i don't think he really liked [brown] polytheistic and i need to clear something out

[umbrellaxscenexcore]

PLEASE DON'T BE MEAN TO ME, THIS IS WHAT I SAW WHEN I READ THE HORSE AND HIS BOY AND THE LAST BATTLE.

and i can't find the article, but a while ago i read an article on the internet and it , this guy was saying that lewis didn't base CoN on christianity because of the part in VotDT when lucy reads the spell, he said that was like witch craft. now normally i don't being part of religious debates, they're pointless, no ones learns anything from them and they never end. but this is peeing me off...tell me if this is true; i think that c.s.lewis got his IDEAS from the bible and christianity but they weren't[CoN] BASED on christianity. please don't be mean to me, and please don't write long posts with complicated sentences, just get your point clear please:o (i hate really long complicated posts, i think thats why i don't like religious debates)

[inkspot]

LOL, no fear.

CS Lewis was a Christian. His major books on Christian apologetics (explaining Christianity) make it clear that he knew Jesus Christ as Savior and desire others to follow Jesus.

He also liked fantasy stories and fairy tales, just like we do. So when Lucy says a spell to make the Duffers visible again, it is about the same as the fairy godmothers in Cinderella saying "Bibbity bobbity Boo" and turning the pumpkin into a coach.

It was a fantasy story in a magical land, but that does not make it pagan. Lewis was a Christian, and his stories point people to Jesus.

:)

[umbrellaxscenexcore]

oh! but you know what i also saw...he didn't seem to like brown ppl at all...they kind of insulted them in tHahB.

[Aravis Kenobi]

He was probably relating to the racial issues of our time. African Americans were pretty discriminated against in his day, so he was probably not a racist, but rather, having situations that pertained to our modern age.

[EveningStar]

Odd, I get the impression that Lewis, in populating Narnia with talking animals, went WAY beyond accepting variations in human skin tone. I say only partly in jest that the most evil person in all of Narnia was THE WHITEST OF ALL. :rolleyes:

I guess it's all in how you look at it.

With that being said, it's clear from the way he describes th Calormenes that Lewis was not radically multicultural. Radical multiculturalism is the belief that every culture is really the same, just expressed differently. So Christopher Columbus was his era's Neil Armstrong and human sacrifice was the Mayan eucharist. Not better or worse, just DIFFERENT. I don't buy that, most of my friends don't buy it, and Lewis didn't buy it. Unfortunately a lot of well meaning people do buy it and try to impose it on the rest of us.

Look for instance at many of the Amerindian tribes that practiced horrible torture and immolation against tresspassers from other tribes. In so doing they kept pretty much everyone where they "belonged". To say that this was not WORSE, just DIFFERENT than western ideas of immigration control is beyond ridiculous. Every culture could stand some improvement. Even some of my own mistakes and predilections makes me wish that I could be more Christlike and embrace the ideals in my car seat to the depth I embrace them in the pew. To say all cultures are equal is to preclude entirely the notion of progress. There is no progress, just change; no improvement, just differentiation; no growth, only movement. I cannot accept this. The human race is inborn with the desire to leave the world a better place than they found it. Eventually that will triumph, or at least it will be expressed in God's eternal kingdom.

So let us sit down together and discuss what makes Calormen society so crude? Well for one thing, Aslan himself set down the ground rules for Narnia. The society was founded by him. Calormenes and Telmarines came in by the back door. They were not founded by Aslan. They did not honor the Emperor Across the Sea, and their culture suffered for it.

That seems rather clear cut to me.

John

[inkspot]

In HHB, many times Aravis and the war horse Bree are used to demonstrate the good points of Calormene heritage. The horse is excited to hear Aravis tell a story in the "true Calormene" style. The city of Tashbaan is described as quite majestic. Aravis herself appears to be quite lovely looking.

I think Lewis found the Knights of Arabia motif quite foreign and exotic -- not inferior in any way except for the the Calormene spiritual life.

[Samwise Gamgee]

I don't think he was bashing the brown people I think he was showing the reality of diffrent countries. I think if it was a diffrent colour of contry he would have done the same, but that is what I think.

[umbrellaxscenexcore]

yeah but some christians are vrown too, you know. theirs a brick wall between religion and culture.oh and inkspot, arabs and olytheistic, when i read abou the calormenes they resembled more of the hindus to me(hindu tribes->india, sri lanka, bangladesh...)

ive read all the posts, speaking of amerindiens EveningStar...i used think they were awsomeishly rad...uh, cool, but after seeing a movie called black robe in history clas this year along with studying them....i don't like them too much anymore... although i loved HHB, i'm not excited to see it turn into a movie...but if andrewdirects that one...i know he'll make it great...and i won't have to worry...i can't say too much of the same with LB cuz it's more different...well, they all are.

[Aravis Kenobi]

I don't think he was bashing the brown people I think he was showing the reality of diffrent countries. I think if it was a diffrent colour of contry he would have done the same, but that is what I think.

Me too. I mean, if people out there would want to bash those two books, then they'll probably be the minority in doing so. Another thing: everyone in another world can't be expected to have the same religion. Wouldn't it make sense for Lewis to create two religions? One for the Narnians and one for those who weren't Narnian? I mean, that's sort of obvious.

[Copperfox]

Speaking of the Telmarines:

Months ago, I wrote an article defending Mr. Lewis against the accusation of racism brought against him by Philip Pullman, a less-inspired fantasy author who bitterly resents Mr. Lewis for being more famous. In my article I pointed out that it was very meaningful that Mr. Lewis introduced the Telmarines before the Calormenes. The Telmarines appear to have been of European ancestry; and the bad institutions they created in the Narnian universe were _exactly_ like bad institutions that have existed in real-world Europe, including Mr. Lewis' native United Kingdom. Thus we see that Mr. Lewis "bashed" HIS OWN RACE before "bashing" brown people. This should be enough, all by itself, to shut up slanderers like Pullman. (Note, Out.of.the.Blue, I'm not saying that YOU have any such evil motivation as I am convinced that Philip Pullman has.)

[Princey]

I love the His Dark Materials books by Philip Pullman, but I CANNOT see where he is coming from by saying C.S. Lewis is racist. I agree with you Copperfox, but I don't exactly know what you mean by saying Philip Pullman has an 'evil motivation'. Could you please explain? :)

[Copperfox]

Princey, I forget if you are a Christian or not; but I can tell you that Philip Pullman has written vicious things not only against Mr. Lewis but against the Christian faith generally. He doesn't just disagree with it, he attacks it; and in attacking, he doesn't just offer valid criticism of the faults of professed Christians, he makes FALSE accusations claiming that Christianity by its very nature promotes evil. If Douglas Gresham were following this thread, HE'D have plenty to tell you about Pullman.

[Copperfox]

Okay, after posting my immediate reply to Princey, I did some digging to find the article I had written refuting Pullman. Here is a portion of it, in which I quote Pullman's anti-Lewis article and give my rebuttals.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

PULLMAN SAYS:

One of the most vile moments in the whole of children's literature, to my mind, occurs at the end of "The Last Battle," when Aslan reveals to the children that "The term is over: the holidays have begun" because "There was a real railway accident. Your father and mother and all of you are - as you used to call it in the Shadowlands - dead." To solve a narrative problem by killing one of your characters is something many authors have done at one time or another. To slaughter the lot of them, and then claim they're better off, is not honest storytelling: it's propaganda in the service of a life-hating ideology. But that's par for the course. Death is better than life; boys are better than girls; light-coloured people are better than dark-coloured people; and so on.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

JOSEPH RAVITTS REPLIES:

So Christianity is a "life-hating ideology," because it believes in
life continuing beyond death instead of being absolutely cut off as soon
as the earthly body perishes. By Pullman's own reasoning, if I hire you
for a permanent job instead of hiring you for only one day and then
firing you, this means I have an employment-hating ideology. But
perhaps Pullman is imagining that Lewis' heroes would have lived
on forever IN EARTHLY LIFE if their train hadn't crashed. Some
such nonsense must be in his mind for him to assert that an offer
of endless and joyous life in Heaven constitutes a belief that death
is better than life. (Note also that Scripture says death, not life, is
the last enemy which will be destroyed.) Meanwhile, notice that he
adds a repetition of his racism and sexism charges; repetition, after
all, is a beloved tactic for the propagandist in the service of a Heaven-
hating ideology. Atheists have their own litany.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

PULLMAN SAYS:

There is no shortage of such nauseating drivel in Narnia, if you can face it.
There is the loathsome glee with which the children from the co-educational school are routed, in "The Silver Chair"...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

JOSEPH RAVITTS REPLIES:

But Pullman seems to have been untroubled by the loathsome
glee with which those bullies had enjoyed tormenting smaller children
with impunity until finally receiving a hugely-deserved yet non-lethal
comeuppance. I don't think Pullman wants you to think about a real-
world FACT which HE KNOWS to be true: the fact that evil conduct
by schoolchildren HAS increased as the Experiment House approach
has grown more commonplace. Note further how Pullman implies
that Lewis regarded Experiment House to be bad _because_ it was
co-educational; but Lewis made it _very_ clear that what made it
bad was the refusal to hold children accountable for bad behavior.
Pullman himself knows this; and he also knows that, if it were up
to him to stamp out the racism he professes to hate, he would need
to hold children accountable for any intentionally racist actions or
they'd never learn better.
He still isn't finished shooting himself in the foot...
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

PULLMAN SAYS:

There is the colossal impertinence, to put it mildly, of hijacking the emotions that are evoked by the story of the Crucifixion and Resurrection in order to boost the reader's concern about Aslan in "The Lion, The Witch And The Wardrobe."
And in The Last Battle, notoriously, there's the turning away of Susan from the Stable (which stands for salvation)...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

JOSEPH RAVITTS REPLIES:

Since Aslan is supposed to BE Jesus Himself, there's nothing impertinent about guessing that He might extend His sacrificial act into another world as depicted. And Susan was NOT "turned away" from the Stable, because she wasn't AT the Stable TO be turned away. She had not gone with her siblings and Eustace and Jill on the train, so she was still in England with her ultimate destiny not yet finalized. Lewis did not rebuke Susan for wanting to be an adult; she had BEEN an adult in Narnia. Her sin was in desiring a shallow, materialistic VERSION OF maturity. To argue that Lewis despised adulthood per se is to argue that Lewis considered all the brave soldiers whom he admired from his war experience to be childish.

[Princey]

Wow. Pullman DOES seem vicious about all this...you're right Coperfox, he attacks it and doesn't disagree with it.
And I'm a Catholic and quite a regular church goer :)

[Copperfox]

Think about the "Republic of Heaven" concept in Pullman's "Dark Materials" series. Think about his desire to eliminate the very notion of a Supreme Being. He doesn't so much want to lift people up as to pull God down.

[timbalionguy]

I think Lewis made the Calormens dark-skinned to add to their mystique. Considering that the Calormen culture has in it a lot of the Turkish and Middle Eastern cultures, having them dark-skinned only makes sense.

The Calormens were not crude in any way, shape or form. They had a very sophisticated society. They obviously had a good grasp on the various sciences. Their mastery of arts may be the best in all of the world of Narnia. Their grasp of military science was very good, but I bet the Narnian army could have decimated them. As such, the Calormens had a lot og good going for them. Now, if we could only get rid of that doggone Tash......

[Copperfox]

Timbalionguy, are you following my story in Writing Club, about tigers and the speculated origin of the Calormenes?

[timbalionguy]

Timbalionguy, are you following my story in Writing Club, about tigers and the speculated origin of the Calormenes?

No, but I will have to have a look! (I don't have time to read all the forums here.)

[Copperfox]

My story imagines early activity by Tash in the Narnian world, as this devil stirs up strife among Narnians. Tash's real strategy is more subtle than merely inducing one group to attack another without cause; exploiting the _consequences_ of that violence, he singles out one of the offenders to use as a tool for other purposes altogether: purposes concerning the creation of the Calormene civilization that will worship Tash.

[Son of Adam]

Several books that I have read regarding the life of C.S. Lewis and his writings of Narnia have stated that the Calormene culture indeeds comes from the Arabic lifestyle and politics as Lewis saw it or as was perceived in the 40s and 50s. It is not a statement regarding how he felt about Arabs, but rather the culture and civilization of the middle eastern area altogether.

[Copperfox]

I don't care who hates to hear it: some cultures ARE morally better than others. Slavery, for example, has existed on EVERY inhabited continent except maybe Australia; but Judeo-Christian civilization renounced it where others continued it. There are Muslim nations RIGHT NOW, notably Sudan, in which during our lifetimes people have been bought and sold as property WITH APPROVAL from the government. And in India, certain Hindu temples RIGHT NOW are being permitted to buy little girls and train them to be slave-prostitutes.

[inkspot]

When Lewis was explaining the importance of right living in Mere Christianity, he said the more like God we become, the clearer our vision of God becomes -- and so it is no wonder that horrible cultures serve horrible gods; their own cruelty and meanness clouds their view of God in a visiou circle, they think God is mean, so they act mean ... It's an interesting concept, when you look, for example, at the treatment of non-Arabs in Sudan or women in Saudi Arabia. They have horrible brutality in daily life, and so their vision of God is one of horrible brutality, a God who must be constantly feared.

But Lewis didn't blame them; he felt once they had a clearer vision of God, their behavior, too, would begin to change, as they became more like Him. Aravis is a great example; she was transformed by Aslan once she realized Who He was.

[Copperfox]

Of course they can change! At this very minute, in our modern world, there are men serving Jesus with a whole heart, ready to die for Him and ready to live in kindness to all His children--yet who, before the Holy Spirit reached their hearts, had themselves been cruelly persecuting Christians and other innocent victims.

[Hermit of Archenland]

I think it's pretty clear Lewis disliked certian aspects of Middle Eastern culture. He distilled these to create the anti Narnian society of Calormen and gave them a dark skin colour just to fit in with the culture he created. It's not a problem unless you're so hypnotised by political correctness that having any non white villians is seen as racist. But other villians like the Telmarines are clearly of white European origin so the charge really does not hold water.

Pullman's vicious attacks on Lewis and Narnia seem almost demented and I suspect a large element of envy is involved.

His other accusation of sexism is equally absurd as the Chronicles abound with examples of strong, resourceful, independent heroines. Lucy in particular has to be the least stereotypical heroine in children's literature. Ironically Susan is the only major character to fit the conventional damsel in distress role and look what happened to her

[Darth Sparhawk]

I think that Lewis is neither racis, not sexist. He showes things in a fantasy realm. Some of them correspond with reality, but that's how the things are. A culture is very sick if it fears the truth.
About Mr. Pullman, he is, as other member pointed, demented.

[umbrellaxscenexcore]

ok... i'm kinda getting this...a bit complicated but...yeah...why is Pullman so against lewis??? did he know him?

[Hermit of Archenland]

ok... i'm kinda getting this...a bit complicated but...yeah...why is Pullman so against lewis??? did he know him?

I don't think so. Pullman just loathes everything Lewis and Narnia stand for, being a militant athiest. His Dark Materials trilogy is very much a kind of anti Narnia. In it the Church is depicted as a force of evil and God as a deceiver who has fooled his worshippers into thinking he is the all powerful creator. At the end Pullmans heroes kill "God" who is depicted as decrepit and pathetic. I think that gives a pretty clear idea of his philosophy and why he hates Narnia.

The nearest fantasy writer I can compare him with is Michael Moorcock, whose Eternal Champion series had similar themes. Only Moorcock had a humour and tolerance that is a far cry from Pullmans strident diatribes.

[Copperfox]

Even Moorcock lost any tolerance he had when he wrote his sci-fi novelette "Behold The Man." That is a story about a time traveller going to the time of Jesus, and finding out that Jesus was a nobody--so the time traveller himself ASSUMES THE ROLE of Jesus, only to die knowing that it was all for nothing.

"If you DON'T believe in God, you'll believe ANYTHING": so with Moorcock. In the course of "proving" that the New Testament is bogus, he expects his readers to believe something more absurd than any miracle, as I shall explain--

Think about fishermen who live their whole lives on or near a large freshwater lake that has beaches all around. There would scarcely be any action more commonplace for them than launching boats into the water from the beaches, and pulling them ashore later. Therefore, every one of them would wade in shallow water thousands of times, and see others doing it thousands of times. Not being blind, they would know what a man wading in shallow water looks like. But Michael Moorcock contrives a situation for his time traveller posing as Jesus, one which Moorcock clearly wants us to believe could have happened in reality apart from the sci-fi element. He imagines the Jesus-impersonator wading in shallow water...and onlookers experiencing an optical illusion that he is walking ON TOP OF the water! Anyone who is so desperate to disprove miracles as Moorcock here shows himself to be is plainly NOT an intellectually honest person.

[Hermit of Archenland]

I forgot about Behold the Man. But offensive as I found that to be, somehow Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy is much more hateful. Moorcock never seemed to to have quite the same viciousness against religion as Pullman, and he never had the obvious desire to pull down the work of another writer as Pullman has towards Lewis.

[Copperfox]

Besides everything else Pullman is guilty of, does he not portray his heroine Lyra as experiencing strong sexual feelings in her _early_ teens? Does he not claim that this represents liberation from religious oppression?

Pullman probably thinks he's being a bold stand-alone hero; but in fact, he's just floating on the tide of licentiousness. Reminds me of Mr. Lewis' observation about people "crowding to that side of the boat that is already nearly gunwale under."

[Hermit of Archenland]

Besides everything else Pullman is guilty of, does he not portray his heroine Lyra as experiencing strong sexual feelings in her _early_ teens? Does he not claim that this represents liberation from religious oppression?



I think I remember something like that , but to be honest Pullmans' writing never really made much impression on me, apart from my distaste for his anti Christian invective.

He's a far cry from Lewis, or even from someone like Ursula LeGuin, who despite embracing a decidedly non theist philosophy still has the power to grip the imagination with her writing

[Copperfox]

When I read LeGuin's "The Tombs of Atuan," I was disappointed but not surprised that Ged revealed the falseness of the dark gods to the priestess, but did NOT go on to point her to the real God. Still less was I surprised when the TV movie of Earthsea inserted a romantic relationship between Ged and the priestess.

[Darth Sparhawk]

Copperfox, Pullman and Moorcock are communists, I'm not definetly sure about Pullman, but I'm positive about Moorcock. I wish that these people have seen the atrocities of their beloved idea.
Moorcock, though, as a writer IMO is weaker than Pullman. Pullman may hate Lewis, yes, but he tries to write well. Moorcock reads like short story published in magazine.
I dislike both, however. I don't like le Guin either.

[Hermit of Archenland]

Please don't get me started on the subject of the Earthsea TV movie; that was appalling!

Back to the subject of Lewis and his critics, it really surprised me, as soon as the new film was mooted, just how many people crawled out of the woodwork to attack his reputation and the status of the Chronicles. It's not just Pullman; there's also the well known humanist columnist Polly Toynbee whose vituperative hatred of Narnia almost matches Pullman's. It's a sad reflection on our society that something which has been a delight and inspiration to so many people, both children and adults, could be the target of such unreasoning hatred

[Copperfox]

>> Copperfox, Pullman and Moorcock are communists...

I'm busted! (-:


Seriously, Hermit is right about that unreasoning hatred. It was the hatred of the pagan mob in Ephesus mindlessly chanting "Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!" G.K. Chesterton wrote about this hatred, saying that the haters of God would smash their own tools trying to smash Christianity.

[Darth Sparhawk]

Copperfox, I'm glad that you like it :p On a serious note, I hope that you understand what I have tried to say, rather clumsily, I admit. Sorry if I have offended you :(
Hermit, not only in modern society. Always when people can't love, they hate. I have had the sad opportunity to clash many time with haters of various things. I found them disgusting, pathetic, and in the same time pityful human beings.
Narniua, however, continue to be inspiration for many people, much more than the haters. :)

[NarniaPrincess1024]

^^Yeah what she said lol^^

[Hermit of Archenland]

Hermit, not only in modern society. Always when people can't love, they hate. I have had the sad opportunity to clash many time with haters of various things. I found them disgusting, pathetic, and in the same time pityful human beings.
Narniua, however, continue to be inspiration for many people, much more than the haters. :)

You're right, it's not only modern society. Sadly such attitudes seem to be part of our fallen human nature. Maybe such people are subconsciously motivated by envy for a faith and hope they cannot bring themselves to share

[Cyon Corell]

Trying to lighten up the conversation: Anybody have a Ouija Board. Perhaps we could use it to resolve the issue that appears to be troubling everyone here?

Cyon

[inkspot]

Trying to lighten up the conversation: Anybody have a Ouija Board. Perhaps we could use it to resolve the issue that appears to be troubling everyone here?

Cyon
You mean, by contacting CS Lewis beyond the grave to ask if he had problems with Turks and Arabs? I don't think that would work. :( And for the Christians here, we are forbidden to try to contact the dead that way.

[Copperfox]

On some earlier thread, a forum member told about sensing the demonic forces lurking behind the use of a Ouija board. That's no light matter.

When we imagine magic in Narnia, we are imagining a setting where God Himself is _allowing_ magic to be practiced, and keeping it under His supervision. But in our world, it is precisely the forces of evil which want people trying to have magic powers in reality and not just as a fantasy. The more people fall into the desire to have supernatural power that is ENTIRELY THEIR OWN, the less willing they will be to trust and obey God.

Now, before I forget, here's a small clarification for my pal Darth Sparhawk. Those who fail to love do not always hate; sometimes they just exploit. The true heart of evil is not hate, but selfishness; and while selfishness often results in hate, the hate still is a by-product while the selfishness is the root of the problem. A narcotics dealer, for instance, does not necessarily feel any hate for the customers whose lives he ruins; but he sure does exploit them for his own selfish advantage.

[Darth Sparhawk]

Yes, I agree about selfishnes... like the White Which, she wanted all to herself.
About magic, it is cool in fantasy, but in our world it is an awful, terrible thing. I might siound bizzare, but there is nothing magical about it.