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Ithilien
07-31-2005, 12:02 AM
We all know C. S. Lewis loves allegories so what does the voyage of the Dawn Treader represent?

holyboy
07-31-2005, 12:08 AM
I always thought it was the voyage of a person. The Lone Islands are like the parent teaching the child right and wrong. The Duffer Island was to teach to never judge a book by its cover. The island of dreams was adulthood, where all your worst dreams come true...That's just my thoughts...

rosymole
08-01-2005, 08:59 AM
It's definately a journey of self improvement, from Eustace turning from swine to sweety, almost, to Caspian learning more about himself, Reep fulfilling his dreams etc.
There are also many warnings, as HB said, not jumping intoo quickly, Death Water' and lessona about greed, ther Govenor.

inkspot
08-09-2005, 06:31 PM
I think biblically Lewis compared VDT to the missionary journeys of the apostles...

Inklet
08-17-2005, 04:44 AM
I don't think there is an allegory in the Dawn Treader, I think Lewis had several episodes (which are allegorical) in mind, and there is no better way to string them together than in a sea voyage (see the Odyssey.)

inkspot
08-17-2005, 02:36 PM
Here is what CS lewis himself wrote about the books and what they correspond to in the Bible:

"The whole series works out like this:
*The Magician's Nephew tells the Creation and how evil entered Narnia,
*The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe - the Crucifixion and Resurrection,
*The Horse and His Boy - the calling and conversion of the heathen,
*Prince Caspian - restoration of the true religion after a corruption,
*The Voyage of the Dawn Treader - the spiritual life (especially in Reepicheep),
*The Silver Chair - the continuing war against the powers of darkness,
*The Last Battle - the coming of Antichrist (the ape). The end of the world and the last judgement."

inked
08-17-2005, 06:24 PM
TCON are not allegories!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The author specifically and often denies them to be allegories. See his responses to such in LETTERS TO CHILDREN. He draws the distinction between Bunyan's THE PILGRIM'S PROGRESS and his own THE PILGRIM'S REGRESS as against Narnia and tells the children "I am not writing that way at all." If you don't believe me or the author, check out the books and you'll see the difference.

Now, one may say that TVTDT is a metaphorical presentation of the apostolic period, but it would be better yet to say that in the "supposal" which is Narnia this is what a missionary journey might take the form of. But even that is perhaps too direct a comparison. Think of it is an imaginative journey in the life of a group of believers (in Aslan) who have set about to seek the lost (Lords of Narnia) and deliver them from their distress. It also is a commentary on social values and materialism if you care to go that far! :D

rosymole
08-17-2005, 07:25 PM
Aha Inked we meet again! x ;-)
I have always been told , and have believed because 'Jack' was Xtian that he used CoN as an allegory (as I've read), that the CoN was allegorical especially LWW, and looking at Inkspot's little listy thing I can see it even more..
and now Rosy goes a bit personal.....
HHB was always one of my fave CoN books..and perhaps the reason becomes clear...with my recent 'understanding' of things in the way of Christ etc (not to be flippant) it has even more resonance (sp?) in the way that I have used my past actions and behaviour and I can now relate them to God and Christ (oho would this be Rosy trying to make a pronoucement?!)

Of course Inked you have this platform for your opinions, I would never deny anyone such a place, and I will always respect what you say and take it on board..but perhaps it can be a mixture of both?
I truly think that values we hold in our lives - the way we act we act/behave/believe/ are linked to our spiritualness (is that a word??) are linked to our relationship with God?

I'm not a theologian..I never will be..(i couldn't even finish a history degree!) i just say what my heart guides me to, I take my guidance from what God ..er..guides me too and from my own volition, and if it's wrong then I will take the rap.

(:-) I'm always worried that posts like this come across as agressive, but they never are! I'm a very smiley petrons you know!! :-))

inkspot
08-18-2005, 05:31 PM
I truly think that values we hold in our lives - the way we act we act/behave/believe/ are linked to our spiritualness (is that a word??) are linked to our relationship with God?
Absolutely, I believe the same thing, Rosy! I am such an old-school Christian, I don't even think there is a standard for laws (good and evil) outside of belief in God. But that's another debate. What I wanted to say was: In Horse & His Boy, Shasta could be seen as the Gentiles in the New Testament -- Aslan didn't come to their land (Archenland for Shasta) and complete their prophecies, nevertheless, his message of redemption through love was open to them! Shasta especially can be seen as a symbol of the truly "lost" in a spiritual sense, because he was:
1. An Archenlander when Aslan came for [I]Narnians[I] (as many of us are Gentiles and Christ came for Jews)
2. A slave in Calormene because he had been whisked away from his homeland (as many of us are slaves to the truly unimportant things in life because we cannot recognize the real matters of consequence)

He was as lost, to my mind, as those humans who don't know Christ, don't even no, maybe, that He ever came here and extended His hands of love to them. Yet just as Aslan was at work in Shasta's life to reunited him with his true place in the scheme of things (and with himself, Aslan), Christ can be at work in the life of a non-believer to reunite her with her Savior and her place as a favored child of the King! It's a very thrilling story, really, when you add that spiritual dimension. It's thrilling enough just as a story, but when you see it this way, it becomes accessible, something that can happen or has happened, to me!

Sorry to post all this in VDT thread, but it seemed a good response...

Gibby
08-18-2005, 06:09 PM
I think this book attempts to paint a picture of what a relationship with Christ is about. I especially thought so when Lucy was asking Aslan if she was going to come back to Narnia, and he told her she wasn't. Lucy explained to Aslan that it was him that she wanted to see again, not so much as Narnia. Aslan told Lucy that she would know him in her world by another name (can you say, Jesus?) and by knowing Aslan for a short time in Narnia, they would know him better by his other name in their world by his other name (in a nutshell).

inked
08-19-2005, 05:58 PM
rosymole,

I doubt you could come across as aggressive! :) You seem too polite to ever do that.

As regards TCON and allegory, however, I think we must take the author's word that it is not allegory but a "supposal". And when we compare THE PILGRIM'S REGRESS with TCON we immediately understand the difference Lewis expressed repeatedly, epecially in LETTERS TO CHILDREN in which he expressly disavows that TCON is allegory.

Of course, you are in good company because Tolkien thought them too allegorical. I think Tolkien was objecting to the transparent symbolism Lewis employed. But Lewis' THE ALLEGORY OF LOVE is a study of proper allegory and we must allow that he knew whereof he spoke - better than Tolkien even!

But for clarity of discussion I think we must acknowledge that TCON is not allegory by mere definition. I think symbolic much more correct because it grants greater facility to what Lewis was actually doing. Remember Pullman's critique of Lewis was that he was too concerned with other than this world. Pullman certainly there exposes that Lewis' symbolic representations literally move earth and heaven into closer proximity and part the veil between them. Pullman is particularly and especially desirious of contradicting Lewis, thus his DARK MATERIALS works are mired in materialism and scientism. Pullman apparently sees no further than sexuality and self-fulfillment as the ultimate human goals, whereas Lewis clearly depicts in Narnia his understanding that we humans "are half-hearted creatures fooling around with food and drink and sex" when we are offered "pleasures forevermore, oceans of pleasure" (cf THE SCREWTAPE LETTERS). Obedience to Aslan symbollically brought to fruition in the bachanals under Aslan's direction surely say this better to children than any allegory possibly could - why even the trees have a banquet of delicious dirts! No allegory could encompass that. Nor any materialistically limited mindset! That is why Lewis is considered so dangerous by people who oppose him - any one of those images could get under the skin and thoughts of materialism and turn the world of the materialist upside down! Mere allegory doesn't do that (as the differential sales of THE PILGRIM'S REGRESS versus TCON will readily demonstrate :cool: ).

meraby
09-05-2005, 01:11 PM
Kind of interesting. I merely saw the VDT as a narrative of the Christian life. How Christ changes us. I see some of myself in Caspian, some of myself in Eustace Clarence Scrub (and he almost deserved the name!) and even some of myself in Reepicheep.

It is hard to be purely allegorical with any of these books, since C.S. Lewis created a world where Christian theology does not apply. There is no original sin by the original inhabitants of Narnia. Therefore, the death and Resurrection of Aslan was not for the world of Narnia, but for one boy. Thus, the entire theology is different.

However, there is loose representation in all of the books. In VDT, it is very easy to see it in some places. In others, there is just a storyline. In all, we should read through VDT as Lewis telling us about how Christ has interacted with Narnians and led Narnians through a journey. Even when dealing with Eustace, it is in the terms of Narnia.

However, we will see the similarities to the Christian walk because the foundational truth to the CoN is that Aslan is not a representation of Christ, but IS Christ incarnate in another world. C.S. Lewis recognized the truth that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever!!

BTW.. Rosy.. If I read your post correctly... welcome to the family.

unleavened
09-05-2005, 02:12 PM
Absolutely, I believe the same thing, Rosy! I am such an old-school Christian, I don't even think there is a standard for laws (good and evil) outside of belief in God. But that's another debate. What I wanted to say was: In Horse & His Boy, Shasta could be seen as the Gentiles in the New Testament -- Aslan didn't come to their land (Archenland for Shasta) and complete their prophecies, nevertheless, his message of redemption through love was open to them! Shasta especially can be seen as a symbol of the truly "lost" in a spiritual sense, because he was:
1. An Archenlander when Aslan came for [I]Narnians[I] (as many of us are Gentiles and Christ came for Jews)
2. A slave in Calormene because he had been whisked away from his homeland (as many of us are slaves to the truly unimportant things in life because we cannot recognize the real matters of consequence)

He was as lost, to my mind, as those humans who don't know Christ, don't even no, maybe, that He ever came here and extended His hands of love to them. Yet just as Aslan was at work in Shasta's life to reunited him with his true place in the scheme of things (and with himself, Aslan), Christ can be at work in the life of a non-believer to reunite her with her Savior and her place as a favored child of the King! It's a very thrilling story, really, when you add that spiritual dimension. It's thrilling enough just as a story, but when you see it this way, it becomes accessible, something that can happen or has happened, to me!
I love it Inkspot! Well said.

inkspot
09-05-2005, 05:01 PM
Thanx! I'm so passionate, huh? :o

unleavened
09-05-2005, 05:13 PM
Lol, That's a good thing. It reminds me of something I might write, only better :D .

tumnus
10-07-2005, 09:25 PM
the metaphor for me in this wonderful book has become more political than religious, just in terms of what i can glean for my own understanding

i see Narnia at this point as symbolising England, and Caspian's journey as a mission to restore order to the British Empire, overthrowing Gumpas along the way

like Star Trek (and presumably other earlier science fiction), to teach the world the values of middle class protestantism, the work ethic and the joys of capitalism

this is a very simplistic interpretation because there is so much spritual stuff in there as well, but that has been well established in this thread already

just another perspective

tumnus

Aslan the Wise one
10-07-2005, 09:32 PM
I must agree with inkspot on this one...

tumnus
10-07-2005, 09:56 PM
me too, didn't mean to sound as if i disagreed with anyone

tumnus

inkspot
10-17-2005, 12:48 PM
Your view is well thought out and presented, Tumnus. I think both our views can be right! :)