Animals and Heaven? [Archive] - The Dancing Lawn - Official Forums of Narnia Fans

echoscot

11-20-2006, 07:21 PM

Wow, this is a very touchy topic. Like we don't have any of those, right? Believe it or not, many denominations have vastly differing views on this. My own denomination believes that animals don't have souls and therefore cease to exist at death. I disagree with them on that point, and there are several scriptural reasons why. In Genesis, God makes clear under the covenant with Noah, that He intends to hold animals accountable for their actions. If they cease to exist, there is no point, also it implies, at least in my humble opinion, a certain amount of choice on the part of an animal in response to a God-given instinct. Also many scriptures relating to Heaven use animals in their descriptions. Some people feel that is purely allegorical, but I am not so sure. I believe God created life and his creative boundaries are not limited by human presumption.

Narborg

11-20-2006, 08:19 PM

I dont think that they do. The Bible makes it clrear that humans are created in the image of God and therefore have a speceal place in creation. True, the bible dose take about the lion reatig with the lamb, or someting to that efect ( I cant reamber exallly where or what it says, but Ill look it up), but I dnt thnak that we can conclued for thast that amimanls have souls which get into hevean.

Aravis Kenobi

11-20-2006, 08:21 PM

I'd like to think they do. If they make us happy here on earth, including God, then I think they would go to Heaven so that we'd have a "companion" of sorts. I don't know. I guess we'll find out when we get there. :rolleyes:

Lila

11-20-2006, 08:24 PM

I don't think animals go to heaven, I'm pretty sure only people do. It's sad, though, becuase today my friend's dog had to be put to sleep. :(

*Princess Rose*

11-20-2006, 08:34 PM

I made a thread bout that, gracileeno.

Lila

11-20-2006, 08:42 PM

I made a thread bout that, gracileeno.
new nickname, huh? tired of grakizlakay?

Lady of Lorien

11-20-2006, 08:58 PM

The_real_queen_of_Narnia

11-20-2006, 09:17 PM

I think that animals cease to exist when they die. Humans are created in the image and likeness of God - as Narborg said. That means they have spiritual, immortal souls. Because we have immortal souls, then when we die we go to Heaven or Hell...to live forever. But animals aren't created in the image and likeness of God...so they don't have immortal souls.

True, true. Thats why its not a sin to kill an animal. Animals were put on Earth for our well-being, so we will not suffer from hunger and loneliness and stuff like that. (But its still not nice to kill an animal just to kill an animal). I wish our pets would go to heaven, though...

EveningStar

11-20-2006, 11:16 PM

Lady Larien

11-20-2006, 11:24 PM

I think that animals do go to heaven because well I really don't know how to explain it..... I need to get my English teacher to write what his answer to that question is down for me because I HIGHLY agree with what he said when a kid in my class asked him that.

Lady of Lorien

11-20-2006, 11:46 PM

Image of God is something that is used a bit too tightly for my comfort.

All good things are in God and all goodness is the image of God, not one particular nose or full eyebrows. Otherwise one would debate if black people were in the image of God because the one on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is white.

There is nothing in the Bible that says what an animal looks like has anything to do with whether or not it has a soul. Matter of fact when God made David King of Israel he told the prophet to disregard his handsome, strong brothers for "The Lord looketh upon the heart."

For generations we have used as symbols the loyalty of the dog who lays down his life for his master. If that sort of love just dies...and memories die...and loyalty dies....then what use does a soul have anyhow? I mean if you can do all the things that make life fun and religion meaningful without one? We must consider for a moment the Bible was written for human welfare. That does not mean God has no regard for animal welfare.

John

I think that when the Bible talks of God making man in His own image...it couldn't have been "the nose and eybrows," or anything like that. God doesn't even have a body, right? So it isn't by having a body that we are like God... We must be like Him (not completely, of course, just an image) in our spiritual, immortal souls, then. But if animals aren't in the image and likeness of God in their souls (The Bible talks about God making man in His own image. The other animals aren't in that image, though.), then their souls wouldn't be immortal.

That's what I meant. Not that somehow we were made in the image and likeness of God in our physical bodies! :) But anyways, that's my belief on the subject.... :D

EveningStar

11-20-2006, 11:50 PM

Be very VERY careful about making overgeneralizations of a verse here or there in the Bible.

Some folks in Spain were absolutely adamant that the human-shaped creatures of the new world could NOT POSSIBLY BE HUMAN because their existance as humans was not mentioned in the Bible. They felt that enslaving them was perfectly ok and that by Aristotelian philosophy man, the superior master, should consider them created by God for their use however they saw fit.

Good thing isn't it that the Jesuit Order used its powerful influence to have Amerindians declared human and worthy of evangelism!

If Benito Juarez and Vincente Fox were mindless machines to do the bidding of real human beings....by virtue of being absent from the Bible...then maybe dogs and cats really are machines without feelings. BUT I SERIOUSLY DOUBT IT. And that's putting it mildly.

Lady of Lorien

11-20-2006, 11:56 PM

In the Bible it does mention animals, though. What would the distinction between men and animals be if not in their souls? Not physical form...because as you pointed out, even among men the shape varies very greatly!

SpiritedWolf

11-21-2006, 12:04 AM

I think they do... what would a heaven be if you couldn't be with the things you loved? I love animals more then life itself! I would do ANYTHING to be with animals.

EveningStar

11-21-2006, 12:13 AM

Dearest, as beings condemned under the law to death we have LOST OUR RIGHT FOREVER to own property and that includes having any "right" to use animals any old way we see fit. God in his grace spares us and allows us to have property, but not because we earned it. It is a privilege not a right. We gave up our rights when we chose sin.

As pardoned debtors we must treat the animals under our dominion with the same mercy God showed us. Remember the man who owed a thousand talents who begged the lord of the manor not to send him to debtors prison? He was forgiven his debt. He then went out and threatened a man that owed him 10 shekels to pay up or go to jail. The lord of the manor was so upset about that heartlessness that he re-instated the debt of a thousand talents and sent him to prison until he paid back every last mite.

Animals are entrusted to us. Like a king, we rule and we should rule wisely and well. Like a king, we are also responsible for the welfare of our subjects. God giving us dominion wasn't giving us a right but a RESPONSIBILITY. We are charged with maintaining God's world for future generations. How poorly we do it, dear.

Lady of Lorien

11-21-2006, 12:21 AM

I don't object to that, nor was I trying to... I wouldn't side with the boy who wanted to pull the legs off a moth just because he could, or anything similar. We should treat animals well, as living, God-made beings entrusted to our care. Although He doesn't appear to mind them being killed for good reasons - eating, for example... Witness the lamb for passover, also all the laws about what meat the Jews could and couldn't eat. But I don't think we have the right to be cruel to them. :)

echoscot

11-21-2006, 02:07 AM

I have to agree with Evening star. Yes, Genesis does say that we are made in God's image, but that is not necessarily the tie to heaven or an afterlife. I think that verse has a much broader interpretation. Again in several other passages animals are mentioned very specifically. Chapter 9 of Genesis speaks specifically to holding animals accountable for the shedding of innocent blood. There are only a couple of logical conclusions to that: God knows that at least some animals make choices for or against their instincts, and that there must be some point here or after that they give an accounting. It may or may not be similar to our accountability. There is room there to allow that animals exist beyond their life here.

There are some who interpret the passage in 2:7 of Genesis, where God breathes the breath of life into man to mark the difference. They state that breath means the giving of a soul. Yet the narrative only gives an affirmative account in the case of man. There is nothing in the passage to negate the situation with animals.

What surprises me, LL, is that in the Baptism thread you very specifically mentioned how we are made as both physical and spiritual beings. Yet here you seem to imply that the afterlife is purely spiritual, and that the only way to move beyond is by spirit. Perhaps I misunderstood you, and need some clarification.

Lady of Lorien

11-21-2006, 10:11 AM

No no, you are right. Our bodies will rise again and take part in the afterlife, of course! This is made clear from the Bible. But they do die on earth first (with a few exceptions, like Elijah etc.)...you would agree, right? A situation that is not the same for our souls. Our souls cannot die, right? I wonder again, if animals were like men in this aspect, what would distinguish between animals and men? A distinction is there in the Bible...what would it be? :)

echoscot

11-21-2006, 10:48 AM

EDIT: Fixed a couple of typos ;)

What I was getting at is that even after we die it seems that we are still given some physical form, the evidence such as Elijah and Enoch who were with God, from the text presumably physically. Then at the transfiguration, the disciples saw Elijah and Moses, in a physical form. In Revelation, we read about the martyrs under the thrones who are given robes to wear.

There is a branch of science that has gained credibility called threading. These scientists have studied and move forward on the theory that there are multiple universes, ie threads, with physical realities that we cannot fully observe as humans with our eyes. That, to me at least, explains a lot about how things like the Transifiguration could occur. God allowed the disciples to see into another thread and allowed Elijah and Moses to pass through that thread for a time.

Now, so you know I am not straying too far off topic, how this relates to animals. You asked if they are not spirit what kind of form they would take. My answer to that would be whatever form God chooses. If I am correct in the above paragraphs that humans are given temporary physical forms in the intermediate heaven and/or hell (purgatory, which I don't know enough about, being a protestant), then there is nothing to stop an omnipotent God from creating forms for the other portions of His creation. Jesus makes clear in the New Testament that God sees and knows and CARES about each sparrow that falls from the sky. I think he cares enough to make them more than just a temporary backdrop for the human experience. Just because Scripture does not specifically mention something does not mean it is not true or real. God does not need our input or consultation on how to make plans and run the universe, or universes. I know many people who think the position of co-God is still open for application, but that is not the case. He has revealed to us much through the Scriptures, but there is much more that in some cases is frankly none of our business.

I am not a member of Peta, or anything like that. I am not a vegetarian or a vegan. I do eat meat (not talking stag or anything like that of course :D ), however I do believe animals are capable of developing and maintaining relationships. It has been noted and studied that Elephants develop lasting relationships and mourn the death of others in their herd. Some animals can't stay with the same mate for more than a day(not much different from some humans). Growing up we always had dogs and cats and sea monkeys and such. We had an old mutt named Bonnie and then a young Schnauzer named Scamp. Bonnie liked the warm spot at the base of the refrigerator. She came into the kitchen one day to find Scamp laying there. She studied him for a minute then walked over to the sliding doors and started barking like mad. Scamp couldn't stand it and went to see what she was barking at join her. The instant Scamp got to the doors, Bonnie turned and ran and laid down at the foot of the refrigerator. Scamp took a few seconds before realizing he had just been "Had". It was absolutely clear that Bonnie had rationalized a plan to get her spot back and carried it out. Albeit using trickery and deceit. I got down on the floor and told her she needed to "Repent before the LORD for her evil ways" LOL. I don't think she understood and was happily warm and went to sleep.

Before someone accuses me of anthropomorphism, let me clarify. I believe that Humans, created in the image of God, are the pinnacle of His creation. I do not believe animals are humans or carry human attributes, though some of the similarities that we share I have noted above. I simply believe that God's creative power is limitless and that he cares about his creation, and that in the resurrected Earth He will carry on the diversity of His creativeness. And we, as Christians, will be able to experience the wonder and awe of the new Earth and the New Heaven along with the variety of animals with whom we have cared and had relationships.

I am Southern Baptist, and I can tell you this is NOT the doctrine of the denomination. The SB Church officially believes as some others have stated, that animals are not created in God's image and do not have souls therefore do not go to Heaven. Obviously, I disagree with that as do many other members of the denomination.

Wunderkind

11-21-2006, 11:02 AM

I believe they go to what we call Heaven,just like us humans.But if Heaven is the place I think it is,they'd be TALKING animals.

EveningStar

11-21-2006, 11:25 AM

Lady of Lorien, the same thing distinguishes man from wolf that distinguishes swan from blackbird. They are different species.

Nobody is trying to push man down on something else's traditionally low level. But it is time for modern people to be open minded to the idea the traditional level to which most other living things have been pushed might be lower than it deserves. Much lower.

I like the way they say it in Tahiti. The hills sleep. The trees are awake. The animals know. The men know they know.

If you want a Bible verse to give you permission to believe it, turn to Psalms. "And who can say that the soul of a man goes into heaven but the soul of a sheep descends into sheol?"

Also regard the Jewish dietary laws. They drain the blood because the spirit is said to be in the blood. In fact in Genesis God confronted Cain that Abel's blood "cried to him from the ground." It was an abomhination to consume the blood rather than letting the life return to God. Kosher laws mandate that animals are not allowed to hear their comrades die, and they forbid several painful methods of slaughter. If God felt that animals were machines without feeling, worthless bits of scenery or meat on the hoof, why would he devote a major section of Jewish law to protecting them from abuse? And finally, I remind you that Jesus said he had not come to overturn the law but to fulfill it. We Christians by and large do not stick with kosher law, but we do inherit the mandate not to be cruel to animals, a mandate sent from God.

Ultimately it comes down to this. Admire the human race for what it is. Accept it with its foibles and nobility, it's foolishness and its wisdom. Be thankful for your salvation and glorify God. And while doing so do not be the least bit resentful...and indeed be hopeful...that God in his mercy sees in the wolf that mates for life or the dog that lies down its life for its master a spark of the divine that is worth saving. Be thankful for this. Be glad for them. Do you not know in your heart of hearts that nothing truly beautiful or good ever fully dies?

echoscot

11-21-2006, 11:41 AM

Just so I can find it, what is the exact reference for that verse in Psalms your quoted? I would love to research that a bit.

Parthian King

11-21-2006, 11:51 AM

In his intro the theology course my systematics professor taught a particular view of eschatology. He argued for a restorationist view rather than a new creationist view of the coming age. His argument was basically that the new creation language of the Scriptures does not mean new as in "brand new, never been," but rather new as in "renewed, made new again." After discoursing on it for a while, he made an aside that has stuck with me ever since. He simply remarked that in this view, we can sincerely and freely tell our children that they will see their pets again. He was quite serious, since the basis for his statement had nothing to do with maudlin sentimentality, but rather his understanding of God's perspective on His own creation.

Of course, I doubt he could hold a candle to the gentle eloquence of our beloved badger, EveningStar.

P.S. I believe that passage is in Ecclesiastes 3:21.

echoscot

11-21-2006, 02:14 PM

Ecclesiastes, got it. Thank you very much :cool:

inkspot

11-21-2006, 04:02 PM

Also think about that story of Balaam and his donkey. The donkey could see the angel barring their way and wouldn't go forward, but Balaam kept beating it and trying to make it go because he could not see the angel himself.
Then the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, “What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?”
And Balaam said to the donkey, “Because you have abused me. I wish there were a sword in my hand, for now I would kill you!”
So the donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your donkey on which you have ridden, ever since I became yours, to this day? Was I ever disposed to do this to you?”
And he said, “No.”
Then the LORD opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the Angel of the LORD standing in the way with His drawn sword in His hand; and he bowed his head and fell flat on his face. And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out to stand against you, because your way is perverse before Me. The donkey saw Me and turned aside from Me these three times. If she had not turned aside from Me, surely I would also have killed you by now, and let her live.”
The story implies sometimes animal's have a vision of the spiritual world which we lack, that their wisdom might sometimes be greater than ours, and that they reason: she said to him "Haven't I worked for you all these years and never acted like this before?" She was asking him for the trust she deserved ... but the only reason Balaam was aware of this was the Lord opened her mouth -- this implies she was capable of reason all this time, but not until God allowed her to speak did she put it all into words ... The story also shows the Lord was willing to spare the donkey because of her obedience to him rather than man, and would have killed Balaam for being so obstinant.

Neevil

11-21-2006, 06:38 PM

Before someone accuses me of anthropomorphism, let me clarify.
I'm sorry this is a little off topic, but what in the world does anthropomorphism mean???

inkspot

11-21-2006, 06:43 PM

I'm sorry this is a little off topic, but what in the world does anthropomorphism mean???
Assigning human attributes to animals or inanimate objects.
:)

Neevil

11-21-2006, 06:49 PM

Assigning human attributes to animals or inanimate objects.
:)
Ah okay... Thanks. I think that's one of the biggest words I've ever seen :eek: :rolleyes:

Aslan's Son

11-21-2006, 06:56 PM

I'm sorry this is a little off topic, but what in the world does anthropomorphism mean???

Inkspot's basically described anthromorphism; it's like when you see humanoid animals on cartoons and stuff (like the Looney Tunes characters and such)--that's anthromorphism. xD It's pretty weird...

Elendil

11-23-2006, 12:36 AM

I would hope they went to heaven...I believe that they would. I'd love to see my little pony Charlie again... :(

~Lava~

11-23-2006, 09:54 AM

My church has always taught that animals do not have souls, if they did how would God permit us to eat them. I would like to see my dead dog, Belle, in heaven, but I have little hope that I will see the Belle that I am thinking of. I think of it this way, animals have no souls so when they die they will not go to heaven, but like Lewis said no good thing is ever destroyed in Aslan's Country, so maybe there will be a bigger, better, toe-licking version of Belle in Heaven.

Shadow Hawk

11-23-2006, 01:01 PM

that's is true that animals would not have souls.....But, you don't know what really waits in heaven... besides, God may have different animals.

Solya

11-23-2006, 02:16 PM

I believe animals are in the possession of a soul, but that they've got different souls than we do. :) Animals are able to connect with the spiritual world far more easily than we, I think, and therefore they are also our teachers instead of just companions or food. The animals I got in touch with all made me realise that if I want to get in touch with God I have to listen to everything in my surroundings. Animals are observant, though they also interact with their environment, and their eyes show God's love for all of creation.

So yes, I also believe we will see our beloved companions again in the afterlife. They were an important part of our lives and it seems only natural for us to get back in touch with them after our physical death.

Son of Adam

11-24-2006, 03:48 AM

Elendil

11-24-2006, 06:40 AM

I don't think they have souls but I'm sure God wouldn't mind giving us something we really wanted...like that! I hope I'll see you again! Charlie, Guy, Kenny, Olivia, Tiger and Misty! :D

EveningStar

11-24-2006, 10:55 AM

What gets me is that we imperfect creatures called humans can understand "Gee it would be nice if I could see Fluffy and Purry again" but we think that a perfect God of compassion and love would not see it that way.

"Who if their son asked for a loaf of bread would give him a snake? If you, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much better shall your perfect Father in Heaven give gifts to you." -- Jesus of Nazereth

In other words if puny human beings could see how nice it would be to have these creatures in Heaven, how much more clearly would God see it?

To me that settles the arguement. Period. And nobody on this list dares say that God lacks the ability. Huh. Yeah. He majored in Fiat Lux at Ex Nihlo University and graduated Alpha and Omega! ;)

Aslan'sFriend410

01-28-2007, 12:59 AM

:confused: I was just reading a review for Eight Below a movie on a Christian movie review site. One of the statements they made got me to thinking. It said that animals have no souls, so dogs don't go to heaven. There was no Scripture reference or any Scriptural base they pointed back to that I could find though. I've often wondered after the loss of a pet if I would someday seem them in Heaven, but now I'm not really sure what to think. Is it wrong to portray an animal having the likeness of an angel or some other Biblical symbolism? I'd love to hear some thoughts on this!

Here's the link to the review. You have to read a little ways down to find the reference I'm wondering about.

Samak

01-28-2007, 01:22 AM

I personally think that animals in general do go to heaven and also that they worship GOD.
I didn't really give a huge embrace to my dog (which i really feel bad about now) just before he was put down (cause he had cancer). I felt, for some reason compelled not to hug him, because i had an absolute gut feeling that i would/will see him again.
Also, in the New Testament it is said Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. That sounds pretty general. I suppose, if you ask for your pets/animals in general to be with you in heaven, i see no reason why GOD would say no.
I also believe that GOD protects HIS creatures as well. I'm sure most people are aware of the fact that animals are known to re-act to a dangerous situation sometimes days before the event actually happens.
I'm pretty sure in the story of Noah (PBUH) GOD called out all the animals/birds of the earth to assemble at Noah's (PBUH) Ark.
And just recently, in 2004, days before the Asian Tsunami struck land, animals all over Asia were going wild. Elephants in Sri Lanka had broken out of their reserves and were seen fleeing into the mountains, paying no attention to the people around them.
In Thailand and Indonesia dogs were going missing everywhere, mostly likely they escaped and fled.
All of these animals must have known in advance, before the earthquake even happened.
Not even Scientists are sure how animals know that a disaster is coming. But who's to say, that it isn't GOD warning the animals and telling them to get out of harm's way?
If GOD cares enough to warn animals of impending disaster, surley HE would love them enough to have them with HIM in heaven.

Copperfox

01-28-2007, 05:33 AM

The thing is that many Christians fear--NOT without cause--that an exaltation of beasts will mean a degradation of mankind. This can be seen happening, as many of the same people (I don't mean on this forum) who make a big deal of loving animals AND SAYING THEY ARE EQUAL TO US, go on to make human life LESS valuable, advocating "thinning out the human herd" with abortion and euthanasia.

Mr. Lewis purposely set up a barrier against this very same devaluation of humanity: although the Narnian world contains animals who actually ARE equal to humans in brainpower (which is NOT the case on Earth, no matter what the P.E.T.A. people may say), the animals are made to understand by Aslan Himself that humans are still meant to rule over them. (Although Mr. Lewis was against animal experimentation, he was even MORE against treating human beings as disposable cattle.)

As long as the hierarchy of God's creation is not turned upside-down, there's nothing wrong at all with the idea of animals going to Heaven. In fact, the issue of whether they have souls is a NON-issue. Even if there is NOTHING to an animal but its physical body and physical brain, God is not limited; He can bring that PHYSICAL creature, though dead and gone for centuries, back to life upon the New Earth which is foretold in the Book of Revelation. In words which I think were spoken by Robert Kennedy, "Ask not why; ask, Why NOT?"

Joseph Ravitts, author of "Southward the Tigers" (in Writing Club)

Hermit of Archenland

01-28-2007, 06:27 AM

Mr. Lewis purposely set up a barrier against this very same devaluation of humanity: although the Narnian world contains animals who actually ARE equal to humans in brainpower (which is NOT the case on Earth, no matter what the P.E.T.A. people may say), the animals are made to understand by Aslan Himself that humans are still meant to rule over them. (Although Mr. Lewis was against animal experimentation, he was even MORE against treating human beings as disposable cattle.)

I don't entirely agree with you there Copperfox. What Lewis did was the same as Tolkien, that is he extended the Christian concept of human supremacy to a wider group of creatures on an equal footing with humans. We see everywhere in the Chronicles that Lewis was careful to point out the distiction between talking beasts and ordinary animals.

In TMN we see that some humans (not all of them ) were chosen to rule Narnia, not because humans were in any way above the other intelligent creatures, but because humanity first brought evil to Narnia, so they were given the task of protecting it

Copperfox

01-28-2007, 06:39 AM

Well, the one time an animal presumed to take authority in Narnia, it was Shift the ape, and he brought only disaster. Also note, in "Prince Caspian," the way that non-humans in Caspian's army had a comical variety of suggestions for how they should start their uprising; human leadership was needed to get them all on the same page. As for Tolkien, except for his Talking Eagles and Spiders and arguably the Ents, all of his "other" races were really variations ON humanity. Tolkien said in some essay that his Elves reflected the creative, artistic aspect of the human race.

And I mean it about the danger of human life being devalued. I don't know if you've lived in California; but there, and in some other places, there are PLENTY of tree-hugging airheads who go on about how the human race has gotten too big, so it needs to be reduced in numbers--and they DON'T just mean by fewer future births, either. They want more LIVING people killed off, by infanticide at one end of the lifespan and euthanasia at the other end. Of course, they don't offer to die themselves, at least not as long as they're enjoying life; it's always OTHER people who should be sacrificed.

None of this changes the fact that I expect to find dogs in Heaven.

Hermit of Archenland

01-28-2007, 09:59 AM

Well I certainly hope there are animals in heaven too.

As for that scene in PC it was the Centaurs and the Dwarves, as well as Caspian, who insisted on a council of war. It was the centaurs as well, who convinced everyone that a war to restore Old Narnia was possible. And it was Trufflehunter the badger who first acknowledged Caspian as the rightful king.

I think at the beginning of the series (in LWW at least, which is the most allegorical of the books) Lewis may have been thinking along the same lines as you. Later he developed Narnia into a full blown alternative universe; in TMN we see the Talking Beasts and other creatures taking the place of humans in the Creation with Aslan giving them authority over the non sentient creaures.

As for the real world I agree that some people take legitimate concerns for the welfare of animals and the environment to such extremes that human life is devalued. Much as we should be concerned about animal welfare human life should always take precedence. The issue of animal experimentation is a complex one; personally I 'm of the opinion it should be allowed, but only under very stringent restrictions and controls. But that is really a subject for a seperate thread.

Crunchine

01-28-2007, 01:31 PM

My mom says that since our pets make us happy, they will be in heaven because it is a happy place, and i believe the same goes for all animals.

Aslan son of the Emperor

01-28-2007, 01:33 PM

I believe animals go to heaven, but then again I also believe animals have souls which I know a lot of people find ridiculos. However, in my defense I live on a ranch with a five horses, a dog, a ton of cats, and come cattle. If there is one thing I know it is that animals are just like humans, they have personalities, feelings, and moods just like humans. They have likes and dislikes just like everyone else. For instance we have a horse that really only likes to be ridden by me. Everytime my father or friends try to rope him he just runs away but he trusts me comes up to me and will follow me throughout the pasture.

Copperfox

01-28-2007, 05:07 PM

Well, not "JUST like" humans. No horse, dog or cat is going to join a web forum and enter discussions about the nature of God, virtue and eternity.

~Lava~

01-28-2007, 06:07 PM

There was a thread exactly like this on another part of the forum, but I think that no one visited it for a while so it got archived.

Any Way, I do not think that our animals as we know them go to heaven when they die. But as Lewis said, no good thing is destroyed in Aslan's Country, I think we might meet up with a bigger better version of our pets when we get to heaven. I sincerely think that heaven will not be devoid of animals, even if they are not the pets or animals that we have come to know.

Copperfox

01-28-2007, 06:10 PM

I'd say it will be PRECISELY our own pets that we WILL meet in Heaven--immortalized, but with the same continuous consciousness, only expanded and able to talk to us. Why SHOULD these creatures that have loved us be annihilated and discarded, when it will cost God literally nothing to restore them to life?

Aslan'sFriend410

01-28-2007, 06:11 PM

Wow! Seems as if most of you do think pets will go to Heaven too! I kind of always wondered about it and at least hoped they would. I do understand the premise of the hierarchy though and would not place animal welfare above that of other people, but still I think that the Lord made animals special and made some specifically to be companions with humans, and it seems if that is the case that He would make provisions for those animals, knowing that humans have an emotional attachment to them. I also think that there is more to animals than them having no soul at all. Our Pekingese is so full of personality and he lets us know very well how he feels at any given time. I wouldn't say that animals are exactly like people, but I do believe they can think, feel, act, and communicate, although they do it in different ways and are not as sophistocated as people in doing so. It's the "no soul" part I have the most trouble with because clearly if they can do the above there is something there! I would feel more certian about it if the writer had pointed back to the Scripture in making their assertion, but they did not. Neither have I found a verse or passage that supports or denies it. Although if I found out that it was true, I can't say that I wouldn't be a bit sad about it, but I would try to understand and accept it.

Actually, here's the link to the article. It was late last night when I posted and I don't know how I managed not to get it pasted. I had the page open and everything!

http://www.capalert.com/capreports/eightbelow.htm

Copperfox

01-28-2007, 06:24 PM

Ecclesiastes 3:21 has a vague reference to "the spirit of man" ascending to Heaven while "the spirit of a beast" passes into the earth. And Psalm 36:6 says, "Man and beast Thou savest, O Lord." In any event, as I posted earlier, even if a pet animal has NOTHING but a biological brain, it is NOT beyond God's power to reconstitute that very same animal, with the same awareness and memories it had before, and MAKE it live in Heaven (or on the New Earth) with us forever.

Aslan'sFriend410

01-28-2007, 06:52 PM

I appreciate everyone being so willing to share your thoughts. It has been interesting and encouraging reading for me. While thinking about this, I also was reminded of seeing some news articles several years ago of churches that hold ceremonies for their pets in which the minister blesses them. Reading that statement made in such a manner of finality last night started to make me worry, but I feel better now that I know others have likeminded opinions.

bruiser

01-28-2007, 07:22 PM

i think that animals do go to heaven.... well i hope so.... if they dont then me and god are going to have a loooong conversation..... j/k j/k but really i do think dogs/ pets/ animals go to heaven.....

Jessie-Simone

01-28-2007, 07:40 PM

Well God never breathed into the animals to give them a soul like he did to us so.

Copperfox

01-28-2007, 08:21 PM

Okay, I'll say it yet another time:

*** Even if a pet animal has NOTHING but a biological brain, it is NOT beyond God's power to reconstitute that very same animal, with the same awareness and memories it had before, and MAKE it live in Heaven (or on the New Earth) with us forever.

If, by "soul," you mean that which makes us humans as nearly God-like as we are, then I'll agree that animals don't exactly have that. But they don't NEED to have it to be raised from the dead, as long as God remains omnipotent.

Joseph Ravitts, author of "Southward the Tigers"

inkspot

01-29-2007, 04:29 PM

iMerge with an older thread on this topic. If you go back to page one now, you will see some interesting thoughts on this.

I of course believe any animal has a shot at heaven, especially those who were loved -- I think love ennobles them in the way Lewis implied was happening in Perelandra in the Space Trilogy.

Aslan'sFriend410

01-29-2007, 07:21 PM

Thanks, Inkspot! Kinda threw me off for a moment but I enjoyed the backreaeding! Very good idea!

~Lava~

01-30-2007, 05:17 PM

Jack of Blades

01-31-2007, 05:23 PM

I know animals go to heaven.
There are many scriptures in the bible about animals coming out of heaven.
Unless there is an Angel horse :rolleyes: Animals go to heaven.
In Revalations a White Horse is seen coming out of heaven.
I can't recall his name but God sent a chariot of horses to bring him up into heaven.

EveningStar

01-31-2007, 06:14 PM

The most important thing to remember in this or any other thread... God is free to act to save that which he loves. God threw us a curve when he gave his only son, a perfect being without sin, to die for a crime he did not commit that we sinners might live. If he will go that far for sinners, certainly he will make a place for innocent animals that are not accountable for sin.

John

SOS~

02-01-2007, 11:18 AM

Hope so.

If they don't then were to they go?

RIP Candy

Copperfox

02-01-2007, 11:30 AM

Those who think that letting animals into Heaven would somehow cheapen the relationship humans have with God, usually maintain that animals just cease to exist when they die. But since on the fundamental Christian view animals only have to die BECAUSE mankind sinned, it's a pretty raw deal for animals NEVER to be compensated for evils they had no part in creating. So I say the burden of proof is on those who DON'T think animals can go to Heaven; unless they can absolutely prove their case, we have every right to assume that animals CAN go to Heaven. Well, except maybe flies--they belong in the other place.

Wunderkind

02-01-2007, 11:31 AM

I think animals go to Heaven,yes.

Timberwolf

02-08-2007, 10:05 AM

First of all...think of the most beautiful animal you have ever seen. Then rememeber that God can create an animal more beautiful than anyone here can imagine. In the Bible, it says that there will be no sea, but God can create something bigger....

Kahleina

02-08-2007, 02:33 PM

In numerous places within Revelation, and without, there are horses, lambs, lions, and many other animals in heaven.

inkspot

02-13-2007, 04:01 PM

CS Lewis had an interesting theory on this ... he said animals stand in relation to us the way we stand in relation to God. Our relationship with God can only improve us, so an animal's relationship with us ought only to improve it. The "higher" animals, he said, who have been loved and tamed by humans, develop the rudiments of sentience (just as our being loved and "tamed" by God is what gives us consciousness of God and empathy for other people).

So while the beasts we love are not conscious as we are, our love has given them the beginnings, the dim beginnings, of awareness, sentience, and thus the dim beginnings of a soul. So he says, our beloved animals will be in heaven, in their "rightful" place or where God intended them to be in Eden: in a relationship with us. It's a nice thought.

Sunrise

02-20-2007, 10:11 PM

What a great thread topic. I contribute this excerpt from a poem by theologian John Piper, about the afterlife:

And as I knelt beside the brook
To drink eternal life, I took
A glance across the golden grass,
And saw my dog, Old Blackie, fast
As she could come. She leaped the stream--
Almost-and what a happy gleam
Was in her eye. I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there.

Why not?

girher

02-21-2007, 12:19 PM

I know horses are in heaven, the Bible says so.

Skulblaka_Shur'tugal

03-08-2007, 07:19 AM

I was wondering whether or not when animals die that they go to Heaven. Your thoughts..opinions?

The Bible describes Lions laying wiht Lambs in Heaven, and Wolves wth Sheep, etc. I always take the Bible literally, so there very well might be animals in Heaven. Besides, Jesus never did like killing any of his creation. And there might also be mythological creatures, like Dragons and Unicorns. It's a pleasant thought.

EveningStar

03-08-2007, 09:10 AM

Mythological creatures in Heaven? Wow, wouldn't it be great to meet an honest used car dealer! :D

Skulblaka_Shur'tugal

03-08-2007, 09:12 AM

Nah, we won't need cars, because we'll be able to run without being weary! (Take the Last Battle, a very good example of parallelism.) Anyway, it would be great to see creatures in Heaven that have gone extinct!

Jezebel707

03-12-2007, 02:45 PM

EveningStar

03-12-2007, 02:56 PM

Jezebel, animals never fell from a state of innocence. They don't need salvation. And even the most hardboiled and skeptical scientists these days have to admit animals have feelings and some sort of self awareness.

There's nothing to be sorry about. You can't keep animals out of heaven any more than I can put them there. We're all speculating about something God decided before we were born.

inkspot

03-12-2007, 07:00 PM

I believe that animals can't go to Heaven. I think that we Christians go to Heaven because we are saved through Christ and were created in His image. Which means that: we can think rational thoughts, we can talk, etc. I have never seen a dog that said ", I think,therefore I am." I still don't believe that animals go to Heaven. Sorry!!!
Besides, the Bible describes some beings in heaven who are not humans and were not saved by Christ's blood. Horses are mentioned (Jesus rides one in Revelation) and some beings who surround Christ's throne and praise Him -- they aren't human and certainly weren't saved by Jesus' sacrifice ... in fact it appears that humans are the only beings in heaven who required Christ's sacrifice to be there.

So the idea that only humans saved by Jesus' blood can be in heaven is in error, to begin with. As to whether our pets will be there, CS Lewis thought they would.
:)

Copperfox

03-13-2007, 12:16 AM

If _no_ beings other than sinners saved by Jesus could be in Heaven, Jesus Himself would not be allowed in!

None of this is to say that animals are EQUAL in value to humans. They are not. But having animals in Heaven, when we can neither be harmed by them nor allergic to them, will not take anything AWAY from our enjoyment of Heaven, so why SHOULD they be barred?

LadyArya

03-13-2007, 01:27 AM

hopefully they go to heaven / just not tics

EveningStar

03-13-2007, 07:38 AM

It never ceases to amaze me how debtors as spiritually deep in debt as ourselves would deny the same grace God showed us to animals that are innocent of all sin. Never forget that you are ransomed not only by the blood of Jesus but every blow of the hammer on the nails, every lash of the whip, every taunt of the soldiers, every thorn in the crown, every disappointment along his ministry, every mile of hot dusty road he wandered and every tear in the Garden of Gethsemene. You quite literally put him through hell and back. I gave up long ago drawing up lists of all the living things I was superior to and realized that I am the cause of God's anguish. I can hold my head up now, but my pride is not from myself but from God who forgave me.

inkspot

03-13-2007, 04:19 PM

Very nice, John.
:)

I had a dream once where I was wandering in these woods, and came upon this cabin -- so pretty, with a great wide porch and sturdy patio furniture just the kind I like, all in greens and greys and blues ... just what I like. I went in, and the cabin was wood-floored and was furnished just how I like, with lots of book shelves -- the ones with glass-front doors -- all filled with books. The place was gorgeous inside and out. I noticed photos in frames on the shelves, of me and my family! I thought, "This is my house!" I was so happy. Then a big black and white cat came running up, and I picked it up and was kissing and cuddling it, when it hit me: I am so allergic to cats! If it were real life, I would be sneezing my head off. And I remember thinking in my dream: "This must be heaven!" Because it was such a beautiful home, in a gorgeous setting, and I was not allergic to the cat.

So for my dream, the only other person I saw in heaven was the kitty. I believe she'll be there. :)

timbalionguy

03-13-2007, 05:27 PM

Finding this thread is perfect timing for me, as I am going through the exceptionally painful loss of a 900 pound big cat called a liger. This cat, named Hobbs, was very nearly my best animal friend. What made our relationship unique is that he 'chose' me to be a friend, and was always transfixed on me when I was around. It was a serious test of our relationship the day he died last month. I spent eight hours out in the cold with him, knowing that he was going to be euthainzed. He needed me there. He drew strength from me during those awful last hours. When we finally did euthanize him, I laid down in front of him, locked eyes with him, and loved him as best I could, he lost consciousness with our eyes locked on each other. A few minutes later, I had my hands on him when he breathed his last. This has been devastating to me, yet I know beyond any doubt that Hobbs was comforted and reassured by my being there during that awful experience. His spirit is now free of his body, and within hours, I was 'feeling' him. (MUCH more on animal spirits later!) Stil, like many here, I have my doubts about being rejoined with him in the next life. I love Hobbs so much that I will honestly say I don't want to be in heaven unless Hobbs is with me!

Someone mentioned hugging their pet when they died. I was unable to safely hug Hobbs when he was alive. But after he was dead, I gave him the biggest hug I could possibly give him. I hugged this huge cat so hard that I felt his bones pressing into me. (It was also difficult to do because his head and neck alone weighed about a hundred pounds!) It felt absolutely wonderful and good. And even though his body couldn't feel a thing, I do know Hobbs was watching, and could feel it vicariously. More on that later, too.

Copperfox

03-13-2007, 07:33 PM

Aravis Kenobi

03-13-2007, 11:37 PM

I again think pets will be there in heaven. Pets are one of the joys of life. I mean, God is the ultimate Creator of life; maybe He has a few pets up there too. :D I sure hope pets are there when I die; because I have about three pets I'd like to see again. If that sounded weird, I'm a weird person. :p I love animals. (not bugs or reptiles though.)

timbalionguy

03-14-2007, 04:19 AM

TIM: What you did for Hobbs, I have in my time done for one housecat and one dog.

Still--though I see no reason why Hobbs could not be admitted to Heaven (where he wouldn't be able to harm anyone even if he wanted to), I would not _dare_ to say to God, "I don't _want_ to go to Heaven UNLESS [fill in a condition]." It's not that I think we have to cringe before the caprices of an amoral God, but just the opposite: we need to be trusting Him that all of his eternal arrangements are right, and there will never even BE an issue of His "getting it wrong" with Heaven for us to have to keep quiet about.

Joseph, I am not a good person at accepting a substitute for the real thing. I do not like margarine on popcorn, for instance. In this specific case, I had an intense and personal relationship with this magnificent creature. It was plainly evident he enjoyed the relationship as much or mre than I did. I cannot aimagine any thing that could ever substitue for the bond I had with Hobbs. And, I don't believe that God would give me some other interesting and sbsorbing activity to take my mind off someone who I will never experience again. Thus, finding my liger friend in heaven is the 'real thing', and I would never settle for less. But not knowing what will really happen leaves me with doubts that things will turn out as I would like them. I hope you see what I am trying to say here. I am not trying to defy God as much as to communicate to Him how important it will be for me to carry on this special frienship for eternity. There is nothing that could ever been substituted for it.

You are also right about Hobbs doing no harm in heaven. There is no fear there, therefore, no reason to bite, etc. (despite the pasages in Isaiah about lions eating straw, I must somehow imagine that there is some way to have some kind of (really good) meat to eat for those of us who like that over vegetables, and when we are not on 'God's Holy Mountain'.) I have sensed a calming, in the spirits of these deceased cats that have crossed my path, that could only be explained by a removal of fear.

Skulblaka_Shur'tugal

03-14-2007, 06:30 AM

It just would'nt make sense that God would create animals on Earth but not put them in Heaven as well. Personally, I'm looking forward to not only seeing my departed pets, but wild animals such as foxes and deer, whom we can touch and not be afraid of being hurt or of scaring them silly.

EveningStar

03-14-2007, 08:12 AM

I have a much simpler explanation for all this. Animals love, know and remember. If they could do those things without a soul, then what the heck is a soul good for? Be honest with yourself...COMPLETELY honest... You go to church, accept Christ, and feel unadulterated joy. You listen to Beethoven's Fur Elise and feel a sense of majesty and being elevated from the plane of ordinary existance. You embrace your child and feel a surge of love and contentment. You watch a glorious western sunset. In all those things we say we know somehow, some way there must be a God. But all those are feelings, and my dog experiences incredibly deep feelings when I come home or cuddle with her on the couch. If that's not a soul, then all those feelings you have in church, the concert hall, or sitting on Scenic Point are all nothing but chemistry and the soul is some irrelevant electromotive force out there with no purpose but to identify you as not being an ostrich or a gekko.

My dog has a soul. I don't know about your dog, but mine does.

Skulblaka_Shur'tugal

03-14-2007, 08:15 AM

I don't know. My dogs are just dumb. But, if animals have a brain to know what they're doing, and a heart to tell them how they feel, and feelings to show Man their true nature, then it's obvious that God wants them in Heaven.

inkspot

03-14-2007, 01:50 PM

Someone just sent me this story in an email, a made-up story, but I thought it was nice, regarding Timba's dilemma:

A traveller was walking along a country road with his dog beside him when he realized: he was dead, and the dog had been dead many years before the traveller himself died. They kept walking on this sunny day, and pretty soon were very thirsty. Just then they arrived at a beautiful marble wall with a magnificent golden gate in it. The traveller asked the gate-keeper what it was, and the gate-keeper said it was heaven. Then the man asked if he could come in, and have a drink, and the gate-keeper said yes and began to open the gate. So the traveller asked could his dog have a drink, too, and the gate-keeper pointed to a sign: NO PETS ALLOWED.

The traveller couldn't leave his thirsty dog outside, so he opted to keep walking. A long ways up the road, they came to a dirt road leading through a farm gate that looked as if it had never been closed, and just inside, a man leaning against a tree, reading a book.

Again the traveller asked if he could have a drink, and the man said yes and pointed him to a pump just beyond the gate. So the traveller asked if his dog was also welcome, and the man said of course, there was a bowl for him by the pump. The traveller and his dog both came in and drank their fill of delicious water.

Then he traveller thought to ask the man what this place was, and was surprised to hear the answer: heaven! He told the man about his experience at the other place that claimed to be heaven. And the man told him, that place was actually hell! The traveller asked, "Doesn't it make you mad for them to use your name like that?"

"No," the man replied, "We're just happy that they screen out the folks who would leave their best friends behind."

Sain

04-02-2007, 02:37 AM

No, I really do not think they do. Many of the lower animals do not possess the intellect or level of consciousness to possibly have a soul. For example, a toad only lives to hop around and eat bugs.

Solya

04-02-2007, 03:27 PM

No, I really do not think they do. Many of the lower animals do not possess the intellect or level of consciousness to possibly have a soul. For example, a toad only lives to hop around and eat bugs.

Mmm, but a toad doesn't know that there's something more to life than hopping around and eating bugs. For a toad, that is all life is and it is the most valuable thing to this toad that it is given the ability to hop around and eat bugs. Why should this toad then not possess a soul that is made to suit him and his life purpose? :)

I don't think we need a certain level of intellect in order to have a soul. Maybe a level of consciousness, yes, but how do we know that we're more conscious than animals? Simply because we walk, talk and think doesn't make us in any way more connected to God... it might even throw us further away from God at times...

EveningStar

04-02-2007, 03:42 PM

Well said. Certainly when I see how happy my little dog is for me to be home, and how she remembers me and protects me, I think what good is a soul if none of this comes from the spirit? A soul would be nothing more personal than a social security number if it did not play a part in these things, and certainly my dog possesses these things.

timbalionguy

04-11-2007, 06:59 PM

The fact that animals can express many of the same emotions that we can speaks *volumes* about their 'unseen parts' (soul and/or spirit). For years, scientists have advocated that whet we interpret as emotions are nothing more than a complex stimulus-response mechanism, with some memory thrown in. One scientist said the typical animal had no more reasoning power than a '286 processor. (Remember those??)

Any pet owner will tell you differently. The bond one can have with an animal approaches or meets the spiritual level, or at least it seems to. Nearly all of the best relationships I have in my life are with animals. And there are definitely other people out there like me. Do note that nothing I am saying here is intended to denegrate human-human relationships, as these are the relationships that make the vast majority of people 'tick'. There are just some people out there who are meant to bond with animals more strongly than people. There are also those out there to have their primary bond with purely spiritual beings, such as monks.

Incidentally, I feel that any attempt to legally interfere with any of the aforementioned bonds is a crime against humanity, and should be punished as such.

inkspot

04-13-2007, 12:10 PM

Also in the Bible, if you read the story about Balaam and his donkey that God allowed to talk, she reasoned with her owner: she was balking in the road because she coud see an angel that Balaam could not see, and he beat her. When God allowed her to speak, she said words to the effect, "I've been with you all these years and never acted like this before, have I?" (Balaam had to admit she had not.) She had reason and pointed out to him that her past good behavior should lead him to understand that her seemingly bad behavior now had a logic to it.

I think the inclusion of this story in God's Word should tell us something -- that God has given animals the capacity for thought, and this is the beginnings of a soul, right?

EveningStar

04-13-2007, 12:32 PM

Absolutely. But to be quite honest, you don't have to restrict yourself to the Bible for evidence. The Bible said nothing about the Crimean War, the Anadromeda Galaxy, pulsars, atoms, or the Marianas Trench. We learned of those things through observation.

We also observe our beloved dogs and cats doing the things we all associate with a soul. As C.S. Lewis said "You don't HAVE a soul, you ARE a soul." And those things must be done WITHIN the soul even if the soul pays a certain respect to the limitations of the human brain...more about that later. Dogs love, fear, investigate, remember, play, seek, protect....all the things we think of as processes that go on inside our soul. So if they are "faking" it, how do we know we aren't "faking" it too and are all deluded idiots doomed to die and turn back into the chemicals we are?

I finish this with a brief note from history. St. Basil's Cathedral in Moscow was built for Ivan the Terrible to celebrate a great military victory. He was so impressed with the building that he had the architect blinded so he could never create one more splendid. This is what I think of when people say animals can't have souls in order to glorify man with something unique. How very like Ivan... I don't want to be unique at the cost of denying God's gift of life to others. That would not make me happy, it would make me guilty, angry, upset, and outraged. I want all the animals that suffer in this world to go to a better place. I want the old herbivore that couldn't run away and was torn alive by wolves to find a place of sanctuary. I want the old wolf that coudln't catch rabbits anymore and slowly starved to go to a better place where there was no more hunger. It's the only way I can see that the cruelties of nature make any sense...that they are a temporary thing, a passing phase, an hour of militant suffering before a sunrise of joy.

John

inkspot

04-13-2007, 12:37 PM

I don't see how it's any insult to us or to God if there are animals in heaven, anyway. The Bible talks about some "creatures" already there, and about the horse Jesus rides ... so if they are there, why not others?

EveningStar

04-13-2007, 01:00 PM

Of course, Pardine. As I said before, all animals have souls...except leopards...

(Yes, there is a private joke involved)

Copperfox

04-13-2007, 01:20 PM

The soul subject is partly a matter of mere semantics. For sake of clarification, since there is SOMETHING about human beings which is not present in animals ("other" animals, if you prefer), let us for a moment SAY that the word "soul" refers to this distinguishing something.

Even if animals don't have souls, does this mean that God's omnipotence hits a crash barrier at this point? Nothing can stop God, if He chooses to do this, from reconstituting and reviving an animal that died, with no more than the "non-soul" consciousness it already had, "mutating" its body from that flesh and blood which cannot inherit the Kingdom into something immortal, then releasing it in the fields of Heaven for our enjoyment, the animal being unable to harm immortal humans even if it wanted to. There could even be trees on which something like meat grows, for the carnivores to eat. When in doubt, I always default in favor of God giving MORE life and MORE grace; and, as has been said, letting animals into Heaven won't rob us humans of any enjoyment. (None of us will have allergies anymore.)

EveningStar

04-13-2007, 01:51 PM

Man does in fact have one distinguishing feature we can all agree on. He's the only creature that necessitated Christ go to the cross for sins he did not commit himself. Let us remember that to our shame.

Our difference is not in our sole possession of a spirit, but in the degree of intelligence we possess that increases our potential for abstract thought, philosophy and art.

PrinceOfTheWest

04-13-2007, 02:32 PM

As Lewis was fond of pointing out (and he was echoing the Church Fathers in saying this): the better something is, the worse it can be when it goes wrong. Humans have done much more damage to Creation and each other than, say, fallen blackbirds every could have.

I do, however, wonder about mosquitoes.

EveningStar

04-13-2007, 03:05 PM

We can't ALL be badgers...no matter how badly we may wish to be. ;)

Try not to hate me because I'm cute as a button...

timbalionguy

04-13-2007, 04:35 PM

I want all the animals that suffer in this world to go to a better place. I want the old herbivore that couldn't run away and was torn alive by wolves to find a place of sanctuary. I want the old wolf that coudln't catch rabbits anymore and slowly starved to go to a better place where there was no more hunger. It's the only way I can see that the cruelties of nature make any sense...that they are a temporary thing, a passing phase, an hour of militant suffering before a sunrise of joy.

John

John, that's an interesting observation. I have always speculated that there may be some special blessing on animals that become food. As you point out, becoming food in the animal kingdom can be a very negative experience, especially if it's wild dogs or hyenas having you for lunch. (I'll spare the details!)

Your description goes further, and suggests a general case for all animals, and I like that. It makes me think of the old, dying male lion that came back to the pride he once 'ruled' to say 'goodbye'. After touching noses with his former lionesses, he walked away from the pride and fell over dead. (This story is recorded in the writings of the Jouberts. It also pointed out that apparently Derek Joubert's guide had seen this kind of thing more than once.)

I am now getting in the habit of praying a blessing on the animal that provided my food, or my cats' food. Especially so if I am taking it's life for that purpose.

timbalionguy

04-13-2007, 04:54 PM

Even if animals don't have souls, does this mean that God's omnipotence hits a crash barrier at this point? Nothing can stop God, if He chooses to do this, from reconstituting and reviving an animal that died, with no more than the "non-soul" consciousness it already had, "mutating" its body from that flesh and blood which cannot inherit the Kingdom into something immortal, then releasing it in the fields of Heaven for our enjoyment, the animal being unable to harm immortal humans even if it wanted to. There could even be trees on which something like meat grows, for the carnivores to eat. When in doubt, I always default in favor of God giving MORE life and MORE grace; and, as has been said, letting animals into Heaven won't rob us humans of any enjoyment. (None of us will have allergies anymore.)

I would say instead of 'can't harm us' to 'would never want to harm us'. It's lind of like Aslan telling Caspian X in MN that 'you cannot want to do something wrong in My country'. I know if I am sensing animal spirits like I think I am, they are certainly more gentle than they were when they were here, and this goes even for cats that were gentle here. (They can also display intellect, but not anywhere to the degree we can.) There can be no fear in 'Aslan's Country'.

I have always wondered about what the carnivores might eat. I know it talks about 'lions eating straw like the ox', a concept I find somewhat repulsive. Perhaps it's a special kind of straw that doesn't grow here. However, a lion couldn't chew it very well. I like the idea of meat-flavored fruit. A tough, chewy kind for true carnivores like lions and tigers (no leopards in heaven because they don't have souls ;-) ) who actually seem to prefer gristly meat, and a more tender kind for people who don't have the specialized carnivore teeth.

Another writer has suggested that lions eat straw only on God's holy mountain. Elsewhere, He will provide game for them to hunt. God could certainly do this without really violating the 'no death in Heaven' principle. Indeed a very interesting allegorical book called 'Sirga the lion' has a scenario just like that. The lions were driven out of the land for reasons I don't remember. When it was time for them to return, they were taken to a place of strengthening. There, there was a herd of deer. These deer knew they existed exclusively to be lion food, and actually permitted the lions to hunt them. The deer put up no resistance when being 'attacked', and the implication was that the lions therefore always made a clean, humane kill. The lions feasted on these deer until their strength was great enough to return to their former lands. (I highly recommend this book, and was crying with joy by the time I finished it.)

Not only would letting animals into heaven not rob us of joy. I think it will make it a much better place!

.::xLucyx::.

04-17-2007, 01:57 PM

Not only would letting animals into heaven not rob us of joy. I think it will make it a much better place!

nothing can make heaven better, we'll be happy no matter what's up there.

animals dont go anywhere, they dont have souls. they dont go anywhere but do you think they care? i will post more later since i have no time.

we were created in God's image, and God put us OVER the animals, we are NOT animals and only us who were created in God's image have the privilege of entering into heaven

EveningStar

04-17-2007, 02:02 PM

Don't you think that sounds a little harsh? I almost expect to hear the words "SO THERE!"

I don't know what book you read in that animals don't have souls, but I can promise you it's nowhere in that book we call "The Bible".

I could tell you stories of animals I've known, some of whom died surrounded by the ones they loved. Stories that seem to indicate you have jumped to a conclusion, and for all the wrong reasons.

We as humans are what we are, and we are not less somehow if others are spiritual too. If every planet in the entire universe had intelligent life, we would not change. If every animal in the entire world had a soul, we would not change. We are not defined by others...we are defined by ourselves. Nobody else has to do without in order for us to be no more and no less special than we were yesterday, the day before, and the century before that. It's just like the way God's existance is not affected by how many people believe in him. If nobody believed in him, God would not change. If everyone believed in him, he wouldn't somehow be greater or bigger than he is. He defines himself. We define ourselves. Animals define themselves and all is right and just that way.

inkspot

04-17-2007, 02:07 PM

Well said, John. You and I were posting at the same time.

nothing can make heaven better, we'll be happy no matter what's up there.

animals dont go anywhere, they dont have souls. they dont go anywhere but do you think they care? i will post more later since i have no time.

we were created in God's image, and God put us OVER the animals, we are NOT animals and only us who were created in God's image have the privilege of entering into heaven
1. Do you have Scripture which backs up what you are saying? Otherwise, it is just your speculation, and a very sad and cruel speculation at that.

2. If there are no animals in heaven, how do you account for the horse Jesus rides in Revelation, the lion, lamb and wolf spoken of on God's holy mountain, the "creatures" always praising God before His throne, etc?

3. Angels are not human, yet they are in heaven, so your argument for heaven as a homo-sapiens-only club is defunct from the start.

4. Although we are created "in God's image," CS Lewis has pointed out that everything is a reflection of Gods image: space in its vastness, the sea inits power, the animals in their innocence ... the list goes on. Just because we are also made in His image does not mean we are the only ones.

5. How do you know an animal has no soul? Some of the writings of King David indicate he thought he had no soul ("How can those who are dead praise You?").

6. Because God put us in charge of the animals merely laid a great responsibility on us to be good and caring -- it did not empower us to treat them with the cavalier attitude you seem to exhibit here.

Your opinion is offensive to some of us, but if you can back it up with Scripture, that would help. Please elucidate.

.::xLucyx::.

04-17-2007, 02:40 PM

I will back it up with scripture, later.

Yes there are creatures in heaven, but not your dog that just died or the cat you had when you were little. Animals act on instinct that God gave them and not on judgement of good and evil like we have.

It's just like the way God's existance is not affected by how many people believe in him. If nobody believed in him, God would not change.

no, its not like that actually, i dont see the connection at all.

i could spend hours proving that im right and your wrong but i dont think i'll waste my time. as long as you have God in your life then you can just see for yourself when you get to heaven that im right...SO THERE! :p

inkspot

04-17-2007, 02:46 PM

I will back it up with scripture, later.

Yes there are creatures in heaven, but not your dog that just died or the cat you had when you were little. Animals act on instinct that God gave them and not on judgement of good and evil like we have.

no, its not like that actually, i dont see the connection at all.

i could spend hours proving that im right and your wrong but i dont think i'll waste my time. as long as you have God in your life then you can just see for yourself when you get to heaven that im right...SO THERE! :p
You could spend hours proving you are right, but you won't. I think this says volumes about what you think you know of the Bible and this issue.
:)

Don't spend hours. Just give us the Scriptures where you read that animals do not go to heaven. That will suffice.

Copperfox

04-17-2007, 02:52 PM

"MUSIC," do you understand the expression "burden of proof "? It means that reason, experience, or moral sense compels us to say that a certain position cannot be accepted as the most likely position; that position must have positive proof, or it remains unlikely at best.

Since there can be no dispute that God IS powerful enough to make individual animals live again in Heaven, the question--REGARDLESS of hairsplitting about what a soul is or what God's image means--is whether God would be WILLING to make them live again. From there, given God's nature of love and kindness, the BURDEN OF PROOF is on those who insist that He would NOT do so. The burden of proof is on you to prove that Heaven would somehow be worse, or God would lose His glory, if animals WERE brought into Heaven. Whatever would NOT spoil Heaven or diminish God's glory, and WOULD be a well-suited element of our joy in Heaven, must be considered quite likely, until there is powerful cause to think otherwise.

Psalm 36:6b says, "Man and beast Thou savest, O Lord." This does not have to mean that animals are equal in status to humans, but it does allow us to infer that God has better things in mind for animals than for most of them to suffer horribly and then die even more horribly, and for all of them to cease to exist upon dying.

Copperfox

04-17-2007, 03:04 PM

Long ago, I read a lot about Norse myths. In one story, Thor killed the two goats that had been drawing his chariot, in order to provide meat for a hungry mortal family. After they had eaten their fill, Thor brought the goats back to life again with regenerated flesh on their bones. Although I _don't_ believe that carnivores will do any form of hunting and killing whatsoever in Heaven, I suppose it's conceivable that prey animals could be eaten and then brought back to life as good as new. All this is just guessing, but remember that God has _more_ imagination than we have, not less.

.::xLucyx::.

04-17-2007, 10:56 PM

youre wrong and im right :D

dont care whatcha say cause i know it and thats all that matters, and the reason im not posting scripture right now is cause i have no time

EveningStar

04-17-2007, 11:20 PM

That may be a joke but it's not funny when you're joking about people's closely held beliefs. And unless you're willing to look up the references, please don't hint at them.

I'm not trying to be nasty here, but we are all responsible for the consequences our posts have on fellow members' feelings. Play nice.

John

Copperfox

04-17-2007, 11:27 PM

MUSIC, you're sounding like the "No-Matter-What Game" that we played when I was a kid: "I'm smarter/handsomer/ stronger/better than you, nomatterwhat-nomatterwhat-nomatterwhat!" If your "knowing" on the current subject amounts to anything more than you WANTING a certain position to be true, there should be something you can point to that supports it--for God is not a God of confusion. He would not confer a special revelation on you that cannot be shared with the rest of us in plain language. The burden of proof, as I said, remains on your shoulders. And don't just repeat, "They don't have souls," because I already dealt with that point.

inkspot

04-18-2007, 01:12 PM

youre wrong and im right :D

dont care whatcha say cause i know it and thats all that matters, and the reason im not posting scripture right now is cause i have no time
Music, you are defying the rules of the forum and behaving like a spoiled child, which if it continues, I will assume you are. In the Stone Table, we are discussing faith and philosophy which matters passionately to those of us who choose to participate. When we state a position as strongly as you have stated yours, we either post our documentation or withdraw the statement. Since you have been unable to post your documentation, we will consider your position to be completely bogus.

In future, if you wish to post in these discussions, please be prepared to document your opinion, or do not post at all.

Let me also warn you publicly that your tone in your previous posts is completely inappropriate, and if you continue that way in these serious threads, you will be banned.

You are either very young, or a very foolish adult, for no one with any experience of the real world would make the kind of statements you have been making. I will excuse you this time on the grounds of your youth and/or ignorance, but not again.

timbalionguy

04-20-2007, 05:35 PM

youre wrong and im right :D

dont care whatcha say cause i know it and thats all that matters, and the reason im not posting scripture right now is cause i have no time

Looking at your profile, I see you consider yourself 'hyper cat-girl'. If you are into cats, I assume you have or have had some pet cats. If these animals are acting purely on instinct, can you explain why cats like to be cuddled, scratched, kissed, and generally loved on? What survival benefit does this have? Have you not felt pure love from your animals? Do you ever wonder where this pure love comes from? If animals cease to exist when they die, how do you explain the disposition of their spirits as recorded in Ecc 3:20-21? Or, the redemption of creation as recorded in Romans 8:18-23?

When I am with an animal with which a share a bond, I feel God's love shining through that animal because they are free of original sin. Because I am a strong animal person, the most sustaining bonds in my life are with the animals I care for. I recently lost a very special animal friend. The bond we share screams to be redeemed, and I am confident that we will be rejoined for ever someday. Nothing that God can provide can ever substitute for this bond. God intended for it to be that way. Therefore, as long as we don't exalt these bonds above our bond with God, we will always be with our special friends after we have shed our mortal husks.

.::xLucyx::.

04-21-2007, 02:33 PM

Looking at your profile, I see you consider yourself 'hyper cat-girl'. If you are into cats, I assume you have or have had some pet cats. If these animals are acting purely on instinct, can you explain why cats like to be cuddled, scratched, kissed, and generally loved on? What survival benefit does this have? Have you not felt pure love from your animals? Do you ever wonder where this pure love comes from? If animals cease to exist when they die, how do you explain the disposition of their spirits as recorded in Ecc 3:20-21? Or, the redemption of creation as recorded in Romans 8:18-23?

When I am with an animal with which a share a bond, I feel God's love shining through that animal because they are free of original sin. Because I am a strong animal person, the most sustaining bonds in my life are with the animals I care for. I recently lost a very special animal friend. The bond we share screams to be redeemed, and I am confident that we will be rejoined for ever someday. Nothing that God can provide can ever substitute for this bond. God intended for it to be that way. Therefore, as long as we don't exalt these bonds above our bond with God, we will always be with our special friends after we have shed our mortal husks.

All I can say is I'm deeply sorry...the cat thing really got to me...

I realize how disrespectful and completely obnoxious I've been and I'm deeply deeply sorry. Who can say what will be in heaven? Only God, and I'm not God

Parthian King

04-21-2007, 05:11 PM

I think we can all accept that, LUCY (and you forgive me for not throwing in all the little dots).

Moving on, I don't know exactly how the whole "animals in heaven" thing will work out, but I have a few thoughts. First, let me say I am historical and orthodox in my Christianity, and I'm not crazy about going beyond what is written. Taking liberties with Scripture makes my palms sweat, and I think references to "Lions laying down with lambs" etc. are metaphorical passages to describe the bliss of the eschatological age.

That said, I must also say that I believe animals have souls, even if they do not have spirits and consequently are not made in the image of God. If we define a soul as "mind, will, and emotion," then my dogs sure have all three in spades. They just don't have eternal, God-imprinted spirits at the core of their beings. I might add that animals make some pretty heavy appearances in Scripture that go beyond the metaphorical references I mentioned before. They figure prominently in the Creation. I think of the passage about Balaam's donkey, and it seems pretty clear the miracle of her speaking goes beyond a "divine parlor trick." God really enabled her to speak, express herself, and complain of her treatment from the core of a real identity. That is serious food for thought. I also think animals make a big showing in Jonah, including fasting (albeit involuntarily) to save Nineveh from God's wrath.

I had a theology teacher whose view of the paradisical future included a type of restorationism which resulted (logically, and not with this as its primary goal) the restoration of all good and noble beings that had been invested with the breath of life. I reiterate, there is no comparing animals and human beings in value, status, or inheritance. But that doesn't mean animals don't play an important role in God's plan. If this world is a shadow of the next, what animals must be there for us to enjoy!