The war in Iraq

[Hothir-Ethelnor]

I would like your opinions on the current war on terrorism, going on in Iraq.

Please remember that all discussions here are to be done in a friendly manner so no rude comments or angry replies.

I will let you know that I support not the war (war is always terrible) But what the war is accomplishing and will accomplish.

I will post reasons later. :)

[Aravis Kenobi]

Though I'd love to discuss this topic, two other threads were closed on this topic. Though you may request no ugly or rude comments, those can and will occur. If this wasn't something political, then it would be fine, but if I recall correctly, the political, and yes, threads discussing the war is something political and something banned.

[Jadee]

This'll get locked....I think lol

[Hothir-Ethelnor]

Oh sorry I guess this one could be deleted. I didn't read what not to post here I just thought that a subject like this might cause some hotter debate than other subjects so I put that warning in.

I just read what this section of the forum is about and ctually they say nothing against politics. but I'll just see what happens.

It could be discussed philosophicly if you wanted to.

[Aravis Kenobi]

It's ok, I didn't know either. Frankly, I'd absolutely love to debate this, but as Forgetmenot has said, this will more than likely get locked.

[Samwise Gamgee]

See I posted the same thread in this section and they closed it. Any ways coming from a millitary Kid I have simpathy with the poor Iraq children and the men that have to go over and fight. But did you know that if we were not over there that the girls would still be persicuted and the Taliban would still be ruling unjustly. I say that this was a good thing even though for a year my dad was gone to Kuwait and was so close to Iraq. Army people including my Father are my heros and even though they are volenteers I still look to them as helpers to keep our way of life going. And I think we need to bring this up, if some one has something to say they need to say it. Every on has sides and this should not be put under wrapes at all. This is a very commen subgect among Narnians and should be brought up to remeber what Freedom and rights are all about and that other people don't have the previlages that we do. I say it because it is my thoughts. I don't care if they are not liked. So there.

[Aravis Kenobi]

See I posted the same thread in this section and they closed it. Any ways coming from a millitary Kid I have simpathy with the poor Iraq children and the men that have to go over and fight. But did you know that if we were not over there that the girls would still be persicuted and the Taliban would still be ruling unjustly. I say that this was a good thing even though for a year my dad was gone to Kuwait and was so close to Iraq. Army people including my Father are my heros and even though they are volenteers I still look to them as helpers to keep our way of life going. And I think we need to bring this up, if some one has something to say they need to say it. Every on has sides and this should not be put under wrapes at all. This is a very commen subgect among Narnians and should be brought up to remeber what Freedom and rights are all about and that other people don't have the previlages that we do. I say it because it is my thoughts. I don't care if they are not liked. So there.

How ugly do some Democrats and Republicans get at election time? Pretty ugly. The reason this isn't allowed is not necessarily of the content matter, but rather of a political stance that it can take. It can be offensive to some, not to others. Please don't undermine the mods because of their jobs. They're doing it to protect the younger members. And us. That's their job, so please dont' complain about it. I would hate it if someone griped all the time just because I locked their thread. That would be my responsibility and job. A member needs to understand that.

[Hothir-Ethelnor]

Great post Aslan13! I really like how you put that and lets please try not to get this locked.

Mod's could you please wait to lock something like this until it gets a little heated? We will try very hard to show ourselves worthy of esteem and honor, in not shouting others down or slamming anyone for believing opposite of us.

[Aravis Kenobi]

Great post Aslan13! I really like how you put that and lets please try not to get this locked.

Mod's could you please wait to lock something like this until it gets a little heated? We will try very hard to show ourselves worthy of esteem and honor, in not shouting others down or slamming anyone for believing opposite of us.

This is still a political thread; whether it's geared towards actual political sides or not. I'm going to have to ask a mod about the content, not to lock it.

[Lucy the Marshwiggle]

This is still a political thread; whether it's geared towards actual political sides or not. I'm going to have to ask a mod about the content, not to lock it.
Yeah, I mean if we try not to really hard not to let it get out of hand, I think it will be okay.

[Aravis Kenobi]

I've asked holyboy to take a look; if it gets locked, then it's because of the subject matter, not because of me asking him to look at it.

[EveningStar]

Andy deferred to me because of my age and experience. I say this because I appreciate his wisdom in finding someone else when he wasn't sure what to do rather than just doing ANYTHING and hoping for the best. Hopefully my reply will justify his faith in me.

The war in Iraq has become very polarized along partisan lines, and has also become a major rift between America and its traditional allies.

What is often mistakenly thought is that the Americans are somehow arrogant for going over to "pick fights" whereas Europe has "learned its lesson" after two bloody worldwide conflicts.

Actually what you see here is a pendulum effect. Twice the United States attempted an isolationist policy. Twice America stood by while traditional allies were bombed into the ground. Only when American lives were lost as collateral damage...or outright attacked...did we react. Where Europe had two times to be sick to death of war, the United States learned two bitter lessons in trying to hide from global commitments. Bitter lessons are the hardest to forget. The United States is only what the Kaiser and Hirohito made it....a bit jumpy and paranoid.

After the bloodying stalemate in Korea and finally the nasty quagmire of Vietnam, America was ready to go hide again. Then what happened....our boys in Beirut got blasted for the crime of being American in Lebanon and then two of our skyscrapers were obliterated when planes were used as living missiles.

Don't blame the United States. In the whole nature versus nurture arguement, one can truly call the US "Daddy's baby" because it has been raised to be the way it was by circumstances all around it. People made the US angry at the world four times and then wonder why it picks fights...hmm. This is not a Republican versus Democrat arguement or even a US vs. Europe arguement. I will pointedly remind you that the president during World War II was a democrat, not a republican. The US was devoted to keeping far away from everyone else's business. In fact, Woodrow Wilson got into office on the slogan, "He kept us out of war." And then along comes the Lusitania.

With that to put it into historical perspective, I want to bottom line my position on this. As soon as it gets into who needs to be in the oval office in 2008 I absolutely will lock this thread so tight that not even light can escape. I hope I make myself absolutely clear.

War in general is something that brings out the best...and the worst...in people. Conflict is a magnifying lens that sorts out the little differences between people in peacetime, brings out the demons we hide behind the masks we wear, and also exposes the heroes and the unselfish martyrs of freedom. My father fought in World War II. So did both of my uncles. They all did their duty to God and King. Nothing to be ashamed of there.

If you warrant leniency and tolerance, I will grant it. But it is a privilege not a right. I'll be watching you. But not as Big Brother trying to squash freedom, but rather as a lifeguard keeping the sharks of politics away from the casual bathers.

ES

[Samwise Gamgee]

Great post Aslan13! I really like how you put that and lets please try not to get this locked.

Mod's could you please wait to lock something like this until it gets a little heated? We will try very hard to show ourselves worthy of esteem and honor, in not shouting others down or slamming anyone for believing opposite of us.

Thank you very much :D We are not trying to undermine the mods. Go a head and tell holyboy. I can tell you this: If any one wants to block the truth out go on a head for you. But in this Section I have seen some other threads that should be block if you want to protect the younger parts of TDL. Like [and I am just useing this for exsample no offence I hope] The abortion thread. That is way worse than War. I full do suport the War of Iraq because of what I was tought. Truth in this: There is power in words but actions speak so much louder than words as any one would know. Logicaly war is not a nice thing face the facts of it. Politics are a part of life and no one can esacpe life at all, believe me I have tried :p Can tell you one thing[and I am so bold for saying this but I don't mind.] if this thread is closed than I guess some of us who like this discustion will do PMs insead. That way it will be safer.

[Hothir-Ethelnor]

Thank you very much :D We are not trying to undermine the mods.

Yes I wasn't trying to undermine you guys at all I was just hoping this thread would get some good use.

I will post a great article on here soon that I found...

[Aravis Kenobi]

Yes I wasn't trying to undermine you guys at all I was just hoping this thread would get some good use.

I will post a great article on here soon that I found...

I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to someone else, whom I won't name, and no, Aslan13, I will not tell them about it. It's not my job, and I don't want to tattletale on another member. Abortion may be worse than war, but unlike discussions about war, it doesn't have near as much politics behind it. If we can all keep cool heads about this, then go ahead and talk. I support the war fully. We've freed millions of people. They are able to do things that eight years ago was impossible. Like voting for instance. I think we take that privilege for granted. I'm so grateful for our soldiers, who were willing to put their lives on the line both for us and for those who were wanting freedom from a cruel dictator.

[Hothir-Ethelnor]

I found this very encouraging it is from the Morningstar Prophetic Bulletin.

This article is very long so I will post one part at a time regularaly so you can get the full impact of this great message.

"Between Iraq and a hard place.

Has our policy in Iraq failed? Civil war in Iraq is now reality; it is only left to be determined how long and devestating it will be. Even though there has been a noble attempt to avoid such internal conflict, it was probably inevitable and should suprise no one. Even so, the progress toward stable and lasting reform in Iraq has been truly remarkable. in fact, things are going so well that we should not have much doubt that it is possible for Iraq to become one of the most stable and prosperous democracies in the world. This will not happen fast or be easy, but even with the outbreak of civil war we can have confidence that it will happen.

When Iraq is stable again, we can then expect to see movement toward Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt joining Iraq to form a strong alliance, for good and not evil. Eventually, they will become allies with Isreal, making the Middle East one of the most stable, prosperous, and powerful regions in the world. That may not fit with some peoples eschatology, but some eschatology does not fit with alot of Scriptures. The scenario I am describing here is plainly stated in Isaiah 19:19-25
19. In that day there will be an alter to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the Lord near its border.

20. And it will become a sign and a witness to the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cryc to the Lord because of oppressors, and he will send them a Savior and a Champion, and he will deliver them.

21. Thus the Lord will make himself known to Egypt, and the Egyptians will know the Lord in that day. They will even worship with sacrifice and offering, and will make a vow to the Lord and perform it.

22. And the Lord will strike Egypt, striking with healing; so they will return to the Lord, and He will respond to them and will heal them.

23. In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrians will come into Egypt and the Egyptians into Assyria, and the Egyptians will worship with the Assyrians.

24. In that day Isreal will be the third party with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth,

25. whom the Lord of hosts has blessed saying, "Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Isreal My inheritance."

[Hothir-Ethelnor]

Con't...

Biblical Assyria includes all of the territory
from present day Iraq to Egypt. What is
prophesied here has never happened before in
history, so we know it must happen before the
end of this age. The stage is now being set for
this. That whole region of the world is going to
become a blessing in the midst of the earth. As
incomprehensible as this may seem with the
present conflicts, it will surely happen. The sons
of Ishmael and Isaac will unite in a powerful
alliance that is a blessing to the whole earth.

Human politics or diplomacy could never
achieve this, but God’s purposes are not subject
to human politics. We must also keep in mind that
God’s victories often look like defeats to the natural
mind. The cross is the most obvious example
of this. What looked like Jesus’ total failure in
His mission was the greatest victory over evil
ever. The reverse is also true—events that have
looked for a time like great successes have turned
out to be some of the worst tragedies.

The present situation in Iraq sounds like it
is out of control, but this is mostly due to the
nature of the news coverage. Remember when
sharks seemed to be attacking beach goers in an
unprecedented way a couple of summers ago?
That year shark attacks were actually less than
normal, but because there was not much else to
report at the time, the coverage of shark attacks
was far out of proportion than usual, making it seem
that shark attacks were escalating. The media
can have a huge influence over our impressions
just by what they cover and how they cover it.

There has been good news taking place in
Iraq which the media does not report any more
than it does the good news at home. Have you
ever tried to gage the percentage of good news
on newscasts? You can watch the news for
weeks without seeing one bit of good news
reported. Almost nothing is as bad as the media
makes it seem. This constant drumbeat of
negativity has placed a pall of depression and
darkness on just about everything. If we are
going to walk in the light, we must get our
discernment from a source other than the
present news media. Some, like Fox News, have
bucked this cynical trend and their ratings soared
simply because they were trying to be fair and
balanced, actually reporting the positive side of
stories. They are like a fresh breeze in the midst
of a choking smog.

There are dozens of people dying almost daily
in Iraq, but we should be surprised this is not in
the hundreds, if not thousands. There are major
problems to overcome, but for anyone to have
expected things to work out any faster or easier
is unrealistic, especially given the factor of the
outside agitation by the insurgents. It is not
wrong to hope things go better and faster, but to
expect them to was not practical.

Also, the struggle that Iraq is now going
through will make it much stronger when the
process is over. Just as the struggle which a
butterfly endures by freeing itself of its cocoon is
the most difficult it will ever face, and without
this struggle it would not be strong enough to flap
its large wings, a government achieved without
struggle will not likely be strong enough to last
very long.

Struggle does not guarantee success, but
it does help work out the issues that would
otherwise have to be dealt with later. Major
issues are being worked out between the different
factions in Iraq right now. The violence is
illuminating the issues and forcing them to be
faced. This is dangerous, but also a crucial
process for the ultimate health of the nation.

Swift Action Wins Wars.

After two of the most brilliant, swift, and relatively
painless military victories in modern times
in Afghanistan and Iraq, America and her allies
have had a difficult time with the slow pace of
nation building. The media and rival politicians
do not help by promoting unreal expectations, an
idealism that can be the worst enemy of true
progress. It is not that we should not strive for
the highest ideals, but idealism promotes both
impatience and impractical solutions, and
can therefore be the biggest hindrance to
the step-by-step endurance that true, lasting
progress requires.

It is right to mourn the loss of a single life,
and it is right to be deeply concerned about the
difficulties and suffering that the Iraqis are now
enduring. However, all that they are going
through now will work out for good, but again, it
will not happen fast or easily. Anything that
happens too fast or too easily is almost always
insignificant, and Iraq has a significant purpose
and future.

Iraq is where the very headwaters of
civilization originated. It has been the great
and difficult struggles that have produced the
greatest achievements and advances for civilization,
and Iraq yet has major contributions in this
area. The fact that what is taking place in
Iraq now is hard or taking longer than expected,
will not discourage the truly wise, but will
only increase their resolve and thereby their
effectiveness.

Because the military victories in overthrowing
the tyrannical governments of both Afghanistan
and Iraq were possibly unprecedented in their
brilliance and execution, they did tend to breed
unrealistic expectations for their consolidation
as genuine democracies, but this is a very
worthy and important goal. Contrary to their
critics, this is not the imposition of Western
values on these nations, but rather a noble
attempt to help them gain the liberty to realize
their own destiny free from the imposition of
outside interests. Viewed from the perspective
of history, instead of through the eyes of those
controlled by “the tyranny of the immediate,”
for these two countries to have made such
quick progress is truly remarkable and borderline
miraculous.

[Hothir-Ethelnor]

Con't...

A History of Hope

Almost no one thought that either Germany
or Japan could ever become democracies
after World War II. Today they are two of the
strongest and most stable in the world. However,
even in these progressive nations it took many
years of patient and wise leadership, hard work,
and the wisdom and resolve to overcome many
seemingly impossible struggles to fully accomplish
what today people are demanding be accomplished
in Iraq almost instantly. Such impatience
is profound naivety and foolishness when
viewed in the light of history. However, the
culture in the West is increasingly addicted to
immediate results, which usually means
superficial results. This is already causing
serious problems and could very well be the seeds
of its own downfall if not corrected.

There are some Japanese companies which
have five hundred year plans. That may seem
foolish to us, but there is something very
righteous about this. The present leaders are
not just selfishly planning for themselves, but
for generations to come. This mentality also
breeds a more long-term perspective for viewing
everything, which has enabled the Japanese
to ride out political and cultural storms that few
thought they could survive.

The foundation of courage and a widespread
desire for democracy in Iraq is probably greater
than it was in either Germany or Japan after
World War II. The percentage of Iraqis who lined
up to vote, at the risk of their lives, was one of
the great and courageous events of our time.
When attacked by mortars or suicide bombers,
the voters still refused to leave the lines.
They stepped over bodies and body parts, and
said they would rather die than not vote. Many
in America will not vote if they have to go out in
the rain. Such courage and devotion to freedom
by the Iraqis has probably not been witnessed
since Patrick Henry gave his “Give me liberty or
give me death!” speech.

In spite of the difficulties and maybe because
of them, what we are witnessing in Iraq and
Afghanistan is one of the great transformations
within a culture, a veritable civilizational seismic
shift. This will not happen without some violence,
but both nations are facing it with courage and
resolve. It is hard and dangerous, but what is
happening there does have the potential to help
bring stability to the most unstable part of the
world. It is worth fighting for.

Of course, if you watch the news, you will
get a different picture from the Iraqis who are
interviewed by our media, which has been far
from fair and balanced in its coverage. It is not
likely to show the positive interviews or the
positive news. Things in Iraq and in much of the
world are very different from the way our
media portrays them, but this is old news itself,
as the media’s fallen credibility proves.

The School of Leadership

One of the great benefits of the present
struggle in Iraq is that it will also help to ensure
that America will remain strong for at least
another generation. Like it or not, agree with
it or not, war prepares the greatest leaders in
almost every field better than any other kind
of school or experience. To a large degree, the
extraordinary strength and success of America
in the last half century is due to the leaders
produced by the wars we fought. The remarkable
strength and resilience of Japan and Germany
is to a large extent due to the leadership
produced in World War II, even though they
were on the losing side. After war, almost any
problem seems small and more easily overcome.
There is a focus, resolve, and strength when in
the midst of problems which enables a warrior
to prevail where others could not.

One may point to the number of Vietnam
War veterans and protest that the experience
seriously confused and wrecked the lives of
many of them. Some are damaged like this
in every conflict, but those who are not too
psychologically wounded by the experience are
inevitably made much stronger. The rejection
showed to the Vietnam War veterans may have
contributed to more than the usual number of
veterans having serious problems, but it also
seems to have made those who overcame it
even stronger, wiser, and more resilient. Some
of the strongest leaders ever in America are
Vietnam War veterans.

War is the greatest scourge on humanity. It
is always a tragedy and represents a terrible
failure of the more noble qualities. No one
disdains war more than the military who will
bear the brunt of its scourge, but war, and the
essentials of military training, prepares the best
leaders. The discipline, courage, and understanding
of and devotion to teamwork, that our
military produces in the young men and women
is helping to prepare strong leadership for the
nation for a long time into the future, not just for
a strong military, but in every field. When there
is real conflict, such as there has been in the
Persian Gulf War and the recent and continuing
conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq, this invaluable
training is not only accelerated, but goes much
deeper into society. In the years to come, the
veterans tried by the fire in these conflicts will
start rising to the top in every field.

God forbid that we should ever want a war,
or any kind of conflict just to help train our
future leaders. But, when wars are inevitable
we must fight when we have to fight. We must
fight to win and take every advantage of them,
which includes the training of our future leaders.
Not just a strong military is necessary for
America to continue to fulfill its purpose in the
world, but also strong leaders for every field
that the military helps to produce. As the present
leader of the world, the conflicts we are now
involved in can help the U.S. to remain strong
for decades to come. If the U.S. does remain
strong and proactive in confronting threats to
world peace, it will help maintain peace and
stability in the world much longer.

Like it or not, it is the burden of leadership to
be the policemen of the world, which is in fact to
be the peacekeepers of the world. There may
have never been a more noble or capable nation
than the U.S. for doing this. What other nation
in history not only set its vanquished enemies
free, but helped to rebuild them at its own
expense? As one nation’s leader said jokingly,
the fastest way for any nation to prosper is to
start a war with the U.S., lose fast, and then get
ready for the billions in aid. The benevolence of
the U.S. toward even its enemies has been
remarkable and unique in history, even though
it is seldom appreciated, or even acknowledged.
However, whether anyone acknowledges it, it is
right that we should be this way.

We must maintain our benevolence, but for
America to fulfill its purpose it must remain
strong and aggressive. In fact, it must be a
“warrior nation.” It must be ready, willing, and
capable of taking strong, decisive action when
action is required. The enemies that civilization
itself is facing today interpret the desire to
negotiate as weakness just like Hitler did. We
are in fact dealing with the same spirit as that
which manifested in Germany in the last century.
It has one assignment—destroy the Jewish
people and the true Christians because Satan
knows very well their destiny at the end of this
age and he is doing all that he can to thwart it.

Just because those who are of the same spirit
as Hitler will be emboldened by the tendency of
their enemies to negotiate and just talk, that does
not mean we should not try to resolve things
diplomatically. But, there is a limit we should
accept before we take real, decisive action. If it
becomes known that we will take action when
talks are not going anywhere, then the talks will
have a much better chance of working.

[Hothir-Ethelnor]

Con't...

History Repeating Itself?

In 1938, British Prime Minister Neville
Chamberlain boasted that he had achieved peace
in his time by negotiating a deal with Hitler.
Within a year of that boast, war broke out
across Europe and Asia that would take more
than 100 million lives. The physical destruction
of property lost by this war was possibly greater
than all previous natural disasters and wars
combined. How could Chamberlain have been
so wrong?

The British and French felt that they had
achieved peace for their time by compromising
with Hitler. They were convinced that Hitler
had been appeased by giving him Czechoslovakia.
We now know that Hitler interpreted this
diplomatic capitulation on the part of the French
and British as a sure sign of their weakness and
lack of resolve, convincing him they could easily
be defeated. When we compromise with those
with his type of mentality, they will inevitably
press even harder for more and they will never
be satisfied until they have it all.

For a few months, Chamberlain’s diplomacy
was considered a brilliant stroke of diplomatic
genius. He was considered a hero to his nation,
and by most of Europe was even being lauded as
the greatest statesmen of his time. As they cried
“Peace! Peace!” sudden destruction came upon
them, and they were not prepared. They could
not have been more wrong. Amazingly, the same
mentality continues to grip liberal idealists
throughout Europe and America today. It seems
that if anything was learned from the terrible
wars of the twentieth century, it is that nothing
was learned.

Winston Churchill had been warning about
the threat of Nazi Germany continuously for
years. Almost no one agreed with him. Even so,
he remained resolute to the degree that he was
chided as being “an annoying drumbeat.” In the
Parliament, in the press, and in Europe, Churchill
was called “archaic, foolish, and stubborn” for
his refusal to understand that the world was too
civilized to fall into another world war. In just
months Chamberlain fell from hero to villain and
is now universally considered one of the most
naive and foolish statesmen of all time. Churchill
would ultimately be lauded as the greatest leader
of the twentieth century.

Give War a Chance

How might history have been changed if
Chamberlain had refused to negotiate with Hitler
over Czechoslovakia, but had rather met Hitler’s
aggression with military action? World War II,
with its one hundred million plus dead, and
countless other casualties, as well as its trillions
of dollars in damage, would have almost certainly
been reduced to a minor clash. When the
German generals entered Czechoslovakia, they
confessed that the Czech army fortifications were
so strong that it was unlikely that the German
army could have defeated them at that time.
While the German army was bogged down
trying to defeat the Czechs, if the U.K. and
French armies had made good their vows to
meet German aggression with an advance
from the West, Germany would have easily been
stopped in 1938, likely with very few casualties.

This is not just speculation about what could
have happened; it could have easily happened if
the political leadership of the time had been strong
and decisive instead of weak and compromising.
There would have been a conflict, but one
that would have likely cost a few thousand lives
instead of over one hundred million.

If this scenario had taken place, Chamberlain
probably would not have been lauded for a
few months as the great statesman of his time,
but could actually have been accused of being a
warmonger. No one would have known that he
had actually saved millions of lives. However, you
simply cannot lead effectively if you are overly
concerned about what human history will think
of you. God has His own history recorded in
“The Books of Life.” On that great Judgment
Day, the truth about all will be fully known. Those
are the only books that we should care about
having our names written in.

There are some people who you cannot
negotiate with and will never be appeased. The
longer you wait to confront them with resolve,
the more terrible the price the world will have
to pay for its procrastination. The difference
between Britain, France, and Czechoslovakia
confronting Germany in 1938 and 1939 was
probably more than one thousand times worse.
The world’s leaders are facing nearly the
same choices again today in regard to Iran,
North Korea, and the forces of terrorism. The
procrastination, rising pacifism, and anti-war
movements are clearly giving more boldness to
all of these enemies of our future.

Again, if anything has been learned by
the terrible wars of the twentieth century, it
is that little seems to have been learned from
them. Europeans cling tenaciously to the same
delusions that made it inevitable that the
previous wars were so destructive. The proverb
that “those who do not learn from history are
doomed to repeat it” continues to echo with no
one listening. The same voices of appeasement
and compromise are dominating the media and
political debates. No one in their right mind wants
war, but the choices we face are not whether
there is going to be conflict, but how big and how
devastating it will have to be.

If the issues of Iran, North Korea, and
terrorism in general are not faced with resolve
in the next two years, the whole world will pay
a terrible, terrible price. Instead of losing
thousands, we will lose millions. These enemies
of civilization will use our foolishness and
idealism to their own advantage, striking with
devastating resolve when they do, just as Hitler
did in 1939 and 1940. We are dealing with the
same mentality again, and there is no question
that there will be conflict. The only question is
how devastating it will have to be because of the
procrastination of those who must confront. It is
certainly good and right to love peace, but not
when there can be no peace.

[Hothir-Ethelnor]

And the rest...

Encouraging Evil

Terrorists were emboldened by the way
America fled Lebanon after the Marine barracks
bombing in the mid-1980s, and then again by how
we withdrew from Mogadishu in the early 1990s
after losing a few men. This promoted the
widespread doctrine among our enemies that if
you just inflict a few casualties on America, she
will turn tail and run. This led to the attacks on
the World Trade Center. The resolve we showed
as a nation after the 9-11 attacks sent them
reeling for a time, reconsidering this belief
about Americans. However, with the recent rise
of the “peace at any price” mentality in America,
and the corresponding impatience with the way
things are going in Iraq, they are being
emboldened again.

Like it or not, believe it or not, the present
Administration’s strategy has accomplished
something no one thought possible—it has
protected America from another major terrorist
attack for over five years. Why has no one
seemed to notice this? Hardly anyone on the
planet thought that this could be done, even
the Administration. Without question, we
have had Divine help. We need to also give
credit where credit is due. Our intelligence
community, law enforcement, military, and
the Administration’s handling of them, have
been brilliant.

It is tragic that we are losing a few soldiers
every week in Iraq. However, it is likely that
our solders in Iraq are safer there than they
would be on the U.S. highways. The safety and
protection of our forces should be high on the
priority of any commander, but the forces exist
for the safety and protection of the nation. Not
only is our way of life being threatened, but
our very lives are threatened. There are now
many thousands of radicals in this world who
believe one of the most virtuous acts they can
perform is to kill Americans or Jews. They are
focusing their lives and resources on doing
this. Many of these radicals are right now being
drawn into Iraq like flypaper, and they are
being eliminated.

It is good that we are not doing a body
count again as was tried in Vietnam. Even
so, Iraq in its present state is allowing the
elimination of hordes of those who would likely
be trying to get at Americans in other ways and
in other places, including in America. It is right,
even courageous for our present leadership not
to talk about this strategy, but it is brilliant and it
is working. You may think that this is good for
us, but not for Iraqis. But they, too, will be much
better off in the years to come if this battle is
fought now.

With the media’s constant drumbeat of why
the conflict in Iraq is going so badly, why do they
not mention that the overwhelming majority of
veterans of this conflict are for continuing it? It
was amazing to learn the high percentage of
wounded veterans here who wanted to return
to Iraq when they healed. The media has to
scour hard to find a veteran against continuing
our policy in Iraq, and then they have to wear
out their story. For so much attention and space
to be given to someone like Cindy Sheehan has
to be one of the most convincing cases for the
poverty of substance in the anti-Iraq policy
movement. For anyone who thinks about the
news and does not just accept it as presented, it
has to be obvious how the media makes a
mountain out of mole hills with any bad news.
They are not even covering the good things
that are happening in Iraq, which almost every
veteran will gladly talk about.

I am thankful to live in a country that esteems
life and takes casualties with such seriousness,
but we need to demand truth and accuracy in
reporting. America is actually losing many times
more people on our highways every day than
soldiers in Iraq. There are far less casualties
in Iraq than there were in Vietnam, and the stakes
in Iraq are many times higher. We will lose the
war against terrorism, the war for our future
existence, and tyranny will prevail in the world
if America does not become much stronger in
handling the cost of leadership and in dealing with
casualties. There will be some, and at times there
will be many. This is the cost of leadership and
liberty. The alternative is to surrender.

What Do We Do?

The upcoming mid-term elections are far
more important than possibly any other
mid-term elections in our history. As Christians,
we must be proactive in this world if we are
going to be the salt and light we are called to be.
If we do not do our part and vote, then we have
failed our own nation in a very basic way.
Vote, and become proactive in the crucial issues
facing our nation in these times. Above all, be
the salt and light by being true, living by the
highest standards of integrity and morality,
and praying for the Divine intervention that
we must have in these times. Pray for Iraq. Pray
for Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, the Palestinians, and
Israel, that now would be the time for Isaiah 19
to come to pass.

That is all, I hope you enjoyed reading this and that you were encouraged as a result. :)

[Samwise Gamgee]

Arvis, it was no big deal any ways. I don't get anlong with holyboy any ways.

[LifeMaiden]

Obviously, we don't know about the true political agenda behind the wars America gets involved in. There are things the government and politicians will never say to the public, clearly. But as for how I feel about Iraq...well, I feel that Americans should rally behind the troops and the war, because it's like a slap in the face to the troops who ARE over there fighting and dying. I remember how angry I was when the war protestors blocked the bridge in the SF Bay Area back in 1991. They had the right to protest of course, but they kept saying the US was at fault and it was all about the oil. Now some people say it's America's fault for wanting to protect ourselves and the world against terrorists?!

Has anyone stopped to think that if we supported the war and the troops, it would give the morale to win and to finally end this thing over there? It seems like we're stuck in limbo. How about people supporting our president even if we don't always agree with him or his views? Not one leader supported Bush except for the Prime Minister of England, Tony Blair, and people booed him in the UK for that. At least he had the courage to stand up and say, I support you Mr President.


The war effects everyone.

[inkspot]

Good conversation ... just a point of order.

Over in the Islam thread, I asked people not to copy and paste whole articles. It takes up a lot of space, and it usually isn't read by everyone. If you could say, in your own words, what the point of the article was that you agree with, that's great. Or if you absolutely cannot post your own thoughts without the article, then maybe post a link to it, and let us read it if we want to.

We are really here in part to listen to each other's views, not necessarily what some political leader or newspaper pundit has to say. So. Carry on. Thanks.

[Copperfox]

ALL of the deaths our forces have suffered this ENTIRE time in Iraq are still fewer than the death tolls on many SINGLE DAYS in past wars. Ultra-hyper- leftwing journalists in America dwell and dwell on the casualties, WITHOUT letting it be known how much good our personnel achieve in return for the sacrifice...because these journalists would rather that America lost a war and became MORE vulnerable to terrorism, than that a President not of THEIR preferred party should enjoy any success.

[LifeMaiden]

ALL of the deaths our forces have suffered this ENTIRE time in Iraq are still fewer than the death tolls on many SINGLE DAYS in past wars. Ultra-hyper- leftwing journalists in America dwell and dwell on the casualties, WITHOUT letting it be known how much good our personnel achieve in return for the sacrifice...because these journalists would rather that America lost a war and became MORE vulnerable to terrorism, than that a President not of THEIR preferred party should enjoy any success.

We seem to be the only country in the world who is standing up to Islamic terrorism and terrorism of all forms. That's what makes me angry about this war...we need to be supporting the war effort even if don't agree with everything else about our administration. Men and women who are soldiers, journalists, and civilians are dying over there!! A little over 2000 soldiers have died in Iraq...I think the casualties for Vietnam was 60,000....Korea about the same, and WW II about 450,000.

[Samwise Gamgee]

Ok well here is an artical from Washington Post:

BAGHDAD - The signs of the militias are everywhere at the Sholeh police station.

Posters celebrating Moqtada al-Sadr, head of the Mahdi Army militia, dot the building's walls. The police chief sometimes remarks that Shiite militias should wipe out all Sunnis. Visitors to this violent neighborhood in the Iraqi capital whisper that nearly all the police officers have split loyalties.

And then one rainy night this month, the Sholeh police set up an ambush and killed Army Cpl. Kenny F. Stanton Jr., a 20-year-old budding journalist, his unit said. At the time, Stanton and other members of the unit had been trailing a group of Sholeh police escorting known Mahdi Army members

I think that Politics are so chessie bec ause they don't play it safe but try to win elections and other things by bashing the compation and making people think that it really happened or what ever. I think they are the ones that should set some exsample.

[Copperfox]

I urge you to read the Washington TIMES rather than the Washington Post. The Washington Post, several years ago, used its _children's_ section to run a large and aggressive propaganda piece in favor of re-defining marriage.

Remember the line in "The Incredibles," "When everyone is super, no one will be"? Likewise, when every relationship enjoys the special sacredness of marriage, none of them will. Since the Washington Post eagerly supports the elimination of the traditional family, I will neither let them have any of my money, nor heed their views on American foreign policy.

[inkspot]

We seem to be the only country in the world who is standing up to Islamic terrorism and terrorism of all forms. That's what makes me angry about this war...we need to be supporting the war effort even if don't agree with everything else about our administration. Men and women who are soldiers, journalists, and civilians are dying over there!! A little over 2000 soldiers have died in Iraq...I think the casualties for Vietnam was 60,000....Korea about the same, and WW II about 450,000.
Mrs. Cheney asked Wolf Blitzer on CNN outright if he wanted the US Troops to win -- the coverage of this war is so stilted toward making us the bad guys, it was really a legitimate question. Blitzer resoundingly said YES, he wants the US to win, but it is obvious the media's main desire is to see the troops withdrawn in humiliation and our administration eating crow. The media wants us to believe they support the troops, but not the war, but is this even possible? How can you say you support the troops, when in fact, you want them to lose the war? Would any member of the Greatest Generation in the middle of WW II have said, "I support our troops, but they never should have been sent overseas to try to stop Hitler, and it would be better if they were brought home now"? Of course not! Yet that is what our media expects us to say ... It's craziness.

[EveningStar]

Partisan rivalries have grown so heated and so bitter that it is no longer possible to listen to the news objectively anymore. The problems with America all come home to the invididual citizens. What have we, as individuals, done to allow these hatreds to turn into institutions where even the evening news is suspect? And what can we do to restore health and balance?

[Samwise Gamgee]

The worst thing about our nation's politics is this: They kick G-d out of the picture! In California[I think] they are trying to get the Nation's pledge redone! What an out rage, that is to Christians is not far:mad: And I feel bad for Pres.Bush, what heat he has to take on. I am sooo glade he was made Pres.Again but sad that his trem is all most over :(

[The First Joke]

The worst thing about our nation's politics is this: They kick G-d out of the picture! In California[I think] they are trying to get the Nation's pledge redone! What an out rage, that is to Christians is not far:mad: And I feel bad for Pres.Bush, what heat he has to take on. I am sooo glade he was made Pres.Again but sad that his trem is all most over :(
amen. i support some stuff about the war. but other things, i think, aren't so good about the U.S. involvement.

[General Oreius]

ALL of the deaths our forces have suffered this ENTIRE time in Iraq are still fewer than the death tolls on many SINGLE DAYS in past wars. Ultra-hyper- leftwing journalists in America dwell and dwell on the casualties, WITHOUT letting it be known how much good our personnel achieve in return for the sacrifice...because these journalists would rather that America lost a war and became MORE vulnerable to terrorism, than that a President not of THEIR preferred party should enjoy any success.

You are absolutely right, Copperfox! That is one thing that really riles me about the media in regards to the war. I believe LifeMaiden listed the casualties for Vietnam, Korea, and perhaps World War II, but I have not seen ANYONE in the media go back to the number of casualties the Civil War produced. Granted, it was not against a foreign country/power, but there were around 600,000 AMERICAN lives lost in that war with a very high daily number of deaths compared to this war. Honestly, I think the problem lies back in the Vietnam days where, it seems, we found out how terrible war can be and some got the feeling that war is SOOO terrible that it shouldn't even be a part of the human vocabulary. I'm afraid this is what mostly lies behind the media's anti-war bias, and I don't believe it will end anytime soon.

[Sir Benjamin the Lion]

The worst thing about our nation's politics is this: They kick G-d out of the picture! In California[I think] they are trying to get the Nation's pledge redone! What an out rage, that is to Christians is not far:mad: And I feel bad for Pres.Bush, what heat he has to take on. I am sooo glade he was made Pres.Again but sad that his trem is all most over :(
REd Skeleton, a comidian, Said that wouldn't be sad if someone wanted to take those words out of it. HE must be like a prophet.

I(an individual) Pledge(to give all my worldly goods wthout self pity) Allegaince(your laoyalty, to obligate) to the flag(Our Symbol, Old Glory) of the United States of America(The States that joined together to form our United states) One Nation(One country with a common interest) Under God(That we as a Nation are under the authority of God) Indivisible(Undivided) with Liberity(Freedom) and Justice(Justice guys, Laws that benefit the nation) For All(For All) :D

[Ephinie]

Since this is the war in Iraq thread... I just wanted to direct everyone's attention to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9kJ5IBFZmY&mode=related&search=

[Nightfire]

I have two opinions on the war, really. One opinion is on a Democratic angle, not having the war. War is a terrible, terrible thing, and that Bush should stop it. Osama Bin Laden and Suddam Hussein are out of Iraq, and so why should the war continue?
Another opinion is on a Republican angle. If we stop, they may return. But I think both are dead. So, overall, I am at a Democratic angle and think they should stop.
kasenead

[Sir Benjamin the Lion]

Wow! this is still going. War on Terror not Iraq, change the title. WE Chase Osama till we catch him. I have a question for those who think he's dead. Who's that imposter playing him on the tapes?

[General Oreius]

It's him. Plain and simple, unless he has a REALLY good impersonater, but I don't think that's possible.

[Shadow Hawk]

SOOOOOOO! What does that mean we need to DOOOO!
*yells* K-I-L-L---H-I-M! :D

[The First Joke]

what do you guys think about sadaam now?

[Shadow Hawk]

what i'm think is beyond your worst fear...............TORTURE!!!! then we KILL him.

[Caspian X]

Hey this is kind of degrading.

Why don't we stay on topic.

I would have to say that quitting our policy in Iraq right now would be far more damaging to our reputation in the world than continuing it. If we pull out and leave Iraq to militant governments and terrorists the world would be getting on our backs for going in "tearing up a country" with war and then pulling out to leave the remaining suvivors to fend for themselves.

Get what I mean?

my two cents right now. :)

[Sir Benjamin the Lion]

Agreed. Stay beat them. Kill Osama, and come home with his head. That is VICTORY!!!! I like VICTORY!!!!

PS. Prince Caspian X Love that Banner.

[Samwise Gamgee]

Now that is what Visctory is. We don't need to be pulled out of a task untill it has been completed. Stay untill this Saddam thing is taken care of, yes sir that is the right thing to do. Fiddle cakes and oats, Iraq was just a mess before. I thinl our troops are doing a great deal of good over there.

[Sir Benjamin the Lion]

It's not SADDAM it's Ben Ladin. Osama Ben Ladin. We got Saddam.

[Samwise Gamgee]

No no you don't get what I mean. People in Iraq are squarming because of Saddam's sentice. There could be a civil war over there.

[Shadow Hawk]

There could Be????? there IS. Iraqians are fighting Iraqians..... or in other words Al-quida(which some are Iraqians) are fighting the ones who want freedom.