Capital Punishment

[Anarnian]

I realize that this is a very basic question, but it has been bothering for quite a while: it capital punishment ethical? I realize that God gave authority to leaders to punish such things, but can humans (with our numerous imperfections) really attempt to "play God" by deciding to end others' lives'?

[EveningStar]

That is extremely touchy. I think when you said "God gave leaders authority," you put your finger on it. Clearly God is competent enough to make such a decision, and once made it cannot be revoked without saying God changed his mind or made an error.

I suggest the question should change to, "Should we continue to exercise the right of the sword?" This would suggest that, like the Jewish dietary laws (Kosher) the death penalty might be considered obsolete by mainstream Christiandom.

My answer is that now (as then), the goal of law enforcement is to prevent crime rather than to punish offenders. However some people's desire to offend makes them fly in the face of all moral and logistical barriers and act with fatal determination. Because morals and forethought did not prevent their behavior, society provides an alternative form of conscience...a loss of privilege such as confinement or (in extremis) capital punishment.

Such behavior merits an appropriate punishment. I cannot say that death is always the right answer, but I also cannot argue on Biblical grounds that it is never the right answer.

The problem occurs when people speak of capital punishment as the state playing God. The law predates the offense. You don't watch Jim kill Sally on Wednesday, make murder punishible by death on Thursday and kill Jim on Friday. In that sense, Jim, knowing that the penalty for capital murder is death, still murdered Sally. In doing so he chose to become vulnerable to the consequences. NO WESTERN SOCIETY THREATENS ORDINARY PEOPLE WITH DEATH. YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE IT. Like a debt owed a bank it is something you sign for, undertake voluntarily. You speed through a 30 KPH zone hoping you won't get a ticket, but when you DO get pulled over it is for something you volunteered to do knowing that might happen.

I find it dicey to say that capital punishment is not a deterrant because everyone who committed capital murder did so anyhow. You would have to have a truthful and accurate recconing of everyone that ever felt like killing someone even for a moment (and that's all it takes, folks!) but who were held back by a thought of the consequences. Most if not all people would be hesitant to answer such a question truthfully. Anyone with an "answer" to that question, pro death penalty or anti, is blowing smoke. It is an unknown.

John

[Narborg]

My main probalem with capital punishment is what do you do if you fiond out later that they were inasent? The other thing is, the person is going to die in the enfd anyway, so leaving them in jail for the rest of there lives is a worse punishment anyway.

Personlly, I dont like capital pumnishment, but that just me personly.

[Driad54]

I agree with capital punishment as long as it is reserved for serious wrong-doers, which it is. I believe it a way to keep crime low, because it shows the consequence of going too far and gettin caught.

[EveningStar]

Capital punishment is one of those things that operates in the absence of absolute certainty.

In saying this, I realize the very, very remote possibility that I may be in a cell someday saying that I didn't do it. I realize that, like military service, we all have to run a tiny risk to permit actions needed to protect a way of life we cherish. I realize every time I get in a car that there is no absolute guarantee I will arrive alive and unhurt. Or even alive at all. And I am sure some people would like to ban cars and airplanes.

The obstacles to an actual execution are so great that what few condemned criminals actually die have usually spent 15-20 years of appeals and had every benefit of every doubt, including the possibility of alien abduction, split personalities and seeing one's pet hamster get killed by the cat while age 5.

It's not like we're lining people up and beheading them every Thursday.

[lieke]

My problem with capital punishment is second chances. I mean, if i look at my life, i've had lost of second chances, i've never killed someone, but i've done things that didn't make God proud of me, but i got another chance. I think, if you take someone's life, no matter what happened, you take away there time for a second chance. And you take away there chance to know Christ. And i think that we're forgiven to forgive other people, and i don't mean to say that they say "i'm sorry" and get free again, but taking away their lifes is a no-going-back way. Personally i think, as a christian, that it is not my right to decide whether someone should live or die, but to forgive as Christ forgave, and praying for that person, how hard it may be. Giving them time to see what they've done and let them embrace the second chance God wants to give to them, because He loves everybody

[Neevil]

Isn't there a verse in Romans that talks about this? It's...er..hmm..let me get my Bible... Ok it's Ro. 13:4

"For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil."

So, I think the death penalty is Biblical. And its so humane now, compared to past forms of torture and execution. Being punished, even just to sit in jail for a few years, is hardly a punishment at all. Also, like ES said, they knew what the consequences were. If they want to risk getting the death penalty, or sitting in jail for the rest of their lives, that's their decision.

[lieke]

Isn't there a verse in Romans that talks about this? It's...er..hmm..let me get my Bible... Ok it's Ro. 13:4

"For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil."

So, I think the death penalty is Biblical. And its so humane now, compared to past forms of torture and execution. Being punished, even just to sit in jail for a few years, is hardly a punishment at all. Also, like ES said, they knew what the consequences were. If they want to risk getting the death penalty, or sitting in jail for the rest of their lives, that's their decision.
even if they knew the consequences, does that mean they have to be killed? If i do something wrong, most of the times i know exactly what i'm doing, and i still do it, because i'm angry or sad, but i still get a second chance, why wouldn't these people get one, even if they knew they did something wrong?

[Anarnian]

I think, if you take someone's life, no matter what happened, you take away there time for a second chance. And you take away there chance to know Christ. Yes, this is one of the main reasons I think I have a problem with capital punishment. I think of all the people who have come to Christ while in prison... I was talking to my friend's mom about this and she asked me if I believed that God could save a person on deathrow (physically) so he could be saved spiritually. And of course I do, but since God gave leader's authority... should it be our responsibility to save them and give them that chance? Sorry, I know I'm kind of just restating the question.

[LifeMaiden]

I have to be totally honest and say that I don't really know what to think about capital punishment because there are many other complications and moral issues that enter that realm...it isn't that easy to say " Well, if he or she took a life, then he or she deserves to pay with their life." The problem with that is...we know there ARE innocent people on death row, and we also know the justice system is still very racist, with far more black men on death row than white men. What if a person is genuinely sorry for taking another's life and or decides to give their life to Christ? Does that make the crime any less severe, or does that mean the person who murdered deserves to live out their life?


I could say, " Well, I'd want them to rot in prison for the rest of their lives..." but that wouldn't be a very Christian thing to say or think. And sadly, while some people don't get the death penalty for their crimes but do stay in prison for life, that comes at a great cost to the taxpayers at 30,000 plus a year to house one inmate for life.

And that's one of the other problems... is that when someone gets put on death row, many times, they just sit there for years and years, without getting executed. And the tax payers are the ones keeping these people fed and clothed.

On the other hand, when someone does take the life of another, or several others, what is the punishment that should be handed out to them? What about when it comes to serial killers or child murderers? Or people who simply do not have a conscience or care that they've taken lives? Many serial killers for example express little or no regret for their crimes, reveling in the grotesque celebrity that often comes with being one of these people.

[EveningStar]

Sally thinks Mercy means you don't do to killers what they did to their victims because that puts the state down on the murderer's level. Betty thinks Mercy means allowing the killer to atone in this life rather than having to pay in the next. Which one is right?

The Book of Mormon says, "If a man sheds blood than his blood must also be shed." The state of Utah, recognizing this, permits use of the firing squad so that people who are desperate to be right with God can choose to suffer in this life rather than the next. In short, the state of Utah considers this form of capital punishment to be more merciful than life in prison in some cases, sparing the murder from the eternal wrath of God.

It is not a simple issue. It never has been.

With that said, if you want to get rid of capital punishment, make the world a saner, more compassionate place. There are several ways this could happen.

1) When people who feel "It's my body, I'll do with it what I please" wake up and stop poisoning themselves with illegal drugs, the market will dry up, as will the gang violence it supports.

2) Bring back the concept of "Sin." Being a fisherman or airplane pilot is a lifestyle choice. Getting aids or dying in a bar brawl is a tragedy.

3) Tell our children we love them, and not just when it's convenient.

4) Return police powers to the people. Every person should be policing themselves. Unless folks believe in common decency, there could never be enough police out there to enforce it.

5) Redefine success. Want a jaguar? Save the rain forest! Want to be a big entertainer? Do a magic act for the children in the cancer ward. Want to have the best home in your neighborhood? Earn the love and respect of your family and forget the house. You'll have the best home, I promise you.

Empty out death row by not filling it in the first place. That doesn't just mean that YOU should not commit capital murder. It also means you try to make your neighborhood a better place where others won't. It means not contributing to the causes, even indirectly.

[Solya]

It's hard to discuss matters like this because there's simply so many factors to consider. :) One case is never the same as another... no two murderers are exactly alike, no reason for murder is ever totally the same... so every decision for capital punishment is different as well.

I live in a country where they don't allow capital punishment. Personally, I tend to agree with that decision. I think that it's not up to anyone to decide who lives and who dies. The fact that a murderer does decide this very thing doesn't mean that we have to decide to kill the murderer as well. That makes us not much better than the murderer, in my opinion. Even if this murderer has little to no conscience and doesn't feel sorry about what he/she did... it doesn't justify us killing this person. Nothing ever justifies murder.

But nothing's ever simple. There'll always be exceptions to a rule.

[AnderStor]

But nothing's ever simple. There'll always be exceptions to a rule.

Well, it might just be my opinion, but I CAN'T think of an exception to that rule. People shouldn't be punished with death, ever. Locked up forever if need be, but the moment you kill them, you're hardly better than whatever they were. I wish some people in the government would realize that.

[Señor Puntos]

A human should never take the life of another's. Life is far too rare and precious for it to be snuffed out.

Murder is bad. Capital Punishment is murder. Therefore Capital Punishment is bad. There are no justifications for murder. The Government is just a load of humans, and a human(s) should never take the life of another's. The Government shouldn't be above the law.

There are no exceptions to the rule that murder is bad.



The above might not make much sense, as I have literally just woken up.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

This from a guy who supports abortion.

[Señor Puntos]

This from a guy who supports abortion.
I changed my mind ages ago on that. I just didn't see a fetus as an actual living thing.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Oh - sorry.

[inkspot]

Did any of you who are saying no one should take another life, ever, read John's posts on page one?

ARGUMENT: "A human should never take the life of another's. Life is far too rare and precious for it to be snuffed out."
The law predates the offense. You don't watch Jim kill Sally on Wednesday, make murder punishible by death on Thursday and kill Jim on Friday. In that sense, Jim, knowing that the penalty for capital murder is death, still murdered Sally. In doing so he chose to become vulnerable to the consequences. NO WESTERN SOCIETY THREATENS ORDINARY PEOPLE WITH DEATH. YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE IT. Like a debt owed a bank it is something you sign for, undertake voluntarily. You speed through a 30 KPH zone hoping you won't get a ticket, but when you DO get pulled over it is for something you volunteered to do knowing that might happen.
When a person has committed a capital offense, it is not you and I who put them to death: they chose to commit the offense, knowing that it was punishable by death. They chose the death sentence; we did not give it to them.

ARGUMENT: "People shouldn't be punished with death, ever. Locked up forever if need be, but the moment you kill them, you're hardly better than whatever they were."
My answer is that now (as then), the goal of law enforcement is to prevent crime rather than to punish offenders. However some people's desire to offend makes them fly in the face of all moral and logistical barriers and act with fatal determination. Because morals and forethought did not prevent their behavior, society provides an alternative form of conscience...a loss of privilege such as confinement or (in extremis) capital punishment.

Such behavior merits an appropriate punishment. I cannot say that death is always the right answer, but I also cannot argue on Biblical grounds that it is never the right answer.

For me, I don't believe much in capital punishment, but I don't think we can equate it with murder, in any way. I believe in second chances, and third and fourth and fifth ones, and in God's power to transform anyone. And I agree with IM that there are tricky situations with the people who are on death row, who might be innocent, who might not be there if not for the color of their skin ... so I don't support it, but I don't think it is murder, either. It is more like society's self-defense.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

There's another factor to consider: the theory of locking someone up forever sounds good, but it doesn't actually work. People get out of prison, can escape, or whatever. Then, if they murder again, does not society (or at least those who consider capital punishment the same thing as murder) bear some responsibility for the second death? It would not have happened if the murderer had been executed.

[QA48]

Not to mention that the killers are likely to commit the same crime again, and the fact that in order to keep them in prison will cost the taxpayers more money than the average person wins in a year.

[LifeMaiden]

I think I also mentioned that even though someone might be in prison for 'life', I've seen examples where people who have committed horrendous acts are spending all that time in prison enjoying themselves...favors from the guards, being able to go outside, writing letters, watching tv...so saying someone should 'rot in prison for life' might not be all that accurate.


" Killing" someone who has committed a grave and serious offense is not necessarily murder to me, because that person isn't innocent like an unborn child. As is "killing" someone in self defense, or in times of war if you are a soldier, is not 'murder'.


But what do we do about the people on death row who MIGHT be innocent ( and some have been proven as such?) and about the fact that we also know the justice systems sends far more black men to death row than white men for the same crimes?

[inkspot]

Those are good questions, IM, and part of the reason I don't support capital punishment. I don't think it is murder, but I would hate for someone to be unjustly executed ...

[Samwise Gamgee]

I think if they are a really really really bad criminal like for insentse: murder some one and then kidnaped and then murder again, I say that person should be under capital punishment for sure.

[LifeMaiden]

There was the case, for example, of the woman in Texas who had given her life to God and repented for killing those two people with an icepick. However, the question is...when someone repents, should this mean that it lessens the crime they committed? The lives of the two victims could never be bought back no matter how much that woman repented. She was put to death anyways. Personally, if I was the relative of a victim of murder, I'm not sure I would want to sit there and watch this person get executed or say " Well I hope you die for killing my beloved ones".


As hard as it is to forgive, that is what we are called to do. It doesn't mean you condone the crime or hate the person who did the thing...but I am again, not sure if it execution is the right answer either.

[Lawrence]

I think John Paul II in Evangelium Vitae summed up capital punishment very nicely by saying that it is a punishment that should be reserved for only the gravest offenders when society cannot be protected in anyother way. If, for example, you had a serial killer who, after being incarcerated, escaped and killed again. Obviously, prison will not work for a very, very select few. However, given the high technological level of our penal system, the probability of that is in effect very low so executions are rendered essentially unneccesary in Roman Catholic social teaching as I understand it.

Basically, God gives life and only God can take it away. John Paul II, quoting the Gospel of St. John fairly extensively, seems to be saying that the gospel of life contained therein would trump what Paul had to say in Romans about government using "the sword".

Pax,
L

[inkspot]

Good points, Lawrence.

I think the woman in Texas LM references, said publicly that she understood although God had forgiven her, the state still required for there to be consequences to what she had done ... I suppose if you nullified harsher punishments for those who came to Christ, everyone would say they had, whether they did or not ...