Lebanon Israel conflict

[Bilbo]

What do you think about current event in the Near East? How long will this conflict be lasting? Are you for or against Israel's position?

[inkspot]

I may close this thread -- I think it may be a bit divisive even for Narnia Fans. It is open for now, but if it gets the least bit ugly, I will delete it. This is a family sight, and we do not bicker angrily with each other, okay?

Thanks!

[Swimfan1918]

What do you think about current event in the Near East? How long will this conflict be lasting? Are you for or against Israel's position?


Im for Israel's position, i have family there and a cousin whos in the army(thankfully hes home safe now but he has to go back in 2 weeks.) I really dont know how long this will last. who knows? There may even be a WW3. All thats been going on has been devestating to both countries. Im more of the anti-war type of person but i guess war is good for the economy or something. which i kind of disagree with because look at lebanon, its being destroyed, hezbollah has tooken over and have gotten more ppl to support them.

[EveningStar]

What people don't understand is that large numbers of both Jews and Muslims believe God gave them sole title to the same piece of land.

Such a dispute could only truly and completely be settled if all of one religion converted to the other, or if both Judiasm and Islam gave up all claims of entitlement.

Ultimately the only way there will be peace in Israel is when the modern nation state called Israel stops considering itself the spiritual heir of the Davidic royal house and agrees to create a secular state like Egypt in which people of all faiths can live together and all feel like they are where God wants them to be.

The chances of this happening are practically zero. About where my hope for a peace settlement for all times is.

John B.

[Saruman]

I support the nation of Israel completely, based on what the Word of the God, the Bible, has to say regarding the present situations in the Middle East.

In the Word of God we learn and understand that the land of Israel was, divinely, given to the children of Israel, to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Though the people were scattered all throughout the world, Ezekiel prophesied that Israel would become a nation once again (cf. Ezk. 36-37). In May 1948, this became reality.

I believe that the only lasting solution for peace in the Middle East is the return of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Messiah. All the same, I shall continue to pray for the Peace of Jerusalem. I am in prayer for the children of Israel. :)

[EveningStar]

As a Christian I derive my spiritual heritage from Judiasm. Yet I believe that Jesus came as the fulfillment to the messianic prophesies while most Jews do not. That means the new Israel for me is the Body of Christ, the kingdom that Christ himself claimed was "not of this world." A heavenly kingdom for which Christ suffered and died and was resurrected on the third day.

Whatever the Bible may or may not say about the sons of Abraham having a place to live, it is not the Davidic Kingdom for only Jesus holds the orb and scepter now. And I feel that displaced Palestinians should be allowed to come home and be full citizens. The Bible also says "Thou Shalt Not Steal."

[bianca_narnia]

us filipinos were part of that -- the overseas filipino workers (OFW) were trapped there because their masters confiscated their passports so they can't get out of the country. this problem was solved last week and the OFWs came home last wednesday.

[Solya]

I support no one. I think they're all wrong in what they do and therefore I'm not for or against Israel's position. This conflict has lasted for as long as I can remember and lately things turned ugly when Israel and Libanon started throwing bombs at each other. :rolleyes: There are so many different paths to take and yet they all choose the path of war because it is an important religious site to many of them. I wonder how they can still justify their behaviour when, according to their beliefs, they should not kill another human being.

Israel used to be the heir of the Davidic royal house. This doesn't mean that it should still hold this status today. Religion is something people can never agree on because everyone believes differently, and so they should choose another way of being God's nation on Earth. I think God would be more pleased if every religion was allowed in Israel and if the people there stopped bickering about who owns what and why. There will be no peace for as long as every side believes that they do the work of God by attacking innocent people and destroying so many beautiful buildings. They act in the name of God, and I wonder where they got that particular idea from when acting in God's name has always meant pacifism and love before.

I have no love for war. They may do as they wish with their "Kingdom". I just hate to see these things destroyed because the tolerance level has reached a point below zero. I hate to see all those people die in the name of religion. This ought to stop, but I fear it never will.

[Queen Swanwhite]

I don't know that much about the whole thing. As long as they stop fighting soon, I will be happy. I am deeply saddened by the whole incident, but there is nothing I can do apart from pray, which what I am doing. :)

[Parthian King]

EveningStar, I like your nuanced approach. One of the biggest problems for me when discussing this issue is that so many (especially in the Christian community) resort to archetypes without understanding the complexities and the history behind the matter. To cast one side as all terrorist (or victim) and/or the other as entirely benevolent (or oppressor) is simplistic and damaging.

I do think there should be a distinction between Hezbollah--a relatively recent paramilitary terrorist group built up by Iran since their Isalmic revolution in 1979--and the Palestinian issue. The thread addresses more the Hezbollah issue than the Palestinian in title, but crossover is virtually impossible.

I don't buy into Dispensationalism, and so I don't see direct continuity between the ancient theocratic monarchy of Israel and Judah and modern secular Israel. Besides, if God were to sanction the unconditional approval of everything Israel did now because "they are the chosen people," that'd be more than He ever granted through the prophets. Jeremiah railed against that very attitude, warning them that it was their behavior and attitude towards God that was sending them into exile, and thinking they were getting a "by" was getting them into a situation of saying goodbye to their precious land and Temple. Many, many in modern Israel are atheist, Israel has anti-evangelism/conversion laws in place, and Tel Aviv has a jumping nightlife that can run with what goes on in South Beach or L.A. As for the topic, Israel can be high-handed and harsh in it's approach towards Arabs and Palestinians in particular.

That said, Israel is a true Western democracy that allows civil freedoms and dissent in a way nobody else really does in the Middle East. I believe it basically stands for order and civilization as we know it. Israel is fighting for its life in a very hostile environment, and that is part of the motivation for its harshness.

As for the Palestinians, it is important to remember that they are loved by God, too, and Christ died for them, too. Many are in fact Christians, even if the majority are Muslims (these Christian brothers wonder why American Christians are so cozy with their oppressors, while viewing them--fellow Christians--as evil simply because they are Arabs in the Middle East!). They have been displaced by the fates of history, which has more to do with decisions between Western powers after World War 1 than with the Jews, though they can't express that. They are the outcasts of the Arab world who are cynically used by their "brothers" to attack the Israelis. (I read a recent Arab work that stated sadly that Syria would be more than willing to fight to the last Palestinian.) These people have also been terribly oppressed by corrupt leaders who have sifted millions in aid to enrich themselves, while leaving the Palestinain people destitue. They deserve our prayers and compassion.

At the same time, terrorist tactics used by many against Israel are immoral and a losing game. There is a group called Arabs for Israel (http://www.arabsforisrael.com/) that basically says the problem is Arabs need to accept Israel's right to exist. If that would happen, all else would fall in place, and Western pressure on Israel to be more just would carry weight. But while suicide bombers threaten, and rockets rain on Israel--even after Israel pulls out of occupied lands--those pleas carry no teeth.

Maranatha, oh Prince of Peace. You are the only one who can calm this raging sea of war.

[EveningStar]

PK, I think we agree more than we disagree. And I appreciate your nuanced response to my nuanced response. ;)

God bless you.

John

[TimmyofOz]

The only claim the Mohammedans have for Jerusalem is that supposedly Mohammed's ghost visited it on the way to paradise. The Jews at least have actual history and the Word of God . I sticking with JWHW and His Word over Allah and the Koran. :)

[EveningStar]

It is only enough that both sides BELIEVE that God promised them that land for there to be a conflict, a war. It's a shame that people have religious beliefs that require a victory over others. As a Christian I prize most highly the victory over the self. Wherever I go to do God's will, that is the holy land. Wherever I go to sin is the wilderness of bitter wandering. If more people felt that way, the entire Earth could be the Holy Land, not just Israel.

John

[Narborg]

Its a difcult situation to sole and we need to consied the hisoty and religon which is invovede. I do sinthisis with Isral, it must be hard to like in a contry which is sarunded by people who want to wip you of the face of the earth 9 in Nz were aened by water ) And historcally, its always bean Israel who have made the comramises. On the other hand, there not winning much suport amust Arab people and are only crating more emaies.ay for prece, but givein all that, it willl take a lot for that to hapen.

[Apple_Of_Life29]

The only claim the Mohammedans have for Jerusalem is that supposedly Mohammed's ghost visited it on the way to paradise. The Jews at least have actual history and the Word of God . I sticking with JWHW and His Word over Allah and the Koran. :)

By the way, it is Muslim, not Mohammedan. That is a word that was made up recently. And also, we believe that the Quran is a word of God(or Allah) too...

[TimmyofOz]

By the way, it is Muslim, not Mohammedan. That is a word that was made up recently. And also, we believe that the Quran is a word of God(or Allah) too...
Well I have been over this before. This site is dedicated to C.S. Lewis and in his writtings he used the term "Mohammedans" (Mere Christianity, Book II, Chapter 1, 2nd paragragh). And I also hold Lewis over Mohammed. :)

[TimmyofOz]

It is only enough that both sides BELIEVE that God promised them that land for there to be a conflict, a war. It's a shame that people have religious beliefs that require a victory over others. As a Christian I prize most highly the victory over the self. Wherever I go to do God's will, that is the holy land. Wherever I go to sin is the wilderness of bitter wandering. If more people felt that way, the entire Earth could be the Holy Land, not just Israel.

John

If God is going to break His promise to Israel and the Jews, how do I know He will keep His promise to me by the death of Christ. Both promises are in the same Bible. I am going to believe the entire Bible and not wait till you tell me which promises of God did God really believe. :)

[Apple_Of_Life29]

Well I have been over this before. This site is dedicated to C.S. Lewis and in his writtings he used the term "Mohammedans" (Mere Christianity, Book II, Chapter 1, 2nd paragragh). And I also hold Lewis over Mohammed. :)


well...okay...go ahead...but just so you know, we dont like to associate ourselves with a person as our name...(Mohammed=Mohammedans, Budha=Budhism...) because it makes us seem we're worshipping the person, when in fact, we're worshipping God...

[TimmyofOz]

well...okay...go ahead...but just so you know, we dont like to associate ourselves with a person as our name...(Mohammed=Mohammedans, Budha=Budhism...) because it makes us seem we're worshipping the person, when in fact, we're worshipping God...

I'm a Christian, and I do worship Jesus Christ, because He is God. Equal to God the Father and above all other names (Allah). We are different and I pray that one day you will see the Jesus is worthy of your worship also. :)

[Solya]

It is only enough that both sides BELIEVE that God promised them that land for there to be a conflict, a war. It's a shame that people have religious beliefs that require a victory over others. As a Christian I prize most highly the victory over the self. Wherever I go to do God's will, that is the holy land. Wherever I go to sin is the wilderness of bitter wandering. If more people felt that way, the entire Earth could be the Holy Land, not just Israel.

Wise words, and entirely true. :) I feel exactly the same way... which is why I don't really understand why they keep holding on to the symbolics Israel is for them all instead of trying to create a better world wherever their feet take them.

[echoscot]

PK, what a spectacular statement about the situation. I really like how you phrased that. I have been reading a book called "Light Force: A stirring account of the Church caught in the Middle East crossfire." It is by Brother Andrew, of God's Smuggler fame. He was responsible for smuggling Bibles behind Communist lines. For the last 20-30 years he has been traveling to Lebanon, even during their awful Civil War trying to work with the different Christian and Muslim factions. He even recounts a visit with the Imam who headed Hezbollah. I really have had to come to grips with altering some of my views about the problems there as I have read this book and anyone interested in an inside account of a brave young dutchman who has entered dangerous territory to be a Light and a Hope, should really read this book.

[Narborg]

I think whay Brother Andrew dose is awesome. If the situation is going to change, people like the leaders of Hezbolah need to came into contact and be changed by the love of Jesus.

[echoscot]

I understand that Narnia is christian based and i have no problem with that and even though im not muslim, i feel a little offended with what you guys are saying. There are different religions because of different beliefs. You cant just tell someone that your way is better than theirs and tell them to follow it and find love in Jesus.

Some peoples ways are too extreme meaning suicide bombers and people who get involved with war just for the sake of it. Thats wrong. But i think we need to accept each others beliefs (excluding killing someone because of who they are.)

Sorry if i made this a little confusing or sounded too harsh, im not mad i just found it a little offensive when people were saying Hezbollah should find their way with Jesus or something like that.

What you just posted is actually no different than what you are criticizing. You do realize that, right? I mean you are saying that Christians have no right to tell others what they think, or believe, but you apparently have the right to tell Christians what you think. Seems a bit hypocritical to me. Unless I am misreading something. If I believe that Jesus is the answer to some of life's problems, then who are you to tell me I can't say that? You don't have to believe it, nobody is holding a gun to your head and making you believe that. What if I said Sabal Palms are the answer and if Hezbollah (there are two "l"s in that) planted some that would help them a lot. Would you be offended? No, you might think it ridiculous, but offensive no. But let someone say "Jesus is the answer" and whoo boy! Everyone gets offended. If you actually read the book I mentioned you would find that the Muslims in question did not take offense at the author's suggestion at all. They looked at it from a purely academic standpoint. And he suggested to their very faces the thing you are claiming offense on their behalf.

[echoscot]

By the way, it is Muslim, not Mohammedan. That is a word that was made up recently. And also, we believe that the Quran is a word of God(or Allah) too...

I know that sometimes people come across pretty harsh, sometimes, but the term Mohammedan has been around for some time. If you find that offensive, I for one will certainly try to use Muslim or Islamic, is that a fair word to use?

[EveningStar]

Before this discussion gets out of hand, let's draw back and examine the real issue. This is not a question of whose religion is right. We all have an opinion on that. This is a question of whose methods are right. Namely, is it right to impose Sharia, Mosaic Law, or any other theocratic regimen on a nation by force of arms? And can one do the will of God using terror?

No and no.

ES

[echoscot]

Very well put, Evening Star. I ask the same questions. I do not think the use of arms will win any one faith over. Both sides of this particular battle have tried to use force to gain the upper hand. Israel, though, certainly has a right to defend itself from terrorist attack and make strikes to end further attacks.

[Apple_Of_Life29]

I know that sometimes people come across pretty harsh, sometimes, but the term Mohammedan has been around for some time. If you find that offensive, I for one will certainly try to use Muslim or Islamic, is that a fair word to use?


Thanks for the consideration :) . i wasnt sure if he knew that it was Muslim or Mohammedan....but like i said before, we like to associate(worship) ourselves with God, not the Prophet(pbuh).

And finding strength in Jesus...well...they have their beliefs all out of proportion, so shoudlnt they be taught their religion correctly, instead of beign taught a whole new religion??Just wondering.

[Narborg]

I think you misunderstood the point i was trying to make, and looking at the post, I think I got a bit side tracted. A lot of Muslems still hate christans because of the cresades. This is how they view Christanity and the west. They see Isreal as being hacked by the US and as part of this tradtion. what they need to see is that chrisatnoity is not about killing but about love.

[Apple_Of_Life29]

I think you misunderstood the point i was trying to make, and looking at the post, I think I got a bit side tracted. A lot of Muslems still hate christans because of the cresades. This is how they view Christanity and the west. They see Isreal as being hacked by the US and as part of this tradtion. what they need to see is that chrisatnoity is not about killing but about love.

ummmm...half the Muslims dont even KNOW about the Crusades...well at least over here. Im not sure about in the Middle east or Iraq...but again...theyrea little on the extreme side...again...if you look at Islams teachings, its the same as well. love, not killing. unless its for Jihad, which comes with many specific 'qualifications' so to speak.

[Narborg]

ummmm...half the Muslims dont even KNOW about the Crusades...well at least over here. Im not sure about in the Middle east or Iraq...but again...theyrea little on the extreme side...again...if you look at Islams teachings, its the same as well. love, not killing. unless its for Jihad, which comes with many specific 'qualifications' so to speak.


Maybe the one yove meet havemnnt, but for most to them in the middle east the situation is difrent. Futhermore, you make the point about the Jihard. Wether ot not that they are doing is a lagiamite Jihad acording to the Koran i dont know, but the point is that the people invole defintlly see it as being so.
But I dont think we can cme up with simple expantions. It is a very comlicated situation with a history going back thousands of years. I dont thinik we can fully vblame or exuse ether group.

[Apple_Of_Life29]

Maybe the one yove meet havemnnt, but for most to them in the middle east the situation is difrent. Futhermore, you make the point about the Jihard. Wether ot not that they are doing is a lagiamite Jihad acording to the Koran i dont know, but the point is that the people invole defintlly see it as being so.
But I dont think we can cme up with simple expantions. It is a very comlicated situation with a history going back thousands of years. I dont thinik we can fully vblame or exuse ether group.

Im pretty sure, form what my understanding of Jihad, that is not, definitely not, a legitimate Jihad. Jihad is when you fight in the name of God, when you are oppressed, and only fighting those who fight you. this means that there is no killing of women or children(which is what the bombs are doing), no theft, etc., etc.,.that is what i mean by 'qualifications' or even 'rules'....but i agree that here is no simple explantion...each side is to blame.

[Narborg]

Im pretty sure, form what my understanding of Jihad, that is not, definitely not, a legitimate Jihad. Jihad is when you fight in the name of God, when you are oppressed, and only fighting those who fight you. this means that there is no killing of women or children(which is what the bombs are doing), no theft, etc., etc.,.that is what i mean by 'qualifications' or even 'rules'....but i agree that here is no simple explantion...each side is to blame.


well, since im not a muslem or an expet, I dont thinkthat Im quallifed to say. But I think the point is that the peole invoeld deifientlly see it as being one and they belive that if they die a mayter than they will get into paradise.
personlly, I think being a mayter means that you are killed by other for what you belive which is not what is hapening. There is a lot going on here socliialy and historiaclly, and it is foolish to make hastey judgment based on incomlte information.

[EveningStar]

"Jihad" has been hijacked from Islam by the extremists much as the word "Fundamentalist" was hijacked from Christianity some years ago. And for the same reason...to gain legitimacy for their particular interpretation.

Pretty much they are doing the same thing to Islam. If you ain't killing Israelies, you ain't a "real" Muslim. If you don't reject Israel's right to exist, you're not a "real" Muslim. If your wife's clothes don't weigh more than her body, you're not a "real" Muslim.

ES

[Jood]

I 100% support Israel, all the way. I really hate it how the news picks on Israel for killing ten civilians, when the Hezbollah kill ten Israelites a day. Israel has every right to bomb Lebanon, people shouldn't be pokeing their noses in Israels affairs. The UN, and the USA ave no right to tell Israel what to do. They can give advice, but they shouldn't be commanding Israel.

[onlymystory]

The media may not always be fair but I for one hardly think Israel should be excused for their behavior. And I'm curious as to how Israel has a right to bomb another country. I know back in the old testament God told them it was their Promised Land but I fail to see how that gives them the right to run around killing people. Plus it seems to me that I remember God allowing the Israelites to lose the Promised Land several times due to their lack of faith.
And all that aside, in this recent conflict of the last 50 or so years, I really don't understand why so many people think Israel has an excuse to bomb but that Hezbollah and Hamas and others are evil and depraved. Seems to me that its the Palestinians and Muslims who got forced out of their homes and land by others. Yet we say they are wrong for wanting their homes back. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

[inkspot]

I don't suppose anybody has a right to bomb anybody else. But I do think the Palestinians have been badly treated, not just by Israel, but by their Muslim/Arab brothers in the surrounding nations who refused in the beginning to take them in when Israel was founded (there never having been a "Palestinian" people up to that point), and instead use them as the poster children for Israel annihilation, keeping them poor and downtrodden because it suits a political agenda.

[TimmyofOz]

Im pretty sure, form what my understanding of Jihad, that is not, definitely not, a legitimate Jihad. Jihad is when you fight in the name of God, when you are oppressed, and only fighting those who fight you. this means that there is no killing of women or children(which is what the bombs are doing), no theft, etc., etc.,.that is what i mean by 'qualifications' or even 'rules'....but i agree that here is no simple explantion...each side is to blame.

Jesus taught us to "turn the cheek", and that we are blessed when we are oppressed. There is no real Biblical equivalent of Jihad. :)

[onlymystory]

If you can't reply constructively to the conversation then please don't post.

[umbrellaxscenexcore]

jeez...i said i was only kidding, why are you always so rude to me?i said other stuff u didn't look at that!

[onlymystory]

Nothing was constructive in that post. First, saying things like go lebanon trivialized the discussion. Second, its not really a Lebanon/Israel conflict. Its a Hezbollah/Israel conflict which is slightly different. Third saying those people are stupid is rude and inconsiderate of the long history of grievances and trauma that both sides have gone through. And finally, asking why they are at war really means you haven't done much observing of most of this thread. The entire thing has been discussing why they are at war.

TimmyofOz, I see your point and agree that there is no real equivalent of the Jihad in the Bible. But I would point out that even Jesus didn't always turn the other cheek. The scene in the temple proves that. So I would say there is a time for anger. I don't think that reasoning works in this situation but I just wanted to add that there is a time for action. For argument's sake. :D

[TimmyofOz]

Something weird has happened. While this conflict is going on against Isreal, a 1000 year old copy of the Psalms was dug up in Ireland. It was dug up already opened to Psalms 83. That Psalms discribes how those of Ishmael (Arab Muslims), inhabitants of Tyre (Hezbollal in Lebanon), and Assyria (Syria) will conspire against Israel to take away the land of God from Israel. And the Psalmist asks God to show the world who is the true God (YHWH) over all others (Allah). It is almost as if God opened a page of the bible for the world to see.
link (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/25/ireland.psalms.ap/index.html)