Do miracles happen? Can they happen to you?

[Jood]

Hello, everyone!
I was wondering since I've seen some things on this site that led me to think that some people are believers in Jesus Christ. So I thought I would ask a couple of questions. 1st. Do you believe miracles still happen today? 2nd. Do you know of any one who was miracuously healed? 3rd. If you believe miralces don't happen please state why and, if possible your religous status.
Thank-you.
If you doubt about miracles ask me I know a lot of people who were miracuously healed.

[narniaguy]

I belive in miracles. I have had a miracle. I was born about 1 month premature. I couldn't breath when I was born but I got healedand here I am now.

[Parthian King]

A woman I know,a recent convert to Christ, was diagnosed with a terminal brain tumor. She was in pain from it, and the doctors told her it was a matter of (short) time before she wwould be paralyzed, then die. She was baptized to be prepared for meeting the Lord, but within a short time after her baptism she no longer felt pain. She got another CT scan, and the tumor was gone.

[Jood]

WOW Parthian!! That is awesome!!
narniaguy, where you healed by the doctors or did you recieve a miracle healing from God?

[Jood]

Oh yeah Welcome to the club/site narniaguy!! :D :D :D :cool:

[unleavened]

Do miracles happen?
I answer that question with a resounding YES!
I know one person that was healed of chronic stomach probems, one who had a mass that "strangely disappeared." Oh, there was another cool one but I can't remember the details now. I'll come back when I get them.

[Black Jade]

It is my belief that miracles come from men and not the Lord. G-d is waiting for us to redeem ourselves, and such instances as a brain tumor being healed or and sickness erased are not imagination but the effect of concentration and belief in a cure. It has been proven many a time that meditation and faith are more important than whether or not it's real. If you make yourself believe you can be or will be cured, over a matter of time it will happen, and that's not made up, that's fact (Jesus-less fact to add.) And my religious status is Reform Judaism with shared beliefs to countless other peaceful religions.

[inkspot]

It is my belief that miracles come from men and not the Lord. G-d is waiting for us to redeem ourselves
Is this what Judaism teaches? I thought Jews were awaiting the Messiah? How are you to redeem yourself? Just curious ... :)

I do believe in miracles. My big brother was one of the last kids to suffer from polio in the USA (before the vaccine) and God healed him overnight, when he was a small child, in the hospital.

But there are many miracles besides healings.

[Black Jade]

Judaism teaches us to await the Messiah, but that are waiting will be in vain for if we are not the ones to repair the world, the Messiah will not come. (See my response in the "Does Jesus Care" thread for a bit more insight)

Don't worry, it is a common misconception that we as a whole are awaiting a Messiah. Now some Jews would like to sit on their behinds and wait, but most Jews do realize and practice Tikkun Olam and works of charity to bring the time closer that the Messiah will come. It's also a basic idea of Kabbalah (not the evil Hollywood type) that the world is flawed and G-d is too great to repair it. The idea is shared within the Hassidic community as well as many non Hassidic (I, for example, am a reform (not reformed) Jew that believes in the basic ideas of Tikkun Olam and Kabbalah)

[inkspot]

Judaism teaches us to await the Messiah, but that are waiting will be in vain for if we are not the ones to repair the world, the Messiah will not come...It's also a basic idea of Kabbalah (not the evil Hollywood type) that the world is flawed and G-d is too great to repair it. The idea is shared within the Hassidic community as well as many non Hassidic (I, for example, am a reform (not reformed) Jew that believes in the basic ideas of Tikkun Olam and Kabbalah)
We have a similar thing in Christianity! Jesus said, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). That's one reason we share our faith: we realize when everyone has heard the good news, then the King will return! Kind of like your practices of repairing the world so He can come.

[Namaste]

I believe in the existence of miracles, I think that life is a constant miracle, and that God is working in and through our lives at every moment of every day. Our choices, which can reap a positive result is often that which we call a miracle, and our faith is what helps us to see the light at the end of the tunnel. When we refuse to see the miracle, perhaps it is because we're looking for something expected instead of acknowledging what is present. I believe that when I regain my health after illness, that that is a form of miracle, but I am focused more on the small things that add up to something big than in waiting for something big to just happen.

As for my beliefs and how they tie in, I’m don’t consider myself to be a Christian, but rather a believer in New Thought Spirituality.

[Jood]

But there are many miracles besides healings.

What does that mean?

[Aslan the Wise one]

Yes I do belive and know they happen I have seen some things happen to peolpe wich were truely miracles.

[Jood]

As for my beliefs and how they tie in, I’m don’t consider myself to be a Christian, but rather a believer in New Thought Spirituality.

I don't really understand that, could you please explain more in depth?

[Namaste]

New Thought is a brand of spirituality that is well over a century old and it connects the eastern philosophies of Hinduism and Buddhism to the western Christian or Jewish idealogies. We generally have more liberal views about God, and are open to all things of a spiritual nature. That is, many people in New Thought do believe in Jesus, and practice Christian customs, but as an individual, my relationship to Jesus is different than what traditionalist Christian people would embrace, thus I am not sure if I would define myself as being a Christian, because that definition may vary from the ideas that someone else may have about that term. In essence, New Thought people tend to believe outside the box.

It is hard to pinpoint specifically what New Thought people believe because each person has the freedom to determine his/her beliefs and they may have different interpretations about things and thus their beliefs may be different, so I will try to speak on a more general level, that is philosophies that I have heard, but perhaps not studied. Many students of New Thought do believe in Jesus, and that he sacrificed his life those 2000 years ago, but his death (sacrifice) isn't the bulk of what he did, his life was chocked full of parables, lessons, spiritual teachings, and humility. So while we feel that his death held a great deal of significance, it was not the only thing this master teacher did, and we try to embrace all aspects of his life and apply said lessons in our every day lives.

My personal beliefs are as follows: I believe in Reincarnation, that is we have lived before different lives and this life isn't the only chance we get. I believe in and embrace the concept of Miracles (as this particular thread is about and my apologies for drifting off topic), but I simply see miracles as not being the overt and obvious, but also the small and subtle things. A flower blooming, a baby saying his/her first words, someone overcoming a challenge, accomplishments, successes, talents...all of these things are considered to be miracles, because they are gifts that come from God. Thus New Thought students believe in miracles, but we try to keep our eyes open to the subtle as well as the obvious.

Many of us also dismiss the personified or embodied evil, or the devil as being the 'opposite' of God. That is, I believe that God is all that is, and the human concept of the devil is a mythological concept used to determine what God is not. I have long ago dismissed this idea of God judging us and sending us to a place separated from Him/Her. I also do not see God as being only the masculine, but rather both masculine and feminine. These again are aspects of New Thought, but they are essentially my beliefs.

The other aspect of our belief is the opportunity to ask questions and strive to fully understand that our beliefs are in a constant state of evolution. This isn't to say that mainstream religion does not promote the asking of questions or spiritual evolving, because many do, however, having grown up in a very conservative place and being suppressed with regard to spiritual questions, I have found myself moving away from more traditionalist idealogies has been the key for me, and my world view has altered between then and now as a result. Essentially, what I believed as a child is not the same as what I believe today and I remain grateful for that.

In closing, the name I chose to use here, Namasté is a Sanskrit word that means loosely 'the light in me acknowledges the light in you', or as Ram Dass so brilliantly defined it: 'I acknowledge and honor that place in you wherein all truth, beauty, and love resides and when you are in that place in you and I am in that place in me...we are one!'

Thanks for reading, and thanks to elashia_swan for asking. :)

[inkspot]

What does that mean?
Creation was a huge miracle.
Noah surviving the flood was a big miracle.
The virgin birth — huge miracle.
The fact that God would become man in order to save us, immense miracle!
That God saw me in my pain and reached out to rescue me through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ ... a miracle too big for me even to contemplate!
That little Indonesian baby they found alive and all alone after the tsunami: miracle.
The pound puppy who had been adopted only two weeks previously, but escaped her owner's wrecked vehicle and went to a neighboring farm on the country road to get help for her master — miraculous.
If you are looking, you find all kinds of miracles.
That's what I meant, not all miracles are miraculous healings.

[littlemanpoet]

I believe miracles occur in our time; that is, real miracles, not just the things all around us that we choose to call miracles because we find them wonderful; nothing wrong with that, but I do not want us to water down the term. Miracles are supernatural acts of God, sometimes through people, sometimes directly.

I have been involved in miracles. Thrice I have had demons removed from me, each time at a deeper level, and always in the name of Jesus Christ. I have been used to heal someone's back; in the name of Jesus Christ. The gifts of the Spirit are miraculous, and are in operation in our time. God has seen fit to charge me with the responsibility of such gifts as prophecy, words of knowledge, and discernment of spirits. Suffice it to say, though some readers of this may dismiss discernment of spirits as a psychological exercise, this cannot be so since it has always been according to the revealed Word of God, in the name of Jesus Christ, and has "worked" only when I have confessed and repented of my sin; and has failed to "work" no matter how I called on Jesus' name when I still held my heart as my own. So yes. I believe in miracles.

New Thought people tend to believe outside the box.In other words, heterodoxy as opposed to orthodoxy.

So while we feel that his death held a great deal of significance, it was not the only thing this master teacher did, and we try to embrace all aspects of his life and apply said lessons in our every day lives.I think you cannot succeed in embracing all aspects of his life, because one pivotal aspect is that he said, "I am the truth, the life, the way; no-one can come to the Father but by me." But I suppose you may have a different definition of "Father", too....

I believe that God is all that is, and the human concept of the devil is a mythological concept used to determine what God is not.I fear that this makes you easy prey.

I have long ago dismissed this idea of God judging us and sending us to a place separated from Him/Her.So you reject the Bible as the Word of God.

I also do not see God as being only the masculine, but rather both masculine and feminine.This only makes sense since God created both Adam and Eve in his image.

The other aspect of our belief is the opportunity to ask questions and strive to fully understand that our beliefs are in a constant state of evolution. Which means you can't be pinned down to anything?

[Namaste]

In other words, heterodoxy as opposed to orthodoxy.

Please don't put words into my mouth.

I think you cannot succeed in embracing all aspects of his life, because one pivotal aspect is that he said, "I am the truth, the life, the way; no-one can come to the Father but by me." But I suppose you may have a different definition of "Father", too....

Just because you think this way does it make it right? I think there is a great deal to be learned from his life that the Gospel can teach, but I think being open to not just one interpretation makes adds instead of detracts. I happen to have a different interpretation of that line than you, but what you're trying to do is say that I am 'wrong'. But, no one's beliefs are wrong or right, they are just different.

I fear that this makes you easy prey.

Fear is a very dangerous thing, and it is what separates people from God. I would rather focus my energy on God.

So you reject the Bible as the Word of God.

You said it not me. I reject aspects of it yes, but the overall lessons from the Gospel as well as from Cor. 13.13 I don't reject. I have studied theological concepts long enough to know that there does exist contradictions in it, and I don't believe that God intended for things to be contrary, nor do I think that God supported the wars and bloodshed from the Old Testament. I believe that things get lost in translation and I think that the men who put it together left a great deal out as a means of controlling the masses. Take a look at history, and see how the role of women has come about, and then ask yourself if we, as a race, truly have evolved to an extent when the roles of women in society is still beneath men in most of the major planetary religions. Then we argue that that is what God intended?

This only makes sense since God created both Adam and Eve in his image.

And if memory serves, the Bible says that God did just that, but I think we are all created in God's image, especially if we are 'Sons of Adam' and 'Daughter's of Eve', as stated in the Chronicles.

Which means you can't be pinned down to anything?

Why would you want to pin me down? Is this another means to prove a level of rightness? I know that people here are passionate about their beliefs, and I understand it, but I have the right to feel passionate about mine as well, and I will not let anyone 'pin me down', there exists far too much for me to learn in this lifetime and I will not allow myself to be put in a box. You asked about thinking outside the box, and that is exactly what I meant. The moment someone pins another down with regard to beliefs, then one loses their free will to chose and decide what it is that they believe and thus are not free because they have sacrificed it for the sake of another. As I said, I am not what one would call traditional, but this forum is not going to convince me to change my beliefs anymore than my presence here should change theirs. I may learn something special from the people here, but that is far from converting or changing me.

Someone asked what I believe as a student of new thought, and I responded. I was not trying or intending to get into a discussion about new thought, and my sincerist apologies for getting this off the topic, but instead of discussing this further, I think I will bow out of this discussion so that it can get back on the topic that was intended.

Again, my apologies.

[WilliamMoseleyishot]

It is my belief that miracles come from men and not the Lord. G-d is waiting for us to redeem ourselves, and such instances as a brain tumor being healed or and sickness erased are not imagination but the effect of concentration and belief in a cure. It has been proven many a time that meditation and faith are more important than whether or not it's real. If you make yourself believe you can be or will be cured, over a matter of time it will happen, and that's not made up, that's fact (Jesus-less fact to add.) And my religious status is Reform Judaism with shared beliefs to countless other peaceful religions.

the above is just GARBAGE!!!! only God can cure!!! ONLY GOD!!!

[Namaste]

the above is just GARBAGE!!!! only God can cure!!! ONLY GOD!!!

No one has the right to call someone else's belief system 'Garbage'! :(

[Flamazon]

Okay that's quite enough people! PLEASE for the love of all that is good in this world do not argue about religion or belief systems...to each their own!

And as for the question...I believe that miracles do exist. And just for the record...people other than God CAN cure. It is just my personal belief that in that case, it is the Lord that is behind it. I recall a time when my uncle found a bird who had apparently been hit by a car and brought him to my grandma and me. I must have been about 13 at the time. Anyway, the bird was lying in a shoe box all day long, not wanting to eat or drink or move. That night, he began to have these sort of awful convulsions and spasms. I began to cry and my grandma told me he was most likely not going to make it. I ran outside to our strawberry patch that we used to have and grabbed some. I turned them into juice, trying desperately to feed it to the bird. At that moment, something just kind of came over me. *don't laugh I'm telling the truth* I saw a glowing circle in my mind, a burning white color with blue around it. I closed my eyes and put my hands on the bird...what happened next I am not certain. The convulsions stopped and he drank from the strawberry juice. The next morning, my grandma went to wake me up. I thought that the bird had died but she told me to go see in the living room. When I went, there he was! We took him outside as he began to eat the seeds that we scattered on the patio floor. I ran to my room to get my glasses and went outside again. I expected him to be gone but he was there. I sat down next to the bird and began talking to him, telling him he was welcome to come again. A second or two after that, he flew away. Ever since then, I have noticed more blue birds like him around the house. It's something that I couldn't figure out but I wish to call it a healing miracle since he was in lamentable shape and then next day perfectly well. What do you guys think? I'm curious...

[Namaste]

I think that's beautiful! Thank you for reminding me of what this thread is supposed to be about.

My gratitude to you.

Blessings!

[Flamazon]

:o Don't mention it dear! *smiles*

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Hi, all! I posted earlier on this thread, and thought I'd drop in again with a question or two.

First off: beautiful account, Flamazon. Others might scoff or laugh, but I have no doubt that something unusual happened between you and the wounded bird - from the sounds of it, something I would call miraculous. What the nature of the power was, I won't hazard a guess. I'm certain God was involved somehow, since He's involved in everything. Some people are frightened of any such manifestations that don't have an explicitly religious context (and sometimes even then). According to the teachings I follow, there is some justification for such concern under certain circumstances, since not all supernatural power is benevolent. However, no threatening conditions seem to exist in this case: you were not seeking glory, power, or anything for yourself; in fact, you were not even expecting what happened. The "fruit" of the deed was good - one of God's creatures was restored to health. I hope you were diligent in asking God why He would cause such a thing to happen, and particularly why He would use you to do it.

Which leads me to my question, but first a couple of details. Greetings, Namaste! I noticed your post on your New Thought beliefs, and thank you for the courtesy of being so thorough. Being something of a historian, though, I had to chuckle at the name (which I realize you did not come up with). There's really nothing "new" about that thought. It's much older than a century - most of the principles have been around for millenia, and the idea of selecting beliefs from several systems to suit your preferences is literally the oldest religion in the book. In any event, I find it delightful that you've chosen Tumnus as your avatar - he's been a favorite of mine since I first met him at age 8. Black Jade, greetings again, cousin! For my part, I am an orthodox Christian, Roman Catholic, fully supernaturalist (i.e. I believe all the miracles in Scripture, and that they still occur today - like at every Mass :D) and committed to the teachings of my Church in their full rigor. Some would think that brings me into conflict with many, but when I say *full* rigor, that also means the part about treating all men with courtesy and dignity. It teaches me to recognize the truth in all things, though it also teaches me that not all those truths are equal!

A couple of definitions I use: when speaking of a splendid thing that lies within the normal bounds of natural order, I use the term "wonder". For instance, the gestation and hatching of the bird that was wounded is something I would call a wonder, since such things regularly happen within the natural order of our universe. This does not mean they do not encompass mysteries and glories that deserve to be pondered more than they are! But when these mysteries and glories are woven into the warp and woof of our existence, I call these wonders. Miracles is a term I reserve for a something that happens outside of the normal bounds of the natural order. From the sounds of it, the healing of the wounded bird may have been a miracle - something that would happen outside the normal workings of nature. Thus, Namaste, you and I differ slightly in our definitions, though I think it a minor thing. Some things you would call miracles I would call wonders - but no less wonderful for that! One thing I'm sure we agree on: a rejection of the mechanistic materialism that so permeates our age, that thinking which truncates glory and calls refers to the Great Dance with terms like "ecosystem". We most certainly do need to meditate more on the wonders about us!

After that buildup, here's the simple question. I put this particularly to Namaste, but I'd welcome Black Jade's (and anyone's) thoughts on it. Based on Flamazon's account of the healing of the wounded bird, which you called "beautiful", I presume you would consider that a good thing (I certainly do). But why? What is better about a healed bird than a wounded or dead one? Do not think I am asking this merely to be a provocateur - I am sincerely interested in your answer. I do not want to read into your beliefs things you did not say, but there was a certain "Eastern" flavour to your statement of belief. If so, that would indicate either Buddhist or Hindu roots (or, possibly, Shinto). By classic Eastern thinking, suffering is either an illusion, and thus no different from non-suffering, or it is the result of tanha (literally "grasping") - in which case the quickest route to alleviation is the extinction of the individual (yourself). So I'm asking: upon what grounds would you say that such healing is good?

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Speaking of miracles, take a look at this (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,178786,00.html). This may simply be considered an "immediate answer", but it sure is good news!

[Namaste]

I put this particularly to Namaste, but I'd welcome Black Jade's (and anyone's) thoughts on it. Based on Flamazon's account of the healing of the wounded bird, which you called "beautiful", I presume you would consider that a good thing (I certainly do). But why? What is better about a healed bird than a wounded or dead one? Do not think I am asking this merely to be a provocateur - I am sincerely interested in your answer. I do not want to read into your beliefs things you did not say, but there was a certain "Eastern" flavour to your statement of belief. If so, that would indicate either Buddhist or Hindu roots (or, possibly, Shinto). By classic Eastern thinking, suffering is either an illusion, and thus no different from non-suffering, or it is the result of tanha (literally "grasping") - in which case the quickest route to alleviation is the extinction of the individual (yourself). So I'm asking: upon what grounds would you say that such healing is good?

Wow, this is really going to take some time for me to put together some ideas here, and Heaven knows that you have put a great deal of thought into your posting, so it is justifiable for me to offer a much more profound answer than just 'beautiful'. :)

OK, what is better about a live bird than an injured one or a dead one? Good question, and here's my answer, I don't have one except my own perceptions about what a bird symbolizes. I do believe as many mystics believe, that when the physical body dies the spirit lives on to infinity, thus the dead bird is merely the shell that contains something much bigger and grander, the spirit. So, yes, I can see why you would raise this inquiry and there is nothing out of the ordinary or strange in raising it.

I must also say that in relation to the bird being healthy, that life is a gift, and that life is an expression of God's love. That is, in creating this world and all living things, God has offered the gift of life, He has, as they say breathed life into all things. The imagery of Aslan breathing on the stone figures and restoring life is a wonderful allegory for what I think truly has happened when our spirts came to be.

Thus, the idea of a living and healthy bird being better or more positive comes to mind because of the images that I have always had when it came to birds. My fascination with watching birds fly has probably been around since my youth, and it is one thing that connects me to my grandmother. Yet, I also have always felt that a bird in flight represents 'true spiritual freedom', seeing this reminds me of something poignant and wonderful about breaking free from bonds (whether physical or imagined) and rising above it. To race against the sky is only something that we, as human beings, can perceive in our dreams. Yet, to see a bird fly across the sky is a sort of representation of what freedom truly is. Thus my response of 'beautiful'.

So I guess you could say that in essence a wounded or dead bird is not worse than a live one except for the emotional ties that I might give to it. It is all based on what my perception of what that bird spiritually represents when it takes to flight. Does that make it true or real? No, perhaps not to those of you reading these words, but to me, the writer of them, then the answer is yes, it does represent something very special to me.

Recently I spoke to a friend of ours who is a private pilot (like my husband) and I asked him why he flies and he said 'I fly because it is something that brings me closer to God. Flying is my way of touching the heavens in the only way I can think of.' So, as these words filtered through my mind, I was able to relate to that idea, because I feel it every time I see a bird take to flight. I hope that explains with some clarity why I said what I said.

Thanks again, PrinceOfTheWest for your questions and for putting me to the challenge. I enjoyed reading that you are Roman Catholic, as I have great many contacts with folks from your church and they have been some of the kindest and most open-minded individuals that I have encountered since moving to Germany. It is nice to read that although one comes from a traditionalist Christian background that one still maintains an open mind in matters of this kind, and I thank you for your objective responses to my postings.

[Gibby]

Speaking of miracles, take a look at this (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,178786,00.html). This may simply be considered an "immediate answer", but it sure is good news!

Fox News rocks....

[Edmund Pevensie]

I believe in miracles but there is something that I learned in Bruce Almighty (even though it is a comedy) which is that we see miracles every day because what we don't realize is that we have the power to make miracles happen we just don't realize it. For your second question well I think I don't know anyone who has miracously healed but I still believe that miracles happen and that we have that power.

[Jood]

Fear is a very dangerous thing, and it is what separates people from God. I would rather focus my energy on God.



Fear is dangerous? If you want to know if it is really dangerous or not. Look up in your Strongs Concordance or Quick verse or Power Bible. Wichever you have, look for "fear god " or "fear lord " . There you should be able to find you answer.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

That depends on what you mean by "fear". The "fear of the Lord" is fear in the sense of awe - i.e. stand in awe of His Majesty, realize your place before Him. I think the fear Namaste might be referring to is fear in the sense of dread - the fear Jesus spoke of when He said, "Fear not! For I have overcome the world!"

Namaste, I would suggest that a prudent fear has its place in causing us to behave properly. If it's snowing, it is partly out of fear of crashing that causes me to slow down and drive carefully. Fear has its place when it warns us to take prudent action in the face of danger.

I agree that one should not live in dread - but it is not the dread itself that drives me from God, but rather my turning to other things to assuage the dread.

[Namaste]

Namaste, I would suggest that a prudent fear has its place in causing us to behave properly. If it's snowing, it is partly out of fear of crashing that causes me to slow down and drive carefully. Fear has its place when it warns us to take prudent action in the face of danger.

What you describe here is what I would describe as 'caution', but that is not the same thing. This is what I meant about me being different in my interpretations, when I say 'fear', I mean something like 'being scared of something', but 'caution' is a very prudent idea, and one I will say 'yes, there are things I am very cautious about', but to say I fear God? Never, I love God, and fear doesn't even come into my vocabulary because fear is the opposite of love, and God is love.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

So, you would say you have no awe of God? Surely God is love, but He is many other things as well, including very powerful. Heck, I get awe-filled when I stand beside big waterfall or see thunderstorm lines coming - I can't imagine how I'd feel before the Lord who spun the galaxies.

Maybe you and I mean different things when we use the word "God".

[Namaste]

Of course I do, but I don't define my awe of God to be 'fear'. I am quite blown away by the sheer majesty of God.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Let me be sure I'm understanding you aright. When you say: I don't have one except my own perceptions about what a bird symbolizes.
it seems to me that you're saying that your preference for a live bird over a dead one is just that: a personal preference, just like what you prefer on your pizza? Later you say: the idea of a living and healthy bird being better or more positive comes to mind because of the images that I have always had when it came to birds. Does this mean that if your upbringing had been different - say you grew up on the edge of starvation and a bird just might mean a little extra supper - that the image of a dead bird would be preferable to one that was alive (and flying away)?

But - forgive me, I confuse easily - then you go on to say that you believe: when the physical body dies the spirit lives on to infinity, thus the dead bird is merely the shell that contains something much bigger and grander, the spirit. Does this mean that the greater thing (the spirit) is contained in the lesser thing (the body)? Much like a man in, say, a cage? If so, how did this spirit come to be in this body? Did it preexsist the body? Does it belong there, or is a spirit within a body an abnormal state for that spirit?

Then you say : life is a gift, and that life is an expression of God's love. Combined with your earlier statement, would that imply that life as a pure spirit is a better life than that of a spirit-in-a-body? Is it God who makes the spirit and the body? Why would He imprison a spirit in a body, if "imprison" is the proper verb?

Toward the end there, you state I guess you could say that in essence a wounded or dead bird is not worse than a live one except for the emotional ties that I might give to it. By this you are saying that the statement "a live bird is better than a dead one" could not be made absolutely by anyone, least of all yourself.

The thing I'm really interested in is the spirit and death thing.

Just so you'll know where I'm coming from: as an orthodox Christian, I would say that God created the bird, and that creation was objectively good. Even if there was nobody around to feel good or bad about the bird, the fact that it existed would be good. We'd also say that the death of the bird would be bad, especially since it would be a senseless death (i.e. it wouldn't do anyone any good, such as providing food.) We hold that death is an abnormal condition that doesn't belong in the world, but was brought in by evil. We also hold that someday God will abolish death from the universe.

Any thoughts?

[Namaste]

Before I start, if there is a problem with understanding this, I'm sorry, it's very late here and I'm exhausted!

Let me be sure I'm understanding you aright. it seems to me that you're saying that your preference for a live bird over a dead one is just that: a personal preference, just like what you prefer on your pizza?

It's not necessarily as though I am saying I prefer something that is physically not here, it means that I would rather see a live bird fly over my head than to see a dead creature on the ground.

Does this mean that if your upbringing had been different - say you grew up on the edge of starvation and a bird just might mean a little extra supper - that the image of a dead bird would be preferable to one that was alive (and flying away)?

No, not at all, you're trying to catch me in a contradiction, I'm not trying to be contrary. What I am saying is that the living creature is beautiful, the act of watching a bird flying gives me the feeling of freedom. If the creature is wounded or dead, then I feel saddened because I wouldn't want it to suffer, and I don't have any intentions of eating it or hunting it.

But - forgive me, I confuse easily - then you go on to say that you believe: Does this mean that the greater thing (the spirit) is contained in the lesser thing (the body)? Much like a man in, say, a cage? If so, how did this spirit come to be in this body? Did it preexist the body? Does it belong there, or is a spirit within a body an abnormal state for that spirit?

There's nothing to forgive. :) We are made up of body, mind and spirit. The body is that which houses or embodies our soul. One of my friends who is agnostic doesn't believe in life after death, he believes that when we die, that's it, but what I believe in that the spirit (soul) is eternal. The bird's soul too will live on even after the physical body is no longer present. Perhaps, it is not so much the body houses the spirit, but the spirit houses the body...or loosely said, keeps things together. ;) I'm sorry if I implied 'imprison', I meant in essence 'houses' or 'embodies'. 'Imprisons' implies that we are in this life because we have to be or are forced to be in it by God, but I don't believe that God forces anything on us, but instead, our spirits choose to be. (This is getting really much deeper into spirituality than I intended, and I hope you can understand me.)

By this you are saying that the statement "a live bird is better than a dead one" could not be made absolutely by anyone, least of all yourself.

This is what I meant; to see physically a live bird is better than seeing a dead one, but the hardest thing for me to see is one that is wounded or suffering. That is something that I cannot bear, to see another person or creature suffering. 'Better' then becomes 'subjective' because it becomes what I prefer, as opposed to what is before me. I cannot change the reality of it, I can only change how I see it.

The thing I'm really interested in is the spirit and death thing.

Have you seen the film 'What Dreams May Come?' That film actually explains a lot of what I believe about life after physical death. I read a lot of books by Neale Donald Walsch as well, and there are many concepts contained in his writing that I have applied in my beliefs about this very concept, but while Christians call the 'life after death', heaven, I call it, 'the spirit world'. But, the spirit by my definition is the soul by many Christians' definitions.

Just so you'll know where I'm coming from: as an orthodox Christian, I would say that God created the bird, and that creation was objectively good. Even if there was nobody around to feel good or bad about the bird, the fact that it existed would be good. We'd also say that the death of the bird would be bad, especially since it would be a senseless death (i.e. it wouldn't do anyone any good, such as providing food.) We hold that death is an abnormal condition that doesn't belong in the world, but was brought in by evil. We also hold that someday God will abolish death from the universe.

Any thoughts?

Aside from word choice and the concept of evil, I think we have found some common ground. I embrace the physical life because it is a gift from God, thus all life, including the life of that bird is important and special, whether we can see its relevance or not, but I think that some of our ideas are parallel.

I want to acknowledge you for your questions and I think it is great that you can disagree with me in a respectful and kind manner without getting rude. It speaks highly of you as an individual.

[littlemanpoet]

Please don't put words into my mouth.
I apologize for the abrasive tone of the post to which you responded, Namaste.

Just because you think this way does it make it right?No. It's not about me. It's about the truth. God has very gently led me out of error into truth, not by any deserving on my part. I pray the same for you.

I used to think the same things you expressed. There is much that you say about the status of women and contradictions, which tell me that you are a man (or woman?) of your times. The Church certainly has not always been what Christ founded it to be, but it still is the primary means by which Jesus chooses to do His work of grace in the world. We who are in the Church should be greatly humbled by this.

As my signature says, I'm not going to get into a debate with you about the merits of Christianity vis a vie new thought. The truth is the truth, regardless of what we may want it to be. Jesus is the truth, the light, the way. Any ways other than him are sadly mistaken, and lead to great sorrow. I pray and hope that the joy and truth of Christ reaches you in the deepest reaches of your heart, Namaste.

All praise and glory be to Christ Jesus our savior and Lord!

[Namaste]

But do we really know the truth? We have references that back up claims, and we have beliefs, but beliefs don't convey truth, beliefs are there as a comfort, as an internal wisdom, but no one person's truth is the absolute truth. We believe them to be true because they are a part of what makes us us. You cannot determine if the things I believe are not the truth because you don't know everything I believe. You only know what I posted here, and these are my truths, these are the things that offer me comfort when I am sad, or when things seem hopeless, but no one can prove that their truths are 'absolute', at least not to me. But, I do applaud your passion in your beliefs, and I know that they must be right for you.

I respect you for your beliefs, and I respect every person for feeling the way they do about God, however, I am a living, breathing, creation of God, I cannot change my world view, or belief system just because one person wishes of it, because one person says I don't fit into their spiritual / religious box. I understand that some churches preach that their members should try and help others attain 'salvation' as they see it, but what if a person who has different beliefs wishes to hold tightly to their own beliefs? No one should have the right to tell someone that their beliefs are wrong. Whether we like it or not, beliefs are rather subjective, and although we may have the Bible to back up our claims, I don't believe that the Bible is the only word of God, nor do I believe that the English or German versions are exactly as it was recorded those thousands of years ago. Things do get lost in translation, I speak two languages, I know, because I see it every day.

As for my views about Jesus, since you brought him up, I will tell you how I feel about him. I love him dearly, I love what he stands for, but I don't love how we, as a race, have manipulated his message to serve our own purposes, and sadly, history will attest to that. Jesus was one of the most wise and unconditionally loving, and caring masters of all time. He cared for all people, even the ones that the intellectuals banished and treated without regard. He hung out with tax collectors, women of the street, and all the people who were judged during his time as 'undesirable'. Yet, he never judged anyone, but during his ultimate sacrifice he asked God to forgive those who tormented him. Yes, his death was a major sacrifice, and it breaks my heart that he had to do this, but it is because I love him so much that my heart aches whenever it is mentioned. I believe that if I were to meet him on the street at any given moment, he would not reject me, as many churches have done, but rather would love me without condition, just as I believe God loves me without condition.

The biggest problem I have with religion is not the passion that people have about their beliefs, but about how people will often try to force their conditions on God, and thus believe that they possess the right to speak for Him/Her.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Well, well - so much to answer! Heavens, I try to get things going carefully and slowly, and suddenly I've got several manifestos to grapple with! Let me see if I'm understanding things properly.

A word to begin: in your kind response to my question, Namaste, at one point you say "you're trying to catch me in a contradiction". Please understand, I'm not trying to "catch" anyone. If I juxtapose two statements that seem to contradict, it is a rhetorical device I use to try to get clarity. I've found that if I think I'm seeing a contradiction, the problem is usually my understanding rather than the other person's position. If I say to them, "Your saying this here, but you said that over there - what gives?" the result is typically, "What I meant was...", and we both arrive at the desired clarification. I realize this seems strange in this media-dominated age, when questions are used like bludgeons and the "search for truth" is usually a sugar-coating used to disguise a witch hunt, but my teacher was Lewis, and he used that technique often (I think he learned it from Socrates :)).

I'll begin where you did: But do we really know the truth?Variations of that question have been asked throughout history, especially in one very memorable circumstance. But then you proceed to sharply differentiate beliefs from truth, stating: but beliefs don't convey truth, beliefs are there as a comfort, as an internal wisdom, but no one person's truth is the absolute truth.From this, you seem to be saying that "belief" is a term you use to describe a totally internal, subjective thing, such as one's taste in music. Your definition seems to be that it is a set of opinions that bring internal comfort and stability, but go no further than our "skin" (so to speak).

There are two interesting things about this definition, and they are related. One is the total detachment of belief from truth, and the other is the radical individualism. The detachment from truth is most unusual: you are literally the first person I've ever talked to who totally detached belief from truth. Everyone I've ever spoken to, from professors to janitors, from orthodox Christians to strict materialists, always tied their beliefs to objective reality - truth. In fact, the reason they held certain beliefs was because they thought they reflected the way things "really were".

An example from history: in Ancient Rome, there were areas near the city that were low and swampy and the air was heavy, dank, and clammy. Often when people went down there, they contracted a disease that made them ache and cough. This correspondence was so frequent that the Romans began calling the disease the "bad air" disease, because they thought the dank, heavy air caused it. Much later, we learned that it was not the air that was the problem, it was the mosquitoes - in fact, it wasn't even them, but the microbes they carried. Thus, we would say the ancients "believed wrongly" about malaria; i.e. their beliefs did not reflect the objective situation.

As I said, this is how most people (and, I daresay, most of history) has used the term "belief": as a set of attitudes or assumptions which the holder understands to reflect some objective reality. To totally internalize it, to say it applies to you alone and serves only as a personal comfort, is an unusual use of the term. This also explains why you'd have such misunderstanding with orthodox Christians such as myself, for when we use the term "belief", we presume it means "reflection of objective, external reality". Speaking to people like me, you'd find yourself in the same position as someone who said, "I drove my toaster to the bank this morning."

But here again, I find myself confused. Later in the same post, you state your beliefs (in, I presume, your sense, i.e. "draw comfort from") regarding Jesus. You clearly admire the fact that Jesus was one of the most wise and unconditionally loving, and caring masters of all time. He cared for all people, even the ones that the intellectuals banished and treated without regard. He hung out with tax collectors, women of the street, and all the people who were judged during his time as 'undesirable'.You speak of this as a noble thing, better than the actions of those people doing the judging. For the record, I believe the same thing - but for the life of me, based on your definition, I don't see how you can. You believe ("draw comfort from") the idea that all people deserve to be treated with respect, and commend Jesus for doing it; however, there were plenty of people at the time who did not draw comfort from that idea, and said as much. What about their beliefs? Based on your definition, they were no more "wrong" than you - they were just clinging to what gave them comfort. Now, I can say they were wrong, because my definition of belief means "reflects an objective, external reality". I try to conform my belief to my best understanding of that reality, and in fact take Jesus' example in this instance as a yardstick against which I can measure how well I'm doing. At times this puts my definition in stark contradiction to yours, since there have been times that Jesus' example has put me in contact with people I'd really rather not deal with - very uncomfortable. But at those times I've had to concede that it was my feelings that were our of sync with the objective reality, not my beliefs.

One more question, a quick correction, then I'm done. The question is this: you clearly draw comfort from Jesus' treatment of the social outcasts. But at another point, Jesus said "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me." Now, that doesn't sound very respectful to other people's beliefs; in fact, it sounds harshly exclusive. If you are going to accept Jesus' teachings regarding the social outcasts, what do you do with that?

The correction is this: you state that your "biggest problem" with religion is:how people will often try to force their conditions on God, and thus believe that they possess the right to speak for Him/Her.Speaking for my own tradition, our belief (my sense) is that the foremost reality is that God is speaking to us, telling us what to do and what not to do, and how to conform our beliefs to the objective reality. This is what the term "revelation" means: "revealed truth". I am not saying that we don't have a problem with "tweaking" what we hear to make it more comfortable, or even putting words in God's mouth, but that is not the ideal. The goal is to hear well, apply the message to ourselves first, and pass the message along intact so that others can benefit, too. Now, given your definitions and understanding of belief, which seems to be completely subjective, it doesn't surprise me that you'd not be able to connect with that definition. In your view, somebody suggesting that you believe a certain thing sounds like somebody choosing your music for you, or specifying what you want on your pizza. In our view, we're more like people trying to talk to one of the ancient Romans about where malaria really comes from.

[Gibby]

As for my views about Jesus, since you brought him up, I will tell you how I feel about him. I love him dearly, I love what he stands for, but I don't love how we, as a race, have manipulated his message to serve our own purposes, and sadly, history will attest to that. Jesus was one of the most wise and unconditionally loving, and caring masters of all time. He cared for all people, even the ones that the intellectuals banished and treated without regard. He hung out with tax collectors, women of the street, and all the people who were judged during his time as 'undesirable'. Yet, he never judged anyone, but during his ultimate sacrifice he asked God to forgive those who tormented him. Yes, his death was a major sacrifice, and it breaks my heart that he had to do this, but it is because I love him so much that my heart aches whenever it is mentioned. I believe that if I were to meet him on the street at any given moment, he would not reject me, as many churches have done, but rather would love me without condition, just as I believe God loves me without condition.

The biggest problem I have with religion is not the passion that people have about their beliefs, but about how people will often try to force their conditions on God, and thus believe that they possess the right to speak for Him/Her.

I have used this analogy somewhere before here, but I'll use it againg because I like it http://www.narniafans.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif. Suppose you found a cure for cancer. Are you going to keep it to yourself? No, certainly not! If you had any love for your fellow man, you would shout it from the rooftops! Jesus came with the cure for a cancer of mankind, sin.

Matthew 10:27
27What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs.

As far as us believers in Christ "forcing" our conditions on others, I disagree. Believers try to share the truth of Christ's message with a sense of urgency and love. We are, in essence, trying to snatch people from the fire and the bondage of the evil one. This was Jesus' command to us; to share His word.

John 3:32-34

32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:32-34;&version=31;#fen-NIV-26145a)] gives the Spirit without limit.

One more question, a quick correction, then I'm done. The question is this: you clearly draw comfort from Jesus' treatment of the social outcasts. But at another point, Jesus said "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me." Now, that doesn't sound very respectful to other people's beliefs; in fact, it sounds harshly exclusive. If you are going to accept Jesus' teachings regarding the social outcasts, what do you do with that?



PoTW has an excellent point here. Jesus came to die for our sins. Do you believe that he is the Son of the living God? And also, if you say that you love Him, by thinking that there is another way to heaven and that the way through Christ is no exclusive, why did He have to die such a horrible death on the cross? To say that there are other ways to heaven is to reject Christ's sacrafice for you! And Jesus said who he says he is, or he is a liar. C.S. Lewis comments about this in Mere Christianity:

I'm trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing
that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a
great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That
is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man
and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral
teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with a man who
says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You
must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God:
or else a madman or something worse.

I believe Jesus is the Son of God and I will proclaim this truth from the rooftops! Jesus' message can not be watered down to keep from offending people, either. If we did this, there would be no transforming power in His message.

Jesus' message that He is the only way to the Father is like fingernails on a chalkboard to those who resist surrendering their lives to Him. But His message is the Truth, and true love is not afraid to confront.

Matthew 10:34-36

34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=34&end_verse=36&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-23454a)]

Our Creator made us and He knows what we need; fellowship with Him. Jesus makes this possible by His sacrafice for us (that means you) If you truly love Jesus, you will accept His free gift to you and invite Him into your heart.

[inkspot]

I believe that if I were to meet him on the street at any given moment, he would not reject me, as many churches have done, but rather would love me without condition, just as I believe God loves me without condition.
Right you are there, chief, couldn't have said it better myself! Not only would Jesus love you unconditionaly if He met you on the street, but He loves you unconditionaly right now.

Namaste, I am so sorry if some Christians have rejected you and then tried to make you feel as if it were Christ in them who was rejecting you. Jesus never rejected anyone, and He is waiting for you now, open arms. The thing is, to come to Him, you have to believe Him when He says He is the only way, that no one comes to God through Him. When you come to Him, you must give Him all of you -- He loves you so much, He can't settle for less.

In the Bible, a rich young man came to Christ asking how to be saved, and Jesus looked at him, and loved him, and said, "Sell all you have, give it to the poor, and follow me." Jesus saw this young man's good heart and wanted desperately to count on him as a follower, a friend. But he also saw that there was one thing this young man loved most: his wealth. So Jesus asked him to give it away, to set himself free from the bondage of that materialism! And sadly, the Bible records, he couldn't do it. He went away unhappy. (Mark 10:17-22)

Namaste, Jesus is looking at you right now, loving you, and saying, "Give up your universalist belief in many ways to heaven, and follow me alone." If He'll have you, He'll have all of you. That's His way. But please trust me: you lose nothing by abandoning your old beliefs, and you gain a Friend who sticks closer than a brother! (PRoverbs 18:24) I pray you will examine His claims about Himself and accept His proposal. He loves you!

His passion for you is so much stronger than that of a lover, a mate -- and a mate would never stand to share you with anyone else, so you cannot expect Christ to share you with any other belief for salvation. He wants to be your one and only, and it is so worth it! :)

[Namaste]

Guys, I really do appreciate your posting messages to me, but I am really happy with my beliefs as they are, this is what I tried to convey to LittleManPoet. I am not going to give up my 'Universalist' beliefs because they are special to me, I have conveyed my love in one of my postings to Jesus, and I do love him, just in my way, in the way that feels right to me.

I can fully understand the passion you feel about your beliefs, I feel them about mine! They are not so different from yours, but they are special to me, the way I praise God, the way I address Jesus...the way I pray, or meditate is right for me, I have been happier than I have been in years, my faith is what saved me from a great deal of trauma of my childhood, and it has helped me to find forgiveness for events in my past, the only difference between us is interpretation.

PrinceOfTheWest, I will try to respond more fully to your posting in the coming days, I have to get ready to go out, we have rehearsal for our Advent concert tonight.

Incidentally, several months ago, a Benedictine Monk asked me the following question, 'would you wash Jesus' feet with your tears and dry them with your hair?' I immediately answered with 'yes'.

[Gibby]

So, in essence, you are saying, "Sorry you had to die, Jesus, but that's not for me; I don't need it. Thanks anyway!" ?


Matthew 7:21-23
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

John 6:28-29


28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."





John 6:39-41

39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." 41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven."

[Gibby]

What's up with my font sizes, anyway? That last post looks terrible! sorryhttp://www.narniafans.com/forum/images/icons/icon11.gifI'm not sure why it did that, must be the "cut and paste" thing

[Namaste]

No Gibby, I'm not saying this, but your posting is really becoming exasperating. I said my interpretation of scripture is different. Can't we just leave it at that? Please, and do stop trying to put words into my mouth.

[inkspot]

Guys, I really do appreciate your posting messages to me, but I am really happy with my beliefs as they are, this is what I tried to convey to LittleManPoet. I am not going to give up my 'Universalist' beliefs because they are special to me, I have conveyed my love in one of my postings to Jesus, and I do love him, just in my way, in the way that feels right to me.
That's cool, and I don't want to come down on you at all. Just so you know, Jesus told us the way we could properly respond to His love, and when it seems right to you, I hope you will accept it. The Bible says, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Proverbs 14:12), just so you know that, our feelings don't always tell us the truth. I can personally testify to this, and maybe this has happened to you: you fall in love with the WRONG person, and for a while, you are on a total high with that person, and no one who confronts you with the truth about that person can shake your faith that the person is perfect and right for you! Then after a while, something happens to show you the kind of person you are in love with? And you have to run away screaming and wondering how you could have been so crazy? See, there are times when feelings don't lead you donw the right path, even if they are great feelings. So, you know, keep an open mind.

[Gibby]

No Gibby, I'm not saying this, but your posting is really becoming exasperating. I said my interpretation of scripture is different. Can't we just leave it at that? Please, and do stop trying to put words into my mouth.

I am just trying to interpret what you are saying about your beliefs. The purpose of Jesus' sacrafice is to pay the penalty for our sins which releases us from judgement, also known as hell. You say that you don't believe in judgement, therefore, Jesus' sacrafice was not necessary, according to your beliefs. At least, this is the only logical conclusion that I can come up with. Am I misunderstanding your view on judgement and hell?


Many of us also dismiss the personified or embodied evil, or the devil as being the 'opposite' of God. That is, I believe that God is all that is, and the human concept of the devil is a mythological concept used to determine what God is not. I have long ago dismissed this idea of God judging us and sending us to a place separated from Him/Her. I also do not see God as being only the masculine, but rather both masculine and feminine. These again are aspects of New Thought, but they are essentially my beliefs.



Jesus' sacrafice saves us from judgement, also known as hell (which is eternal seperation from Him).

I apologize for putting words in your mouth; forgive me. http://www.narniafans.com/forum/images/icons/icon11.gif

[Jood]

This is almost unbelieveable..................................... .....

[Aslan's Son]

I believe in miracles as I believe in God-miracles come from God and men (sometimes) in my opinion. One miracle (well, not really a 'miracle', but something similiar) that I know of happened to my aunt (my mum's younger sister). From what Mum told me, me aunt had a dream that God was talking to her-he called out the names of my family and myself, and said that everything was going to be alright (me granddad died in 2000-it was hard on my aunt). Then my uncle woke up and her face was glowing. I guess that's considered a miracle. :)

[WilliamMoseleyishot]

No one has the right to call someone else's belief system 'Garbage'! :(

Yes I have the right to call someone's belief system garbage! think about the first Amendment- "congress shall make no law concerning an establishment of religion, or prohibition the free excercise theroef; OR ABRIDGING THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH..." so you see I DO have the right to say that!

[Flamazon]

Oh for heaven's sake! Act like a mature adult will you? At least do it out of pure courtesy and respect. :rolleyes:

[Gibby]

Yes I have the right to call someone's belief system garbage! think about the first Amendment- "congress shall make no law concerning an establishment of religion, or prohibition the free excercise theroef; OR ABRIDGING THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH..." so you see I DO have the right to say that!

Perhaps you are right, but do you think that they are going to listen to you if you do? That is a sure-fire way to put a big wall up between you and the person you are trying to communicate with.http://www.narniafans.com/forum/images/icons/icon11.gif

[Specter]

Yes I have the right to call someone's belief system garbage! think about the first Amendment- "congress shall make no law concerning an establishment of religion, or prohibition the free excercise theroef; OR ABRIDGING THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH..." so you see I DO have the right to say that!
Hello.. Welcome to my Family-Friendly forum here on Narnia Fans. Calling someone's belief system "garbage" may be okay to do where you come from, but, when it comes to the Dancing Lawn, well, welcome to my world. You cannot do that. This is your warning. Did you not read the terms of use? If not, I suggest you do. For the record, we've got a one two strike policy about respecting other's belief systems here.

[inkspot]

Thanks, Paul!

[Specter]

You're welcome!

Now, to answer the question, "Do miracles happen?" Yes, they do. I've experienced many many miracles in my life. For instance:

I'm still alive. I was born with the umbilical cord wrapped around my neck 3 times, choking me to death. I also got bronchitis before my bronchial tubes finished forming in my body. Both times, I was near death, and both times, God said "I need you alive."

If that's not enough for you, there was a man I met at a youth conference... he told this story of how he regained his faith. His daughter was out running around, and for some reason, she ran into the street. She got hit by a car, and was killed instantly, and her body was all torn up. She was also cold when he got to her. He started to sob as he held her in his arms, and prayed "Lord, if you give me one more chance to tell her that I love her, I will believe in you from now until forever" or something like that. And suddenly, her heart started beating, and warmth started to come back into her body, as the ambulance arrived. At the hospital, she was all bandaged up, everywhere, and the doctors told her that there would be major scarring all over her body from the surgeries and the injuries. Then they removed the bandages. The nurses and doctors involved were all stunned. There was not a scar on her body, even when there should have been.

[Flamazon]

Well that sure is a miracle! I'm speechless...it's just amazing!

[littlemanpoet]

But do we really know the truth?Only because it has been revealed to us. It's another question whether we accept it as it is.

beliefs are there as a comfort, You've helped me pinpoint a disease of our times. Thank you for that. It's common to at least two groups: (1) those who deny the existence of God on account of human suffering, and (2) those who believe that God must let every human into heaven or else He somehow loses.

The 'disease', as I have called it, is the modern western addiction to thinking ourselves into a set of beliefs so that we can feel good about ourselves, protecting ourselves from the painful realities of life, such as human suffering, evil in the world, et cetera; but the most significant painful reality is that none of us is really as good as we like to think.

You see, when God (a real Being, by the way) created everything, He had a standard that He set for it all, that it function according to the way He intended it in the first place. But He also had/has a deep desire to be in relation to the free beings He created, fully aware that by making us free, we had the capacity to choose against Him. We chose against Him. There was a price to pay: Death, which is separation from God. But God had a plan for that price to be paid, and came into the world Himself to pay that price for us in the Person of Jesus Christ.

All we need to do is believe that He was who He said He was, and that He did what He claimed He would do, and that He's alive today in Heaven, doing all He can (since we all still can reject Him) to convince, persuade, cajole us to accept what He's done, short of removing our free will from us. So we have the choice while we're alive to accept or reject Him.

If we reject Him, when we die, we Die. That's called hell, which is separation from God. The "up-side" of hell, if it can be called that is that for those who reject God, it's not much different from their existence right now, since they are currenlty separated from His love ... except in two ways. First, you'll know for certain that Christ is what He keeps saying He is; Second, it will be too late. So accept Him on His terms, since He made it all in the first place. He only wants you to enjoy His love for eternity. Otherwise, though He keeps loving you, you will have separated yourself from His love for eternity.

no one person's truth is the absolute truth. One person's is: Jesus Christ. He spoke the truth. It's another question whether we accept his words.

You cannot determine if the things I believe are not the truth because you don't know everything I believe.If you don't believe that Jesus died on the cross to save you from your sins, and that God raised him from the dead, then what you believe is not the truth, regardless of what it is. It's that simple.

no one can prove that their truths are 'absolute', at least not to me.That may be so, and the sadder for you if so. I can, however, demonstrate that Jesus is the truth, in this way, which fits into this thread because it is miracle: I checked in with him, and I received a word that you are shackled by a spirit of pride.

First, I bind that spirit in the name of Jesus Christ, from whom I have authority to do so, and I say to it that it must be quiet. Praise be to Him for giving us his might for his cause!

Second, you are probably offended and insulted. That's understandable. I was also shackled by a spirit of pride, another of suicide, another of despair, another of sloth (laziness). It's not that uncommon, especially for those like me back then, and you currently, who try to hide from the reality of our failure to be what God intended. When I had received and acknowledged what I had been given by God, it all made sense. You have set yourself in God's place by claiming that you can determine what's true for you instead of acknowledging that God alone has that right. You are His creature, and not your own creator.

But, I do applaud your passion in your beliefs, and I know that they must be right for you.I'm a passionate guy, yes, but that's not what this is about. This isn't about me, nor about you, but about God having made the way, and the need for us willful humans to submit to His will so that we can be freed from the shackles of our own sin. You see, no one is really free, unless he is freed in Christ. What seems like freedom is actually a prison of our own sin and separation from God.

what if a person who has different beliefs wishes to hold tightly to their own beliefs?I would be surprised if it were not so. I'm not out to change your beliefs, but to speak out the reality. I hope you don't refuse to accept the reality.

No one should have the right to tell someone that their beliefs are wrong. Praise God that not only do we have the right, but Christ has actually commanded us to do so. We have a responsibility, one that I for too long have not obeyed.

As for my views about Jesus, since you brought him up, I will tell you how I feel about him. ... he never judged anyone...Actually he did. Of course, there are two meanings for the term "judge". The first is to discern; he did that with everyone. The other is to condemn; Jesus didn't even quite do that, although he gave a very, very harsh warning to the Pharisees and Saducees that if they kept in the way they were going, they would condemn themselves.

I believe that if I were to meet him on the street at any given moment, he would not reject me, as many churches have done, but rather would love me without condition, just as I believe God loves me without condition. Yes, he would love you without condition, but he would also say "Follow me". If you chose not to, as you currently do, he would still love you, even though you separate yourself from his love.

The biggest problem I have with religion is not the passion that people have about their beliefs, but about how people will often try to force their conditions on God, and thus believe that they possess the right to speak for Him/Her.This is a most interesting thing that you say, especially the part I've bolded. Do you look at how you are forcing your conditions on God, selecting from His revealed Word what you choose to accept, rejecting the rest? I've finally started doing humbling myself, at long last; I hope that you do the same. I thank God that He has had so much grace for one such as I who have frittered away so many years that I could have been faithful to Him and was not, out of my own pride. Try reading the Bible on its terms, asking God to show you what you couldn't see because of your own pride. You won't regret it.

[PunkMaister]

I sure do believe in miracles.
Not only have I witnessed people being healed at church but also about a month ago I inexplicably and miracoulsy escaped from being run over by an SUV while returning on my bike from work. I say inexplicably because the vehicle was going to hit me for sure and the driver had applied the brakes way to late to make any difference but as I was bracing for what seemed the inevitable impact and quite probably the last thing I would see in my life the SUV jerked somehow to the side and slowed down enough so that it only hit the rear of my bike and neither me, nor the bike suffered any damage (well save having my heart in my throat at the time off-course)

[Saruman]

God is so good. Whether hit by an SUV or not, He has purposes to be accomplished. This is another reason to glorify His wonderful, holy and precious Name! I rejoice with you, PM.

[littlemanpoet]

Well, it seems my membership on this board has not been jeapordized by my rather bold post above. Whew! Thanks, Administrator. :p

I inexplicably and miracoulsy escaped from being run over by an SUV...Thanks for sharing this, Punkmaister! God bless His awesome plans for you!

[Jood]

OK, look I know you can almost do what you want on here but not quite. But please folkys stop debating. AHHHHHH it almost gives me a headache reading my OWN thread. Please read the following;
Pr 10:19 ¶ In the multitude of words sin is not lacking, But he who restrains his lips is wise.
(NKJV)
My Dad pointed out something to me. Are we to preach the gospel? Well of course YES! Are we to go around saying "I believe this, and I believe that,"blah blah blah, and debating? NO! My aouthority? Jesus Christ our example (after all Christian means little Christ) NEVER ONCE SAID "I BELIEVE"!!!!!

[WillsGirl]

I believe in miracles too.

Here is one I expirianced when my brother and I were younger...
We were playing around in a big arm chair, he was sitting in it and I was leaning over the back and making it lean back as well. (He was laughing.) All of a sudden I lossed my footing and fell completely back into the huge glass desplay case behind us.
Somehow my little brother and I both ended up in the hall next to the room without a scratch but my back was what broke the display case and there were huge shards of glass in the chair where my brother's neck had been.
I never felt a thing even though the impact of my back shattered the glass behind us.
My mom cut herself cleaning it up but neither one of us kids got hurt at all!

Here's another instance. I was younger so I don't remember that much but I was swimming and something was holding me under water. I was totally freaking out and very quickly running out of air. Finally I just inahiled UNDER the water and recieved a FULL breath of air and my Dad pulled me out a little bit later.
How do you explain breathing under water?

So this is my view on the subject. I have enjoyed reading most of this thread and I hope my post was helpful!

[EveningStar]

During World War II (Ironically the time setting of LWW) my Uncle Clarence was a tail gunner in a USAAF bomber in the European theater. My grandmother was wakened one morning by something very strange...she felt hair drape across her face. When she looked up, it was her sister Ursula bent down over her. Would it sound too weird if I told you Ursula had died the year before? But there she was.

Grandmother, as soon as she got her wits about her, ran into the kitchen. When mom came down to get breakfast there stood her mother looking very upset. "I saw Ursi," she said. Mom, of course, thought she might have dreamed it. But no. "She was just as real as you and I. And she told me I would get a telegram from the War Department today that Clarence was killed in a crash, but that he's ok and not to worry."

The telegram arrived before breakfast was finished. She read it, set it aside, and never mentioned it again.

One month later another telegram came. A sympathetic Italian family had hid him after his crash and smuggled him through the Underground to a US field hospital.

He came home from the war with a metal plate in his forehead and a pin in his ankle, but very much alive.

Clarence died four years ago, and I had the honor of preaching at his funeral.

Do I believe in life after death? Are you KIDDING? I don't wish this life away, but I don't fear transitions, and that includes my passage from this life.

John Morgan, the man I was named John for, was very close to us and one of the kindest people I know. He was also one of the hardest working, headmaster of a military school for boys.

Well he went to the doctor with tiredness, aches and pains. The doctor told his WIFE that he was going to die, but she advised the doctor not to tell "Mister John" because he was a workaholic and would literally work till he dropped clearing away the loose ends. So on the way home, he looked out the window and said, slowly and deliberately, "I'm going to die. Why did you try to hide it from me?"

"What gave you that idea?"

"A sign from God. See those sheep on the hill? All white but one of them...a black sheep. It means I'm going to die."

Now, mind you, there were NO sheep on the hill.

So John did, in fact, work right up to the end. And when he was dying, we were all invited in to say our farewells. He was one of the lucky ones that didn't have to die in a hospital room. So as we stood about the bed, he lapsed, breathed out, and the heart monitor stopped. They marked the time of death.

TWO minutes later, with no CPR, the monitor started again. Imagine this happening today, yeah, but when I was a kid....I'm 46 so you know...and he sat up in the bed. "I have something I must do," he said, ever so much like Colombo saying, "Oh just one more thing..." He got up, painfully left the bed, walked out the front door and stood in the courtyard. "I felt my spirit leave my body," he told us. "I was going into the light. I told God that if I could finish this one last thing I could go home with a clear mind. So, dadgone it, I want you to promise me you'll put a water fountain here for the boys. They need a water fountain." With that he went back inside, to bed, and died. Quite fully died, no recourse.

After the funeral when we came home, we saw a figure sitting in the dimly lit corner of the living room. It was him. He had a very strange monogrammed handkerchief in his pocket and a very sad look on his face. "Tell Howard he will follow me," he said, then vanished.

In a panic we called his wife, who dismissed the whole thing as a mere wish fulfillment fantasy. Till she heard about the handkerchief with G W on it. "Oh dear God..."

Seems that right as she stood alone with George Wilson by the casket about to close the lid for the funeral procession, he said, "I've never seen Mister John without a handkerchief," and put his hankie in the breast pocket of his suit.

About that prophesy, I got my first name from Mister John. I got my middle name, Howard, from dad. One month later Dad was diagnosed with terminal cancer.

Do I believe in life after death? Are you KIDDING??

Life is a miracle. Life after death is a miracle. The love in a kitten's eyes, the Blush of summer roses is a miracle. So many miracles that we tune them out and call it "ordinary".

Like Aslan, I know that death itself starts working backwards. I am not morbid, nor do I long to die. Yet I do not fear that this body of mine will someday die.

I took a risk telling you this. I exposed myself to possible ridicule. But I believe that if God can use it in one reader's life, I not only should say it but must. Don't be afraid, you are in good hands.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Those are fascinating stories, Chakal, and I, for one, would not think of ridiculing them. It is the rationalist materialists who do not believe in such things, not Christians like myself. Of course, the mandate to us is to always focus on the center of all truth, and lest such incidents fall where they may. I have heard far too many such stories, most of them with the unmistakable ring of truth to them, to scoff at such things.

[Flamazon]

littlemanpoet, in regards to your "rather bold" comment I must say that I have mixed emotions. I like you, am a strong believer in God. However, I felt that in your post although you were telling the truth according to us Christians, you were also (in a way) trying to convert that man. He may not be inclined to believe at this moment and there are many like him. Are they bad people, no. Do they still have a chance to become believers? Yes. I personally believe that we shouldn't preach to them about our gospel or anything else unless they specifically ask us to. It is just something that they will have to figure out on their own, when they're ready. To try and "force them" or just kindly give them God's word will, I'm afraid, only drive them further from Him. I myself have given all this much thought. While I never actually denied God, I did find myself questioning a lot of things all the time, even now. I don't like people preaching to me, being stubborn only made me doubt even more when I felt forced into believing a religious point of view. I like figuring things out for myself, thinking thouroughly and logically about it and with time, eventually understand God (as much as a mere human can anyway). So I guess what I'm trying to say is that while I know you were trying to help by speaking to him about how God is real and such, maybe you should try to not act so all-knowing next time. I don't mean to offend but some people really don't appreciate being lectured to. Peace.

[Queen Swanwhite]

i believe in miracles. here's one, this guy from my church had a major stroke one sunday morning and he was rushed to hospital. He couldn't see or move and he was dying. He then went to Toronto. (A long way from where we live). He had a cast on his leg, he couldn't walk, but as the sermon was going on he all of a sudden could walk, and he didn't need the cast anymore!! That's a miracle because he would have died. :)

[TexanRose]

i had a miracle that no doctor could any arguements PM me
When my birth mom was pregnant she fell of a 20 ft ladder on her stomach and all I have is a length prob on one leg better than death or mental limitability

[littlemanpoet]

littlemanpoet, in regards to your "rather bold" comment I must say that I have mixed emotions.As do I. I must confess to one hidden objective: I don't want to see this forum hijacked by universalist, pluralist, atheist "you mayn't speak of Christ here" kinds of attitudes. I've seen that happen elsewhere. I'm not the administrator, so I have no right to force the issue.

I'll never apologize for speaking the truth, though. I do apologize for speaking the truth not in love and without grace. But yes, I do try to do all in my power to lead someone to conversion. If the gospel of Christ is the truth, and the only truth, as Jesus himself says, the most loving thing to do is my utmost to help another discover the truth, if only to plant a seed or water it.

To try and "force them" or just kindly give them God's word will, I'm afraid, only drive them further from Him.I don't have that kind of power. If speaking the truth drives someone further from the truth, the hearer wasn't willing anyway. Far be it from me not to speak the truth; as if it is better to spare someone's feelings rather than their eternal souls.

[Gibby]

I don't have that kind of power. If speaking the truth drives someone further from the truth, the hearer wasn't willing anyway. Far be it from me not to speak the truth; as if it is better to spare someone's feelings rather than their eternal souls.

I agree with you littlemanpoet...

There is power in God's Word, though. Our responsibility is to spread it. God will do the rest. His Word ultimately gives us a choice; for Christ or against Christ, that's it, no fence riding. That is why it is so un-digestable to so many; like fingernails on a chalkboard. But there is also power in that choice when we choose life in Christ.

[Flamazon]

It really pains me to even keep arguing about this since it's so illogical to do so! And I apologize if I somehow am offending you with all this talk. I know that everyone is free to state their opinions and beliefs, even if they are religious, but to try and "convert" people?! For heaven's sake! I who am a devout Catholic do indeed feel it's like "fingernails on a chalkboard" when people tell other people what to believe. What makes you think that they will listen to you? Sure, it might work and that would be great, but they don't want to be preached at and pressured into something. Don't you trust Jesus? Don't you think that God himself would appear before them and speak to them and that then they would believe? Have faith in them and in God that someday when the time is right they'll come to understand the "truth" if they are meant to. Trying to force your views on other people and the "I'm right you're wrong" attitude is historically, what has led this world to destruction, war and pain. Learn from the past and don't repeat the same mistakes. Let people be what they want to be, because knowing God's omnipotence and habit of putting everything in its proper place, whatever will be shall be.

[Flamazon]

I agree with you littlemanpoet...

There is power in God's Word, though. Our responsibility is to spread it. God will do the rest. His Word ultimately gives us a choice; for Christ or against Christ, that's it, no fence riding. That is why it is so un-digestable to so many; like fingernails on a chalkboard. But there is also power in that choice when we choose life in Christ.

It is not our "responsibility" as you say it is to convert people or to "spead God's Word" as you oh so delicately put it. It is our responsibility to be kind to all, not judge them, to pray for those who do not believe in Him and to follow the Commandments. You also say that His Word gives us a choice. You're 100% correct. He does give us a choice, a choice that we as INDIVIDUALS must make. For if we are not ready to hear and understand His Word by ourselves, what use is there? No one can make us or sometimes even help us understand, it is something that we must want in our hearts for it happen.

[Queen Swanwhite]

God says in the bible, that we should tell people about God. Think, if you were standing in a room with everyone that you had got into heaven, (basically people that you have told about God and they became a christian) would you be standing alone? :confused:

[PrinceOfTheWest]

It is not our "responsibility" as you say it is to convert people or to "spead God's Word" as you oh so delicately put it. It is our responsibility to be kind to all, not judge them, to pray for those who do not believe in Him and to follow the Commandments. Flamazon, speaking as a Catholic I can assure you that it is indeed our responsibility to spread God's Word as Christians. Christ's command is inescapable: "And he said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:15,16) The responsibility for this lies, to some degree, on all of us. Some, such as priests and religious, may be called to a more explicit path, but we are all called to do it.

Your objection seems to be confusing two issues which it is important to keep separate. It is true that for many of us, spreading the Gospel is primarily done by the manner in which we live our lives. As St. Francis put it in the famous story, "preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." Our speech, our manners, dealing with one another in kindness and courtesy: these are all aspects of spreading the Gospel by our lives - and a very vital (and difficult) aspect it is.

But where you seem to be confusing matters is when you say "It is our responsibility to be kind to all, not judge them...", you seem to be lapsing into the common cultural confusion about what "judgement" is. We are not to judge God's disposition of people's hearts; but we are to judge actions as being in accordance with God's will or not. ("Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment." John 7:24) We are also to warn others when their actions endanger them, not out of a spirit of being able to tell them "I'm right and you're wrong", but out of compassion and love for them. Sinning is the spiritual equivalent of drinking kerosene - it destroys our lives here on earth and it runs the risk of damning our souls for all eternity. If you saw someone, even a total stranger, lifting a cup of what you knew to be kerosene to his lips, would you not do something? You're right that we as individuals must ultimately make a choice, but if Christians do not tell others of the choice of Christ, where are they going to get the information? From newspapers and television shows? Not everyone has the benefit of the Scriptures and the Sacraments every Sunday, as you and I do. For my part, I'm very glad for my parents, the priests and friends in my life, and even my fundamentalist high school friends who used to pray for my soul and urge me to "accept Jesus as my personal savior". They were all giving me the same message, and I'm glad they loved me enough to do it.

[Gibby]

It is not our "responsibility" as you say it is to convert people or to "spead God's Word" as you oh so delicately put it. It is our responsibility to be kind to all, not judge them, to pray for those who do not believe in Him and to follow the Commandments. You also say that His Word gives us a choice. You're 100% correct. He does give us a choice, a choice that we as INDIVIDUALS must make. For if we are not ready to hear and understand His Word by ourselves, what use is there? No one can make us or sometimes even help us understand, it is something that we must want in our hearts for it happen.[/FONT]

I agree with you Flamazon, we need to be kind to all and pray for them. But, we as believers, who are tapped into the river of life, need to lead others to that river, not just bring them spoonfulls. That is not going to save them. We can all continue to feed the poor, but why not try to show them how to feed themselves in the process? Then they can learn how to feed the poor themselves and in turn show them how to train the remaining poor to feed more poor. See where I am going?


"spreading" God's word does not mean "shoving down people's throats". It means "sharing", not "pushing". Jesus commanded us to tell others about him (Matthew 28:19). I certainally don't throw pearls to pigs, but I share the good news with people all the time. If they reject it, fine, I'll pray for them. I would not be saved if someone had not shared with me the gospel of Christ. We are the body of Christ; He is the head. Heads don't move without bodies. Have you ever seen a brain floating down the street performing tasks, walking, carrying someone's groceries?

[Flamazon]

*sigh* I know what you're all saying and it's all according to the Bible. But I'm sorry perhaps I'm too practical for these types of religious matters but how do you propose "spreading the word" exactly? I want specifics. And while I also believe in our faith because well, I have faith, I also need to have proof that our truth is the only one and the only way to Him. And don't post something like, "It's in the Bible!". I need facts. I need to see something that will tell me that people who do not specifically believe in a man named Jesus will go to hell. I've given all this so much thought and what if He just has several different names? I mean what about people of other religions such as Muslims? Are they going to hell just because they think of Jesus as a prophet? They still have the same God *in my opinion* though they call him Allah and share the same core beliefs that we do, don't they? You've got me thinking so much that I feel my head is going to explode. I suppose I think of this spreading the Gospel similar to when Jehova's witnesses come to my door and try to convert me to their religion. I didn't ask for it, I'm not interested, so I don't wanna hear it and I'm at peace with my current belief system. I'm also not saying that everyone can be saved obviously. True Atheists who do not acknowledge any sort of superior creator will probably not make it nor will sinners who never repent. *shrugs* But who cares? It's just my humble opinion. I just can't wait until I die to find out what really happens! Otherwise...I won't believe until I see proof.

[inkspot]

*sigh* I know what you're all saying and it's all according to the Bible. But I'm sorry perhaps I'm too practical for these types of religious matters but how do you propose "spreading the word" exactly? I want specifics.
How the apostles did it was to preach. You will find this ministry beginning on the day of Pentecost and continuing throughout the New Testament. Also, the apostles wrote letters, so writing is a valid way to do it -- as you see throughout the New Testament. Jesus sent 70 disciples out to share the word with no money and just one set of clothes -- they were to (horrors!) knock on doors and not only share the word, but ask to stay with the people whose house they visited while they went out every day and knocked on doors all over town. He said if no one received them, they were to shake even the dust of that town off their feet! Then of course, the First Century church carried their faith with them as they were chased out of town after town, and they shared it with everyone they met, by talking about it. These are some specific ways to share the faith. You may not be comfortable pursuing any or all of these ways, but Jesus said that our testimony would bring us persecution and tribulation, not comfort.

And while I also believe in our faith because well, I have faith, I also need to have proof that our truth is the only one and the only way to Him. And don't post something like, "It's in the Bible!". I need facts. I need to see something that will tell me that people who do not specifically believe in a man named Jesus will go to hell.
If you will not accept "It's in the Bible" as proof that Christ is the way the truth and the life, and that no man comes to the Father except through Christ, then there is no proof. In one of Jesus' stories, He said that even if someone were to return from the dead, cynics still would not believe. God is not in the business of giving us "proof." He wants us to have faith. If there were proof, then no one would have any choice in the matter really, they would have to believe. Thomas wanted proof that Jesus was really Jesus after the resurrection -- Jesus told him he believed because he saw the living proof, but blessed would be those who believed without proof. Amen!

I've given all this so much thought and what if He just has several different names? I mean what about people of other religions such as Muslims? Are they going to hell just because they think of Jesus as a prophet? They still have the same God *in my opinion* though they call him Allah and share the same core beliefs that we do, don't they?
This is the saddest opinion of all to me, for the sake of Jesus. If we could be given eternal life with God by believing on any old God, then why, oh, why, did the Father allow His Son to come here and die in pain and humiliation on the cross? What was the whole point of the crucifixion, if we could have instead believed on Allaha, or Buddha or Mithra or whatever? If there were another way to eternal life with God, then God was a horrible person to let Jesus die in vain. This cannot be. I know you don't believe something just because the Bible says it, but surely you can sense that a loving Father would never send His Son to certain death if there were any other way to save fallen humanity?

As for Muslims sharing our same "core beliefs," only Christians share the foundational beliefs of Christianity, namely: that Jesus was the Son of God who lived a sinless life and died on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, that He was raised from the dead on the third day and later ascended to heaven, and that salvation comes only through repentance and acceptance of Christ as Lord. These are the "core beliefs" of Christianity, and Muslims do not accept them.

True Atheists who do not acknowledge any sort of superior creator will probably not make it nor will sinners who never repent. *shrugs* But who cares?
Of course, God cares! He cares passionately for all the lost, so much that He sent Christ to die for us, and then Christ asked us to tell all the lost people of His great love ... Jesus cares. But may I ask, on what do you base your idea that religious people (of any faith) will go to heaven, but atheists will not, and un-repentant sinners will not? Since you have asked us not to claim something is so because the Bible says it is so, I am curious where you get this judgment?

[Gibby]

*sigh* I know what you're all saying and it's all according to the Bible. But I'm sorry perhaps I'm too practical for these types of religious matters but how do you propose "spreading the word" exactly? I want specifics. And while I also believe in our faith because well, I have faith, I also need to have proof that our truth is the only one and the only way to Him. And don't post something like, "It's in the Bible!". I need facts. I need to see something that will tell me that people who do not specifically believe in a man named Jesus will go to hell. I've given all this so much thought and what if He just has several different names? I mean what about people of other religions such as Muslims? Are they going to hell just because they think of Jesus as a prophet? They still have the same God *in my opinion* though they call him Allah and share the same core beliefs that we do, don't they? You've got me thinking so much that I feel my head is going to explode. I suppose I think of this spreading the Gospel similar to when Jehova's witnesses come to my door and try to convert me to their religion. I didn't ask for it, I'm not interested, so I don't wanna hear it and I'm at peace with my current belief system. I'm also not saying that everyone can be saved obviously. True Atheists who do not acknowledge any sort of superior creator will probably not make it nor will sinners who never repent. *shrugs* But who cares? It's just my humble opinion. I just can't wait until I die to find out what really happens! Otherwise...I won't believe until I see proof.

We can try to convince you until we are blue in the face. You say that you have been thinking about it alot and formulating this belief system that you have in your mind. Life in Christ is a journey of seeking. Start doing the research. Do you get into heaven by grace or by works with these other religions? Don't think the bible is the Truth? Check it out for yourself. Start seeking Flamizon...


Matthew 7:7-8

Ask, Seek, Knock

7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

[Puzzle dear]

Yes they can happen, even when you least expect them. ;)

[Jood]

hahaha. don't you ever run out of things to say? ya'll have lots of thoughts don't ya?

[inkspot]

hahaha. don't you ever run out of things to say? ya'll have lots of thoughts don't ya?
You have no idea ...

[Flamazon]

We can try to convince you until we are blue in the face. You say that you have been thinking about it alot and formulating this belief system that you have in your mind. Life in Christ is a journey of seeking. Start doing the research. Do you get into heaven by grace or by works with these other religions? Don't think the bible is the Truth? Check it out for yourself. Start seeking Flamizon...


Matthew 7:7-8

Ask, Seek, Knock

7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.


Yes haha, I tend to think think and overthink absolutely everything! As far as answering your questions...you get into heaven by both grace and works? I really should research that though. And what worries me is that we are supposed to believe that everything in the Bible is the absolute truth but, don't other religions say that too? And didn't ancient religions say that too, and don't they all say they have miracles to prove it? So who's right?! :eek:

I love that Ask, Seek, Knock quote by the way it gives me a lot of hope. Oh but I just wish the door would open to me quickly so I could know the truth!!! :( Thanks for everything guys, hopefully you'll pray for me and everyone else who needs a little more than blind faith *bliss really*

[PrinceOfTheWest]

I love that Ask, Seek, Knock quote by the way it gives me a lot of hope. Oh but I just wish the door would open to me quickly so I could know the truth!!! :( Actually, that very restlessness and dissatisfaction is a sign that God is calling you to a deeper understanding and relationship with Him. If you're like many young Catholics (trust me, I remember), you're Catholic because your parents were. But there comes a time when you have to "own" your faith for yourself - that's what God is calling you to. For me, it came during a teen retreat in the spring of my senior year in high school. For you, it may be another avenue.

How to follow this call? Worship God regularly by attending Mass. Do this even if you do not "feel" like it is doing anything - grace often works without our emotions registering anything. Do not displease Him by sinning, because this kills the life of grace within you. Do good deeds, not because this earns you a way into heaven, but because it's imitating Jesus, and that helps grace to grow. Strive to learn more about your faith. Read the Bible, particularly the Gospels. If you find some part difficult, such as some of the intricate theology of St. Paul, leave it for now - you can come back to it. Read works that will help your spiritual growth, such as C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity or Peter Kreeft's Fundamentals of the Faith. Seek out people in your parish or elsewhere who have lived faithful lives of devotion and ask them for advice.

Don't worry about studying "religions". Study God, particularly Jesus. Choose your friends wisely. Cut back on television and spend more time reading and reflecting. Make some quiet time in your life, apart from constant talking and music. Try some of these steps and see if God doesn't meet you.

I will be praying for you!

Your brother in Christ

[Gibby]

Flamizon

Works is a result of faith. Saved by grace, not works... Faith without works is dead.

James 2:16-18
16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.


Amazing Grace...

Ephesians 2:8-10

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

[Jood]

This is so kewl. 9pgs and 4 star rating. Oh by the way, Gibby what type of bible do you qoute from? I can tell it's not NKJV? Or is it?
Inkspot, did I offend you? I'm sorry if I did. Flam what religon are you?

[Flamazon]

I'm Catholic-sort of- I also have a lot of issues with the actual institution, they're very patriarchal and out of touch with modern times and such. I'm not going to talk about that though...

PrinceoftheWest, I think you're right. I'm only 19 years old and I tend to ask a lot of "why?" questions about everything. I was raised Catholic from birth and being tradition in my family, I adopted it full-heartedly and with a lot of pride. However, at school they teach us to question everything and to analyze and take it apart and I suppose this is what I did to my faith, my religion and entire faith system. I mean, I believe in God alright, but I just wish that everyone who's essentially "good" would go to heaven regardless of their religion, you know what I mean? But yes, I have to come to terms with several things and it will have to be with God himself that I'll need to speak.

[Jay7]

Dont worry i wonder why all the time, though i guess its soemthing that we cannot understand, im sure we can trust God to make the right choice

[Gibby]

This is so kewl. 9pgs and 4 star rating. Oh by the way, Gibby what type of bible do you qoute from? I can tell it's not NKJV? Or is it?
Inkspot, did I offend you? I'm sorry if I did. Flam what religon are you?

Usually NIV but I do like NKJV very much. I just got one for Christmas and I plan to spend more time in it.http://www.narniafans.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Basilides]

Yes haha, I tend to think think and overthink absolutely everything! As far as answering your questions...you get into heaven by both grace and works? I really should research that though. And what worries me is that we are supposed to believe that everything in the Bible is the absolute truth but, don't other religions say that too? And didn't ancient religions say that too, and don't they all say they have miracles to prove it? So who's right?! :eek:

I love that Ask, Seek, Knock quote by the way it gives me a lot of hope. Oh but I just wish the door would open to me quickly so I could know the truth!!! :( Thanks for everything guys, hopefully you'll pray for me and everyone else who needs a little more than blind faith *bliss really*

As for the grace and works thing, one way to look at it is like this: You are justified in God's sight as a free gift through Jesus Christ. God's favor is unmerited, unearned by you. That's grace. Once justified, the fact that you actually received that gift is proven by your good works. Good works do not gain you entrance into heaven, but they are the evidence that you are going there.

As for the other religions thing, I urge you to consider one of C.S. Lewis' explanations that it is only logical that all religions are at least partly true...otherwise no one would believe any of them. But they cannot all be equally true, especially since on many issues they say different things - not just different ways of looking at the same thing - but wholly contradictory things. The key is to examine the points upon which they all agree and see where the clues lead.

And it is a most interesting thing: all religions, in one way or another, give some credit to Jesus of Nazareth. The Muslims call him a prophet, the hindus call Him one of many Christs, Taoists and Confucianists call Him a "wise teacher", Marxists call Him a people's revolutionary, Jews call Him a good moralist, and even atheists give Him credit for the social application of His principles. But Jesus Christ only gives credit to Himself as a way of salvation. "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father except by Me." are not the words of a prophet or "one of many" or a wise teacher or a revolutionary or a moralist or any kind of good person. They are the words either of a liar, a lunatic, or Someone who is who He says He is.

Think of Lucy Pevensie in the LWW. Her words were unbelievable about a country in the wardrobe. But the Professor explained that unless she was lying or a lunatic (and experience clearly showed she was neither) she ought to be believed. By the same standard, unless Jesus is a liar or a lunatic (and the whole of human opinion and all human religions clearly state He was neither) then He too ought to be believed.

It isn't confusing. Christianity isn't about proving all religions completely false...it is the "Original Story" that all the human religions have been trying to make out, with varying degrees of success. And to further verify its authenticity, it has the one key ingredient that human religions lack...the one thing that no mere religion ever considered as a way for people to be reconciled to God.

Lewis himself said it, "Why, it's grace, of course."

[littlemanpoet]

Flamazon, most of your questions have been answered most ably by others already. Yet your comments were directed to me, and I will try my best to answer what still needs answering.
...I know that everyone is free to state their opinions and beliefs, even if they are religious, but to try and "convert" people?! For heaven's sake! I who am a devout Catholic do indeed feel it's like "fingernails on a chalkboard" when people tell other people what to believe.
I can relate personally to the "fingernails on a chalkboard" feeling. I had the same feeling when someone came to an arts festival in my hometown, holding a sign saying that all who do not turn to Christ are condemned to hell. I found the whole approach to be quite offensive, and I was a fellow Christian! I found myself thinking, "I wonder what issues this guy has?" So was the guy wrong in his message? No. In his presentation? Not necessarily. In his condemnation? Not in detail; however, I had a sense that the message was being delivered out of spite rather than out of love. So I think the guy was wrong in spirit if not in truth. The distinction is important.

So what about my "bold post"? I know that I was not condemning Namaaste in my heart, nor in my post on this board. Was I as gracious as I could have been? Maybe not, but I did try to be. Did I have authority to say what I said on this board? I haven't been countermanded by the administrator. But more importantly, there was a spiritual battle going on. I was quite aware of it as soon as Namaaste began posting. He came onto the boards declaring a different "gospel"; mind you, it could have been anybody who did it, but it was him. I've seen this happen before on other forums. It changed the whole nature of the forum. I believed myself duty-bound and called to step forward and proclaim the truth of the gospel, on the thread, and not just in a private message. I wish that the false gospel hadn't been so tightly bound to Namaaste; he might still be here. That he hasn't posted in days, suggests to me that the truth defeated the lie.

Having said that, I'm aware that all of this spiritual battle talk may pain you; you may find it embarrassing. I used to, until I realized that dire seriousness of the situation: God loves every last human on the face of the earth, and wants with all His heart that every last one of them be saved. It's our duty to be those who speak His Word. Far be it from me to fail Him.

What makes you think that they will listen to you?I have no such guarantee. However, the spirits of pride and falsehood that came along with, WERE listening, and were forced into silence by the power of Christ's Word.
...they don't want to be preached at and pressured into something.I didn't either. I'm amazed at the gentleness with which Christ has led me into as much of His truth as I've been able to accept.
Don't you trust Jesus?Yes, I do. That's why I don't have the heart to disobey His command to spread the Word of the gospel.
Don't you think that God himself would appear before them and speak to them and that then they would believe?
As you know, God did, in the person of Christ. Since He has gone to heaven, He has commanded us to speak His Word.

Have faith in them...Heh. :) William Golding, who is not known to have been a believer, said shortly after World War 2, "I must say that anyone who passed through those years without understanding that man produces evil as a bee produces honey, must have been blind or wrong in the head." (from Hot Gates, p. 87) As you know from Catholic teaching, humans are fallen and need to be saved from sin and death. The evidence is not only to be found in the Bible, but in everyday life.

someday when the time is right they'll come to understand the "truth" if they are meant to.The time is right now. Everyone is meant to understand the truth. God loves everyone and wants to save everyone. Some refused to be saved.

Trying to force your views on other people and the "I'm right you're wrong" attitude is historically, what has led this world to destruction, war and pain.
I'm not forcing anyone to read what I write. And it's not about me being right. It's about the truth, which has the power to change hearts. If you and I had talked just a few years ago, you would have found that my opinions lined up pretty much the same as yours, because I think what's at the back of your opinions is a gentle heart full of compassion. Don't let that ever be changed! But I've learned that God's gentle heart, full of compassion, demands that I speak the truth and discern as wisely as He has given me the ability to.

Learn from the past and don't repeat the same mistakes. Let people be what they want to be, because knowing God's omnipotence and habit of putting everything in its proper place, whatever will be shall be.
Believe you me, I don't care to repeat the mistakes of the past, having been a victim of them all too often myself. But God has set up the Church to be His hand and face in the world. So it's up to us to put everything in its proper place, even though we're very likely to screw it up at least half-way. Which, of course, makes His grace all that much more evident, as He smooths out all our screw-ups. Better to err by having stepped out in faith than to err by not having tried at all.

Edit: Oh, and regarding "whatever will be shall be" (thanks for the good grammar there, I like that): this sounds not so much like God's sovereignty as a kind of paralyzing fatalism that the enemies of God like to see Christians bound up in. Read C.S. Lewis's The Screwtape Letters some time. I think you'll find it very enlightening.

[inkspot]

This is so kewl. 9pgs and 4 star rating. Oh by the way, Gibby what type of bible do you qoute from? I can tell it's not NKJV? Or is it?
Inkspot, did I offend you? I'm sorry if I did. Flam what religon are you?
LOL, not at all -- I was being funny.
Welcome back Basilides -- haven't seen you in a while.
Oh, happy new year, to all!
Flamazon, you are in my prayers! If you are investigating faith and Christ's claims, I suggest "The Case for Christ," a book by Lee Strobel, and "Rumors of Another World" and "What's so Amazing about Grace?" both by Philip Yancey.
Pax!

[PrinceOfTheWest]

I'm Catholic-sort of- I also have a lot of issues with the actual institution, they're very patriarchal and out of touch with modern times and such. I'm not going to talk about that though...Good - at least for now. There's very much that you could say that you might regret later when you've learned more. Trust me when I say that you've been fed some good, solid lies on that matter that it takes a lot of "unlearning" to get clear of. But it can be left for now.

PrinceoftheWest, I think you're right. I'm only 19 years old and I tend to ask a lot of "why?" questions about everything. I was raised Catholic from birth and being tradition in my family, I adopted it full-heartedly and with a lot of pride. However, at school they teach us to question everything and to analyze and take it apart and I suppose this is what I did to my faith, my religion and entire faith system. This is very much the modern mindset - all destruction, no construction. I'm reminded of the story of a college professor in the '60s who walked into his classroom to see that one of the students had scrawled across the board "QUESTION AUTHORITY". Glancing out across the room full of students, he picked up the chalk and scrawled beneath it, "If Authority answers, will you listen?" That story is one you should keep in mind when somebody tells you to question everything: what are they offering for answers?

One thing to keep in mind with all this questioning and dissecting: the modern attitude is very man-centered. The presumption is that if a "religion" is telling you to do something, then that means some men somewhere are using that religion to sway your opinions or influence your attitudes. They presume this because this is what they are doing: secularism is a religion, and it gains power as it gains adherents.

But what if there is a God? What if He has actually reached down to help us, told us certain truths, and done various things? Then you can't just view that as one opinion among many offered by men. You have to give it greater weight, because it's from God Himself.

That's one reason I strongly recommend Lewis' Mere Christianity - he takes you from the basis of everyday experience and the wisdom of millenia of human experience to explore the claims of Christ. It's very readable - in fact, I was just your age when I first read it, and I devoured it several times because it was so packed with truth.

I mean, I believe in God alright, but I just wish that everyone who's essentially "good" would go to heaven regardless of their religion, you know what I mean? But yes, I have to come to terms with several things and it will have to be with God himself that I'll need to speak.

I'm tempted to want to answer this, but I'll just underscore my recommendation that you read Mere Christianity. You'll find it addresses this issue quite well.

[Flamazon]

And it is a most interesting thing: all religions, in one way or another, give some credit to Jesus of Nazareth. The Muslims call him a prophet, the hindus call Him one of many Christs, Taoists and Confucianists call Him a "wise teacher", Marxists call Him a people's revolutionary, Jews call Him a good moralist, and even atheists give Him credit for the social application of His principles. But Jesus Christ only gives credit to Himself as a way of salvation. "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father except by Me." are not the words of a prophet or "one of many" or a wise teacher or a revolutionary or a moralist or any kind of good person. They are the words either of a liar, a lunatic, or Someone who is who He says He is.

Think of Lucy Pevensie in the LWW. Her words were unbelievable about a country in the wardrobe. But the Professor explained that unless she was lying or a lunatic (and experience clearly showed she was neither) she ought to be believed. By the same standard, unless Jesus is a liar or a lunatic (and the whole of human opinion and all human religions clearly state He was neither) then He too ought to be believed.

Yes, the way you explain it makes a LOT of sense! It's nice and logical...just how I like it! :D

Oh, and regarding "whatever will be shall be" (thanks for the good grammar there, I like that): this sounds not so much like God's sovereignty as a kind of paralyzing fatalism that the enemies of God like to see Christians bound up in. Read C.S. Lewis's The Screwtape Letters some time. I think you'll find it very enlightening.

Thanks for complementing my grammar, I definitely try! I'm actually going to be an English/Math teacher. :) And I will definitely read! Thanks.
Flamazon, you are in my prayers! If you are investigating faith and Christ's claims, I suggest "The Case for Christ," a book by Lee Strobel, and "Rumors of Another World" and "What's so Amazing about Grace?" both by Philip Yancey.
Pax!

Inkspot, thanks for keeping me in your prayers, I shall do the same for you! Also, thank you for suggesting reading those books, I'll find the time to do so!

PrinceoftheWest I can tell you really really wanted to refute those statements/questions! I knew it would be best not to go into the Catholic issues for now which is why I chose not to. It would just open up another can of worms! Still, I thank you all for the books you've suggested that I read. Once I'm finished with those and if I still have questions (after or along the way I s'pose) I'm guessing you wouldn't mind helping me with that? Great then! I'll start reading them as soon as I can get them! Since my birthday is in less than two weeks I'll tell all my family what books I'll want heheheh *grins*

[mccall454]

I love how you explained that about Lucy and the wardrobe and stuff. I liked that too.

[narniarox]

i have seen so many miracles happen! at my old church a man was said to have a major blockage in his heart. he went down to the hospital a couple of times to have it confirmed. he went back for the final check before the operation and before that my dad and various people from the church had layed hands on him and prayed that God would help him, one of those people was me, when we prayed people were crying and more than one person felt this power and undiscribable love. well the man went back to the hospital and the blockage was gone as if it had never been there, but it had.
there are more healings than physical, i was a very hurt and angry person two years ago, i felt this terrible and overwhelming hopelessness and i came very close to suicide. things at home kept getting worse until my mom went on something called an Emmaus walk, at the surprise candle light service i started bawling in the middle of a song and i felt God's presence, i accepted jesus into my heart during the song, Jesus my Lord.

these were the MAIN factors that brought me to Christ:
1. the chronicles of narnia
2. the rock band DC Talk
3. my church's youth group

[inkspot]

Thanks for sharing that, narniarox! I have heard of Road to Emmaus. That's cool.

Flamazon, that's a lot of reading! Good luck! The main thing to remember is that Jesus loves you, and following Him means a llife of joy as He expresses Himself through you and gives you grace moment by moment.

Blessings!

[lionessofgod]

Oh wow, narniarox! That's a really awesome message! Narnia has also brought me closer to God, because I was really never a good Christian, but the CoN helped me get better, and now I am a pretty awesome Christian. I enjoyed reading your message, and it made me feel a connection right here. Thanks!

[Flamazon]

Thanks for sharing that, narniarox! I have heard of Road to Emmaus. That's cool.

Flamazon, that's a lot of reading! Good luck! The main thing to remember is that Jesus loves you, and following Him means a llife of joy as He expresses Himself through you and gives you grace moment by moment.

Blessings!

Thanks! I know it's a lot of reading but that's what makes me so excited! I love to read! I already ordered a book that's a compilation of like 5 (or so) works by C.S. Lewis from Amazon.com. Not too sure what the title is but it's something like the Complete C.S. Lewis Signature Classics. You guys might want to look into that. :)

[Basilides]

Narnianox, when you wrote about feeling God's presence in the middle of a song, the memories came rushing back to me about when I felt His presence for the first time...the saving time...alone in my room in the wee hours after my birthday. It was a miracle all right. I was sitting there ready to plunge a knife into my chest. He saved me, literally.

Your experience was so awesome that it brought back mine. Thank you.

[Basilides]

Thanks! I know it's a lot of reading but that's what makes me so excited! I love to read! I already ordered a book that's a compilation of like 5 (or so) works by C.S. Lewis from Amazon.com. Not too sure what the title is but it's something like the Complete C.S. Lewis Signature Classics. You guys might want to look into that.

Read Mere Christianity first. Then the Problem of Pain. If they include "Miracles" in the set, you may want to fasten your seatbelt for that one.

[Flamazon]

Ok thanks for the suggestions! And yes, it does include Miracles. :)

[Aslan's Beloved Daughter]

Wow, Basilides, that is an awesome story that you shared. Thank you for sharing it. That was so cool, lol

[Stina]

Thank God miracles do happen!!!!
My dad was in a fatal car accident almost 10 years ago, he was the only one who survived! The doctors told us he wouldn't live though the night, that he would be a vegetable the rest of his life, he wouldn't be able to communicate, he would stay in a wheel chair the rest of his life!
I am proud to report he can talk, he lives at home, he has a sense a humour!
Jesus reigns forever!!

[killer_dwarf]

ive only just dropped in here but i would like to say i have witnessed hundreds of miracles - anyone from the US heard of ryan wyatt by the way?

[Flamazon]

ive only just dropped in here but i would like to say i have witnessed hundreds of miracles - anyone from the US heard of ryan wyatt by the way?

Nope, who is he?

[Gryphon]

1. yes, if God did several miracles in the bible and God doesn't change, hes the same yesterday today and forever, to say he CANT do a miracle or that he WONT is against scripture.

2. yes, i've known and met several people who have been miraculously healed. There is a ministry in Georgia that talks and teaches what spirits cause which physical ailment (and this has been proven scientifically true as well) They deal with the spirits and people get healed. I've seen demons come out of people. It's way freaky but i've seen it happen.

[Ciwhat]

yup i defently belive Miracles happen but i believe that only god can do them :). also he'll do them in his time not mine (which somtimes stinks lol). anyways any christains out there cuz i need prayar. the reason, i'm not aloud to say but just please pray for me :) :)

[underthefryingpan]

one time i was at mass. in the middle of consecration, when fr. had the host raised in the air, an old woman got up and said "fr. justinian STOP!" he did stop, and his eyes got really big as she continued, " you all know that i've been blind for so long(i don't remember the number of years), and just now i can see!"

that really happened.

and once when we were small kids, we went swimming in a sort of creek/stream. my little bro was about 3 or 4 then, and he had this swim suit that had a floatation device attatched to it. mom let this teenager nearby hold him for a min, and when she turned around he was floating downstream really fast. a man out of nowhere bound after him and caught him just in time. mom said she was convinced it was an angel.

my sister's ex bf tried to kill himself and now he's in the hospital. he can't go home till his mom gets him a feeding tube at home. now that costs money and they don't have much. this lady at the hospital was sitting there listening to debbie (his mom) talk to her dad about it all. when debbie got off the phone this lady came over and said "i've been looking for a place to give my tithe this month. can i give it to you?" then she gave debbie a $500 check!

that happened just this week.

yes i believe in miracles, and also i agree with you ciwat, its totally all from God and it comes when he wants it to. but he loves us so much! he always provides!

[Nosferatu]

1. yes, if God did several miracles in the bible and God doesn't change, hes the same yesterday today and forever, to say he CANT do a miracle or that he WONT is against scripture.

2. yes, i've known and met several people who have been miraculously healed. There is a ministry in Georgia that talks and teaches what spirits cause which physical ailment (and this has been proven scientifically true as well) They deal with the spirits and people get healed. I've seen demons come out of people. It's way freaky but i've seen it happen.

Gryphon even though God is never-changing that does not mean that he is on a "cycle." to say that God is never-changing does not mean that he does the exact same things time and time again, but rather that he is truth his word is truth and he will always be truth.

The next question that needs to be asked is what is the definition of a miracle.

Again not meaning by any way to offend anyone here :)!

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Well, you're not offending me by anything you say.

However... about your user name... I mean, really - "Nosferatu"? Not to seem stickish about such things, but is that quite - er - appropriate?

[inkspot]

Vampires are big these days!

Dictionary dot com says a Miracle:
An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God: “Miracles are spontaneous, they cannot be summoned, but come of themselves” (Katherine Anne Porter).

[Gryphon]

Gryphon even though God is never-changing that does not mean that he is on a "cycle." to say that God is never-changing does not mean that he does the exact same things time and time again, but rather that he is truth his word is truth and he will always be truth.

The next question that needs to be asked is what is the definition of a miracle.

Again not meaning by any way to offend anyone here :)!
I didnt say he was on a cycle, but to say that He wont do or cant do something through His people after he has already done it is obserd and against scripture. God is God and he can do whatever he pleases, if he wants to part the Red Sea again then he can, he's GOD! If he wants to use mirales or prophesy in people's lives then he CAN because he's GOD and is not limited to the rules some people (although not you nessesarily) set at him. God and his power is NOT in a box

[Nosferatu]

Well, you're not offending me by anything you say.

However... about your user name... I mean, really - "Nosferatu"? Not to seem stickish about such things, but is that quite - er - appropriate?


Ah well I really like the old vampire movies with Christopher lee and peter cushing (those are some of my favorite ones!), plus I really liked the old vampire silent film Nosferatu (managed to catch it on satalite). and Finaly I just thought the name sounded cool! (anyone here ever see the old hammer films [Thats the old ones without the Nudity and Sex])(Also In case you dont know Nosferatu is the german word for vampire.) This has been another useless fact :)

Gryphon.

I do not believe that God cannot do miracles, this is far from the Truth. Rather that ussually today miricles dont happen. many people who claim to have "Healing" powers are false. several years ago a study set by two christian brothers wanted to show the world about People being super-naturaly healed. But every single case of healing was rendered false/inconclusive. Now about the exercisisms.
I read an article somewhere (Maybe worldnetdaily.com) about "Exercisisms" and how some people can use a form of hypnosis to take control of the victim and make him/her feel like there under a influence of something supernatural.

Also the Bible says "Demons flee before the LORD." And since us Christians have the Lord within our hearts, demons cannot harm us, posses us, etc., because they have no power over us.

[inkspot]

I do not believe that God cannot do miracles, this is far from the Truth. Rather that ussually today miricles dont happen.
They never did usually happen, which is why we call them miracles instead of commonplace-icles. Miracles are rare, but they do happen.

[Smog]

^lol, yeah I think Inky is on the right track. Miracles were very rare in the Old Testament. They were a little more wide spread in the early Church, but were still not common. In the modern church, miracles can (and I believe do) happen, however I have never once wittnessed one first hand, and I doubt many others have either.

[Jood]

Oh Somg, i can tell you many story's of firsthand mircales!!! Wanna know them lemme know k?

[abbyluvswilliam]

Miracles definitely happen.......but not every time you pray for a Miracle will it happen....its all in Gods plan.

[tgraveline]

There is a lot that must be taken into account for miracles. Yes they can and do happen these days. I think in western society it does not happen as much as we rely more on science and Doctors these days rather than on God. Which does not mean we do not trust God to work through Doctors. But, it was in my college group last sunday that a miracle did happen. Also, if you read up on Third World Country pastors, you will find that in a lot of those places you cannot become a pastor unless you have raised someone from the dead. So yes, it does still happen and its a matter of having faith and truly believing God can do such a thing still. We are blessed and cursed for our technological revolution.

tg

[Desii noble knight of Narnia]

Mericles happen today, and have happend in the past. The only reason miricles are supposedly rare is because Gods people are not praying, we need a revival us Christians need to get on fire for God again.
Anyways about the miericles.... a baby was born 5 months prematurely and they though he would not make it and he almost didn't but we were really praying for him and he made it and he is really healthy and strong. Praise God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tweetsie]

I think miracles are real, and happen very often. It is all in your point of view. It might be a small miracle, or a big one, but they do happen. In seventh grade I was at a competition for reading, where you read a list of 40 or so books in a year, knew them inside out, and were asked questions. Our team was very behind, and in ninth place. In our last round before the finals started, we went up against a very bad team and they lost by a lot of points, but the rebound questions they gave us, put us in eigth place, into the finals. Once there, it was all uphill. We beat the team to get to the next round, and then the next round was the champion round, and we won by one point. I think this was one of those small miracles that aren't so important, but do make a difference in your life. There are other sorts of more significant miracles, people surviving car crashes, illnesses and other sorts of things. But little things that happen every day can be miracles to someone else.

[Mozart the Meerkitten]

Miracles happen. There is one I remeber happening to me when I was little. My cat Explorer ran away and I prayed and prayed for him to come back. My mom told me that everyone said that he wouldn't come back (I was in a Christian school then so we had prayer time where we would pray aloud so thats why people knew... and Sunday school too) but after a long time (don't know how long) Explorer came back. Yea not the most signifigant thing ever but it meant and still means alot to me. There have been other miracles in my life too but Explorer's story is the one I remeber the most.

[Copperfox]

My first wife, in her career as a nurse, witnessed people being divinely healed. The fact that God chose to call her home to Heaven by means of cancer did not invalidate those other cases.

[Glenburne]

When it comes to miracles, I think we need to remember that there is a difference between a miracle and Providence. A miracle occurs when God does something that normally cannot happen due to the laws of nature (i.e., parting a river, knocking down a sturdy city wall, making food appear out of nowhere). An act of Providence, on the other hand, just involves God sovereignly providing for people without doing something that sets aside the laws of nature. Most of the things people commonly call "miracles" aren't miracles in the strict sense, but are instead acts of Providence. That doesn't mean we should be less thankful for God's Providence than for God's doing the miraculous, but it does mean we need to make a distinction, for the sake of accuracy, between the type of miracles we see in Scripture and read of in church history, and the instances of God using created processes to accomplish His will.

For example, my baby brother nearly died as a result of his DPT vaccination. After several years of him getting progressively worse, and just before we would have had to put him on a feeding tube, we almost accidentally met a woman who knew a holistic doctor and chemist with experience in treating people who had reactions to vaccines. We took him to that doctor, and within days he began improving. My brother didn't have to be put on a feeding tube, and he started to regain some of the skills he had lost. Many people at our church called it a miracle. I agree that God was sovereignly involved in the timing--if we hadn't found out about the doctor then, my brother would likely have died, because the medical profession had no idea how to help him--and I praise Him for it. And God also created my brother's body so that it would respond to the medicines the doctor gave him, and He allowed the doctor to get the knowledge she possesses. But my brother still has health problems resulting from the vaccination; his healing wasn't immediate, and it isn't complete.

My brother's partial recovery is an act of Providence in more ways than one. I thank God that he's alive and able to enjoy being alive. But God didn't set aside any laws of nature to heal him; instead He used the natural processes He has already instituted. So my brother's partial recovery is not a miracle in the strict sense.

If "miracles" include situations in which the laws of nature are not set aside, then, as C. S. Lewis wrote, we have to be consistent and admit that all of life is a miracle. If my brother's partial recovery is a miracle, then it is a miracle every time someone gets over a cold or the flu, because the same bodily processes that the medicine went through to help my brother also are intended to help people with seemingly insignificant problems. If God is behind someone recovering from a life-threatening condition, isn't He behind it every time someone overcomes the most insignificant virus?

We need to either limit our use of the term "miracle" to when a law of nature is set aside--or acknowledge that the entire universe is one massive miracle.

[Copperfox]

Thank you, Glenburne. I often say that if everything is called a miracle, then the word "miracle" means nothing more than "any event that anyone finds pleasing." You are quite right in distinguishing "providence," which I sometimes call "the sub-miraculous."

[EveningStar]

Problem is, we don't know either God or Nature well enough to tell if one or both is responsible for a given phenomenon.

If you flip a coin, it has an even chance of landing heads up or tails up. Thing is, if God influences the flip, it would not be possible for us to be sure it didn't happen within the order of nature. What makes it a miracle isn't that it's an UNUSUAL phenomenon like a man walking on the Sea of Galilee but that ANY phenomenon that is subject to unusual influences.

[Copperfox]

Even without being able to classify each individual event in these terms, we can still be fairly sure in principle that such a distinction does exist. For instance, there have been many childbirths assisted by God's special intervention, but there has only ever been one Virgin Birth. So if we were to insist on calling EVERY childbirth equally a supernatural miracle, what would that leave for the Virgin Birth to be?

[Lexy]

I believe that miracles can happen/do though I thibk its most likely to happen when you least expect it to

[EveningStar]

The thing about reasoning why God does something or doesn't do anything is that we can't really fully understand him.

Like you, for instance. Yes, you reading this post. Who's the best actor who ever lived? Chances are you have an opinion, and chances are it will be someone famous. In fact, if you ask God, he probably thinks the greatest actor who ever lived was Wallace T. Finchley of Beaver Dam, Idaho, who never got discovered by either Broadway or Hollywood and died in a trench in World War I.

We try to understand him, but frankly there's just too much of him to wrap our minds around. But any God with the sophistication and taste to recognize that Wally was better than Errol Flynn or Humphrey Bogart deserves our trust. We pray for help. Let God decide in what form that help will come.

[inkspot]

In CS Lewis' Miracles, he says that miracles are merely God doing grandly what He does every day on a daily basis, in a way we don't notice. An instant healing from an illness is along the same lines as the way your body repairs itself after you've been injured, only it happens swiftly and repairs an illness rather than slowly and repairing an injury.

He says you won't find a miracle that contravenes what God has already established as the way things happen, the natural law. People don't, for instance, even as part of a miracle, turn into a frog -- because that never happens on any scale in nature. But even the grndest miracle of all, the resurrection, was God doing in a big bold way what He does already every spring with the renewing of life on the earth ...

[Lord of Light]

Problem is, we don't know either God or Nature well enough to tell if one or both is responsible for a given phenomenon.

If you flip a coin, it has an even chance of landing heads up or tails up. Thing is, if God influences the flip, it would not be possible for us to be sure it didn't happen within the order of nature. What makes it a miracle isn't that it's an UNUSUAL phenomenon like a man walking on the Sea of Galilee but that ANY phenomenon that is subject to unusual influences.

Umm...no offense...but that's not a good illustration....one can easily rig flipping a coin, and it'll always land with the same side up, and that's without changing the actual coin.

[shortangel]

yes i believe God can perform miracles but there are little miracles all around everyday :) like the plants growing, and babies & animals being born & things like that, i also believe that if it is God's will he can perform a miracle if he so chooses

[Lady Lasaraleen]

Miracles happen. There is one I remeber happening to me when I was little. My cat Explorer ran away and I prayed and prayed for him to come back. My mom told me that everyone said that he wouldn't come back (I was in a Christian school then so we had prayer time where we would pray aloud so thats why people knew... and Sunday school too) but after a long time (don't know how long) Explorer came back...

When i was nine a similar thing happened to family.My parents were missionaries in Africa. Two guard dogs came along with the house we rented, but they weren't ours they belonged to the landlord.
After a violent storm the wall of our garden was knocked down, needless to say one of them took off. She was a pure Alsatian, we hadn't the resources to pay our land lord for the missing dog. Also people ate dogs in that region:eek:
we prayed for the her to return and 3 days later she did!! that wasn't a small miracle for us :)


but I 've seen God do miracles up close and personal. not just healing, but of finances, weather and nature, supernatural protection.
Wow! just writing this has encouraged me and I've been fairly depressed lately:(

[EveningStar]

The fact that nothing around us in nature would have ever happened if God had not been a Creator means that everything from the way your hair grows to the four seasons changing is a miracle, even though there is a perfectly good scientific explanation how they work.

[Copperfox]

But if you define it that way, as I have said, the word "miracle" ceases to HAVE any meaning except "an event."

[Glenburne]

But if you define it that way, as I have said, the word "miracle" ceases to HAVE any meaning except "an event."

From God's perspective, that's what miracles (by popular definition) are anyway. Events that He is the Cause of. He's not amazed that He can walk on water! Miracles are only separate from acts of Providence from our point of view.

For us, being people, it's not necessarily a bad distinction to use, because in our eyes there is a definite difference between our ability to breathe and Christ's ability to heal the blind. God understands the fact that we see the two as being in separate categories. That's the human perspective, and it's completely legitimate. But, as Paul noted, it is God's unseen, direct intervention that keeps the universe going ("in him we live, and move, and have our being") so it is true that, in a certain sense, all of life is a miracle, because God is always supernaturally involved in holding the universe together. That's life from God's point of view--an equally legitimate perspective. Generally, though, the Bible--being copied down by and for humans--shows miracles from the human perspective.

[EveningStar]

Copperfox, you have to understand that I am not reducing the mystery or the role of the supernatural. Rather I am more keenly aware that natural and supernatural are neither enemies nor mutually exclusive. It is only in our human viewpoint, as Glenburne says, that we ignore the miracles that usually happen and pay special attention to the miracles that rarely happen.

What I think is our common ground, Joe, is that the very existance of nature is one layer of miracle. Sometimes there are two layers, when God affects the probability of an event that could go either way. Sometimes there are three layers when God causes something to happen that is not ordinarily an option...such as walking on water.