Adam And Eve

[office]

Well sorry if there is already a thread like this. Well talk about all your feelings on Adam And Eve here.

Ok,first off how long do you think us humans could`ve lasted sinless if Adam and Eve hadn`t eaten the apple? I don`t think very long.

[Aslan's Son]

Well sorry if there is already a thread like this. Well talk about all your feelings on Adam And Eve here.

Ok,first off how long do you think us humans could`ve lasted sinless if Adam and Eve hadn`t eaten the apple? I don`t think very long.

Basically, humanity wouldn't even exist if Adam and Eve hadn't eaten the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The process of childbearing was a curse God placed on women, just as he cursed man to toil the fields and work for a living. If Adam and Eve hadn't eaten the fruit, then the earth would still be perfect and untainted, and we wouldn't exist because there'd be no need for children.

[office]

Basically, humanity wouldn't even exist if Adam and Eve hadn't eaten the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The process of childbearing was a curse God placed on women, just as he cursed man to toil the fields and work for a living. If Adam and Eve hadn't eaten the fruit, then the earth would still be perfect and untainted, and we wouldn't exist because there'd be no need for children.
That`s a very good point.

[Neevil]

Basically, humanity wouldn't even exist if Adam and Eve hadn't eaten the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The process of childbearing was a curse God placed on women, just as he cursed man to toil the fields and work for a living. If Adam and Eve hadn't eaten the fruit, then the earth would still be perfect and untainted, and we wouldn't exist because there'd be no need for children.
I think I disagree with that, because God says BEFORE they sin "be fruitful and multiply." And after Adam and Eve sin He says, "in PAIN you shall bring forth children," not just "you shall bring forth children."

Well sorry if there is already a thread like this. Well talk about all your feelings on Adam And Eve here.

Ok,first off how long do you think us humans could`ve lasted sinless if Adam and Eve hadn`t eaten the apple? I don`t think very long.
Humans are not sinful because they sin, they sin because they're sinful. So I don't think they could have lasted very long without sinning.

[Aslan's Son]

I think I disagree with that, because God says BEFORE they sin "be fruitful and multiply." And after Adam and Eve sin He says, "in PAIN you shall bring forth children," not just "you shall bring forth children."


Where does it specifically say "be fruitful and multiply" BEFORE they sin?:confused: Genesis 2, where Eve's first mentioned, doesn't make any reference to this. It does say:


Genesis 20-24:

20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.


It doesn't specifically say God said "be fruitful and multiply" BEFORE they sinned, only that man and woman were of one flesh.

It's Genesis 3:16 where childbearing's first mentioned.


Genesis 3:16:
16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

[Neevil]

Gen. 1:27-28 says...
"So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

So, I think pain is the curse, not the actual child bearing.

[Narborg]

Gen. 1:27-28 says...
"So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

So, I think pain is the curse, not the actual child bearing.


I agree with Nevil. It was the pain of child bith which was the punishment, not child bith itself. We will nevwer know what would have hapened if thet didnt eat the frult.

[Aslan's Son]

I still disagree with both of you, but meh, believe what you want. It's not going to change my mind or opinion. *Shrugs.*

[Danny Darnia]

I suggest a book titled THE MADNESS OF GOD by SWAMI to answer this question

[Son of Adam]

I take it that Ged is of the Mormon faith which believes that God desired that man sin or he would not have reproduced children. In other words God placed the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil there in the firm belief and desire that he eat of it in order to reproduce. This is clearly stated in the Book of Mormon. This directly goes against the Bible in Genesis 1 as Neevil already said. This passage indicates very clearly that man was to reproduce before the fall occured, yet we know it didn't happen as man fell before they could reproduce.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Has anyone here ever read Lewis' Perelandra? That's his speculation of what the dawn of an unfallen race might have been like had a Fall not happened.

[Son of Adam]

I read it quite a few years ago. Unfortunately I don't remember the trilogy much after about 30 years or so. I no longer have a copy of it.

[Aslan's Son]

I take it that Ged is of the Mormon faith which believes that God desired that man sin or he would not have reproduced children. In other words God placed the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil there in the firm belief and desire that he eat of it in order to reproduce. This is clearly stated in the Book of Mormon. This directly goes against the Bible in Genesis 1 as Neevil already said. This passage indicates very clearly that man was to reproduce before the fall occured, yet we know it didn't happen as man fell before they could reproduce.

Mormon? I think not. I'm a Baptist, more specifically Southern Baptist. I just don't think children would've been needed, as the earth was already perfect, not what the Book of Mormon states that man sin or they couldn't have children; you've misinterpreted what I said. Nothing anyone says can sway my opinion though; I'm a very close-minded Christian, not to mention I asked my mother about it and she agrees with me.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Gee, I hope not! :) After all, you eventually have to deal with the original "Great Commission": Gen 1:27,28 - "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.'"

So you see, God didn't think the earth was perfect yet - it still needed to be "subdued" and filled with people. He created Adam and Eve to fulfill that commission.

[Aslan's Son]

Gee, I hope not! :) After all, you eventually have to deal with the original "Great Commission": Gen 1:27,28 - "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.'"

So you see, God didn't think the earth was perfect yet - it still needed to be "subdued" and filled with people. He created Adam and Eve to fulfill that commission.

That does make sense, I guess. I was just always taught by my parents that Eve was cursed with childbearing/the pain, and that it was a painful process from the start.:confused: Then again, I hardly ever crack open a Bible. But I'm still not changing my view, so again, believe what you want, but I'm sticking to my belief.

To NightMystic--please don't automatically assume a person's beliefs until they've actually stated them themselves. Thanks.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Well, the pain in childbearing was part of the curse, but that doesn't mean that the bearing of the children itself was bad - it just meant that that part of fulfilling the First Great Commission would be harder than it was originally meant to be.

Plus, there are all kinds of depths to that text. It would take an Old Testament scholar to unpack them properly, but devout scholars of both Jewish and Christian tradition have explored several levels of meaning there, so read carefully and prayerfully, and do lots of study.

Interestingly, there was a heresy in the early Church days that taught that the Original Sin was sexual intercourse, and the business about the Tree of the Knowlege of Good and Evil and the fruit was just a metaphorical reference *wink, wink*. This was condemned by the Church in light of the FGC, but it keeps cropping up. The most recent major occurrence was the Shakers, who taught that the marital union was by nature sinful. Their communities kept men and women separate.

Needless to say, there are no Shakers left.

[Narborg]

That does make sense, I guess. I was just always taught by my parents that Eve was cursed with childbearing/the pain, and that it was a painful process from the start.:confused: Then again, I hardly ever crack open a Bible. But I'm still not changing my view, so again, believe what you want, but I'm sticking to my belief.

To NightMystic--please don't automatically assume a person's beliefs until they've actually stated them themselves. Thanks.


Ged, you need to read the Bible more.Tou cant just belive what you here for others. If you want help., there a Gospel of John reading group in The Christanity and narnia section.

[Son of Adam]

Mormon? I think not. I'm a Baptist, more specifically Southern Baptist. I just don't think children would've been needed, as the earth was already perfect, not what the Book of Mormon states that man sin or they couldn't have children; you've misinterpreted what I said. Nothing anyone says can sway my opinion though; I'm a very close-minded Christian, not to mention I asked my mother about it and she agrees with me.

I did not mean to offend anyone, Mormon or otherwise. It is just that the belief spoken of here is part of the LDS statements of faith. That said, if no children were desired then God would not have told Adam and Eve to "be fruitful and multiply" in Chapter 1. The fact that they didn't reproduce until after the fall means nothing really. What matters is that God told them to and that they could have. If God didn't want any reproduction then he wouldn't have told the animal life to 'be fruitful and multiply either, and there is no evidence that they didn't during the time prior to the fall.

[Aravis Kenobi]

I think that even if Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, someone along the way would have sinned. But, ~Neevil~ had a good point.

[Neevil]

Psalm 127:3-5 says...
"Behold, children are a gift of the Lord, the fruit of the womb is a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior, so are the children of one's youth. How blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them; they will not be ashamed when they speak with their enemies in the gate."

This says that children are a GIFT from God, not a curse. Also, in Leviticus 20 it lists becoming CHILDLESS as a curse. And who can forget Hannah, who was unable to have children, and was so distressed over it? The Lord BLESSED her by giving her a child. It seems that having children is viewed as a GOOD thing, and not being able to have children is viewed as a BAD thing. If this is the case, then bearing children would not be the curse God put on women. Also, take a look at Adam's curse. God says in Gen. 3:17-19...

"Cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shalll grow for you; and you will eat the plants of the field; by the sweat of your face you will eat bread, till you return to the ground, because from it you were taken; for you are dust, and to the dust you shall return."

Now before the Fall, God told Adam and Eve they could eat from all the plants in the garden (except of course, the Tree of th Knowledge of Good and Evil). When God curses Adam, He says he will now eat by the sweat of his face. Eating food is not the curse, working for it is. It's the same with Eve. Child birth is not the curse, pain through it is.

[Aravis Kenobi]

That's such a good post, ~Neevil~ You come up with passages I'd never even thought of.

[Neevil]

That's such a good post, ~Neevil~ You come up with passages I'd never even thought of.
Thanks, I was thinking about this thread all afternoon... and I used the concordance in my new Bible to find the verses! I just got my Bible this afternoon, so this was the first time I got to use it :D I'm so excited about it! It's a really cool Bible, and it has my name on it! I know this is off topic, sorry... I'm just really happy about my Bible :D

[Aravis Kenobi]

I know. I like it when I get a new Bible. It's exciting!

[Aslan's Son]

I never said that I believed children were a curse; in fact, I believe they're a blessing. My personal belief though is that childbirth was part of the curse placed on man and that the process of childbirth was a painful one from the start. Basically, what Night Mystic said sums up my belief: "Childbirth was part of the curse on man, and God didn't need man to reproduce while within Eden." I believe the verse listed in Chapter 1 of the book of Genesis is directed at the animals, not man. Besides -- if Adam and Eve were to procreate while in the Garden of Eden, then why didn't they? There's no mention of Adam and Eve procreating until after they were cast out of Eden.

I have read all the responses to my posts and have thought on them...and I just can't bring myself to believe the interpretation you've all put in front of me. People have their different interpretations of the Bible -- some believe in an old earth, some believe in an old earth. Some believe in a post-millenial rapture and some a pre-millenial. I believe what I believe, you all believe what you believe. I say in love that you can all believe what you wish, but I believe what I believe because that's how I choose to believe. If I wish to change my interpretation, I'll do so because I want to, not because you all harass me about my interpretations and tell me to change my views. If you don't mean to sound like that, then alright, but that's what it seems like to me.

Basically, it seems we'll all just have to "agree to disagree." If I should be told by God to change my view, then I do so, but since He hasn't, then I'm not. In all words, there's really no reason to throw Scripture out at me, because I interpret the verses differently than all of you do, and my belief that Adam and Eve didn't need to reproduce while in Eden still holds strong. That said, I respectfully say I am done posting in this thread, much less reading it.

Best wishes,

Jacob

[Neevil]

It's okay, calm down ;). I know you didn't say children were bad, but you did say child bearing was a curse on women, and there seems to be quite a few passages that indicate the opposite. I was just pointing them out. :)

[office]

Wow! These are such suffistacated( Did I spell it right?) posts. I I should be reading the bible more.

[Aravis Kenobi]

As long as you say what God tells you to, office, you're right as rain. Just make sure you have Scripture to back it up. Or ask someone for help on stating a post.

[Parthian King]

I just don't believe children would've been needed had Adam and Eve not sinned. I'm not going to change my "theology" of sorts just because someone tells me to. If I want to change it, I'll do it on my own accord and because I want to; like I also stated, I'm not changing my opinion and if God tells me to change it, then I will. But until then, I'm sticking with what I've said. To summarize my post--I'm done posting in this thread. Good day.

Whoa there, Ged. No one is ordering you to change your theology. It's just a discussion.

Now, here's my position on this:

Sin is lawbreaking, yes? Meaning, sin is refusing to keep the commands of God, rebelling, going your own way, cooking up your own plan, thinking you can do it on your own. Wouldn't you agree?

Now, the first command of God--given in Genesis 1 is as follows:

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”--Gen 1:26-28

Meaning, before sin ever entered the picture (see Genesis 2-3), God intended for humanity to share with Him in the creative process through procreation. The fact that He made them male and female is more than a clue that this was His intention--remember, He called human sexuality (meaning the ability to have children through male and femaleness) good, in fact, He called it very good--the only time that extra adjective is added (Gen 1:31).

So my point is, if God commanded them to procreate, and sinlessness means obeying God's commands, how can having children be out of the picture before sin enters? Isn't it rather the opposite? Wouldn't the deliberate failure to have children (and we must assume perfect fertility, health, etc. in an unfallen world) be a violation of this first command of God, and therefore sin?

I just find the fact that human sexuality and the command to procreate precedes the Fall to be rather compelling evidence that we all are part of a pre-Fall plan of God for the world. It isn't a question of need--it's a question of desire--God wanted us to be around! Hey, that's good news! It means children are more than just a necessary evil, or a by-product of a "plan B" after "plan A" fell through. It means some things still hold, even though Adam and Eve blew it.

[office]

As long as you say what God tells you to, office, you're right as rain. Just make sure you have Scripture to back it up. Or ask someone for help on stating a post.
Thank you very much.

[Gryphon]

It is my opinion that there is no sort of woman more beautiful than the sight of a woman with child.

There is something about a life growing in a woman's womb that fulfills her. How can that be a curse? Bringing forth and raising children is something alot of women strive for, it's something that woman have been proud of being able to do and they find a certain sense of worth in it. Bringing forth children is a blessing, not a curse...

I even hope to have children of my own someday, hopefully even a daughter. I would be proud of her and love her as well as I could. I even think that having children helps Man to better understand the characteristics of God.

As for Adam and Eve being immortal, I do not believe that they were because God sent them out of the garden so that they wouldn't eat of the tree of life and become immortal.

Gen. 3:22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

[Elendil]

Psalm 127:3-5 says...
"Behold, children are a gift of the Lord, the fruit of the womb is a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior, so are the children of one's youth. How blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them; they will not be ashamed when they speak with their enemies in the gate."

This says that children are a GIFT from God, not a curse. Also, in Leviticus 20 it lists becoming CHILDLESS as a curse. And who can forget Hannah, who was unable to have children, and was so distressed over it? The Lord BLESSED her by giving her a child. It seems that having children is viewed as a GOOD thing, and not being able to have children is viewed as a BAD thing. If this is the case, then bearing children would not be the curse God put on women. Also, take a look at Adam's curse. God says in Gen. 3:17-19...

"Cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shalll grow for you; and you will eat the plants of the field; by the sweat of your face you will eat bread, till you return to the ground, because from it you were taken; for you are dust, and to the dust you shall return."

Now before the Fall, God told Adam and Eve they could eat from all the plants in the garden (except of course, the Tree of th Knowledge of Good and Evil). When God curses Adam, He says he will now eat by the sweat of his face. Eating food is not the curse, working for it is. It's the same with Eve. Child birth is not the curse, pain through it is.

Yikes!!! :eek: Was someone calling children a curse?!?

[Son of Adam]

Yikes!!! :eek: Was someone calling children a curse?!?

Not exactly. It is that some believe (not me) that one of two things are however. Either (1) Sex was the original sin and God desired that man fall because if he didn't then there would be no children. Or (2) Childbirth itself was part of God's curse on man for having fallen and that God didn't want or need man to reproduce as long as he was living within Eden.(again not my belief)

[~Narnia~]

Well any OTHER thoughts about Adam and Even besides their first sin? I mean, can you imagine what the garden would have looked like? The got to WALK with God.. I am going to go read those chapter, take some notes.. and post here later :D

***~Narnia~***

[office]

I am going to go read those chapter, take some notes.. and post here later :D

***~Narnia~***
Great.

(10 thingy)

[Neevil]

It is my opinion that there is no sort of woman more beautiful than the sight of a woman with child.

There is something about a life growing in a woman's womb that fulfills her. How can that be a curse? Bringing forth and raising children is something alot of women strive for, it's something that woman have been proud of being able to do and they find a certain sense of worth in it. Bringing forth children is a blessing, not a curse...

I even hope to have children of my own someday, hopefully even a daughter. I would be proud of her and love her as well as I could. I even think that having children helps Man to better understand the characteristics of God.

As for Adam and Eve being immortal, I do not believe that they were because God sent them out of the garden so that they wouldn't eat of the tree of life and become immortal.

Gen. 3:22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
Ooh I like that verse. Umm, I think originally they would not have died, because they were with out sin. But God says...

(Gen. 2:16-17) "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Obviously, since Adam and Eve didn't drop dead immediately after eating the fruit, this verse isn't not referring to an immediate death. But perhaps it is referring to becoming mortal. And then of course, you quoted Gen. 3:22, which would imply similar thought. It seems kinda harsh of God to curse Adam and Eve, and then throw them out of Eden. But I think it was more loving than harsh. God said in Gen 3:22-23..

"...'and now, he might stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever--' therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden..."

God didn't kick them out because He was mad at them, but because He loved them. I think God didn't want them to eat from the tree of life, because He didn't want them to live forever in a sinful state. So now God uses plan B--sacrifices--until the appropriate time arrives for Jesus to come and sanctify us through the sheding of His perfect blood.

[Son of Adam]

Excellent point there Neevil.

[Gryphon]

Yes, Before Adam Nad Eve sinned they would have been immortal, but they DID sin and they became mortal and when that happened, God sent them out so that they would not be trapped in that state, forever seperated from Him.

I dont think that God has "plan B's" though. That is, I dont think that He didn't know what was coming... :p

[Wendygirljp]

Gryphon - Are you saying that "God is not all-knowing"? Or, are you saying that he DID know it was coming? The double-negative needs clarification for me, so I understand what you mean. (Many westerners (especially Americans) do not answer a negative question correctly, hence the need for clarification). Thank you.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Obviously, since Adam and Eve didn't drop dead immediately after eating the fruit, this verse isn't not referring to an immediate death.Actually, they did die in the manner that mattered most: they were separated from God. The ultimate separation of their souls from their bodies (i.e. physical death) took a while to catch up with that, but the death that really mattered happened immediately.

Keep in mind that from a Scriptural point of view, "Death" means "Separation" - specifically, the separation of things that were never meant to be separated. All of salvation history is one long tale of God working to reunite what should never have been separated.

And Gryphon, God knew exactly what would happen when He created Adam and Eve. Nothing surprises God.

[Parthian King]

I concure that God separated Adam and Eve from the tree of life to protect them (and us) from a perpetually fallen state. I also concur that God was not "mad" at them. However, understanding God's wrath against sin is critically important to understanding the entire story line of the Bible; without it, pretty much the whole thing makes no sense since God would be trying to solve something that doesn't need solving.

Wrath is not anger in the human sense, but the reaction of a holy God to sin (though neither should be make it so steril that there is no emotion involved on God's part). God cannot tolerate evil in His presence. Therefore Adam and Eve were banished from Eden. However, as strong as wrath is, mercy is greater. Hence the "protoevangelion" (pre-gospel) of Genesis 3:15--the promise that the Seed of the Woman would come and crush the serpent's head. As Christians we believe that this foretells Christ Jesus, and the the Old testament represents (among other things) the drama of His coming into the world--along with Satan's futile attempts to prevent it.

[Neevil]

Excellent point there Neevil.
I wish I could say I thought of it myself...but I didn't :rolleyes: It was just something interesting I learned in school a couple years ago.

I dont think that God has "plan B's" though. That is, I dont think that He didn't know what was coming... :p
Yeah I agree. I think God definately knew what would happen, but I don't think that's what He originally intended for mankind, so that's why I said plan B.

Actually, they did die in the manner that mattered most: they were separated from God. The ultimate separation of their souls from their bodies (i.e. physical death) took a while to catch up with that, but the death that really mattered happened immediately.

Keep in mind that from a Scriptural point of view, "Death" means "Separation" - specifically, the separation of things that were never meant to be separated. All of salvation history is one long tale of God working to reunite what should never have been separated.
Yeah that's true, I never thought of it like that before... Actually, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense.

[bottom]

I am well pleased that the Adam and Eve 'myth' (as in the socratic sense) is well understood and followed closely with church orthodoxy by a number of the religious-minded narniafans.

There's a question I really want to ask, please forgive my ignorance but does the other two other Abrahamic religions; Judaism and Islam, do not believe in the doctrine of original sin? If so where does their salvation lie?

I know from my historical/theological readings the 'Doctrine of Original Sin' came into fruition by St Augustine of Hippo. I for one agree with the development of church doctrine. But what annoys me is modern critics view the Doctrine of orginal Sin was pulled out of the air soley by this marvelous Saint. That is not true at all, earlier church fathers; such as Tertullian, Origen et al. made important 'rumblings' seedlings :D on the matter, and like I said it only came to full bloom by 'Gus'. Doesn't the Holy Spirit work in marvelous ways!!!

[Son of Adam]

Both Judiasm and Islam have decended from Abraham. The Jewish people, along with Christians from the line of Isaac and the Muslims from Ishmael. Salvation for the Jews is still through the keeping of the Law as given to Moses although sacrifice is not yet permitted as there is no temple. Priests have been trained to perform the sacrifices, the temple implements have been made, three 16 ton cornerstones are ready to be placed on the Temple Mount. All that is needed is a way to build the temple without causing a problem with the Islamic Mosque of Omar on the Temple Mount.

Islam's salvation comes through the reciting of the al-shahaadatain which is basically stating that there is no God other than Allah and his prophet Muhammad. Then you must follow the Qu'ran to the best of your ability which is, like Judaism a legalistic way. The Qu'ran and Islamic belief is that no other religion other than Islam will allow anyone to get into heaven. Hell awaits all who do not convert to Islam according to their beliefs.

[bottom]

Thanks Night mystic that has really helped me a lot on the salvation front, but it doesn't answer my first question, or maybe it does?? Hence deduced by the information given, the doctrine of 'Original Sin' does not apply to Judaism and Islam...

[Son of Adam]

Yes, the doctrine of Original Sin is a part of the Jewish faith but not the Islamic. Muslims do not believe in the concept of an Adam and Eve who sinned in Eden and as a result all were born with a sin nature.

[Gryphon]

Gryphon - Are you saying that "God is not all-knowing"? Or, are you saying that he DID know it was coming? The double-negative needs clarification for me, so I understand what you mean. (Many westerners (especially Americans) do not answer a negative question correctly, hence the need for clarification). Thank you.
That he DID know that it was coming, sorry for confusing everyone :D

And Neevil, I'm pretty sure I got your stance on that now, thanks. :D

[Neevil]

I just heard something really cool at church tonight that I never thought about before. Back to when we were talking about Adam and Eve "dying" from eating from the tree. When Adam and Eve ate from the tree, whet was the first thiung they realized? They were naked. So they got some leaves and covered up. Then after God curses them He makes clothes for them out of skin. But where did the skin come from? The man who was speaking at my church tonight suggested that it came from animals; but these animals acted as a sacrifice for Adam and Eve. The animal(s) died in their place. I thought that was very interesting, and it's something I never thought about before. What do you guys think?

Also, I have another question. Why did God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden? He didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from it, and if they hadn't eaten from it then it would have saved God all the trouble of sending Jesus down to die for us. So why did God put the tree there to begin with?

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Your preacher was correct in pointing out that the animals who had to die to provide the skins to cover Adam and Eve were the first sacrifice, the first blood shed to cover over the sin of man. Those unidentified animals were the first type of the Lamb, who would come and whose Blood would not just cover, but wash away, the sins of men.

For a good poetic answer to the second question, read Lewis' Perelandra, looking especially for the discussion of why there was a Fixed Land, and why Maleldil forbid Tor and Tinidril to sleep on it, and why the Un-Man kept trying to make Tinidril disobey.

[office]

Well in a place called ''Awana'',a religious place for kids to have fun and learn about God,they explained it like that God gave them clothes made out of the animals which were Adam and Eve`s friends.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

That's a way of putting it that brings it right home, doesn't it?

[office]

That's a way of putting it that brings it right home, doesn't it?
Lol. Well I was in like second grade when I heard this so they were trying to explain it in a way that we could understand.

[Son of Adam]

I just heard something really cool at church tonight that I never thought about before. Back to when we were talking about Adam and Eve "dying" from eating from the tree. When Adam and Eve ate from the tree, whet was the first thiung they realized? They were naked. So they got some leaves and covered up. Then after God curses them He makes clothes for them out of skin. But where did the skin come from? The man who was speaking at my church tonight suggested that it came from animals; but these animals acted as a sacrifice for Adam and Eve. The animal(s) died in their place. I thought that was very interesting, and it's something I never thought about before. What do you guys think?

Also, I have another question. Why did God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden? He didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from it, and if they hadn't eaten from it then it would have saved God all the trouble of sending Jesus down to die for us. So why did God put the tree there to begin with?

Two quick things. Yes, animals were sacrificed to cloth Adam and Eve, a sign that God would cover them with the blood of these animals, a picture of Jesus covering our sins with His shed blood. Also, man (Adam and Eve) did not provide for their own sacrifice here. God is the one who first shed blood for them. God slew the first animals. He sacrificed the animals and He did it because He loved them and us.

Why was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil placed in the garden. Because without that tree there, free will would have meant nothing. Adam and Eve would have been in the garden with no chance of ever having to make a choice about what path their lives would take. With the tree there God gave them the right of free will, the freedom to choose. God always provides us with a choice even if it means we turn our backs on Him.

[Neevil]

How do you guys know so much? It seems like when ever anyone has a question, you always have an answer. Thanks POTW and NM, that was very enlightening. :D

[Son of Adam]

You are welcome Neevil. I;m glad I could help in some small way.

[Gryphon]

Okay, here's an interesting thought that I had.

I was in speech class and we talk about human communication. In our textbook it talks about noise in communication. Noise can be anything that interfers with communication. It can be physical, audible, psycological. Anything that hinders or messes up communication. It is also impossible to eliminate all of the noise.

I think (and this is my theory) that when Adam and Eve sinned, it created this noise. Not only between Man and Man, but God and Man as well. I also believe that when we get to Heaven it will not only eliminate the noise between Man and Man, but God and Man and we will be able to communicate on a level that was never before possible becuase the noise will be gone.

Thoughts anyone? :D

[Wendygirljp]

I guess my question would be, "what do you see as "noise"? In my personal perspective ONLY, I can agree with your concept.

Communication is a set of patterns. If we do not recognize these patterns, the language is "foreign" to us, whether it be an aural language, manual or written. In spiritual issues, that communications "noise" you mention COULD be that of EGO (the protector attempting to make the persona NOT a true self, but that which is protected by being "greater than" or "distant from" another - in this case the God concept. That, in a spiritual term could be seen as communicative noise, I think. "Speaking" from the heart instead of the brain (mind instead of brain, if you wish) would be a more "pure" form of that communication.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Okay, here's an interesting thought that I had.

I was in speech class and we talk about human communication. In our textbook it talks about noise in communication. Noise can be anything that interfers with communication. It can be physical, audible, psycological. Anything that hinders or messes up communication. It is also impossible to eliminate all of the noise.

I think (and this is my theory) that when Adam and Eve sinned, it created this noise. Not only between Man and Man, but God and Man as well. I also believe that when we get to Heaven it will not only eliminate the noise between Man and Man, but God and Man and we will be able to communicate on a level that was never before possible becuase the noise will be gone.

Thoughts anyone? :DAn interesting contention indeed - noise being a consequence of sin. Of course, if you understand that separation in general is a consquence of sin, and if communication is for the purpose of uniting, then sin would by its nature tend to introduce noise into communication, hindering the unification that communication is supposed to bring about.

To extend the concept: the Tower of Babel (Gen 11), when man sinned by uniting to challenge God and enslave other men - the consequence imposed by God (i.e. the fruit of their sin) was the confusion of language (noise) and separation of the people - the "death" of the unified human family. Again, the principle which Lewis identified so often is at work: people choose sin, and the natural consequences of such disobedience follow like night follows day. The wages of sin is separation (death).

[inkspot]

Wow, that's a good thought, Gryphon, and a good exposition, PoTW. I was just reading in Mere Christianity where Jack is talking about how our conception of God, our vision of Him, only comes into focus when we are trying to walk in His ways and in communion with other believers in a community of faith. He says God reveals Himself more fully to some people, but it is not arbitrary, it is because those people are trying to find Him and have discovered how to do it -- by walking with Him and communing with others on the same path.

Sometimes I feel like I desperately want the Christ life expressed in me, but I feel nothing and sense no direction at all -- it's like that NOISE Gryphon mentioned is between Him and me, and I can barely hear Him, faint, at the edge of consciousness. Our challenge, then, is to silence that noise, to clear away the stuff that comes between Him and us, so our focus on Him will be clear.

(Interestingly, Lewis says all people have some concept of God, but of course horrible people have horrible concepts of Him, because they cannot see Him clearly -- in Gryphon's sense, the noise around them drowns Him out!)

[Gryphon]

Noise is anything that confuses or hinders human communication or distorts messages in the process of communication.

PoTW, that is an interesting add in to it. I never thought about the Tower of Bable... good point :)

[waterhogboy]

I just heard something really cool at church tonight that I never thought about before. Back to when we were talking about Adam and Eve "dying" from eating from the tree. When Adam and Eve ate from the tree, whet was the first thiung they realized? They were naked. So they got some leaves and covered up. Then after God curses them He makes clothes for them out of skin. But where did the skin come from? The man who was speaking at my church tonight suggested that it came from animals; but these animals acted as a sacrifice for Adam and Eve. The animal(s) died in their place. I thought that was very interesting, and it's something I never thought about before. What do you guys think?

Also, I have another question. Why did God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden? He didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from it, and if they hadn't eaten from it then it would have saved God all the trouble of sending Jesus down to die for us. So why did God put the tree there to begin with?

Its like a Messianic prophecy really. A sacrifice is required because of human sin!

Interesting topic this. One thing 'sort' of connected which I always wonder about - if kids could have been born in Eden, will there be childbirth in heaven??? The Bible says man and woman will not be joined in marriage, Jesus says it in answer to the Pharises, but what about procreation?

[PrinceOfTheWest]

I think Jesus response to the question posed pertained to life "at the Resurrection", that is, in the New Creation. It is then that we get new bodies ("spiritual bodies", whatever that means, though Christ's resurrected body gives us a glimpse), and it is there that procreation won't be part of life, because the species will be complete.

As far as why the tree was there - read Lewis' [i]Perelandra for some intriguing thinking about that (reading Out of the Silent Planet first will make more sense.)