How close is the Tribulation?

[General Oreius]

I was just curious as to what everyone thought about this topic especially with what is going on in Israel, Iraq, and around the world for that matter. There are some interesting things going on in the world that could be important in regards to the beginning of the Tribulation. Please note that at least I will be mentioning what prophets have been saying if that aspect should arise, so if this thread should be moved please let me know since it does have a mostly Christian/Spiritual theme.

One thing I saw last night that sent chills down my spine was a piece of news regarding the U.N. peacekeeping force in Lebanon. Israel apparently wants Italy to take charge of the force instead of France. I don't like this idea because of the possibility that the Antichrist will be headquartered in Rome, possibly the Vatican. I don't really necessarily believe that part wholeheartedly, but the aspect that Israel WANTS Italy to take charge is just a little too close for comfort. Especially since, I believe, Italy is a little more involved in the European Union than France who is more United Nations.

[EveningStar]

While your concerns are valid, if I were selling life insurance I'd give you very cheap rates on an "In Case of Rapture" policy because your chances of dying of almost ANY OTHER CAUSE including earthquake, lightning strike, and allergy to peanuts is greater than that of ending up being caught with your pants down at the end of time.

That's not to say it won't/can't happen, only that if that's what's frightening you, your priorities could use some adjustment.

The fact that you are going to die of SOMETHING, EVENTUALLY is pretty much sewed up. But if your faith in God is an ongoing thing, and not something you rush to do when you see someone running after you with a hatchet, your paradise starts right here, your freedom begins now, and nobody including the Antichrist himself can take that from you. Or as the hymnist put it so eloquently:

Our fathers locked in prisons dark
Were still in heart and conscience free
How sweet would be their childrens' faith
If they, like them, could die for Thee!
Faith of our fathers, holy faith,
We will be true to thee till death!

[Neevil]

I can't say that the thought hasn't crossed my mind. However, there has always been fighting in the Middle East... ever since Abraham had that little mishap with Hagar. But is this the begining of the end? I don't know. No one does, only the Father.

[Narborg]

Jesus said that no one knows the time, not even him, only God the father. There is a lot of speclation going around as to how end times proplicy shoude be interpreded, but it not nessasery acretae.

[General Oreius]

You are right about no one knowing when exactly the world will end, but there are many things happening today that indicate that the time is near. For instance, about a year to two years ago, (Those who live in Europe have most likely heard of this) the European Union put up a constitution for approval that would provide for a leader of the EU and a cabinet of TEN advisors. I saw this piece on BBC World News (On PBS), and my jaw dropped open and would not shut. This was coming directly out of Revelation 13:1. "Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name." In other words this is describing what I believe to be the Antichrist and his ten rulers.

While thankfully the constitution was not approved of ( It did not pass in countries like France, The Netherlands, and others), the fact that it even came up is enough to be scary. From then up until now I try to keep to date with happenings in Europe and around the world for that matter. We have Mozilla Firefox, and it gives us the latest headlines from BBC strangely enough. And that has allowed me to keep up with pieces of news that don't make onto the American broadcasts.

[Narborg]

You are right about no one knowing when exactly the world will end, but there are many things happening today that indicate that the time is near. For instance, about a year to two years ago, (Those who live in Europe have most likely heard of this) the European Union put up a constitution for approval that would provide for a leader of the EU and a cabinet of TEN advisors. I saw this piece on BBC World News (On PBS), and my jaw dropped open and would not shut. This was coming directly out of Revelation 13:1. "Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name." In other words this is describing what I believe to be the Antichrist and his ten rulers.

While thankfully the constitution was not approved of ( It did not pass in countries like France, The Netherlands, and others), the fact that it even came up is enough to be scary. From then up until now I try to keep to date with happenings in Europe and around the world for that matter. We have Mozilla Firefox, and it gives us the latest headlines from BBC strangely enough. And that has allowed me to keep up with pieces of news that don't make onto the American broadcasts.


Thats one interpatation of the scripture. But I dosent neassaery maen thats what it is saying. There have proabaly bean lots of greoups in the last 2000 years which had one big leader and 10 other leaders. Every genaration of chrisatns, including the 1st genarartion has thoght that Jesus was about to retern. The Bible says he can retern at anytime. He may retern today or in 10000 years time. When it says " be ready" it means that we should saty foced on living a life which is consistent with what the Bible teachs, which is best sumed up by loving Gd and loving others. These no point scaering ourselfs by interationg evry bad thing which hapens as a end times sign, as these have bean bad stuff hapening ever since the full. Insted we shoud be prayer fro the selvation of others and active contiution to the spreded of the gosbel, rather than trying to figger out somthing Jesus himself didn't know.

[LifeMaiden]

I for one hope the end is not near. And that's because I feel I haven't done enough good in this world...there's so much more to do for all Christians.

[TimmyofOz]

It is always one day closer than it was yesterday. :) Remember the Second coming of Christ is the Great Hope for all Christians.

[PrinceOfTheWest]

That's the right perspective! And another thing not to forget: regardless of when Christ returns and draws a close to time, each of us have our own personal parousia - death. That could come at any time, too. Be ever vigilant, and keep your lamps lit and your oil topped off!

[Wendygirljp]

Personally, as I may have stated before somewhere else, this concept of the "second coming" may be symbolic/metaphor, for the time when we die, individually. It may not be a global event, but personal.

Some look for signs - as one minister started claiming that earthquake activity is increasing dramatically, as is prophecized in Revelation - This minister even claimed to use numbers from the U.S. Geologic Survey (USGS). That is rather humorous, as the numbers at USGS sync well with what is at CalTech, which states that the number of major earthquakes is average to slightly low, not increased.

Yes, there was a tsunami which killed many people last year - They happen - both tsunami and causal earthquakes. The one earthquake which would show a big religious event as it killed more than 820,000 people would have been in China in the early 1500s.

The Black Plague would be another event - but how many hundreds of years ago was that? A few million died there.

I believe personally that the only reason why it sounds as if there are more "events" which show the coming to any end is that we have global communication - instant news - so any little event which was not known about for days, weeks, or possibly never, is now on every television and radio station within minutes.

The same goes with this instant communications bit that rumor tends to fly just that much quicker, too.

Who was it who said "go with a pure heart . . . "? Spreading rumors, being bogged down with the emotionalism of various news media does not seem to subscribe to keeping this concept of a pure heart.

And again, as I have probably said before, I could be wrong. The situation, however, is that while some may speculate that I am wrong, there is nothing empirical to say I am, and nor the other way around. So, speculate away, folks. Please just do it with the "pure heart".

[Parthian King]

There is no doubt everyone needs to realize, amid all the speculation and date setting (which is almost completely unbiblical) that for everyone there will be a day of reckoning within a very short time, relatively speaking. Those who live ready for the Second Coming will be ready for that day, however and whenever it comes.

But as a matter of pure doctrine (and I won't go into quotes), there is no "metaphorizing" the concept of the Second Coming: First century Jews (the first Christian believers, and those who framed its eschatology) simply did not think that way. It is abundantly clear that Jesus, Paul, Peter, Luke, John, and the rest of the NT writers believed and taught a physical coming and consummation. John's apocalypse is highly symbolic, it is true, but his message in the end is consistent with the rest of the NT: Jesus will come back just as He departed and physically reign here (Acts 1). Not only so, but an even cursory reading of the patristic sources (early church fathers) reveals that they in no way soft-pedaled the expectation of the parousia with talk of "metaphors"--they lived in the hope of seeing Jesus face to face at His coming (even if they were disappointed that He had other plans, viz. us). Now, it is possible that within a generation of the writing of NT all hermeneutical direction was lost, and now we enlightened moderns can finally understand the Jesus in NT in a way that such benighted fellows such as Justin Martyr and Irenaeus simply couldn't. But then again, a lot of things are possible. The question is, is that probable? I would contend that it is not.

Of course, for non-Christians the whole thing is poppycock anyway. For Christians, though, there is no softening the direct language of the teaching--which contains both assurance and warning--concerning the coming of our Lord.

[Narborg]

I for one hope the end is not near. And that's because I feel I haven't done enough good in this world...there's so much more to do for all Christians.



I second that. I feel like there is so much more to do that I hope that its still a few years way, althoght I also cant want for it to hapen.

[General Oreius]

I like your point, Parthian King. And IceMaiden, I do hope also that the end will not come since there is so much Christians can and must do, but there are three things that my pastor says are a sign that the end is getting very near.

First, when the disciples asked Jesus what the sign would be of His second coming, Jesus said in Matthew 24 starting at v. 6, "And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. v. 7: For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. v. 12: And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold." Jesus also talked about the false prophets that would come, and the betrayals, and the tribulation and martyrdom that will come.

A second thing my pastor says is a sign of the end is that the days will grow shorter and shorter. I don't know about you guys, but the days are TOO SHORT for me. Time flies no matter what you're doing, especially if you're having fun (But that part is also life). Also, the end time will be near when, I believe this is correct, every person in the world has heard the message of Jesus Christ. I don't believe that it's happened YET, but it is definitely possible. Of course I could have heard that incorrectly, but the other two points come right from the Bible.

Of course it could take years for everything to take place, but until then I am going to do what the Bible says and what POTW said. Keep watch and be ready for Him, and until then I'll probably continue to speculate when the Tribulation will start. Of course hopefully we'll be out of here by then.

[LifeMaiden]

I personally do not think the end is near, although some signs might be there. And I doubt most Christians on this forum think that the end is very near. No one can really say for sure, however...so the best thing to do is just to be ready for it. ;)

[Aravis Kenobi]

I don't want to sound rude, but isn't this exactly like the one I made on the second page? And, Wendygirljp, do you have to always explain Christianity and the things in it away? I don't see it as symbolic, and I hope other true Christians don't either.

[General Oreius]

Aravis, my original intention was to discuss how close the Tribulation was. I believe your original subject is different, although I'm pretty sure yours is what made me want to do this. If I made a mistake and copied off of you, I apologize and I hope there's no hard feelings.

[Wendygirljp]

Aravis,

You posted, "Wendygirljp, do you have to always explain Christianity and the things in it away?"

Someone brought up the question about the tribulation - I just posted my perspective on it. I am not attempting to "debunk" it or explain anything "away". It is just another way one sees it - in this case, the way I see it.

You may not believe it (not that I am attempting to prove anything, anyway), but I respect Christianity and the teachings of Jesus. I just do not see EVERYTHING in it as literal. Some issues, absolutely, and some things, not at all, and with some things, I have absolutely no idea one way or another.

There is another point, rather than just "if you are not for me, you are against me" - sometimes, it can be that there is just another way to see it - reference the Eiffel Tower comparison in another post earlier on.

You posted that you do not see it as symbolic - fine! I support you. I just see it slightly differently than you.

[inkspot]

It's always difficult to figure you out, Wendygirl. As best I can tell, you are the only authority in your own life: what you think is symbolic, is symbolic, and what you think is literal is literal. You don't care that no one agrees with you, because, I assume, you think they are the only authorities in their own lives, and what they think is real, is real for them

However, many of us believers in Christ don't think that way at all. We find it very easy, based on tradition, scholarship and study, to see where Christ was speaking symbolically and where He was speaking literally, and we simply believe Him on both counts, which is obviously what He desired. Why would He have bothered saying anything at all if what He meant was none of what He said could be believed, or all of it could, and it made no difference?

Let us try to use the logic in everyday life which you use on the teachings of Christ.

INKY: If you give me that jacket you're wearing, you can have these shoes of mine.

WG: Ah, yes. You are saying if I walk in your footsteps, you will be warmed by my personality.

INKY: No, I'm offering to trade you these shoes for your jacket.

WG: And then, I will be cushioned from life's bumps and bruises by the inner protection your company give me. The jacket is symbolic of my warm heart, and the shoes are a symbol of your partnership with me.

INKY: No, I really meant to trade the jacket for the shoes ...

While you would have discovered some brilliant symbolism which is right for you (in your worldview) I would be wondering whether or not you wanted to make a real trade in the physical world.

This doesn't work in everyday life, and it doesn't work with the teachings of Jesus. Either you understand Him, or you don't, and it's not difficult to understand Him.

As for the topic -- how soon is the Tribulation? -- I don't find a biblical reason to agree with the timelines about the rapture, the 7 years of tribulation, then second coming. I am more likely to think maybe for the believers in China, the Middle East, Indonesia, and elsewhere where Christians are persecuted, the Tribulation is already here ...

[Aravis Kenobi]

Aravis, my original intention was to discuss how close the Tribulation was. I believe your original subject is different, although I'm pretty sure yours is what made me want to do this. If I made a mistake and copied off of you, I apologize and I hope there's no hard feelings.

It sort of is the same thing, because I asked, is the tribulation coming close because of what's happening in the Middle-east. There's no hard feelings, I was just pointing out that I had a thread on this, but since I haven't read all of the thread yet, it might be different.

[Josh the Jester]

All I could say is that no one knows what is going to happen, only God so we just have to be ready for the second coming of his son, and be aware at all cost for any signs.

[Wendygirljp]

It's always difficult to figure you out, Wendygirl. As best I can tell, you are the only authority in your own life: what you think is symbolic, is symbolic, and what you think is literal is literal. You don't care that no one agrees with you, because, I assume, you think they are the only authorities in their own lives, and what they think is real, is real for them

However, many of us believers in Christ don't think that way at all. We find it very easy, based on tradition, scholarship and study, to see where Christ was speaking symbolically and where He was speaking literally, and we simply believe Him on both counts, which is obviously what He desired. Why would He have bothered saying anything at all if what He meant was none of what He said could be believed, or all of it could, and it made no difference?

While you would have discovered some brilliant symbolism which is right for you (in your worldview) I would be wondering whether or not you wanted to make a real trade in the physical world.

This doesn't work in everyday life, and it doesn't work with the teachings of Jesus. Either you understand Him, or you don't, and it's not difficult to understand Him.

I am sorry you see things the way you do, about me. Nothing could be further from the truth. Maybe you should stop trying to "figure me out".

Your comment of "what I see as symbolic, is", in essence, is not accurate, at all. As I state many times, these are my perspectives. I am not saying ANYONE else is wrong. I do not KNOW whether my view is right or not - it SEEMS to fit - for me. I may be right, I may be wrong - Nobody KNOWS as we have nothing objective to make any empirical statement.

You are right - many Christians do NOT believe that Jesus talked in symbolism or metaphor often - some believe he spoke in literal terms 100%. There are still some who believe that, after his "40 days in the wilderness", that he "rarely" spoke in literal terms. We don't KNOW. We believe what we do! Great!

Is not one's "worldview" how one sees the physical world? Just a definition clarification.

And, with your last statement, I can see how it can work, in its place and time, in daily life. Personally, I find metaphor/symbolism working well with the teachings of Jesus. "Either/or"? There are more than two possibilities.

Again, I respect your position on your beliefs. I respect the fact that you are strong in your convictions. Great! I just happen to disagree with some of them. Disagreement does not lessen the value, imho.

And again, I am not attacking you in these postings - people make comments and, as I thought the purpose of these boards are to make comments, including how we perceive these issues, I post mine. Or, do you believe that, one should only post if one "agrees with everything everyone else thinks"?

My life works well for me. Your life works for you. We both believe we are on our correct path. Maybe we are.

[General Oreius]

I don't want to break away from what is currently being discussed here, but I am curious about a few things that might or might not have anything to do with the Tribulation.

What do you think of the European Union overall, their power, and the fact that most of Europe uses their currency the Euro-dollar? Those who live in Europe please answer because that's something I've always wondered about is what the Europeans think of the Euro.

[Solya]

What do you think of the European Union overall, their power, and the fact that most of Europe uses their currency the Euro-dollar? Those who live in Europe please answer because that's something I've always wondered about is what the Europeans think of the Euro.

The European Union is a great thing. It ties our countries closer together, makes it easier to travel and work in other countries and overall I do love the idea behind it. However, I do not agree with the already failed plan to make one European constitution and I am also not happy with the Euro (not Euro-dollar, just Euro). The problem within the Union at this moment is that there's a big difference between the welfare of this country and another. Therefore, we cannot unite under one single constitution. Also, the fact that things such as our armies and the national security would change if we tied Europe together with a constitution really had me fired up. I love unity, but I also love the differences between one country and another. Europe simply isn't made for a total union which comes through a constitution and one single big government which overrules the government in our own country whenever it pleases.

And the thing with the Euro... many Dutch people are unhappy with it. There's a lot of people here who just want our old currency back. The only advantage I have ever seen in it is that we are able to pay with the same sort of money nearly everywhere in Europe. For the rest, everything's just gotten more expensive since the Euro and it provided us with bigger economic problems than we would have had if we had not accepted the Euro. I'm not a big fan of it. ;)

As to where and how it possibly ties into Tribulation... I do not know. I do hope that I've provided you with one of the many views on Europe and its Union in an understandable way. ;) Maybe someone else has a different view entirely, though, so it's always best to wait until multiple people have posted their opinions on the matter.

[Narborg]

I don't want to break away from what is currently being discussed here, but I am curious about a few things that might or might not have anything to do with the Tribulation.

What do you think of the European Union overall, their power, and the fact that most of Europe uses their currency the Euro-dollar? Those who live in Europe please answer because that's something I've always wondered about is what the Europeans think of the Euro.


I think that is is nonsece to that that the EU or Un are going to be what the anit christ will use as a power plaforem and that christans could opse then. He could , but this dose not mean that we should opsse all the work they do. He could also use other power sturtres, such as any sate in the world, but dose this meant that we should get ride of states and have anarchy, no,we should not. The EU and UN do a lot of good work, whihc we as chrisdtans should suport.