Christ, only the concept and reality of Narnia.

I feel that Susan actually represents the majority of human beings in the world. Very few people are willing to open up and accept the possibility of such outlandish concepts and "realities" as Narnia. Most people, even if exposed to or touched by the "unreal," are quick to deny that anything happened. Anything that does not fit comfortably within that individual box each of us builds to define reality or "our life" or the whole universe (for that matter) is immediately rejected through a psychological knee-jerk, survival mechanism.

[devils_advocate_for_evil]

well...i did only read "The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe" but the movie impressed me much more than the book. The plot was fantastic! Just the writing...

[Christine Marie]

well...i did only read "The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe" but the movie impressed me much more than the book. The plot was fantastic! Just the writing...
I agree with you on that, the movie was more grasping and lively then the book. But trust me on the other Narnia books, they are worth the read :D

[LadyEm]

Addendum.

Rejection of Narnia's existence or the experiences Susan had in Narnia does NOT equal lack of faith in the Christ.

At no point did Lewis give the impression that Susan rejected the Christ, only the concept and reality of Narnia.

I feel that Susan actually represents the majority of human beings in the world. Very few people are willing to open up and accept the possibility of such outlandish concepts and "realities" as Narnia. Most people, even if exposed to or touched by the "unreal," are quick to deny that anything happened. Anything that does not fit comfortably within that individual box each of us builds to define reality or "our life" or the whole universe (for that matter) is immediately rejected through a psychological knee-jerk, survival mechanism.


I am not so sure I agree entirely with this. Susan overcame her tenativeness in accepting that Narnia was real, the first time she entered Narnia and met Aslan in LWW. Each of the Pevensie's went through a change of heart and mind - Susan, Peter, Edmund and Lucy. None were exempt.

She lived there for over a decade as a Queen of Narnia and was always considered a champion of the Golden Age of Narnia. She was a lover of Aslan, and she was truly as devoted as any one of her siblings to her country. Additionally, she returned to Narnia in Prince Caspian and there does not seem to be any sort of disdain or disbelief at being transported to Narnia at that point.

Imagine if you will, having grown up - she and Pete were in their late twenties when they left Narnia - and coming back through the wardrobe door and suddenly be very much a child in your old world. Is it any wonder that Su became obsessed with being grown up? She was searching for Narnia in her world, albeit the wrong way.

Then there is the point that after Prince Caspian, that Aslan tells her that she cannot enter Narnia anymore because she is too old.
Susan's character seems to be that she has difficulty accepting things at first, but she accepts it wholeheartedly when she does. She loved Narnia! How could she not?

But then she feels banished from Narnia, never to return. She's searching to find a place in her world and in order to find that place, things of menial importance take precidence. She's searching for herself in Narnia and she can't find it in England.

I don't think that her heart is fully against Narnia, she has forgotten so she can cope with the deep hurt. Perhaps she is angry with Aslan for not letting her return and she's hurt.
Regardless, her love for Narnia and Aslan has been replaced by her love for materelistic things and people's approval, what they think of her, their esteem for her.

Susan would have rejected Aslan when she rejected Narnia all in one lump sum. Aslan was apart of Narnia. She said it was "all" make believe. That means she included Aslan into the bundle.
Let me pose this question then - why else would a girl who loved Narnia and Aslan with her whole heart say such a thing and act a certain way if there hadn't been something traumatic to pierce her heart?

She truly was apart of Narnia - she fell, she made mistakes and Lewis was showing that if we turn our back on our faith and on these things that were true, that we are in danger of losing eternal life. But grace continually abounds, and that Susan has her second chance - just like Ed did.

I agree very much that she walled or boxed off her memories of Narnia in order to keep sane in our world. It was her way of dealing with the package that came from her entire experience - I can't imagine trying to fit back into living in England, over ten years your junior, after a day earlier being a grown up Queen of a country? You'd be a 28 year old walking around in a 14 year old body!

I don't think she did this however because she didn't believe: I think she did it so she could cope with the hurt and the issues that arose in trying to live her day today life in England.

Edited to add: If we are basing her actions on her personality it is also necessary to note that Susan was considered "Queen Susan the Gentle." This denotes to me that Su was indeed gentle of heart, which can also be translated into "sensitive of heart." That means that she was of sweet temperment, and a soft heart - soft hearts are bruised easily. Could it not be her rationalization that was her downfall but her soft heart? That her greatest asset in Narnia would be her greatest downfall in our world?

[~Grateful * Surrender~]

Regarding Susan, from the very beginning, Susan was the first to want to "go back." Narnia was not a part of her "world." Although certainly frightening but challenging, Narnia was just the "thing" for the boys to experience. And Lucy, being a bit tomboyish but full of love and compassion, Narnia was just the "place" for her.

Again, for Susan, Narnia just did not fit into her view of how "things" ought to be. And, some people are just not cut out or comfortable with an existence that is "outside the accepted box of reality." This does not mean that Susan rejected Narnia or Aslan. Narnia is/was not heaven. Aslan, to Susan, was not the Christ. In her rejection of Narnia and Aslan was limited to a choice of ignoring or denying a sphere of existence that belief in the same bordered on mental instability in the eyes of other people. She walled off or boxed up her Narnia adventures as a means of maintaining her sanity in the "real world."

Imagine being Susan's husband, and the morning after you're married, Susan comes up to you and starts telling you about Narnia. Uh-oh! Time for the men in little white coats!

Old Narnia was not heaven, the new Narnia was. Aslan represented Christ in every aspect of things and even if Su did reject the concept of Narnia just to cope it still means that she rejected the divinity of Aslan and in other words Christ.
As for the argument that Willis posed for Su only trying to cope in the real world thus becoming obsessed with grown up things why didn’t Peter as well as the rest of them do the same. They all would have gone through similar trauma of being grown one moment and being young the next so Su is no exception. One more point that I would like to touch on is that when Aslan said that Su and Peter could not go back Peter never denied Narnia or Aslan as did his sister. I think that Lewis wanted to paint a clear picture of what happened so those who lose faith and I don’t know why he chose Susan to do it but he did.
Narnia was a depiction of the Supernatural and we are faced with that decision as well and many will say that we are crazy that we believe in such outlandish things. Susan was afraid of what others would think of her for believing in the supernatural and so she aloud herself to desert it and finally convince herself that it was all a dream.

[Wallis]

I will not disagree with you, Forgiven Traitor. Please accept my comments as a view of how I "see" a lot of people.

To answer your question about Peter, I think that Peter and the others of his company represent a minority of people who can accept things beyond the physical (possibly spiritual) dimensions of what we all tend to call "the real world."

[inkspot]

An interesting discussion of whether Lewis' writing reflected a sexist point of view is found in the Father Christmas thread:
http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3301&highlight=father+christmas

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Before we get too heavily into psychoanalyzing Susan (from a distance), it might be helpful to remember that she's a fictional character, and that there's no "real" Susan to feel sorry for because there's no real Susan.

That being said, the character of Susan is not without meaning, because Lewis imbued all his major characters with meaning, and especially since 1) this was his last Narnia book, and 2) Susan's absence was such a discordant note in the general joy of the New Narnia. Lewis was using it to make an instructive point, and when a genius like Lewis does that, it's a good idea to attend to the instruction. Here's the actual dialogue from The Last Battle:
"My sister Susan," answered Peter shortly and gravely, "is no longer a friend of Narnia."

"Yes," said Eustace, "and whenever you've tried to get her to come and talk about Narnia or do anything about Narnia, she says 'What wonderful memories you have! Fancy your still thinking about all those funny games we used to play when we were children!'"

"Oh, Susan!" said Jill. "She's interested in nothing nowadays except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."

"Grown-up, indeed," said the Lady Polly. "I wish she would grow up. She wasted all her school time wanting to be the age she is now, and she'll waste the rest of her life trying to stay that age. Her whole idea is to race on to the silliest time of one's life as quick as she can and then stop there as long as she can."

"Well, let's don't talk about that now," said Peter...Now, before anyone drags in the old canard about Lewis being anti-women, attend to this quote from Magician's Nephew:
[Uncle Andrew] put on a very high, shiny, stiff collar...He put on a white waistcoat with a pattern on it and arranged his gold watch chain across the front...He put on his best frock-coat...He got out his best tall hat...he took [a flower] and put it in his button-hole..

Children have one kind of silliness, as you know, and grown-ups have another kind. At this moment Uncle Andrew was beginning to be silly in a grown-up way. Now that the Witch was no longer in the same room with him he was quickly forgetting how she had frightened him and thinking more and more of her wondrful beauty...

"Andrew, my boy," he said to himself as he looked in the glass, "you're a devilishly well-preserved fellow for your age. A distinguised looking man, sir."

You see, the foolish old man was actually beginning to imagine the Witch would fall in love with him. The two drinks probably had something to do with it; and so had his best clothes. But he was, in any case, as vain as a peacock; that was why he had become a Magician.
There are many other examples of this in Lewis' writing, particularly in The Great Divorce (chapters 5 and 9 in particular), the fussy self-importance of Curry in That Hideous Strength, and in the short story The Shoddy Lands, found in the collection The Dark Tower. The pivotal point is that we humans have a tendency to let the trivial things of life occlude our view of the greater things. Vanity is one example of this, as both Uncle Andrew and Susan demonstrate. Lewis, speaking through Lady Polly, makes clear his opinion of this folly: "I wish she would grow up!" He sees these "adult mannerisms" for what they are: shows and posturing. To Lewis, being "grown up" meant much more than clothes and cigars (or nylons): it meant being a person of your word, having courage and fortitude, and keeping the important things clearly in sight. Susan's tragedy wasn't that she traded in Narnia, but what she traded it in for. Imagine how different the dialog would have been if Susan had chosen a more mature path; say, honorable marriage and motherhood, or charitable work, or even just being a working woman who looked after her duties to parents and others. The tragedy of Susan isn't that she didn't make it into the New Narnia (Lewis deliberately left that door open), or that she lost her parents and siblings, but that she traded her Queenship for a mess of pottage.

To me, speculating that Susan was somehow "hurt" that she wasn't allowed to return to Narnia, and out of this hurt rose her rejection of Narnia (thus, conveniently, casting some of the blame on that Big, Bad Aslan) is simply nonsense. Susan was already pulling away from Narnia even in Prince Caspian. What did Aslan say to her when they finally met at the base of Aslan's How? "You have listened to your fears, child." Susan was already giving in to fear, and what little we know of her later life indicates that she followed through on that path. Women who "race on to the silliest time of one's life as quick as she can and then stop there as long as she can" are women who fear (I know a few): they fear the creeping advance of the years, the loss of the bloom of youth (so worshipped by this culture), the decline in attention. Men suffer from this, too, it just manifests somewhat differently ("Mid-life crisis"?) Unlike Lady Polly, who gracefully welcomed the gift of age and maturity, Susan (from what we know) fled from it by setting up a false sanctuary (attractive young-ladyhood) and cowering in there, denying both her childhood and her approaching age.

Susan may have represented the majority of humans in this world, but that's Lewis' point. We all have a tendency to trade in the beauty of true, deep reality for the trite and worthless. For another example of this, look at the introspection of Mark Studdock at the end of That Hideous Strength. Trapped by his enemies and facing (he thinks) death, he realizes that all his life he's traded what he really wanted for what he thought would impress others:He saw himself making believe that he enjoyed those Sunday afternoons with the athletic heroes of Grip while all the time (as he now saw) he was almost homesick for one of the old walks with Pearson - Pearson who he had taken such pains to leave behind. He saw himself as a teen laboriously reading rubbishy grown-up novels and drinking beer when what he really enjoyed was John Buchan and stone ginger. The hours that he had spent learning the very slang of each new circle that attracted him...When had he ever done what he wanted?
If we're going to learn a lesson from Lewis through the character of Susan, let's remember to keep our eyes on the eternal, the significant, the holy, the "deep", and not be distracted by tritisms of the world, whatever form they come in.

[EveningStar]

Chronicles of Narnia was all about maturity. A boy that became a man when he faced Maugrim in mortal combat, then led an army against the White Witch. Rilian facing a midlife crisis before he was hardly old enough to shave, having to go rule rather than explore Bism. Let's be quite honest about CoN, Lewis was playing off the great dichotomy, one who enters the Kingdom of God as a child (innocence) and yet one who becomes mature in the faith and puts away childish things (responsibilty).

Lewis was teaching his readers to be CHILDLIKE without being CHILDISH. And yes, in the ways it counts, I hope I never "grow up." I never want to be too old to play word games or dream of castles and dragons. On the other hand when I have to make hard decisions on behalf of the people I love, I want to be wiser than Moses, steelier than David and more perceptive than Isaiah.

Christ turned the world upside down when he said "blessed are the poor". He did so again as Aslan when he basically said "mature are the children".

[pink-cheetah]

i hope so!

[Malacandra]

I see no reason to fear that she couldn't - after all, the Friends see the Pevensie parents way off in the "real" (i.e. heavenly) England, and it's only a matter of distance - which to them is no real bar as they now have all eternity in which to wander around Narnia-as-it-should-have-been, England-as-it-should-have-been, and every other world God ever created - probably including Charn-as-it-should-have-been too, since even that world was hardly likely to have been horrible from its beginning. It's all a question of whether Susan would have let Aslan back into her heart

[infomage]

I just finished TLB and the entire Susan situation is just not sitting right with me. I think everyone is over analyzing Susan's fate and the change in her character. I would be right there with you if it weren't for Lewis's essay "On Three Ways of Writing for Children."

Part of this essay is a defense of children's literature and fantasy writing.

"I am almost inclined to set it up as a cannon that a children's story which is enjoyed only by children is a bad children's story. The good ones last. A waltz which you can like only when you are waltzing is a bad waltz.
This cannon seems to me most obviously true of that particular type of children's story which is dearest to my own taste, the fantasy or fairy tale. Now the modern critical world uses "adult" as a term of approval. It is hostile to what it calls "nostalgia" and contemptuous of what it calls "Peter Pantheism." Hence a man who admits that dwarfs and giants and talking beasts and witches are still dear to him in his fifty-third year is now less likely to be praised for his perennial youth then scorned and pitied for arrested development. If I spend some little time defending myself against these charges, this is not so much because it matters greatly whether I am scorned and pitied as because the difference is germane to my whole view of the fairy tale and even of literature in general. My defense consists of three propositions."

It is in his first proposition that bears the crux of the tie in to Susan and her dismissal from the story line in The Last Battle.

"Critics who treat adult as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about growing up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development."

I don't disagree with his thesis. However, it would appear that Lewis in the very climax of his masterpiece choose to destroy the integrity of a core character, to prove an academic point.

Considering this, if Lewis conceived this plot twist with the intent of illustrating this behavior in her character he irrevocably damaged the series.

Yes, I concede that Susan could act out to deny childish whimsy. However, this betrayal is far deeper then that. Susan is completely incapable of denying her love of her family and their relationships. Think of the impact that this should have had of Lucy (who had previously been devastated by a very similar betrayal), and on Edmund (Whose learning experience should have also taught her a lesson). Lastly; Aslan, after her experiences could Susan deny Aslan and her love for him?

Honestly, I wish I had never read the essay. True even without it, this aberration would have gnawed at my gut but at least I would have been able to enjoy the speculation. I’m crushed.

[inkspot]

What makes you think the "arrested development" Susan experienced in her early adulthood was permanent? If this is what you think -- I cannot quite make out why this essay caused you to despair for Susan?

Her character, throughout the series, is the one most likely to want to turn back or to wish she had never begun the adventure at all, so in keeping with this, she is eventually the one who does turn back. But in every other instance where her strength to go on failed, her brothers and sisters buoyed her up, and she continued on. Perhaps losing them so tragically will make her "grow up" in the true sense, rather than the silly way Lewis describes in the essay, of being overly concerned for "adult" things.

Have you ever noticed how, when someone loses a dear friend or family member in an untimely fashion, they are forced to reflect on spiritual realities rather than the trivia which mostly consumes our lives? What difference does the ringing alarm clock make, or the yakking TV, or the right shade of lipstick, when your parents and/or siblings have been torn away from you through death? At those moments, people are likely to reflect on what's real and what's eternal.

Although Susan's maturity was arrested at a silly stage and she began to value "adult" things just for the sake of being grown-up, in her moment of loss, there's a good chance she would come to her senses and turn back to her foundational reality, which is Aslan/Christ.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Her character, throughout the series, is the one most likely to want to turn back or to wish she had never begun the adventure at all, so in keeping with this, she is eventually the one who does turn back. But in every other instance where her strength to go on failed, her brothers and sisters buoyed her up, and she continued on. Perhaps losing them so tragically will make her "grow up" in the true sense, rather than the silly way Lewis describes in the essay, of being overly concerned for "adult" things.That's a very good observation, Ink - I'd always known there was something about Susan's temprament which I couldn't quite put my finger on, and you've articulated it well (the fasting must be working, eh?)

You know, we seem to have a couple of threads going on this topic: here's (http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4610) another one.

[inkspot]

I have merged the two threads about Susan, I hope it works out okay. Thanks for looking up the older Thread, PoTW, so I could easily blend them.

[SailorSaturn13]

if Lewis was a sexist, why would he have made Lucy the beloved of Aslan? Why would he have had a girl be the most faith filled and trust in Aslan even when

Because he was ADULT sexist. In "Horse and his Boy" he states "Lucy is as good as a boy". That means: girls are equal to boys, but women are infer4ior to men. Remember "My Fair Lady"? Like Higgins, Lewis thought "Why can't a woman be more like a man?" Young siblings remain close, but Peter and Susan separated: he became the true High King, she got nothing.

from the start (I do not speak of the movie but of the books) Susan was always the logical one and she always had to have a solid explanation fro everything.

Yes, and for Lewis it was bad. He liked blind belief more. The Example with gnome s from LB is also wrong: had Susan been there , she would see the truth.

If we are basing her actions on her personality it is also necessary to note that Susan was considered "Queen Susan the Gentle." This denotes to me that Su was indeed gentle of heart, which can also be translated into "sensitive of heart." That means that she was of sweet temperment, and a soft heart - soft hearts are bruised easily. Could it not be her rationalization that was her downfall but her soft heart? That her greatest asset in Narnia would be her greatest downfall in our world?

Exacter: Her greatest strength, Gentleness, binds her to Earth more than to Narnia (even there she was more atttracted to people). Therefore her place is on Earth, not Narnia.

[SailorSaturn13]

Again, for Susan, Narnia just did not fit into her view of how "things" ought to be. And, some people are just not cut out or comfortable with an existence

that is "outside the accepted box of reality." This does not mean that Susan rejected Narnia or Aslan. Narnia is/was not heaven. Aslan, to Susan, was not the

Christ. In her rejection of Narnia and Aslan was limited to a choice of ignoring or denying a sphere of existence that belief in the same bordered on mental

instability in the eyes of other people. She walled off or boxed up her Narnia adventures as a means of maintaining her sanity in the "real world."
Imagine being Susan's husband, and the morning after you're married, Susan comes up to you and starts telling you about Narnia. Uh-oh! Time for the men in

little white coats!

And logically, why believe in Narnia if you cannot help anyway?



but it is not as though she was living a blameless life of goodness and love at the same time as denying Aslan.

Except based on her character, it is so.




He(Lewis) sees these "adult mannerisms" for what they are: shows and posturing.
Susan's tragedy wasn't that she traded in Narnia, but what she traded it in for. Imagine how different the dialog would have been if Susan had chosen a more

mature path; say, honorable marriage and motherhood, or charitable work, or even just being a working woman who looked after her duties to parents and others
Except the way to this "mature path" goes through "lipstic phase". Lewis didn't see further - normally the wish to impress makes way to the wish to REALLY help... especially if the character is as empathic as Susan.


Considering this, if Lewis conceived this plot twist with the intent of illustrating this behavior in her character he irrevocably damaged the series.
;)

Exact.In the end, It wasn't Susan who betrayed Narnia. It was Lewis himself, who couldn't uphold his awe and inspiration about Narnia. He allowed the IDEOLOGIST to win over HUMANIST and AUTHOR, Death over Life, Devotion over human passions, and dogma over humanity.

[Malacandra]

Because he was ADULT sexist. In "Horse and his Boy" he states "Lucy is as good as a boy". That means: girls are equal to boys, but women are infer4ior to men. Remember "My Fair Lady"? Like Higgins, Lewis thought "Why can't a woman be more like a man?" Young siblings remain close, but Peter and Susan separated: he became the true High King, she got nothing.

Concerning the reference to Lucy, the context is that of a hand-to-hand fight with mediæval weapons, in which you wouldn't expect a woman to be the equal of a man; they're not as strong and they don't come with the same hard-wired aggression. So it was high praise indeed to describe Lucy in that context as "as good as a man, or at any rate as good as a boy" - because she had the necessary courage and aggression, and was lacking only the physical stature.


Yes, and for Lewis it was bad. He liked blind belief more. The Example with gnome s from LB is also wrong: had Susan been there , she would see the truth.

On your say-so, but where's your case? The problem with the dwarfs was blind unbelief; confronted with Paradise, they retreated into self-delusion. Since Susan is reported as denying that Narnia ever existed - not with reasoned argument, but merely with mocking laughter - how can you possibly say she would have seen any more clearly than the dwarfs?

Exacter: Her greatest strength, Gentleness, binds her to Earth more than to Narnia (even there she was more atttracted to people). Therefore her place is on Earth, not Narnia.

I haven't a clue what your reasoning is here. Please clarify.

Except the way to this "mature path" goes through "lipstic phase". Lewis didn't see further - normally the wish to impress makes way to the wish to REALLY help... especially if the character is as empathic as Susan.

Except, tedious as it is to keep reiterating this, Susan was making no attempt to go through the phase. She had fixed on it prematurely as something to achieve as early as possible - to the neglect of her schoolwork - and she was intent on staying there as long as she could.

And logically, why believe in Narnia if you cannot help anyway?It's hardly a test of belief though is it, when she had actually been there for many years and had a multitude of real experiences? The trouble with Susan is that she chooses to pretend to herself that it all never happened, despite her own experiences, and despite the testimony of the other Friends. You might as well ask how I manage to believe in my own foot.

[inkspot]

I cannot allow that Lewis betrayed Narnia by leaving Susan out of TLB. If anything, he was realistic in the choice: a doubtful and hesitant person may indeed be the most likely of the band to turn her back.

Susan was the doubtful one to begin with: at Tumnus' wrecked cave in LWW, she suggested going back home as it turned out this place wasn't much fun and might be dangerous. At the end of LWW when the White Stag disappeared into the woods, adult Susan suggested returning to Cair Paravel and following no further. In PC when Aslan is invisible for a time, she is the last one to see him, despite the fact she really believes Lucy has been seeing him all along, because she didn't want to get up in the middle of the night and follow him or admit her sister had been right.

With such a record built up for her in the stories, it makes all the sense in the world for her to finally, in our world, forget Narnia. It is unrealistic to say Lewis allowed ideology to triumph over his good sense as an author when he has foreshadowed Susan's end in her every appearance in the books -- if he had not made use of this foreshadowing somehow, we would be left to wonder why he bothered with it all, in a literary sense.

[AslansChild]

I just finished "The Last Battle" and it hit me like a ton of bricks. I can't believe it. I'm not sad except for that Susan isn't with them. Anyone thing Mr. Lewis might have been thinking of another book with Susan in it? Sad that the story is not continued.

[~Grateful * Surrender~]

Inkspot, I couldn't agree with you more. I like Susan but she did not alow herself te belive and have faith as the others did, and that is why Lewis wrote as he did.

[Ithilien]

I think the cause for her to stop believing in Narnia is her constant need to be "realistic" and rational. Sometimes, its hard to believe in something when all the facts oppose it. I think that is where Edmund and Susan differed. He has faith while she doesn't. Like that time in PC when Lucy said she saw Aslan, Edmund, who didn't see him, had faith in his sister. Susan tried to be rational so didn't follow Lucy. I think that is how she lost her faith in Narnia.